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October 19, 2023 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 19 October 2023

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General Debate

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Warren

Can someone please tell me why the Labour Party loses a election and instead at having a good look for the reasons why you have them making statements like Parliament has a majority again after last week’s Election result.
Labour Rachel Brooking who comfortable won her Dunedin seat for the Labour Party, remarkedthere were “a lot of blue suits” now in Parliament which was a departure from when Labour- which had a more diverse Caucus- held a majority under Labour.
“It’s obviously disappointing to have reached 50-50 and 50% in Cabinet as well but I will challenge them to improve their diversity ” Brooking said.
For fucks sake don’t we wish for the best to run our Country and if no why, because if you look back at the results Labour recieved on the policy they used to divide and install in New Zealand you will see they only thought of themselves and what was in it for them, not the people that were suffering through Labours incompetence, from inflation, education, crime, health,and the economy.
https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/133124359/a-lot-of-blue-suits-parliament-is-majority-male-again-after-nationals-election-success
You should always have ability before diversity and if we do get more females in Cabinet than males I will embrace it if they get there on merit not just because they are females.
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October 19, 2023 8:00am
- Surely Knott
  
  Classic Lefty. Rachel Brooking who appears to be white from Labour party. Complains that there are too many white people in the National party! Lol. If she thinks there are too many white people in govt she should stand down.
  
  But the Maori Party had a record result and turfed Labour out. The fact that Maori have their own Party and seats naturally means you would see less Maori voters in the other parties.
  
  Nevertheless National is also about to go into coalition with Act, led by Maori, and possibly NZ1 , led by Maori. So there will be plenty of Maori influence in a National led govt. Rachel need not worry.
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:36am
  - crikey
    
    Surely Knott: I hope there will be plenty of New Zealand influence in a National-led government.
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:30am
  - Paulus
    
    I thought that New Zealand had only 16% part Maori but that number is suspect as Censuses are incomplete and the figure is possibly exaggerated anyway.
    In possibly 15 years the largest ethnics proportions will be Asian (mainly Indian and Chinese) well out streaming such as part Maori.
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:03am
- rouppe
  
  Why not complain that the Maori party has no ethnic diversity?
  
  Why not complain that females are over represented in the green party?
  
  Clearly because there’s an agenda to that statement of Brooking which tenders it not worth of consideration
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:00am
- Philview
  
  My young adult children are heavily involved in social media so has been interesting to pick up on the left wing agitators misinformation attack lines prominent in their forums in the last week.
  
  1. Chris Luxon is going to ban abortions.
  2. Chris Luxon is going to repeal gay marriage
  3. Chris Luxon is going to outlaw transgender ideology
  4. Chris Luxon is going to slash benefits
  5. Chris Luxon is going to stop any climate change mitigation.
  6. Chris Luxon hates Maoris etc etc
  
  The Left is trying to whip up anger by the sound of it. How long before we get demonstrations.
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:30am
  - Rich Prick
    
    To quote the late Sir Michael Cullen:
    
    “We won, you lost, eat that”.
    
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    October 19, 2023 12:14pm
  - Pope Punctilious II
    
    Well I wish point #3 on your list were true – or at least kick trans ideology out of schools. But fat chance, as Luxon voted FOR the nefarious so-called “Conversion Practices” ban that criminalizes any parents or medical practitioners who are unwilling to “affirm” a child’s gender dysphoria. So did all but one of his front bench.
    
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    October 19, 2023 12:42pm
    - alphabeatrium
      
      Isn’t “affirming” as a boy, a child who is a girl, a form of conversion therapy, and thus illegal?
      
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      October 19, 2023 3:59pm
- cmm
  
  Commies like to take everything, except responsibility.
  
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  October 19, 2023 3:01pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  Maoris are disproportionately represented in Parliament, at the expense of Polynesians.
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:41pm
Scott

Yesterday DPF posted this –

“Who will be Labour’s next leader

Chris Hipkins will stay Labour Leader for a while, because the two main potential leaders are both out of Parliament – Michael Wood and Kiri Allan.”

That made me think about Kiri Allan. She was the minister of justice and yet she crashed her car, ran away from the police and according to reports resisted arrest. In any sensible country that would be a national scandal that dominated the headlines for weeks and weeks.

Here in the People’s socialist Republic of Aotearoa the incident was quickly dismissed by the media and indeed the opposition was attacked for lacking empathy.

It shows how warped we have become as a country when the minister of justice is not held accountable for her actions. Justice needs to be done and justice needs to be blind to a person’s race or sex.

And Kiri Allan is not a future leader of anything.
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October 19, 2023 8:01am
- Ghost
  
  It did dominate the news, as well as media running constant live updates. The case in now before the courts, which is where she should be, not being prosecuted by the media.
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:33am
  - Scott
    
    Ghost – couldn’t disagree more. For example here is yesterday’s headline about Kiri Allan – “Kiri Allan latest ex-Labour minister to move into lobbying”
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/political-roundup-kiri-allan-latest-ex-labour-minister-to-move-into-lobbying/HBUTCMXLNRGQTGWLA2EFOGMGZY/
    
    With anyone else it would be “Disgraced Former Labour Minister to Move into Lobbying”. But she gets a free pass because – “diversity”. A former National minister would get no such favourable treatment.
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:49am
    - Ghost
      
      Her case is before the courts. The media and DPF have already had to retract comments about her case. You only have a month to go before they will start reporting on the court case.
      
      I remember Andrew Fallon, after quiting and the dust cleared a bit the local media wrote a couple of puff pieces on him, the house he had brought.
      
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      October 19, 2023 9:59am
      - peterwn
        
        “The media and DPF have already had to retract comments about her case.” They quoted in good faith information from official sources. When the information was shown to be wrong DPF (at least) published a correction and also graciously apologised being the gentleman he is.
        
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        October 19, 2023 10:24am
      - septic skeptic
        
        My recollection is that the information wasn’t wrong, it just became out of date as the police eventually decided to press ahead with lesser charges. In the case of reckless vs dangerous driving, this was entirely predictable as the charges have (I think) the same max penalty and reckless is much harder to prove in that you have to get inside her head to some extent. In my experience in the car rental industry police never charged drivers with reckless – notwithstanding some very worthy attempts by some customers.
        
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        October 19, 2023 1:18pm
    - Paulus
      
      As a lobbyist she will get a Parliamentary Press Gallery Pass of course.
      
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      October 19, 2023 11:05am
      - peterwn
        
        ex MP lobbyists have one advantage – they retain their access cards (IMO they should not). Chris Hipkins signaled a tougher stance with handing out access cards – wonder whether it actually happened.
        
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        October 19, 2023 11:45am
  - cmm
    
    Well not really…
    
    There are two very different questions here:
    * Is she criminally liable for various charges? That is to be decided by the courts.
    * Is she a fit and proper person to be a leader of a major political party? That is not decided by the courts. That is decided by public opinion.
    
    If people feel she is untrustworthy, then Labour really can’t make her leader (and hope to get anywhere useful).
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:56am
krazykiwi

At the start of the Covid ‘crisis’ there were a few of us calling out the idiocy of the actions taken despite, rather than because of the evidence available. This period morphed into frenzy of vaccine worship, mandates and state supported ostracization of those that dared to point out the swathe of human rights being violated by the government as the medical industrial complex’s freight train plowed through our communities. At the same time, the number of people questioning the uniparty and ‘expert’ driven narrative began to grow.

I posit that many of the growing number joining the anti-narrative crowd recognised that their unquestioning trust had been weaponised against them, and that they had been unwittingly used as narrative promoters.

I was like this with childhood vaccines. Our children, now adults with their own families, received every jab recommended and I was on board with this not because I had confirmed the safety and effectiveness of the products, but partly because I blindly trusted ‘the experts’ and partly because I thought those suggesting caution were crazy loonies, and there was no way I wanted to be seen as loony like them.

After some reflection about 10 years ago I realised that my dismissal of any cautionary words about childhood immunisations were based on an irrational and emotive reaction rather than being informed by evidence. So, I decided to do some research and soon discovered that despite this space being inhabited by a few loonies, the vast majority of dissention against the child vax narrative was based on evidence, some of average quality, but more being what appears be high quality. The real eye-opener for me was the extent to which any contra-narrative messaging was suppressed by authorities and by pharmaceutical companies, journals, and media with the authors subjected to smears and character assignations as if to ward of others from following. Sound familiar?

My message is this: If you get your sense of true north on a topic from mainstream media or powerful commercial/state entities then there is every chance you are being manipulated for the benefit of some other party. To change trajectory is not easy as it involves dedicating time to understand a subject more deeply. There is an easy way to start and for some it might be enough: Recognise that you’ve been programmed to scoff at those with a non-mainstream view and simply stop doing that or go one step further and defend their right to investigate and hold those views.
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October 19, 2023 8:02am
- Master Mariner
  
  Good comment, As for me I was concerned about not getting the vaccine so I could go back overseas too feed my family.
  It was only later I started too look into it, Probably spending too much time in MIQ lottery helped //
  Regarding the ESG, Prior to Covid coming along we got a memo changing our companies Policy, Namely “Zero Harm”. This is impossible due too the nature of our Industry.
  I personally ( As a Senior Master) point blanked refused to agree due too the shear impossibility of the New Policy.
  
  In a nutshell, I was called into Head office and told Nobody agreed with it, But for the company to renew contracts they “Must” change Company Policy too ” Zero Harm”.
  
  Ever wonder where all the Zero this, Zero that comes from ?
  
  No other than the “Esteemed Globalists” and there more ” Esteemed Partners”. WEF.
  
  It is time too call it for what it is ?
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:33am
  - Taieri
    
    we got a memo changing our companies Policy, Namely “Zero Harm”. This is impossible due too the nature of our Industry.
    ————-
    
    I left the offshore industry for this very reason, as “Zero Harm” turned into chasing paper tigers.
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:08am
    - Master Mariner
      
      Unfortunately so Taieri, KPI’s and endless end of month statements and “Safety” performance criteria too meet.
      Such as Safe Acts, unsafe Acts, Incident and enviroment reports. etc etc.
      Got to fill that ‘Quota”//
      
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      October 19, 2023 11:29am
  - Ehlana
    
    I think the goal is called “Zero Harm” because anything else is seen as suggesting that some harm is acceptable.
    Since the bosses who set the goal are probably not in a position to be the ones harmed themselves, this is then painted as “Greedy Corporate Old White Cis Men Happy to Profit from Suffering and Death of Poor Oppressed Workers”.
    It’s a classic case of inability to deal with nuance. To accept that zero harm isn’t possible if humans are involved, because humans make mistakes. The only realistic goal is “safer practice”, but that doesn’t have the emotional appeal of the other.
    
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    October 19, 2023 12:24pm
    - septic skeptic
      
      That, and the fact that sometimes legislation makes directors personally liable for breaches and fines. This was no doubt intended to ensure they took responsibilities seriously, but had some unfortunate consequences. People are prepared to spend ludicrous amounts of other people’s money (shareholders, taxpayers, ratepayers money) to mitigate tiny risks. Because if the risk does eventuate then fines might come out of their own pocket.
      
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      October 19, 2023 1:26pm
    - Master Mariner
      
      Nope, Its bigger than that.
      Its a way of transferring Wealth by Stealth under the Guise of Zero Harm ( Amongst all ESG mis information ) by the Globalists.
      Nothing more, nothing Less.
      
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      October 19, 2023 1:48pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  I understand your evolving views about vaccines. However I think you are mistaken about the standard regime of childhood vaccines.
  
  I don’t rely on pharmaceutical companies or mainstream media for my information. I certainly did not do so with the COVID vaccines. Very quickly the data showed that the COVID vaccines were not what Jacinda told us they were. I was so dismayed that I followed the data daily for about 12 months.
  
  There is simply no equivalent emerging narrative about standard childhood vaccines. And TBH the reason why critics are labelled charlatans is because in many cases that is what they are.
  
  There is another problem that nobody younger than about 65 has any firsthand memory of life when small pox, polio and other deadly diseases plagued children. Similarly few people under 50 have any first hand experience with measles. Indeed the disease could be literally eradicated if about 95 percent of children were vaccinated.
  
  Unfortunately, it was inevitable that the experience with the COVID vaccines would spill over into mistrust of vaccines in general. Indeed, I recall commenting to that effect a couple of years ago.
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:34am
  - cmm
    
    “I don’t rely on pharmaceutical companies or mainstream media for my information.”
    
    OK, where do you get it from then?
    
    Unless you are doing your own research with your own independently funded labs, then any information you are getting is through a filter controlled by the pharmaceutical companies and MSM etc.
    
    Who do you still trust to give you true information? Baker? The Pink One? Your GP?
    Do you read medical journals yourself? Who funds those?
    
    Our whole society operates on trust from start to stop.
    
    When you run some water from your taps you are trusting that it is good quality.
    
    When you plug in an appliance you trust the voltage is right and it won’t blow up.
    
    When you drive onto the road you trust that Toyota (or whatever) built your car properly, the petrol is not rocket fuel and the WoF guy inspected it properly and the other drivers are not out to kill you.
    
    When you put your salary in the bank you trust they will still be operating tomorrow…
    
    Violating trust is one of the most destructive things that can be done to society.
    
    When the top medical people in the country stand on the Podium of Truth and lie, then why trust anything they say about anything else?
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:05am
    - Che Guava
      
      I laugh when the idea of “doing your own research” is sneered at and mocked. On one hand we a “free liberal democracy” that, in theory, entails each of us making up our own minds about the issues and acting accordingly (the principle being that people are sovereignty). On the other hand, if you don’t accept the propositions of “authorities” without question, you are seen as a weirdo.
      
      Which is it? Are we too dumb and cannot be trusted to make up our own minds lest we reach conclusions and make decisions that Power doesn’t like, or are we smart enough and have enough agency to make sensible choices at so-called democratic elections?
      
      These are actually the same thing in a sense: we cannot be trusted to act in the interests of Power if left to our own devices, which is why the choices presented to us come election time are just as curated and pre-selected (and genuinely conflicting alternatives are so roundly condemned as “dangerous” or similar) as the “acceptable opinions” on Covid and the like are.
      
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      October 19, 2023 9:17am
      - cmm
        
        “doing your own research is very different to “make up your own mind”.
        
        Very few people, indeed nobody, has all the knowledge required to do all the research required to inform you to make all the decisions you need.
        
        Even research that is done is based on previous research which we must trust. So what we end up with is layers of trust. When that trust breaks down then there are problems.
        
        But many of us are sufficiently knowledgeable in various fields to raise a question and point out what is, or appears to be, a discrepancy/error and ask more pointed questions.
        
        We now live in an age where vast numbers of “peer reviewed” papers in scientific journals etc cannot be reproduced and many have been shown to be fake.
        
        Making up your own mind is different to research. Making up your own mind means being presented with all the information in an unbiased way and then choosing from that. This is only possible if you can trust the people giving you the information.
        
        We have vast amounts of evidence that the CDC, WHO, NZ government and others have suppressed a lot of information about Covid so that people were not able to make up their own minds.
        
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        October 19, 2023 9:42am
      - mawm
        
        cmm – don’t forget the made up information as well. We had a deluge of false information about Covid which was used to deliberately frighten people into complying with the government’s dictatorial pharmacological and non-pharmacolocigal measures.
        
