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November 4, 2023 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 04 November 2023

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General Debate

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Souvlaki

I hope that the incoming Govt has the cojones to deal with the bellicose and thinly veiled threats of violence from the ” MP for Gaza” over the Treaty. Peters has said he wants to formally withdraw NZ from UNDRIP and we are familiar with Seymours intention to hold a referendum. We cannot capitulate to violence!
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2023-greens-co-leader-marama-davidson-dares-national-government-on-treaty/7HUMUUUSEVHCXP77M5RKJEQVNY/
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/pm-green-mp-marama-davidsons-detention-in-israel-quota-less-than-perfect-lookquot/LZW2UQJY2BGQAWHIA3YBJXA7Q4/
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November 4, 2023 8:06am
- Southern Raider
  
  With the MP for Gaza, MP for Tehran and MP for Tijuana is there any left MPs who represent NZ?
  
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  November 4, 2023 8:38am
  - imalwaysright
    
    S.R
    Don’t forget the MPs for ‘Aotearoa’
    
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    November 4, 2023 8:50am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Not in that Party.
    
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    November 4, 2023 9:31am
  - cmm
    
    You forgot their MP for Vietnam they were crowing about yesterday.
    
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    November 4, 2023 10:32am
- bennerg
  
  I hope our nation can now deal to these people who promote their case(s) with a “thugs veto” – issues they cannot debate, or support with logical, rational thought, and backed up by evidence that can be tested.
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:22am
  - Positan
    
    As they say, the emptiest vessels make the most sound.
    
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    November 4, 2023 9:46pm
- ClanMcleod
  
  Souvlaki – it is good that they are exposing themselves as the Marxist thugs and bullies they actually are. Easier to deal with when you can see them clearly.
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:33am
  - imalwaysright
    
    A Parliament that would rather solve everyone else’s problems but ours.
    
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    November 4, 2023 2:17pm
Flossie

Is Marama Davidson in the right party? I can’t recall anything she has said regarding the environment, but heaps on gender and race.
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November 4, 2023 8:07am
- kowtow
  
  The weather is simply the Trojan Horse for the extreme left to hoodwink stupid , silly and gullible voters ( see the Teal types of Oz) into voting themselves off to the gulag .
  
  They’d have very little traction if te media pahti weren’t also fellow travellers of the far left .
  
  NB the role of the media in sowing covid panic and now siding with terror in the ME.
  
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  November 4, 2023 8:58am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  The environment is racist, everything is racist.
  Should be in the Party with the cowboy.
  
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  November 4, 2023 9:40am
  - kowtow
    
    Here was me thinking they wanted to “decolonise” everything .And that fool wearing a very colonial , even genocidal symbol .
    
    They’re not the maori party , they’re cosplaying circus clowns.
    
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    November 4, 2023 10:58am
    - nathie
      
      As in Te Parody Maori?
      
      Perhaps good friends with Te Media Parody?
      
      Bet Billy T. James would reckon so!
      
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      November 4, 2023 11:18am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        I can still hear his giggle!
        
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        November 4, 2023 12:17pm
      - nathie
        
        Steve – it’s KFC for you!
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35Wla9EqUuE
        
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        November 4, 2023 12:33pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        @nathie,
        We went to 3 of his live shows. Would love to do it over again.
        
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        November 4, 2023 2:54pm
- Notsofast
  
  The great trinity
  
  Trans wonderfulness
  Maori wonderfulness
  Islamic wonderfulness.
  
  Stunning.
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:21am
- cmm
  
  The Rod Donald/Jeanette Fitzimmonds Green parts was about the environment.
  
  The Sure Bradford etc wave brought in the watermelons – people who are just self-loathing anti-Westerners using anything they can to tear down the West (fake racism, colonialism, fake environmentalism,…).
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:36am
  - Master Mariner
    
    People who hate themselves always find a cause too hate more.
    As simple as that.
    
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    November 4, 2023 12:48pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    True Greens. Lefties yes, but not commies.
    
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    November 4, 2023 3:07pm
Bridgenag

Thanks to a poster on this site I have enjoyed the posts from….
Robert W Malone USA, eugyppius [Germany], bad cattitude [USA?], Dystopian down under [Perth], Steve Kirsch [USA], Simplicius The Thinker [ EU] plus locals.

Robert W Malone a must to subscribe to.
Their posts offer the chance to get away from the echo chamber of local politics to excellent discussions giving a broader understanding of world politics that affects our lives.
Which posters do you prefer Clan? [my new BFF]
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November 4, 2023 8:09am
- kevn
  
  Bridge… Try the Mid Western Doctor.
  https://www.midwesterndoctor.com/p/why-wont-doctors-innovate-14f?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=748806&post_id=138497839&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=15bbs6&utm_medium=email
  
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  November 4, 2023 8:47am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    kevn – another excellent substack indeed.
    
    Joel Smalley and Meryl Nass are another couple of good ones.
    
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    November 4, 2023 10:57am
    - Bridgenag
      
      Thanks K & C
      
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      November 4, 2023 12:43pm
- ClanMcleod
  
  My favourites in no particular order, and the ones I actually pay money to support are:
  
  UK Column – https://www.ukcolumn.org/
  
  Eugyppius a plague chronicle – https://www.eugyppius.com/
  
  Bad Cattitude – https://boriquagato.substack.com/
  
  Others that I subscribe to are The Daily Skeptic, Zerohedge, The Duran, Trust The Evidence, Dr Tess Lawrie and a few others.
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:42am
- wsk12345
  
  The Free Press (Bari Weiss ex NYT) also has some good stuff you might enjoy.
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:49am
- NothingLeft
  
  Reliably interesting and informative not left-wing podcasts covering a wide range of political and social issues:
  Chris Williamson:
  https://www.youtube.com/@ChrisWillx
  Triggernometry:
  https://www.youtube.com/@triggerpod
  
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  November 4, 2023 11:32am
- Sacha
  
  The trouble is, their emails fill the in-box. I have unsubscribed several.
  Have kept Malone and Midwestern Doctor but still cast an eye over others that you mention.
  
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  November 4, 2023 9:31pm
Bridgenag

Why Daylight Saving Time is Stupid
The twice-annual clock fiddling ritual is a pointless pain in the ass and it should be abolished everywhere

“DST became a reality only in 1916, when Germany and Austria-Hungary imposed the time shift as a wartime fuel-saving measure. So as not to lose any advantage, the United Kingdom imposed DST on its population weeks later, and the United States followed suit upon its late entry into the conflict in 1918. Even in those early days, there was considerable doubt that DST would have any meaningful influence on energy consumption, particularly in heavily regulated wartime economies…..
….Evidence since then suggests that in peacetime it probably causes slight increases in electricity usage, as it involves a trade-off of less energy-intensive lighting for more energy-intensive heating and cooling.”

https://www.eugyppius.com/p/why-daylight-saving-time-is-stupid?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
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November 4, 2023 8:10am
- RoboRob
  
  I would be happy to end the switch but would personally prefer to stay on the current time. I would rather it was dark in the morning and lighter in the evening during autumn/ winter.
  
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  November 4, 2023 9:01am
  - Nigel Kearney
    
    I agree. The simplest solution for those who want their waking hours to include more daylight is to just get up earlier in the morning. But that seems beyond many people.
    
    Second best is to keep the time one hour ahead permanently. Or at least for 20 years until people start staying in bed even later and you need to move it again.
    
    There used to be an objection about kids having to get to school in the dark in winter, but I’m not sure that is still an issue.
    
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    November 4, 2023 11:14am
    - rockape
      
      Most 4 by 4 s have headlights.
      
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      November 4, 2023 12:03pm
    - Sacha
      
      I’m an afternoon person. I used to work shifts, and always avoided the mornings if I could. Getting up earlier is not for me.
      
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      November 4, 2023 9:35pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Even stupider in Wasilla Alaska. June 2017 it was sunset at 11.30pm and sunrise at 4.15am. Thing is it never got dark, just an eerie twilight when you see it first time.
  Host family, “Steve, you going to bed?” “Just looking for someone to have a drink with” “It’s 3.30 in the morning you know”
  
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  November 4, 2023 9:51am
  - Master Mariner
    
    Go there in November Steve.
    Get bed sores //
    
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    November 4, 2023 12:50pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Nov. Just when it is starting to get cold.
      Port call, or do you have time? I recommend the Train. Denali Star to Fairbanks and the Coastal Classic to Seward.
      We are lucky enough to have friends there, two host families. They sort of fight over whose place we are going to stay at.
      We miss them, almost time to go again but the exchange rate is shocking!
      
