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May 31, 2024 9:08am by David Farrar

Trump guilty

A jury of 12 has unanimously found Donald Trump guilty.

They have returned guilty verdicts on all 34 counts.

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Comments (258)

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Mike

This will be a fun thread.
27 14
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May 31, 2024 9:12am
- plc
  
  Looking forward to the middle ground from both sides 🙂
  
  12 1
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  May 31, 2024 9:38am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Both sides!
    
    4 14
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    May 31, 2024 10:46am
- CRM114
  
  Inorite! Let the cognitive dissonance and Joe Derangement Syndrome flow. brb, need moar popcorn.
  
  4 8
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  May 31, 2024 9:41am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    We already know Joe is deranged. No syndrome, it is a fact!
    
    18 13
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    May 31, 2024 10:06am
    - David Garrett
      
      Steve O: Not deranged…just cognitively (or mentally if you prefer) impaired.
      
      14 1
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      May 31, 2024 12:10pm
      - David George
        
        Demented?
        1/ Suffering from dementia.
        2/ Crazy or foolish.
        3/ Insane; mad; of unsound mind.
        
        5 2
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        May 31, 2024 12:15pm
      - David Garrett
        
        David G: Touche Sir…but as you know, in common usage demented doesn’t mean “suffering from dementia”…although that of course makes sense.
        
        5 1
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        May 31, 2024 1:45pm
      - JackRabbit
        
        @David Garrett 1.45pm.
        
        To suffer from dementia, one has to have a fully functioning brain to start with.
        
        “Suffering from dementia” when the man is a retard / Obama puppet / remote controlled clone / lookalike actor, could be compared to stating that an EV fully engulfed in a lithium ion inferno, has “minor technical issues”.
        
        6 6
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        May 31, 2024 1:52pm
- lastmanstanding
  
  Trumps donations website crashed after the verdict due to the volume of donations coming in.
  
  8 1
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  May 31, 2024 3:06pm
jkt

Oops.
Who would have thought that …..

Trump should have taken the stand …. The jury just needed to hear from him that he is not guilty ….
7 11
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May 31, 2024 9:12am
- mikenmildagain
  
  LOL. It would have been a ‘perjury trap’, something congenital liars should avoid.
  
  13 26
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  May 31, 2024 9:43am
  - Loddenthinks
    
    We’ll take your word for that
    
    28 6
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    May 31, 2024 10:05am
  - jkt
    
    That would have made him guilty of 35 counts when he was only charged with 34 counts!
    I guess his lawyer would have used that fact a grounds for an appeal.
    
    4 8
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    May 31, 2024 10:25am
  - Jack5
    
    It’s a little confusing when the the resident troll posts under two pseudonyms in the same thread: “Mikenmild” and “Mike”.
    
    Sometimes forget which one you’re using, Milky? 🤔
    
    22 4
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    May 31, 2024 10:31am
    - Media hater
      
      Do all his accounts get suspended when he gets sent to the sin bin for his latest intemperate lefty outburst?
      
      8 4
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      May 31, 2024 12:03pm
      - JackRabbit
        
        He pleads that the left hand does not know what the other left hand is doing.
        
        3 5
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        May 31, 2024 1:53pm
- virtualmark
  
  Trump, or at least his lawyers, knows that he would be a complete disaster on the stand.
  
  For one he can’t control his emotions.
  
  For two he can’t stop lying, about everything.
  
  Both would just lead to a cascading series of perjury and contempt claims that would land him in deeper and deeper legal trouble.
  
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  May 31, 2024 10:01am
  - David Garrett
    
    virtual: I’m betting it was a Herculean task preventing him from testifying! This is a man who can do no wrong; a man who rates himself as 10/10 in absolutely everything. What could possibly go wrong?
    
    9 15
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    May 31, 2024 12:13pm
    - virtualmark
      
      I’m not so sure DG. Trump’s always shied away from forums where he’s under scrutiny from a discerning audience. Whether it’s debates, depositions or court cases … he will do whatever he can to not speak.
      
      Fundamentally he’s a coward – like most bullies. Cohen testified. Daniels testified. Pecker testified. Trump ran away.
      
      It’s basically the Monty Python “Brave Sir Robin” song.
      
      9 16
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      May 31, 2024 12:31pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    Partially true. Big problem is that the judge’s anti-Trump agenda would have seen salacious but legally irrelevant (and highly prejudicial) lines of questioning regarding explicit details of sex with Daniels explored and expounded on in depth – as demonstrated by his allowance of extensive exposition of that by prosecutors. That was no-win for Trump.
    
    7 5
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    May 31, 2024 1:20pm
    - David Garrett
      
      Nothing: Actually as I read it, it was exactly the opposite: the judge was very strict on Daniels when she started to try and entertain the courtroom with gritty details about “the encounter”.
      
      10 4
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      May 31, 2024 1:52pm
      - NothingLeft
        
        Her testimony was clearly unnecessary and prejudicially salacious; designed to cast the defendant in a poor light in front for the jury, and as such likely yet another grounds for appeal. An honest/unbiased judge would have stopped before it got started. There was never any argument that a hush-money payment was made, only how book keeping for the payments was done.
        
        I don’t like Trump, (except as only realistic alternative to encroaching repressive authoritarian Democrat alternative) but I abhor the destruction of democratic institutions and the rule of law.
        
        10 3
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        May 31, 2024 2:29pm
      - jkt
        
        Trump is the master of his own disaster.
        He does not need a helping hand from a storm and can overcome a head wind.
        
        3 3
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        May 31, 2024 3:48pm
      - fernglas
        
        Daniel’s evidence was only needed because Trump denied having sex with her. Had he told the truth, she wouldn’t have got near the courtroom
        
        5 1
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        May 31, 2024 4:09pm
      - jkt
        
        Fern:
        Exactly.
        His ego gave her a platform …
        His ego got him in that court ….
        His ego may well get him prison time.
        
        Most people would plead out and get a moderate fine.
        
        An analysis of similar cases predicts that any person over 65 would get a very short incarceration for a similar conviction, if …. the criminal shows remorse.
        Anyone between 50 and 65 will get to serve time on the lower end of the scale if they show remorse, otherwise a good stretch in the chooky.
        Others will get a serious fine and a see you next time.
        
        Why time? They wasted the resources of the state!
        
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        June 1, 2024 3:03pm
- Libertarians are right
  
  The judge severely limited what Trump was allowed to be asked. The judge made his testimony pointless.
  
  The judge also disallowed defense witnesses regarding whether the payments breached electoral law (they didn’t) because that wasn’t the crime he was being accused of – he was being accused of covering up that “crime” (which wasn’t a crime).
  
  He also didn’t allow the defense to use their book keeping experts to show that the “book keeping errors (treating something as legal expenses instead of payment of an NDA)” weren’t actually illegal because the prosecutors didn’t actually argue that they were – i.e. it wasn’t relevant to the case because Trump wasn’t being accused of false bookkeeping. The ridiculous thing is that that is literally the crime he’s been found guilty of!
  
  Of course you would know that if you followed the trial.
  
  24 11
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  May 31, 2024 10:11am
  - kowtow
    
    ‘Of course you would know that if you followed the trial.’
    
    yep , slightly off topic but the same thing happened in another political show trial , that of the police officers in the George Floyd case.
    
    18 3
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    May 31, 2024 11:43am
  - Graeme Hall
    
    Megyn Kelly (ex lawyer herself) has a daily podcast where she often invites top lawyers on to discuss the Bragg-led trial and the legal minutia, often in mind-numbing detail, such as the precise legal definition of “retainer”. Even these lawyers were speculating on what the charges actually were.
    
    This trial violates so many of the fundamental legal protections of a defendant under the US Constitution that it is hard to believe these decisions will stand under appeal.
    
    20 5
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    May 31, 2024 11:57am
    - NothingLeft
      
      Megyn Kelly has been very interesting to listen to through this trial – as a longer form presenter with high quality guests.
      
      7 1
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      May 31, 2024 1:22pm
    - DLC
      
      They wont stand under appeal, however roll on November and the big big big Jury will have their say, it will be goodbye Biden!!!
      
      4 2
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      May 31, 2024 5:53pm
- Notsofast
  
  Guilt was a certainty. Allan Dershowitz explains. Social exclusion is the penalty in New York for enabling Trump.
  
  https://www.youtube.com/live/uksgiZxGk4U?si=Nl92DBetkZIVpgMi
  
  18 3
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  May 31, 2024 11:14am
  - Don Beckett
    
    Yes, this explains how Trump was guilty before he was even charged – in fact he was not charged. Kangaroo court.
    
    11 6
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    May 31, 2024 12:08pm
- jkt
  
  As things stand today, the ex president of America is not beyond the reaches of the law!
  
  The question now becomes what protection from the law is available to a sitting president of America?
  
  7 4
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  May 31, 2024 12:14pm
sirknz

He’s still likely to win in November.
43 4
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May 31, 2024 9:14am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Landslide. All of this just gets more votes!
  
  26 11
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  May 31, 2024 10:08am
  - jkt
    
    Sure.
    That makes the man ever more attractive …..
    