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        October 19, 2023 10:09am
      - cmm
        
        mawm: “Made up information” isn’t information. It is lies.
        By its very definition information informs people. That it can’t do if it is lies.
        
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        October 19, 2023 11:19am
      - mawm
        
        cmm – my apologies; it should have had inverted commas. I just assumed most people understood.
        
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        October 19, 2023 7:03pm
    - Che Guava
      
      When someone claims to be speaking from the Podium of Truth, they are saying that they have absolute access to, and are the sole conduit for, the truth. Consequently, as soon as the Podium of Truth is found to be wrong about anything in the domain over which they claim omniscience, then their credibility is destroyed. The single source of truth necessarily contradicts itself whenever someone other that single source speaks the truth.
      
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      October 19, 2023 9:22am
      - Master Mariner
        
        Too me “The Podium of Truth” can only end one way.
        A Statement like that is really a Zero Sum Game and limited by Time before full disclosure.
        
        Question? Did you think the Ex-PM realised this when making such a claim ?
        
        I honestly do not think she has the the comprehension of such a statement and eventual outcome.
        
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        October 19, 2023 11:35am
      - cmm
        
        Master. You mean the ex-ex PM now?
        She did fine out of it because she bailed out to her well feathered nest before the truth became known.
        
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        October 19, 2023 8:23pm
    - Paulus
      
      Are you saying that with our education standards, and levels, you re able to undertake and meaningful research ?
      
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      October 19, 2023 11:08am
    - Sacha
      
      @ cmm: I didn’t believe that we would have an epidemic here – we were healthy from a good summer, and by the time we went into winter we were already hearing that the virus was manageable, and that sensible precautions would be all that we needed, and sensible care would see us through.
      I saw a great video made by Dr Ryan Cole who successfully treated (ivermectin!!) a huge number of people without losing a single life or needing hospital care, which made sense to me.
      When the vaccine was announced, my first question was who would need it? Secondly – that was pretty quick, what happened to the clinical trials? How safe is it?
      And then I thought, it sounds dodgy. I’m not willing to take the risk of a reaction – I’ll build my immune system and take my chances.
      I have seen what dishonesty about the vaccines has done to our society, and it’s not nice. Distrust has permeated us at all levels.
      
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      October 19, 2023 6:50pm
      - cmm
        
        Most of the coronaviruses we encounter are common colds. They are highly infections so it was likely almost everyone would get them.
        
        But as we saw there were very few negative consequences. It was about as bad as a middle-of-the-road flu.
        
        Baker pushes the dangers of flu very hard. According to him there are about 10,000 flu deaths in NZ every year (about a quarter of all deaths). Well if you counted the same way as “covid deaths” are counted, then he would probably be right.
        
        Most flu deaths are pneumonia. Indeed the two are close to synonymous. Pneumonia has long been called “the old man’s friend” because it is a relatively painless way for a frail person at the end of their life to die. No surprises, that covid mostly just filled this role while it was around.
        
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        October 19, 2023 8:21pm
  - Matt Long
    
    I vaccinated my oldest two children, the oldest developed behavioural problems and immune issues almost immediately after his first vaccinations, I carried on with their vaccinations despite this, because correlation is not causation, and on balance the risks of deseases covered by the vaccinations seemed higher than the vaccine themselves.
    Child two hasn’t had any particular issues.
    However I later discovered my oldest brother developed similar symptoms to my oldest child and has suffered ill health his entire life, particularly asthma, and I was never vaccinated except against tetanus because of this.
    Child number three was born after the covid debacle, and while I am on balance in favour of vaccinations for her, with caution, my significant other is a definite no.
    I have no idea actually who is correct.
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:09am
  - wsk12345
    
    Think again Benedict. Think about how anti vaxxers have been smeared for decades as nutters.and doctors investigating links to autism for example were shut down and vilified. I bet KKs kids have had their kids vaxxed because they have been so heavily indoctrinated as a result of this approach.
    
    25 years ago my brother decided not to vax his kids. We thought he was mad despite him being one of the smartest people I know. He spent months researching, then same again when HPV vax was being pushed. He was right – measles is not polio (unless you are unhealthy and live in overcrowded conditions etc).
    
    The impact of the trad vaccines on kids may not be as diabolical as the Fizzer mRNA but to say it doesn’t exist based on what pharma and the CDC tells us is just deluded.
    
    Ps I had childhood vaccines and we all still got measles and yes I’m under 50. Also got chicken pox.
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:32am
    - ClanMcleod
      
      wsk12345 – many people are still in a state of shock, and also complete denial.
      
      This is because the realisation that someone or something you trusted implicitly has deliberately betrayed you is so psychologically devastating and traumatic, the mind subconsciously will shut those thoughts down.
      It’s usually easier to cover the ears and shout ‘lalalalalala’ loudly than to acknowledge such a level of betrayal. Ultimately you will acknowledge it and go through the normal grieving process.
      
      This is where cynicism comes from. It’s a very valid feeling right now.
      
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      October 19, 2023 10:21am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Well put Clan.
        
        There is no shame in being fooled by those you trusted.
        The shame is upon them and them alone.
        
        There seems to be a subtle subtext inherent in the media excretions that it is all over, they were right, the conspiracy theorists will never listen, and lets be the adults in the room and put it all behind us , forever.
        
        Of course the victims, the people who fear ridicule and blame for following their understandable instincts, will see this option as the most palatable.
        Who wants to relitigate a situation in which you were the patsy.
        
        This is the medias exit strategy .
        
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        October 19, 2023 11:01am
      - Master Mariner
        
        Imalwaysright,
        “The shame is upon them and them alone.”
        Unless,
        It happens a second Time, Then you Own the Shame entirely.
        
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        October 19, 2023 11:38am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Master ,
        Exactly .
        Fool me once, shame on you.
        Fool me twice shame on me.
        
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        October 19, 2023 12:44pm
    - Benedict Yu
      
      ” doctors investigating links to autism for example were shut down and vilified….”
      
      He was vilified because he was a fraud. A literal fraud.
      
      https://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.c7452
      
      Wakefield was struck off the UK medical register. He should have been sent to prison.
      
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      October 19, 2023 3:11pm
- Nigel Kearney
  
  It’s easy enough to discover you are being lied to by authorities. There is plenty of that out there. But, like parents telling their kids that carrots will help them see in the dark, the knowledge they are lying does not imply you should avoid the carrots. That question is much more complicated and I am very skeptical that you can discover the answer by ‘doing your own research’. Anti-vaxxers really are mostly people who want to believe in a conspiracy, have discovered a small amount of official dishonesty and other bad behaviour, collected some anecdotes, and have assumed the rest.
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:47am
  - Che Guava
    
    If you have discovered that someone is a liar, the onus then shifts to them to show that aren’t lying to you subsequently. I’ll believe any proposition if it is convincing, regardless of the source. It is standard practice that external authorities are characterised as the principle enemies of the people, but it usually the internal authorities who assure you of this that we should be sceptical of.
    
    Who would “want to believe in a conspiracy” and then seek reasons for their belief? It’s the other way round: I believe in conspiracies only if that’s where the evidence points (and the evidence usually starts with someone or some entity being caught in an obvious lie, from which the inference is often a conspiracy of some form).
    
    Of course people who are engaged in conspiracies are going to deny that conspiracies exist. There have been conspiracies among groups of people for as long as there have been groups of people. It is naive to suggest otherwise.
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:03am
  - bennerg
    
    Nigel,
    
    You use the term “Anti-vaxxers ” which is not a term without any real value. It is primarily a term used to demean those who questioned the narrative provided to us by a Government hell bent on imposing a medical regime, provided by a corrupt company in a secret agreement none of us can see. And this from “the most transparent government ever”.
    
    NB. Pfizer were fined in total US$2.3 Billion dollars in 2009 as reported by Reuters ““The size and seriousness of this resolution, including the huge criminal fine of $1.3 billion, reflect the seriousness and scope of Pfizer’s crimes,” said Mike Loucks, acting U.S. attorney for the District of Massachusetts.”
    
    The sad thing is that science, and particularly medical science has been shown up to be tainted, and now any edict or recommendation has to be viewed with suspicion.
    
    The success of the original childhood vaccines has now been used as a licence to print money. It seems every possible illness, even when not life threatening MUST be treated with “a vaccine”.
    
    The long term effects on natural immunity are not being assessed, well not to public knowledge anyway. If such an assessment showed a negative result, that would affect the financial bottom lines of the large pharmaceutical companies, and so that simply would not be allowed to be released.
    
    Then with Covid, a novel gene therapy was given the moniker of a vaccine, and a huge PR effort made to impugn anyone who questioned it’s safety or effectiveness. Alternative treatments for what turned out to just be a nasty flu were demeaned as “horse dewormers” etc, and doctors speaking out referred to the medical authorities.
    
    The saddest outcome is that the genuine benefits of ‘western medicine” are now affected by the reputational damage done by this latest disaster. Child vaccinations are down because the medical autorities obviously lied about Covid and the mRNA “vaccines”. People are now suspicious.
    
    No amount of TV Ads, free KFC etc will assuage that doubt. We have been set back decades in public health – and that does not at all address the potential damage by the mRNA gene therapy dressed up as a vaccine. Without the prescribed period of safety testing we just do not know what the previous government did to our people. Excess deaths cannot be hidden.
    
    But as the old saying goes, “truth will out”.
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:09am
  - cmm
    
    There’s a huge difference between little white lies to get kids to eat carrots vs lies impacting negatively on people’s health.
    
    To call what has happened “a small amount of official dishonesty” is massively trivialising what happened.
    
    I too agree that it is difficult to find the truth by doing your own research. Nobody is really equipped to do fully independent research. There are layers of research on top of layers of research. TO build that takes trust. Trust which has been damaged.
    
    But it is possible to do sufficient research to find that you are being lied to.
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:12am
  - Ghost
    
    The problem with you calling people anti vaxxers is they are not anti vax. Most have had all their vaccinations as have their family, this is the only vaccine many have refused to have. It’s a lazy attempt to label people something they are not
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:18am
    - Che Guava
      
      Our social structure is enforced and maintained by the use of concepts like racist, sexist, homophobe, transphobe, anti-vaxxer and anti-semite etc., all of which are supposed to end all discussion at once and to prevent certain lines of enquiry or argument. This is an excellent example of a Postmodernist linguistic conjuring trick, creating “reality” and directing thought merely by the deliberate use of language, and doing so to attain and then maintain power. Of course, this was their central critique of how the “Old Order” maintained itself, but we see that they were really just signaling their own intentions.
      
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      October 19, 2023 9:31am
    - JimBobJoe
      
      COVID 19 treatments from Pfizer etc where not vaccines… The WHO change the definition of vaccine to allow Pfizer et al to claim their treatments were vaccines.
      
      And that is my biggest concern; a supposed independent supra-natural body would change decades old definitions to enable a private company/companies to push therapies as something they were not and benefit financially in a massive way
      
      The health edifice from Supra-National to National Government Health agencies to Medical Professionals bodies all fell in line and without much question pushed unproven treatments on billions of people… Medical ethics are rotten to the core and the whole medical profession needs to take a long, hard look at themselves
      
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      October 19, 2023 9:38am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    Nigel Kearney – the use of the term ‘anti vaxxers’ is an epithet thrown at anyone daring to question any aspect of vaccine dogma. Even though there is good reason to have genuine concerns about the alarming increase in the number of ‘vaccines’ being added to the schedule.
    
    Of particular concern during the covid era is how the definition of a ‘vaccine’ has been changed. No longer is a vaccine going to give you immunity from disease, instead it might make you ‘a bit less sick’. Sadly it doesn’t.
    It MIGHT give you a bit of protection, for a very short period of time. Then it becomes negative in efficacy. Not only do you become more prone to catching covid, your innate immune system suffers damage. This is likely the reason so many other issues are arising, like turbo cancers. Look it up.
    
    Those responsible for this nightmare have done the majority of the world a favour, opened their eyes and made them question everything.
    
    Blind trust, once betrayed, is almost impossible to get back. There is a good reason for that. But you carry on trusting. I’m sure you’ll be fine.
    
    You can be as skeptical as you like, ‘doing your own research’ is becoming one of the most important things anyone can do in an era of mass media PR and pure propaganda.
    
    The covid era has simply exposed this machine clearly to anyone paying attention.
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:48am
  - Local Miller
    
    Actually carrots will help you see in the dark. People with a Vitamin A deficiency have night vision problems, and carrots are one of the best sources of the precursors to Vit A. While people with good Vit A levels obviously won’t benefit, the underlying facts are true.
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:48am
  - Sacha
    
    I suppose you would call me an ‘anti-vaxxer’.
    In my book the promotion of the vaccines ignored the lack of safety research through adequate trials, and this was recognised by experienced medical researchers and practitioners all over the world. So I had no reason to believe that the covid vaccine was safe to take.
    In the event I think I was right.
    
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    October 19, 2023 7:05pm
  - JohnRidd
    
    They have lied to us about everything. Covid, climate,gender, race and a whole lot of other things no doubt.
    And the media have helped them.
    
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    October 19, 2023 7:39pm
- all true
  
  Just watch this video from Dr Peter McCullough
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG38_53SEbU&ab_channel=misesmedia
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:54am
  - mawm
    
    This Dr has been a voice of reason backed by knowledge and science. Unfortunately he has been attacked, censored and had his career taken from him and yet he has pursued the truth relentlessly.
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:52am
- Simon
  
  There are no such things as human rights. Only personal morality conferred on individuals via the teachings from the Bible.
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:58am
  - septic skeptic
    
    It amazes me that we can have fossil records, carbon dating and the James Web Space Telescope yet so many folk prefer the “evidence” of the Quran or the Bible – whatever floats your boat I suppose.
    
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    October 19, 2023 1:44pm
    - Local Miller
      
      It’s all about interpretation of the evidence.
      
      Carbon dating is so last century, everyone knows by now that the half life of C14 isn’t long enough to date anything beyond a few thousand years. And WRT other radioactive decay dating methods, there are significant assumptions made to get the isotope ratios to fit the curves.
      While the fossil record tells us there were all these now extinct creatures, there are other models that better explain how the fossils were formed. The slow accumulation of sand doesn’t cut it because there are too many fossils of soft bodied animals. These would not have formed fossils under this model. Another problem with the age of the fossils is soft tissue. There are now thousands of multi-million year old fossils with soft tissue in them, and no reasonable explanation.
      WRT the JWST, this is putting the cat among the astrological pigeons. Being able to see so far back in time and finding fully formed galaxies with too much matter – oops, rewrite the galaxy forming theory. And the Hubble constant? Two major systems for measuring this who’s error bars at least overlapped in the first years, but more recently the values have diverged as telescope technology improved. JWTS was going to fix this by showing that one of the measuring systems was inaccurate. Another ooops, JWST has shown that both systems are accurate, AND narrowed their precision so now they are even further apart from each other. (For those who don’t know, the Hubble Constant refers to the expansion rate of the Universe).
      It amazes me that with all the holes in the evolutionary and old earth sciences people still believe in it, but whatever floats your boat I suppose.
      
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      October 19, 2023 3:55pm
      - JohnRidd
        
        Sorry to break it to you Local Miller, but the people who determined that evolution happens were all devout Christians. They established that life on earth had changed over time. Dawin, by describing natural selection, began to explain how evolution happens.
        