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      November 4, 2023 3:00pm
- cmm
  
  It maybe makes some sense in summer if people are going to spend that extra even hour outdoors tending their gardens or whatever.
  
  But these days it makes little sense in our 24-hour-a-day societies we live in.
  
  What it does do is cause a whole lot of confusion and hassles setting up international meetings on line.
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:39am
Vinicius

Looking the successful candidates list from the election is revealing in several ways.

For the two main parties National are obviously much better off than Labour. The Nats have MP’s who have been ministers before like Upston and Collins. or have a core bunch of others who have been in Parliament for at least 3 years. They have people like Reti, Mark Mitchell and Nicola Willis who should be able to get up to speed and be competent ministers. Because of the state of country getting up to speed will be challenging though it appears some training from Stephen Joyce, Bill English et al has been provided.

For Labour the picture isn’t anywhere near as rosy. They have very little new talent coming into Parliament because of the wipeout on October 14. They also have a longish list of MP’s now who have been heavily involved in the outgoing government and who carry plenty of political baggage that will be very difficult to get rid of. This includes Ginny Andersen, Kelvin Davis, Hipkins, Little, Tinetti and Verrall. The next Labour PM may not yet be in Parliament. Labour has a crisis of belief and doesn’t know why they lost so badly.

ACT has some MP’s who’ve been in Parliament for 3+ years and have Brooke van Velden who has the potential to be a senior cabinet minister in the future. NZ First have Peters and Jones as former cabinet ministers. I’m not very familiar with the rest of their new MP’s so they’re an unknown quantity.

The Green’s and Te Pati Maori are going to be on the opposition benches most likely promoting left wing woke policies that the mainstream electorate has already rejected.

https://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2023/successful-candidates.html
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November 4, 2023 8:11am
- Chuck Bird
  
  Casey Costello is #3.
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:38am
- pdm
  
  The one quality person NZFirst bring in is Casey Costello.
  
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  November 4, 2023 11:13am
  - RightFirstTime
    
    If by saying “quality person” you mean someone who has at least a modicum of intelligence and integrity then why the hell is Casey Costello part of NZ First?
    
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    November 4, 2023 12:52pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Paul Goldsmith and Brownlie have also been ministers
  
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  November 4, 2023 1:28pm
KH

The people of Gaza are real. The deaths are personal.
https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/family-members-among-gaza-dead
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November 4, 2023 8:25am
- kowtow
  
  That’s essentially an ODT ad for the pro hamas , pro Iran genocidal war against Jewry .
  
  Not one mention of the outrages of Oct 7 .
  
  Similarly all the figures of alleged Gazan casualties cited will be sourced from hamas .We place out trust in an organisation that deliberately targets babies , children and women . Young folk at music festivals !
  
  Remember the first casualty of war is the truth.
  
  It’s wonderful that we have the freedom to march and express our opinions here in still democratic NZ , a right that tyhe people of Iran , gaza and most of the ME don’t have .
  
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  November 4, 2023 8:52am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    No it isn’t. It’s a story that may or may not be accurate but at no point does it advocate for Hamas.
    No different to the stories of atrocities committed against innocent Jews during the Hamas attacks. They are all tragic stories.
    
    The first casualty of war IS truth, but it applies to all in the conflict.
    
    As for protest being denied in the countries you list, apparently not even Jews in Israel are allowed to protest.
    
    https://themessenger.com/news/orthodox-jews-assaulted-by-israeli-police-officers-in-jerusalem
    
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    November 4, 2023 11:12am
    - kowtow
      
      yes it is , it’s an ad , the proof being this footnote.
      
      ‘- A march in support of a ceasefire will leave from the Museum Reserve at 2pm today.’
      
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      November 4, 2023 12:07pm
- Dudley Quaffquaff
  
  Indeed. What a shame it is that their own government doesn’t think so
  
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  November 4, 2023 8:58am
- Inandout
  
  KH, deaths are personal, that photo has not been verified as genuine yet.
  
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  November 4, 2023 8:59am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    Inandout – that’s a pretty crass comment.
    
    You don’t think they needed to stage a photo of a dead kid in Gaza do you? Pretty sure there are plenty of dead bodies to choose from on both sides.
    
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    November 4, 2023 11:14am
    - ISeeRed
      
      Every Palestinian death is on Hamas.
      
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      November 4, 2023 3:25pm
- rouppe
  
  As were the deaths of Israelis on October 7.
  
  Start with that.
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:18am
- Nukuleka
  
  And the people of Israelis are not real? What a vapid post.
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:30am
- cmm
  
  To some extent you are correct. But values wrt death and life are quite different in different cultures.
  
  If Hamas cared about such things then they would not commit the war crimes of building their assets in hospitals, schools and apartment buildings.
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:43am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    Like the Viet Cong shouldn’t have operated in that way, or the French Resistance in WW2, or the IRA in N Ireland, who all used the civilian populations to hide both themselves and their weapons.
    
    I doubt the majority of the civilians have a lot of choice in this, do you?
    
    It’s a horrific situation for all involved. End of story.
    
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    November 4, 2023 11:18am
    - kowtow
      
      I wouldn’t equate the IRA or VC with the Fr resistance.Totally different.
      
      You’ll find that terrorist organisations like the former two will actually wage terror on their own communities in the first instance , in order to create obediance through fear and violence , prior to any so called , self described “liberation” efforts .
      
      No doubt the Hamas terrorists will have done the same thing to any opponents in gaza . In fact they expelled the PLO terrorists in order to install their own terror regime.
      
      A microcosm of which is the recent footage from gaza of the woman screaming about the “hamas dogs” who ‘ve brought such destruction being silenced by some burly men.
      
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      November 4, 2023 12:03pm
      - Master Mariner
        
        “. In fact they expelled the PLO terrorists in order to install their own terror regime.”.
        Much the same as Jordan and Lebanon prior.
        
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        November 4, 2023 12:57pm
      - Jake Dee
        
        “I wouldn’t equate the IRA or VC with the Fr resistance. Totally different.
        You’ll find that terrorist organisations like the former two will actually wage terror on their own communities in the first instance…’
        
        This sort of stuff is almost unbelievably naive. It’s the official version that was written by the winners post-45 that no one was too eager to check for accuracy while those victors were in political power and the Cold War was on.
        The French killed the French of the opposite factions in large numbers and with great cruelty. Each side had assassin, torturers, agents, counter agents, double agents, spies and traitors and “kill the traitor before the enemy” has always be a solid rule.
        The Marquis killed the Milice and the Milice killed the Marquis without whatever weapons and tactics they had.
        If you had of talked to a member of the Milice in 1944 they probably would have said something like “I’m not fighting for the Germans against the French. I AM French and I love my people. I’m fighting to save France from the Bolsheviks with German support.”
        But on the other hand, if you had of talked to a member of the Marquis they would probably have said something like “I not fighting for the British against the French. I AM French and I love my people. I’m fighting to save France from the Fascists with British support.
        The history is all there and can now be read since all the principals are dead and the archives have (mostly) been opened.
        I was surprised to learn of how many French and Scandanavian SS soldiers fought right to the end outside the Reich Chancellery in Berlin May 1945. They knew what awaited them and the hands of their countrymen if they were capture alive.
        I was also surprised to learn how many Ukrainian SS veterans got secretly transferred to the West via London. The current war is shaking some very interesting old skeletons out of the closet. But in retrospect maybe I shouldn’t have been all that surprised. Werner von Braun was pretty well known. he wasn’t just a Nazi but an SS Major. But he got a man on the moon and A-bombs over Moscow so we all agreed to let that slide.
        Terrorism is a military tactic, and the crime of membership of a terrorist organization is a political tactic, when the politics change the crime disappears.
        The V.C. is a case in point. Now that Washington is pursuing negotiations with Hanoi do you think that they will demand that the old soldiers get extradited to an international tribunal on charges of war crimes or membership in a terrorist organization, just like the old concentration camp guards are?
        Hardly.
        Washington is determined to stop the Communist Party (China) so therefore they must make a deal with The Communist Party (Vietnam) It’s the only way to defeat Communism!
        Oceanian is at war with Eastasia and has always been at war with Eastasia.
        
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        November 4, 2023 4:06pm
  - kowtow
    
    Or use the people of Gaza as cannon fodder for the mad mullahs in Tehran .
    