    9 2
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    May 31, 2024 10:27am
- NothingLeft
  
  We’ll see. Conviction will influence critical swing voters, and likely by a few percent.
  
  Only way that gets undone before the election is if the Supreme Court preempts the slow state appeals process in extremely partisan New York state, but that would likely see the Supreme Court targeted and effectively destroyed by Democrats if Republicans don’t win the election.
  
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  May 31, 2024 2:34pm
Rich Prick

Things are about to get spicy in the polls, I’m picking +8%.
47 12
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May 31, 2024 9:15am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Poor Joe and his admin. They are not learning!
  
  33 13
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  May 31, 2024 9:20am
- tknorriss
  
  He might get a bump from some of his ardent followers. But, I suspect the impact on swing voters is what will have the largest impact.
  
  I don’t think it is ideal for a potential president to be facing prison time.
  
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  May 31, 2024 9:32am
  - RoboRob
    
    Generally I would agree. However I think many swing voters (not die hard Trump haters) realise that this case was a trumped up nothing burger. The charge is campaign fraud that people usually get finiancial penalties on, not jail time.
    
    Infact Hillary got charged and fined over a very similar thing from her run against Trump. She paid for ‘opposition research’ (i.e. dirt on Trump) and recorded it as legal expenses. Sound similar?
    
    Yeah the dems can call him ‘convited criminal Trump’ and that will play well to their base but its only just a replacement for the existing ‘impeached rapist Trump’ tag line.
    
    Im sure Biden will be hoping for a bump in the polls. It will be very interesting.
    
    35 11
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    May 31, 2024 9:37am
    - Libertarians are right
      
      No. He was found guilty of incorrect bookkeeping to cover up a crime. The crime being “election fraud” that he wasn’t charged over.
      
      The charge was a misdemeanor but the crime covered up (but not proven) made it a felony.
      
      8 8
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      May 31, 2024 10:16am
    - jkt
      
      Send Hillary and crooked Joe to prison. Ha, ha
      
      7 10
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      May 31, 2024 10:28am
      - Lance
        
        Hipkins level logic there.
        You do realise Trump has been found guilty?
        Just cehecking.
        
        4 9
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        May 31, 2024 12:18pm
      - riffer
        
        The hell? You’re not even trying to discuss the issue. Weirdo.
        
        4 3
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        May 31, 2024 12:40pm
      - NothingLeft
        
        Yep, they were dead-to-rights caught breaking much more serious laws in stealing top secret documents and concealing crimes ‘bleachbit’ etc. And of course Biden is clearly corrupt (using his family and druggy Hunter as bag-men), while Clinton was convicted of actual campaign finance law crimes over manufacturing the ‘Steele dossier’.
        
        But US has a clearly delineated two-tier justice system. Depending on if you are a friend of the Deep State or not.
        
        8 6
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        May 31, 2024 1:27pm
  - Stellaboxer
    
    tknorris unless rightly or wrongly there is a growing concern amongst said swing voters that the Democratic establishment have crossed a line into banana republic behaviour and are the actual threat to US democracy and not its champion. The polls in the US would suggest so and the trail has been playing out for some time. I would lay money on an historic Democratic loss if I were a betting person.
    
    10 3
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    May 31, 2024 10:19am
    - jkt
      
      I will not be surprised if Trump or Biden wins the election.
      I will be less surprised if Biden or Trump do not loose the election.
      
      1 4
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      May 31, 2024 11:33am
      - Media hater
        
        LOSE, not loose.
        
        7 2
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        May 31, 2024 11:51am
      - jkt
        
        Thanks, but looser just seems more appropriate when one comments on American politics.
        
        2 3
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        May 31, 2024 12:16pm
- Rich Prick
  
  This year will be a landslide now. The Democrat’s blind hatred of Trump will guarantee it. I’m in the US in July, I’ll take the temperature for you. I already know there will be some shock state flips now that NY has done its worst. My picks are MI, WI, MN, GA, NM, PA, and even possibly even NJ and also in some states that split their votes into congressional districts, but they are only one or two electoral college votes. The lawfare will turn on the Democrats very, very badly. The Democrats have mobilised the 45% who don’t usually bother.
  
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  May 31, 2024 11:04pm
  - Mike
    
    You sound confident. Cultists always are though, and tend to stick to the leader through all his vicissitudes. Trumpy’s well-documented despicable behavior in business, personal and public life is either ignored, or secretly and even openly praised.
    What the true belivers can’t understand though, is why their messiah’s virtues and abilities are not apparent to all humanity. So, they attribute any and all opposition to, at best, ignorance and, at worst, to evil.
    
    2 1
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    June 1, 2024 7:39am
Clyde

Trump is, and always has been, a nasty piece of work. The presidency was just another ego trip for him. Frankly, I hope he goes to jail without passing “go” and Biden should also go to a home for the bewildered. Time for a competent, honest person to stand up.
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May 31, 2024 9:18am
- RoboRob
  
  All that may be true but Biden aint going anywhere and Trump will be standing even from jail (he wont go to jail). So it comes down to the choice between a shit sandwhich and a douche bag. Pick your poison.
  
  27 1
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  May 31, 2024 9:41am
  - plc
    
    And sadly both are better options than NZ’s TMP
    
    15 2
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    May 31, 2024 9:48am
  - Fuzzysnuggleduck
    
    Turd sandwich vs. Giant Douche.
    Go Douche!!
    
    3 2
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    May 31, 2024 10:18am
  - jkt
    
    Ukraine can use American weapons on enemy troops along their border.
    
    4 1
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    May 31, 2024 10:31am
- Libertarians are right
  
  He is a nasty piece of work but in a Democracy you shouldn’t jail people just because you don’t like them. You get that right?
  
  12 6
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  May 31, 2024 10:17am
  - MCōs
    
    America has a bad record of just such a thing, but usually it’s the people at the bottom of the heap who can’t afford competent legal representation who get screwed
    If have thought Mr Trump has had top notch lawyers in his corner.
    If he doesn’t want to do the time, don’t do the crime; as I’ve read many times right here on this forum
    He squawks about how unfair it all is. Well, they all say that, it’s just that he gets coverage by every newspaper in the land and your common garden criminal doesn’t
    
    4 11
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    May 31, 2024 11:34am
    - Libertarians are right
      
      What crime? Do you know what he did? He called payment of an NDA legal fees! That’s it.
      
      11 9
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      May 31, 2024 11:56am
      - riffer
        
        That’s it, except for you can go to jail for up to four years for that. So hardly nothing.
        
        2 12
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        May 31, 2024 12:42pm
      - Libertarians are right
        
        No Riffer – you can’t.
        
        You can go to jail for 4 years for covering up a crime with illegal bookkeeping.
        
        There was no argument that what he covered up was a crime. The prosecution simply stated it as fact.
        
        There was also no argument that treating an NDA as legal fees was a crime. Again, the prosecution simply stated it as fact.
        
        The defense wasn’t allowed to run those defenses because the prosecution didn’t argue them.
        
        The judge made the case “did Trump treat payment of an NDA as legal fees?”
        
        7 5
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        May 31, 2024 1:02pm
- Stellaboxer
  
  Biden doesn’t run the country ffs! It’s being run by the Clinton/ Obama regime. The biggest crime Trump has committed has been to not be in the club and still winning.
  
  14 6
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  May 31, 2024 10:34am
  - jkt
    
    Send Hillary and Biden to prison.
    
    Most of Trump’s advisers during the first Trump administration are already there…
    
    5 5
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    May 31, 2024 11:35am
    - riffer
      
      For what exactly? Being on the opposite side to what you support? Jesus Murphy.
      
      7 3
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      May 31, 2024 12:42pm
      - jkt
        
        My side or your backside?
        
        0 4
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        May 31, 2024 4:29pm
- NothingLeft
  
  I think nasty is the wrong word, repulsive yes, superficial, short attention span, bullshitting, blowhard. But he is clearly well liked and charming to those around him, even if he is highly frustrating to deal with.
  
  4 3
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  May 31, 2024 1:32pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  So he should go to jail because you think he has an ego and is a “nasty piece of work”. OK.
  
  How is he a nasty piece of work?
  
  Do most politicians have an ego?
  
  7 3
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  May 31, 2024 3:14pm
thirteenstars

Imagine the Maori Party held a trial to decide the guilt of pakeha regarding 180 years of colonisation since the Treaty was signed, oh, and that trial was held at John Tamihere’s house.

Imagine the media, academics and legal commentators waiting with bated breath for the verdict, Maiki Sherman and John Campbell reporting in sombre tones, the trial of the century.

Then imagine it being reported that pakeha were guilty as charged.

Yip, yip.
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May 31, 2024 9:24am
- CRM114
  
  lol, quite an imagination you have there.
  
  7 7
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  May 31, 2024 9:43am
  - jkt
    
    Yeah, a false equivalence.
    But …… it seems to represent a dream for some.
    
    3 4
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    May 31, 2024 11:39am
- bennerg
  
  Good analogy.
  
