General Debate 16 October 2023

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NeverMindTheBollocks

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Israel is losing in Gaza. Their grief and fury are understandable, but it reminds me of American ventures in the Middle East: you win the military conflict, and then what? Millions of Palestinians aren’t going anywhere; not even the other Arab countries want them.

There’s an Old Testament story that will also appear in the Torah, concerning Lot. God wants to destroy a town because they’re all evil there. Lot bargains with God, asking God to spare the town if he can find 100 good people there. God relents, on that condition. Lot can’t find 100, so bargains down to 50, and so on. Eventually, God agrees to spare the town if Lot can find just one good man.

Strategic victory comes from hearts and minds. Not all Palestinians are members of Hamas. Better to strengthen them.
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October 16, 2023 8:01am
- mandk
  
  You’ve got that wrong.
  
  God only spared the town until the just people were able to leave. Then he destroyed the town.
  
  Just like the Israelis are doing on the northern end of Gaza perhaps. Not like the Israelis can be compared to God.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:38am
- All_on_Red
  
  Israel is not losing in Gaza
  They have hardly started so stop talking rubbish
  Israel has tried appeasement and it hasn’t worked
  Gazans and Hamas want to wipe Israel out- according to their own Charter, words and actions
  Israel should turn it into a Wasteland and call it peace
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:51am
  - kowtow
    
    The problem is urban warfare . The costs to the attcker will be huge.
    
    Netanyahu took his eye off the ball re Gaza and Hamas .
    It seems politically his focus has been the West Bank . 3 battalions were moved there recently leaving the south open to that attack.
    
    Now to show he’s the security expert he’s going to kill and injure thousands of Israeli servicemen in a show of force that will probably not get the hostages back.
    
    He lost the lesson of the price of peace being eternal vigilance .
    The west is generally doing the same by naively thinking that “multiculturalism” is all sweetness and light ; now that tens of thousands of people are marching in western cities calling for another genocide !
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:40am
  - Bloody Dago
    
    The Iron Dome is not losing, the odd border skirmish isn’t losing either.
    
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    October 16, 2023 11:54am
  - Che Guava
    
    “Gazans and Hamas want to wipe Israel out- according to their own Charter, words and actions
    Israel should turn it into a Wasteland and call it peace”
    
    I sometimes wonder if you ever reflect on what you are saying, so often does one sentence contradict the one directly preceding it.
    
    Hamas wants to wipe out Israel (which is bad), so let’s wipe out Hamas (which is good). Even the most parochial philosemite must see the logical problem here. What you really mean is that Israelis can commit atrocities, if atrocities have been committed against Israelis. In other words, it’s not really about the absolute moral value of an act, its the whether or not the act is committed by a friend or an enemy. That’s not morality, that’s self-interest. This is why it’s impossible to accept the self-appointed morally superior position of Israel.
    
    You cannot consistently claim that action A is immoral when you are also advocating action A but in the opposite direction. But then again, the entire pro-Israeli argument is one gigantic moral contradiction attempting to disguise naked self-interest in an ethical cloak.
    
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    October 16, 2023 12:10pm
    - All_on_Red
      
      Hamas wanted War. Now they have got it.
      
      You talk a lot but with no solutions.
      Given the indiscriminate murdering of innocents by Hamas, what do you propose would be a ‘proportionate’ response?
      Sing Kumbaya?
      I am afraid the only solution here is for Hamas to be removed from Gaza permanently.
      With your continued pushing of false equivalence its very clear you are an antisemite.
      
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      October 16, 2023 1:09pm
    - artemisia
      
      Destroying Hamas is not the same as destroying all Gazans.
      
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      October 16, 2023 1:18pm
- Southern Raider
  
  NZ is loosing after the Police let fringe radicals threaten people at the Auckland Museum last night including dangerous driving and damaging public property
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:57am
  - kowtow
    
    Any details or links , please.
    
    These are the kinds of things te media pahti gate keep .( depending on who’s the protagonist)
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:32am
    - Ghost
      
      Pro-Palestinian supporters have “blacked out” the Auckland Museum in protest of its decision to light up in blue and white in solidarity with Israel.
      
      Earlier this week, the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas sent rockets and military into Israel as part of their historical and long-standing feud, killing thousands and taking others hostage.
      
      Article
      
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      October 16, 2023 10:44am
      - kowtow
        
        TY
        
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        October 16, 2023 4:27pm
      - Ghost
        
        To add to that post today the museum has apologized for displaying Israeli support
        
        Article
        
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        October 16, 2023 4:44pm
- Southern Raider
  
  The left wing media around the world is not helping by repeating Hamas propaganda
  
  For instance the IDF did not blow up vehicles leaving Gaza City. It’s clear to everyone the video is of an IED exploding and was caused by Hamas
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:59am
  - kowtow
    
    There’s also footage of trucks blocking the escape of Gazans ,across the road where they had an opportunity to get away . Hamas again.
    
    Has that been covered by te media pahti.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:44am
- Local Miller
  
  Israel are not losing in Gaza and you better go back and read what actually happened regarding Lot. It wasn’t Lot who bargained with God about the cities (Sodom and Gomorrah), it was Abraham, and he got down to 5 good people, and there weren’t 5. So God sent 2 angles to warn Lot and get him out of the city.
  In away, that’s what Israel did, the told the UN to evacuate citizens because they were going to take out Hamas.
  And if you’re actually following new on the conflict you will know that they are seriously taking out Hamas leaders and terrorists.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:01am
  - KH
    
    Ya always need an angle.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:05am
    - ISeeRed
      
      What would be the point?
      
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      October 16, 2023 5:05pm
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Thanks for the OT refresher – it’s been awhile since my Sunday School days.
    
    But, my point stands. I’m sure Israel is going after the instigators from Hamas; doing so is right and proper. But smashing up the place is absolutely not the right way forward. Apart from anything else, if cholera and typhoid break out, those diseases won’t respect borders.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:29am
    - Inandout
      
      NM, IDF are targetting Hamas hideouts and rocket launch bases. Tunnels are a more difficult task but gassing them rather than physically entering them would seem more sensible. The Iron Dome is being upgraded as we speak to the next stage and I am sure Israeli scientists are rapidly getting the new one ready.
      
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      October 16, 2023 10:03am
      - Sarkozygroupie
        
        It’s likely that the hostages are being kept in the tunnels so they won’t be gassed. How long they can survive down there is unknown, Israel hasn’t had much luck locating them. It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that the hostages are dead but are being used as ‘live’ leverage by Hamas still.
        
        Other tunnels in use for gun running etc and known about are different.
        
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        October 16, 2023 10:44pm
    - artemisia
      
      Hamas returns the hostages, Israel opens the water and fuel pipelines (a bit)? Small prob – that means Hamas loses. Though most Gazans survive.
      
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      October 16, 2023 1:24pm
- cmm
  
  The fundamental problem that Israel has is that this is not a military problem. There is no battlefield.
  If it was a military problem it would be far easier: bomb the place flat.
  But all they are after are the Hamas leadership and their assets. Those are hidden amongst a civilian population in line with the old Mao doctrine of “The guerrilla must move amongst the people as a fish swims in the sea.”
  
  Bombs and rockets can’t winkle out Hamas. That will have to be done on the ground going door to door with infantry as well as doing checkpoints etc. This is costly, dangerous and will take a long time.
  
  This will also piss off the civilians, and increase anti-Israeli hostility – which is what Hamas’ main goal would seem to be.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:01am
  - All_on_Red
    
    You’re making the mistake of assuming the ‘civilians’ are innocent
    They aren’t
    They are complicit and because of that, they are going to have to go…
    Which they can.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:12am
    - Matt Long
      
      Certainly there’s a significant number of civilians that are complicit, but also a significant number of people opposed to what Hamas has done.
      Like in NZ, we have the haters and wreckers, and those who are trying to build a better future for everyone.
      
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      October 16, 2023 9:21am
      - All_on_Red
        
        ‘also a significant number of people opposed to what Hamas has done.’
        
        But are there though? Have you seen how indoctrinated the people (and Che) are?
        Their entire existence revolves around hating Israel.
        They dont do anything else there.
        Its a welfare State bludging off the International community. They produce nothing.
        
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        October 16, 2023 1:12pm
      - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
        
        Nz gleefully dobbed in fellow citizens during lockdown. Did we stand up for the rights of others?
        
        Are you so sure Gazans aren’t entirely ok with Hamas and the kill all jews thing?
        
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        October 16, 2023 2:42pm
      - Che Guava
        
        Oh, please. I disagree with Israel and criticise Jews, therefore I hate Jews? That’s just infantile and silly really, or disingenuous, or both.
        
        Besides, rather than not “doing anything else here,” you’ll notice from my repertoire of past comments that I am also very critical of Islamic immigration into the West.
        
        I’ve stated many times that I think both sides are wrong in this interminable conflict, and I don’t buy into this apparently obligatory support for Israel no matter what they do.
        
        It’s frankly bizarre to be foaming at the mouth in support of Israel if one is not Jewish. I guess it’s a natural result of the Palestinian-dominated media a lot of you consume.
        
        I can criticise anyone if there is justification, as any thinking person should.
        
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        October 16, 2023 2:55pm
      - artemisia
        
        All_on_Red “Its a welfare State bludging off the International community. They produce nothing.”
        
        Seems Gazans produce a lot of babies. Half the (very poor) population is said to be children. International aid based on household size? Hmmm, why does that sound familiar?
        
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        October 16, 2023 3:04pm
    - cmm
      
      Whether the civilians are innocent or not is not really the issue. Nobody wants to bomb them.
      The optics of someone holding the body of a bombed kid does not help Israel in any way.
      
      The reality is that Hamas will continue to thrive in the population and they cannot be completely eliminated.
      
      Whatever actions Israel takes will increase hostility and drive more people into becoming Hamas supporters.
      
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      October 16, 2023 9:25am
    - Inandout
      
      AoR, Hamas recruit from the more fanatical Palestinians. The Hamas top brass of course are housed in Qatar, safe from the bombings.
      
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      October 16, 2023 10:07am
    - Ra Henare
      
      AOR.
      Any proof to backup your assertion that all in Gaza are NOT innocent but complicit.
      
      Guess you have your kill destroy kill hat on.
      
      Sad
      
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      October 16, 2023 11:17am
      - All_on_Red
        
        Meh, your own words show you as being an antisemite
        There are plenty of videos showing huge Gazan support for the attacks. Especially from children.
        But prove me wrong.
        Show me a Gazan condemning the slaughter of Israeli children.
        In fact- show us where YOU have condemned that act.
        
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        October 16, 2023 1:15pm
      - Ra Henare
        
        AOR, your response is amusing if not quaint. You sure you are not a leftie skilled at deflection?
        
        I just asked a simple question and threw in a bit of emotion to ensure a response haha.
        
        Am not anti anything. Just a truth seeker.
        
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        October 16, 2023 5:04pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        You’re the one doing deflection.
        As they say, the left always accuse others of what they are doing themselves.
        But no matter.
        We see exactly who and what you are.
        Thanks for exposing yourself.
        And the other Bigots too.
        
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        October 16, 2023 7:46pm
      - Ra Henare
        
        AOR. I deplore the killing of any innocents in armed conflicts initiated by politicians or Zelots.
        
        As I deplore the killing of Israeli children, I deplore the killing of Palestinian children(20 at last count by Israelis bombing)
        
        I also find despicable the with holding of food and water supplies to Gaza- yep another way of killing innocents and children.
        
        Both the US and China are also saying “”enough” to Israel.
        
        But of course you know better and want to destroy all the people living in Gaza
        
        You also know fuck all about me. Hence throwing out insults at me is a waste of time.
        
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        October 16, 2023 8:32pm
- NothingLeft
  
  Do you remember ‘Desert storm’ in Kuwait/Iraq? 6 months of build up, incessant aerial bombing sorties that seemed interminable. And then a ground assault that took just a few days with hardly any casualties due to the previous attrition via aerial bombardment.
  
  Israel vs Gaza is a similar technology and size differential, but will be prosecuted quicker, Israel do not want to waste IDF lives (each soldier’s life costs millions), they have resources to pound the shit out of Gaza before ground assault and are doing so. They want to level the place to end the now and future threat of militarized Gaza at lowest cost to Israel.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:04am
  - cmm
    
    Desert Storm was a conventional battle on a conventional battlefield. The Iraq War went to hell once they moved into the cities and it became a guerilla war.
    
    This is not a conventional war. It is urban guerilla warfare. Nobody has ever “won” one of those.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:50am
    - artemisia
      
      The ‘Gaza metro’ tunnels have to be a weak spot for Hamas. Destroying the tunnels one by one will certainly be on the IDF agenda. Israel already knows a lot about the tunnels.
      
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      October 16, 2023 1:47pm
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      Which is why we will at some point see robotic soldiers, terminator style. Not on this occasion, but in future.
      
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      October 16, 2023 6:45pm
    - artemisia
      
      Yes, urban guerilla warfare. But Israelis have some good cards in their hand. I see that water has been restored by Israel in the south, and that will soon reduce the number of civilians in the city. And possibly other occupants. But anyway a clearer path for destruction from the air.
      
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      October 16, 2023 7:07pm
- andrewo
  
  The longer-term problem is that they’re losing the demographic war.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:06am
  - kowtow
    
    “We” , Kimosabi.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:49am
- KH
  
  Israel will survive if they change their mind on the present approach. Not looking likely.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:07am
  - Local Miller
    
    Israel will survive. Fixed it for you.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:50am
- lastmanstanding
  
  Rubbish. The IDF have been organising the 300,000 Reservists who have stepped up including some flying in from other parts of the world in addition to organising the Regulars.
  When the IDF strikes they will destory Hamas and wipe them off the face of the Earth. Yes there will by civilian casualties but that is because the Hamas Cowards hide amongst women and children in the way of the Arabs and Muslims. They dont have the guts to face their enemy on open ground. They deserve destructions.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:16am
  - cmm
    
    Yes, Hamas deserve destruction.
    Achieving that is another thing.
    
    Terrorism and guerillas are extremely difficult to counter. Yes, it is cowardly, but you cannot deny that it is effective.
    
    The IDF can’t really “strike” except at a few of the very clear targets. Bombs and tanks are useless against an enemy embedded in the population unless you are willing to effect large scale slaughter of the civilians.
    
    The only way to do this is house to house searching. That takes a very long time and is immensely dangerous.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:45am
    - bennerg
      
      CMM, this is also my take, and why I believe they are sending the citizens out of northern Gaza, so they can then “cleanse” the area. Then they can have some control of who goes back in.
      
      Then do the same through the rest of Gaza.
      
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      October 16, 2023 10:04am
      - cmm
        
        Yup, that is the only option and it isn’t an easy one.
        
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        October 16, 2023 11:08am
      - Wayne Mapp
        
        This won’t happen. There is no way that Israel can deport over 2 million people from Gaza. Egypt is not going to allow that (the only way that could occur).
        Seems to me that Israel has a real dilemma. Yes, they want to destroy Hamas, but they would know that killing, for instance, 20,000 civilians is not going to be internationally tolerated, including to their allies. It would go beyond being “collateral damage”.
        Israel is going to need other parties to help end this. Yes, there will be an invasion, but it will be more limited than some here think. I suspect that within a month there will be some sort of mediation.
        
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        October 16, 2023 12:06pm
      - hullkiwi
        
        What Israel is wanting is ethnic cleansing of Gaza aka Rwanda or Bosnia. This boxes the US and western European nations into a corner all of their own making.
        
        There is no way Egypt, Jordan or any other Arab nations will accept refugees from Gaza as this would legitimise what Israel wants to do. This was made clear by the Jordanian Foreign Minister, who is currently touring European countries in an effort to broker support to influence Israel for a cease fire.
        
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        October 16, 2023 12:47pm
      - bennerg
        
        WayneM.
        
        I’m not saying they’ll deport them, just move them down south, do the “business” up north, then let back who they want after that. Put temporary accomodation power and food on for them, and watch closely who comes in to that part, then move south and do the same thing.
        
        It’s that or roll over and do the same thing in ten years time.
        
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        October 16, 2023 2:33pm
- Tom Hunter
  
  Reason vs. Emotion:
  
  Twenty years ago I loathed Glenn Greenwald. It’s not just that I thought his opposition to the Afghanistan and Iraq invasions was wrong, but it was the manner of his opposition, which seemed at the time to ascribe to America and the West that we were on the same moral and ethical level as the terrorists of 9/11.
  
  But as he points out, we should be able to learn the lessons from those events.
  
  True, but America does not border Iraq or Afghanistan. They can, and did, go home, having failed to re-educate the populations (although Iraq still has a shot at being a somewhat decent society).
  
  Then there are the realities explained by this former military chappie (in the same link) who explains that the options have been shifted:
  
  If you wanted to know how it shifted, my most dovish COA (Course Of Action) is gone, and my most harsh COA is now the center of my Overton Window.
  
  That option now being COA-B: Danzig 1945, with COA-A German 1945 still on the table with its primary goal being to “de-Hamas” the entire population.
  
