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December 8, 2024 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 08 December 2024

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Yvette

Treaty
Why did the last Labour Government think they could assert Maori exceptionalism, a kind of an Aryan attitude, upon New Zealand – that a Maori / Crown relationship “akin [like] to a partnership” should become “co-governance” – when Maori, as we are continually told, and can easily see for ourselves, hold most of the extreme low end of most social statistics?

A 1840 speaker immediately following the reading the Tiriti o Waitangi was Te Kemara, chief of the Ngati Kawa tribe, who in part said “… No no no, I shall never say yes to your staying. Were we to be an equality, then perhaps Te Kemara would say yes. But for the Governor to be up and Te Kemara to be down – Governor high up up up, and Te Kemara down low, small, a worm, a crawler. No no no, O Governor …”

He seemed to understand what was being offered.

But Labour, Ardern and Hipkins were offering high up up up (elitism and exceptionalism) and down low, small, (low end of most social statistics) together, at the same time.

And their deal is still the same, and still unexplained cognitive dissonance
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December 8, 2024 8:00am
- pdm
  
  Tauranga District Council are into it now.
  https://nominister.wordpress.com/2024/12/07/tauranga-district-council-are-trying-to-rort-democracy-now/
  
  Thank you Hobsons Pledge for letting us know.
  
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  December 8, 2024 9:35am
- Paulus
  
  But Ardern and Hipkins only wanted Maori votes – nothing else mattered.
  They did not get it butlook at the mess it caused since !
  
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  December 8, 2024 10:39am
  - Yvette
    
    They did not get it but look at the mess it caused since!
    
    Like, granting not only “co-governance” at 3 Waters levels in the proposed Entities, but “total-governance” in the Maori Advisory Council which overlooks the Water Regulator (and still does)
    The lower Entity levels are now levelled with 3 Waters gone, so in its place is resentment and probably anger.
    And not at Labour which set up this gaslighting exercise, but at National for ‘cleaning up’ the mess.
    
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    December 8, 2024 11:17am
    - pdm
      
      Yes – Taumata Arowai has to be disbanded!!
      
      Yvette anger at National for not cleaning up the mess properly. So far they have been half-cocked.
      
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      December 8, 2024 12:04pm
      - Yvette
        
        Reappointments to the Taumata Arowai Māori Advisory Group
        Publication Date 29 AUG 2024
        Taumata Arowai–the Water Services Regulator Act
        Crown Entities Act Appointments/reappointments
        
        Pursuant to section 15 of the Taumata Arowai–the Water Services Regulator Act 2020 and section 28 of the Crown Entities Act 2004, I am pleased to appoint Riki James Ellison as the Chair of the Taumata Arowai Māori Advisory Group, for a term of three years, commencing on 29 August 2024 and ending on 29 August 2027, and reappoint Bonita Joanne Bigham as a member of the Taumata Arowai Māori Advisory Group, for a term of three years, commencing on 29 August 2024 and ending on 29 August 2027.
        https://gazette.govt.nz/notice/id/2024-go4300
        
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        December 8, 2024 2:48pm
TripeWryter

I read in The New Zealand Herald earlier that the Australian-owned BNZ has declined banking services to a small company, Girls Get Off.
Apparently to do with sex toys and other paraphernalia.
Banks – especially Aussie-owned banks – should not be trying to behave like the morality police.
It makes them look holier-than-thou, and holier-than-thou is generally the preserve of the hypocrite.
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December 8, 2024 8:08am
- imalwaysright
  
  Just wait ’til we go cashless and are forced to use digital currency.
  Slaves with invisible shackles.
  
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  December 8, 2024 9:28am
  - sirknz
    
    What could possibly go wrong with an ideologically driven government deciding what are best things for me to spend their money on?
    
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    December 8, 2024 10:50am
- peterwn
  
  Currently, there is ‘no right to banking’ yet access to banking is pretty well essential in modern society. Surely one of the objectives of setting up Kiwibank was to provide banking services to people (eg beneficiaries) that the Oz owned banks were not interested in.
  
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  December 8, 2024 9:49am
  - pdm
    
    pw – Kiwibank was nothing more than to satisfy the ego of the late Jim Anderton.
    
    A `black hole’ for taxpayers without the Capital to make an impression on the New Zealand banking scene.
    