  What it will mean (apart from Trump of course) is that New York will become a pariah for business – who in their right mind would want to have their business owned in a state that has such a corrupt legal system.
  
  I also suggest this is point where the Democrats have crossed a line, and it will now be “all on”. Both legally and in direct ways. The judge and jury may well be asking for protection similar to witness protection. Likewise for the DA and others complicit in the whole affair. January 6th will look like a sorority party. And the election process in all states process is going to be fair game. It is just going to get so much more complicated from now on. Pandoras box has been opened.
  
  Meanwhile in Israel and the Ukraine ….
  
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  May 31, 2024 11:08am
  - bennerg
    
    Pandora seems to be quite popular …
    
    https://twitter.com/VigilantFox/status/1796377430719873482
    
    Kelly says, “The only way to save the Republic now is to give them a taste of their own medicine.”
    
    She compares the Democrats to a wolf that just “tasted blood” and suggests the only way to stop a wolf from “coming back for more” is “if he loses a limb of his own.”
    
    “Who’s getting indicted next?” she asked. “Joe Biden? Maybe Jill Biden? How low can we go? You may not want to see it. That ship has already left port. That horse has left the barn. That’s where we’re going. So before you celebrate too much over at MSNBC and CNN, who are positively gleeful, gleeful over this absurd conviction, you wait and ask yourself, ask yourself what kind of Pandora’s box has been opened here?”
    
    2 1
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    May 31, 2024 10:09pm
Simon

People waking up to how all fake it is.
19 6
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May 31, 2024 9:29am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Did that Jury go through the details of each and every one of those 34 charges?
  Don’t make me laugh! They found Donald J Trump guilty of paying a hooker to STFU, that is all!
  
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  May 31, 2024 10:13am
  - Libertarians are right
    
    It was one “crime”. The charges were for 12 invoices from Cohen, 11 payments of those invoices and 11 accounting treatments of those payments. All of which related to the $130,000 NDA payment to Stormy Daniels relating to her blackmail.
    
    7 1
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    May 31, 2024 10:20am
  - Jennycraigsfailure
    
    Not a crime in that state or anywhere to pay hush money for the act of adultery.
    Is s crime to cover up those transactions.
    Major problem, he was never charged with falsifying record. It was never proven in court.
    So the verdicts are at best fanciful, at worst criminal.
    
    7 6
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    May 31, 2024 11:25am
    - jkt
      
      34 times wrong!
      34 charges laid and the jury found no reasonable doubt!!
      
      4 3
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      May 31, 2024 11:43am
      - Libertarians are right
        
        Jennycraigsfailure is actually wrong and you are right but that’s the problem.
        
        The only thing the jury had to find was if the transactions Trump called “legal fees” were actually the payment of an NDA. They decided it was (because obviously it was). The judge did not give them the opportunity to question whether that was actually a misdemeanor, nor did he give the defense the opportunity to show that no crime was covered up.
        
        Merchan was a sheep dog and the jury were his sheep.
        
        9 4
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        May 31, 2024 12:00pm
      - jkt
        
        Libertarians also get it wrong:
        A misdemeanour is a crime.
        
        2 4
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        May 31, 2024 12:19pm
      - Libertarians are right
        
        jkt – the misdemeanor was time barred and it was the “crime” that was covered up (electoral interference) that allowed the case.
        
        I didn’t say that the misdemeanor wasn’t a crime – I was pointing to the fact that they needed a felony crime to defeat the time bar and they never even tried to prove that crime.
        
        5 1
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        May 31, 2024 1:08pm
      - Conservatarian
        
        To carry on Libertarians are right’s analogy of “Merchan was a sheep dog and the jury were his sheep”: Bragg was the shepherd, Merrick Garland the farm manager and the puppet master of the Biden regime was the farm owner. This was all done with the blessing of the regime. All so a casual observer can hear Biden slur the phrase “Trump is a convicted felon” repeatedly.
        
        5 2
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        May 31, 2024 1:09pm
      - jkt
        
        Libertarian
        You are right and the “beauty” of it all is that, that fact cannot be a cause for an appeal.
        
        Like an imaginary crime.
        
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        June 1, 2024 3:12pm
  - Omni Consumer Products
    
    Read the jury instructions. Then you’ll see how they came to the only conclusion available to them .
    
    7 1
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    May 31, 2024 12:20pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      And they (the far left and their backers) can (initially) get away with this banana republic stunt. Mostly likely it will go pear shaped but they probably knew that. The name of the game is tying Trump up with shit like this and making him look bad to “enough” sheeple courtesy of the big-tech/media censorship/propaganda complex.
      
      4 2
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      May 31, 2024 3:20pm
  - Fentex
    
    Did you miss that there was a trial with a prosecutor and defence presenting their cases?
    
    Do you have some sort of delusion that jurors are left to investigate accusations themselves?
    
    7 4
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    May 31, 2024 1:14pm
Maggie Pie

Jury directed to stay out till they reached a conviction.
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May 31, 2024 9:34am
- virtualmark
  
  No, no they weren’t. Breathe through your nose and think calmly.
  
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  May 31, 2024 10:02am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Judge told Jury that Trump will be found guilty, or else.//
  
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  May 31, 2024 10:15am
  - virtualmark
    
    Big if true. Certain grounds for overturning the verdict on appeal.
    
    (Narrator: It wasn’t true)
    
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    May 31, 2024 10:24am
    - jkt
      
      Steve was joking.
      Using humour to take the edge off.
      
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      May 31, 2024 11:45am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        It was //
        // means sarc.
        
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        May 31, 2024 12:22pm
      - virtualmark
        
        As you were Steve, you’re a good man.
        
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        May 31, 2024 12:41pm
Fuzzysnuggleduck

Trump might make people squirm uncomfortably sometimes, but the Biden team is a disaster for America. If this helps pave the way for another Biden term of transgenders and rainbow people in high positions (based on anything but talent), and the illegals continue to flood America, and crim hugging and open drug use continue to be normalised, then America is going to be so much more messed up that it might have been.
Like white women being punched in the face when they harvest the fruits of cultural diversity, if this is what enough people want then they really should get what they deserve.
Western Europe is also doomed, but for slightly different reasons.

I am not a Trump fan, and far from thinking he is a God-Emperor or a 3D chess player (or at least, his little head is playing a different game) but the expression I have heard is “we are living through the fall of Rome, but this time we have wifi”.
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May 31, 2024 9:36am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  If crooked Joe manages to cheat enough to win, it is not just bad for America, it is bad for the World.
  BTW who will run for Democrats after joe’s second term?
  Deep down you want Trump to win – we know 🙂
  
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  May 31, 2024 10:18am
  - jkt
    
    //!
    
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    May 31, 2024 4:33pm
Tom Hunter

Of course he was. I never expected anything else.

🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿🍿

The real question is whether our host’s TDS, and that of others on this blog, has reached such extremes that they don’t give a shit about the details of this farce.

I’ve almost lost track of the grounds on which this will be appealed and booted, starting backwards from the Judge’s jury instructions that said they could pick any of three underlying crimes that the business record “falsification” covered up and turned from misdemeanors into felonies – three crimes for which Trump has never even been charged, let alone convicted. In fact the judge said they didn’t even have to be unanimous on the three: a 4-4-4 split would do him just fine.

And now to the USSS and jail time!
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May 31, 2024 9:38am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Conviction will be upheld on appeal. Trumpy’s next set of lawyers will apply on bullshit grounds for habeus corpus to the US supreme court, which will create a new precedent to totally zonerate the messiah.
  
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  May 31, 2024 10:06am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    exonerate*
    
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    May 31, 2024 10:24am
    - jkt
      
      That will be an exzoneable thing to do.
      
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      May 31, 2024 11:48am
  - Libertarians are right
    
    Have you seen the details of the case or are you just making stuff up?
    
    The defense wasn’t even allowed to bring bookkeeping experts to explain why Trump did nothing wrong because the prosecutor didn’t argue that he did. That was what the case was about! They also weren’t allowed to show why the “crimes” supposedly covered up weren’t actually covered up.
    
    It will have to go to the Supreme Court as you say and will create a new precedent BECAUSE what Mercan did is so unprecedented.
    
    But I’m sure you’re happily screaming “To the Gulags” right now.
    
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    May 31, 2024 10:26am
  - virtualmark
    
    State charges, not federal.
    
    There are two levels of New York appeals courts above this case. Trump will surely appeal, likely through both levels, but this won’t see SCOTUS.
    
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    May 31, 2024 12:43pm
    - NothingLeft
      
      Sure it will (assuming it’s not chucked out in lower appeal courts), because the judge and the case have violated numerous constitutional protections.
      
      judge Merchan knowingly breached the law and normal standards of judicial practice in numerous ways, because all he cared about was ensuring a pre-election conviction. See non-partisan Alan Dershowitz’s numerous commentaries for the most egregious examples.
      
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      May 31, 2024 1:42pm
      - virtualmark
        
        You need to stop getting your legal advice from Fox News.
        