  I think even that is optimistic, given that thousands of ordinary Germans who had committed war crimes simply went home and back to their jobs as cops, city administrators, and so forth. They were never “de-Nazified” – by the mid-1950’s they even started to have quiet – very quiet – re-uinions in Bavarian beer halls. But their children were ide-Nazified n about one-two generations. Yet even then it required the cooperation of many Germans.
  
  So I don’t know if anybody can do it in Gaza, but I do know that it’s much more important than just killing Hamas, as the following two videos show.
  
  Gazan children talk about what they’ve learned
  
  Gazan children surround and taunt a captured Israeli child (looks about 6-7 years old).
  
  You’re looking at a future Einsatzgruppe right there.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:25am
- Yvette
  
  In fact Israel has warmed the population – the Just or otherwise – to flee to the south of Gaza least they be used by Hamas as human shields.
  
  Instead of a tooth for a tooth, Israel has long had a policy of their resonse being to take several teeth, and in this regard Hamas have cast the people they supposedly represent into the path of death and destruction. That is their Lot
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:10am
- miltonF
  
  I’m going to make a big claim.
  
  Gaza Strip is going to be wiped out. It will become part of Israel. The Palestinians will be relocated to the West Bank.
  
  I view the Hamas attack as similar to the Al-queda attack on 9/11. An attack so atrocious that it becomes easy to get public consent for military conquest. Many Israelis, international commentators and even Egypt have cast suspicion on Mossad for allowing this attack to happen. Very similar to the “conspiracy theories” about the CIA and 9/11. We know how that ended up.
  
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  October 16, 2023 12:51pm
  - thirteenstars
    
    They won’t be relocated to the West Bank. Adding 2 million indoctrinated Israel antagonists to that particular area bordering Israel proper as well as Jordan, is asking for disaster.
    
    Hamas and their puppet masters Iran would see it as a gift from Allah. Hell, if rockets being launched from Gaza at a distance of 70kms into Tel Aviv is a headache, how bad do you think it’ll be when they start lobbing them in from central Israel only 20kms away?
    
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    October 16, 2023 3:47pm
Warren

How can Maori and the Media get ahead in New Zealand when all they can do is slag off the New Prime Minister Chris Luxon on the Current Affairs program the Nation on TV Three on Sunday.
Mihingarangi Forbes and the panel including Mark Jennings took pot shots at the new Prime Minister because he wouldn’t come on there show”.
Why would anyone give these clowns any more reason to try and crucify him after what they had to say on Sunday with
statements like this ” it wasn’t Luxons doings and ability that won it was the rich donor’s that Financed him that won.
Phttps://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/10/newshub-nation-mihi-forbes-warns-luxon-can-t-avoid-m-ori-media-and-tough-questions-forever.html
Mihingarangi Forbes warned Luxon you can’t avoid Maori Media and the tough questions for ever.
Please tell me what person would go on Three Now and be ridiculed by people like these.
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October 16, 2023 8:01am
- Ruawai
  
  It wasn’t the donors who chose National it was the voters!
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:45am
- RoboRob
  
  Best just not to watch that trash show 😊. After watching the Maori (only) vote in comparison to the rest of the country its more and more clear that the Maori seats are just a popularity contest between Labour MPs and TPM MPs. We replace one Labour MP who has been in for 1000yrs and achieved nothing but enrich her family with a 21yr old TPM candidate who can hardly string a sentence together.
  
  A total waste of space.
  
  Lets see if Winston will finally put his money where his mouth is and get rid of the racist seats. He has the opportunity.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:55am
  - wsk12345
    
    I asked a Nat MP about getting rid of the Maori seats (when she was out campaigning). She said it can never happen as being constitutional change (she didn’t use that term but something like it) it required 65;or 75% or whatever it is.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:52am
    - alwyn.a
      
      If she said that she is wrong. The Maori seats are not an entrenched part of the Act and could be removed by a simple majority of Parliament.
      That doesn’t mean that it is going to happen any time soon though. No party is really willing to do it.
      
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      October 16, 2023 12:07pm
    - NothingLeft
      
      Six provisions in New Zealand law are constitutionally entrenched, meaning they can only be changed by a vote of more than 75% of the House of Representatives or more than 50% of voters at a referendum. They are contained in the Electoral Act 1993 (and one in the Constitution Act 1986) and relate to:
      
      the term of Parliament
      the Representation Commission (a committee that determines electoral boundaries)
      the division of New Zealand into general electorates
      the 5% margin for the population of general electorates
      the minimum voting age of 18
      the method of secret voting.
      
      But many will recall recent Labour kite-flying over wanting to reduce voting age saying that they could get around entrenchment if the wanted to, by changing law regarding entrenchment if I recall correctly.
      
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      October 16, 2023 12:12pm
  - Gravelroad
    
    I saw the teenager plus two years candidate “interviewed” on TV.
    She looked rather rattled and was surrounded by a lot of young kids and “Whanau” like a security blanket.
    And that’s all she could say: “Umm, the kids and Whanau are here……”
    She will need a more effective security blanket than that when she gets to Parliament.
    Unless she is going to take kids and Whanau with her – which she could, I suppose.
    Or an emotional support animal?
    
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    October 16, 2023 11:12am
    - RoboRob
      
      She will probably do an Elamane Kopu (sorry couldnt find the spelling) and simply not show up.
      
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      October 16, 2023 11:51am
      - rouppe
        
        The maiden speech will be heard without interruption, as that is the decent thing to do.
        
        Look out for wailing karakia at the start.
        Possibly loads of colonisation, “my people”, and thinly veiled racist remarks.
        
        She’ll be mentored by the very racist Rawiri Waititi and Debbie Ngawera-Packer. She comes from lineage that started the original Maori movement that brought us the likes of Hone Harawira and Tame Iti.
        
        Don’t expect much
        
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        October 16, 2023 12:45pm
      - Dave
        
        ‘Alamein’, as in the 1942 battle.
        
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        October 16, 2023 1:20pm
  - thirteenstars
    
    Forbes and Wright make my skin crawl. Political operatives presenting themselves as girly-voiced luvvies, slipping the knife into anyone who’s not with the agenda.
    
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    October 16, 2023 4:01pm
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      Mihi Forbes. Like she’s ever suffered discrimination when growing up. She’s blonder than Suzanne Somers.
      
      And if you’re wondering about her first name, she was christened Joanne.
      
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      October 16, 2023 6:53pm
      - thirteenstars
        
        Indeed. It’s like her and Wright are characters in some kind of white-guilt Liberal video game.
        
        Except they have sway over large numbers of NPCs with voting powers and thug’s vetoes.
        
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        October 16, 2023 7:12pm
- Gravelroad
  
  Spoilt and special people in their little bubbles have been paid, protected, listened to and supported by the Labour government for a long time.
  It is predictable that they will be feeling anxious and hard-done-by now.
  Maybe time has come for the ordinary working people out here, who have had no such influence and favour, to get a look in?
  The world does not totally revolve round the highly paid and cosseted people in the media.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:59am
- Nickc2
  
  Funny what the expectation of free money, assumed status, and importance does for some people eh?
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:05am
- lastmanstanding
  
  On reflection I am not too concerned if NZF are part of the coalition. They will support ACT on dealing with the very serious race issues a matter that the Nats seem ambivalent. They will support ACT on dealing with crime and the Gangs again a matter where the Nats appear to just want to do it better than Labour. They will support ACT and the Nats on economic and other issues.
  In fact apart from race and crime NZF has few policies of note and nothing that conflicts with the Nats.
  IMHO we may see a different Winston. He is coming to the end of his political career and like all long term politicans he will want to leave a legacy in addition to ensuring the party he founded 30 years ago continues after him. One way is to work constructively with the Right the home of most of his followers. A combination of the Nats ACT and NZF could keep the Left away from the Treasury benches for a long time but only if they work together.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:09am
  - Drone
    
    So manypeople think the Winston will save the day, he won’t. Currently his line in the sand is a Covid Enquiry, endless money for lawyers, endless Winston publicity, actual outcome SFA. New Zealand has been here before, remember the Winebox Enquiry endless waste of human resources and money. I remember it, I remember Winston but I have no recollection of the outcome, a Covid enquiry will be the same. The covid criminals have all been rewarded, there is no prison for them, and some have left the country as heroes, it makes me weep to think of the opportunities New Zealand has lost by inserting Winston in the big house.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:13am
    - rouppe
      
      That’s because the wine box enquiry was brought by Peters against the government of the day (SFO and IRD as the proxy).
      
      There shouldn’t be a second COVID enquiry, the terms of the existing royal Commission should be amended
      
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      October 16, 2023 12:50pm
  - MikeMan
    
    I hope so, but I have serious trust issues with WJP.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:34am
- Pope Punctilious II
  
  All Luxon has to say is that he’ll happily be interviewed by journalists. Forbes isn’t a journalist – she’s an activist posing as a journalist.
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:30am
- In Vino Veritas
  
  Lol. Luxon can indeed avoid the Maori media. For as long as he so chooses. Sort of like Ardern refusing to speak with Mike Hosking. Forbes is just another two-bit, waste of space agitator.
  
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  October 16, 2023 11:24am
  - Ghost
    
    But he hasn’t avoided them, have they forgotten he was in the hui October 3rd
    
    The Hui
    
    12 0
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    October 16, 2023 11:38am
- oldgolfer
  
  Three might end up as 0.
  
  4 0
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  October 16, 2023 11:39am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  He had a full day of discussions with several people at his house, he also contacted Seymour and Peters
  
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  October 16, 2023 12:33pm
- ecco
  
  I was shocked at that woman di Boni’s statements. Almost defamatory. Was also shocked she writes for the NBR. I certainly wouldn’t read anything on NBR on the back of that information on who is writing for them.
  
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  October 16, 2023 1:07pm
- NothingLeft
  
  NZ MSM delenda est. Govt has to stop funding the fifth column intent on destroying NZ’s democracy and economy.
  
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  October 16, 2023 1:51pm
Captain Mainwaring

Stuff seems to have stopped giving us a daily ‘cartoon’. What a surprise.
Speaking of cartoons, no new ones on Garrick Tremain’s website for over a week. Hope he’s OK.
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October 16, 2023 8:03am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Don’t worry. The cartoons will start up again. Caricatures of Ministers dressed grim reaper style and homeless children starving in the streets.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:07am
  - Swifty
    
    Yep, even with things improving it will be all Charles Dickens crap from Stuff for the next three years – you can count on it.
    
    That and Labour being portrayed as the knights galloping through the pounding surf, riding to the rescue.
    
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    October 16, 2023 8:22am
    - Aquarius
      
      Stuff will not exist in 3 years time. They shouldn’t exist now, but were saved by payments from their masters
      
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      October 16, 2023 9:33am
    - Jimbo666
      
      Three years? It’ll more likely be nine years. The MSM will not be around in its current form!
      
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      October 16, 2023 9:50am
    - sirknz
      
      Three years is optimistic. I will be surprised if they make it to Christmas before they fold once the taxpayer funding has been severely restricted…
      
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      October 16, 2023 11:19am
  - Im Right
    
    Yes….wonder what Sharon Murdoch the Stuff cartoonist will do next, you can be assured it will be anti Luxon/National with a bit of anti ACT for good measure, how she is allowed for the last year or so to just lampoon one side (the right) beggers belief.
    If Labour are the recipients of her cartoon it’s light and whimsical (chippy eating a saussie roll or some such)
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:13am
- Clown
  
  I love seeing scumbag media channels who shilled for Labour/Greens squirming in panic. I’m hoping Luxon does the wise thing and shuts down all the public funding for these propaganda channels. Some of those ‘journalists’ need to go outside and see what real work looks like
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:12am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Luxon should follow Trump. “You are Fake News” then ignore them.
    He will not get any good publicity from them, they are toxic.
    
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    October 16, 2023 8:57am
    - Ra Henare
      
      Luxon should also follow Trumps lead in cancelling some 6,000+ “regulations” that stiffle growth and innovation. and just put further layers of expense on the economy.
      
      https://www.downtoearth.kiwi/post/the-new-government-s-top-priority
      
      https://www.forbes.com/sites/waynecrews/2021/01/19/status-report-what-regulations-did-the-trump-administration-eliminate-in-2020
      
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      October 16, 2023 11:38am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        For every new regulation council two
        
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        October 16, 2023 12:01pm
  - Matt Long
    
    Cramner talks about the lengths Labour went to to get the right messages out. New OIA.
    https://x.com/CranmerWrites/status/1713324638493913122?s=20
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:29am
    - Trev
      
      IMO it was disgusting how Labour bought media compliance and used public funds for what was clearly Labour Party propaganda purposes. NZ went backwards under Labour and trust in government took a huge hit. I doubt that MSM will ever recover that trust but government itself might recover somewhat if it behaves better including cutting “tied” funding to media.
      
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      October 16, 2023 10:33am
      - kowtow
        
        It’s one thing for an authoritarian leaning regime to buy the media off.
        
        The truly disgusting thing is that the media sold themselves , and happily .
        
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        October 16, 2023 10:58am
  - Terry Dalee
    
    Sic Winnie on the MSM… Yep.. Minister for Broadcasting….
    
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    October 16, 2023 12:50pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    Clown: “I’m hoping Luxon does the wise thing and shuts down all the public funding for these propaganda channels.”
    
    If he doesn’t they will be a giant cancerous tumour on his back.
    
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    October 16, 2023 6:53pm
- Blog-aholic
  
  Maybe thay can no longer afford them.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:30am
- RoboRob
  
  Thats interesting. I recently email then (twice) about their cartoons breaching their code of ethics (not holding power to account and only representing once part of society). They never bothered to even reply to me, so I no longer give stuff my clicks.
  
  I wonder if they are re evaluating thier cartoons?
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:57am
  - sirknz
    
    Use an adblocker on that site with extreme prejudice.
    
    U-Block is a great one…
    
    6 0
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    October 16, 2023 12:18pm
    - RoboRob
      
      I dont want to even go to the stuff.co.nz URL. That way sites that sell advertising will see a reduced site visit and reduce the payment to stuff accordingly.
      
      Only been there once in the last ~month, when I accidentlly clicked a link here from someone.
      
      If enough people do it, they will cease to exist.
      
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      October 16, 2023 1:19pm
- JJ56
  
  https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/tremain-stuffed
  
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  October 16, 2023 12:37pm
Vinicius

Someone may have posted this yesterday, so in case anyway missed it Michael Bassett has written a piece about the election result and what happens next for the new government and the major challenges they will face.

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/michael-bassett-hallelujah-first-steps-of-progress-at-last

One matter that Bassett discusses at length is the public sector. The Public Service Commissioner Peter Hughes is standing down in early 2024 so the new government will have to select an effective replacement. Also as has been discussed here at Kiwiblog there is the issue of what to do with some Public Sector CEO’s etc.

Does the government move on immediately some of these CEO’s? That to me includes the Police Commissioner Coster and Iona Holsted the head of the Education Department.

To keep a CEO who is not performing or who are doing a Sir Humphrey Appleby obfuscation act I think they should be moved on sooner than later.

Also, I think the role of Minister of the Public Sector is going to be key cabinet role to ensure the public sector works more efficiently. It will take someone who has a real toughness and single mindedness and understanding of how government really works. I think David Seymour would be a good fit. Andrew Little (aka Dr DoLittle) held the role in the last government.
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October 16, 2023 8:04am
- RoboRob
  
  Seems like a golden opportunity.
  
  I don’t think Seymour / Act would get the job as Acts policy of wholesale removing departments (which I strongly support), might be a bit much for National.
  
  Agree re Coster. I think the entire MOE needs to go but if that cant be done scrapping he CEO and replacing it with someone outside of the MOE and Union sector might have to do.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:02am
  - Vinicius
    
    Wouldn’t bother me either if some government departments were scrapped. But any proposal to do so would the final decision of the Cabinet not the Minister alone.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:31am
  - Trev
    
    Bring back Joyce to sort out some of the rogue Gvt Department heads. He knows how to get things done! What is he up to these days?
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:47am
    - Ghost
      
      Na, leave him alone. He’s looking after his son, that’s more important
      
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      October 16, 2023 10:50am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Luxon said to Hosking this morning that he had Joyce and English in discussing portfolios with possible ministers, I think Joyce and English may well be used a lot
      
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      October 16, 2023 12:37pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Bit like draining the swamp. Not just the head honchos, but the rotten woodwork that has been there for decades doing nothing.
    Coster is appointed by the Gov Gen. He finishes next year I think. He could resign, or he could be pushed with a contract penalty paid. It might be better to sack him, pay the penalty so we can have a good Commissioner.
    
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    October 16, 2023 12:26pm
  - rouppe
    
    It could be partly achieved by reassigning some staff.
    
    It’s taken a month to get my RealMe account renewed (I didn’t know it expired after 10 years). It’s just a renewal for goodness sake.
    
    Redeploy staff in there to do those. Redeploy staff in to do passports inside of 2 weeks. Redeploy staff into processing visas properly instead of that rubber stamp we heard about recently.
    
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    October 16, 2023 12:57pm
- KH
  
  The Wellington ‘civil servants’ are a problem. Even more of a worry than the MPs in my view.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:42am
  - zulumonster
    
    The bizarre electorate results in Wellington confirm that problem KH. When even the teat-sucking public servants can’t bring themselves to support such a useless adminstration any longer what do they do? Vote for the batshit crazy Green option.
    I am but one vote in this sea of green … and I despair …
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:32am
    - hullkiwi
      
      ….and contrast that with Auckland, where many public servants are happy to see Labour go.
      