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        October 19, 2023 7:52pm
- ClanMcleod
  
  krazykiwi – my trust in every institution on which my life is based has been shattered over the last 4 years, particularly health.
  
  Like you, I had every traditional vaccine proffered as did my wife and my kids. I did so without once questioning what I was told, total faith, total trust.
  This has been one of the most devastating aspects of what has been done to society over recent years.
  
  I looked into the flu jab (pre covid) as I was eligible to get it for free. The more I looked, the less benefit I could find. Even the local doctors admitted they weren’t sure if it would cover ‘this year’s’ variant, that it was at best a 1 in 4 chance of being right. I didn’t see the point.
  
  Then I had a tetanus shot after getting a large hook stuck in my leg. As part of my ongoing research into all things covid, I discovered I had been given a jab for three things, not just tetanus. I was also jabbed for pertussis and diptheria.
  Zero information, zero informed consent, just stuck it in my arm.
  
  Then the covid era really kicked in, it has been a massive eye opener. The further I delved into the topic the more concerning it was. Not just covid jabs, but all areas of health which are clearly captured by a medical industrial complex. Not a conspiracy theory in sight. It is no longer about health, it is all about money.
  
  I am not saying doctors and nurses are not decent people trying to help others, I’m saying their whole system from the beginning of their education to employment to the medicines they are taught to prescribe are fully compromised by the pursuit of profit.
  I’m old enough to remember the days when the doctor stuck a wooden spatula on my tongue, told mum to give me soup and plenty of fluids, patted my head and gave me a barley sugar lolly and sent me on my way. No drugs. Those days are gone.
  
  The medical industrial complex doesn’t want healthy people, they need repeat customers.
  
  I’m currently reading ‘Turtles All the Way Down – Vaccine Science and Myth’.
  
  The book is intended for parents overwhelmed by conflicting messaging on this important topic, but it is also an excellent reference for medical researchers and professionals who seek a better understanding of vaccine safety science. Whether you are new to the vaccine debate or a “veteran” seeking a deeper grasp of the science, this book is a must-read. It also serves as an excellent primer on vaccination to share with friends and relatives who may benefit from a deep dive into the subject.
  
  It has been a revelation. I can’t recommend it highly enough, but be prepared to have your opinions on vaccines absolutely shattered if you decide to read it.
  
  https://www.amazon.com/Turtles-All-Way-Down-Vaccine/dp/9655981045
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:16am
  - Tom Hunter
    
    The medical industrial complex doesn’t want healthy people, they need repeat customers.
    
    Heh. A couple of years ago I wrote a post, Subscribing to immunity, where I looked at the steady move of subscription-based business from my IT world into the very physical world of machines:
    
    While I was working for an agricultural contractor I saw that the big John Deere “choppers” had two thick, heavy plastic “wands” mounted to the central prow of the header and that these could be used to drive the machines through maize fields on automatic pilot. However, when I asked one of the drivers about this feature he scoffed and said they didn’t use it because it meant paying some $US 1500 per year to JD for the related software in the computer system and “It’s not worth it”.
    
    Given its success in those business worlds why wouldn’t the same model be adopted in medicine?
    
    But with talk of vaccine passports and papers required to operate in society the legal drug companies have certainly hit the gold mine beloved of every big business by having the State on their side with regulations. Could this then become a standard feature of life, with us paying Pfizer (either directly or via government taxes) an annual subscription for the drugs needed to keep us alive or at least, “certified and legal”?</blockquote?
    
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    October 19, 2023 12:12pm
- Bridgenag
  
  The Real Risks of Childhood Vaccines
  Childhood Deaths Dropped By 30% During the Pandemic
  
  https://www.2ndsmartestguyintheworld.com/p/the-real-risks-of-childhood-vaccines?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:24am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    Yup. From the article.
    
    …..the death rate for American children dropped during lockdowns when many parents were unable to take their children for their scheduled vaccinations.
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:30am
    - Bridgenag
      
      You always do it better Clan. Thanks This was good this morning too
      
      The Shredded Social Contract –
      Systems are failing worldwide with dire consequences.
      
      https://open.substack.com/pub/rwmalonemd/p/the-shredded-social-contract?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
      
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      October 19, 2023 10:52am
    - slijmbal
      
      I think the problem here is that we had an incredibly successful set of traditional vaccines, polio and tetanus being excellent examples. Disability and deaths from polio and lockjaw as we used to call it were common in my childhood as we were just finishing implementing vaccinations at that time. I remember a classmate with permanent leg braces because of his polio for instance.
      
      On a side note – we also had thalidomide, which was the canary in the mine for the later behaviour of pharmaceutical companies. Luckily, my mother was offered it but did not take it. Again, some of the children at my school had the severe deformities and the limited life expectancy that ensued.
      
      We then had the autism scandal being related to vaccinations – the scientist who falsified research around this was prosecuted I seem to recall. One ongoing complication is that autism tends to be detected about the same time children get a bunch of vaccinations so it gets difficult to be certain there is no correlation. The current evidence for correlation is poor and it is thus unlikely.
      
      Flu vaccines are pretty much a best guess and have a limited success rate.
      
      The evidence for heart issues for younger recipients of the Covid ‘vaccine’ is looking stronger by the day.
      
      As usual these are all get lumped under vaccines where, in reality, some are pretty obvious must haves and many of the more recent are of dubious value, if any.
      
      No wonder many people end up anti-vax in general because it’s such a right royal confusing mess.
      
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      October 19, 2023 11:21am
  - Local Miller
    
    I wonder if one of the reasons childhood deaths dropped during lockdowns was because children were having less contact with other children and there was less transmission of other diseases.
    We home schooled our children for the majority of the schooling. As a result our children had virtually zero sickness. A classroom is a virtual incubator for disease. Sick kids, either infectious and not showing symptoms yet, or there because parents can afford to take time off to stay at home with their kids are passing on disease to everyone in the class.
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:58am
    - Taieri
      
      A classroom is a virtual incubator for disease.
      ————-
      
      And a very good place to acquire an immunity to various diseases.
      
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      October 19, 2023 11:12am
      - ClanMcleod
        
        Taieri – a very relevant point. It explains why the concept of hiding under the bed hoping for a miracle called elimination was a nonsensical strategy.
        
        There have been very few genuinely dangerous infectious diseases in history that were only deadly due to many other reasons. Poor sanitation, hygiene, nutrition and lack of access to clean water in particular.
        That’s why the plague, and the Spanish Flu did so much damage.
        
        Our immune systems are a miracle that has evolved over millions of years. I will trust it over the medical industrial complex every time. Especially after being a part of the covid psyop of the last 4 years.
        
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        October 19, 2023 11:31am
      - septic skeptic
        
        Clan, hiding under the bed hoping for a miracle like the original LAB leak strain to evolve into Omicron worked out OK.
        
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        October 19, 2023 1:51pm
- RockyJ
  
  The shocking thing about our Covid experience and, in fact the last six years in general, has been for us to discover how much our government, politicians and bureaucrats, lie to us. The internet has allowed us to discover other versions of truths which may or may not be accurate but which give us pause.
  
  Jacinda saw this and is conducting a personal crusade to establish state control of the internet. But rather than a “weapon of war” I see it as the ultimate liberator of humanity. This is because we are inherently attracted to the truth even though the journey is always fraught and complicated
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:38am
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Tbh, I think Jacinda was just stupid, not evil.
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:13pm
JJ56

Could this be the case? https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2023/10/palestinians-bombing-themselves-with-failed-rockets.html
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October 19, 2023 8:08am
- JimBobJoe
  
  Yes. They have form
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:40am
- WaynelSexton
  
  When has a Palestinian rocket ever killed 471 Israelis?
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:48am
  - mawm
    
    Never but they are happy to kill their own.
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:56am
  - thirteenstars
    
    The abundant evidence is that the hospital carpark was hit by one of the 20-30% of Hamas rockets that go astray resulting in deaths and relatively minor damage.
    
    There is no evidence that the IDF targeted the hospital. If it had, the entire facility would be rubble.
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:58am
  - septic skeptic
    
    The claim of 500 dead looks very fanciful given the relatively small explosion seen in video footage.
    
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    October 19, 2023 1:54pm
- Libertarians are right
  
  Their rockets are not accurate. It’s actually impossible for them, while firing from inside heavily populated civilian areas to not blow up their own people a signification percentage of the time.
  Yet they still do it.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:13am
- rangitoto
  
  The images released by hamas show a damaged car park with a small crater (pothole). The adjacent hospital appears to have little damage. Failed rocket looks a lot more plausible than a jdam hit. I suspect the number of deaths/injuries is vastly overstated.
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:02am
Master Mariner

Russian Disinformation ?
https://www.rt.com/russia/584698-western-system-smart-people-putin/

Nope, Pretty hard to disagree.

Meanwhile another Pipeline has lost pressure, In all honesty it looks like Fatigue and / or damaged by ships anchor.
https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/heavy-force-damaged-baltic-sea-gas-pipeline-estonia-says-2023-10-11/
It has gone mysteriously quiet on the Blame game.

So, Here’s a thing.
Our “Nord Stream Moment” was the banning of Oil/Gas and Closure of Marsden Pt Refinery. All done with a perfect willingness to appease overseas interests and make a “Speech” for the Green “Cause”.

So how is this going too work out long term ? And if you think we are not useing Russian refined Fuels in our Imported Blended Fuels, Then I give up.
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October 19, 2023 8:15am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  NZ Nordstream Moment banning Oil/Gas exploration and Marsden Pt Refinery closure was a bully doing a bit of arm wrestling to see how far she could push.
  Power.
  Marsden Refinery should have been purchased by the Govt. I don’t know who owned it. There was a shipload of Avgas that was contaminated and sent away. It could have been refined into diesel I think, at the expense of the suppliers.
  I still think Marsden could be made running again. The act of filling pipes with concrete was childish. Put in new pipes. A 10 year old could think of that!
  
  That Woman damaged our wonderful New Zealand so much, and she just walked away!
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:57am
- ClanMcleod
  
  MM – still an awful lot of people listening to and believing the narratives promoted on the MSM. As kk said in his earlier post:
  
  If you get your sense of true north on a topic from mainstream media or powerful commercial/state entities then there is every chance you are being manipulated for the benefit of some other party.
  
  Truer words seldom spoken.
  
  I believe we are coming to the culmination of an epoch, the period of mass media communication, primarily television, which has been used initially as a source of information, then entertainment, then as a very successful marketing tool and ultimately it has become the greatest propaganda tool ever.
  
  One of my favourite books over the years was ‘Amusing Ourselves to Death’ by Neil Postman.
  
  “Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business” is a book by Neil Postman that warns of a decline in the ability of mass communications media to share serious ideas. Postman argues that television images replace the written word, demeaning and undermining political discourse and turning real, complex issues into superficial images, less about ideas and thoughts and more about entertainment. The book is a prophetic look at what happens when politics, journalism, education, and even religion become subject to the demands of entertainment. It is also a blueprint for regaining control of our media, so that they can serve our highest goals.
  
  The mainstream media edifice is crumbling. The further it falls, the more hysterical it becomes. The greater the demands for closing down free speech because it is a ‘threat’ to society.
  Nothing could be further from the truth. But those currently in charge and who are seeing their control mechanism threatened will not roll over.
  
  We are in turbulent times, the change of an era, and it won’t be pleasant for an awful lot of people.
  
  We need trust restored but it is difficult to see that happening anytime soon.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:40am
  - Master Mariner
    
    Probably in simpler terms,
    I believe in this,
    “Every great nation destroys itself from within.”
    Fully agree CM.
    
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    October 19, 2023 1:53pm
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Bread & circuses.
    
    Nothing new under the sun.
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:15pm
Scott

Some people might be fooled by the entire mainstream media blaming Israel for firing the rocket that destroyed a Palestinian hospital. The reports from the media blaming Israel were based solely on the say so of Hamas.

Maybe Hamas is not a reliable source of information? In fact it was Hamas that fired the rocket that accidently destroyed their own hospital.
We wait for a fulsome apology from the media for their error of falsely blaming Israel. Waiting…

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/10/shocker-hamas-not-a-reliable-source.php
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October 19, 2023 8:15am
- bennerg
  
  The BBC in particular are still refusing to state the obvious, nor issue an apology for their pro Hamas coverage. FFS they still will not call out Hamas as a “terrorist organisation”. And Ofcom, the Engish version of our BSA, is also refusing to intervene.
  
  This being played out in public is further eroding any confidence in the established media organisations and their oversight.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:11am
- ClanMcleod
  
  Because you know the exact details of who fired what at who and when? 🙄
  
  Give it 6 months, we MIGHT get definitive proof about where the missile came from and who was responsible. Maybe. In the meanwhile thousands of innocent people are dying and being mutilated.
  
  That’s where my focus is and always has been when the big boys with the big toys decide to start chucking them at each other. The innocent victims.
  
  I’d prefer all those who support this shit to find a remote island and all go and have at it. Do the world a favour. That includes the keyboard warriors who’ve never seen the impact of a bombing or a shooting. I have.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:49am
  - thirteenstars
    
    So you support the murder, mutilation and torture of 1,400 Israelis on Oct 7?
    
    Let’s say your answer is no. Then what should Israel have done? Sit on its hands and say, retaliation is not the way. Let’s take it on the chin, suck it up, and respectfully ask Hamas what we can do to avoid such an attack in the future.
    
    Or maybe give them a stern warning that if they do it again, then they’ll be in really big trouble.
    
    Is that it?
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:08am
    - ClanMcleod
      
      thirteen stars – keep your hyperbole and your faux outrage. You obviously didn’t read what I wrote, or deliberately didn’t understand what I’m saying.
      
      That conflict has been going on for a century or more. It’s a tragedy for all involved.
      Or do you think that the genocide of one group by the other group will fix this and we’ll all live happily ever after?
      
      I said we don’t know who was responsible for the hospital. Fact.
      
      I never said anywhere that Israel shouldn’t have responded to the Hamas attacks on them. Fact.
      
      I said my thoughts are with all of the innocent people who did nothing to contribute to this, but who always bear the brunt of the responses by all of those with the weapons and the power. Fact.
      
      Try reading and responding to what was said rather than presuming intent.
      
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      October 19, 2023 11:39am
      - thirteenstars
        
        I did respond to what you said. You just didn’t like my response.
        
        We all feel for those caught in the middle. You don’t have a monopoly on such things. It’s as easy as hell to say and is so often said it comes across as a little trite.
        
        Israel has the right to destroy Hamas. If you’d like to offer a mechanism whereby they can do that while Hamas uses innocents as shields then give us the advantage of your wisdom.
        
        The abundant evidence is that the hospital carpark was hit by one of the 20-30% of Hamas rockets that go astray resulting in deaths and relatively minor damage. There is no evidence that the IDF targeted the hospital. If it had, the entire facility would be rubble.
        
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        October 19, 2023 12:04pm
    - imalwaysright
      
      Probably best to read Clan’s post.
      
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      October 19, 2023 11:47am
    - Miritu
      
      “So you support the murder, mutilation and torture of 1,400 Israelis on Oct 7?”
      