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    December 8, 2024 10:29am
    - peterwn
      
      Yup! Welcome to MMP. Kiwibank is now politically well entrenched like SuperGoldCard that they will not go away.
      Remember the Greens secretly recording a conversation with Bill English who said that Kiwibank needs to be sold off.
      
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      December 8, 2024 11:33am
    - kiwikidsnz
      
      Andertons ego is also responsible for the Christchurch Cathedral taxpayers black hole (along with Burdon)
      
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      December 8, 2024 2:38pm
    - Jack5
      
      PDM’s …. Kiwibank was nothing more than to satisfy the ego of the late Jim Anderton …
      
      National PM Jim Bolger was also a champion of Kiwibank, and was its first chairman.
      
      You’d think hewould have been less bullish given that the Bank of New Zealand collapsed on Bolger’s first day as PM on 28 October 1990.
      
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      December 8, 2024 5:19pm
      - peterwn
        
        BNZ were doing crazy things at the time which Kiwibank has not done. There were two ways of getting a BNZ loan at the time. One was to approach the traditional branch bank manager with his hard glassy ‘I am going to say no’ look (that was the expression used in the book ‘From N to Z in 1951). They did actually lend money and their loan books were of good quality. Then there were ‘loan managers’ who operated outside the branch network who went round hard selling loans and almost ramming them down customers’ throats. Top management most probably set up that system to bypass the traditional conservative branch managers. When things crashed in 1987 the loans written by the ‘loan managers’ turned out to be rubbish and that was why BNZ was up to its neck in trouble and had to be bailed out (for the second time in its history) and sold off.
        
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        December 8, 2024 8:11pm
- Paulus
  
  Banks Hippocrites – how dare you expose the truth.
  
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  December 8, 2024 10:40am
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  Banks take moral high ground – that’s a Man Bites Dog headline.
  
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  December 8, 2024 6:01pm
David Garrett

Another awful Sunday in a closed country…thankfully my last for a while. Envying you all down there with a CHOICE regarding what you do today. Make the most of it!
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December 8, 2024 8:19am
- Scott
  
  Or you could go to church? Polynesian singing is usually very good and maybe you might get some divine inspiration? 😎
  
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  December 8, 2024 8:22am
  - David Garrett
    
    Scott: Well I might just do that…if they weren’t all such massive hypocrites…lustily singing on Sunday but lying and stealing on Monday thru Saturday.
    
    When I first came here 25 years ago one of my biggest Tongan clients said something I have never forgotten ” David, there are many religious people in Tonga but not many Christians”
    
    Sadly more true now than it was 25 years ago. And the clergy are the biggest hypocrites of them all: most have at least one mistress and several illegitimate children.
    
    All considered perfectly acceptable in the Magic Kingdom
    
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    December 8, 2024 10:42am
    - AitchW
      
      You sound a bit cynical this morning David. Everything ok?
      
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      December 8, 2024 11:03am
      - David Garrett
        
        Aitch: I’m fine thanks…just looking forward to getting out next Friday…flying, even though it’s a black Friday…iam a superstitious old coot.
        
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        December 8, 2024 12:17pm
    - Scott
      
      Yes but David, think of it this way. Maybe you don’t like the cafes and the pubs being closed on Sundays. And maybe we Christians can badly miss the mark at times.
      
      However you are safe in Tonga because of Christianity. Before Christianity they were head hunters. Literally.
      
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      December 8, 2024 2:34pm
    - Matt Long
      
      Reminds me of the joke,
      The Englishman is self made and worships his creator.
      The Welshmen prays on his knees on Sunday and preys on his neighbours during the week.
      The Scots who keep the Sabbath-and everything else they could lay their hands on.
      Then there are the Irish who never knew what they want, but are willing to fight for it;
      
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      December 8, 2024 8:10pm
- slightlyrighty
  
  Off to Pangaimotu Island with you!
  
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  December 8, 2024 8:39am
  - David Garrett
    
    Slightly: Sadly Pangaimotu is no longer a resort- destroyed in the tsumani. You can still go over there but you need to take ur own food and drink…too much of a hassle
    
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    December 8, 2024 10:33am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Surely one of those Church choirs could accommodate your baritone talents….
  otherwise:
  https://tongapocketguide.com/5-things-to-do-in-tonga-on-a-sunday/
  
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  December 8, 2024 9:06am
- lastmanstanding
  
  Lets clear this up once and for all. In February 1840 Queen Vicky didnt say to the Maori Chiefs “Boys we are going to enter into a partnership where you and I co-govern the country 50:50.”
  