    I note our media report what’s happening with an almost total focus on Israeli actions in Gaza with little or no mention of the thosands of rocket attacks from there , the missiles from Houthi Yemen( Tehran proxy) , the terror attacks again in the West Bank or the Hezbollah ( again Tehran proxies) from Lebanon .
    
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    November 4, 2023 11:22am
    - NothingLeft
      
      Media are left wing and always identify with underdogs/losers like themselves as they feel their only chance of elevation in a society where they fail to measure up to egalitarian competition is revolution.
      
      What they clearly don’t understand is that revolutions are bad for everyone except arguably the top 0.1% of sociopaths and psychopaths that make up the new ruling elite. There are countless examples to prove this point.
      
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      November 4, 2023 11:40am
- bennerg
  
  KH, there is currently no alternative to war. It has been part of human existence from time immemorial.
  
  Despite the best efforts in the creation of the League of Nations through to the current United Nations, our species has been unable to create a mechanism to preacefully deal with disputes over territory, resources, and ideology.
  
  There is also the factor that war makes money for some, and advantage for others, and promoting conflict is more often than not a planned and effectively managed ploy to deliver their ends.
  
  Sadly in the middle are people. More often than not people just like us wanting a family, healthy children with jobs and careers …. ie a happy life.
  
  I say the people of Israel are likewise real, and favouring one side will not lead to any resolution.
  
  The then world order created the state of Israel in 1948, to address historical issues. But since then Israel has had to deal with incursions and continual attempts to undermine it’s legitimacy, in non diplomatic ways. ie violence. Continual rocket bombardment, and now a massive coordinated attack with the taking of hostages.
  
  So KH, think of the children, and young people, and the families … of those Israelis affected over many decades. Did you think of them, and speak out?
  
  So who is to blame? If the people living in Gaza had tried peacefully to better their cause, I would be right behind them. But they chose violence. They elected leaders who promote violence. From Arafat (PLO) to Hamas. These leaders took the money sent for aid. It was not spent on the people. It is now so obvious aid money was spent on a war machine, the metro tunnels, and lifestyles for their leaders.
  
  I have always wondered why the other Arab nations did not reach out to the People of Gaza. I now know.
  
  If the UN and the other Arab nations had done the right thing and stepped in and set up a peace based government in Gaza – preventing the rocket and terror attacks on Israel, there would be a functionaing State that the rest of the world could recognise. And one that would give the people of Gaza a safe and happy life.
  
  Until the rest of the world takes a hand here – acknowledges that Hamas and it’s ilk need to be removed from power, and give the land back to the people of Gaza, to live and work in peace, then it will be up to Israel to defend itself. And it’s only option they have is war. And in war innocent people die. Especially when the cowardly Hamas use the people of Gaza as human shields, building their war machine inside and under schools and hospitals.
  
  Footnote:
  I suspect the rest of the world does not really care that much about the people of Gaza, and would prefer to leave Israel to go in and sort out Hamas. It’s a job they do not want to do.
  
  Iran and other factions will try and make as much of the conflict as they can, but do not want to risk a couple of nukes delivered by Israel in their people.
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:48am
  - rouppe
    
    Until the rest of the world takes a hand here – acknowledges that Hamas and it’s ilk need to be removed from power, and give the land back to the people of Gaza, to live and work in peace,
    
    Unfortunately that was tried in both Iraq and Afghanistan. And failed completely.
    
    No third party, especially a western democratic third party, can deliver a peaceful Gaza
    
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    November 4, 2023 10:55am
    - kowtow
      
      Why are those countries so resistant to domestic democracy .
      
      Their govt ‘s insist on the right to vote at the UN , but for their citizens , well not so much .
      
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      November 4, 2023 11:24am
    - bennerg
      
      Rouppe, so the default is the war we now see.
      
      We cannot say “poor Gazans”, and “what about the children”, while the rest of the world is unable to effectively intervene.
      
      Israel has the right to defend their own homes and families.
      
      If anyone is concerned about the “children of Gaza”, let them first request Hamas stop their attacks, and renounce violence.
      
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      November 4, 2023 11:30am
      - rouppe
        
        It needs to start with Gazans either throwing Hamas out or providing intel for someone else to kill Hamas.
        
        If the west tries to install a “suitable” governorship, it will fail, as it failed in those other places.
        
        The rest of the world can support regime change in Gaza, but they can’t effect it.
        
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        November 4, 2023 5:16pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    The only fix to the Gaza problem is to dissolve it. Resettle them all far from Israel, and preferably in small isolated groups, so they lose the focus for their pointless anger and get on with more productive happy lives integrating into less toxic cultures.
    
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    November 4, 2023 11:48am
    - kowtow
      
      make no mistake .
      
      this current outbreak of madness is way bigger than israel or gaza.
      
      this comes from the Mullahs in Tehran who want a world dominated by their fanaticism.
      
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      November 4, 2023 12:32pm
  - Jake Dee
    
    “If the people living in Gaza had tried peacefully to better their cause, I would be right behind them.”
    
    So, you will support a society on the condition that it is pacificist an unarmed. Delusions and rather pitiful delusions at that. No pacific society will survive. New Zealanders may waffle about that point but in the end, we would never accept such a condition for ourselves. Why demand it from others?
    
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    November 4, 2023 5:23pm
KH

Not sure we need a ‘treaty’ referendum. The proposal as laid out below are obviously just, and already supported by most people.
The new government should just get on and put it into law.

……….Would you support or oppose a Treaty Principles Act that defined the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi as follows:

1 The New Zealand Government has the right to govern New Zealand.

2 The New Zealand Government will protect all New Zealanders’ authority over their land and other property.

3 All New Zealanders are equal under the law, with the same rights and duties
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November 4, 2023 8:34am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Wrong. The Treaty now is the rogue James Freeman version. It includes “Forestries and Fisheries” The original in Maori and the Littlewood Draft did not have them included. That is where the corruption started – the never ending Gravy Train. See pages 13/14 of the Stop Co-Governance booklet.
  Don’t have one? Go here: http://www.stopcogovernance.kiwi there is an online version.
  The Principles are also wrong.
  1) “The chiefs of the confederation of united tribes, and the other chiefs who have not joined the confederation, cede to the Queen of England forever the entire sovereignty of their country.”
  
  2) “The Queen of England confirms and guarantees to the chiefs and the tribes and to all the people of New Zealand, the possession of their lands, dwellings and all their property. But the chiefs of the Confederation of the United Tribes and the other chiefs grant to the Queen, the exclusive rights of purchasing such lands as the proprietors thereof may be disposed to sell at such prices as may be agreed upon them between them and the person appointed by the Queen to purchase from them.”
  
  3) “In return for the cession of their sovereignty to the Queen, the people of New Zealand shall be protected by the Queen of England and the rights and privileges of British subjects will be granted to them.”
  
  The plain meaning of the Treaty is straightforward.
  Pages7 and 8 from the Stop Co-Governance booklet.
  
  Sorry KH, but your sources are straight from the 1975 Treaty of Waitangi rubbish. Sad that modern Maori are brainwashed by this.
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:27am
  - KH
    
    Steve. I think you got my view back to front. ??. I am all in favour of deleting the ‘gravy train’.
    
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    November 4, 2023 11:15am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      No back to front. Your Principles wording is wrong.
      Compare them one by one.
      If you are in favour of deleting the Gravy Train, then NZ must go back to before “Forestries and Fisheries” were put into the Treaty by James Freeman C/- Sir Hugh Kawharu and then further messed with by Geoffrey Palmer.
      NZ has been living with these lies for 45 years.
      There are other things wrong in the post 1975 version such as removing the words New Zealanders, and substituting it with Maori.
      Booklet:
      
      https://issuu.com/esisite/docs/3481_jb_-_go-governance_-_a5_booklet_-_online
      
      Treaty timeline:
      Part 1.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSqvlRLU3C8
      Part 2 is more informative.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVgY03s6Tqc
      
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      November 4, 2023 11:59am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        KH, I may have been a bit hard on you. Please read those Articles again. Many get Articles and Priciples mixed up, or they think they are one and the same. They are not.
        
        Here are the Treaty Principles:
        
        https://www.stopcogovernance.kiwi/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Treaty-Principles.pdf
        
        PDF makes things a bit difficult to copy and paste.
        Note what it says. “The Labour Government created it’s own set of Treaty Principles.”
        by none other than Justice Minister Geoffrey Palmer.
        There were 27 more Principles that followed. Never ending shit by Labour!
        