      Thirteenstars, I think you are better than this
      
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      October 19, 2023 8:46pm
- Paulus
  
  Hamas will never accept that it could be their fault.
  Palestine men will only jump up and down and scream against Israel, the USA and the rest of the world whatever.
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:11am
Scooter

I was wondering if Chris Hipkins would carry on Jacinda’s children’s Xmas card thingy, or would he have bonfired that as well? Somehow I don’t think Luxon will put that high on his list of things to do in the first 100 days.
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October 19, 2023 8:18am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Who cuts what?
The Treaty? I want to see the Waitangi Tribunal Treaty binned and a return to the original written in Maori – and the Littlewood Draft. Currently it is being abused, which it was designed to do.
The ‘Principles’ is just shit introduced by Geoffrey Palmer in 1989.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?
Lets get oil and gas moving again, as well as mining. Indonesian coal is a socialist joke.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/election-2023-what-s-set-to-get-cut-under-a-national-act-nz-first-government/ar-AA1ipbbk?
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October 19, 2023 8:19am
- Matt Long
  
  Yesterday Sean Plunkett brought up a member’s bill from 2005; Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Deletion Bill
  Apparently this bill was supported at first reading by a blue party, but not at second reading.
  https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansD_20050608_00001017/principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion-bill-first
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:26am
  - jp_1983
    
    There was no second reading as the bill was defeated at the first reading.
    
    Here is an interesting footnote – the bill was debated in the 2005-2008 parliament. (What happened to NZ first on election 2008?)
    
    Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS: I will take my time, because we have plenty of time on our hands. My colleagues will come too. On election night, when the polls are coming in, the people are giving their verdict, and Labour is going down, Labour members will say that they wished they had listened to New Zealand First. They will wish that they had not been so arrogant and had listened to the one party that understands Māori, ordinary people, and workers, and understands their dreams, hopes, and aspirations. They will wish that they had backed New Zealand First’s view.
    
    A party vote was called for on the question, That the Principles of the Treaty of Waitangi Deletion Bill be now read a first time.
    
    Ayes 51 New Zealand National 25; New Zealand First 13; ACT New Zealand 8; United Future 5.
    Noes 63 New Zealand Labour 51; Green Party 9; Progressive 2; Māori Party 1.
    Motion not agreed to.
    Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS (Leader—NZ First) : I raise a point of order, Madam Speaker. I feel that it would be very, very ill-mannered of me if I did not thank all those members who voted for this bill and put their country first before their narrow, selfish political selves.
    
    Madam DEPUTY SPEAKER: The member knows that that is not a point of order.
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:02am
    - Matt Long
      
      Glad to be corrected on blue team. A X post wrongly suggested it was stopped at second reading because they didn’t support it.
      
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      October 19, 2023 10:58am
      - Warren
        
        Well done Matt , it’s the truth is what maters.
        
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        October 19, 2023 11:52am
- Hacked-Off
  
  Steve,
  The original language of the Treaty was English and formulated in the British Foreign Office. The translation into Maori was done by the Missionary Henry Williams and his son at the behest of Governor Hobson before he consulted with Maori. But I agree that the Tribunal has outlived its used by date.
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:35am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    The translation by Henry Williams into Maori was done from the Draft written by Henry Littlewood.
    I don’t know where you got the British Foreign Office idea from. Maybe a link?
    
    Here is 53 minutes of what happened. About 8 minutes in.
    
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVgY03s6Tqc
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:55am
- Simon
  
  James Shaw slyly referencing violence if Act proposed ToW democracy is carried out will have Luxon badly rattled.
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:01am
  - rouppe
    
    Because that’s all the Left know when they don’t get their way
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:30am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      And they brand you “racist.”
      
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      October 19, 2023 10:56am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Why don’t we appropriate the term” racist ” and assign it the definition true to context:
        
        One who appreciates all races.
        
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        October 19, 2023 11:52am
  - bennerg
    
    Simon, a “thug veto” tactic if I ever saw one.
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:13am
  - Loddenthinks
    
    What was sly about it?
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:06am
artemisia

Good summary in the Herald, a useful checklist to see if the new government stays on track – What’s set to get cut under a National-Act-NZ First government?
* Co-governance
* Bans on offshore oil and gas exploration
* Agricultural emissions pricing
* Three Waters
* Let’s Get Wellington Moving
* Auckland Light Rail
* Bright-line test and tax interest deductibility for rentals
* Significant Natural Areas
* Plus some others slightly less clear but also likely in some form
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2023-whats-set-to-get-cut-under-a-national-act-nz-first-government/OWY2HSJ7LVFTBJTGRFRTHRSYB4/
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October 19, 2023 8:19am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Nothing on that list should be too hard, it’s the Māori health authority that maybe harder
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:54am
  - Paulus
    
    All the top Jobs for the Maori Health Authority have been given at enormous costs and I suspect huge redundancy clauses are included.
    I don’t care get rid of it on a one off redundancy cost.
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:14am
    - artemisia
      
      Maori Health Authority – yes expensive to dismantle. However it is usual in a ‘restructuring’ to offer other roles, in this case probably in the other entity. Interesting to see if that happens. I think it will if people are any good and even more interesting to see who takes what – stay or go.
      
      New roles offered will have tight outcomes attached I feel sure, and might not be in the same salary band.
      
      In the meantime, a fast review of current funding, expenditure and whether outcomes are being met is a grand idea. And will be useful input to the restructuring process, ie who gets an offer and who gets the DCM.
      
      A process for such a review is almost certainly ready to pass GO, as there will be a lot of it coming right up.
      
      Have to say though, employees at the MHA were appointed under the government, not their fault if the rules change. But still need scrutiny.
      
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      October 19, 2023 12:17pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  “Bans on offshore oil and gas exploration”
  
  Sorry that horse has bolted.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:18am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Those involved won’t come back, but why can’t NZ do it without them? I know it is a huge task, but training and learning instead of paying Corporates.
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:02am
    - Taieri
      
      I know it is a huge task, but training and learning instead of paying Corporates.
      ————
      
      It doesn’t work like that. Exploration alone is prohibitively expensive and there’re no guarantees that anything will be discovered let alone in commercial quantities. That’s why it is done by the international companies as economies of scale couldn’t be achieved otherwise. Currently, the daily rate for a semisub drilling rig is around $400K and that’s just a part of expenditure. Jack-ups are cheaper, but they are not as versatile as semisubs. Then you have at least 2 support vessels. And before all that happens you need to do seismic surveys, which are also very expensive. There’s some human expertise in NZ, not in the sufficient quantity though, but there isn’t and won’t be the required infrastructure because there’s no one capable of financing it.
      
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      October 19, 2023 11:23am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        David Garrett may know some if this.
        
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        October 19, 2023 12:10pm
      - David Garrett
        
        Taieri: You are spot on…and that $400k daily rate for a semi will be USD and not NZD.
        
        No, the reality is Ardern has destroyed the NZ oil and gas industry…she probably thinks that’s one of her biggest achievements.
        
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        October 19, 2023 12:37pm
    - imalwaysright
      
      Agree S.O
      
      NZ seems to be in the habit of needing its hand held.
      Time to grow the fuck up and get things done.
      It has become the country of “you can’t do that”.
      Don’t listen to those people, NZ can, and should, be doing much more than it does .
      Instead it seems to be the fat arsed lazy twenty nine year old who is scared to leave home in case there is no one to wash its sweaty gruts.
      
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      October 19, 2023 12:04pm
- John Loveridge
  
  The sooner the better, all of them.
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:07am
Matt Long

Wellington spoiled for choice in the council by-election.
https://x.com/JoelMacManus/status/1714483218190373163?s=20
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October 19, 2023 8:21am
- fightingtemeraire
  
  I thought that Gareth Thomas Llewellyn Hughes BOYO!!! was living in Dunedin. So, he has moved up to be closer to the TROUGH!!!
  
  They will be banning the new ferries and resorting to Scows soon.
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:30am
- Gravelroad
  
  Ratepayers in Wellington seem to be content to vote for single issue activists rather than people who actually know and understand something about local body governance – so why not these two?
  And they will like the money on offer just for going to a few more meetings.
  That’s the way it rolls in complacent and ignorant Wellington.
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:39am
- oldpark
  
  Wonder what or who will stand for the Wellington City Bye-Election coming soon .
  It will be needed to replace the Carpet Bagger ms/Paul who amongst other things committed the
  Wellington Rate Payers to huge Rate increases by voting for a spend of $260,000 ,000 Million Dollars for Bicycle Tracks .
  Now she has once more scarpered off to be MP for Wellington Central.Wellington Rate payers will have to pay for the bye-election a needless cost again.
  With such an infestation of Labour/Greens voters
  at recent Election the future of Wellington City and Greater Wellington and its Citizens will have to hold their breath for what happens next under the latest Political results in Wellington .
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:12am
  - Gravelroad
    
    The new NZ First MP for Kaikoura, who is also a fourth -term Marlborough District Councillor, says he is staying on at the Council to save the ratepayers having to fund a by election.
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:02am
    - MCōs
      
      He’s the chairman of the Economic, Finance and Community Committee down there.
      A total renumeration of ~$50k plus a certain amount of work, one would imagine
      Chap is going to be run off his feet if he’s not just in parliament to make up the numbers.
      
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      October 19, 2023 11:34am
    - Ra Henare
      
      Yep a little bit of ignorance goes a long way.
      
      Larry Buldock pulled that stunt in Tauranga a few years back.
      Sitting City Councilor got voted in via NZ First.
      
      Lasted a few months before realizing he couldnt do both!
      
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      October 19, 2023 3:48pm
G152

Watching Al Jazeera and counting the little errors.
Like it was claimed that the hospitals would run out of fuel for lighting and so on about a week ago.
Latest media from there shows a fully lit ED.
And who bombed the other hospital should be easily solved by recovering the weapon remains by an independant authority.
Will that happen ?????
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October 19, 2023 8:22am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Photos snd recorded phone calls have already been shown as evidence, these scum have done this before to try and blame Israel, I think it more than likely is done on purpose than a misfire sadly.
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:57am
  - Paulus
    
    No wonder Putin is smiling !
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:18am
- Paulus
  
  What about the Bomb making factories built under such as Hospitals knowing that the Israelis will not and do not bomb hospitals.
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:17am
Rusty

I really hope Chris Luxon will set up a full independent inquiry unto the covid response.

There are people who have to be held accountable for their undemocratic and cruel actions towards millions of Nzers.
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October 19, 2023 8:24am
- peterwn
  
  What actions were they?
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:28am
  - JimBobJoe
    
    Start with Medsafe not approving Pfizer treatment and it being pushed through by an escalation committee. Why, when the professionals who assessed the treatment said it shouldn’t be approved as safety data for a normal trial period was not available, did the Medicines Assessment Advisory Committee (MAAC) approve the Pfizer treatment??
    
    Add the Lockdown of Auckland in 2021
    
    Add the denying people the chance to visit dying relatives
    
    Add the cruel MIQ lottery bullshit
    
    Add the shameless targeting of individuals via the press by the PM (Hipkins and the women in Northland, Ardern and the Pizza worker)
    
    The list is long Peter.
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:48am
    - bennerg
      
      I would like to see a petition to rescind the awards made hastily to Ardern and Bloomfield, given the evidence now of the damage done to the people of New Zealand.
      
      Both have bailed out as quickly as they could, as an attempt to limit any further focus on their part in the sordid affair.
      
      This is a time to sort it out, “lest we forget”.
      
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      October 19, 2023 10:19am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Traffic lights! Childish.
      
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      October 19, 2023 11:07am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    ffs if you have to ask that question then you’re part of the problem.
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:53am
    - peterwn
      
      Yes, I seem to be a big problem on Kiwiblog anyway (perhaps why I do not have moderator bypass privileges). I am grateful for JimBobJoe’s response. I would welcome an enquiry on all these points as long as vaccinations is limited to Covid vaccinations only. I would also welcome any enquiry trying to get a grip on whether some deaths were caused by Covid or whether Covid was the tipping point for deaths that would have probably occurred within a year anyway.
      
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      October 19, 2023 11:55am
      - JimBobJoe
        
        Your welcome Peter… I your appreciate the input regardless of disagreeing on some points.
        
        I suspect you worked inside the Government bureaucracy for quite some time as you seem to have a great handle on the administrative processes… PCO office may have been part of the career path given the commentary on law
        
        If I am correct – its good to have a window into the standing machinery in Wellington
        
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        October 19, 2023 2:22pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Repeating the lie “safe and effective’ when there was no confirmation.
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:09am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Well I thought he stated 18 months ago he would have a full Royal commission into everything covid including lock down and isolation, I seem to remember the rabid media hounding him saying but Labour already have an enquiry, I am sure he said we would want an independent investigation
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:59am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    G – here’s hoping. If they do then I’ll understand that their silence on all things covid pre election was simply political machinations which I don’t fully understand.
    I may not like it, but I’ll understand the logic. I really hope they do or I think we’re in for a very long road to getting some stability in this country.
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:56am
igm

This woke outfit must be put into statutory management immediately . . .
https://www.thepost.co.nz/a/nz-news/350094151/meetings-paused-wellington-city-council-tension-soars
Ratepayers cannot afford to carry these leeches any longer.
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October 19, 2023 8:25am
- bennerg
  
  “Tensions at the Wellington City Council have reached the point that the deputy mayor is being ghosted by colleagues and the mayor has put a hold on meetings after “negative discussions”.”
  
  Time to install Commissioners to take over Wellington Council????
  
  I see in Tauranga the Commissioners are now being challenged by previous elected Councillors. It is getting testy.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:23am
- Bullion
  
  It’s just an obstructionist minority not prepared to work with the majority on the council.
  
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  October 19, 2023 4:35pm
Maggie Pie

A bestie tweets that Chippie was heard saying –
“We don’t know how we lost Auckland”

Let’s not forget the entire Supercity was locked down for 107 days because of ONE case of Covid….brought in by a UN staffer flown into NZ from Fiji by Helen Clark.
A lot of people seem to have forgotten about that.
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October 19, 2023 8:30am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Yes that “elimination strategy” was a real winner. 😭
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:36am
  - Master Mariner
    
    Not too mention all the “entertainers” bought in, Mean while us mere mortals had to play “The Hunger Games” to get in.
    Never will I ever forgive either.
    
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    October 19, 2023 8:45am
    - bennerg
      
      MM, And 11,000 health workers exempted from vaccination….. wow!!! And no-one who knew told us?
      
      Animal Farm here we come.
      
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      October 19, 2023 10:24am
      - Master Mariner
        
        Exactly, So the next question is why ?
        Did they know more?
        If so then what ?
        Then by Who ?
        
        Alarm Bells regarding this was Pfeizer had “special” vaccines for there own staff as Discussed by Australian Senator Rennick.
        
        It could not be any more clearer than if I was Painting by numbers, If so it would be a bloody Leonardo Di Vinci.
        
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        October 19, 2023 1:59pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    Elimination was a good idea in first months before we had clear picture of covid dangers, and before health system was prepared for an outbreak. But Labour were slow and incompetent as usual, and so it took twice as long as it should have, and Labour were also incompetent at improving health system capacity.
    