  What Queen Vicky said was ” Boys I am going to govern the country to stop you lot killing and eating yourselves to extinction. In addition you can buy and sell your lands. And the best bit of all unlike the Natives in my other colonies I am going to make you British Subjects. Enjoy”.
  
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  December 8, 2024 9:11am
  - leoj
    
    What is stopping maori from compiling their own version of a Treaty Principles Bill, put them both on the ballot and let us have a vote?
    
    Why won’t they let us have a vote?
    
    Therein lies the real issue. They don’t want us to have a vote because they know what the result will be. Gotta milk the treaty even more than the rorts that have already bankrupted the country.
    
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    December 8, 2024 10:09am
  - JackRabbit
    
    That about sums it all up.
    
    I think all rational people who have read the Treaty and understand it, and also know of the history of NZ 100% agree with that. Except for the down-ticker.
    
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    December 8, 2024 10:18am
  - kowtow
    
    The govt in England wanted little or nothing to do with NZ , happy to have its interests covered from Sydney.
    
    It was literally forced into action by the latest adventures of the NZ Company sending out the Tory with William Wakefield with a commission to buy even more land than they already owned .
    
    Thus Hobson was sent to chase after him .The whole point of Article 2 was to give the Crown monopoly over land purchases. Pre empting and preventing the NZ Coy ( and any other colonists such as the French or Germans) from being the big player.
    
    The ToW cannot be seen in any context other than that of the NZ Company’s plans to colonise New Zealand .
    
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    December 8, 2024 11:13am
- Biscuit
  
  What choice, DG?
  
  I was watching Man Yoo get their beans…
  
  Voice from the Passion Pit:
  
  ‘I really think you should fetch the light of your life a Nespresso, some prettily-arranged fresh fruit – drizzled with crème fraiche, of course … and a Danish.’
  
  Implicit in that ‘request’ was a ‘H-a-r-m will befall you if you do not immediately comply’.
  
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  December 8, 2024 9:12am
  - pdm
    
    Under the thumb Biscuit – really under the thumb!!
    
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    December 8, 2024 9:38am
    - Colville
      
      Happy wife , happy life!
      
      (a saying made up by a woman to get what she wanted)
      
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      December 8, 2024 10:46am
      - Keith White
        
        …which is why bigamy carries its punishment built in…
        
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        December 8, 2024 6:31pm
- NoFax
  
  So you move to another country and want them to change for you!?! If it eases the other way around I’m not sure you would be impressed.
  Now, what were ranting about hypocrites?
  
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  December 8, 2024 9:20pm
  - Ghost
    
    And where has David even mentioned he wanted the country to change?
    
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    December 8, 2024 9:49pm
Jethrod

Stun the masses….. go to ⛪️

//
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December 8, 2024 8:22am
Yvette

Hikoi
‘I ripped that in half and chucked it away’ – Hana-Rāwhiti delivers speech after world-shaking haka.
She has been an international viral sensation over the past week after leading a world-shaking haka in Parliament’s debating chamber.

“We’ve seen our people run, cook, pōwhiri, usher, drive, walk, traffic control, police, Māori warden, banner holders, ringawera, videographers, all ages, and all different races coming together for te Tiriti o Waitangi.”

She called for the Māori in the crowd to switch to the Māori electoral roll.
“If every single Māori person registered on the Māori roll, we would have 20 automatic Māori seats in Parliament.”

Currently, there are only seven Māori seats in the House of Representatives.
Ending the speech, she said the hikoi wasn’t just for iwi Māori but for all indigenous communities across the globe.
“The world is watching us te iwi Māori, whatever we do next. All indigenous people are relying on us.
“It’s not just about us te iwi Māori, it’s about us as indigenous people liberating ourselves to Hawaiki mau, so who’s coming with us?”
https://www.teaonews.co.nz/2024/11/19/i-ripped-that-in-half-and-chucked-it-away-hana-rawhiti-delivers-speech-after-world-shaking-haka/

The Hikoi was organised by te Pati Maori [1], and outside Parliament Hana-Rāwhiti called for the Māori in the crowd to switch to the Māori electoral roll. If every single Māori person registered on the Māori roll, we would have 20 automatic Māori seats in Parliament” and at that they would be king-maker in MMP.