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        November 4, 2023 3:41pm
- Wayne Mapp
  
  A Treaty referendum that didn’t mention Māori. Good luck with that.
  More importantly this sort thing is in the realm of constitutional law. It therefore has to endure multiple changes of government to be of any value.
  I can see merit in having a Commission of Inquiry into what the principles of the treaty should be , which could then lead to legislative definition. However such an Inquiry would have to canvass the full range of opinion on this if it is to be of any value at at all. Democracy is not just majority rule, it is also about minority rights
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:39am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    I see that in 2005, Winston Peters sponsored a Bill in Parliament – “The Principles of Waitangi Deletion Bill”. It was defeated. I wonder if still holds those views?
    
    https://www.parliament.nz/mi/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/47HansS_20050608_00001209/peters-winston-principles-of-the-treaty-of-waitangi-deletion/
    
    EDIT – Prior to the election, Winston was interviewed on Australia’s Nine Network. This whole issue came up – he told the journalist – “There are no principles of the Treaty”. I posted a link to GD at the time. Sorry I can’t now locate it.
    
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    November 4, 2023 10:54am
  - bennerg
    
    Wayne, where did “principles of the treaty” come from?
    
    I understand that was an abstract concept introduced by Geoffrey Palmer as a way to “extend” advantage in the ongoing treaty negotiations.
    
    It was a cunning and devious tool to extend the “gravy train”. As Blackadder said:
    
    “I’ve got a plan so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel.”
    
    It is time to focus on the future, and what is needed to move ahead. Trying to wring out advantage for a few elite (which in reality is what is happening) by reinterpreting the past will get us nowhere.
    
    We live in a democracy, in a world so very different from 1840, where the agreement between the British Gvernment and the Maori Tribes dealt to settling conflicts then, in that context.
    
    The context has now changed, and these conflicts simply do not exist anymore, and have not for more than a century and a half.
    
    New conflicts are being reimagined and created to give advantage to certain individuals. And these are not of one race or another, they are those who get the power from the redistribution of money that we as taxpayers provide from todays world. Quite frankly we are being robbed daily, and the realisation is slowly dawning on the people of New Zealand.
    
    To be clear, I love our Maori culture, and spend a lovely day yesterday immersed in a local blessing event. What I do not love is “the elite” using that as a cause célèbre to further their own enrichment.
    
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    November 4, 2023 11:05am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Bennerg,
      
      They use the phrase ‘principles of the treaty’ because they are too scared to actually read the thing and enforce its implementation .
      
      Its much easier to imagine various mystical meanings of the words, that way there is no confrontation.
      
      We are being punished for our collective cowardice and ignorance .
      
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      November 4, 2023 2:39pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        A comment that makes sense. The rest here are running in circles and don’t know what they are talking about.
        I have followed this since Julian Batchelor first posted the http://www.stopcogovernance.kiwi
        website.
        Only went to one meeting – Orewa. What a bloody shambles. The Police just stood there, did nothing. Ignorant bastards (Police and protesters)
        
        7 1
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        November 4, 2023 3:24pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      “what is needed to move ahead”
      So the Gravy Train goes on forever?
      Nope, it needs exposing for the fraud that it is. Maybe someone could ask Geoffrey Palmer why he messed with it so much and without a conclusion?
      
      8 1
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      November 4, 2023 3:19pm
  - KH
    
    Wayne. The referendum does not mention any ethnic group. You might not have noticed.
    It does say “New Zealanders” – very deliberately I think – that’s the whole point.
    And it’s a great point.
    
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    November 4, 2023 11:58am
  - Taieri
    
    I can see merit in having a Commission of Inquiry into what the principles of the treaty should be
    ————-
    
    In order to establish what the principles of the treaty SHOULD BE a new treaty needs to be entered into.
    The principles of the existing treaty were summed up by Hobson thus:
    
    He Iwi Ko Tahi Tatou – Now We Are One People
    
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    November 4, 2023 12:10pm
    - Cantabrian
      
      Much more fundamental – why do we need a treaty? Are we still going to be hung up on it in another hundred years?
      There is no necessity for any debate about principles of there is no treaty – and if there is no treaty we must surely be one people.
      
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      November 4, 2023 1:02pm
      - kowtow
        
        Yep .
        We should be focussing on the Crown’s charter and letters patent that established the colony , and by extension democracy and its principles .
        
        A deliberate focus on only one aspect of history ,while being willfully blind of all else is dishonest .
        
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        November 4, 2023 3:26pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        You like giving hard earned money away to Maori Elite? I don’t.
        There is a Coup happening because of the never-ending Gravy Train.
        Keep paying, it is OK to pay for nothing!
        
        4 1
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        November 4, 2023 4:21pm
  - rangitoto
    
    There are no principles mentioned in the treaty.
    
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    November 4, 2023 12:44pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      There are 3 “Articles” and that is where some get mixed up.
      See above at my 3.41 comment.
      
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      November 4, 2023 3:47pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Not following you at all Wayne. Was the reply to me or KH?
    
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    November 4, 2023 3:14pm
    - Wayne Mapp
      
      It was a reply to KH, who set out his principles without even mentioning Māori.
      Also I was making the broader point that constitutional provisions need to reflect a broad consensus, including the views of minorities. Hence my reason why a Commission that looked at the issues from all perspectives could be useful thing to do.
      One of the problems of section 9 of the SOE Act, which refers to “principles of the treaty” is that the principles are not legislatively defined. That job has been left to the courts.
      Any reasonable definition of the principles could hardly ignore the last 35 years of judicial interpretation.
      
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      November 4, 2023 5:11pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        45 years
        
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        November 4, 2023 7:29pm
- David Garrett
  
  KH: that is pretty much exactly what Seymour is suggesting. He is proposing to do it much like the Assisted Dying legislation: draft the legislation, get it through the House, but make it coming into force conditional upon a referendum.
  
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  November 4, 2023 11:41am
  - KH
    
    Yes. Thank you David
    I mostly keep posting those points here because they are not often seen despite all the fuss about them.
    
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    November 4, 2023 12:03pm
BananaLlama

Can’t buy throwaway vapes from the bottle store because Labour is worried they might sell them to children …
… can buy Alcohol and Tobacco but not a vape.
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November 4, 2023 8:35am
- kowtow
  
  No to vapes , death to the unborn.
  
  Ardern’s and labour /left values are extraordinarily skewed.
  
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  November 4, 2023 8:54am
- Opie
  
  Not taxed high enough yet
  
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  November 4, 2023 9:12am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Yep, Tax the fuck out of them – like petrol.
    
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    November 4, 2023 10:29am
  - miltonF
    
    Lol exactly. For a long time I’ve been saying they’ll use the “think of the children” approach to justify taxing vaping products.
    
    Expect to see a ton of news articles on this subject while they train the public to accept these new taxes. Like good little sheeples.
    
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    November 4, 2023 5:32pm
Southern Raider

Anyone know how it’s legal to protest while having your face hidden in the style of a Jihadi?

If Brian Tamaki marched through main cities with his fellow travellers in balaclavas the left would be straight of to the authorities about intimidation

But when the left does it around the world it’s deemed okay
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November 4, 2023 8:36am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Antifa cowards.
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:30am
Suze Wainwright

So is the latest media photo showing Marama on a bicycle proof that she and her Party are getting some feedback questioning whether she’s actually got any environmental credentials…?
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November 4, 2023 8:44am
kowtow

*WHEN A FLY FALLS INTO A CUP OF COFFEE . . .*
( from Telegram , the current war explained)

“*The Italian –* throws the cup, breaks it, and walks away in a fit of rage.

*The German –* carefully washes the cup, sterilizes it and makes a new cup of coffee.

*The Frenchman –* takes out the fly, and drinks the coffee.

*The Chinese –* eats the fly and throws away the coffee.

*The Russian –* Drinks the coffee with the fly, since it was extra with no charge.

*The Israeli –* sells the coffee to the Frenchman, sells the fly to the Chinese, sells the cup to the Italian, drinks a cup of tea, and uses the extra money to invent a device that prevents flies from falling into coffee.