      However, within the council and it’s CCOs there are many watermelons. Over the past 30 years followers of the Green party have infested the Council and it’s CCOs. Hence the Council has been living beyond its means, and despite the size of its ratepayer base it will continue to have annual budgetary black holes.
      
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      October 16, 2023 12:11pm
  - RoboRob
    
    Yup. look at the election results for Wellington central. In an election where >50% of the country voted right, 67% of Wellington voters voted Left. With the vast majority voting Green.
    
    Electorate vote
    Green 38%
    Lab 28%
    
    Party vote
    62.03% voting Green or Labour
    
    Its clear that Wellington lives in a bubble. Contrast Wellington with other Labour strongholds (Wigram and Mt Albert) where there was a significant swing to the right. This just didnt happen in Wellington.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:39am
    - EugeneTheChemist
      
      Wellington is rooted!
      We have Green & Red MP’s, WCC full of Green & Red Councillors & Green & Red Civil Servants.
      Too many Civil Servants and young people indoctrinated to Left Wing and SJW movements
      How did this happen?
      I have lived year many years and I cringed when Greg O’Connor was elected back in.
      I have not seen him at all in the last 3 years
      I’m going to say it now, John Key was right. Wellington is a dying city.
      
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      October 16, 2023 11:29am
    - RichardF
      
      Spare a thought for us centre right voters who live in WLG. I tend to keep my opinions to myself , or else I’ll upset the snowflakes at work.
      
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      October 16, 2023 11:33am
      - zulumonster
        
        You’re not alone in that approach Richard …
        
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        October 16, 2023 12:41pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Wellington is nothing without the do nothing civil servants. A socialist shithole.
    My brother lives there but I couldn’t.
    
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    October 16, 2023 12:30pm
- Vinicius
  
  Anyone got any thoughts about what should be done about Adrian Orr and the Reserve Bank?
  
  Does the new government change the Reserve Bank dual mandate only or get rid of Orr as well?
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:29am
  - Taieri
    
    Does the new government change the Reserve Bank dual mandate only or get rid of Orr as well?
    ———-
    
    Both.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:56am
    - hullkiwi
      
      Taieri, I had a conversation with a potential cabinet minister about the composition of the RBNZ Board, the RB Governor, Coster and other poor performing senior civil servants…..let us say the list is long and the targets have been obvious to all.
      
      Change will come, and as Wayne Mapp has highlighted often, there is due process to observe. NZ does not have the same govt structure/process as the US, so poor performing govt execs can not be moved on easily at the whim of a Minister or their supporters. Remember also, NZ is small and there is not exactly a long list of good quality execs to run NZ govt departments or agencies, look at the Min of Education, Orange Tamariki and NZTA/Waka Kotahi also as 3 further examples of poor leadership at the top of each organisation over the past 6 years.
      
      Finally, it must be noted, that Helen Clark did not follow due process when she got rid of a Police Commissioner in 2000, and that ended up costing the taxpayer.
      
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      October 16, 2023 12:29pm
  - miltonF
    
    Didn’t you hear Vinicius? The RBNZ is “completely independent” of the govt, so the incoming govt can not do anything at all about the RBNZ (or so Labour voters would have you believe).
    
    The logic is so frighteningly bizarre. Clearly they are not independent. The govt can set whatever mandates they like, as we saw with labour.
    
    Just wait, they’ll scream murder when the new govt makes any changes. They’ll completely change their tune. “RBNZ not independent!”. It’s OK when the left do it, huh?
    
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    October 16, 2023 1:07pm
- In Vino Veritas
  
  Vinicius, if you’d listened to Luxon being interviewed by Hosking, you would have heard him say he wants the right people with him that are focussed on delivering for the Government and the NZ people. And he would deal with those who will not.
  
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  October 16, 2023 11:26am
Tricati

A good summary of what the new MP’s will bring to parliament, and very telling is the level of real world experience the new National MP’s will bring.
Other than National, the rest are pretty much from an activist back ground and will bring sweet FA to help get NZ back on track.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/andy-foster-tamatha-paul-hana-rawhiti-maipi-clarke-host-of-new-faces-on-track-to-enter-new-zealands-54th-parliament/LC4BSNJOWJBMVMV572RUC56HTI/
And listening to the MSM, you would think the Greens and Māori Parties had won the election – They just can’t let it go.
The arrogance and self-importance were clearly on show during The Nation yesterday clearly they feel snubbed or maybe concerned.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2023/10/newshub-nation-mihi-forbes-warns-luxon-can-t-avoid-m-ori-media-and-tough-questions-forever.html
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October 16, 2023 8:04am
- Blog-aholic
  
  Forbes is being a petulantchild here beacuse Luxon can ignore whoever he wants, just like Ardern did.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:32am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    I refude that – next please.
    Yep, that’s how she operated.
    
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    October 16, 2023 12:36pm
- Flossie
  
  I believe those two (Green and TPM) just benefited from the tide turning against Labour rather than any preference for their pie in the sky ideas.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:45am
Opie

Was away for the weekend so a bit late to the party.

I’m not sure which i enjoyed more. Hipkins being assisted into a vehicle in a state of shock once the numbers were released, looking like he was about to vomit, or watching him cry while he conceded like the blithering cry baby he is.

So arrogant, he genuinely thought he was going to win.

The only thing that would have been better would be if arden had the strength of character to stick around and pay the price for her incompetence.

Winston back in but not in a position of power means that hopefully some of his ideas can be used but without the grandstanding and 6 weeks of fishing.
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October 16, 2023 8:05am
- kowtow
  
  Both Clarke’s and Hipkins’ ‘concession” speeches were less than gracious.
  Revealing they have an inate level of entitlement to rule and an unhealthy disregard for democratic conventions .
  
  Speaking of which did anyone else notice senior Labour types , I think both Hipkins and Robertson blithering on about the importance of peaceful transition of power .
  
  Idiots . Again the notion that we’re some sort of Third Worldish , shallow, fake democracy………which is actually what they were driving us towards.
  
  Thank goodness they’re gone.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:37am
  - Inandout
    
    kow, I recall Helen making her speech after their defeat in 2008. A very bitter woman who left the stage, brushed past her husband (though he obviously wanted to hug her), and disappeared into the mist.
    Hipkins is more fortunate in that he has a new love in his life.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:16am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Ardern would never stick around. She would have to say sorry – a word not in her dictionary. She is a coward, so she ran.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:17am
  - Tricati
    
    Yep, and her childish comment to Hipkins when she went – Tag you are it – as if being the PM was just a game sums her up beautifully – A petulant child.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:40am
  - muzled
    
    Ardern was only ever there to build her brand.
    
    She did better than she’d ever dreamed of.
    
    As soon as she realised she was as toxic as a caustic acid she ran off to build her brand somewhere else.
    
    Labour would have polled under 20% if she hung around.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:40am
- artemisia
  
  Not sure Mr Hipkins really thought ‘he’ was going to win, whatever he said in the campaign. But doubt he was expected what some headlines are calling a bloodbath.
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:25am
Maggie Pie

‘Behind every successful man, is a successful woman’

Knowing Amanda, we can expect Christopher to be at least a three-term PM.

Just saying 😀
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October 16, 2023 8:09am
- kiwikidsnz
  
  “Behind every successful man is an exhausted woman”
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:14am
  - peterwn
    
    In that regard Thea Muldoon was a loyal hard working hero supporting her husband as MP and Prime Minister over many years. She set a high standard.
    
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    October 16, 2023 8:33am
    - NothingLeft
      
      Dominion post headline “Rooting pig shot in Ngaio, PM Safe”
      
      I think it was Holyoake that had the special elevator installed in the Beehive to be able sneak his mistress into his office without everyone seeing her.
      
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      October 16, 2023 9:19am
      - peterwn
        
        That sounded more like a ‘Double Standard’ headline (Someone in the 1970’s posted billboards for an imaginary newspaper ‘Double Standard’ with witty headlines).
        
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        October 16, 2023 11:13am
      - marcw
        
        The last term of Sir Keith ended in 1972, the Beehive housed the Government from 1979.
        
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        October 16, 2023 12:18pm
      - alwyn.a
        
        “I think it was Holyoake”.
        Then you think wrong.
        Ministers moved into the Beehive in September 1979. That was a couple of years after Holyoake left Parliament so even if you supposition of a mistress was correct your conclusion would be impossible.
        
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        October 16, 2023 12:24pm
      - peterwn
        
        As for comments that the Beehive was opened after Keith Holyoake retired from being PM, the Beehive project was conceived, designed and (as far as I know) construction commenced during the term of Keith’s government. Keith could well have been instrumental with having a dedicated PM lift installed. Rob Muldoon was the first PM to occupy the Beehive.
        
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        October 16, 2023 9:45pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    “Behind every unsuccessful man, is an unsuccessfull woman – usually two’
    
    (Groucho Marx)
    
    😀 😀 😀
    
    25 1
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    October 16, 2023 8:41am
- hmmokrightitis
  
  Or as was told to me…
  
  “Behind every successful man is a woman wondering how the hell he managed it”.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:17am
- mandk
  
  “Knowing Amanda”
  
  Does that mean she is one of the girls at the tennis club?
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:23am
  - a3kidlady
    
    IF Amanda is indeed one of the girls at the tennis club, then that answers one of the important questions of the weekend “What does Amanda do to have arms like that?”
    
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    October 16, 2023 8:40am
- imalwaysright
  
  Maybe she should have run and cut out the middleman .
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:23am
- mogg
  
  Luxon is definitely punching above his weight with the lovely Amanda, how does he do it? Does she go for hair on the lower slopes only.
  
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  October 16, 2023 2:55pm
cmm

James Shaw is warning that a referendum on Maori seats is likely to be met with rioting and worse.

That’s a pretty racist thing to say. I thought the worldview that the Greens were selling us is that Maori are wonderful peaceful people who have everyone else’s best interests at heart. But now he’s saying that Maori are incapable of reasonable discussion about democracy and will fly off the handle.

Of course he might be right, but we should not cower down from doing the right thing because there are threats.
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October 16, 2023 8:09am
- G152
  
  A desperate little man there. His party didnt want him but they had noone to replace him.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:16am
- kiwikidsnz
  
  Just following John Tamihere’s same line yesterday.
  
  Because appeasement & paying blackmail has such a long track record of success
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:19am
- Benedict Yu
  
  AFAIK David Seymour is not proposing a referendum to abolish the Maori seats.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:22am
  - mandk
    
    But we should.
    
    The election showed again that Māori are perfectly capable of getting voted in.
    
    This shows that, collectively, electors are not racist.
    
    It also shows that seats reserved for Māori are not needed and that the overhang the Māori seats have delivered is a travesty.
    
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    October 16, 2023 8:28am
  - David Garrett
    
    Bene: Never going to happen mate. Back in 2008 both the Nats and ACT campaigned on abolishing them. Once in office the Nats not only abandoned the policy but got into bed with the Maori Party, as it then was. There is now zero chance of these racist anachronisms being abolished.
    
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    October 16, 2023 8:31am
    - RoboRob
      
      IF Winston wanted to put his money where his mouth is he could achieve that right now. Act and NZF both support it and some of National likely do too. If he asked for hit, and wanted to front it, I would struggle to see Luxon decline.
      
      Of course we are talking about Winston here, so who knows if he really believes in it.
      
      p.s. They should definitely go. The are a relic from the past initially designed to keep Maori representation down (when the Maori population was large). The serve no purpose in a modern system other than an separatist system.
      
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      October 16, 2023 9:10am
      - Matt Long
        
        If you think Luxon is going to expend political capital on a bun fight over Maori seats, I have news for you.
        We’ll be lucky if bilingual road cones don’t get rolled out.
        
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        October 16, 2023 10:17am
      - RoboRob
        
        @Matt
        
        I agree. Thats why I said ‘and wanted to front it’. If Luxon can spin it as a cost of dealing with Winston than he loses nothing and we win.
        
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        October 16, 2023 10:51am
      - Ian Boag
        
        initially designed to keep Maori representation down (when the Maori population was large)
        
        I thought it was done because there was a property qualification for the vote and Maori land was pretty much communally owned ….
        
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        October 16, 2023 5:08pm
    - NothingLeft
      
      And it was bullshitting Winston’s 2017 election ‘bottom line’, promptly ignored once he had taken his 30 pieces of silver.
      
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      October 16, 2023 9:24am
  - wsk12345
    
    It’s implicit in the legislative changes he has proposed, surely.
    
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    October 16, 2023 11:07am
- In Vino Veritas
  
  Of course Shaw is warning. Violence, the answer the left gives to everything that doesn’t suit them.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:24am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    Is he warning, or is he tactically enabling those who are threatening disruption to our democracy?
    
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    October 16, 2023 8:39am
    - kiwikidsnz
      
      Tamihere / Trump
      
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      October 16, 2023 8:41am
    - Matt Long
      
      The left are getting frightened again, time to riot and beat up woman to feel less frightened.
      
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      October 16, 2023 9:45am
    - JimBobJoe
      
      It is a very horrible political call for violence.
      
      James Shaw should be ashamed of saying “If that happens, you will see wide scale social disruption – it could lead to violence.” about a ToW Referendum
      
      Its a Marama Davidson type statement.
      
      Its a cold, self interested tactic as James knows that the entrenchment of Maori privilege via bogus ToW interpretation enables TPM to gain traction and make a Left leaning government more likely.
      
      Lenin to Shaw – the means are justified by the ends….
      
      Are there many more reasons to loathe the NZ Greens?
      
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      October 16, 2023 10:18am
      - Terry Dalee
        
        Who cares.. let them get violent.
        They’ll lose any credibility they apparently had…
        It would expose them for who the Green Party & Te Racist really are…
        
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        October 16, 2023 12:58pm
  - imalwaysright
    
    Shaw and Tamihere should read this :
    
    “Sedition is overt conduct, such as speech or organization, that tends toward rebellion against the established order. Sedition often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent toward, or insurrection against, established authority. Sedition may include any commotion, though not aimed at direct and open violence against the laws. Seditious words in writing are seditious libel. A seditionist is one who engages in or promotes the interest of sedition.”
    
    So should Coster
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:16am
- pdm
  
  cmm I don’t think it is Maori in general that anyone needs to worry about.
  
  It is the `lily white activists’ pushing Maori that will stir up any trouble.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:37am
  - Local Miller
    
    The Maori elite on the top end and the Maori gangs and affiliates on the other end are the problem. The middle Maori, working 8 – 5 want change. This is reflected in the fact that with ~15% of the population, TPM only got 2.6% of the party vote, or ~17% of Maori actually support TPM. And probably not even that as there are at least some non-Maori virtue signalling by voting Maori.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:20am
    - Trev
      
      Well reasoned Local Miller. Many Maori on the general role such as my self would vote for the abolition of Maori seats if given the option. A referendum of all Maori disregarding the rest of voters could well ditch the Maori seats. Obviously they are an anachroism based on the high representation achieved by Maori outside the Maori seats and our MMP system. The paternalism of the Maori seats is long past its use by date and insulting to this Maori.
      
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      October 16, 2023 11:04am
      - cmm
        
        I would argue that the original reason for Maori seats was valid.
        
        Back then, the only people to get the vote were land owners and Maori, traditionally not being land owners, were negatively impacted.
        
        That was addressed in 1867.
        
        But on 19 December 1879 universal male suffrage was introduced. The land owning condition was done away with for all. Therefore the special Maori rule was no longer justifiable.
        
        That was over 140 years ago, yet here we still are with an anachronism from 156 years ago that no politician, of any stripe, has fixed.
        
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        October 16, 2023 1:51pm
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        Perhaps a combo referendum, where Maori and non Maori (ie General Roll), each vote and both parts need to achieve 50% to pass?
        
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        October 16, 2023 8:56pm
- Blog-aholic
  
  James Shaw is a weak spirited man.
  He has no backbone for civil violence and he is the type that eggs bullies on while saying please stop.
  
  Like Ardern he has no character and his, like her cowardice would happily see the country burn so that they could rule over the ash.
  
  JT is of course just riling up his small base saying what they want to hear.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:38am
  - Terry Dalee
    
    “Back in my old neighborhood, there was a special contempt for the kind of guy who was always trying to get two other guys to fight each other. Today, it is considered a great contribution to society to incite consumers against producers, tenants against landlords, women against men, and the races against each other.”
    -Thomas Sowell
    
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    October 16, 2023 1:00pm
- kowtow
  
  The promotion of the Green agenda is based on fear mongering and lies ,assisted by a willing and complicit media.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:42am
- rjay
  
  Very Trumpian response.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:23am
- KH
  
  James Shaw comments were vile. Showed up the nasty under the goofy veneer.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:45am
- Inandout
  
  cmm, taking the Maori seat problem head on will not work but slowly starving that culture of the state tit may work. Slowly, slowly catchee monkey.
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:21am
  - cmm
    
    The Maori party and Maori Labour caucus will ensure that tit stays full.
    