“The world is watching us te iwi Māori, whatever we do next. All indigenous people are relying on us” – to take back the world? Well, at least New Zealand.

Was the Hikoi a drive, as well as expressing other issues, to increase numbers on the Maori Roll? – to become king-maker?

______________
[1] “The Māori Party just used and manipulated thousands of Māori yesterday for their own pointless political stunt,” Peters said.
“They staged a protest against a piece of legislation that they already knew is not going to pass into law.”
He wrote that the organiser of the hikoi is the son of Māori Party MP Mariameno Kapa-Kingi, and the company that coordinated it, Toitu Te Tiriti, was incorporated in September by the wife of Rawiri Waititi and the daughter of Māori Party president John Tamahere.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360482519/hikoi-live-march-parliament-protest-against-treaty-principles-bill. – and others
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December 8, 2024 8:37am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  There was clearly an agenda well beyond Seymour’s ToW bill:
  
  https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/05/eru-kapa-kingi-new-zealand-maori-hikoi-protest-treaty
  
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  December 8, 2024 9:18am
- Burtland
  
  seems like labour signed their own secret treaty with maori
  – he puapua and co-governance for their votes
  but willie somehow didnt deliver (has he ever)
  now theyve skedaddled and hitched their wagon to the te pati maori pony
  
  what did they actually want at the 70 hui ?
  
  will [Mod – use correct names please] be able to deliver anything better ?
  
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  December 8, 2024 10:32am
- Paulus
  
  I think that after time the Carhoi was not a success as many people have enjoyed the so called Maori make full fools of themselves.
  Happy Christmas in English, not as some Bank is now calling it, in some irrelevent language, as Maori did not have any Christianity or Christmas until the Missionaries many years later.
  
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  December 8, 2024 10:44am
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  The ego is strong in this one.
  
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  December 8, 2024 6:04pm
trout

Another dismal day in prospect for the out-of-form Black Caps if the weather allows. A series loss after two tests is something of a comedown after the successful Indian tour. Looking back one can never be sure that wins on the sub-continent are the real deal because of the influence of bookmakers and the money involved. Pakistan have a history of throwing matches (generally one dayers), don’t know about India.
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December 8, 2024 8:45am
- Scott
  
  Trout my dear fellow. India had never lost a series at home 3-0. They have never lost 4-0 or 5-0 either. Their worst defeat at home was 2-0 I believe.
  
  To say the proud Indians deliberately threw away a test series at home because of bookmakers is a dreadful accusation.
  
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  December 8, 2024 9:37am
  - Swifty
    
    My Indian flattie, who is cricket mad and used to play with MS Dhoni in their youth, finds it all very suspicious.
    
    He says money has destroyed Indian cricket.
    
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    December 8, 2024 10:12am
- Pope Punctilious II
  
  The sentimental indulgence of a formerly great bowler is hurting NZ. Plus the captaincy hasn’t been great. And too many batters have got out to poor shots. The commentators went into raptures about the ball that hit Blundell’s off-stump – it certainly was a fine delivery, but Blundell was caught on the crease, neither forward nor back.
  
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  December 8, 2024 9:38am
  - AitchW
    
    The radio commentary on that dismissal was more measured. The impression was that a pretty standard delivery caught the batsman (yes, batsman, NOT the dreadful ‘batter’.) off guard.
    
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    December 8, 2024 10:02am
  - pdm
    
    Simple solution to this test for New Zealand – bat two days and at least another session. Say 200 overs.
    
    It can be done – it needs one big hundred, probably Williamson with 180plus and two or three more hundreds. Problem is I am not sure where they are coming from as we don’t seem to have anyone else able to put their heads down and bat and bat and bat.
    
    Bat time, bat time bat time and don’t gift wickets to T20 shots. Stay at the crease and the runs will come – he says hopefully.
    
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    December 8, 2024 10:36am
    - Jethrod
      
      Well they’ve obviously had some catching practice, so now they need a bit of batting practice.
      
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      December 8, 2024 10:45am
      - G152
        
        Just not cricket
        
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        December 8, 2024 11:21am
    - rockape
      
      Better chance of praying for two days rain.
      
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      December 8, 2024 10:54am
      - pdm
        
        Conway gone – skittled by a length ball that did not seem to do much, if any thing.
        
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        December 8, 2024 12:14pm
  - nathie
    
    Good summation and let’s not forget the Coach’s constant flip-flopping on selection choices and even dropping players that were top of their game in preceding tour matches. Grrr.
    