*The Palestinian –* blames the Israeli for the fly falling into his coffee, protests the act of aggression to the UN, takes a loan from the European Union to buy a new cup of coffee, uses the money to purchase explosives and then blows up the coffee house where the Italian, the Frenchman, the Chinese, the German and the Russian are all trying to explain to the Israeli that he should give away his cup of coffee to the Palestinian so there will be peace.”
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November 4, 2023 8:47am
NeverMindTheBollocks

Confirmation of your hard-earned down the drain.

No word on the environmental impact of disposal.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/133229212/quarter-of-a-billion-dollars-in-expired-covid19-equipment-to-be-dumped-by–government
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November 4, 2023 8:48am
- ClanMcleod
  
  Is that why they extended the ‘provisional approval’ for this dangerous experiment? Because they finished up with millions of doses that most sane people don’t want?
  
  https://www.immune.org.nz/news/provisional-approval-for-pfizer-vaccine-extended
  
  The Tamiflu scam on steroids.
  
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  November 4, 2023 11:34am
NeverMindTheBollocks

Ever heard of white hydrogen? No, me neither.

Apparently it’s going to to be a green energy panacea.

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/France-Uncovers-Massive-White-Hydrogen-Deposit.html
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November 4, 2023 8:52am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  There’s a veritable spectrum of names for this colourless/invisible gas…
  
  https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/energy-explained/hydrogen-colour-spectrum#:~:text=Blue%20hydrogen%20is%20produced%20mainly,produced%20as%20a%20by%2Dproduct.
  
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  November 4, 2023 11:14am
- kowtow
  
  I can see the university , neo marxist , decolonise crowd havijg a problem with it ……..
  
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  November 4, 2023 11:27am
KH

I can’t imagine Davidson would vote ‘Yes’ for this referendum. And even less idea how she would justify failure to do so.

You have to read what is actually proposed. Brilliantly simple.
……….Would you support or oppose a Treaty Principles Act that defined the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi as follows:

1 The New Zealand Government has the right to govern New Zealand.

2 The New Zealand Government will protect all New Zealanders’ authority over their land and other property.

3 All New Zealanders are equal under the law, with the same rights and duties.
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November 4, 2023 9:05am
- Jake Dee
  
  “The New Zealand Government has the right to govern New Zealand”
  
  This is either a meaningless tautology (the King is The King, A=A) or it’s a dangerous fish hook clause which allows what ever entity calls itself The New Zealand government to rule as if by divine right.
  
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  November 4, 2023 5:33pm
imalwaysright

https://youtu.be/QLmg7qosl4Q

A good exposé of a week in the life of Trudeau .
Many parallels to the ex NZ PM’s regime.
The part about ghost contractors and fake invoices is interesting .
It couldn’t happen here though. Open and transparent!
(And don’t forget, Ardern told us she never lies)
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November 4, 2023 9:07am
Maggy Wassilieff

Has our decolonised, identity-rich future been put on hold?

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/doug-stokes-the-dangers-of-decolonisation
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November 4, 2023 9:23am
- rouppe
  
  As the extent of the slaughter across southern Israel was still emerging, journalist Najma Sharif said it represented ‘decolonisation’ in action – the most spectacular attempt yet to ‘free’ the Palestinian people from the effects of ‘colonisation’. ‘What did y’all think decolonisation meant?’, Sharif tweeted. ‘Vibes? Papers? Essays? Losers.’
  
  At last. The truth being exposed. Put that to Marama Davidson next time she mentions it
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:44am
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    What makes you think that Marama doesn’t have this in mind for those of us on the wrong side of the genetic bar?
    
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    November 4, 2023 4:23pm
    - rouppe
      
      I’m not saying she doesn’t. But she’s never been called on to “rule out” this interpretation of it.
      
      The media love the rule out game. Use it on her
      
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      November 4, 2023 5:18pm
- nathie
  
  Thanks for the link – it’s sickening and with the truth fully revealed by the zealots it’s worse that I thought (in terms of how it is portrayed in NZ in government and academia).
  
  Can see parallels with the Khmer Rouge and Mao’s Cultural Revolution leading to the genocide of millions of people and their historical societal norms. Younger generations naively denouncing older generations etc.
  
  And this is what the Greens, Te Pāti Māori and even Labour (foolishly going along with it – as per the recent Chris Trotter piece) are promoting in terms of a softer, supposedly somewhat benign side of it.
  
  Trouble is once the lid is lifted how does one contain the extremists?
  
  (Imagine if the Right were promoting a supposedly somewhat benign version of Nazi fascism – it would deservedly be called out and stamped out)!
  
  It has to stop.
  
  Call it sedition?
  
  Whatever, it has to stop being promoted by Government/public servants, academia, academics and activist groups (consulting govt) and the arts etc.
  
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  November 4, 2023 11:09am
- Tom Hunter
  
  I covered that on No Minister a couple of weeks ago, This is what de-colonisation means, but it was these two quotes I found that reinforce Najma Sharif’s cold, sneering dismissal:
  
  “These festival goers are not innocent civilians, they are settlers,” she says. “So they deserved it?” she was asked. “Yes, every settler.
  
  It will apply to NZ as well, hence the support by the likes of Maram Davidson. As a writer for Quilette magazine put it about this supposedly “academic” theory:
  
  Fancy-sounding academic jargon is not a curious intellectual exercise. Words make worlds.
  …
  Real decolonization is a physical process. It is about removing bodies from a place.
  
  And Davidson, the rest of the Green Party, Te Pati Maori, and the likes of John Minto don’t much care whether the bodies are removed dead or alive.
  
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  November 4, 2023 11:30am
  - thirteenstars
    
    The greatest guilt of today is that of people who accept collectivism by moral default; the people who seek protection from the necessity of taking a stand, by refusing to admit to themselves the nature of that which they are accepting; the people who support plans specifically designed to achieve serfdom, but hide behind the empty assertion that they are lovers of freedom, with no concrete meaning attached to the word; the people who believe that the content of ideas need not be examined, that principles need not be defined, and that facts can be eliminated by keeping one’s eyes shut. They expect, when they find themselves in a world of bloody ruins and concentration camps, to escape moral responsibility by wailing: “But I didn’t mean this!”
    
    –Ayn Rand
    
    Well, Citizens, *they* mean it. They took ideas seriously and instilled those ideas in others, in your children and in your grandchildren. That’s why so many useful idiots march in the streets in support of terror.
    
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    November 4, 2023 12:10pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

I am getting the database error thing. Taken ages to log in, and ages to post a comment.
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November 4, 2023 9:24am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Edit function is also missing.
  I am sure Mods know. It is just annoying.
  
  Edit edit. Edit is working now.
  
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  November 4, 2023 9:28am
- peterwn
  
  It is a ‘host’ issue, there is nothing DPF or the moderators can do about it in the short term. The database is at the heart of WordPress, if the rest of WordPress cannot continually connect with the database no pages will be displayed and an error message will be displayed instead. The database may well be on a quite separate computer from the rest of WordPress. The longer term solution is using a more resilient host, but then this would be more expensive. A blog owner has to balance reliability/resilience against cost and what the blog owner is prepared to pay is dependent on advertising revenue. Alternatively if the blog owner is on an ego trip or has other reasons for running a blog, then the owner may be prepared to pay to run a blog out of his own pocket. Even in that case unless the owner is seriously rich the owner may have to accept less than desirable host resilience.
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:41am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    I just make it known that things are not working. Hopefully the Mods pick it up and inform DPF, who can then let the Host know that they are not performing.
    It is not a complaint, it is just letting people know so maybe something needs fixing.
    
    9 1
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    November 4, 2023 11:19am
  - bennerg
    
    As a hoster of WordPress and other websites, there are many reasons for these errors.
    
    The most common are attempts to compromise the servers, and that can make the site slow, or even display errors such as those seen. We see these attacks in batches, are highly coordinated, and to be honest a real pain in the a**e.
    
    But it is a part of the territory, and you deal with it best as you can. Just like setting up a shop, and having your shop front attacked.
    
    There are solutions, however can be very expensive.
    
    I appreciate the service provided here, and support DLF’s Patreon account. If more did then the service could possibly be improved.
    
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    November 4, 2023 11:24am
    - Ghost
      
      It ins interesting that the blog was running without issue until the results were released yesterday. I have wondered if it is more of an attack
      
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      November 4, 2023 11:31am
      - peterwn
        
        There would have been an upsurge in blog traffic which would have overloaded the servers for short periods.
        
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        November 4, 2023 12:37pm
    - rangitoto
      
      Use a WAF front end like Imperva or Cloudflare and only allow the WAF provider IP ranges to connect to the website.
      