    We could have incrementally exposed 70% lowest risk NZers to covid in 2020 at cost of perhaps a few hundred dead, let higher risk people isolate themselves if they chose to, and then opened up and got on with our lives. Saving NZ $50 Billion.
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:07am
    - Che Guava
      
      I reject the premise that the government has any right or moral authority whatsoever to lock us in our homes against our wills. But they had to: you can’t claim that a deadly plague is in town and then let most of the population go about their lives and prove you wrong. You need a universal policy so that you don’t have any evidence to contradict your dire warnings.
      
      If it were voluntary, you’d have about 10% freaking out hiding under their beds and after about a week they’d start to question why almost nobody was dying of Covid. Then the government would be seen to be lying or completely wrong, which would be an instant and huge credibility issue (instead, this took some months to eventuate).
      
      This was why Sweden was roundly poo-pooed by authorities, because their experience gave the lie to the apocalyptic narrative.
      
      If the government is so intent on “keeping us safe” why don’t they tackle the rampant crime problem at its source? The reason is because keeping us safe was never the aim.
      
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      October 19, 2023 9:50am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Power by a rabid socialist is why it all happened.
        Statements like “Don’t even talk to your neighbors” Over the top.
        Coster “If you are caught we will put you in jail” or something.
        
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        October 19, 2023 11:16am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Che,
        If a possible deadly plague was in town it would have arrived about four months before lockdown via some of the hundreds of thousands Chinese tourists who visited NZ during the immediately prior summer.
        The reality is that, were it not for the media and government regime to indoctrinate us to the imaginary danger, we would have probably carried on as normal.
        Your point about the 10 percent exposing the credibility issue is spot on. I believe that is exactly what happened.
        They came to be referred to as antivaxxers and/or conspiracy theorists .
        
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        October 19, 2023 12:31pm
    - ClanMcleod
      
      Elimination was never a good strategy. Maybe in 12 years when covid had been researched for a decade or so and a genuinely effective vaccine was developed that would give immunity to protect people. But it was never a viable strategy at the beginning.
      
      Remember, we had a decades old, tried and trusted and updated pandemic preparedness plan which explicitly advised against such a strategy. A plan which was unceremoniously dumped by the government while one experiment after the other was carried out on a bewildered and frightened population.
      
      Why? I want to hear the answer to that question. Who made the decision and on what basis?
      
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      October 19, 2023 11:01am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Who? Jacinda Ardern.
        Basis? Socialism. Fear Porn. Control.
        
        That’s all I can come up with.
        
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        October 19, 2023 11:19am
      - NothingLeft
        
        If we had let-er-rip without any sort of plan in NZ there would have been 10,000+ dead (2000/million was typical for west, but we have >50% obese Polynesians that would have been more vulnerable). It would have inevitably turned into a massive expensive shitstorm of expensive but ineffectual mitigations due to population and politicians freaking out like it did everywhere else – who went through similar 2 years of lock-down-esque bullshit as we did.
        
        But with controlled infection – exposing only healthiest 70% and variolation (minimum level of infection to give more time for immune response), we could have likely achieved herd immunity for early covid variants with only a few hundred dead, at an economic cost much much lower than what we ultimately bore. Most of population could have quickly resumed life as normal, with schools, businesses and borders open.
        
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        October 19, 2023 11:37am
- Biscuit
  
  Maggie. just about every time I saw Chippie campaigning he was munching on sausage rolls, pouring beers, making cakes, walking up and down a street with acolytes left, right and centre … all to get his face on that night’s TV News.
  
  [To be far, Kuxon nad Seymour were no different…]
  
  None of which would make any sane person want to vote for him.
  
  Chippie needs to get it into his skull that he grossly abused the trust given to him in umpteen portfolios – Education, Health, Police all spring to mind – and that, as a result, he didn’t ‘lose’ Auckland (and the country) he threw it away.
  
  Youa culpa, so to speak.
  
  And now he thinks that saying he has fire in his belly and that he wants to carry on as Leader is gonna bring the masses back?
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:52am
  - Biscuit
    
    Sheesh, Kuxon – my (in)famous typos are at it again!
    
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    October 19, 2023 8:54am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    Youa culpa, so to speak.
    
    Sua culpa (in Latin speak)
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:04am
    - Biscuit
      
      Ta, Maggy!
      
      You’ll have gathered that my Latin is even worse than my Maori!
      
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      October 19, 2023 9:13am
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        So’s mine…..
        
        but I was repeatedly told that it would come in useful one day….
        
        and perhaps after 58 years that day has arrived.
        
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        October 19, 2023 9:34am
      - kowtow
        
        Family goes to restaurant , sits down and the Dad orders a hock wine.
        Waiter goes “huh”, and the head of the family a Latin professor goes “yes , hock ” and then showing off to the table smugly declares “As in the latin , hic , haec , hoc” and looks around at his admiring family.
        Not having been served ,half an hour later he angrily calls the waiter over and demands “where’s my wine ”
        
        Waiter replies ” Sir , I clearly heard you decline your hocs”
        
        badum tish.
        
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        October 19, 2023 1:06pm
  - Loddenthinks
    
    His actions were pathetic, definitely, but his words even more so.
    
    Once they realised that everyone was laughing at their “policies” such as further enriching the supermarket duopoly by removing GST on fruit and vegetables, “free” dental care up to the age of 30 and a few other obviously unworkable bribes, every single Labour utterance was about how bad everything National’s and ACT’s policies were.
    
    They’re so stupid, and so badly advised (“Hey Clint, we stuffed up again!”) that they failed to realise we were sick of their negativity, sick of their empty promises and sick of their failure to deliver on anything.
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:12am
  - goNZ1
    
    if I had fire in my belly I would be looking for a fire extinguisher!
    
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    October 19, 2023 12:21pm
- Ruawai
  
  Actually Maggie, a lot of people in Auckland have obviously remembered that!
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:02am
- JimBobJoe
  
  I was on teams calls with project members based in Auckland during that lockdown. The building anger was palpable over the electronic ether. By the end mild mannered professionals where bubbling with rage.
  
  Labour punish people for their own political purposes and wonder why they get push back.
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:50am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Yes, snd as I stated yesterday Auckland gave 45% support to National over snd about the 38.95 they received in total, I think that held the specials will come from Auckland and they will follow the same vein, Hosking said that overseas votes was only 58000 or something like that, 500000 specials
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:02am
- mogg
  
  Jacinda was going to ‘stamp Covid out’, now she is just stamping her feet.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:07am
  - Flossie
    
    Is she even that bothered about what’s going on here now she’s run away?
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:23am
    - ClanMcleod
      
      Flossie – she doesn’t give a shit about NZ now and she never did. This was always about her. Her narcissism is as palpable as it is nauseating.
      She’s being fawned over in the US and she’ll be fawned over at the UN when she eventually finishes up there.
      I think she’s in for a shock though, that horse is leaving town in a hurry and she’s going to find herself on the wrong side of history, along with plenty of other people.
      
      Here’s hoping.
      
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      October 19, 2023 11:05am
- John Loveridge
  
  That’s only part of the story, Maggie. The first chapter perhaps.
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:08am
Matt Long

Russia collusion hoaxes all over Trump, but Chinese Communist Party donations to Obama’s campaign weren’t News?
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rapper-convicted-pumping-millions-obama-campaign-seeks-new-trial-ex-attorney-used-ai-argument
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October 19, 2023 8:35am
I remember when

Good news is hard to find this morning.
Wellington councillor tells people not to buy an apartment in Wellington – earthquake compliance.
In Christchurch a councillor is on the Tv encouraging locals to have their say on what is going to be expensive longterm planning requirements.
Ryan Bridge mentions earthquake strengthening costs for other prone areas – and I think of future insurance costs.
Not going to be my day.
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October 19, 2023 8:37am
Captain Mainwaring

So this idiot newsreader on Newstalk ZB by the name of Tony Doe insists on introducing himself with a tedious monologue of Maori words which mean absolutely nothing to 95% of his listeners.
Hasn’t anyone told him that Maori language week finished a few weeks ago?
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October 19, 2023 8:46am
- Cassandra
  
  Our retirement village manager starts her weekly newsletter with a Maori greeting and ends with a Maori sign off. She speaks no Maori. There’s one part Maori resident, out of 300 and he doesn’t speak Maori (he’s 1/8th, I knew his parents). Directive from Head Office. Dopey. Good on Maoris who want to speak Maori – go for it. But don’t expect me to speak it or spend money on it. This isn’t Wales. Most of us do not identify as Maori; those that do should simply get on with it. My heritage is Scots, 150 years ago. I’ll handle that myself, thanks.
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:55am
  - Arthur Fleck
    
    A local school cancelled a planned community consultation meeting with parents due to lack of interest. I was tempted to suggest to the school that peppering their initial emails with Maori might be contributing to parental disengagement. I myself pretty much insta-delete any such email. But I know my view would be unwelcome at best, so ignore them and get on with my day.
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:48am
  - John Loveridge
    
    I was once on a large construction site deep in the depths of the relatively Maori-free South Island. The nature of my work means I’m typically on site towards the end of the job, and at this point there only a few Filipino labourers doing the big clean-up, and about half a dozen whities like me wandering around carrying out last minute stuff. The weekly toolbox talk was still happening though, and it commenced with a surprise guest, the construction company’s big health-and-safety kahuna from Auckland. Bugger me, he got underway with a great long waffle in Maori! We honkies were looking at each other in bemusement, while the Flips just looked confused. After nearly two minutes (I timed it on my phone) the torrent of Maori ceased, and a construction company Portacom wallah asked, “Is there anybody who can translate that into Tagalog for us?”
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:16am
    - kowtow
      
      ‘in the depths of the relatively Maori-free South Island. ‘
      
      A Waikato, invading , colonialist saw to that.
      
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      October 19, 2023 4:01pm
- Arthur Fleck
  
  I think a lot of people are just disengaging because of it. Disengaging with society. Perhaps that’s the intention.
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:13am
  - Bridgenag
    
    Good article from Robert Malone this morning which I’ll post again
    
    The Shredded Social Contract –
    Systems are failing worldwide with dire consequences.
    
    https://open.substack.com/pub/rwmalonemd/p/the-shredded-social-contract?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:00am
    - Master Mariner
      
      Great article,
      “Over the weekend, this is what happened in New Zealand, one of the most locked down states in the world during the Covid years. The prime minister from those years, who claimed to be the one source of truth, has found sanctuary at Harvard while the politics of the nation have entered the upheaval stage. ”
      Not that NZ would know it however with a complicit / Embedded Media.
      With all luck she stays in her “Sanctuary”, Never too Leave.
      
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      October 19, 2023 1:40pm
- Bobba Fret
  
  Maori language week is no longer a week. Every news reader has been mandated it seems, to have to firstly greet us in Maori, then secondly in English. I would love just one TV One or TV3 newsreader to open with “Good evening, I’m …………” instead of the compulsory Maori greeting.
  I guess if they did, they would get a stern talking to and probably be taken off air.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:14am
  - igm
    
    Why do maori need school signs in te lingo when they do not even attend. By the way, when is this stoneage language going to be purged from radio, TV, and print news?
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:15am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Maori Language Week should be a week without Maori.
    All other weeks can be Maori.//
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:28am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Remember when Stuff was running articles where a paragraph in Te Reo alternated with a paragraph in English?
  
  That didn’t work out well, did it?
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:52am
  - Loddenthinks
    
    I’d be very interested to see the viewing (listening?) figures of the alternative commentary channel on RWC matches in te Reo. I’ll wager a pound to a pinch of goat poo they would be less than 1% of the viewers who tuned in to the commentary in the dominant language in New Zealand.
    
    Come to think of it, why aren’t they providing a commentary in New Zealand Sign Language?
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:16am
  - John Loveridge
    
    They’ve ceased that nonsense? Any reason given? Or just quietly binned?
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:19am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      Their Te Reo translator had a very dodgy history:
      
      In July last year he was hired by Stuff as a full-time te reo Māori translator.
      
      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300919846/teacher-at-elite-girls-school-had-sexual-relationship-with-16yearold-student
      
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      October 19, 2023 1:59pm
  - goNZ1
    
    metservice maps overun with maorificating too
    
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    October 19, 2023 12:28pm
  - Inandout
    
    I do note Court documents (other than the heading) are English only. I can imagine the utter confusion if legal terms were interspersed with Maori.
    
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    October 19, 2023 1:34pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Has the experiment of Massey running a Science campus in Albany turned into a failure?

https://asiapacificreport.nz/2023/10/19/massey-university-science-staff-students-fight-for-jobs-and-studies/

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/checkpoint/audio/2018909878/proposed-cuts-have-massey-uni-students-stressed-about-future
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October 19, 2023 8:47am
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  To ask is to answer, Comrade Maggy
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:28pm
Maggie Pie

TRENDING

Irrefutable proof from the IDF, who have just released the recording of a phonecall between two Hamas ragheads discussing the failed Islamic Jihad rocket that landed
near the Gaza hospital….

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1714539311914266931
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October 19, 2023 8:48am
- Libertarians are right
  
  There’s also now video, captured by a news crew of the rockets being fired out of Gaza and hitting the hospital. The rockets hit the parking lot, not the main building too (but obviously still did a lot of damage).
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:55am
- KH
  
  Yet Maggie, the IDF are now saying it was not a missile or bomb of theirs as there is no impact crater.
  When previously the IDF claimed it was a Hamas missile. ????
  So it was a missile that was not a missile?
  Best they get their story straight.
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:59am
  - James Stephenson
    
    Missile warheads typically don’t arm until after a significant time after launch. The nature of the blast (craterless) suggests an explosion of the large amount of propellant still on board but no warhead detonation.
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:53am
- Simon
  
  No to Middle East refugees. They cut off baby heads and everything. Not worth the risk.
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:06am
  - mogg
    
    Last week they were torturing and killing children, now we are supposed to believe that they wouldn’t lie about their own faulty sewer pipe missile
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:14am
  - sirknz
    
    I propose that we take 1% of the total that Jordan and Egypt are willing to take in currently…
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:47am
    - mawm
      
      Be generous and add in 1% of what Saudi will accept.
      
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      October 19, 2023 8:41pm
- Inandout
  
  Maggie, the replies from some non believers are quite astounding. ‘The callers spoke like Israelis, how come IDF didn’t intercept Hamas calls before they struck on Oct 7th, this is a typical IDF trick’. I suspect only a personal appearance by mohamed would change their minds.
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:35am
- ClanMcleod
  
  “Irrefutable…..”
  
  In this day and age? There is no such thing.
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:15am
Matt Long

So the Big Thing yesterday was that the evil Zionist had killed 500 people by bombing a hospital. The shrieking antisemites were all over it, from greens to Maori Party, Tau Henare, the acting foreign minister in her official capacity.
Then the IDF showed evidence of rocket strikes aimed at Haifa being fired at the same time.
This time, the shrieking was that no way could a rocket destroy a whole hospital, it has to be massive bomb.
Today’s pictures show cars damaged in a car park by a rocket, no noticeable damage to the hospital. Horrible for the victims still. Hamas has even more blood on its hands.
Apologies and retractions by the anti Semites? You’re joking, right?
https://x.com/TimEdwa17994672/status/1714644552429212107?s=20
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October 19, 2023 8:54am
- Cassandra
  
  Terrorists bombed their own car park immediately gets reported by the usual suspects as Israel blows up a hospital. And then they wonder why we think the media are a pack of ratbags.
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:58am
  - kowtow
    
    And this ties in with kk’s comment above .
    The msm here now are pushing a theme that we soaked up and consumed huge amounts of Russian disinformation re Covid ( thus effecting our election) .
    This is in today’s Herald and has been touted before.
    