    And how about using a spinner on NZ’s slow pitches more often, like the great coaches of the past did? Usually a game changer!
    
    But am I a dinosaur – “Batters”?
    
    It has the same appeal as listening to the sound of finger nails being scratched down a blackboard. Noooooo! Simply dreadful.
    
    Heaven help anyone calling Batsmen “Batters” back in the day. “Batters” were those that played softball would come the scolding retort!
    
    Was there anything wrong with being called Batsmen and Batswomen?
    
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    December 8, 2024 11:08am
    - pdm
      
      I am with you re playing a spinner Nathie.
      
      What is more a proper spinner like Patel not part timers. Did Stead not see how successful Vettori was because he played every test.
      
      Williamson gone – doubt we will see the day out now.
      
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      December 8, 2024 12:17pm
    - AitchW
      
      I absolutely agree about calling those wielding the bat ‘batters’. Sadly Cricket New Zealand changed the term a few years back to protect the sensitivities of the gender police.
      
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      December 8, 2024 2:41pm
    - Don Beckett
      
      Isn’t batter that stuff they put on your fish with your fish’n’chips ?
      
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      December 8, 2024 3:33pm
  - Individual Responsibility
    
    Pope Punctilious II et al –
    
    Interesting piece of useless info –
    Evidently, every time Geoffrey Boycott scored 100 or more in a test match for England, they went on to win the test.
    
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    December 8, 2024 3:04pm
redeye

Should banks be forced to accept business from any legal operation? I say they should.
Farage got debanked in the UK, and Marc Andreessen highlighted this in his latest Rogan interview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRj9pIITwEU
And now it looks like the practice is ripe in NZ.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/kiwi-sex-toy-company-girls-get-off-claims-to-have-been-denied-a-bnz-business-account/
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December 8, 2024 8:45am
- AitchW
  
  To be fair they may have been denied an account because their business model was clearly doomed to failure. Two sides to every story and all that.
  
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  December 8, 2024 9:30am
  - rouppe
    
    Then why do banks give business accounts to bars and restaurants?
    
    A majority of those fail in the first few years.
    
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    December 8, 2024 10:02am
    - Colville
      
      Personal guarantees from Directors.
      
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      December 8, 2024 10:48am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Saw a young chicken farmer on Country Calendar who went to the bank for $1 million for an egg sorting machine. They laughed at him so he started dealing in cars and made the money that way.
      He puts out about 15,000 eggs a day.
      
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      December 8, 2024 10:58am
    - AitchW
      
      Perhaps the toy business was doomed to failure in weeks rather than years….
      
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      December 8, 2024 11:05am
      - rouppe
        
        The “toy business” has been going for years. They were just looking to switch banks.
        
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        December 8, 2024 12:45pm
      - peterwn
        
        And the usual reason to switch banks is to try and get more advantageous terms of credit. Sometimes banks or particular groups can be so pig headed that a customer needs to switch to get a better deal. There was a long established company which avoided borrowing money or it it had to would clear the loan as quickly as possible. In the early 1980’s loan managers from that bank were trying to ram loans down the company’s throats but the company dis not need the money. In the early 2000’s the company wanted an overdraft accommodation but could not a reasonable deal from the bank despite having being a customer for over 100 years. The company could get a good deal from another bank so swapped banks. So that would be why the customer was trying to swap banks.
        
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        December 8, 2024 5:44pm
  - redeye
    
    Sorry the link didn’t work.
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/kiwi-sex-toy-company-girls-get-off-claims-to-have-been-denied-a-bnz-business-account/XYE5SS7GMVF5FOPK72NAEGLS5U/
    The article says.
    
    An email from the bank supplied to the Herald stated that BNZ wouldn’t “be able to progress [the] application as the business operations are outside of BNZ policy”.
    
    Why would it be of concern to the bank if they were doomed to failure? I don’t believe they weren’t asking for finance.
    Also according to the article they are quite successful.
    
    The online business, which went on to win People’s Choice at the Tauranga Business Awards that year, has since expanded its operations to Australia, with plans to continue growing overseas.
    
    The brand has also built a successful presence on social media: at the time of writing, the Girls Get Off Instagram boasts a following of almost 120,000, while a private Facebook community has close to 40,000 members.
    