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      November 4, 2023 1:08pm
- [email protected]
  
  Also get the database error when using the Brave browser which prevents pop-up ads from showing. Much better and faster when using the Chrome browser but then see lots of ads.
  
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  November 4, 2023 3:48pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    What ads?
    
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    November 4, 2023 4:54pm
Ghost

Damn

More than a quarter of a billion dollars-worth of expired Covid-19 tests and personal protective equipment (PPE) stockpiled during the pandemic is set to be dumped by the government.

Article
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November 4, 2023 10:07am
- rouppe
  
  Didn’t have it when it was nominally “needed”, and then over ordered when the emergency was over.
  
  Typical
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:45am
- cmm
  
  Remember we bought a whole lot of stuff off the Spain so it wouldn’t expire in their hands.
  
  A Comrade has to help fellow commies out!
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:47am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  How many new nurses & doctors could you pay with $286.8 Million?
  
  How many hospital wards could you modernise with
  $286.8 Million?
  
  etc, etc
  
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  November 4, 2023 11:19am
  - Ghost
    
    Yeah, and this isn’t all
    
    More than 2.3 million doses of funded vaccine expired without making it into arms last year. That’s compared to just 30 wasted vaccine doses in 2017, and 865 in 2018, data released by Health Minister Dr Ayesha Verrall shows.
    
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    November 4, 2023 11:24am
  - rockape
    
    They could start by paying nurses the new rate agreed and the backpay amounting to 1000s of dollars. Tens of thousands in many cases.
    
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    November 4, 2023 12:15pm
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      Pay them in time-expired vaxxes & kit? Not sure the unions would go for that.
      
      4 0
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      November 4, 2023 5:21pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  I don’t understand how paper masks and plastic gown can expire.
  RAT tests sure.
  
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  November 4, 2023 11:24am
- ClanMcleod
  
  How many jabs have they had to dump as they expire, and how many have they ordered and paid for that are still to be delivered?
  
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  November 4, 2023 11:37am
  - mawm
    
    Damn, the Pfizer salesmen would run a good secondhand car dealership!
    
    12 1
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    November 4, 2023 12:25pm
- ClanMcleod
  
  Germany suffering under the same colossal ineptitude/malfeasance.
  
  Federal Health Minister Karl Lauterbach has again called on people to get a booster vaccination. “Despite the pandemic and awareness campaigns, the importance of the Covid booster is apparently greatly underestimated,” he tells Spiegel. “So far, unfortunately, only a fraction of those for whom it is recommended have had a booster vaccination.” He calls on all at-risk groups and older people to catch up and ideally combine it with a flu vaccination.
  
  According to the vaccine uptake statistics of the Robert Koch Institute, only about 2.5 million people have received three or more boosters. This means that only a fraction of those over 60 are likely to have sufficient protection against Covid …
  
  They let Lauterbach flap his gums a little more about population immunity, Long Covid, secondary infections and how the vaccines can make all this better because reasons, before sticking the knife in him:
  
  https://www.eugyppius.com/p/as-the-german-health-ministry-drowns
  
  A day or so ago, NZ quietly extended the provisional approval for this disastrous experiment for 12 years.
  
  https://www.immune.org.nz/news/provisional-approval-for-pfizer-vaccine-extended
  
  Is this part of the reason why?
  
  Lauterbach urgently needs to boost vaccine uptake. The pharmaceutical contracts concluded under his predecessor Jens Spahn have secured much larger quantities of vaccine than are currently being used. Between September and November, about 14.1 million vaccine doses of monovalent vaccine targeted at XBB 1.5. will be delivered. An additional 10.6 million vaccine doses of Novavax XBB 1.5. vaccines will also become available, as soon as they are approved by the European Commission.
  
  https://www.eugyppius.com/p/as-the-german-health-ministry-drowns
  
  No doubt NZ has the same problem. As someone else said, how much better use would this money have been put to if it had been spent on the health system instead of this disastrous experiment?
  
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  November 4, 2023 11:49am
  - mtamati
    
    Clan….That’s from last year…”Medsafe has now renewed the provisional approval for the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine for 2 years, until 3 November 2023. Provisional Consent renewal is routine and has been applied previously to other medicines.”
    
    I haven’t been able to find what the current status is with the p.a. expiring yesterday.
    
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    November 4, 2023 1:18pm
  - Master Mariner
    
    At sea and on phone,
    However my understanding EU has spent 10 billion for 10 years on a contract with Pfeizer for an unknown virius in advance.
    ??
    In which case they have too keep promoting existing efficiency of this vacine ?
    
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    November 4, 2023 1:21pm
- Pineapple Lumps
  
  When do we stop calling it a pandemic and stop giving legitimacy to the psychological conditioning we have been subjected to? I would encourage you all to do so from today if you haven’t already.
  
  The virus most likely came from a lab focussed on enhancing/weaponising viruses. It may or may not have been deliberately released.
  
  The virus impacts were overstated drastically using inaccurate and erroneous testing methodologies. The virus impacts were overstated by previously unheard of biased definitions eg any person dying with the virus was classified as dying from the virus.
  
  The virus is from the same family as the common cold.
  
  The overall deadliness of the virus is equivalent to other common endemic viruses eg the flu. The average age of death from the virus was 1-2 years above the average age of death.
  
  The greatest impacts of the virus have been economic and political. With the general population buying into the mass hysteria fuelled by governments, media and nefarious self-serving global organisations the loss of freedoms and rights and economic destruction are the greatest casualties of the virus.
  
  We should call it the Great Scamdemic, the grand Pfizer delusion, but we must stop calling it a Pandemic. Equally we should not call a novel mRNA treatment a vaccine. Only when the correct thoughts and words become embedded in the mass psyche do we have any hope of not being led down the same garden path in the future. Only by speaking this truth relentlessly will we have any hope of releasing the mask wearers and Branch Covidian cultists from their mental prison.
  
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  November 4, 2023 12:48pm
  - krazykiwi
    
    Agreed.
    
    It wasn’t a pandemic.
    
    It was a failed bioweapon followed by vested interests clambering over each other in order to whack the shit out of the money & power piñata that had presented itself.
    
    8 0
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    November 4, 2023 5:45pm
- MCōs
  
  Medical waste is not confined to expired products
  The amount of equipment that is used once and thrown out is an eye opener
  
  8 1
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  November 4, 2023 1:09pm
  - Pineapple Lumps
    
    MCos – you are the master of pointing out the trees when we are looking to debate the wood!
    
    A more pertinent observation would be the incompetency of the labour greens government and their ability to waste other people’s/generation’s money was unfortunately not limited merely to medical supplies.
    
    10 1
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    November 4, 2023 1:28pm
  - kevn
    
    I recall a senior person at Auckland Hospital telling me years ago, of all the fancy (expensive) medical gadgets demanded and bought for the in-house specialists, that are never used and just languish in hospital storerooms/basement.
    Probably an issue throughout NZ hospitals.
    Conversely there is some apparatus that still uses very early Windows 95.
    
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    November 4, 2023 2:29pm
emmess

At least one of Labour’s fuck ups is going to be quite simple to fix
https://youtu.be/s0o7mSox6P8?si=a7yJbQZISSmv9qMV
Hopefully, maybe more are too
9 1
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November 4, 2023 10:35am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Where are all the road cones? Must be a shortage.
  
  9 2
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  November 4, 2023 11:30am
  - NothingLeft
    
    Time to cull that bullshit. Look around the world at more normal practice. Road works could be done more quickly and with less than half the current labour force.
    
    17 0
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    November 4, 2023 11:59am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Most of the current labour force just breast feed shovels.
      
      5 1
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      November 4, 2023 5:12pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Stop Co-Governance. Julian Batchelor.

Marama Davidson and Julian Batchelor?
“Just try and come for the Treaty, just try,” she said. She will get her arse handed to her on a plate.
He will run rings around her.

https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/blog/more-threats-marama-davidson-vows-we-will-be-resisting-julian-batchelors-rubbish/

Included is the root cause:
https://issuu.com/esisite/docs/maori_and_their_bag_of_tricks?fr=xKAE9_zU1NQ
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November 4, 2023 10:40am
- Cassandra
  
  We need to sort out the meaning of the ToW urgently and finally. The Mapp suggestion above seems sensible, a Commission of Inquiry, legislated principles along ACT’s lines then a referendum at the next General Election.
  