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        May 31, 2024 3:48pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        You need to stop getting yours from CNN & MSNBC
        
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        May 31, 2024 7:18pm
    - Mike
      
      Sure, I know it’s state charges. After his appeals fail, and two more changes of unpaid lawyers, a writ of habeas corpus will be sought from the US supreme court, which will make up some reasons to set Trumpy free.
      
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      May 31, 2024 3:33pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    You got that from where Milky? The Guardian?
    
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    May 31, 2024 3:21pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  That is what I said above. Did the Jury have access to the details of each of the 34 charges? Of course they didn’t.
  
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  May 31, 2024 10:21am
  - jkt
    
    Three weeks, three long weeks!
    
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    May 31, 2024 12:21pm
Wayne Mapp

Cohen’s testimony was damming. Juror’s obviously believed him. There was lots of corroborating evidence to support Cohen’s testimony.

Obviously the Trumper’s won’t care. They have factored his “moral code” into their support of Trump long ago.

But swing voters in critical states? Hard to say, but they could hardly have been encouraged. However, they may also discount it, given what they already know about Trump.
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May 31, 2024 9:43am
- Colville
  
  Yeah Trump will be convicted but look at the alternative, currently can probably tie his own shoes but next year? That isn’t the leader of the free world!
  
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  May 31, 2024 10:26am
- Libertarians are right
  
  None of that matters though. That’s the point.
  The case was about book entries treating the payment of an NDA as legal expenses.
  
  The jury found him guilty of putting the NDA into the wrong box. That’s it. That’s all Cohen’s testimony “proved”.
  
  Treating the NDA as legal expenses did not result in any actual crime committed. There was no tax fraud or anything else. Under electoral law, it wasn’t an election expense so didn’t break that law either (which is why he wasn’t charged with that).
  
  They key is that the judge didn’t allow those arguments and witnesses so the only thing the jury had to decide was “did Trump code the NDA as legal expenses?”.
  
  The fact no crime was committed is irrelevant because the judge didn’t allow any evidence on that.
  
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  May 31, 2024 10:33am
  - jkt
    
    A jury of his peers found Trump guilty of a felony.
    Independent voters may well be influenced by the judgement …. or by Fox … or by MSN … or by Trump …..
    
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    May 31, 2024 11:55am
    - Don Beckett
      
      Define a ‘felony’.
      
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      May 31, 2024 12:32pm
      - jkt
        
        Baloney
        
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        May 31, 2024 4:36pm
- Stellaboxer
  
  I would suggest that the number of people in the US who believe any of the recent high holders of office or presidents are without sin is dwindling rapidly making them evermore reluctant to have this one be on the receiving end of the first stone. I would also have a guess and surmise that given the thickness of the smoke rising from some other peoples careers they are finding it harder and harder to be outraged by such a tiny fire so fervently pursued. I believe that as in 2016 many media pundits and political commentators are completely out of touch with the reality on the ground . The lefts counter offensive to the populist wins of 2016 have delivered nothing but economic gloom, war and division and unfortunately for them people can’t help but notice.
  
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  May 31, 2024 11:54am
- NZer In Exile
  
  Wayne Mapp: “Cohen’s testimony was damming. Juror’s obviously believed him.”
  
  Can you summarise how so in your own estimation? Or you are simply taking the word of the lefty media???
  
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  May 31, 2024 2:48pm
Flossie

The verdict isn’t going to change a thing. Those in Trump’s camp will be more entrenched than ever and likewise those who are not Trump supporters will feel vindicated for their stance. Time and money will be spent appealing – and he’s never going to spend even five minutes in jail.
One thing perhaps is Trump is now available to get back on the campaign trail as he is now free from having to be in the courtroom.
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May 31, 2024 9:59am
- Matt Long
  
  It’s certainly energised his base, his donation page had so many hits it crashed apparently.
  https://x.com/CollinRugg/status/1796332425238425734
  
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  May 31, 2024 3:09pm
virtualmark

Must confess I thought it was going to be a hung jury.
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May 31, 2024 10:02am
- RightNow
  
  Apparently that was only going to happen to them if they found him not guilty
  
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  May 31, 2024 11:54am
- NothingLeft
  
  yeah, me too. But I suspect peer pressure and career dangers of cancellation in a 90% Democrat jurisdiction where identities of dissenting jurors would certainly come out would weigh heavily against truly conscientious and open minded deliberation. Just as in pre-civil rights south with regard to black defendants.
  
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  May 31, 2024 1:46pm
  - virtualmark
    
    Juror #2 said they only got their news from Truth Social and from X. They smiled warmly at Trump and his entourage.
    
    Trump wrote a post about “our juror”. Have to think he was referring to Juror #2.
    
    That’s why I leaned towards a hung jury.
    
    But all the jurors, including Juror #2, found Trump guilty on all 34 charges.
    
    And no, I don’t expect any of the jurors will self-identify. None of them will want MAGA wing-nuts turning up their doorsteps.
    
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    May 31, 2024 3:52pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Biden campaign communications director Michael Tyler said “There is still only one way to keep Donald Trump out of the Oval Office: at the ballot box. Convicted felon or not, Trump will be the Republican nominee for president,”

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/biden-campaign-says-convicted-felon-trump-must-now-be-stopped-at-ballot-box-no-one-is-above-the-law/ar-BB1nlGY5?
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May 31, 2024 10:04am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Well, obviously. Not enough time for sentencing and appeals before the election.
  
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  May 31, 2024 10:09am
  - jkt
    
    Nope, wrong, sentencing is scheduled for 14 July 2024.
    
    I am sure that an appeal will follow sentencing.
    
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    May 31, 2024 12:01pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      July 14th. That is interesting. So what are the max sentences?
      Will it be a sentence x 34? Who knows with these crooks.
      
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      May 31, 2024 12:25pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        July 11th. – not 14th.
        
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        May 31, 2024 12:34pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        So the potential sentences are 4 years on each charge!
        
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        May 31, 2024 12:52pm
      - jkt
        
        Steve:
        That is a long time to serve for a victimless crime.
        Serves him right!
        
        That will give him time to do justice to the job of president. Think he will have enough time to drain the swamp?
        
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        May 31, 2024 4:38pm
virtualmark

Next key problem for Trump … sentencing.

One huge difference between criminal and civil trials is that if you’re found guilty in a criminal trail, and the sentence is imprisonment then yes you can appeal, but the norm is that you still go to prison straight away right now do-not-past-go do-not-collect-$200.

So Trump now faces real risk of going to Rikers while we waits for his appeal.

(Or Reichers, I hear they may rename it in Trump’s honour.)
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May 31, 2024 10:04am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Polling is already back firing on the dems for these violations, he will appeal, and he will gain more support, this is a soviet style tactic
  
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  May 31, 2024 11:36am
  - NZer In Exile
    
    If the dems pull this garbage off, and get another term of running the country into the ground and making it vulnerable to scumbag regimes, the only option sane people will have is to pull up stumps and move to red states.
    
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    May 31, 2024 3:25pm
- virtualmark
  
  Also, Trump is likely to now have regular drug tests, which is going to make his daily Adderall eight-ball a problem. And if not jailed (*) he will have regular probation appointments and restrictions on travel.
  
  (* I think the NY judiciary will have to bend to allow the Presidential nominee from one of the two major parties to campaign, so I think they will find some way to not impose a jail sentence).
  
  (But if they do impose a jail sentence then Trump is going to drive his cellmate insane)
  
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  May 31, 2024 12:57pm
- virtualmark
  
  This is gold …
  
  “A sentence of one year or under would most likely be served at Rikers. But if the sentence is over that Trump goes upstate. Initially to the Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora, NY.”
  
  Trump possibly going to the Clinton Correctional Facility. Just pure comedy gold.
  
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  May 31, 2024 1:10pm
Loddenthinks

This has all-but guaranteed Trump’s re-election in November. Most people don’t get why Trump is so popular, and one of the reasons is that the Democrats will literally do anything they can to stop him. The other is that he’s a bulwark against the “progressive” pro-trans, leftist, woke, pro-abortion, godless, reparations-paying, illegal alien welcoming, gender-BS promoting, flag-burning, knee-taking crap that Biden’s handlers are ramming down America’s throats, at pace.

Have a listen to Bill Maher explain it to the air-heads on The View, it’s entertaining and enlightening.

I feel the same way about Trump as a person as most reasonable people i.e. not those with TDS and not those wearing the hat, but I did just offer my TDS mate any amount that Trump will win in November, and offered him 2-1 if Trump was still in jail at the time of the election. The most he’d risk was $50, and not even USD lol.
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May 31, 2024 10:13am
- virtualmark
  
  I hear this “This will help Trump in the polls” argument but maybe you can explain the underlying rationale to me, because I don’t see it.
  
  I don’t think Trump being convicted in this case (or any other than the confidential documents case) will sway the MAGA voter base. They’re locked in. It’s ride or die for them.
  
  But to win Trump needs to get a big swathe of:
  (a) the 20% or so of the registered GOP voters who’ve been voting for Nikki Haley in the primaries, even after Haley herself dropped out, and
  (b) the independent voters who can pivot GOP-or-Democrat.
  
  I don’t see how Trump being convicted here helps him win a larger share of either (a) or (b). Do you have a logical rationale for why it would?
  