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    December 8, 2024 12:25pm
  - peterwn
    
    Banks are not at risk with pure transactional accounts since they can dishonour transactions that would put an account in the red. An exception would be money laundering risk and if banks are finding compliance an issue they should negotiate with the government on an expedient way to manage the risk. Agreed that customers have no right to expect overdrafts, mortgages or other forms of credit.
    
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    December 8, 2024 5:30pm
- Ghost
  
  We know it’s important our investments have a positive social impact, so it’s not appropriate for us invest our customers’ money in companies that get more than 10% of their revenue from gambling operations and services. We’ve also explicitly excluded investments in companies that earn more than 10% of their revenue from the production and distribution of adult entertainment.
  
  BNZ
  
  That is their decision. They do not and should not be forced to take on customers or loan money to ventures that go against their company policy. She also complains that they can’t put adult adverts on Facebook. Again, facebooks decision on what they allow to advertise on their platform.
  
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  December 8, 2024 12:54pm
  - kiwikidsnz
    
    It’s a business account, not a BNZ investment so nothing to do with their “policy”.
    
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    December 8, 2024 2:42pm
NK

I choose to laugh at Manchester United today.
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December 8, 2024 8:46am
- Biscuit
  
  Me too, NK.
  
  Good to see Enzed’s own Chris Wood put in the goal that made Old Trafford the ‘Theatre of Screams’…
  
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  December 8, 2024 9:04am
3-coil

Wellington city council still tearing itself apart….this time over the overdue demolition of the decrepit old city-to-sea bridge in the cbd.

I thought the far left/Green Party sisters of the WCC would not have hesitated. If the 3 architects (?) of the bridge had designed it post #MeToo, it probably would never have been built at all….but the current leftist councillors seem okay with this. Hypocrites.
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December 8, 2024 8:48am
- PurplePen
  
  They’re all hypocrites that ilk. Classic example is they complained that the meridian energy brooklyn hill windmill would destroy the wellington skyline when meridian went to build it. Then complained when meridian wanted to take it down 20 years later saying it was iconic on the wellington skyline.
  
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  December 8, 2024 9:43am
- AitchW
  
  Presumably they’ll replace it with a gold plated arawhiti for the whanau to hikoi on replete with images of assorted taniwha which will burden the rate payer with a debt of several millions.
  Then of course there’s the opening ceremony with waiata and powhiri carried out by Kaumatua from local iwi for a modest koha. (Kuia will be in the kihini doing the hard mahi, preparing kai.)
  
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  December 8, 2024 9:50am
  - Burtland
    
    masterful use of maori 👏
    
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    December 8, 2024 10:39am
    - AitchW
      
      Churr.
      
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      December 8, 2024 11:06am
Bridgenag

CENSORSHIP IS NOW HARD-WIRED
By: John Strand

https://open.substack.com/pub/rwmalonemd/p/censorship-is-now-hard-wired?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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December 8, 2024 8:57am
Bridgenag

penny for your thoughts
there is a fight for civilization. choose your fighter.

also
Must watch videos….

“battle lines have been drawn on who gets to decide what sort of civilization we are to inhabit, what license and agency we may possess, and who gets to do what to whom and at what cost and accountability.”

“give people who look like me license to harass, attack, loot, steal, and assault or we’ll go wild and harass, attack, loot, steal, and assault.
this is the proposition.
where can this possibly go other than bad?”

https://open.substack.com/pub/boriquagato/p/penny-for-your-thoughts?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

also
the penny drops?
assessing the penny trial and jury deliberations

https://open.substack.com/pub/boriquagato/p/the-penny-drops?r=1aj1bv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email
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December 8, 2024 8:57am
Yvette

Guest Post: Abraham Lincoln and the Treaty of Waitangi

“Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth, upon this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal –”

“All men are created equal” is wrong of course, we are born differently abled and into different circumstances- and what about women? But at that time, it was a resounding affirmation of equality before the law and a shining beacon for enlightened government everywhere.