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  November 4, 2023 10:49am
  - KH
    
    Nah to some hopeless ‘Commission’.
    Best to just get on with it.
    Would you agree with these or not.
    
    ….Would you support or oppose a Treaty Principles Act that defined the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi as follows:
    1 The New Zealand Government has the right to govern New Zealand.
    2 The New Zealand Government will protect all New Zealanders’ authority over their land and other property.
    3 All New Zealanders are equal under the law, with the same rights and duties
    
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    November 4, 2023 11:26am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Rogue James Freeman version.
      
      1 2
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      November 4, 2023 11:31am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Why a referendum? Just do it. Bring out the truth and rubbish the Waitangi Tribunal rogue version. Abolish the Waitangi Tribunal completely. It is only there to rip off the ever paying NET Taxpayer.
    
    12 2
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    November 4, 2023 11:35am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    Some people are desperate to engrave their version of the ToW or its “principles” into tablets of clay now.
    
    But as the years go by fewer and fewer NZers will have any great connection or interest with the events of 1840. And fewer and fewer NZers will want to view our country through a bicultural lens
    
    I’m happy to let the ToW and its so-called principles fade into our collective memory.
    
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    November 4, 2023 11:44am
    - Taieri
      
      I’m happy to let the ToW and its so-called principles fade into our collective memory.
      ————
      
      But it’s a (constantly developing) Living Document, isn’t it?
      Wonder if the original signatories knew about it?
      
      15 1
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      November 4, 2023 12:17pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Fade? Not the Maori way. The Gravy Train is forever unless we stop it.
      
      11 2
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      November 4, 2023 12:21pm
    - Yvette
      
      Waitangi Tribunal Website
      The basic criteria to meet so we can register your claim
      1 – The claimant(s) must be Māori and should specify whom they represent (such as their group, hapū, iwi)
      
      ■ The term used in the te reo Māori [Treaty]version, ‘kawanatanga’, was a transliteration of the word ‘governance’, which was then in current use. Māori understanding of this word came from familiar use in the New Testament of the Bible (when referring to the likes of Pontius Pilate), and from their knowledge of the role of the Governor of New South Wales, whom they referred to as ‘Kawana’.
      – Waitangi Tribunal Website > Meaning of the Treaty > Article 1
      https://www.waitangitribunal.govt.nz/treaty-of-waitangi/meaning-of-the-treaty/
      
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      November 4, 2023 12:31pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Yvette, the Waitangi Tribunal website is a cover of corruption!
        How many times have I put up this URL? http://www.stopcogovernance.kiwi ?
        I do hope you have looked Yvette. Daily posts since August last year.
        
        3 0
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        November 4, 2023 7:35pm
    - Ian Boag
      
      Dunno. Do we still go along with the Magna Carta?
      
      1 3
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      November 4, 2023 2:49pm
      - kowtow
        
        yes
        ‘Some British laws, such as parts of Magna Carta 1297 and The Bill of Rights 1688, and the Act of Settlement 1701 and the Royal Marriages Act 1772, have been incorporated into New Zealand law by the Imperial Laws Application Act 1988.’
        
        https://gg.govt.nz/office-governor-general/roles-and-functions-governor-general/constitutional-role/constitution/constitution
        
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        November 4, 2023 3:33pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    The only reason the ToW still has any traction is because Maori culture is chronically under-performing and we feel sorry for them.
    
    But most of the reason for that is the corrosive effects of handouts (welfare etc), that enables and encourages irresponsible/immature behavior.
    
    They will always struggle if more isn’t demanded of them by their society and their families who tolerate failure, criminality and loser behavior. Stroking egos and enabling victimhood via Maori wonderfulness and it’s associate bullshit is the last thing they need. A comprehensive kick up the arse is what is really required.
    
    Cultures, families and environments that place low expectations on their kids inevitably breed unhappy failures.
    
    17 0
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    November 4, 2023 12:08pm
    - Pineapple Lumps
      
      Why too do we have quotas at University for Pacific Islanders but not Somalians, Chadians, Nigerians, Thais, Filipinos, Chileans etc etc
      
      For some reason the woe is me, I need a handout, positive discrimination is applied to Pacific people and Maori but not other ethnic groups.
      
      One thing my ancestors who mainly settled here in the 1860’s didn’t get was a free pass for tertiary education or anything else. The eked out their existence and now seven generations later have left a legacy to be proud of.
      
      Ideology builds societies. The hard work of my forbears built a country that people from all around the world want to come to and enjoy. They are welcome and particularly those that come with a strong work ethic. The grifters should just go back to where they come from.
      
      Can immigration test for grifter mentality and not give them visas?
      
      13 0
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      November 4, 2023 12:57pm
      - Swifty
        
        According to the Left, Pacific people are special needs.
        
        They alone, out of all immigrant groups, can’t hack it on their own and need to be babied.
        
        Rather humiliating to be viewed this way in my view. I wonder how the average Pacific person feels about this.
        
        I guess on the other hand all this extra cash and privileges and queue jumping can just be viewed as vote buying. I see there are a quarter of a million Pacific folk in Auckland alone – quite a lot of votes there. What’s a bit of taxpayer cash thrown to special interests and/or wasted if it means the majority of those votes come your way?
        
        9 0
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        November 4, 2023 2:29pm
    - BeaB
      
      Well said. They cannot be babies and grown-ups at the same time. Beads and blankets sufficed once. Now it’s KFC.
      I think we all want the best for everyone but it takes a shared effort.
      
      7 1
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      November 4, 2023 3:32pm
vand

Love affair with Hamas- simp’y anti west sentiment?

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/doug-stokes-the-dangers-of-decolonisation

Quote “For much of the past few years, decolonisation theory has been confined to the cultural politics of universities. The effects on academic knowledge and learning may have been dire, but at least they’ve been confined to reading lists and curricula, canons and staff training. Tragically, as we’ve seen this month, this simple-minded logic is now being applied to wider world affairs. It has led assorted academics and the countless students they’ve taught to demonise Israel as a Western outpost and elevate Hamas as some sort of voice of the oppressed.

It is all too reminiscent of Foucault’s celebration of Khomeini and the Islamic Revolution. Those immersed in the logic of decolonisation see Hamas and the broader Palestinian cause as a rejection of Israeli and therefore Western ‘colonialism’. Indeed, they see it as a radical rejection of the West in general. They show little interest in the actual political and social views of those they deem ‘oppressed’. They are merely using the likes of Hamas and the Palestinians to ventriloquise their anti-Westernism.

The inhumanity on display from so many immersed in decolonisation theory is an indictment of today’s academic culture. Too many have shown themselves incapable of seeing the Hamas atrocities for what they were – acts of anti-Semitic barbarism. They see everything through the narrow, abstract lens of decolonisation, categorising whole groups of people, from Jews to Arabs, as oppressors or oppressed according to intersectional ideology.”
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November 4, 2023 11:22am
ds

Final results are bad news for the REA’s but good news for our children. Foreign buyers gone. Bright line stays at ten years.

There is still the possibility of a repeat of 2017.
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November 4, 2023 11:25am
I remember when

Te Pati Maori new MP on Newshub.
“Only Maori can make decisions for Maori.”
So I guess only Scottish can make decisions for Scots.
Only Indians can handle matters relevant to Indians.
Only Chinese…..

So if you are the 42% Maori that is around the average, who make decisions for you?
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November 4, 2023 11:41am
I remember when

Don’t Shut Down Your Anger: Channel It. NY Times
According to research published this week in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, anger is more helpful at motivating people to overcome obstacles and meet their goals than a neutral emotional state.
The reseachers found that anger helped the students solve more puzzles.

Would it be fair to say that so far it has worked with the ‘occupation of Parliament’s grounds’ and the General Election?
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November 4, 2023 11:48am
kowtow

maggy W

Given your interest in science

‘Several bird species in the US and Canada will receive new names based on their habitats and traits rather than people’s names, the American Ornithological Society has announced.

After years of controversy, the society will remove all human names for bird species, including those linked to people with racist histories.’

They’re looking at insects too.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67298103
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November 4, 2023 11:52am
- ClanMcleod
  
  Next they’ll start renaming the stars. This woke lunacy needs to be stopped in a hurry.
  
  12 2
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  November 4, 2023 12:10pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Matariki.
    
    5 0
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    November 4, 2023 12:22pm
  - Master Mariner
    
    Mostly are Arabic named already.
    Good luck with that.
    