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  May 31, 2024 10:22am
  - Jake Dee
    
    Because it shows to many voters that he is a victim of a powerful and corrupt cabal who hate him, fear him and will do anything to stop him. That makes him their champion. Enemy of my enemy stuff.
    
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    May 31, 2024 11:29am
    - virtualmark
      
      Or, alternatively, it shows many voters that he is a sleaze who cheated on his wife with a pornstar, then broke the law to cover it up.
      
      And it shows those voters that Trump brings chaos to everything. And nearly everyone is tired of the chaos.
      
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      May 31, 2024 12:35pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    You don’t see it? The polls have been steadily climb for Trump as each and every pathetic hit job comes, surely you have seen the damage done to the Dems in the polls just during this case which he will appeal
    
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    May 31, 2024 11:38am
    - NothingLeft
      
      Not actually true, on real clear politics pivotal battle ground states his margin over Biden maxed out about 4.5% in February, and has fallen to about 3% now. That’s still a very healthy margin, but not a sure thing.
      https://www.realclearpolling.com/elections/president/2024/battleground-states
      
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      May 31, 2024 5:14pm
  - Libertarians are right
    
    Many minority voters believe they are persecuted by the system.
    They see Trump being persecuted and some feel a kinship so will vote for him.
    There are actually people that think like that. I just don’t know if the numbers are material.
    
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    May 31, 2024 11:39am
    - Stellaboxer
      
      Only problem with that argument Libertarians are always right is that according to all of the polls it’s not a minority of people that support him now it’s an overwhelming majority, in fact it could be reasonably argued that it hasn’t ever been a minority of people who support him outside of the liberal mind.
      
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      May 31, 2024 12:03pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    More and more will be showing they have his back. They fall in behind him – support with the vote.
    
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    May 31, 2024 12:30pm
- Gussy Fink-Nottle
  
  Exactly right Lodden.
  People are that fed-up, they’ll vote for Trump.
  If I was yank, man, I’d roll that dice and vote for him too.
  
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  May 31, 2024 10:50am
  - jkt
    
    I am a fan of Republican politics, I detest wokeness, I detest political correctness, I am a fan of the American project …… I do not have the right to vote but would sure as hell not vote for Trump.
    
    Disclaimer: I do not believe in Heaven and/or Hell.
    
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    May 31, 2024 12:32pm
    - NothingLeft
      
      The only question that matters in Presidential election is which of two possible presidents would you vote for? Lesser of two evils; Biden or Trump?
      
      I think >90% chance Biden is replaced at DNC convention in August given how he is foundering in polls and visibly mentally gone. Newsom will replace him
      
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      May 31, 2024 5:18pm
      - jkt
        
        If it would make Trump go away and I had the right to vote I would vote for that.
        
        I do not hate Trump I find his attitude offensive.
        
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        June 1, 2024 3:14pm
- Don Beckett
  
  Trump will not go to jail. The appeal court will overturn this disgraceful farce. Even if you really hate Trump, you cannot believe/agree that this trial was Fair and Just. My lawyer friend in America feels shame that this is happening in the USA, and believes that it will all be thrown out & the judges disciplined by the SCOTUS.
  
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  May 31, 2024 11:12am
  - Don Beckett
    
    This is my lawyer friend’s initial comment on the trial & verdict :
    “The jury in New York City has convicted Trump on all 34 counts. Sentencing has been set for July 11, 2024. The conviction was purely a product of bias as there was no evidence of any crime. If this can happen to a former President who is a billionaire, this can happen to anyone. A sad day for America and a sad day for the Law. Much more to follow. If we have a Civil War II, we took a large step towards it today.”
    
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    May 31, 2024 11:19am
    - Stellaboxer
      
      Don B I couldn’t agree with your lawyer friend more. I believe the current political establishment in the US has so much to lose and so much to hide that having a president who isn’t in the club is so dangerous to the structure that they will stop at nothing to stop it. Now my prediction based on that is that as it becomes more and more apparent that Biden will lose in a landslide, and it being too late to replace him, the establishment will resort to genuinely drastic action. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Biden became the victim of some crazy white supremacist or the like identified in a grainy video only by his MEGA hat. Far fetched? We shall see some people have more to lose than can be imagined and the US has a habit of knocking off inconvenient Presidents.
      
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      May 31, 2024 12:20pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      jkt has that date at July 14th, which is a Sunday.
      Typo I guess. 11th would be correct.
      
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      May 31, 2024 12:33pm
      - jkt
        
        I was just trying to save you from the horror.
        
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        May 31, 2024 4:42pm
    - jkt
      
      Just and fair!
      A jury made up of Trump’s peers found him guilty of a multiple misdemeanours and a felony.
      
      The basis of alternative arguments is denialism.
      
      “The jurors were not Trump’s peers.” That is ……. yet another court case that is being pursued in American courts as we speak. Presidential immunity.
      
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      May 31, 2024 12:35pm
      - NothingLeft
        
        This whole show trial was decided by an outrageously biased judge acting on behalf the Democrats in concert with a Soros backed DA Bragg. He’s a political donor to Democrats, and to a literal “Stop Trump” organisation and has a daughter getting rich off anti-Trump Democratic fundraising. The jury were incidental given how heavily he had his thumb on the scales.
        
        Be interested to hear how Judge Merchan while only an ‘acting’ judge not on the list of 24 judges that New York cases are randomly assigned to somehow ended up presiding over this trial, Trump’s property valuation ‘fraud’ trial, and the Steve Bannon trial in the same year. Shenanigan’s at play.
        
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        May 31, 2024 1:12pm
      - Tom Hunter
        
        Scottsboro Boys
        
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        May 31, 2024 4:00pm
    - virtualmark
      
      Don, have you ever been on a jury? If so, did you feel the responsibility on you to put your own emotions aside and to do the right thing?
      
      So why do you think the NY grand jury that levied the indictment on Trump felt differently? And why do you think the NY trial jury that found him guilty felt differently?
      
      Are you open to the idea that there actually was a crime here and that a jury took their duty seriously, listened to all the evidence, and found beyond reasonable doubt that Trump was guilty?
      
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      May 31, 2024 12:38pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        There was no crime. See my comment in which I quote my friend who is a lawyer in America.
        Yes, I have been on a jury, and emotions don’t come into it.
        
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        May 31, 2024 2:09pm
      - Omni Consumer Products
        
        There was no crime. Alan Dershowitz said as much.
        
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        May 31, 2024 2:22pm
      - virtualmark
        
        You guys need to stop getting your legal knowledge from Fox News.
        
        MAGA-land is spinning right now because Fox has told them there’s no case here, Trump is going to win, it’s all a setup.
        
        Fox. Is. Not. A. News. Network. Fox lies. Fox News is to journalism what the World Wrestling Federation is to athletics.
        
        That’s why you guys are struggling right now. The neutral observers (try sites like lawfaremedia.org for example) all laid out the simple legal peril Trump was in. Common sense said that if Cohen was convicted to three years in prison on the same charges for the same events then Trump had to be at real risk of also being found guilty. But you heard none of that (in fact the opposite) because Rupert is in the tank for Trump.
        
        Here’s what Fox and the right-wing media think of you:
        “[Fox News’s viewers are like] terrorists, but especially dumb ones. Cousin f—– types not Saudi royalty.” That’s a message from Alex Pfieffer (Tucker Carlson’s producer) to Tucker Carlson, found by Dominion Voting Systems under discovery. That Fox paid Dominion US$780m should tell you that Fox has serious credibility problems.
        
        You’re being fed bullsh$t and all you want is a bigger spoon.
        
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        May 31, 2024 3:59pm
      - WorthwhileAucklandInitiative
        
        What’s the crime then?
        
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        May 31, 2024 9:09pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    The only thing is the rotten tainted judge may well say you sit in prison while you await your appeal
    
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    May 31, 2024 11:40am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Home D? No travel? Can’t even go to Mar a Lago.
      If that happens it will show what a right prick Merchan is.
      
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      May 31, 2024 12:36pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    The judge has totally left the reservation of jurist norms of running trials in a way that ensures it won’t be thrown out on appeal – with myriad egregiously unfair rulings and wholesale trampling of constitutional protections. He clearly doesn’t care about anything but getting a trump criminal conviction on the books pre-election for propaganda purposes, and likely is planning some sort of political or non-legal career shift on the back of raising his profile by taking this scalp for his tribe.
    
    As such most likely that he will go for a custodial sentence for exactly same propaganda purposes, to get that money shot of Trump behind bars for election propaganda purposes.
    
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    May 31, 2024 8:09pm
leoj

Just when you thought things were crazy…….

The independents will decide this. The entrenched scum Democrats will not alter their disdain for Trump and this will only strengthen the resolve of his supporters.