The founding document for NZ is not a remarkable statement of the principles of good government like the 1776 American Declaration of Independence but the 1840 Treaty of Waitangi between the British Crown, and 500 something Māori chiefs.
We call it a treaty, but strictly it isn’t, treaties can only be between sovereign countries and New Zealand in 1840 was a collection of warring Māori tribes plus a few European settlers. It’s an agreement or contract.
https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2024/12/guest_post_abraham_lincoln_and_the_treaty_of_waitangi.html

“It’s an agreement or contract” – or perhaps more bluntly and accurately: it is a simple real estate contract.
Not exactly a nation’s Founding Document. And not a profound far-sighted document that is a philosophy to equal “all men are created equal“

Which begs the question: Aside from the Maori/Crown real estate agreement, what do the other 80 percent of New Zealanders have to base their national rules and aspirations on?
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December 8, 2024 9:03am
- Quail
  
  Re yesterday’s Abraham Lincoln post.
  These matters are largely related to money,
  The “ pakeha elite “ along with Maori elite are both focused on extracting as much money as they can from taxpayers.
  The treaty wars are filling elite pockets ,with little benefit filtering down to those who are not in that elite.
  This is a financial rort of monumental proportion and as is usually the case there are winners and losers — taxpayers!
  
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  December 8, 2024 10:39am
- pdm
  
  Yvette at a friends house they had a little thingy on the toilet wall – it read:
  
  All men are created equal.
  But it is what they are equal to that really counts!!’
  
  Note: quote may not be 100% verbatim because it was 60 odd years ago.
  
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  December 8, 2024 10:41am
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA-_BD9cHow
Why the Philippines’ Government is at War With Itself.
This is a constitutional design flaw. The US had a similar flaw until the 12th Amendment was passed after the chaotic 1800 election. It is never a good idea to have the president and vice president be from opposite parties. This creates a strong incentive for each of them to take out the other to seize more power.
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December 8, 2024 9:06am
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zxu0_AbIWrw
Why South Korea’s President Declared Martial Law
On Tuesday night, South Korea’s President declared martial law only to backtrack a mere 6 hours later. So in this video we’ll explain what happened, how it all fell apart so quickly and what this means for both the President and South Korea going forward. [This probably won’t make him president of the century.]
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December 8, 2024 9:07am
MCōs

Anyone who’s ever had to battle their way through this nightmare intersection at Warkworth may be interested in this article.
The locals are fuming that a proposed solution has been put on the back burner
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/535794/improving-notorious-warkworth-intersection-shelved-again
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December 8, 2024 9:16am
- All_on_Red
  
  ‘upgrades of the Hill Street intersection included at least five new speed bumps and three sections of cycleway’
  There is no room for all of that. It’s tricky enough without all that distraction. It certainly doesn’t need speed humps either. Good to see they are going to redesign it.
  
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  December 8, 2024 9:40am
  - MCōs
    
    Looking at the general arrangement plan I don’t think the raised crossings and cycleways would be the real issue, but the short piece of roadway between the two roundabouts and there’s probably not much can be done about that.
    Maybe that rest area with toilets could be relocated somewhere else!
    
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    December 8, 2024 10:05am
    - All_on_Red
      
      The guy complaining is a well known cycle zealot who wants to spend everyone else’s money.
      There are no other cycleways to connect up to. They cant get access through some of the Farms and there is no room on the side of the roads heading to that intersection- the road is narrow as it is.
      They have this dream of going to Snells Beach/Matakana but its too difficult.
      They have been trying to sort that for years
      And everybody is going so slow that raised crossings aren’t needed. In fact they will just clog the intersection up even more. You want people to move through smoothly not stop and start over a series of bumps.
      Good to see they are redesigning it and its certainly a lot quieter since the Matakana Link Rd was built.
      
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      December 8, 2024 10:31am
      - All_on_Red
        
        Actually that article you linked to has been edited since you posted it…
        
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        December 8, 2024 10:43am
- Hugh Jarse
  
  Locals in a number of localities might well be fuming that worthwhile projects that could save injuries and lives cannot be got on with now because of the ineptitude of the previous administration in spending money for no or little return and cancelling roading projects under pressure from their coalition partners, the Greens.
  
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  December 8, 2024 10:15am
Maggy Wassilieff

I don’t envy our Government MPs who are dealing with the care of these young repeat offenders.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/youths-missing-from-bootcamp-found-as-police-respond-to-alleged-carjacking-machete-wielding-teens-in-hamilton/37YJLASANJG47P34RLEURSJGI4/
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December 8, 2024 9:32am
- Inandout
  
  Maggy, there is a solution but not for a moment would Luxon approve it. Consider a camp in a remote part of NZ, protected by barbed wire and absolutely no communication with the outside world. A minimum of 6 months under strictly controlled conditions would be the minimum, and if they rebelled then a further 6 months. We can but dream.
  