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    October 16, 2023 1:52pm
Chuck Bird

I just heard when Mike interviewed David Seymour that Shaw threatened violence if Act’s policies on race went ahead.
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October 16, 2023 8:11am
- igm
  
  Could not imagine Shaw whacking anyone. He ran to the police (those his party denigrate) when he got a little tap in Botanical Gardens . . . just a wimp!
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:15am
  - Chuck Bird
    
    I bet he would not threaten Peters to his face.
    
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    October 16, 2023 8:59am
PeterB

See the queers and associated alphabet soup are in meltdown lol.
Its not as if Luxon is going to steal Shaneel’s frock.
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October 16, 2023 8:12am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Oh dear, John Tamihere has his tits in a tangle.
Whanau turned away due to not having their easy vote card, or enrolment papers had run out. Wait, why wait until Election day to enrol? Could have been done in the early voting.
When there are enrolment papers they were not being offered the Maori electoral roll.
Voters being pushed to ‘specials’ when they were on the rolls?
Not enough voting forms?

The Electoral Commission were also slack in not getting out voting cards for those who wanted to vote early.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/john-tamihere-slams-unacceptable-treatment-of-m%C4%81ori-voters-on-election-day/ar-AA1idOQQ?
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October 16, 2023 8:16am
- All_on_Red
  
  Would be a change if Johnny the Racist complained about how Maori Electorates have less Voters in them to qualify as an Electorate than a standard NZ Electorate.
  Iirc, its about 25,000 for a Maori Seat to 35,000 for the rest of us NZers
  Hardly fair.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:31am
  - Ehlana
    
    AoR, your numbers may be a bit old. Elections NZ has the following for the 2023 election:
    “The population quotas in those electorates will be:
    65,458 people for South Island general electorates
    64,899 people for North Island general electorates
    67,582 people for the Māori electorates. ”
    
    It is based on total population, since “members of Parliament represent everyone living in their area, not just those who can register to vote.”
    
    Your figures could be the number of voters in each electorate – Maori electorates may skew younger, so few voters for the same population.
    
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    October 16, 2023 8:41am
    - Nigel Kearney
      
      >>It is based on total population, since “members of Parliament represent
      >>everyone living in their area, not just those who can register to vote.”
      
      Which is nonsense. Democracy does not justify a person’s vote having more weight if they have more children. But National (dishonestly) introduced this long ago when rural electorates were the ones with the biggest families. They deserved to be penalized for doing that but I think it has gone on long enough. We should go back to electorates being determined by number of registered voters or voting age population.
      
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      October 16, 2023 8:55am
      - rockape
        
        It’s actually decided by the population of South Island . That population is divided by 16 electorates always then the number of voters in other electorates is based on that. They must remain Withings 5% of that figure or boundaries are realigned.
        
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        October 16, 2023 9:07am
      - Nigel Kearney
        
        We’re talking about two different things.
        
        Your point about the South Island is correct, but electorates are currently based on total population including children, not number of eligible voters. That is what should change.
        
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        October 16, 2023 9:22am
    - KH
      
      Problem with that Ehlana. It neglects that the population counted to determine the number of Maori seats choose not to vote in them. So they get their vote anyway.
      Given Maori have that choice (the rest of us don’t) the number of Maori seats should be determined on enrollment numbers. Thus there should be three, maybe four.
      
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      October 16, 2023 9:53am
      - alwyn.a
        
        The number of Maori seats is determined by the number of people who choose to enrol for the Maori Roll in the Maori Electoral option.
        If you choose to enrol on the General Roll you are not counted in the determination of how many Maori seats there will be.
        
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        October 16, 2023 12:34pm
- Ruawai
  
  Is Tamihere implying the electoral system is racist like the he implies the health and education systems are racist? There is actually equal opportunity in NZ for everyone to enroll to vote, attend hospital when they are sick and get a free education. It relies on individual responsibility to enroll, get yourself to hospital and attend school for better outcomes.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:34am
  - Lance
    
    Mrs Lance was working as an election worker.
    Many of Johns special people were coming in late on Saturday (right up to 7pm) and enrolling, not paying attention by constantly talking on their bloody phones and generally being difficult. Then moaning at the staff that it took so long.
    Now John is claiming it’s all racism.
    You can’t make this shit up.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:17am
    - Tauhei Notts
      
      Lance, it is comments like your’s that make this the best place in the blogosphere. Succinct and honest; not the Press Gallery b.s. I become better informed by reading Kiwiblog than any other news media.
      Lance, you deserve to have a very happy day.
      Why? Because the behaviour you cited is something I have become accustomed to in my frequent interactions with the Special People.
      
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      October 16, 2023 10:23am
    - Observer of Life
      
      Lance: I know someone who was working at a Polling Station on Saturday. The bulk of those registering to vote on the day were Maori and all late afternoon/evening. Apparently lots of special votes all round and the station ran out of various forms: special votes, enrolment, out area voting papers (only one booklet given so they resorted to photocopying them in B&W). It was a small station of 3 behind the desks but were sent 10 polling booths (they only set up 5) and no tables for the staff to work from. Clown world.
      
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      October 16, 2023 10:32am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Was that photocopying done before the vote or after?
        The vote counters would not know. Just saying.
        
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        October 16, 2023 12:56pm
      - Terry Dalee
        
        The counters will know. Its allowed for in the Electorate commission manual to photocopy blank ballot forms. They’ll be assigned their own unique ballot id number too on issue…
        They will have to be marked with the visible pen mark when counted.
        
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        October 16, 2023 1:04pm
- pdm
  
  `why wait until Election day to enrol?’
  
  By law it should have been done when they turned 18.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:43am
  - Observer of Life
    
    Personally, if you can’t get your shit together to enrol prior to the day, then you don’t deserve to vote in that election. We’re enabling these people, more and more, to be losers.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:38am
    - kowtow
      
      Exactly .
      
      The same people who don’t fill out a census and then along comes Nanny and says “oh please here’s a kfc voucher and ticket to the game”
      
      Civic spirit and responsibilty down the shitter.
      
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      October 16, 2023 11:04am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Same people who are welfare dependent as are their parent/s and their kids.
      
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      October 16, 2023 12:59pm
- RoboRob
  
  You mean Maori voters being treated exactly the same way as everyone else. Oh nooooo!
  
  My some turned 18 in Sept. He was registered etc. His easy vote card came with additional instructions. It turned out he had to vote as a special vote. Can anyone explain why? Was this just another cock up by the electoral commission?
  
  How is it that Labour rot has spread to even the simplest of organisations? Voting happens every 3yrs and systems have barely changed, how is it this year the electoral commission seems so incompetent?
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:16am
  - Observer of Life
    
    Robo: He must have enrolled after 15 September. That’s the cut off so they can print the register. If he wasn’t in the register then he became a special vote, unfortunately.
    But you’re right. In other areas they were bloody useless. Their training. The reason why tgey couldn’t get enough staff due to stupid requirements around the “principles of the Treaty”. The latter is so not important in a job where the only requirement is to be professional and stay neutral on all matters relating to the election on the day. Simple.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:40am
    - RoboRob
      
      I think you are right. He was enrolled well before Sep but probably becuase his birthday was actaully on the 19th of Sept their systems couldn’t handle it. Piss poor really.
      
      On the plus side his vote will help balance the special votes away from the left 🙂
      
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      October 16, 2023 10:54am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Govt departments so overpopulated they don’t know what to do?
    All chiefs and no indians?
    
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    October 16, 2023 1:03pm
    - Terry Dalee
      
      The electorate commission is unique.. you have to find and then train a lot of people very quickly for a temporary job. It’s not easy.
      
      I know. I managed an electorate for the 2020 General Election, Advance voting and the post election processing…
      
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      October 16, 2023 1:07pm
Swifty

I get the sense that while violence from their political opponents would be appalling, the co-governance mob believe violence from their supporters in response to a planned referendum would be quite understandable and appropriate.

What an absolute disgrace.

“Do as we say or we will release the mob.”

That’s the relationship Tamihere and Shaw wish to have with the NZ public? That this important national conversation is held but with a looming threat of violence lurking just off stage?

No, we will have this conversation and any violence doers and their leaders will be met with the full force of the law.

Im sorry, but sneaky references to violence if things don’t go their way bring out in me nothing but obstinacy and steely resolve.

I will not be stood over, and New Zealanders should not be either.
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October 16, 2023 8:16am
- David Garrett
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  I will not be stood over
  
  You be a bit more convincing if you had the courage to use your own name…
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:33am
  - Swifty
    
    Oh dear.
    
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    October 16, 2023 8:58am
  - Im Right
    
    Wait what?….with all due respect David YOU use your real name to add gravitas to your posts (the ‘i’ve been there, I’ve been an MP rhetoric) but you do not have a job now, retired or do legal work piecemeal as it comes and having been an ACT MP your political views are known.
    Some of us work and have jobs that having a political view could be detrimental to our jobs.(especially one of a right wing slant and not left….which is fine seemingly)
    Never knock anyone for not using their real name, you don’t know the reason why they cannot.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:24am
    - Swifty
      
      Thank you.
      
      Maybe in a few years when I’ve retired to pasture I’ll post under my own name – but for now and with clients to look after, mouths to feed and with occasional government work, I much prefer to remain anonymous – and let my posts and arguments speak for themselves.
      
      People can take or leave them on their strengths and merits, or otherwise, alone.
      
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      October 16, 2023 10:29am
  - Ghost
    
    Huh? You mean swifty isn’t their real name? Oh my, I better come up with new name so I can post anonymously now I know we are allowed.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:43am
  - Opie
    
    Fine for you mate, you have already destroyed your career once so I can’t imagine your care factor is very high!
    
    Some of us can’t be bothered with the admin while we have kids to feed.
    
    I have never quite understood the argument of you don’t have a real online name so your argument is invalid.
    
    It’s usually a play by leftie trolls who don’t have a counter argument when you call them out.
    
    Not that anyone would call DG a leftie troll!
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:47am
- info@cruzpro.com
  
  Sorry, meant to uptick but downticked by accident. Those tick boxes need to be a bit larger and spread out a bit further.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:36am
- Blog-aholic
  
  A man named Hitler used similar tactics. Then he did use violence.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:41am
- artemisia
  
  Coming right up – fewer cuddles, more consequences.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:46am
- Ghost
  
  I think James is right, and if you think that any Maori violence will be meet with the full force of the law, nope. Although any Maori arrested may get a full apology as those who were arrested in Urewera raids.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:53am
peterwn

I am surprised Chris Hipkins conceded defeat on election night when there was still the possibility of Labour forming a coalition government. Perhaps he considered that a four way coalition would be too much like herding cats and would be unworkable. This limits Winston’s options compared with 2017. He is effectively limited to bargaining with Chris Luxon and co and cannot play off the two major parties against one another.
I personally think that Chris Luxon should offer him a knighthood and London in three years if he is reasonable. I mentioned this to a retired diplomat I know and he was not amused with the latter.
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October 16, 2023 8:19am
- Tony Stuart
  
  Winston wants a review into the media. So offer him Minister of Broadcasting, the review he wants, and a remit to sell TVNZ while it still has some value.
  
  Can you imagine the howls of outrage from the Left if that was to happen. But this is almost certainly Peters’ Last Stand, so he may behave himself so he can create a legacy, and what a legacy that would be!
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:41am
  - kowtow
    
    While we may be very happy for Peters to do that , surely it goes , if necessary to prove he ‘s motivated by hatred and revenge …….( other than his prime motive , Winston First)
    
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    October 16, 2023 8:48am
  - septic skeptic
    
    Far too important an issue to hand off to “what’s in it for me”.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:06am
  - RoboRob
    
    I would LOVE that. Winston could sell TVNZ and privatise Red radio. If he did that, and got rid of the Maori seats he would have done the country a great service. That would, for me, earn him a knighthood.
    
    p.s. He can do it because the damage to him would either slide off (as it always does) or not matter due to his age.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:18am
  - RichardF
    
    Melissa Lee deserves that, doesn’t she?
    
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    October 16, 2023 11:47am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Yes! I am sure Melissa is far from being finished with Broadcasting.
      There are a few that she wants to get her teeth into.
      
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      October 16, 2023 1:12pm
- Opie
  
  I think hipkins was relieved to get an opportunity to exit.
  
  Don’t think he enjoyed being pm much
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:49am
  - RoboRob
    
    100%
    
    I also fully expect a ‘OMG’ moment when people discover what GR has been hiding.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:58am
- david
  
  Ireland could become vacant at short notice if required.
  
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  October 16, 2023 12:36pm
In Vino Veritas

There are lots of reasons it was a great thing that Labour lost. Not least that their leader, and PM at the time got the arse card. I mean, the guy had a blub because he lost!! He’s 45 years old and can’t handle losing. What a bloody wet sook.
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October 16, 2023 8:20am
- Ehlana
  
  I don’t have a problem with him being emotional.
  
  But I was surprised to hear him declare a new-found allegiance of the Labour Party to the working people. Imagine if there were two parties competing to make life better for workers!
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:46am
  - peterwn
    
    What is a ‘working’ person. Traditionally a manual or factory worker (paid weekly in cash) who is not a clerk, supervisor or manager (paid monthly into a bank account). They wore cloth caps whereas supervisors wore bowler hats.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:49am
- miltonF
  
  I know I shouldn’t feel sorry for Hipkins, but watching him bawl up did make me feel a bit gutted…but only because it should have been Ardern taking that fall. Despicable woman.
  
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  October 16, 2023 6:22pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Now the list seats, and how they are worked out due to the number of candidate seats.
I don’t get it. National only get 5, Labour get 17, and Act get 9.
I can’t make my head understand why, and I am usually good with numbers.
Can someone give me a simple answer please?
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October 16, 2023 8:21am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Easy answer. 🙂 Labour get many List seats because they lost so many electorates. The flip side is that National gets relatively few List seats because it won so many electorate seats.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:30am
  - Ruawai
    
    The cut off on the Labour list was 27 (Tracey McLellan) just above Shanan Halbert, the cut off for National was 15 and Andrew Bayley was the 15th so when he wins his by- election on the 25th November, Nancy Lu at number 25 on the National list will move into parliament as she is the next member on the National list not to win an electorate. As BY points out above Labour tanked in electorates so got more list MP’s, whereas National did well in electorates so got less list MP’s
    
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    October 16, 2023 8:41am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    I understand that bit but how do the percentages work?
    It is bugging me. Numbers – in high school I could multiply 4 numbers against 3 – in my head. It was easy. Somewhere in my head I must have had some RAM place!
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:32am
- mandk
  
  It’s because National won a greater share of electorate seats than their overall share of the vote, while both Labour and ACT won a smaller share.
  
  The list seats are distributed so as to make the total number of seats a party wins align with their share of the overall vote.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:33am
  - peterwn
    
    If it was a FPP election (pre MMP days) National would have won by a massive landslide as happened in 1975. In some FPP elections Labour would sometimes lose the election despite having more overall votes than National.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:18am
- David Garrett
  
  Steve: Even simpler (and I am hopeless with numbers)
  
  While the party vote determines the total number of seats, electorates come first when it comes to filling those seats. The list only comes into play when there aren’t enough electorate seats to make up the percentage of party vote gained by whichever party you are talking about.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:36am
  - hullkiwi
    
    Unless you have an overhang of electorate seats relative to your party vote. Aka TPM.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:26am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  I can’t make my head understand why
  
  Because MMP is a system designed to always favour the major parties at the expense of competent individuals.
  
  Labour will bring back into Parliament MPs who could barely manage 3rd place in their electorate.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:46am
  - Taieri
    
    Labour will bring back into Parliament MPs who could barely manage 3rd place in their electorate
    —————
    
    And that’s why our electoral system is undemocratic. It should not be possible to stand in the electorate and on the list at the same time. A politician rejected by the voters in the electorate should not be able to enter the parliament via back door of the list as it is the mockery of the voters’ wishes. Who does he/she/it represents when that happens?
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:02am
    - Dudley Quaffquaff
      
      Remember though that the qualities required to be a good Minister, or even a good MP, are in many ways not the same as the qualities that will get people votes in elections. We’ve seen plenty of examples of people who were awesome at having an attractive family, getting their pictures taken with cute kids and looking suitably concerned when something sad or serious is mentioned – but useless at grasping detail, understanding complex analysis, formulating effective policy, seeing it through and sticking with it when it’s not making for friendly headlines and attractive photo-ops any more. People who are good at the second set of skills might well be unappealing to voters but they’re what we actually need in Parliament.
      
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      October 16, 2023 10:17am
      - Taieri
        
        grasping detail, understanding complex analysis, formulating effective policy, seeing it through and sticking with it when it’s not making for friendly headlines and attractive photo-ops any more
        ————-
        
        Haven’t seen such a minister in a long time. Or an MP for that matter. The state of the country testifies to that.
        
        You’re missing the point. In the truly representative democracy an MP is elected to carry out the wishes of the electorate. And the electorate has to live with the consequences of its choice.
        
        A case in point, Switzerland, where all major issues are decided by referendums. Somehow it works and I don’t believe that the Swiss voters are all that much smarter in general than the Kiwi voters.
        