    And yet the dis misinformation was coming from our regime itself and its many agents , including the marxist Kate Hannah. etc Bloomfield saying swimming wasn’t swimming . Etc
    
    Why would anyone trust them .
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:54am
  - goNZ1
    
    Hamas are desperately trying to get all the other terrorist groups involved including the mad mullahs in Iran- after their behaviour in the recent massacre of 1400 Israelis why do people think the hospital disaster isnt beyond them either?
    
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    October 19, 2023 12:33pm
- Maggie Pie
  
  Interesting that our own MSM were prepared to publish
  the Hamas propaganda without question…..
  
  https://twitter.com/bennyjohnson/status/1714690081330466930
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:59am
- Cassandra
  
  BBC journalist speculated Israel was behind Gaza hospital attack
  Jon Donnison said it was ‘hard to see’ past the Israeli military as source of attack as he reacted to Ahli Arab Hospital blast
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:00am
  - RoboRob
    
    BBC are in the pooh. They have long been considered a bunch of biased lefties but now that they have had to stand down 6 reports for biased pro Palestine reporting its all coming to a head.
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:44am
- NothingLeft
  
  A [Hamas fabrication, convenient to the anti-Israel left wing MSM] lie can get half way around the world before the truth can gets it’s pants on.
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:01am
  - RoboRob
    
    AND many people still believe it was Isreal!
    
    Funny how there was outrage about this when it was Isreals fault, now where is the outrage about Hamas blowing up a hospital?
    
    Funny how ‘reporters’ siad IDF frequently lie. No mention that the terrorist organisation Hamas might lie? Where are the appologies to the IDF? Where are the attacks on Hamas for lying about this?
    
    People on the left (which includes most media) are so locked in on their pro Palestine / anti Israel stance it is hard to admit the Hamas might actually be bad guys rather than ‘freedom fighers’.
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:49am
- emmess
  
  A few burnt out cars in a parking lot
  Luckily for Islamic Jihad, the death toll would have been no more than ten.
  The question is now, should Hamas’ overall death toll (of 3000 or so) start to be questioned?
  Is it wildly inflated?
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:05am
  - I remember when
    
    “A few burnt out cars in a parking lot.”
    
    So, was it an EV rocket?
    
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    October 19, 2023 4:25pm
- Nickc2
  
  I think it’s fair to say the ‘loony left’ which includes the Greens, TP Maori, and their compliant colleagues in the MSM are also the ones pushing the anti-Israel swell in Lil-Olde-NZ.
  I live in hope that someday in the not-too-distant future, somebody or organisation will put these Magots in their place while simultaneously purging our Universities of Professors and the like who foster BS and hatred in order to further their own political aspirations and reputations.
  PS: Has Marama Davidson departed for Gaza yet?
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:15am
Maggy Wassilieff

Sometimes I realise I have a very limited imagination.

Not in my wildest dreams could I have come up with an image of Paddy Gower simulating menopause.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2023/10/paddy-gower-menopause-put-me-in-sweaty-situation.html
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October 19, 2023 8:56am
- KH
  
  Hard to imagine anything worse than Gower’s dad jokes in the election night coverage. Nec Minut. There it is.
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:08am
- Biscuit
  
  Heh heh, Maggie.
  
  I forget who it was but some dopey reporter once asked a sports team manager if ‘in your wildest dreams, you thought you were going to win that’.
  
  The manager smiled and repled: ‘Son, my wildest dreams don’t feature sports…’
  
  Ditto, here, wih regard to any opinionist playing at being a journalist!
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:08am
- I remember when
  
  Men? Oh (pause.)
  
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  October 19, 2023 3:49pm
greybeard

Findlay Christie has been named as backup halfback for the game against Argentina.
I suppose that Foster had no choice about this, as he could hardly pick Roigard ahead of Christie for this match having already chosen Christie for the Irish match, even though he never played.

That means that Roigard will probably not play again this RWC, unless Foster picks him for the final if they get that far. Not likely, without any real game time.
Or Christie is injured.

Which just proves all the previous criticism of Foster’s selections was correct: by ranking Christie ahead of Roigard he made a bad mistake, Roigard’s particular skills won’t be used again.
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October 19, 2023 9:06am
- MCōs
  
  Lots of people know about it do they?
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:43am
- EpsomHB
  
  I disagree GB, I think Roigard was left out because he was not disciplined in the Uruguay game. I don’t think Roigard stuck to the game plan, and went for individual glory too many times, which effectively played himself out of his position. Both Smith and Christie, stick to the game plan and are safer.
  
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  October 19, 2023 12:05pm
- I remember when
  
  Findlay Christie has apparently been prefered because of ‘better defensive skills.’
  Of course, rugby games are won because of ‘better attacking skills.’
  The greatest improvement in defence is the result of having more points on the board than the opposition.
  
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  October 19, 2023 4:00pm
Cassandra

A spokesman for the BBC said: “We reject these claims about our coverage. Anyone watching, listening to or reading it can see we have set out both sides’ competing claims about the attack, clearly showing who is saying them, and what we do or don’t know.” Yeah right. “It’s hard to see past” is the BBC’s definition of balanced reporting.
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October 19, 2023 9:08am
mandk

No cartoons on Stuff since the General Election?

Sharon Murdoch and her buddies must be in mourning, poor loves.

Or perhaps Sharon has gone back to picking up dog shit. She’s probably a lot better at that than cartooning.
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October 19, 2023 9:13am
- Captain Mainwaring
  
  I suspect that $tuffed has run out of money to pay these talentless lefty fools.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:18am
  - bennerg
    
    Hopefully so. Their days are numbered.
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:30am
  - John Loveridge
    
    An acquaintance of mine was let go from Stuff during the last round of cuts to the editorial staff, some months ago. He’s still in touch with former colleagues and the word is that things are grim, getting grimmer by the day.
    
    This might also be the reason behind the cutbacks to Maori translations (as indicated by Maggy above). No money to pay the translators.
    
    I won’t shed a single tear if they go under.
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:27am
- NothingLeft
  
  Well dogshit has greater comedic and artistic merit than what she produced so maybe she’ll benefit and grow from observing more of it.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:18am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Her cartoons are dog shit !
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:32am
- Warren
  
  No but they were in the Waikato Times yesterday by Sharon Murdoch and J.M.Hibbard today.
  
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  October 19, 2023 1:09pm
Vinicius

Dame Tariana Turia believes more can be accomplished for Māori health under National.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/dame-tariana-turia-believes-more-can-be-accomplished-for-maori-health-under-a-national-led-government/ERO3TLO6ZVGPRGLTDVBRT4MY7U/

Dame Tariana said about Labour, “Labour’s a very interesting animal. You know, it wants to keep everybody in the same boat. And thinks that if they treat everybody the same everything will come out fine. And they don’t take into account the differences in the way people view things. For a party that actually enjoyed the Māori vote for so many years, they learned nothing.”

Re working with National she said, “I have to be honest and say that John Key and Bill English were amazing to work with.”
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October 19, 2023 9:15am
- Nickc2
  
  Don’t be surprised if the MSM refuses to publish Tariana’s comments.
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:36am
  - Ghost
    
    How can they refuse to publish it when it is actually a herald article?
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:46am
    - Nickc2
      
      Sorry, I didn’t read that far.
      
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      October 19, 2023 10:30am
Maggie Pie

After the bleakest 6 years in living memory, it’s almost hard to believe the sudden feelings of happiness and confidence I see people displaying out there!

But other than New Zealand, is there any other place in the world where something good is happening?
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October 19, 2023 9:18am
- Cassandra
  
  Argentina, libertarian heading for presidency.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:31am
- John Loveridge
  
  It has been transformative. I’m hearing happiness all over the place. People everywhere have had a weight lifted.
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:28am
- MCōs
  
  “After the bleakest 6 years in living memory”
  
  Says the lady who paid $400 for a couple of crayfish
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:46am
Maggy Wassilieff

What are the ethics of Cabinet Ministers moving into Consultancies that are dependent on the relationships they cultivated whilst in Government?

https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2023/10/18/bryce-edwards-more-ex-labour-ministers-move-into-lobbying/

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/national/ethics-of-former-cabinet-minister-kiri-allans-new-consultancy-job-questioned-by-political-expert/

Herald investigative business journalist Kate MacNamara delved into Nash’s appointment last week and pointed out that his lobbying role raised significant potential conflicts of interest. She found that in the last fiscal year for which figures are available, Nash’s new firm “supplied $64m of contract labour and recruiting services to the 10 public service ministries and departments which spent the most on contractors and consultants”. And a big chunk of that was spent by the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment (MBIE), for which Nash, as then Minister for Economic and Regional Development, was responsible for.
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October 19, 2023 9:25am
- Dudley Quaffquaff
  
  They’re only allowed to seek to make a living in areas where they don’t know anybody and have no experience?
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:45am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    What’s wrong with expecting them to have a stand-down period ?
    
    Australia and Canada have clear rules requiring former ministers to undergo a stand-down period of up to a year before they can become involved in businesses drawing on their inside knowledge as a minister.
    
    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/the-urgent-need-to-update-the-rules-on-political-conflicts-of-interests
    
    That’s what lots of Businesses expect for their departing staff who have had access to confidential information about contracts etc.
    
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    October 19, 2023 6:47pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  Robert Walters, yes. Meh. Robert Walters is a well known international recruitment firm. I was once a contract accountant placed through RW while in the UK.
  
  Nash’s contacts at MBIE will be very senior; the type that don’t actually hire too many people.
  
  Though, a stand-down period for lobbying roles should be mandatory.
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:36pm
RoboRob

The stupid host on Newstalk ZB christchurch started his show by talking about the council being in financial difficulty. Then swiftly proceeded to talking about how the council should wave interest on a loan to Chricket NZ for the lights at their new ground.

Seemed incapable of realising that one of the reasons councils are in such bad shape is that they hand out money left and right to good causes. Yes the lights are a good idea. Yes the light benefit CHCH.

BUT the loan was made for a fixed term and interest rate. Cricket want it extended by 5yrs and interest free. That wasn’t the deal and we dont have the cash.

His argument that rugby teams wont be paying for the lights in the new stadium ignores two facts. One, the council should not be building the stadium because they cant afford it and two rugby ARE paying towards the new stadium.

No wonder NZ is in financial difficulty when people think that just becuase a project is ‘good’ we should do it, regardless of whether we have the money or not.

This same turkey will be out moaning about ridiculous rate rises or cuts to library / pool services. Where the fuck do they think the money comes from. Fucking morons.

p.s. In favour of the new stadium, but the fact is we cant afford the quoted cost let alone the normal massive overrun cost.

p.p.s. Yes this sort of thick makes me angry 🙂
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October 19, 2023 9:27am
- Vinicius
  
  Local government concerns me greatly when you have our 2nd and 3rd largest cities of Christchurch and Wellington run by people who are totally incompetent.
  
  Sorry I voted for Mauger, he is a fool.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:13am
  - RoboRob
    
    Sadly agree, and I voted for him too. The issue is, I am pretty sure the other guy (lefty, hospital manager) would have been even worse.
    
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    October 19, 2023 1:42pm
- Skippytony
  
  If you ever wanted a better example of the truism that you get the government you deserve, Christchurch is a great example. The idiots running Hagley oval signed off on an insane business case and now want the ratepayers to pick up the tab. Well guess what fellas? F*#@ right off. That giant swimming pool is still not finished and they are already saying we cant afford the ones we have got. That new stadium will be a giant black hole for ratepayers funds forever. The southern library at Beckenham was new built what, 2005? Now they are saying its got to be pulled down due to EQ damage. Why, FFS are we building libraries? I would love to see the business case. Last time I looked, actual borrowings from libraries has collapsed. So its reinventing itself as a “community resource” that makes zero financial sense but “we have to have libraries”. These decisions make zero financial sense.
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:16am
  - NothingLeft
    
    Libraries should all be digital now. Change copyright laws to make it possible at reasonable cost. Copyright should not last for more than 20 years (same as for patents)
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:48am
    - James Stephenson
      
      It’s a thing already – I borrow from Auckland libraries via the Libby app.
      
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      October 19, 2023 12:52pm
  - RoboRob
    
    The day the mayor announced the financial difficulties was also the day they announced a $33m library rebuild. You just cant make this shit up.
    
    I live near a library. It is massive and lightly used. It is open 6 days a week : Mon-Frr 9am to 8pm, SAt 10-4. Now I understand the need to get full use of the facilities but 9am-8pm is one hell of a lot of library staff wages for a place most come to for computer access or reading newspapers.
    
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    October 19, 2023 1:35pm
- Handyman
  
  I don’t know what the “correct” level of rates should be. I suspect it is much more than currently.
  However, no matter what the rates revenue, councils will spend 80% of vanity projects and underfund infrastructure and long term assets. Think opera house vs water mains.
  The reason is that they are rational. When they “run out of money” after spending on cycle lanes they can threaten to reduce popular, if not essential, services such as libraries. Presto a large rates increase and no one mentions the pet project already approved.
  
  Lately there has been an increase in a further strategy.
  Wellington: We have spent all our money on ego driven building restorations and cycle lanes so the government needs to pay to fix water problems.
  Auckland: We want a new stadium which we calling the “National Stadium” so therefore the (new) government has to pay. That is as cynical as naming town halls after local mayors.
  
  Solution1: Extend the Watercare model. If you don’t want effluent in the harbour, expect your water bill to increase. Not political — just maths, and has no impact on libraries.
  
  Solution2: Enforce a law from the 1990s forcing all councils to spend the infrastructure depreciation allowance on maintenance.
  
  Solution3: Electricity and water bills are paid directly by the occupier. Rates should also be paid directly by the occupier which will get more people caring about what the money is spent on. Currently renters (green and labour voters) do not pay rates so their wish list is endless. (Yes I know they pay indirectly, but they do not realise that).
  
  Solution4. Any proposal to council with the words “world leading” or “will put New Zealand on the map” should be binned immediately.
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:52am
  - RoboRob
    
    Agree with 2, 3,4. Disagree that rates need to rise further. NO.
    
    The issue is we need to live within our budget and pay down debt. If we pay down debt the interest costs disappear and will allow room for more spending. It might be nice to have stadiums, librarys open 24hrs a day, festivals, sister cities, mayoral cars, art projects etc but if we dont have the money left after paying for essentials (water, roading, waste) then we have to scrap them.
    
    p.s. I see the CHCH coucil, like many others around the country, are growing wild flowers in parks. This was sold as, ‘might even save money through less mowing’. The truth is they have dug irregular shapes ($$) in multiple areas of the parks. Planted the seads ($) and the bought multiple signs to place by each area explaining what this going on and asking people to stay off ($$$). Sound like something a council with financial issues should be doing?
    
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    October 19, 2023 1:41pm
Bridgenag

That black cloud has been lifted
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October 19, 2023 9:36am
- MCōs
  
  Not in Christchurch apparently
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:48am
  - RoboRob
    
    Or Dunedin
    
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    October 19, 2023 1:43pm
Maggie Pie

And just before I head up to NW……does anyone here know what’s happened with that violent convicted Czech drug dealer?
Last we heard he was awaiting deportation back to his own country.