Of the independents, I am picking that they will break towards Trump. His poll numbers will improve, possibly by as much as 4-6 points.
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May 31, 2024 10:15am
Tom Hunter

Chuckle…
CNN was already unhappy…

According to Zeleny, despite exhaustive media focus, the trial has not resonated as a critical issue among these voters. Instead, economic issues, particularly inflation, are at the forefront of voters’ concerns as they assess their choices for the upcoming election.
😂😂

And even Ye Olde NYT…
In a recent Yahoo News/YouGov poll, only 16 percent of respondents said they were following the trial very closely, with an additional 32 percent following it “somewhat” closely. “Those numbers rank as some of the lowest for any recent news event,” wrote Yahoo News’s Andrew Romano. When people were asked how the trial made them feel, the most common response was “bored.”

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
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May 31, 2024 10:26am
Jack5

From the Wall Street Journal editorial board’s view:

What if Mr. Trump loses the election and then is vindicated on appeal? If Democrats think that too many Republicans today complain about stolen elections, imagine how many more might next year.
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May 31, 2024 10:28am
NothingLeft

Alan Dershowitz (politically Neutral legal scholar with 60+ years experience in criminal defense) opines that this is a terrible, hopelessly political verdict:

https://youtu.be/dZfxcNt_Wqc?t=83

Peru’s General Óscar Benavides: “For my friends, everything; for my enemies, the law.”
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May 31, 2024 10:34am
imalwaysright

People are realising that if the government can do this to Trump then they can do it to anyone .
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May 31, 2024 10:37am
- judith8409121
  
  it’s more the other way around
  people realise the sleaze swamp in politics can do it to anyone and they choose to do it to Trump
  
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  May 31, 2024 12:43pm
Its only I

Got a Text from a red state US farmer I hosted and guided while he was here trout fishing….

Good day for the republican party…bad day for the Trump cult.

then…

Trump will not win the election!

I wait for the Trump limerants to cancel this comment by down voting it into the shadows…cause free speech in stuff lol
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May 31, 2024 10:42am
- ISeeRed
  
  There’ll be plenty of trout-fishing red-state farmers that will disagree so what does that prove? But upticked for introducing me to a new word “limerant”.
  
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  May 31, 2024 2:28pm
surfing

This verdict doesn’t really matter to ride or die trumpists.

He could literally machine gun a crowd of people down with 50 cameras broadcasting to the world and his supporters would say he was setup .
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May 31, 2024 10:43am
- Tom Hunter
  
  Looking back he probably should have shot someone on 5th Avenue, because those are crimes that Alvin Bragg does not pursue.
  
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  May 31, 2024 11:13am
  - Vory v zakone
    
    May 29 2024…
    The shot heard around the world 💥
    
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    May 31, 2024 7:43pm
Jake Dee

A sad day for America.
By going to such extreme lengths to bend the legal system to affect the political system the elites have shown that they have no faith in that political system.
A decision had been made, so then they had to go on a massive hunt to find the laws and the evidence to prove that they were right.
It reminds me somewhat of when those prisoners (sorry DETAINEES) were sent to prisons (sorry CAMPS) in Guantanamo for torture (sorry ENHANCED INTERROGATION). Why Guantanamo? Because it was beyond the reach of Federal courts. The American legal system was unsuitable, so it’s best to avoid it, the English language is unsuitable for the project so it’s best to alter it.
It’s important to remember that this is the same political class that claim they are essential, to run something called The Rules Based International Order.
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May 31, 2024 11:07am
- imalwaysright
  
  Correct JD
  And the scariest part is that they did it in full view of the world.
  This was no kangaroo closed court. This was a massive “fuck you, we can do whatever we want” to everyone who witnessed it.
  Yes, a sad day for America , but also a sad day for the world.
  
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  May 31, 2024 2:29pm
- WorthwhileAucklandInitiative
  
  Your Gitmo analogy doesn’t hold. Guantanamo Bay is Free Cuban territory, leased and administered by the US Federal Government. US Federal law applies.
  
  Gitmo was, and is, a lawful detention center. Its detainees were/are classified as Unlawful Combatants, and therefore do not even have the Geneva Convention to protect them. A summary execution of the lot of them would be perfectly legal under US law, subject to US Armed Forces codes of conduct.
  
  If you want to whine about that, remember that Obama promised to close it in 2008, and it was still there on January 20th 2017 when he left.
  
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  May 31, 2024 3:20pm
  - Jake Dee
    
    That you can’t decide if Gitmo is American territory or Cuban sovereign territory shows what an excellent analogy it is.
    There was no physical reason to hold those men there, it was a legal grey zone that could be exploited for political purposes. If the US military thought their case was legally and morally rock solid then they could have held those men in California or New York, where they already had the maximum-security prisons.
    They didn’t.
    They didn’t have faith in the legal system that they swore to uphold so they evaded it with all their weasel like cunning. They also require everyone else to obey it.
    
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    May 31, 2024 4:50pm
    - WorthwhileAucklandInitiative
      
      1. Guantanamo Bay is legally Cuban territory, but is also legally leased by the Cuban government to the United States government, under terms that allow the US government jurisdiction over the territory for the term of the lease. Despite the government of Cuba changing both its political ideology and mind about the lease, it’s still in effect, and therefore still under US jurisdiction. There is no legal grey zone at all. US Federal law applies;
      
      2. The physical reason to hold Unlawful Combatants in Gitmo is really simple – they are in US military custody and Gitmo is a US military base. It’s a much safer place to hold dangerous people than either Afghanistan, or the continental United States;
      
      3. What part of Unlawful Combatants don’t you understand?! These people were fighting unlawfully against US soldiers and trying to kill them. There is no “legal system” for these people – they’re not under any protection of US law, nor should they be. They have no rights at all. They are literally lucky to be alive. They weren’t charged with a crime. They don’t have rights to lawyers. There is no “case”. The US government was not evading anything, because there’s nothing to evade.
      
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      May 31, 2024 9:05pm
      - Jake Dee
        
        I’m arguing the point about the specific conditions or legal status of the prisoners. I’m arguing that Guantanamo Bay Naval Base was obviously chosen as the site for the prison due to its uncertain legal status. The U.S. government has argued that people held at Guantanamo were not entitled to certain rights under U.S. laws because the base was outside U.S. territory. This legal ambiguity allowed authorities to imprison individuals without the full protections afforded by U.S. courts.
        The US has literally hundreds of military bases at home and around the world, so why use this one?
        There is no way that a prison on a base surrounded on 3 sides by a hostile nation and a on the fourth by the ocean, and 90 miles away from the mainland is the most secure place for high value prisoners. If islands are so great, then why not Hawaii? If being on foreign soil is an advantage, then why not Okinawa?
        Why is the American “Super Max” prison built into a mountain in Colorado? Security and practicality.
        The reasons for holding prisoners in Gitmo are political and legal not practical or moral.
        This is where the analogy to the Trump cases come in, there is no practical advantage in this prosecution in terms of time, money and resources, the law was twisted until it screamed for a purely political advantage.
        
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        June 1, 2024 1:25pm
bennerg

A 28y old Netanyahu, after fighting for his country in 2 wars and several battles.
Looks like his message aged well.

https://x.com/mihaschw/status/1795382128261087580
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May 31, 2024 11:10am
Jake Dee

William Roper: “So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!”

Sir Thomas More: “Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?”

William Roper: “Yes, I’d cut down every law in England to do that!”

Sir Thomas More: “Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned ’round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man’s laws, not God’s! And if you cut them down, and you’re just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake!”
― Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons
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May 31, 2024 11:31am
- thirteenstars
  
  Staggering movie.
  
  That scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDBiLT3LASk
  
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  May 31, 2024 12:44pm
- Mike
  
  Hah!
  Which character in A Man for All Seasons does Trumpy most resemble?
  More
  Rich
  Cromwell
  Henry
  
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  May 31, 2024 12:50pm
  - Jake Dee
    
    Well because Trump is a colourful character, larger than life, politically powerful and gets into trouble because of having to many women, then obviously he most closely resembles Henry Tudor (VIII).
    The real problem here is trying to find a modern American who resembles Sir Thomas Moore, a highly moral and religious lawyer and politician who will rather go to his death than lie for political purposes, knowing that he will ultimately be judged by God.
    
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    May 31, 2024 5:00pm
  - MCōs
    
    MacBeth
    
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    May 31, 2024 6:21pm
Jennycraigsfailure

Putin would be impressed.
Lol, this is just beginning.
I thought Rome would have known they were failing and corrected their plight.
We are seeing a repeat of that.
Civilization has seen many come and go. This doesn’t look good as the USA tears itself apart under the guise of law and order, when it’s really anything but .
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May 31, 2024 11:39am
- JackRabbit
  
  Putin will NOT be impressed. He knows it pushes the world closer to WW3.
  
  Putin, Sept 2023:
  Russian President Vladimir Putin asserted Tuesday that the criminal cases against former U.S. President Donald Trump are political revenge that show the fundamental corruption of the United States.
  
  “As for the prosecution of Trump, for us what is happening in today’s conditions, in my opinion, is good because it shows the rottenness of the American political system, which cannot pretend to teach others democracy,” Putin said at an Eastern Economic Forum gathering in Russia’s Pacific Coast city of Vladivostok.
  