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        October 16, 2023 11:15am
    - peterwn
      
      That would have its perverse consequences. With MMP a highly competent MP would generally get in on the list which is to the party’s and nation’s benefit. Trevor Mallard won a seat for three years and was out in the cold for three years which was a loss for Labour since he was highly regarded by the leader and his senior MP’s. If electorate candidates could not be on the list then a party would put its most valuable candidates on the list or in safe seats and put the newbies and less valuable candidates into marginal or unwinnable electorates.
      
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      October 16, 2023 11:00am
      - Taieri
        
        You are talking about political tactics, I’m talking about democracy.
        
        I don’t particularly care about the “party benefit”, and Trevor Mallard is not really an example that I’d like to quote, as it would be very difficult to recall any of his real achievements, apart from managing to keep his snout in the public trough for virtually his entire life.
        
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        October 16, 2023 11:23am
  - KiWombat
    
    – – – as well as those who did not even try !
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:08am
    - Jethrod
      
      …..like the person in Ohariu for Labour ….nearly invisible.
      
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      October 16, 2023 9:58am
      - peterwn
        
        Now that is a blessing in disguise. If Nicola had won the seat then another Labour list candidate would have got in and could potentially be a valuable asset to Labour.
        
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        October 16, 2023 11:06am
  - RoboRob
    
    MMP is a system designed to favour MINOR parties. It allows smaller parties to actually get into government and when there they usually have a disproportionate amount of power. The phase usually used is tail wagging the dog.
    Under FPP we had a system where, usually, a vote for other than National or Labour was a wasted vote.
    
    If you lived in a seat like Wigram (as I once did) your vote was always ‘wasted’ unless you voted Labour. At least now you can vote for Act, Green, Winston and your vote matters. MMP has lots of flaws but It certainly doesn’t favour major parties.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:25am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      MMP was introduced in 1993..
      We’ve had at least 30 minor political parties trying to get a toehold into Parliament since then.
      
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_New_Zealand
      
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      October 16, 2023 10:04am
      - RoboRob
        
        And?
        
        We have more active minor parties than under FPP. Thats becuase under MMP they have a chance. We have had more parties in the house than ever before, ACT, NZF, GR, United Future etc. All of these parties wouldn’t stand a chance under FPP.
        
        p.s. Yes the Greens won AKL but they can only exist becuase of MMP. Yes Act won a seat but it was initially gifted to them becuase of MMP.
        
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        October 16, 2023 11:03am
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        I’m not a FPP supporter.
        
        I’ve always favoured STV.
        
        All candidates need to be accountable to their electorate… not to some party bum-licking hierarchy.
        
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        October 16, 2023 1:57pm
  - alwyn.a
    
    If you weren’t allowed to be a List Mp unless you got in the top two places in an Electorate I suspect that ACT would only have 2 MPs.
    
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    October 16, 2023 12:43pm
- nathie
  
  Well perhaps MMP needs tweaking as in the party vote only applies to the List seats (not both Electorate + List seats as it is now)?
  
  Is there a downside to this suggestion? (Apart from the minor parties getting less seats eg the Greens would have only got approx 4 List seats + 3 Electorate seats = about 7 in total).
  
  Meaning the incentive for parties is to win electorate seats.
  
  The Greens and TPM have now proven this!
  
  Of course the minor parties will say this is unfair but it is blindingly obvious that it is unfair for the major party (National) to receive only 5 List seats … and Labour, the loser party, gets 17 List seats meaning all those numpties that got voted out are back troughing)! That sucks and is, to use Labour’s favorite phrase, unfair for the voters!
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:22am
  - hullkiwi
    
    Sorry your comment also is reflective on National, and Act with candidates that stood in seats and failed to get elected as an electorate MP.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:39am
    - David Garrett
      
      Oh dear…another one who doesn’t understand MMP almost 30 years since we adopted it, for better or for worse.
      
      FWIW I am one of the few “right wingers” who supports it – despite it meaning we are visited with the Greens and idiots like Waititi. Parties getting 20% of the vote and getting either two or no seats – as happened to Social Credit regularly, and to Bob Jones’ NZ Party – is not democracy.
      
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      October 16, 2023 1:14pm
      - David Garrett
        
        And as the great WSC said, Democracy is a terrible form of government, but far superior to all the other systems which have been tried. (He said it much better than that)
        
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        October 16, 2023 1:20pm
      - hullkiwi
        
        David, I understand MMP very well. It is an undemocratic system. It protects candidates selected by the party. The party sets the list and it’s ranking, so people like Nicola Willis, Gerry Brownlee (who did not stand in a seat this year), Paul Goldsmith, Shane Jones & others are almost guaranteed of being a MP solely because of their position on their respective party’s list.
        
        The potential was always there for National to have the “overhang from hell”, there was a very real risk that if some of the poll numbers had been realised, National could have won so many electorate seats with a low party vote that they could have won no list seats.
        
        At the moment TPM has an overhang situation, 4 seats with less than 3% of the party vote.
        
        So David, I understand MMP very well thank you.
        
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        October 16, 2023 9:19pm
- Chris Nisbet
  
  In a funny way what we’ve got are the National candidates that people voted for and Labour candidates people didn’t vote for.
  
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  October 16, 2023 12:03pm
- plc
  
  National get 15…….35 electorate seats not 45 as was erroneously posted yesterday
  
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  October 16, 2023 12:23pm
  - Ghost
    
    Where do you come up with that, because if you go see how many electorate seats national are currently holding from the election it is 45
    
    https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/successful-candidates.html
    
    https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/
    
    Who to believe, I’ll go with the electoral commission
    
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    October 16, 2023 12:42pm
Maggie Pie

UK Telegraph….’New Zealand resoundingly choses a conservative government
after the six year nightmare of Labor’s Jacinda Ardern who completely failed
to deliver the transformational change promised’

https://nzherald.co.nz/topic/jacinda-ardern/

My fave headline from the synopsis….

“Dame Jacinda says she was in two minds about accepting the Honour”

LOL!!
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October 16, 2023 8:23am
- mandk
  
  “Dame Jacinda says she was in two minds about accepting the Honour”
  
  Those smacks of false humility.
  
  If she really was in two minds, she could have declined, knowing that she would get the Honour later.
  
  She really is a vile creature.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:42am
Bridgenag

The Real Risks of Childhood Vaccines
Childhood Deaths Dropped By 30% During the Pandemic

https://www.2ndsmartestguyintheworld.com/p/the-real-risks-of-childhood-vaccines?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
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October 16, 2023 8:25am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Don’t go there. The methodology for that study is based on an earlier 2011 study which has been thoroughly debunked.
  
  https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/vaccine-schedules-and-infant-mortality-a-false-relationship-promoted-by-the-anti-vaccine-movement/
  
  The “journal” is also junk
  
  As I have commented many times, it is unfortunate that the COVID vaccines have undermined confidence in childhood vaccines that were a miraculous achievement for humanity. That is not understating the achievements of the heroes who developed vaccines for deadly diseases like polio, small pox and hepatitis.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:44am
  - mawm
    
    Bene – You can’t possibly hold a position of absolute denial when safety of vaccines are questioned. None of the vaccines currently given to American kids have been through a large randomised placebo-controlled study. Since Reagan signed the National Childhood Injury Act, and the vaccine manufacturers have faced no liability for injury caused by their vaccines, these paragons of virtue have felt no need to do so.
    
    There are a lot of unanswered questions about vaccines that could be resolved if long term RCT’s were done, even retrospectively. I suspect that the “vaccine hesitancy” created amongst mothers following the mRNA madness will create a placebo group and we will find out more answers further down the line.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:32am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Well put mawm,
      The vaccines pre mrna were good at targeting their nominated disease and their effectiveness was measured on that metric .
      Unfortunately the vaccines may have been detrimental to the overall immune system and made the host susceptible to less dangerous diseases which have become a bigger threat to life.
      
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      October 16, 2023 11:26am
  - krazykiwi
    
    Benedict, I suggest it is myopic to not question the safety and efficacy of childhood vaccines in the light of what we’re all learned about the pharma/media/health authority consortia’s behaviour in respect of the Covid jabs.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:54am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      Sorry I’ve got better things to do with my life.
      
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      October 16, 2023 11:07am
      - imalwaysright
        
        We would all rather be doing something else, but if these issues aren’t exposed and investigated we will see increased sickness and premature deaths.
        
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        October 16, 2023 11:30am
      - mawm
        
        Bene – The science must always be questioned.
        
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        October 16, 2023 1:25pm
      - krazykiwi
        
        I wasn’t asking you to do anything other than consider that The Science™ and the narrative in respect of childhood vaccinations could well be as littered with fraud and deception has we’ve seen with the Covid vaxes. My reading suggests that this could very well be that case, but if your mind is made that up childhood vaccines have been “a miraculous achievement for humanity” then disengagement is fair enough.
        
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        October 16, 2023 4:26pm
  - krazykiwi
    
    Oh, and ‘Science Based Medicine’ has been a pro-vaxx siren since forever. Founded by medical school profs, so no surprise there given big pharma’s grip on those institutions. If you want to read one of their articles which has aged like fish heads in a car boot all summer, then this is a doozy:
    “Natural immunity” versus the vaccine for COVID-19
    
    Antivaxxers have long appealed to “natural immunity” as being somehow inherently superior to vaccine-induced immunity, which is apparently “artificial”. This is a trope that comes from alternative medicine concepts about purity and contamination that is now endangering us in the age of the pandemic.
    
    No retraction of course, now that The CDC Finally Concedes That Natural Immunity is Superior to Vaccinated Immunity.
    
    I expect Dr Gorski has had his four or five shots, meaning his immune system is quite possibly stuffed. C’est la vie!
    
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    October 16, 2023 5:22pm
Benedict Yu

I checked The Standard this morning just out of curiosity. One commenter said that a factor in the government losing office was the Labour Party embracing “monetarism and Rogernomics”. 🤯

That is enough exposure to insanity for quite some time. 😂
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October 16, 2023 8:26am
- peterwn
  
  Was that commenter called ‘The Bluebaiter’?
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:39am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  I glanced at it yesterday, but it seems that the Labour luvvies were off the site and it was full of folks singing the praises of the Greens.
  
  I find it to be an information-free site.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:51am
  - hullkiwi
    
    Maggy, during the campaign the Standard was:
    1. being used to transmit strategy calls of Fraser House to the masses (it was amazing how many times I read things first in the Standard, and then saw the same calls being played on the campaign trail;
    2. The Labour faithful lost heart early on and were either turning watermelon or disappearing altogether. There were some who are so blinkered they can’t drop the cloth cap rhetoric of their parents and grandparents – it’s like they were babies in pushchairs at the front of the 1951 Waterfront Strike marches!
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:12am
- Tom Hunter
  
  Heh. In contrast to The Standard, The Daily Blog has simply gone quiet with nothing new posted since election day – as opposed to the frenetic, multiple daily postings, mainly by The Screaming Beard – for months on end.
  
  As I said the other day, it’s less a blog than a supposed 21st century version of a bullhorn, or perhaps the pamphlets and little newspapers used by the Far Left in the late 19th and early 20th century.
  
  With the election done and dusted it seems The Daily Bloggers are resting up, although I’m sure they’ll pick up the pace again once a National-led government is formally bedded in post special votes.
  
  Still, the dead silence after so much hysterical screaming is funny.
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:22am
  - muzled
    
    I noticed that.
    
    Kind of assumed that bomber has gone on a week long bender to drown his sorrows.
    
    Hopefully he comes out of it ok if that is the case. His writing of late has been utter rambling diatribe.
    
    I don’t always agree with him but his articles are normally worth a read. I’ve not opened one for weeks now. Waste of time.
    
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    October 16, 2023 2:18pm
- David Garrett
  
  Bene: Indeed…particularly given Roger Douglas has said he no longer supports ACT…does anyone know why exactly he is of that view?? I haven’t seen him for some time, and I am now resident in Tonga.
  
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  October 16, 2023 1:08pm
New Zealander

Based on the election night results from 2020 and 2023 (no specials), this is the vote change for the relevant parties.

Labour -563,000
National +240,000
NZ First +82,000
Greens +62,000
Maori +35,000
TOP +13,000
ACT +12,000

and 127,000 less voters total
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October 16, 2023 8:32am
- cmm
  
  “and 127,000 less voters total”
  There are still special votes coming through.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:12am
  - rockape
    
    Read what was said. The above excludes specials.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:32am
    - New Zealander
      
      Some people fine reading tough.
      
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      October 16, 2023 11:04am
      - muzled
        
        the irony…
        
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        October 16, 2023 2:19pm
    - cmm
      
      IIRC, there are more specials this year than 2020. More people moving around, out of country etc.
      
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      October 16, 2023 11:39am
pdm

Tricolours v Springboks

What a game so far – several notches above the other quarter finals. I think the winner of this game wins the RWC.
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October 16, 2023 8:33am
- Colville
  
  Its pretty loose and flashy so far…typically finals are close fought affairs.
  
  Will Estebeth get redcarded?? I cant see why not.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:55am
- MCōs
  
  I think the ABs will win the World Cup
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:06am
  - pdm
    
    MCos not my downtick.
    
    I think even if the ABs improve a bit on their very good Q/F performance France and the Boks are a fair bit better at the moment.
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:35am
  - David Garrett
    
    Who are these “AB’s” I keep reading references to?
    
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    October 16, 2023 12:52pm
    - MCōs
      
      All Blacks
      Most teams have a nickname eg Ikale Tahi
      
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      October 16, 2023 5:15pm
- Jmac
  
  Strongly disagree that this is better than ABs vs Ireland.
  
  There are 4 top teams and only 2 go to the Semi-Finals.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:08am
- septic skeptic
  
  Riddled with errors compared with NZ IRE.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:11am
- Gravelroad
  
  Still a lot of time wasting, standing around, sitting down, questioning the ref and strategic stoppages going on.
  That is the way the Springboks slow down the game to suit their style of play.
  That does not suit the All Blacks.
  If they make the final, hope the referee is in charge – not the Springboks management. (If they win today).
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:23am
  - hullkiwi
    
    Semi-final an anti-climax after the quarter finals. But the chances are that in 2 weeks we are on for a Twickenham rematch!
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:03am
  - Gravelroad
    
    Am just watching a replay of the England/Fiji game.
    Lots of tactics going on there too – especially typical Pommy stuff of whinging and arguing with the decisions and instructions of the referee.
    I hope that whoever refs the final can stand up to and control this and let the game flow on.
    Shame Fiji did not win.
    
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    October 16, 2023 11:34am
Hugh Jarse

Can we now just go back to being New Zealand ?
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October 16, 2023 8:34am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Nope. Got to get rid of all the shit left behind first.
  It is a big cleanup, 6 years of accumulated rubbish.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:54am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Well said S.O
    
    These bastards’ bastardry needs to be investigated and exposed and if they have engaged in illegal activity , sedition, or treason , they must face an independent judicial system.
    
    It seems that these bastards are conferred immunity when they resign or lose their job.
    
    A bit like a mass murderer getting immunity because they decide to retire from mass murdering .
    
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    October 16, 2023 11:39am
  - Hugh Jarse
    
    Ensuring that New Zealand is used instead of the multiple variations we get would part of the clean up and be a bloody good start.
    
    11 0
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    October 16, 2023 12:17pm
  - mawm
    
    I hope they kept all the old road signs.
    
    7 1
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    October 16, 2023 1:29pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Correct. Then at Hospitals take a permanent Vivid chisel marker pen.
      
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      October 16, 2023 4:44pm
Maggie Pie

An ‘insider’ speaks…

“During the 2017 coalition negotiations with NZ First, over the other side,
Jacinda was prepared to sell her grandmother – and she did”

– Ron Mark (NZH Premium)
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October 16, 2023 8:36am
- Ruawai
  
  More like selling her grandchildren, as they will be the ones still paying off Ardern’s debt.
  
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  October 16, 2023 8:44am
Rusty

I hope Chris Luxon does something about the toxic msm in this country.

That 55 million grant (bribe) money to the msm by Ardern 3 years ago was a disgrace.
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October 16, 2023 8:39am
- NothingLeft
  
  The doubled $125million a year of pointless govt advertising (mostly just a means of pumping money into Labour’s media mates) is a far bigger (~7x) problem. Taxpayers see no value out of that because almost no-one listens to it. It’s just a way of ensuring MSM propagandizes for the govt.
  
  It could be all done away with with a very short once a month non-partisan email to all NZers.
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:48am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Ode for the new Prime Minister.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/an-ode-for-the-new-prime-minister/ar-AA1idGfa?
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October 16, 2023 8:47am
- RRM
  
  That loser Billot publishes a new “ode to” a right politician every week. Half of them are about Luxon. It’s embarassing….
  
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  October 16, 2023 11:59am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Have seen a few leftie ones, but not many.
    
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    October 16, 2023 4:46pm
Ruahine

I am very disappointed in the actions of the Media Party in not revealing the fact that Chris Hipkins had a new ‘partner’. This information would have been known to all and sundry amongst the twiteratti of the Welling ton Media. Why did they not reveal it?
This is important information that was kept from the electorate.
If I had known of this I may have changed my vote.
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October 16, 2023 8:51am
- Prince
  
  They were too busy telling us how Luxon’s religious views would show through in Parliament, and how Uffundell’s actions when he was 16 shows us the sort of person he is.
  It was important to show us Hipkins the ‘committed family man’ to keep the image.
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:28am
  - imalwaysright
    
    It was very bad form that he mentioned his children but not their mother, instead crediting his partner.
    A spiteful act that defines him.
    