Asking for a friend.
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October 19, 2023 9:38am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  I think he’s still here..
  
  Something here about an appeal in June 2023, but it’s paywalled.
  
  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/czech-drug-smuggler-and-former-kickboxing-champ-karel-sroubek-can-remain-in-nz-pending-last-ditch-appeal-bid-despite-deportation-decision/HHQOL2NRSVCKBMIZSWQ57TNPKQ/
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:01am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    And then there’s something about a case in the High Court last month involving him….
    
    20230928 High Court daily list
    
    Courts of New Zealand
    https://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz › calendar › 20…
    28/09/2023 — CIV2020-404-2463 KAREL SROUBEK v. ALEXANDER BOZHENKO & ORS. (Self Rep). (L Fox, W McCartney). Case Management Teleconference. NO LG 2 COURT.
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:05am
  - kevn
    
    There you go Maggie… still around.
    
    https://mailchi.mp/2fe2184ff336/update-25-december-10667973?e=c102453888
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:26am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      Cheers,
      but I can’t access the 28/09/2023 Court hearing
      
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      October 19, 2023 10:55am
      - Maggie Pie
        
        It would appear to be the same one Kev has provided.
        Same names. Although date is 28/07/2023.
        Do you think u may have got the ‘month’ rong in the link perhaps?
        
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        October 19, 2023 11:58am
    - KH
      
      What is the problem in New Zealand? Why is it so hard to get this parasite on a plane – should have happened years ago.
      Similarly, any drunken backpacker who throws a punch – on the plane in 24 hours.
      Call it the “No More Problem Policy”.
      
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      October 19, 2023 11:10am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Thnx for that Maggz. Just back now. And it was fab to see the price of Limes has nearly halved in the last month. Now down to 30 bucks kg.
    
    So, looks like the criminal villian is still here then 🙁
    Def something very strange going on behind the scenes methinks.
    Will be interesting to see what happens next with a new Jus.Min. Hmmm.
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:30am
- RoboRob
  
  Would also like to know about Kim DotCom.
  
  Mr DotCom lost his last appeal ~2 yrs ago and has not re appealed (to my knowledge). That means he should have been deported and the only thing preventing deportation was a ministerial pardon. I expected a last minute pardon from labour but perhaps they just haven’t gotten around to making a decision.
  
  A pardon now, as a caretaker government, would be VERY on the nose.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:01am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Can’t agree with you there Robo. Who would you rather have as your neighbor….the Dots, or Mr Scroubek?
    My partner has known KDC for years (on a business basis) and still keeps in touch. I really miss the soirees at the Coatesville mansion.
    
    Kimiee really is a lovely guy that has contributed sooo much since he arrived here….the country could do with a lot more like him.
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:43am
  - NothingLeft
    
    He’s gotten married to a kiwi and has more kiwi-born kids now, he’s also stopped getting involved in politics. Judiciary will likely find some excuse not to deport him, personally I can’t see there’s much benefit to NZ in doing so anymore, better to have him living an extravagant lifestyle here and pumping money into NZ economy
    
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    October 19, 2023 11:44am
    - RoboRob
      
      Well, the reason to deport him is the law. The US wanted him, we have an agreement with them. If he is guilty or not is up to them. He made a mockery of our legal system (or showed it for the joke it is) and police. It was his choice to marry and child up while facing deportation. It was his choice to drag it out for as long as possible. The courts found he should be extradited, lets just do it and leave it to the US. He can always come back after winning his case.
      
      Since it was a Biden thing and we are two presidents later AND the entire world has moved on from piracy issues it’s likely the US dont even want him now.
      
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      October 19, 2023 1:48pm
      - NothingLeft
        
        Given recent highly politicized behavior of US DOJ I am far less inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt with regard to prosecutions of people that piss off big donors and political power brokers. To wit their persecution of non-resident foreign journalist Julian Assange.
        
        I don’t doubt that Kim Schmidt profited mightily by running a nudge nudge wink wink file storage site that also happened to be a huge portal for illegal distribution of copywrited material. And he should face the law for that. But I don’t think a life sentence is warranted, and I wouldn’t trust US DOJ to pass a more proportionate sentence.
        
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        October 19, 2023 3:10pm
      - Keith White
        
        RR: would that law be the same legal system wot decided that while the government broke the law by driving a truck through it with the lockdowns, Parliament could pass any law it likes – so the judiciary just gave the government a metaphorical slight / light/ kissy-kissy pat on the metacarpals for overreaching – but wouldn’t do anything about enforcing the law.
        
        Since that time, New Zealand law is basically tottering entirely on a foundation of “situational ethics”. We see this with ram raids, benefit fraud, cultural reports to keep prisoners out of where they belong, and those in many other instances.
        
        When the law is not applied consistently and fairly, and only against those whom the government of the day chooses to single out for despisement (yeah I made that up, so sue me…) then there is no social contract between the governed and the government anymore.
        
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        October 19, 2023 7:32pm
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        NothingLeft – agreed. KDC is clearly a tosser but he really got up some US noses & I wouldn’t wish Super Max on him.
        
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        October 19, 2023 9:42pm
- JimBobJoe
  
  Labour looked after their mate is one read, I would think it goes back to a Minister for a final decision in time. And the National Minister will send him home.
  
  How a Hell Angels associate with drug convictions can stay in the country is beyond me. He is in danger back in Czech Republic? Having a laugh. Do silly crimes pay silly penalties..
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:20am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

New fence rule?
Well it has to apply to all – no exemptions, and I mean gang headquarters.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/national/very-prescriptive-am-hosts-react-to-controversial-new-fence-rule-proposal/ar-AA1iszDe?
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October 19, 2023 10:03am
Vinicius

It is now five days since the voters gave Labour the big heave-ho. I’ve been thinking about both where Labour went seriously wrong and a prediction about the coalition talks.

WHY LABOUR LOST THEIR WAY

Labour was out of touch with the electorate well before Ardern resigned early this year.

1. The typical Labour belief in big government and throwing money at everything.

2. Thinking that having a leader they thought was ‘charsimatic’ was going to work for them. It did for a while but eventually Ardern’s and the cabinet’s inability to understand policy settings in from anything such as COVID to social issues, health, law and order, and the economy became corrosive.

3. Ardern as PM told us to be kind over and over. Pity she didn’t practice what she preached before Labour inflicted some of those harsh lockdowns particularly the one on Auckland.

4. With inexperienced ministers in critical portfolios and a revolving door of changes to cabinet roles this contributed to them being seen as an unstable and incompetent government.

5. They sold their souls to a devil named woke and identity politics.

6. Having large sections of the media acting as their poodles and their mouthpieces over a long period was damaging. It probably contributed to them taking their eye off the ball and not being aware of the pulse of the New Zealand electorate. Nearly a week after the election and they still don’t know what went wrong.

7. When Hipkins took over as PM he quickly morphed into a Leader of the Opposition and didn’t look Prime Ministerial in the TV debates with Luxon.

THE COALITION TALKS

1. Luxon has wisely shut out the media so far. I think there is also a bit of retribution for how he was treated by the 4th estate during the campaign.

2. If and when he can form a government Luxon will announce it as the incoming PM and won’t allow Winston Peters to grandstand and make the announcement like happened after the 1996 and 2017 elections.
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October 19, 2023 10:04am
- bennerg
  
  Basically leftist polititians are ideologues, trying to convince the world to adopt their philosophies and their world view.
  
  They are not act as elected representatives, as they in no way wish to represent the views of the citizens who elect them.
  
  Their approach is the antithesis of democracy.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:36am
- peterwn
  
  Chris Luxon can signal to Government House that he is in a position to form a government even without NZF. The ball would then be in Winston’s court as to whether to immediately bring the Government down. Chris Hipkins has indicated he is in no position to form a Government but presumably could change his mind when final results are declared. Chris Luxon should watch out for a ‘Trojan Horse’ there.
  If Winston did bring a National Government down the Governor General would pause to give a chance for an alternative Government to be formed before allowing a fresh election. Forcing an election is very risky for Winston since he could get wiped out again.
  Chris Luxon, Nicola and Bish will be using all their political acumen in sorting out a strategy for this political game of chess.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:38am
  - Vinicius
    
    You’re right @peterwn.
    
    I am hopeful there are enough wise heads inside National to a) learn from mistakes the outgoing administration made and b) engage with those who had senior roles in the last National government for advice and feedback. This appears to be happening already.
    
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    October 19, 2023 10:49am
  - rjay
    
    My information is that Labour backroomers have broached with Greens and Te Pati Maori giving Winston the Prime Ministership. TPM is not playing ball.
    
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    October 19, 2023 1:30pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  To your point about Luxons silence on the talks, I note Peters was very disciple to not utter an English word when pounced on by media, I heard media say Peters is furious that Luxon has not contacted him just after Luxon has stated that The National party had reached out to Peters and NZF, just perhaps Luxon has worked on Peters and said let’s shut the media down during the talks, Peters silence was deafening, and it possibly a good sign.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:44am
- peterwn
  
  8. Jacinda was poor at governance and management. In Animal Farm terms she was Squealer trying to do Napoleon’s job. So this meant her Ministers were shooting off all over the place. Chris Luxon is the opposite – skilled manager, sound understanding of governance but a bit short on the charisma. He will be well placed to keep his Ministers on track.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:44am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Stop Co-Governance. Julian Batchelor.

Read about what ‘Tino Rangatiratanga’ really means in the link.

https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/blog/what-does-tino-rangatiratanga-mean-how-activists-have-used-these-words-to-plunder-new-zealand/?
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October 19, 2023 10:11am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  You will note in the link that ‘Sue’ mentions forestry and fisheries.
  She is obviously working from the rogue 1975 Waitangi Tribunal version of the Treaty.
  
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  October 19, 2023 10:34am
goNZ1

stuffed reports today ”An 18-year-old was listening to music while walking on railway tracks when he was struck by a train in Canterbury.”

I reckon that is possibly a bit risky…
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October 19, 2023 10:29am
- ClanMcleod
  
  Sad, but a prime candidate for this year’s Darwin Awards.
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:21am
- sirknz
  
  Such evolutionary novel behaviour certainly decreases ones life expectancy…
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:30am
- NothingLeft
  
  same happened to a classmate of mine 30 years ago. Highly intelligent idiot.
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:40am
- Maggie Pie
  
  Wonder if the train driver had a chance to blow his horn?
  You’d think that would get anyones attention….even if listening to music.
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:51am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    The train drivers do blow the horn, throw the emergency brake on, and turn around.
    In the case of a passenger unit they turn and go through the door.
    Trains don’t stop that quick.
    
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    October 19, 2023 12:16pm
    - Maggie Pie
      
      Had an Asian student wearing headphones step out in front of me recently onto the pedestrian crossing in Symonds Street next to the Uni. She didn’t even look!
      
      Blew the horn as hard as I could and honestly, she nearly sh!t herself!!
      Bet she won’t do that again in a hurry..
      
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      October 19, 2023 12:30pm
- MCōs
  
  Something similar happened at a level crossing on a street where I worked in Bangkok
  It seems the train stopped, the bits and pieces of the poor girl were picked out from the wheels of train and normal service was resumed.
  Life’s cheap in some parts of the world
  
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  October 19, 2023 11:59am
- cmm
  
  Sounds like suicide to me.
  
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  October 19, 2023 12:27pm
- BananaLlama
  
  Had this happen to a friend of mine walking home after he had finished work, listening to his walkman and didn’t hear the train come from behind.
  
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  October 19, 2023 12:31pm
- fightingtemeraire
  
  ABout 10 years ago my son was on a bus in Wellington which was drawing into the bus stop. Bus doing about 5km.
  
  Person with ear phones in just walked out in front of the bus. Drivers didn’t have a chance to stop!!!
  
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  October 19, 2023 5:30pm
Swifty

We currently have a festering sore in our new Parliament and, as a nation, we are just not talking about it.

The coverage of the Maori Party’s success in the election has been extensive since Saturday – but not once have I seen reference to the fact that a vast proportion of their 2020 election donations (hundreds of thousands of dollars) were been received from the Waipareira Trust in an act expressly forbidden by the relevant charities legislation.

We know that the Charities Commission has directed that the donations, dressed as loans, be repaid but have they? Will there be any sort of prosecution as a punishment for this unlawful behaviour and as a warning to others?

Since Saturday I’ve seen dozens of posts on ‘X’ and ‘Facebook’ that the Nats and ACT have ‘bought themselves an election’ – an apparent reference to those parties having extraordinary success with their fundraising activities, far more than other parties – but with no suggestion whatsoever of illegality. Shaneel Lal has recently written a whole column on it and called for complete changes to our donation rules to eliminate National and ACT’s supposed advantage in this area (but on this Maori Party issue he is strangely silent).

With the Maori Party we have clear illegality but the left is silent! The media is silent! Who is following up on this? Tamihere calls any enquiry into their affairs and scrutiny of campaign funding as racist and totalitarian – are we just going to let this gentlemen ride roughshod over the campaign financing and charities rules that everyone else has to follow?

As far as I’m concerned the Maori Party is in receipt of massive campaign financing illegally and illegitimately obtained. Their electoral success is tainted therefore as a result.

This is Zimbabwe stuff and, diverting great pots of money expressly intended for Trust Purpose ‘A’ and converting it into use for Political Purpose ‘B’, and, it appears, nobody is doing a damn thing about it.

John Tamihere-Mugabe must be held to account.
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October 19, 2023 10:45am
- Swifty
  
  Nothing to see here says John Mugabe – it’s not Trust money and only to be spent in compliance with its trust deed, it’s all Maori money and Maori can do what they like with it! And, it’s racist to even question it.
  
  https://www.teaonews.co.nz/2023/05/18/waipareira-trust-to-try-to-claw-back-385000-in-loans-to-john-tamihere-campaigns/
  
  FFS – this is the puppet master behind the Maori Parry MPs!
  
  To hell with trust law. To hell with charities law. To hell with transparency and accountability. To hell with pakeha. To hell with financial responsibility. To hell with the truth. To hell with anyone who stands in our way!
  
  To those who voted for this lot – I hope you are fully prepared for the consequences and that you receive them good and hard.
  
  To New Zealanders – welcome to your future under co-governance.
  
  This is what ‘decolonisation’ New Zealand-style looks like. Happy now?
  
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  October 19, 2023 4:13pm
- Tauhei Notts
  
  The word I get is that John Tamihere has sold his home in Te Atatu.
  Maybe steps are being taken to reduce that loan from the Waipareira Trust. Interestingly, as it is a charitable trust, low interest loans (in this case zero interest) do not attract Fringe Benefits Tax.
  I wonder, if the Trust lost its charitable status, would a huge Fringe Benefit Tax liability accrue.
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:59pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  John Tamihere financing his son-in-law into a job
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:46pm
James Stephenson

I thought Seymour’s response was perfect:

People don’t donate so we say what they like, they donate because they like what we say.”
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October 19, 2023 11:58am
NeverMindTheBollocks

Hooking up off shore wind farms to the national grid will cost EUR10B more than estimated.