  “Everything that is happening with Trump is the persecution of a political rival for political reasons. That’s what it is. And this is being done in front of the public of the United States and the whole world,” he said.
  
  https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/putin-says-prosecution-of-trump-shows-rottenness-u-s-political-system
  
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  May 31, 2024 2:12pm
  - Mike
    
    Vladimir Putin, well-known expert on political persecution and corruption say what?
    
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    May 31, 2024 3:39pm
  - Don Beckett
    
    Putin should know – he’s locked up or disposed of his political enemies.
    
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    May 31, 2024 3:45pm
Libertarians are right

I’ll put this out there. A few years ago, Andrew Little defamed a private citizen. It was clear and obvious.

However, the judge decided that Little got qualified privilege and therefore was allowed to say what he said.
Given that call by the judge, the jury had to declare him not guilty – they had no choice because the judge had declared the law – that he was allowed to do what he did.

This is the same kind of thing – the judge made the case so narrow that there was only one possible outcome from the jury.
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May 31, 2024 12:05pm
Its only I

Trump can’t vote or own a gun. lol

Trump…all your ever hear from him is either projection or confession.
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May 31, 2024 12:13pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Apparently he has/has 5 guns and a CC Permit.
  That was back in 2015.
  
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  May 31, 2024 12:39pm
  - Mike
    
    He’s protected by the secret service, who would obviously not let him carry a gun.
    
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    May 31, 2024 12:47pm
    - WorthwhileAucklandInitiative
      
      He has a Second Amendment right to concealed carry of a weapon. The Secret Service can advise him not to carry, but cannot remove his right as it currently stands. We don’t know if he does carry, because concealed carry is, by definition, nobody’s business but his.
      
      Conviction of a felony obviously affects that right. We await with bated breath the revelation of whatever felony the crook of a judge will convict him of.
      
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      May 31, 2024 3:27pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      Milky, why would the secret service “obviously” not let Trump carry a gun in your view?
      
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      May 31, 2024 3:32pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      I always figured that if Trump had his jacket unbuttoned he was not carrying. If it was done up, he was carrying.
      See below comment about second amendment rights.
      
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      June 1, 2024 10:12am
      - Mike
        
        You have changed my mind, Steve.
        Bodyguarded people would be stupid yo carry their own weapons. Trump is very stupid, so probably does carry a gun.
        
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        June 1, 2024 10:35am
- virtualmark
  
  Yep, Florida doesn’t allow convicted felons to vote until they’ve completed their sentence. So Trump will almost certainly be unable to vote for himself in November.
  
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  May 31, 2024 1:25pm
  - Libertarians are right
    
    Which may cause a constitutional issue, allowing Federal Courts to fast track their dismissal of the case.
    If Trump gets jailed, Federal courts take over so Merchan will almost certainly seek to restrict Trump as much as possible without jailing him.
    
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    May 31, 2024 3:19pm
    - Mike
      
      Your legal theories are getting steadily more entertaining.
      
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      May 31, 2024 3:40pm
    - virtualmark
      
      What? Did you start drinking at 9am?
      
      Under what legal power can Federal courts dismiss a case completed in the NY state system?
      
      Serious question: If you can’t imprison someone because they’re running for office then does that mean that as long as you keep running for office you can commit as many crimes as you like?
      
      Serious question: Should Black Power and the Mongrel Mob register as political parties and stand members as candidates in all the electorates, so that they can get immunity from prosecution?
      
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      May 31, 2024 4:06pm
      - NothingLeft
        
        Because the conviction contravenes many protections guaranteed by the constitution, which is above state law and ultimately the demesne of the Supreme Court. New York’s partisan jurists up to and including New York Supreme Court are still subordinate to the US Supreme Court in constitutional matters.
        
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        May 31, 2024 5:39pm
      - virtualmark
        
        Good luck with that theory.
        
        In the real world the DOJ can pull a case from state court into Federal court if it involves Federal land, a Federal employee, and a few other exceptions.
        
        That’s not the case here. Trump is an *ex-*President, which means he is just a regular American citizen. He is the presumptive nominee for the election later this year, but not yet confirmed as the nominee, and even if he were he’d just be a candidate … and not the President.
        
        I just don’t see how this case has any connection to the Federal world that would allow the DOJ to pull it up to a Federal court.
        
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        May 31, 2024 7:47pm
judith8409121

great day for trump – this will polarise the voters. The pro-trump will be out in force and the antis will think this is enough. All in all anyone who thinks this is a good outcome are now so locked into a pattern of belief they are too deep in a cult to be saved,
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May 31, 2024 12:46pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Tucker Carlson. Trump will win if he is not killed first.
This is a dangerous time for Trump. If the Dudge sends him to jail now to await sentencing, there better be more guards and cameras that work.
We have seen this play out before.

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/tucker-carlson-warns-trump-will-win-election-if-he-s-not-killed-first/ss-BB1nma9f?
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May 31, 2024 12:47pm
- Mike
  
  He’s not going to jail. Sharing prison space with Trumpy would quickly get any cellmate freed as having suffered ‘cruel and unusual punishment’
  
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  May 31, 2024 12:53pm
  - Vory v zakone
    
    Yep you are correct. Looks like no jail time…
    
    Sorry to dash Trump-haters “orange jumpsuit” fantasies, but Donald Trump won’t be taken into custody; or go to Rykers, even if he’s slapped with a prison term. He’ll be free on BAIL PENDING APPEAL.
    
    Sentencing won’t be enforced until all NY appeals are exhausted — well past the election.
    
    #Provethiswrong
    
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    May 31, 2024 7:57pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    The judge clearly want’s maximum profile for himself from this case – he’ll send Trump to jail to raise his profile further by taking the biggest possible scalp for his tribe (he appears to want fame or has political aspirations beyond being a jurist).
    
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    May 31, 2024 8:13pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      His sorry arse will be shafted by Trump in 2025.
      
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      June 1, 2024 10:14am
- Fentex
  
  Kevin Drum made an interesting point about this recently – he pointed out that the polls which show a fairly even competition are all counting answers to questions on where intended votes will land.
  
  And ignoring the roughly 20% of people who don’t announce a preference.
  
  Drum is sure all those who have determined they’ll vote for Trump would say so – and come the day nearly all those 20% will vote for Biden, because he can’t believe many not already decided will choose Trump at the crux.
  
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  May 31, 2024 1:21pm
the deity formerly known as nigel6888

And this is how Civil War 2.0 started. When the US Democrat party decided to criminalise its political opponents and become a Banana Republic.

The same US that is trying to strong arm Georgia to not pass its foreign agents legislation that prohibits CIA black hats from interfering in elections – because the US is apparently a paragon of virtue.

The same US that weaponised SWIFT and is causing the BRICS to move off the US$ as the global exchange medium.

The same US that put forward corrupt dotard Biden as Obama’s puppet to complete the creation of a socialist police state in the US.

And, its nearly riot season again! (yay! from the river to the sea, Poneke will be free!)

This Deity thinks it’s time to stockpile pasta, fuel and toilet paper again, it is going to get bumpy.
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May 31, 2024 1:09pm
- MCōs
  
  America became a banana republic when Mr Trump promised to pardon those convicted of crimes related to the storming of the capitol three years ago
  
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  May 31, 2024 5:36pm
  - Tom Hunter
    
    Members of the FALN, a Puerto Rican paramilitary organization that set off 120 bombs in the United States, mostly in New York City and Chicago, were convicted for conspiracy to commit robbery, bomb-making, and sedition, as well as firearms and explosives violations.
    
    There were 16 of them who were convicted of conspiracy and sedition and sentenced with terms ranging from 35 to 105 years in prison.
    
    On August 11, 1999, Clinton commuted their sentences .
    
    On January 20, 2001, his last day in office, Clinton also pardoned Linda Evans and Susan Rosenberg of the radical Weather Underground, who both had sentences for weapons and explosives charges commuted: Evans had served 16 years of her 40-year sentence, and Rosenberg had served 16 of her 58 years.
    
    There were a ton of other pardons that day, but mostly for fraud and such.
    
    Funnily enough I’ve searched the Interwebby for comments from one “MCōs” as to how this reduced America to being a banana republic and found nothing.
    
    I’ll keep looking.
    
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    May 31, 2024 5:58pm
    - MCōs
      
      Apart from anything else I wasn’t even familiar with social media back then and only vaguely interested in American politics
      I used my time at work to . . . . work
      
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      May 31, 2024 6:51pm
      - Mike
        
        Tom loves resorting to whataboutisms. There is an obvious difference between presidential candidates promising pardons and presidents exercising clemency.
        Tom might well expand further on his favorite theme of evil Democrats and pure Republicans on his excellent No Minister blog.
        
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        May 31, 2024 7:03pm
  - Jake Dee
    
    trump made no such promise. Are you getting that from the Time Magazine interview where he said he would CONSIDER pardons for those convicted in the J6 incident? That’s perfectly correct, if a case for pardon is before the president, then they should consider it.
    IIRC that was the interview where our gracious host misrepresented the actual quote by clipping out the “consider” part. An innocent mistake? we should consider that, but if it’s just a random error then we would expect the ball to bounce left-right 50-50.
    We are in an atmosphere thick with the pitfalls and boobytraps of misquotes, disinformation, distortions and outright lies.
    It behooves everyone to move with extreme caution.
    