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    October 16, 2023 11:44am
- RoboRob
  
  In what way would it have changed your vote? Would you jave voted for Labour if you knew he had a new partner or voted away from Labour becuase if it? Why?
  
  Just wodering. I was surprised to not know, but I would rather have had more coverage of policy then we got.
  
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  October 16, 2023 11:12am
- lifesgood
  
  What. Ruahine? Surely you didn’t vote for the nasty little loser?
  
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  October 16, 2023 12:20pm
RRM

Sitting on the Wairarapa train coming into Wellington, listening to Labour voters work thru their grief… it is FABULOUS.

I might have to blow my pocket money on a flat white just so I can spend a few more minutes out in public enjoying it. 🙂
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October 16, 2023 8:52am
Maggie Pie

Anyone else remember James Shaw saying…..
If a National/Act government were elected he’d leave New Zealand?

Time to brush up that fake CV Jimmy Boy 😀 😀 😀
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October 16, 2023 9:08am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  No, no, please don’t go and leave us with crazy Marama and cannabis Chloe.//
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:01am
  - alwyn.a
    
    Having seen both Marama and Chloe on TV on election night I think the pair of them had been indulging in something a great deal stronger than cannabis.
    Shaw looked incredibly embarrassed having to stand next to Davidson.
    
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    October 16, 2023 12:50pm
- Ghost
  
  I expect he will be rolled within the next few months then retire from politics
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:14am
  - NothingLeft
    
    Maybe he could go back to university and get a degree?
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:52am
  - Local Miller
    
    Why would they roll him? The Greens got their best party vote ever under the current leadership. While we may understand this is more because Liebour voters needed someone other than Liebour to vote for and the only option was Green, it seems petty to now roll Shaw.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:53am
    - cmm
      
      “Why would they roll him?”
      
      Easy. Chloe got double the votes in her electorate than Greens got.
      
      Brand Chloe is stronger. Therefore it makes sens to get rid of Shaw and the need for a co-penis and put Chloe in the role instead.
      
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      October 16, 2023 11:36am
      - Libertarians are right
        
        They already got rid of the need for co-penis.
        I think he’ll be safe though because Chloe will probably have to fight against Tamatha now.
        
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        October 16, 2023 12:01pm
oldpark

Looking at NZs sad sack so called Mainstream Media on their reporting on the General Election.
Seems we either have a bunch of street kids masquerading as Journalists or is Journalists masquerading as Street Kids.
Watched and read a bunch of low class low renters either way .
They tried to destroy National /Act/ NZF .With their lies and daily fake news .
The waste of space CTU daily fed the American owned CNN Styled Newshub Tv3 Channel with so much fake news .With some woman aptly named Lynch for ever putting the boot into National saying they were out to lunch and crashing in the race for a change of Lefty Punitive control freak Labour /Green /CTU Government .
The other Television Channel yes the Labour party Channel TVNZ were also so biased against National and Christopher Luxon that it is a wonder that maybe National/Act / NZF should sell the bastard channel Asap .
Street kids common Low rent Print Media should be ashamed of themselves as well. What a sick bunch .Seems Stuff and NZ Herald could see their bribed money handout by Ardern/Hipkins control freaks disappearing with a change of Government .Hope so .
Message for all of the mentioned media biased fake news clowns .
“You lost we won eat that” .
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October 16, 2023 9:08am
- kevn
  
  liber… and who will seduce who? Thus become the dominant one.
  
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  October 16, 2023 3:32pm
TripeWryter

I meant to write this yesterday but I was seriously distracted by events in Paris.
But if I was a political reporter and I had turned out a column such as Tova O’Brien’s my editor would have either reassigned me or sacked me for not being up to the job.
I was surprised – well, perhaps not – that she said she had not seen the election result coming.
Where has she been? What has she been doing?
The demand for change from New Zealanders was plain to see.
It had been staring at us in the face since, I suggest, the protests at Parliament last February.
The main change demanded, I suggest, although our political media class won’t acknowledge it unless they denounce us as racists, as well, is that Kiwis have had enough of ‘Aotearoa’, ‘Waka Kotahi’, and the like.
These are things we were never consulted about and asked whether we agreed.
Calling New Zealanders ‘racists’ might have sealed their lips – but it didn’t stop them rebelling against what their self-righteous ‘betters” dictates.
They voted in droves to repudiate Labour.
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October 16, 2023 9:10am
- Swifty
  
  I quite agree.
  
  Tova expressing surprise at the result and saying that no-one saw it coming flies in the face of all that we’ve seen and all that we have been saying over the last 24 months or so.
  
  It’s a total admission that she hasn’t been paying attention.
  
  Quite extraordinary.
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:41am
  - David Garrett
    
    Swifty: “No-one saw it coming..” Utter nonsense. Bob Jones certainly did: proclaiming to all who would listen over the past few weeks that it would be a landslide for the Nats…but certainly failing to see the great success of TPM.
    
    I actually find it quite disturbing that that complete idiot Waititi – he’s as thick as a sackful of hammers – got north of a 10,000 majority.
    
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    October 16, 2023 12:48pm
- cmm
  
  Tova confuses “political analyst” with “political activist”.
  
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  October 16, 2023 11:33am
- I remember when
  
  “Calling New Zealanders ‘racists’ might have sealed their lips -”
  
  It didn’t seal their lips, it simply drove the conversation ‘underground,’ which allowed the use of the misinformation and disinformation arguments and may not have been accidental.
  
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  October 16, 2023 2:30pm
Benedict Yu

From this hysteria you would think that Seymour is proposing to abolish the Treaty. I would not vote for that. Indeed it would be resoundingly defeated.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/133123493/it-could-lead-to-violence-james-shaws-warning-about-acts-treaty-of-waitangi-referendum

The proposed referendum is to establish a new Act. The “Treaty Principles Act”.

https://www.act.org.nz/act_proposes_referendum_on_co_governance

It is very sensible and the referendum would be a landslide win. James Shaw knows that so he behaves like a thug.

I would like to see Luxon explain which parts of the synopsis of the Bill that he objects to. I would bet a char su pork bun that all we would get is word soup. ☹️
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October 16, 2023 9:22am
- nathie
  
  So in other words the Greens, TPM and the MSM are leading a disinformation campaign.
  
  So it begins …
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:29am
  - Lance
    
    The Greens and TPM are deliberately and bald faced lying again… colour me shocked.
    //
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:49am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  The current Waitangi Tribunal Treaty is a rogue Treaty. It was re-written and then “Forestry and Fisheries” added by Hugh Kawharu. Geoffrey Palmer then tampered with it adding ‘Articles’ which are just hogwash.
  The original 1840 Treaty in Maori and the Littlewood Draft should be the place to go.
  No Forestry and Fisheries then the Gravy Train stops. The handouts stop. The Maori only fishing areas stop. The customary fishing rights stop.
  
  53 minutes Benedict. I know I have posted this before, but many will not have seen it.
  The sequence of events. Go 12 minutes in.
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVgY03s6Tqc
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:14am
- Drone
  
  Was this James Shaw’s “Rivers of Blood” speech, for those who can remember Enoch Powell.. Inciting racial violence could be considered a hate crime.
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:40am
  - David Garrett
    
    Drone: If you substitute Muslim immigration for West Indian, Enoch Powell was 100% right…just a couple of decades out.
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:55am
    - gravedodger
      
      Powell had a formidable intellect, no longer fashionable apparently.
      A classical scholar who rose to rank of Brigadier in WW2.
      
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      October 16, 2023 12:20pm
- Swifty
  
  “From this hysteria you would think that Seymour is proposing to abolish the Treaty.”
  
  That’s exactly what I’ve read some people claiming. They are either lying or are dreadfully misinformed.
  
  It’s either misinformation or deliberate disinformation, one or the other. I favour the latter. I think they are deliberately lying to buttress their case and to whip up alarm and resistance within the citizenry.
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:46am
Maggie Pie

And amazingly, I see from figures leaked this morning, Labor’s internal polling still has them in the mid-30’s
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October 16, 2023 9:26am
- nathie
  
  On those trends betcha tomorrows Talbot Mills poll has Labour breaking into the 40’s!
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:31am
  - Lance
    
    Labour was robbed… robbed they say… robbed!
    //
    
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    October 16, 2023 9:51am
    - Ghost
      
      I say they were murdered. Luxton was destroyed by Meager by 9,570 votes. Meagan woods holding on by 1,423 votes. Ardern/clark’s seat labour are holding by 106 votes. The loss of the Maori seats. I hope forensics are called in because labour were murdered. Time to draw the white outlines outside all their offices.
      
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      October 16, 2023 10:02am
      - Taieri
        
        Luxton was destroyed by Meager by 9,570 votes.
        ———
        
        But isn’t she likely to become a list MP?
        
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        October 16, 2023 10:11am
      - Ghost
        
        Yeah, she returns to being list. But in return we finally have a decent mp again.
        
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        October 16, 2023 10:21am
      - hullkiwi
        
        You could add in:
        
        1. Wood in that safe bastion of Mt Roskill & he will not be back on the list (how sad, not).
        2. Twyford in TeAtatu
        3. The outgoing MPs in Northcote, Upper Harbour, Maungakikihe and Takanini
        
        They and their staff will all be unemployed in 3 weeks. That is politics and that is the consequences.
        
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        October 16, 2023 10:55am
- mogg
  
  You’re right, Labour have internal polling which shows that they are the new government.
  
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  October 16, 2023 11:09am
- Mrs_Right
  
  I say Labour needs to change their polling company 😀
  
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  October 16, 2023 3:30pm
Benedict Yu

Yesterday I had lunch in this cafe on the highway through the Buller Gorge.

https://berlins.co.nz/

It is about as ‘middle of nowhere’ as you can get in New Zealand. I was unaware that there were uranium mines there.

The owner of the cafe was happily shovelling coal into the fire. It would have given James Shaw an apoplexy. 😂

BTW driving yesterday I experienced the heaviest sustained rain I have ever seen. When it rains around those parts it really rains. 😳
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October 16, 2023 9:29am
- David Garrett
  
  Bene: If you really want “middle of nowhere” – at least in the North Island – you can’t beat Whangamomona, about mid-way between Taumarannui and Stratford. A pub with good food there.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:39am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    The freight train stops there, when my brother wants a pie.
    
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    October 16, 2023 5:04pm
- NothingLeft
  
  West Coast averages something like 10m rainfall per year between 900 and 1200m altitude.
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:55am
- lifesgood
  
  Oooh, I love the idea of sitting by a coal fire. Such happy memories.
  
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  October 16, 2023 12:27pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Bit before your time, I ‘spose
  
  West Coast uranium rush, 1955–56
  
  https://teara.govt.nz/en/radioactive-minerals/page-2
  
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  October 16, 2023 1:08pm
- gravedodger
  
  Don’t think it was ever mined Ben, more like assessing potential in the dig.
  I recall the headlines of Jacobson and his partner Cassin discovering it , low grade ore , and very limited in quantity
  Two adjacent peaks named to honour the two men.
  
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  October 16, 2023 1:09pm
RoboRob

I have major questions around the polls. Especially those that came out in the last week. The Gaurdian poll bears no resemblance to the actual result and its predictions are way outside the margin of error (Nat 35, Lab 30, Lab+Grn+Tpm > 50%). The Talbot Mills polls were even worse, in that they consistently delivered the left much better results than most other polls.

Talbot (labours polling company and run by Labour people) was clearly manufacturing public poll results that suited Labour. I am sure their private polls were much more accurate.

The Gaurdians poll seemed made up and designed to encourage left wing voters to ‘come out and vote, all is not lost’. It came out 2-3 days prior to the election and should have been one of the most accurate polls.

We need to have a look at this in future elections and perhaps do something to deal with polls designed as advertising or propaganda.
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October 16, 2023 9:32am
- Prince
  
  Roy Morgan poll, oddly published late on Friday, had National at 30.5% (they got 39%). Greens at 15% (they got 11%).
  But the most unprofessional would be Talbot Mills with their juvenile Dinosaur question.
  I trust the new Govt will ensure any work commissioned for Talbot Mills would be identified and flushed out.
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:09am
  - 70andstilllearning
    
    RM used data from 4 Sept to 8 Oct and larger sample size than normal – think the time spread just averaged the responses out for Nationals number and more likely reflected the anti Labour mode with voters just not sure where they would drop that vote until the last minute . Suspect they won’t be running an article similar to their 2020 one …. given the National number was so far out 🙂
    https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/roy-morgan-poll-most-accurate-on-nz-election-predicting-a-crushing-labour-majority-for-pm-jacinda-ardern
    
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    October 16, 2023 11:10am
pdm

Afghanistan beat England in Cricket World Cup!!!!

Is that the biggest upset in cricket since Holland beat a full strength Australia in the early 1970’s?
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October 16, 2023 9:38am
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  I can only imagine that Afghanistan have a lot of expat Indian and Pakistani players.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:42am
- Dudley Quaffquaff
  
  Whatever happened to boycotting Afghanistan because they wouldn’t let women play?
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:22am
  - MCōs
    
    I have been wondering that.
    Mind you they don’t let men play either
    The team is made up of expats who never actually play in Afghanistan
    
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    October 16, 2023 12:50pm
Maggie Pie

According to the Horrid’s political editor…..the names being put forward to replace Chippy are Penne Henare and Carmel Sepuloni.

Doesn’t take long for the knives to come out.
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October 16, 2023 9:45am
- Blog-aholic
  
  So a trougher and a gopher.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:53am
- Gravelroad
  
  Don’t know about Peeni but Carmel Sepuloni is deeply unimpressive.
  Just like the Party she represents.
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:08am
  - David Garrett
    
    Gravel: In person Carmel Sepuloni is not an unpleasant person…but she is as dumb as a sackfull of hammers.
    
    Remember when it came out that she had done internet searches on the sentences for benefit fraud when he mother, one Beverly Sepuloni of New Plymouth, was up on benefit fraud charges?
    
    How dumb do you have to be to do such searches yourself, and not get some staffer to do them??
    
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    October 16, 2023 10:52am
- I remember when
  
  Hard to understand why they have started with the more unlikely candidates.
  They both lack depth across the full range of political topics.
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:25am
BananaLlama

Baw the poor wee lad over at Dailyblog hasn’t blogged since the election results came in.
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October 16, 2023 9:53am
- RichardF
  
  He probably threw his laptop and phone across the room in disgust and can’t afford to buy a new one.
  
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  October 16, 2023 1:53pm
Jethrod

Just a comment on the minor parties.
They raised barely 5% of the vote, the largest being TOP with 46000 odd votes across NZ. This would have been enough, if concentrated, to win 2 seats.
The people who organize and run these parties need to do some sole searching and come to the conclusion that it is just not worth it. Single issue parties are not going to cut it in the rough and tumble of national politics.
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October 16, 2023 10:07am
bennerg

Doing a little analysis of the election figures: as a point of interest as to the “relevance” of the Maori Party result, they obtained only 2.5% of the Party vote (52K votes), while TOP had 2% (41K votes), and Liz Gunn’s Loyal Party 1.1% (22K votes).

So just between Top and NZ Loyal there were way more people wanting their policies than the Maori Party.

The ability for the Maori Party to get electorate seats by providing a separate ethnic category shows up just how much a reform is needed, as per the original recommendations for MMP. I hope this forms part of the referendum planned for the Treaty issues.

It also shows just how much relevance should be given to the Maori Party members, in comparison to the one’s who really earned their place to represent the people of this nation.
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October 16, 2023 10:18am
- I remember when
  
  Looking at the breakdown of ethnicity produced by DPF, if the Maori seats had been abolished for this election Maori would have achieved their proportional representation this Election.
  
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  October 16, 2023 10:48am
I remember when

Latest posting on Bassett Brash & Hide by Barrie Saunders.
“What the history of the human race has shown us is that the market economy and a quality democracy has produced better results that all the alternatives.”

The way forward.
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October 16, 2023 10:18am
Chuck Bird

I am very pleased to see the results. However, I hope Luxon changes his view about that we have a climate change emergency and that too rapid change has downsides.

Did anyone see the item about battery fires on the Sunday show? It was about house fires. Imagine what fire would be like in an underground carpark with over 50% EVs.
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October 16, 2023 10:18am
NothingLeft

Conflict is stalemating in Ukraine as mud season starts. Ukraine’s summer-autumn offensive gained only a few hundred km² in south, and now Russia has launched last-ditch major assault effort to try and gain some PR victories prior to forced halt of mud season, losing enormous numbers of soldiers and heavy arms with basically nothing to show for it.

But tellingly Russian artillery and tanks have been so heavily attrited and degraded over summer as well as burning through cold war stocks that they are now firing less artillery than Ukraine – having started war with a 10-15x advantage. Russia is scraping the bottom of it’s barrel of serviceable weapons, and now having to get supplies from North Korea
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F8YNHkzW0AASUcs?format=jpg&name=medium

It’s really devolved to 1st world war style trench warfare along 1000km front. Almost impossible to advance through minefields with accurate artillery missiles and bombs taking out any large concentrations of troops and heavy equipment have very short life once in range of artillery or FPV drones with ubiquitous drone reconnaissance making it impossible to hide. All that’s left is small groups of soldiers slowly clearing out opposition trenches in close-combat attacks too small and fleeting to be effectively targeted by big weapons.