    7 0
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    November 4, 2023 1:43pm
    - fightingtemeraire
      
      Twinkle Twinkle little star
      Like a little ruby
      How I wish you were half as bright
      as Zuben al Genubi.
      
      That is one of the navigation stars that isn’t very bright!!!
      
      5 0
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      November 4, 2023 2:34pm
- rouppe
  
  including those linked to people with racist histories
  
  In other words, “starting with those linked to people with racist histories”.
  In other words, “starting with white people”.
  
  After which they will stop.
  
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  November 4, 2023 12:49pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Somehow I don’t think the little tweetie boids give a hoot… or a warble.
  
  Poor old Wilson’s warbler suffers from nomenclatural/ taxonomic overload already…
  
  It’s been variously named as:
  Muscicapa pusilla
  Wilsonia pusilla
  Sylvania pusilla
  Myiodioctes pusilla
  Cardellina pusilla
  
  7 0
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  November 4, 2023 1:45pm
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Once they’ve removed human names from birds, they’ll then ditch the Latin taxonomy
    
    5 0
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    November 4, 2023 5:26pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    No ‘Maori’ translation?
    We have no idea what those names mean. //
    
    5 1
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    November 4, 2023 5:27pm
  - greybeard
    
    Maori name: Te Twiti
    
    5 0
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    November 4, 2023 7:37pm
thirteenstars

UK PM, Rishi Sunak:

To plan protests on Armistice Day is provocative and disrespectful, and there is a clear and present risk that the Cenotaph and other war memorials could be desecrated, something that would be an affront to the British public and the values we stand for.

The right to remember, in peace and dignity, those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice for those freedoms must be protected.

I have asked the Home Secretary to support the Met Police in doing everything necessary to protect the sanctity of Armistice Day and Remembrance Sunday.

https://x.com/RishiSunak/status/1720427545177301472?s=20

The final paragraph is quite telling, as if an invasion is imminent and the govt. is advising the public that we are ready to resist.

That’s what it’s come to. That’s what you get when mass immigration from countries and cultures with ideas antithetical to your own is allowed to happen.
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November 4, 2023 12:26pm
Bridgenag

BBC confirms there was no pandemic
Their headline: ‘Scotland’s winter death toll worst in more than 30 years’

The BBC was one of the important media enforcers globally of the entire pandemic narrative. Assiduously, they pushed lockdowns and vaccines, and shut down any debate.

And now, so very casually, the corporation inadvertently admits that there was indeed no pandemic. For how could there have been, if three years later, after the deaths of thousands, after the successful roll-out of a miracle vaccine, a Scottish winter produced more death than in 2020, than in three decades prior?

The evil of the media is perhaps only outstripped by its stupidity. Nowhere in the report is this connection made; nowhere is the obvious question asked.

Understandably, a Member of Parliament, Andrew Bridgen, decided a few months ago to force a debate on the issue.The response from his colleagues? Only 13 of the 650 of them bothered to turn up.

https://open.substack.com/pub/chriswaldburger/p/bbc-confirms-there-was-no-pandemic?r=1aj1bv&selection=53bed917-415a-49da-9c1b-5a8d4bc52c23&utm_campaign=post-share-selection&utm_medium=web
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November 4, 2023 12:40pm
- Ghost
  
  Hospitals will overcrowded with covid in the uk, staff were overrun with cases, it was literally hell as you can see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIIyXE76bx8
  
  7 1
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  November 4, 2023 12:48pm
- mawm
  
  Bridge – maybe it’s all the f**ked up immune systems unable to cope with a normal winter flu season as predicted by many vaccinologists and virologists.
  
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  November 4, 2023 6:13pm
G the giant from Dunedin

What a tosser that Hooten has turned into.

So it’s Luxons fault Peters took support from ACT because he did not rule Peters out, and it’s Luxons fault TPM decimated the hated Labour Party because he did rule the lunatics out, what an utter load of bullshit, he has become like a woman scorned
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November 4, 2023 1:35pm
- lifesgood
  
  Ah, Hooton, pffft! Just gives the opinion of whoever pays him the most. I’ve got no time or any respect for him.
  
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  November 4, 2023 3:04pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Who is this ‘Hooten’ you speak of Kemosabe?
  Is she important? Never heard of her.
  
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  November 4, 2023 5:36pm
BeaB

Isn’t it depressing how negative everything in the media is about Luxon. They all talk about what he lost, failed to get, missed out on etc etc.
It beggars the imagination that Luxon and his team didn’t anticipate every possible scenario from special votes and were well prepared for the actual outcome.
I am already turning off the news. It’s bad enough listening to the glorification of Hamas without the relentless attacks on Luxon and National.
Put Winston in charge of the media to give our state stations a shake-up. Real news without speculation, bias and loaded language. We could do it for a fraction of the present cost of RNZ and TVNZ and get a far better service. And no more hand-outs. They have told us what they are. We don’t need to pay them.
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November 4, 2023 2:51pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  There were crowds of folks wanting to take selfies with Chris Luxon or just chat to him at the Auckland Diwali festival..
  
  https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/christopher-luxon-and-winston-peters-at-diwali/EGCAP7ZCGG2VZPLU2QOH53FVDM/
  
  Some of our MSM folk don’t have a bloody clue as to how ordinary NZers perceive our new PM-to be.
  
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  November 4, 2023 7:59pm
  - Tauhei Notts
    
    They’ll find more supporters at Diwali than they will at Ratana.
    
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    November 4, 2023 9:56pm
Ghost

Damn, Thriller is 40 years old
4 0
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November 4, 2023 3:15pm
Ghost

Sad, and a timely reminder to check your supplies

Helicopters and ground troops rushed to help people hurt in a strong earthquake that shook northwestern Nepal districts just before midnight Friday, killing at least 128 people and injuring dozens dozens more, officials said Saturday.

Article
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November 4, 2023 6:10pm
Benedict Yu

The connectivity problems on Kiwiblog are becoming kind of serious. 🙁
8 0
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November 4, 2023 6:40pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Seems OK here now. Only twice since my nana nap>>>
  
  4 1
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  November 4, 2023 7:40pm
Suze Wainwright

Can the English only play 10- woman rugby?
2 0
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November 4, 2023 7:19pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

And here we go. Sun is not even on the horizon and sky rockets.
Sky rockets in daylight? Not too many bright people around here. Pressure from the children and tantrums if you don’t
For fuck’s sake – I got woken up at 3.50am this morning by some jerks, not some quiet sky rockets, but the boom boom loud bullshit.
Wankers, and they wonder why fireworks should be banned.
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November 4, 2023 7:50pm
Tauhei Notts

Just home from the wonderful fireworks display at our local Recreation Ground. They got a great crowd.
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November 4, 2023 9:59pm
The Veteran

It is fascinating to watch and read the media interview their typewriters in speculating the form and shape of the incoming National led government. Put simply, Luxon is playing his cards close to his chest as he should do. Negotiating out in the open is a recipe for disaster.

For me the big thing to come out of the final count was TPM winning six of the seven Maori seats. Maori in those seats have opted for a ‘John Frum’ type Party which cannot and will not deliver anything of substance to Maoridom apart from noise. TPM does not speak for Maoridom … how can they when they only number six out of 32 Maori MPs? Maoridom is represented in Parliament by MPs from right across the political spectrum none of whom can claim to speak for Maoridom per se.

The Waikato by-election is a farce. The electoral law is an ass. It should be amended so that only when a winning candidate dies is there a by-election. This time round the seat will be contested by mainly the loony fringe including Matt King’s Democracy NZ (who polled just zero, repeat zero, Party votes in the electorate just three weeks ago). The by-election will cost the best part of $500,000. So much for ‘their’ view of fiscal rectitude at a time when the Government’s books are in crisis.

Luxon has a huge job ahead of him. There will be causalities along the way in putting right the economic and social carnage bequeathed to the country by the outgoing Labour administration.
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November 5, 2023 1:17pm
NothingLeft

Video of illegal ballot stuffing in 2020 election Georgia where a criminal [Mod – unnecessary] realizes the ballots she’s stuffing haven’t been signed, so she goes back to car to fake signatures on them all herself: https://twitter.com/i/status/1720808076654375386

There were thousands of operatives doing this (as seen in 2000 Mules movie)

Biden ‘won’ Georgia by about 10k votes, and Trump is being prosectuted (using draconian Rico statutes) for questioning the result in Georgia.
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November 5, 2023 2:01pm

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