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    June 1, 2024 1:43pm
Fentex

A bit of a surprise – a similar case against someone else (using the same logic – that a well proven misdemeanour established it enabled a federal crime) failed.

It leaves a lot of room for differing opinions and isn’t as clear cut as other indictments against Trump (such as his mishandling of classified documents – where the matter doesn’t have much room for opinion to differ).
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May 31, 2024 1:17pm
bennerg

As mentioned before, the battle begins:

https://twitter.com/AlexJonesMW3/status/1795810096775118960

https://madmaxworld.tv/watch?id=66563970507b4de70f09a49f
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May 31, 2024 1:18pm
kowtow

To all the gloaters .

Be careful what you wish for , this is not justice ,it is the modern equivalent of civil war ,played out through corrupt political machines , this time the Democrats .

This lawfare is unprecedented and international enemies of the USA will be watching in wonderment as the only democratic superpower tears itself apart , while they continue to engage in war , terror , uranium enrichment , militarisation of sea lanes and subverting where ever possible democratic states .

Meanwhile the Oval Office is occupied by an appeasing , weak and senile front man.
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May 31, 2024 1:40pm
- mogg
  
  Yes a weak sitting president goes full banana republic using lawfare to attack his opponent.
  “If they can do this to me imagine what they can do to you”
  A conviction by a jury chosen from a heavily Democratic city and legal system, if Joe sees this as a victory he should think again. Trumps MAGA base will be invigorated by this outcome, and he is now freed up to campaign properly again.
  
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  May 31, 2024 3:11pm
  - MCōs
    
    I keep reading Mr Trump is going to win NY
    https://x.com/mmpadellan/status/1796333768468312329?s=61&t=yFkzCNMWRCaVt1p5eRxUog
    
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    May 31, 2024 5:31pm
WorthwhileAucklandInitiative

The old Star Wars quote comes to mind:
https://youtu.be/iVBX7l2zgRw?si=3W6iZSvlh4Yn0_He

My only fear in all this is that Trump won’t drop enough people into the the Pacific Ocean from helicopters in retaliation.
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May 31, 2024 1:42pm
- NothingLeft
  
  Or from Revenge of the Sith:
  https://tenor.com/en-GB/view/star-wars-padme-amidala-so-this-is-how-liberty-dies-with-thunderous-applause-natalie-portman-gif-21701032
  
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  May 31, 2024 2:19pm
  - Jake Dee
    
    Or from Empire Strikes Back
    ” I am altering the deal, pray that I don’t alter it any further”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D8TEJtQRhw
    
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    May 31, 2024 5:11pm
CRM114

If there is one person who is as unhappy about this verdict as Trump…it would be David Dennison!
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May 31, 2024 2:09pm
- Mike
  
  Perhaps David Dennison should have come forward to testify to Trump’s enduring honesty.
  
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  May 31, 2024 3:23pm
emmess

Any that doubts that this is not lawfare
Watch Ben Shapiro’s interview with Harmeet Dhillon
Both lawyers

https://www.youtube.com/live/EDnneSGoLdM?si=1ArKFwsJq7bHfvg_&t=1212

There was no previous legal precedent for this conviction.
No one had ever been even charged with what had Trump previously

What a complete joke!
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May 31, 2024 2:50pm
- virtualmark
  
  Emmess,
  
  Bragg charged over 160 different people/organisations with this same charge (falsifying business records) in the last 18 months. He’s used that particular statute many times.
  
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  May 31, 2024 8:07pm
kglm

The relevant question now is what impact this will have on the Presidential election. Trump has already won the Republican nominating contest, so this wont prevent him being on the ballot. It gives both sides a label to use: convicted felon v. victim of corrupt political persecution. Several polls in the US have indicated in will make zero net difference (those less likely to vote for Trump equals those more likely to vote for Trump). Trump has already been found to have been a rapist in an earlier civil trial, but this appears to now have zero impact. The eventual overturning of both verdicts is inevitable, but that will be after the November election and wont make any difference. There are still several months before the election, and this trial will become an almost forgotten irrelevance by that time. So my answer to the question I posed at the beginning is: none.
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May 31, 2024 2:53pm
- Don Beckett
  
  “Trump has already been found to have been a rapist in an earlier civil trial “,
  
  That is not correct. Maybe you have some evidence?
  
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  May 31, 2024 3:50pm
  - kglm
    
    I refer to the Jean Carrol civil trial (about six months ago I think) where Trump was found to have sexually assaulted her in a store changing room (no evidence except her word) and ordered to pay her many millions (about US$83m from memory).
    
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    May 31, 2024 4:26pm
    - kglm
      
      I think that this case having been forgotten, helps prove my point. That, the lawfare has been ineffective because most people recognise it as such rather than independent legal process.
      
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      May 31, 2024 5:39pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        Ah – that’s the one where the so-called rapee Jean Carroll could not remember the day or year that it happened, and got the description of the place it happened so totally wrong.
        Ah – that false conviction. Another stitch up.
        
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        May 31, 2024 7:31pm
- virtualmark
  
  The GOP could still decide to nominate a different candidate at their convention.
  
  Look it’s hugely unlikely … like vanishingly small possibility of actually happening given Trump’s headlock around the party. But it is an option for them.
  
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  May 31, 2024 4:09pm
Tauhei Notts

Update from Betfair, over the past 10 days.
Trump weakened from $1.87 to $2.04. Biden in to $2.54 from $2.66.
The interesting one is Michelle Obama in to $34 third favourite from $50. There must be some punters who think she will come out from under the woodpile.
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May 31, 2024 2:54pm
- Mike
  
  Was your ‘woodpile’ reference intentional?
  
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  May 31, 2024 3:16pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    Does it matter, or you want to try creating woketard “offense”?
    
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    May 31, 2024 3:35pm
NZer In Exile

The whole thing is obviously a profoundly inconsistent application of the law designed to hamper the Trump campaign. Like with all the other fabricated obstacles thrown in Trump’s way by the far-left deep state, the media just pretends they never happened once they have been outed as crap.
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May 31, 2024 2:59pm
BananaLlama

The only thing Trump is guilty of is beating the Democrats in a fair election.
6 3
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May 31, 2024 3:07pm
- MCōs
  
  Two things now
  Several more if you were to ask his many wives
  
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  May 31, 2024 3:44pm
  - Mike
    
    …beating…
    
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    May 31, 2024 3:52pm
  - Don Beckett
    
    So 3 wives is many? I suppose – but do you have evidence that any of them were beaten, or is it just another of your snide slurs?
    
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    May 31, 2024 3:52pm
    - mikenmildagain
      
      I think there was only Ivana’s deposition.
      
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      May 31, 2024 4:41pm
    - MCōs
      
      I was thinking more of his extra marital fornication
      
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      May 31, 2024 5:29pm
Tony Stuart

The verdicts have prompted a flood of campaign donations to Trump, which came in such a wave that his donations website crashed for a while. Several donations in excess of US$100,000 have been received, the highest to date being $800,000.
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May 31, 2024 3:52pm
- virtualmark
  
  Trump lies.
  
  Probably best to wait for the FEC filings to see the truth.
  
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  May 31, 2024 4:10pm
- mikenmildagain
  
  The grift continues.
  
  3 4
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  May 31, 2024 4:41pm
  - fernglas
    
    There’s a sucker born every minute. P T Barnum.
    
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    May 31, 2024 7:29pm
Don Beckett

The Trump juggernaut gathers momentum. MAGA 😆
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May 31, 2024 3:54pm
spanish_tudor

At least Trump won’t trans your kids.
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May 31, 2024 4:07pm
Conservatarian

Juan Merchan has now introduced Democrat Tikanga into New York’s (and potentially all other blue state) legal system
5 3
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May 31, 2024 4:18pm
fernglas

A unanimous jury verdict on all counts? Sounds like a slam dunk to me. And don’t bang on about them all being Democrats; statistically in New York, it’s likely that a third of them were not. Whatever the motivation behind bringing the case, a jury has looked at it carefully and come to the unanimous conclusion that he was guilty on all counts. It will be very hard to overturn on appeal unless the Judge has completely cocked up.
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May 31, 2024 4:24pm
DLC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZfxcNt_Wqc
Alan Dershowitz, Haarvard Law Professor Harvard, Democrat!!!!
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May 31, 2024 6:12pm
- DLC
  
  Your comment is awaiting moderation.
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZfxcNt_Wqc
  
  Alan Dershowitz, Haarvard Law Professor, Democrat!!!!
  
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  May 31, 2024 9:16pm
DistantObserver

The US is looking increasingly done as a nation and is rapidly heading toward bankruptcy. Just a question of when and not if the creditor nations pull the plug.

We’ll be lucky to escape with the dementia patient not initiating WWIII given the current sequence of events and the US becoming increasingly more desperate.
Simply amazing that so-called mainstream economists are sit around saying “gee I wonder where all this inflation is coming from” .
Is it not obvious?
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June 1, 2024 1:37am

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