Ukraine continues to rapidly develop drone tech to make up for lack of airforce and artillery supply, and are getting longer and longer range to hit targets in Russia – Russia is going to suffer through an unpleasant winter as it’s energy infrastructure is targeted.

Ukraine need some way of getting many heavy bombs into Russian trenches to rapidly clear them to have any chance of breaking through, or greatly increased supply of mortars and artillery, none of which will happen short term, though they are getting more and more longer-range missiles supplied that help to target logistics and rear-operating bases.

Expect conflict to grind on for another year – with Russia slowly losing ground as they run out of equipment and Ukraine slowly improving their drone tech. Provided of course that West keeps supplying Ukraine.
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October 16, 2023 10:27am
- Taieri
  
  Provided of course that West keeps supplying Ukraine
  ————
  
  And providing that Ukraine doesn’t run out of the fighting age people…
  
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  October 16, 2023 11:29am
Suze Wainwright

So Tamatha won’t speak to journalists who are ‘hurtful’ to the people she represents and are not aligned with Green Party values.

I hope she won’t find Parlt too boring and not quite as exciting as she thought it would be… (bit like her mate Tory and her attitudes to the Wellington mayoralty).

I suppose being in opposition will still allow her to be shrill
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October 16, 2023 10:32am
- Blog-aholic
  
  Looks like the turkeys voted for Christmas in central Wellington.
  
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  October 16, 2023 11:45am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Looks like the turkeys voted for Christmas in central Wellington.
    And NZ. My neighbor is not talking to me!
    
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    October 16, 2023 5:10pm
- rockape
  
  She will sit on the back seats with her mouth zipped and only speak when spoken too. Looks like she is good at talking but lousy at being interviewed or questioned. She will not be an asset for the opposition. I suspect the new speaker will send her to the naughty corner at regular intervals as her behaviour smacks of the spoilt child more than an Mp.
  
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  October 16, 2023 5:19pm
- ecco
  
  Paul was all about Te Reo whilst on the WCC. Did untold damage to Wellington whilst on the council. Thought it was funny that a Wellington poster on here was relieved to see her go to the backbenches of parliament! Probably a good thing for Welly.
  Mayor Whanau and the likes to Paul are getting it done through extensive social media campaigns targetted at millennials to get their votes.
  
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  October 16, 2023 6:03pm
- rouppe
  
  That’s just standard left wing dissembling.
  
  Jacinda did it.
  All those protest groups that shout others down do it.
  Anyone who refuses to engage with different opinions and beliefs does it.
  
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  October 16, 2023 7:29pm
I remember when

The cupboard is rather bare for the Labour Party when it comes to selecting a new leader.
Quite frankly, leaving Chris Hipkins in place while the dust settles would seem like a reasonable decision.
Otherwise, they will have to persuade Grant Robertson to take the reins at least for the first year.
After that it is Barbara Edmonds (inexperienced) or either Kieran McAnulty or Ginny Andersen who are both damaged and still have to get back in.
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October 16, 2023 10:40am
- 70andstilllearning
  
  They lost so many electorate seats they’re back in Parliament on the list – but it will be interesting to see how they work it out given most (all?) of them are damaged goods …
  
  https://electionresults.govt.nz/successful-candidates.html
  
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  October 16, 2023 11:30am
Lance

France lose to South Africa at the RWC…..
Sacre Bleu
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October 16, 2023 10:40am
- emmess
  
  Why do idiotic commentators reveal the result of the other game before it has played of free to air TV?
  Happened yesterday and today.
  
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  October 16, 2023 11:52am
  - gravedodger
    
    My daughter is a sports nut so just plays music and records games, there are solutions beyond expecting the rest of us to not discuss current events?
    
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    October 16, 2023 1:17pm
    - emmess
      
      First of all, I did record the England-Fiji and Wales-Argentina games.
      How hard is it to not mention the result?
      
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      October 16, 2023 8:09pm
- NothingLeft
  
  Really enjoying the near total irrelevancy of the RWC to NZ – media and interest have died to the point that I have no idea who’s playing, where they’re playing, what the results are and the tedious neutral weather-like rugby discussion that used to be part of NZ culture is almost non-existent now.
  
  It’s near-as- damn dead, 20 years of pay-TV profit taking killed off the audience and the culture.
  
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  October 16, 2023 12:59pm
  - emmess
    
    Do you prefer woman’s soccer?
    They were trying to push that low quality rubbish on us at every opportunity.
    
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    October 16, 2023 8:06pm
- Guy Montag
  
  Does this mean that England are now the number one team from the Northern Hemisphere?
  
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  October 16, 2023 1:12pm
  - MCōs
    
    No
    https://www.theroar.com.au/rugby-union/world-rugby-rankings/
    
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    October 16, 2023 5:23pm
  - hookerphil
    
    The only team.
    
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    October 16, 2023 5:45pm
mogg

Not a good day for the virtue signalling, woke, Chardonnay swigging Marxists. Cindy will be running around hugging people.
I listened to Luxon this morning he made not one mention of ‘working groups’, enquires reporting back in 12 months, or ‘very difficult and complex issues.’ No mention of White Supremacy groups, hate speech, misinformation, disinformation, not even racism at any point, he has got a lot to learn.
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October 16, 2023 10:52am
- Suze Wainwright
  
  I predict the next 3 years will be defiant, stroppy, disobedient bolshiness from Green and TPM MPs. Possibly a bit of moping disinterest from Labour MPs.
  
  NZ First possibly is required to put Green/TPM in their place. National/ACT MPs would simply be too polite.
  
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  October 16, 2023 11:10am
  - David Garrett
    
    FFS…I do wish people would learn that “disinterest[ed]” does NOT mean “not interested”…it means a lack of partiality, i.e. impartial
    
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    October 16, 2023 12:10pm
    - Suze Wainwright
      
      Sorry sir
      
      8 0
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      October 16, 2023 12:14pm
      - Inandout
        
        Suze, at least us nombies get a few minutes to correct our grammar.
        
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        October 16, 2023 1:05pm
- Prince
  
  Also nothing about ‘six years of waste and corruption’.
  He’ll learn.
  
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  October 16, 2023 12:00pm
I remember when

How quickly we have gone from the Northern Hemisphere showing the way.
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October 16, 2023 10:57am
Swifty

Is it just me or is Tamihere looking quite old and a bit crook all of a sudden?

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/te-pati-maori-surge-not-over-yet-as-party-looks-to-stand-candidates-in-general-seats-for-2026-election-tamihere/DXRXOV2UHZCZZALYBUM3NXPO5E/
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October 16, 2023 10:58am
- Lance
  
  I do know he used to be the voice of reason and had many practical suggestions for urban Māori.
  He seems to have ‘gone off into the weeds’ of resent and is yelling ‘racism’ at anything and everything that doesn’t suit his new radical, anti-democratic agenda.
  
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  October 16, 2023 11:14am
- emmess
  
  Don’t know about crook, but definitely crooked.
  
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  October 16, 2023 11:49am
  - NothingLeft
    
    His stewardship of Waipareira Trust looks very very dodgy.
    
    There is a great need in NZ to have all of dodginess surrounding mates of Labour over last 6 years thoroughly investigated – where it seems pretty clear there was a lot of turning of blind eyes over at minimum highly unethical behavior that needs to be properly aired and if necessary prosecuted.
    
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    October 16, 2023 12:16pm
    - gravedodger
      
      There is a veritable mountain of money never accounted for that needs sunlight.
      Lets begin with uncle Shane’s Three Billion PGF, that is some serious “Movie” hireage right there.
      
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      October 16, 2023 1:20pm
      - NothingLeft
        
        Sadly we won’t be allowed to look into grimy NZF doings 2017-20. with 6,5% Winston has a get out of jail free card.
        
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        October 16, 2023 1:46pm
- ecco
  
  Tamihere – total champagne socialist. We’ve seen him dining out with a big group of whanau in a top Auckland eaterie, so not short of a buck for that sort of thing.
  
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  October 16, 2023 6:08pm
nathie

So about Labour’s decision not to put their Maori electorate candidates on the List – well that backfired bigtime didn’t it!

Labour have lost some longtime Maori MP’s.

Did Labour not realise it largely worked in 2020 because voters were riding Ardern’s Covid wave? Whereas in 2023 Ardern’s Covid wave had already went out with the tide …. before the tsunami of change annihilated Labour’s support across the nation?

So surely heads must roll within Labour for pushing this?

Will the MSM ask Labour hard questions on this (like they would if it were National stuffing up)?
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October 16, 2023 11:02am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Remember Willie Jackson was coordinating the Maori Electoral campaign.
  
  Willie Jackson and John Tamihere are tight, very tight.
  
  Willie’s loyalty has never been to Labour/ the working man, but always to Maori sovereignty.
  
  I’m pretty sure the move to the Maori Party has been well coordinated from players within Ardern’s Maori caucus as well as folk who fell foul of Labour’s leaders ( such John Tamihere, Meka Whaitiri).
  
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  October 16, 2023 1:31pm
- alwyn.a
  
  Some of the Labour Maori electorate candidates were on the list, and one at least of the losers is back in Parliament as a list MP.
  I think that 4 of the 7 were on the list, of whom Tirakatene is in Parliament as a list MP, and 3 of the 7 did not go on the list.
  
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  October 16, 2023 2:54pm
Maggie Pie

On a brighter note coming out of the Middle East…..REUTERS reporting that Israel’s inflation rate has unexpectedly fallen and will likely flow thru to lower mortgage interest rates.
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October 16, 2023 11:17am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Stop Co-Governance. Julian Batchelor.
We know why Maori don’t want it touched! Forestry and Fisheries Gravy Train!
The Waitangi Tribunal Treaty rogue version is actually illegal.
Tribal rule in action! Will Luxon cave in?
There must be a referendum, so we all get a say

https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/blog/maori-threatening-violence-if-treaty-of-waitangi-is-touched/?
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October 16, 2023 11:18am
- David Garrett
  
  Steve O: I have just Googled Mr Batchelor…or perhaps I should say the Rev. Batchelor? I find he is an evangelical Christian – unfortunately a very easy target for those who would wish to take him on.
  
  That is not for a moment to say what he is saying is wrong; based on my reasonably good knowledge of both treaty jurisprudence and NZ history he is spot on…but he is completely the wrong guy to be leading a movement designed to knock co-governance on the head.
  
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  October 16, 2023 12:30pm
  - DimChappie
    
    Here is his email address:
    [Mod – please confirm you have permission to post his email address]
    
    Please tell him he is unsuitable for the role. This brave individual has held meetings across the country and distributed over 500,000 booklets on the treaty. He has suffered death threats and violent protests on the way. Few voters had heard of Co-Governance before he started and it ended up as a major election issue thanks to him. He should be New Zealander of the Year.
    
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    October 16, 2023 1:49pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Julians email address is on the webpage for anyone to contact him.
      
      julian@stopcogov.kiwi
      
      He has others including g-mail which I won’t post here, but as I say the webpage one is for anyone to use.
      He also has cellphone numbers. Not sure if they are on the webpage, but they are on the google machine.
      
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      October 17, 2023 7:56am
  - Ghost
    
    I agree David. He will only ever appeal to a small minority of people and won’t get the masses behind him.
    
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    October 16, 2023 2:52pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      It’s getting bigger Ghost, and Stop Co-Governance does not just stop because the Election is over. Expect Luxon and National to get quite a bit of heat over this.
      Different ball game now. Labour can not protect Maori anymore.
      
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      October 17, 2023 7:59am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    I know Julian is an evangelist, but that does not worry me. I am not a man of faith.
    Having met him I know he is genuine. Shake his hand will tell you.
    I asked him why. He said he is committed, the Treaty we have now is a lie.
    To knock Co-Governance on the head he is making NZ aware of the lies and corruption, especially regarding the Waitangi Tribunal. That is just a free-for-all.
    
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    October 17, 2023 7:46am
cmm

Herald:
“Premium: Inflation data to reveal scale of problem for new National-led Government”

Well that’s one way to put it.

Another, more honest, way to phrase it would have been:

“Premium: Inflation data to reveal what a but hole Labour dug for us.”
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October 16, 2023 11:26am
Maggie Pie

CHECK THIS OUT!

I’ll tell you who is having a real ol’ gloat on Twitter….

One time labor MP Gaurav Sharma 😀 😀 😀

https://twitter.com/gmsharmanz
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October 16, 2023 11:55am
Sparrow

Is this a strange piece of fate. All Black’s beaten by France and South Africa beaten by Ireland in the round robin round. Then the winners get beaten by the loosers.
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October 16, 2023 12:02pm
- Libertarians are right
  
  Makes sense. Both groups had a predetermined top 2. The quarters were the games the teams should have been peaking for.
  
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  October 16, 2023 1:12pm
Steve Todd

On Saturday night, Nostradamus had a bit fun at both my and hullkiwi’s expense, regarding overhang seats. hullkiwi suggested there would be several, if not many, overhang seats; In response, I had stated there would be no overhang seats.

At the moment, Te Pāti Māori has four Electorate seats, one of which is an overhang seat (and 58,949 Party votes). That is because the 120th highest quotient is 8871.60 (National = 50), and at that point, Te Pāti Māori had only been allocated three seats (the third seat being the 91st highest quotient – 58949 / 7 = 11789.80).

The 121st highest quotient is 8811.48 (ACT NZ = 11). If we multiply 8811.49 by 7, we get 61680.43. So, if Te Pāti Māori had received just 2,732 more Party votes on Saturday, giving the party 61,681 votes, their fourth Electorate seat would not have been an overhang seat.

Te Pāti Māori does well on Special votes (see, for example, https://publicaddress.net/legalbeagle/election-23-the-special-votes/). In 2020, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer came into Parliament on the List, once the Special votes had been counted.

Therefore, assuming the party does not also pick up Tāmaki Makaurau and/or Te Tai Tokerau, I am confident that my assertion, back on Friday evening, that there will be no overhang seats in the next parliament, will prove to be correct.

(If the party does pick up those two seats, the overhang will, in my view, be two seats, not three.)
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October 16, 2023 12:03pm
- Littletramp
  
  If a large proportion of special votes come from the “out of electorate” votes of prisoners serving less than 3 yr sentences, is it unreasonable to think TPM may get the party vote from a number of these voters?
  
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  October 16, 2023 1:05pm
  - Steve Todd
    
    Short answer: taking your question at face value, in my view, yes. I would think that most special votes in the Māori electorates would come from late enrolments.
    
    I’ll be a doing a breakdown of overseas special votes after 3 November. I can’t remember if prisoner votes are separated out from other Special votes, but if they are, I’ll take a look.
    
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    October 16, 2023 1:45pm
  - Steve Todd
    
    Littletramp: I’ve just had a quick look at the Electoral Act 1993. Prisoners are enrolled in their previous electorate (see https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0087/latest/LMS370163.html.), so would, in the great majority of cases, cast ordinary votes, not special votes.
    
    That explains why I couldn’t remember if Prisoner votes are separated out – they aren’t (but they used to be, years ago), because they are not special votes.
    
    Sorry to disappoint.
    
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    October 16, 2023 2:30pm
    - rouppe
      
      But isn’t anyone who votes out of electorate a special vote?
      
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      October 16, 2023 7:08pm
      - Steve Todd
        
        Yes. I messed up there. I have corrected myself below.
        
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        October 16, 2023 9:31pm
  - MCōs
    
    There’s less than ten thousand prisoners
    Even if all of them voted, and that’s a mighty big *if*, that represents 2% of special votes max
    
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    October 16, 2023 2:34pm
  - Steve Todd
    
    Littletramp: On further reading, I note that prisoners outside their electorates do indeed cast special votes. How many are cast, and for which parties they are given, I have no idea.
    
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    October 16, 2023 3:28pm
- alwyn.a
  
  Sorry, but whatever happens in the Maori seats there will be at least one overhang seat.
  It will be held by whoever wins the Port Waikato by-election.
  
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  October 16, 2023 2:46pm
  - Steve Todd
    
    No. When the official result is declared on 3 November, National will have its proportional seat entitlement – currently, 45 Electorate and 5 List.
    
    The additional seat it receives as a result of the Port Waikato by-election, will be just that, an additional seat, not an overhang seat (such as would be the case if, currently, National had 51 Electorates, but remained proportionally only entitled to 50 seats).
    
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    October 16, 2023 3:48pm
    - rouppe
      
      I’m sorry, but I thought that was the definition of an overhang seat – more seats than allowed for proportionally.
      
      https://elections.nz/democracy-in-nz/what-is-new-zealands-system-of-government/how-are-mps-elected/
      
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      October 16, 2023 7:12pm
      - Steve Todd
        
        No, overhang seats are when a party wins more Electorate seats (at a General Election) than the number of seats it is proportionally entitled to. At the moment, National has 45 Electorate seats and is proportionally entitled to 50 seats. No overhang.
        
        After the Special votes are counted, National may finish up with 51 seats in total, 47 of which are Electorate seats. Still no overhang.
        