‘Reality has returned to the European offshore wind sector … This news has come as a shock to mainstream political parties … consumers should expect substantially higher electricity prices …’

https://oilprice.com/Alternative-Energy/Wind-Power/Dutch-Energy-Minister-Admits-That-Wind-Power-Agenda-Is-Pricier-Than-Anticipated.html
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October 19, 2023 12:07pm
- kowtow
  
  Who ever thought building your power infrastructure in places next to impossible to defend from an enemy attack was a great idea .
  
  We do not live in a benign security environment.
  
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  October 19, 2023 12:54pm
Maggie Pie

Heard new police minister Mark Mitchell being interviewed on ZB about gangs.

Listening to him speak about the way he’s going to handle the law & order problems besetting the country, it makes you realise just how f–king useless Poto Williams, Stewart Nash, Chis Hipkins and Ginny Anderson really were!

Just saying.
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October 19, 2023 12:21pm
- Blog-aholic
  
  They still are. Just because they are not running the shit show doesn’t mean they are not still useless. Useless usually lasts a lifetime.
  
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  October 19, 2023 12:58pm
Tom Hunter

I see the NYT is not happy about Biden’s visit to Israel, but I did laugh when they wrote this…

Rarely has an overseas presidential expedition been so freighted with jeopardy both political and physical….

… and thought to myself, Yeah, and that’s just the stairs on Air Force One.
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October 19, 2023 12:35pm
- kowtow
  
  Have you noticed he now uses the downstairs stairs , so there’s less chance of slipping and less effort involved.
  
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  October 19, 2023 4:09pm
- RdM
  
  I was so astonished by the use of freighted instead of fraught that I had to look it up.
  
  Reading the NYT article, I see you quoted exactly.
  
  Looking up freighted and fraught definitions, I was surprised to see a very few instances of freighted being used in that sense, rather than as for shipping cargo, but I think it’s fairly archaic.
  
  Scots maybe too.
  
  https://www.dictionary.com/browse/freighted
  
  verb (used with object)
  
  8. to load; burden: a story heavily freighted with private meaning.
  
  9. to load with goods or merchandise for transportation: It took all night to freight the ship.
  
  10. to transport as freight; send by freight.
  
  Regards ~
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:45pm
goNZ1

In celebration of the Great NZ Nact Victory of 14 October 2023 over the Socialists I propose we all take Monday off and call it LABOUR DAY !!
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October 19, 2023 12:47pm
- greybeard
  
  A National holiday !
  And we can all ACT the goat !
  
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  October 19, 2023 3:03pm
Chuck Bird

I just heard Seymour on with Jamie McKay talking about working with Peters. He repeated his usual comments about Peters history and then said he would do his best to work with him.

Does he not realize many people do not like nasty and vindictive politicians. I know many here may agree with him about Peters. However, do they feel the same about Bob McCoskrie of Family First?

I know Bob well and I took exception to Seymour calling him a liar.

Who here who thinks Bob is an honest man please uptick. Those who think Seymour was right and he is a liar downtick.
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October 19, 2023 1:10pm
- Inandout
  
  Seymour should realise this is the way MMP operates, a flawed system for sure but shit happens.
  
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  October 19, 2023 1:41pm
- James Stephenson
  
  Presumably the context is McCoskrie deliberately misrepresenting Seymour’s End of Life Bill, in which case “liar” is a reasonable label IMO.
  
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  October 19, 2023 2:30pm
  - Chuck Bird
    
    Did you watch the video of Seymour calling McCoskrie a liar? I did. McCoskrie’s concern was Seymour widening the criteria. Seymour had already indicated that was his intention.
    
    Seymour should have realized how many followers McCoskrie has. There are tens of thousands who have watched the video.
    
    Votes wen from Act to NZF.
    
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    October 19, 2023 2:53pm
    - All_on_Red
      
      Voters went from Labour to NZ First, not from Act
      
      ‘tens of thousands who have watched’
      Prove it or it didnt happen
      
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      October 19, 2023 3:51pm
- peterwn
  
  I take Family First with a grain of salt because it is in reality a vehicle to push very conservative views on selected topics. As far as I am concerned it would have far more credibility if it would concern itself with matters genuinely affecting most families.
  
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  October 19, 2023 2:57pm
- cmm
  
  I doubt there are tens of thousands who know who Bob McCoskrie is.
  
  There are probably a few tens of thousand who have heard of Family First, but only a fraction of those could actually tell you what they stand for.
  
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  October 19, 2023 4:01pm
  - Chuck Bird
    
    Mainly against abortion and euthanasia.
    
    I have seen the numbers who viewed Family First videos.
    
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    October 19, 2023 4:57pm
sirknz

But no mention of their ‘whakapapa’.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime/hospital-drop-off-homicide-thomas-and-rocky-ngapera-sentenced-for-role-in-rangiwhero-ngaronoas-death/BTTSJIOP3VCKTMMD4W5XLLB3TA/

Strange that…
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October 19, 2023 1:18pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Seems to have been Black Power…
  
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  October 19, 2023 1:56pm
Its only I

When LGB is about men liking men and women liking women, and TQ don’t want to say what a man is or what a woman is, how is LGBTQ possible?
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October 19, 2023 1:25pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Chris Trotter understands the mind of working-class NZers.

Labour-luvvies haven’t a clue about the lives of NZers who rejected their Government.

Almost accidentally, Labour discovered what it would take to make the working-class stop voting for it. Not the Pasefika working-class, admittedly, but the “settler” working-class – made up of Pakeha New Zealanders and the children and grandchildren of immigrant workers. Making those citizens feel as though they had, somehow, to justify their right to participate in shaping their nation’s future: that was the crucial catalyst for electoral defection.

https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2023/10/19/chris-trotter-losing-the-working-class/#more-25001
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October 19, 2023 1:47pm
- Swifty
  
  Excellent!
  
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  October 19, 2023 2:09pm
  - greybeard
    
    Trotter is almost there: he just has to drop “pakeha” as a descriptor .
    Why should mainly-European New Zealanders be categorised using some maori word with doubtful provenance?
    
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    October 19, 2023 3:00pm
    - Swifty
      
      I agree, and of course there’s the issue of non-Euro NZers – are they pakeha too?
      
      There is much talk in my multi-cultural circles that, for example, our Indian and Chinese etc brethren are just as disgusted at this co-governance business as any of us. Perhaps more so. They fled their countries to escape all this class/caste crap – to arrive in the supposed egalitarian west to now find we are steadily marching backwards. Back to tribalism and multi-classes of citizenship. Back to a state religion!
      
      Unbelievable.
      
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      October 19, 2023 4:19pm
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        Our fellow citizens of Indian, Chinese, Filipino, Korean, Pacific Islands etc, descent seem to be the collateral damage of the Co-Governance debacle.
        
        Their voices have been muted…. especially when they have been the victims of assaults, robberies and murders.
        
        11 0
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        October 19, 2023 5:00pm
- Dudley Quaffquaff
  
  Love “(Labour’s) dangerous propensity to good-naturedly wave Maori issues through policy checkpoints”. That’s so well-put.
  
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  October 19, 2023 2:35pm
- BananaLlama
  
  Labour and the Greens got what they wanted in the end now they will only answer to the Lanyard class.
  
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  October 19, 2023 2:55pm
- nathie
  
  Agree with Chris Trotter but notice he talks a lot about the co-governance issue (in other articles too) as being a reason why Labour’s support has dropped with NZ’ers.
  
  But he never talks about Labour’s covid response as also being a major reason why Labour’s support tanked. Especially in Auckland.
  
  However I also recall him viewing the anti-mandate protests at Parliament last year as a serious threat to the Ardern Govt and called for the State to unleash violence on mainly peaceful protesters to drive them out. Hmmm …
  
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  October 19, 2023 3:40pm
Chuck Bird

An interesting view.

The Left’s Long War on Israel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-hrGiuTfvw
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October 19, 2023 1:52pm
goNZ1

how many of you guys know what this govt organisation does ?

Te Pā Whakamarumaru
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October 19, 2023 3:30pm
- Blog-aholic
  
  Once known as the NZSIS. I wonder what 007 is in maori?
  
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  October 19, 2023 3:43pm
  - cmm
    
    It’s easy to translate anything into the original Maori script:
    ” “
    
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    October 19, 2023 3:58pm
- Albie
  
  GoNZ1- No idea, but neither do our enemies! A master stroke in subterfuge. Finally, Te Reo put to productive use!
  
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  October 19, 2023 4:46pm
Nookin

SIS?
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October 19, 2023 3:51pm
- Martonman
  
  White Male?
  
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  October 19, 2023 5:04pm
cmm

Anyone who thinks National did at all well this election should compare the results to 2017. 2020 doesn’t really count because that was completely screwed by CV19 fear porn etc.

In 2023, National got 39% of the vote (rounded to closest %). In 2017 they got 44%. A whole 5% worse in 2023.

Labour, of course, went down by 10%. Twice as bad.

Winston First lost 1%. If he hadn’t found the Covid stuff to exploit then he’d have been out of parliament again.

Green went up 5% (nearly doubled).
Maori Party doubled too.

ACT went up from 0.5% to 9%. An 18x increase.

National should read those tea leaves and ask themselves why they did so badly when Labour pretty much handed it to them on a plate.

ACT’s gain is really good, but any excitement should be tempered by the fact that the Greens and Maori rabble-rousers have doubled their support.
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October 19, 2023 4:27pm
bennerg

The NZ Herald reports on Liz Gunn and Jonathan Clark in Court re the “scuffle” at the Airport earlier this year. A couple of issues here:

1. The CCTV of that incident has been “lost”.

2. The Police are still holding the SD card Clark filmed.

The Herald in it’s usual arrogant way changed the topic and also stated:

“However, the party’s [NZ Loyal] results in each of the electorates were dwarfed by National, Labour, Act, New Zealand First and the Green party which all received thousands or in some cases more than 10,000 more than New Zealand Loyal.”

They did not state that NZ Loyal got almost half the number of votes (26,141) of Te Pati Maori (58,949) in it’s first outing. While our electoral system does not assign List MPs below 5%, if it did NZ Loyal would get 2 MP’s. For a basically one person party she did allright.

Not endorsing their policies here, just trying to highlight the fact again that sadly our MSM do not report objectively, and do not appear to raise issues such as the items listed above. As w should should expect the Fourth Estate to do – if it was doing it’s job.
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October 19, 2023 4:46pm
- reubee
  
  By my count, if there was no threshold NZ Loyal would only have got 1 MP, not 2.
  
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  October 19, 2023 5:56pm
  - bennerg
    
    Thanks Reubee … mea culpa! Still the point is NZ Loyal got half the votes of Te Pati Maori, a well funded and long standing party.
    
    NZ Herald should respect – and report that.
    
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    October 19, 2023 8:38pm
blue collar

Well at least everyone has shutup about Ukraine .
I don’t care about the Ukraine conflict
I don’t care about the Israel conflict

I care more that bob jones blog has finished .
It has far more relevance and contribution to my life than those theatres of war

Even Maggie’s news about the price of limes is more relevant

Why waste emotional energy on those shit shows ?
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October 19, 2023 4:59pm
Maggie Pie

Chippie admits Tony is a paid up member of the National Party.
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October 19, 2023 5:35pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  What about Toni?
  
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  October 19, 2023 9:51pm
Sparrow

I was surprised to find out on the Saturday night TV3 election panel that the votes of the minor parties who do not get an electorate seat or get 5% of votes get their votes given to the major parties. So a minor party voter gets at present 39% of their vote given to National etc etc. I was totally unaware of this it seems undemocratic. If I had voted for a minor party totally opposed to National then find part of my vote had gone to them I would be pissed off. Why does this happen ?
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October 19, 2023 5:45pm
- H. Upmann
  
  That is always how it rolled.
  Did you vote for MMP Sparrow, but forgot to read the fine print?
  
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  October 19, 2023 6:46pm
  - Sparrow
    
    I do have an excuse sort of. I left NZ whilst still using first past the post and returned after MMP was introduced. Yes I am guilty of not reading up on MMP. I believe I am not alone.
    
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    October 19, 2023 7:09pm
- cmm
  
  The split of the vote is close to not having voted at all.
  Them’s the rules of MMP.
  
  What you are saying would be more democratic, and I agree, is pretty much preferential voting (PV). That was an option during the 1990s election reforms, but people chose what we have – MMP.
  
  PV means you can rank the parties. For example, if you wanted TOP, with a back up of Green you could do that. If TOP don’t get enough support then your vote gets transfered to your second option etc.
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_transferable_vote
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:13pm
  - Steve Todd
    
    Except that the majority-preferential vote (PV), when used to fill many places (as with the Australian House of Representatives) is only marginally better than FPP, in that at least the winning candidate will have attained 50% of the (valid) votes remaining in the election.
    
    In my view, in the unlikely event that New Zealand discards MMP, we should adopt STV in large, multimember electoral areas, as I have previously suggested. Under such a system, we would still have PR, but all MPs would be directly elected by the People, and almost all votes cast would be effective in helping to elect at least one candidate.
    
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    October 19, 2023 9:07pm
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      Get rid of List MPs? Would get my vote!
      
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      October 19, 2023 9:52pm
    - krazykiwi
      
      I’ve also advocated for something like this. A large candidate list, candidates registered in electorates but voters permitted to cast, say, three votes for any candidate with on the national list.
      
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      October 20, 2023 7:17am
      - Steve Todd
        
        Hmm. No, I prefer my STV candidate-list system, krazykiwi, that I briefly described for you two years ago, here: https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2021/10/an_electoral_review.html/comment-page-1#comment-3039768.
        
        The beauty of my system is that voters can rank-order their most-preferred candidates on the LHS of the vertical line, and, if they want, have the blanks filled in by also rank-ordering the parties on the RHS of the vertical line (thereby reducing the number of non-transferable votes).
        
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        October 20, 2023 8:20am
- Steve Todd
  
  No, Sparrow, that is not the case.
  
  Right now, 2,254,441 valid Party Votes have been counted, of which 2,135,058 (94.70%) were given for the six successful parties. A total of 119,383 votes (5.30%) were given for the unsuccessful parties, i.e., were wasted.
  
  The current seat allocation, i.e., National 50, Labour 34, Greens 14, ACT NZ 11, NZ First 8, and TPM 4, is based on the Effective Party Votes, i.e., the 2,135,058 votes given, in total, for those six parties.
  
  These are the percentages for each of the successful parties—
  
  National (45 electorates) .. 878,288 .. 38.96% of all Party Votes (APVs) cast; 41.14% of the Effective Party Votes (EPVs) cast
  
  Labour (17) .. 606,663 .. 26.91% of APVs; 28.41% of EPVs
  
  Greens (3) .. 242,845 .. 10.77% of APVs; 11.37% of EPVs
  
  ACT NZ (2) .. 202,664 .. 8.99% of APVs; 9.49% of EPVs
  
  NZ First (0) .. 145,649 .. 6.46% of APVs; 6.82% of EPVs
  
  Te Pāti Māori (4) .. 58,949 .. 2.61% of APVs; 2.76% of EPVs.
  
  So, if you gave your Party Vote for, say, TOP, your vote (and the other 119,382 wasted Party Votes) was simply set aside. In no way did 39% of it effectively go to National, 27% of it to Labour, etc.
  
  That is an erroneous notion that is based on the misconception that, initially, the seats are allocated to the successful parties based on the APVs, and only later, when all votes are counted, on the EPVs.
  
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  October 19, 2023 8:46pm

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