        The Port Waikato by-election is a separate election. Assuming National wins it, then, in my opinion, it would be regarded as an additional seat for the party. It could not be regarded as an overhang seat (even though the total number of seats in Parliament goes up one), in any event, because, using my example, above, it would be National’s 48th Electorate seat and the Party would have 52 seats in total.
        
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        October 16, 2023 10:00pm
bjools

Something to stir the pot with
Since many qualified NZers moved overseas in the past 3 years.
Wouldn’t it be logical to assume they would vote against the party (Labour) that drove them out?
ie
Special votes favour National and ACT, meaning they gain seats and not lose them, as is being postulated at the moment.
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October 16, 2023 12:50pm
- Mrs_Right
  
  National/Act may lose a seat once the special votes are counted.
  
  But….
  
  Will National/Act get additional couple of seats from the wasted vote and one more seat from the Port Waikato by election? Potentially looking at additional two seats?
  
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  October 16, 2023 1:26pm
  - Steve Todd
    
    Mrs_Right: The seats are allocated to those parties which cross the 5%, or one-seat Electorate, threshold, i.e., on the basis of the Effective Party Vote, not the total of Party votes cast.
    
    As at now, 2,254,441 Party Votes have been counted. The successful parties have 2,135,058 of them (94.70%). That means, currently, 119,383 Party votes (5.30%) are ‘wasted’.
    
    The current seat allocation (National 50, Labour 34, etc.) is based on the 2,135,058 Effective Party Votes, of which National’s share is 41.14% (878,288 / 2,135,058). (National’s share of all Party Votes so far counted is 38.96% (878,288 / 2,254,441).)
    
    So, no party will get an additional seat, or seats, “from the wasted vote”. This time, however, National might well gain an extra seat from the Special votes, and will, of course, win the Port Waikato by-election.
    
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    October 16, 2023 4:50pm
    - Mrs_Right
      
      Thanks for your answer 🙂
      
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      October 16, 2023 5:23pm
- MCōs
  
  Only about 15-20% of the special votes are from people resident offshore
  
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  October 16, 2023 2:26pm
  - Rusty
    
    @MCos
    
    Personally I think every vote from us is a special vote.
    
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    October 16, 2023 4:09pm
bjools

Went on the standard, so you don’t have to suffer that nauseous feeling you get.
They live in hope/delusion .
“As it stands right now with the indecisive election result, we’re probably into having a caretaker government for some time. ”
Looking at what is happening now and the comparison to the 110 working groups, I’d say we will be waiting a lot less time than we did for Jacinda to start work.
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October 16, 2023 12:55pm
- Blog-aholic
  
  They live in hope/delusion. Sums up the Labour/Green/Maori bloc.
  
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  October 16, 2023 1:23pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Kiri Allan has a new gig…

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/former-labour-mp-kiri-allan-launches-new-consultancy-business-months-after-losing-cabinet-position/AXGQI5WIY5EAHJD2YLT5R336YY/
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October 16, 2023 1:18pm
- Ghost
  
  Weird, I could have sworn she was going to be an AA driving instructor
  
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  October 16, 2023 1:20pm
- bjools
  
  Consulting on…….
  Dealing with loss?
  1st….Cabinet position
  2nd….MP’s position
  3rd….Drivers licence
  Any others?Well to cope, she will have company.
  Remember
  The five stages – denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance – are often talked about as if they happen in order, moving from one stage to the other. You might hear people say things like ‘Oh I’ve moved on from denial and now I think I’m entering the angry stage’. But this isn’t often the case.
  
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  October 16, 2023 2:09pm
- fightingtemeraire
  
  I wouldn’t use her for all the tea in China
  
  Maybe she can employ some of the unemployed High Achievers now on the scrap heap from the Labour Party.
  
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  October 16, 2023 2:36pm
- JimBobJoe
  
  “With the tagline “efficient and effective: solving your problems”, the site for her business promises to provide “strategic advice” to help businesses “cut through to solutions”. She would be able to advise on economic growth and regional development.”
  
  Cut through to Solutions??? A Labour Minister who was part of Government that won power promising to build 100,000 new houses under its Kiwibuild programme!!!!
  
  Like Kiri – Kiwibuild is a Tui Billboard Ad…
  
  Anyone paying Kiri to provide solutions is buying a dog that wont hunt
  
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  October 16, 2023 3:47pm
- sirknz
  
  Anybody know if her office is being leased to her by Meng Foon?
  
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  October 16, 2023 4:16pm
- rouppe
  
  This is so ridiculous it’s laughable
  
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  October 16, 2023 6:50pm
- NothingLeft
  
  All Labour MPs had clearly risen far beyond their level of competence. Who (outside of muppet organisations) would hire such omnishambolic failures?
  
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  October 16, 2023 7:04pm
Maggie Pie

Had to larf 😀
My partner’s mum just txt to say she was listening to ZB’s wokeist-leftard Tim Roxbruh last nite….sounded like he was having to poke a few dead rats up his bum. And it’s the same now with Andrew Dickinson on noon.

LOL!!
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October 16, 2023 1:21pm
Chris Nisbet

Interesting – I just cancelled my ESG-infected investment that I have with the ASB. When asked about the reason why I wanted to close it down I told them that the recent email I got where they told me they would be applying an ESG focus to their investments spurred me into action. I told them my money wasn’t a plaything to be used on trying to fix the climate etc. Oh, and BTW, the stinking thing had made a 5% loss over the last two years (No, it wasn’t in a ‘growth’ fund, just ‘moderate’).

Anyway, what I found interesting was that when I asked if others had given similar reasons for closing down their investments the nice woman on the other end of the phone told me I was the first.
Cripes, nobody has ever accused me of being a financial expert, but am I really a lone soul who isn’t prepared to stomach the ESG nonsense!?
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October 16, 2023 1:38pm
- Tauhei Notts
  
  wtf is ESG?
  
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  October 16, 2023 2:11pm
  - Chris Nisbet
    
    Environmental, social and Governance.
    Boils down to stuff like this (from an email that ASB sent to me the other day)…
    ”
    Target a reduction in emissions intensity, versus the broad global share market**, of at least 50%.
    
    Deliver a decarbonisation rate of 10% year‑on‑year.
    
    Reduce the Index’s exposure to physical risk arising from extreme weather events by at least 50%.
    
    Increase the weight of companies that are exposed to climate transition opportunities and reduces the weight of companies exposed to climate transition risks.
    
    Shift exposures from “brown” to “green,” at least doubling the exposure to green revenue.
    ”
    
    I also note that their ‘positive impact’ (aka green) investment fund is the worst performer of all their funds, returning less than nothing to investors over the last few years.
    
    I thought I’d quit while the going was bad.
    
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    October 16, 2023 2:31pm
    - Tauhei Notts
      
      Thank you Chris. My investment advisers cautioned me about Aussie coal miners. The coal stocks are doing better than their recommendations.
      Would you class Anheuser Busch as an ESG stock. Their Bud Lite looked a shocker.
      And what about McDonald’s. Their free feeds for members of the Israeli Defence Force has put them in bad light with a number of people. The sort of people with bad taste; taste so bad that like McDonald’s.
      
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      October 16, 2023 8:52pm
      - Chris Nisbet
        
        “Would you class Anheuser Busch as an ESG stock”
        Yep.
        Also, look out for paris-aligned investments. This means they’re less interested in their fiduciary duty than they are in fixing climate change.
        
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        October 17, 2023 7:56am
  - miltonF
    
    ESG is code name for “left wing investment” (Environmental, SOCIAL governance) socialism is in the name.
    
    It’s when they take your money and use it to fund left wing political goals and organisations that promote green/trans/Marxist/indigenous ideals. Companies like Bud Light for example.
    
    If you actually want to get a return on your investment, you must avoid all ESG (socialist) investments, for the obvious reason of “go woke go broke”.
    
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    October 16, 2023 7:10pm
mogg

An excellent free to read from the ‘Spectator’
“It’s okay to drink NZ Pinot Noir and go on a South Island holiday again”
https://www.spectator.com.au/author/natasha-poole/
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October 16, 2023 2:10pm
Sparrow

Anybody heard from Cindy and Helen?
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October 16, 2023 2:30pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  These ladies are INTERNATIONAL MEGASTARS.
  They haven’t got time to be bothered with folks like us.
  
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  October 16, 2023 3:17pm
- Rusty
  
  @Sparrow
  
  No haven’t heard from the Mt Albert girls.
  
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  October 16, 2023 4:05pm
- fightingtemeraire
  
  In the bunker with their heads down.
  
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  October 16, 2023 4:13pm
- graham
  
  No, and isn’t it wonderful?!
  
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  October 16, 2023 4:18pm
Warren

It looks like the underage criminals are going to push Nationals crime policy to see what the consequences are like with seven young people are caught after a car conversion on Sunday night with the lowest age of the group being 13 years of age.
https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/10/16/youths-as-young-as-13-among-7-arrested-in-auckland-overnight/
I hope they make a example of what young people can expect if they change their ways.
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October 16, 2023 3:08pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

From my FB:
Nanaia Mahuta MP – Hauraki-Waikato.

Thank You For Following This Page will
Now be (renamed)due to suggestions by followers who want to remain engaged with perspectives I have.
Pai Mārire.

Suggested names …….
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October 16, 2023 3:29pm
- JimBobJoe
  
  {The Pai Mārire movement was a syncretic Māori religion founded in Taranaki by the prophet Te Ua Haumēne. It flourished in the North Island from about 1863 to 1874. Pai Mārire incorporated biblical and Māori spiritual elements and promised its followers deliverance from ‘pākehā’ domination}
  
  Pai Marire wasnt really on Mahutas page surely???
  
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  October 16, 2023 4:07pm
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    Pai Marire – Goodness and Peace.
    
    It’s being revived in the Waikato ….
    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/teahikaa/audio/201842650/it's-something-to-revive-the-tikanga-of-pai-marire
    
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    October 16, 2023 4:33pm
  - Tauhei Notts
    
    I read somewhere that the Hau Hau movement grew out of the Pai Marire.
    
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    October 16, 2023 8:44pm
Ghost

Christoper luxon about to go live

Stuffed
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October 16, 2023 3:30pm
- Ghost
  
  Awww the poor media are having a breakdown that luxon won’t update them or tell them anything about the negotiations.
  
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  October 16, 2023 3:43pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    They asked the same question 25 times and got same ansa!
    What part of ‘fcuk-off’ don’t those incompetant media-clowns understand?
    
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    October 16, 2023 3:57pm
    - Ghost
      
      I had to laugh when they thought they had a leak that Winston was the speaker, shot down over that too. Poor media, no longer being handed what questions to ask and what the answers would be. Pressers are going to be fun to watch now
      
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      October 16, 2023 4:09pm
Maggie Pie

KLA Ltd.

Everything you wanted to know about Kiri Allen’s
problem solving abilities but were afraid to ask….

https://www.kiriallan.com

(English version only. Not available in Te Reo)
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October 16, 2023 3:31pm
- nathie
  
  From the website: “Efficient and effective: Solving your problems”.
  
  And: “A former Cabinet Minister and lawyer, Kiri has committed her professional life to finding solutions to some of the most complex situations and is willing to do this for you too.”
  
  This is freaking awesome, next time I drink drive and smash my car I’m gonna call up her services – after all she has a proven track record of getting the Police to reduce their charges to next to nothing!!
  
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  October 16, 2023 3:54pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Sh!t YES!
    And what about them cut-n-paste ‘Cultural Reports’?
    They’ve gotta be lucrative at 5k a pop 😎
    
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    October 16, 2023 4:39pm
- kevn
  
  Maggie… ‘Relationship Building’.
  Keep trying until one sticks around?
  
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  October 16, 2023 4:45pm
kevn

https://www.kla-bc.com/
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/10072425/officers
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October 16, 2023 4:41pm
- Maggie Pie
  
  Hmmm…wonder if they’re related by any chance?
  
  Appear to both have the same Web-Design-Agency.
  
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  October 16, 2023 9:46pm
Maggie Pie

Watched Luxo’s media-conference before. It was fab to see 😎

First time in 6 years I’ve seen the country’s Prime Minister doing a ‘stand-up’ and not being surrounded by a gaggle of gays.

Just saying.
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October 16, 2023 5:10pm
- Vinicius
  
  Good to hear Luxon ticking off the media for all their speculation and guesses re the coalition talks.
  
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  October 16, 2023 5:16pm
kevn

Maggie… 70% of them were I was told.
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October 16, 2023 5:16pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Well today is great, as was yesterday.
Comments have been allowed that would have Moderators thinking about the KB standards. It has been good.
The problems of the log in, commenting, was just the problem not here?
Or another DOS attack? No matter, it is great now. Why would things be good now but not per Election?
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October 16, 2023 5:19pm
Littletramp

I watched the 4 hour sitdown between Lex Fridman and Jared Kusher on Spotify – only for the political wonks.
https://open.spotify.com/show/2MAi0BvDc6GTFvKFPXnkCL

Lots of revealing info but one point that caught my attention and is very relevant today in NZ (our political coalition talks about to happen between National/Act/NZ First) is around his middle east negotiations.
Kushner was asked why he was so low key & below the radar for a guy right in the thick of the negotiations, and his reply was that the single most important ingredient you must establish to achieve an outcome in any tricky negotiations is trust.
The last thing any party wants to have happen mid negotiation is to be hearing all about it in the media. The parties must feel they are speaking in confidence to allow all cards to be placed on the table to have any hope of success.
Good to hear Luxon adopting this approach to his potential coalition discussions with NZ media.
The grown ups are already back in charge.
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October 16, 2023 5:27pm
Maggie Pie

Just saw that guy John Minto being interviewed on the News….caption read he’s part of the ‘Save Palestinian Movement’ or something?

Honestly, he looked like an xtra from ‘The Walking Dead’.

Just saying.
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October 16, 2023 6:20pm
- rouppe
  
  All the Palestinians need to do is agree to a 2 state solution that includes acknowledging the right of Israel to exist
  
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  October 16, 2023 6:53pm
- kowtow
  
  And then theydid what amounted to the idiot Tv guy’s guide to the conflict , starting with the Bristish mandate but using the phrase Gaza , the world’s largest open air prison.
  
  Utter crap lies as well as mis/disinformation or down right fake news.
  
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  October 16, 2023 7:39pm
igm

The “Stuff” slime have not changed, referencing our new PM by his surname only. It shows how the left have no respect for anyone other than their useless and incompetent left-wing politicians.
They had best become accustomed to Mr Luxon, he will be around for a damn lot longer than Hipkins, Shaw, et al.
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October 16, 2023 6:24pm
- Ghost
  
  What do you want them to call him? And how is this different to stuff calling Jacinda simply ardern?
  
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  October 16, 2023 6:26pm
  - Loddenthinks
    
    I can’t recall ever seeing $1uffed refer to Ardern as Ardern. Invariably Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern, unless I’m grossly mistaken.
    
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    October 16, 2023 11:53pm
    - Ghost
      
      No, they’ve referred to her as ardern
      
      Some headlines
      
      Erasing Little from Labour: Billboard changes come with ‘a little bit of cost
      
      Ardern makes whistle-stop tour of Hawke’s Bay
      
      Ardern ministry starts to take shape
      
      Turnbull’s warm welcome for Ardern underscores continuity in trans-Tasman relations
      
      Ardern asks Cabinet ministers to consider priorities over summer
      
      And when she left office
      
      In pictures: Cheers, hugs and tears as Ardern leaves Parliament to resign
      
      That’s just a one minute google. Btw, as for calling her prime minister. Luxon isn’t prime minister yet, so they can’t call him that.
      
      The truly ironic part is a quick search of igm’s post show igm constantly refers to politicians only by their last name, which is what a number of people here do.
      
      Here is igm calling Luxon. So it appears he wants the media to not do what he himself does.
      
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      October 17, 2023 12:16am
      - Ghost
        
        Here are some more headlines
        
        Some really good questions from Prime Minister Chippy
        
        A man at ease with being called Chippy, vs a man who makes people call him Christopher
        
        Welly hard! Local mayors celebrate Chippy – our prime minister from the Hutt
        
        NZ election 2023 live: Hipkins working from hospital with his sick child
        
        Hipkins takes swipe at ‘coalition of chaos’, campaign trail disruption
        
        Robertson v Willis: Who do you trust to captain the coffers?
        
        Seymour says he won’t work round a table with Winston Peters
        
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        October 17, 2023 12:54am
      - igm
        
        What an irrelevant comment. He was not at that time, elected PM.
        Now he is, regardless of politicaal persuasion, it is common courtesy to reference him as PM, Mr Luxon, or Christopher.
        By the way, he is a elected PM, not selected, or gifted.
        
        0 1
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        October 17, 2023 7:22am
      - Ghost
        
        Rubbish. The media and people on here constantly call politicians by their last name, get over yourself.
        
        You are such a hypocrite as you would call hipkins by his last name, not prime minister not Chris.
        
        0 1
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        October 17, 2023 9:40am
Maggie Pie

A few on ‘X’ seem quite concerned….

STILL nothing heard from twitter bestie Clunt since last Friday 🙁
Perhaps somebody should head over and check on his well-being?

https://twitter.com/ClintVSmith
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October 16, 2023 6:57pm

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