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  December 8, 2024 9:45am
  - Ghost
    
    Locking them away out of sight isn’t really a solution, just as prison isn’t. A solution would be to find the kids who are at risk of going off the rails and find solutions for them. For some kids it would be understanding school is not for them and getting them into a training scheme. Showing them that gangs are not a life to live. We need to find a way to reach these children before they go down this path.
    
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    December 8, 2024 10:01am
    - rouppe
      
      That’s what parents are for.
      
      And do you not remember the furore when the state went in to do just that with a new born baby because the mother was a drug user involved with gangs
      
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      December 8, 2024 10:05am
      - AitchW
        
        Some parents are unwilling, incapable or unmotivated to raise decent kids.
        God, some of them are incapable of raising houseplants…
        
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        December 8, 2024 11:10am
      - Ghost
        
        Yeah, let’s keep doing the same thing expecting the results to change. Or let’s admit some of these parents don’t know how to care for themselves let alone children. Start giving new parents the tools to be a parent. Classes on how to care for a child, how to manage finances, clean, cook.
        
        Start to understand some children need a different system than what our education system gives them, help them learn a trade. Start to realize there what we’ve been doing isn’t working and find other solutions
        
        We need to start right from day one, get that pregnant mother and partner into classes, bring back the full plunket support that we used to have.
        
        We can either look for solutions and try to stop this decline or just do nothing, and watch the continued decline
        
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        December 8, 2024 11:18am
      - rouppe
        
        Sure, that’d be nice.
        
        Classes have been available for quite some time. They just don’t go.
        
        So out of curiosity, what is your proposal to “get that pregnant mother (forget the partner, he’s long scarpered) into classes”?
        
        Drag them? Chain them to the desk? How are you going to force that attendance, when the last 6 years they have not attended school for at least 50% of the time.
        
        Rose tinted solutions sound good, but just like boot camp participants that scarper and attack people with machetes to steal their cars, there has to be a conscious desire for that improvement before any intervention will work. For the most part, I don’t think the desire is there.
        
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        December 8, 2024 12:54pm
      - Paulus
        
        But their parents and grandparents have been there before them.
        It is hereditory over generations, as result changes don’t and cannot exist.
        Not nice. but cannot perceive any way – money is not the only answer – it goes much deeper before getting to money.
        
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        December 8, 2024 1:41pm
    - kevn
      
      Ghost… Good to see you have ideas.
      
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      December 8, 2024 10:10am
    - Ghost
      
      I saw this advertised the other day, has anyone watched it?
      
      https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/ram-raid-mums
      
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      December 8, 2024 10:13am
    - Hugh Jarse
      
      Agree with your 10.01 post 100% Ghost
      
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      December 8, 2024 10:17am
    - Nobby2
      
      Ghost; Find the kids who are at risk – find solutions for them – find a way to reach these children. Not a mention of what you would do to FIX the problem.
      
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      December 8, 2024 1:29pm
      - kiwikidsnz
        
        stop it at source: anyone on any taxpayer benefit required to have a IUD/vasectomy
        
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        December 8, 2024 2:45pm
      - Ghost
        
        Many solutions would have to be individual to the cases, that would be up to the government and case workers to come up with. I’m sure you have ideas right? And actually I have given some suggestion, including making those on welfare conditional for that welfare to take parenting, etc classes. But we can all just pretend that what we are doing will one day work and just keep bitching day after day about the growing crime rate, truancy rate, etc. Or we can realise it’s not working. As I said some kids will be better I out of traditional school learning a trade. Some kids will be better off in foster homes than getting the living shit beaten out of them day after day. If you want to turn this around then it needs to start at the beginning, so by all means share your ideas to stop it
        
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        December 8, 2024 4:02pm
  - Ian Boag
    
    @InOut
    
    Why only six months? The trouble is that eventually they will be released. I doubt that they would emerge as dutiful citizens …..
    
    Might be a bit hard to find staff for the place too.
    
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    December 8, 2024 10:18am
    - All_on_Red
      
      Lets give up and do nothing then
      //
      
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      December 8, 2024 10:35am
      - Ian Boag
        
        Not what I said.
        
        I am dubious about the possibility that this sort of thing would achieve reform. It looks a bit like the old Borstal and we all know how well that worked.
        
        I doubt whether anything we might do will have 100% success. Particularly at a time when jobs are hard to find for anyone with few qualifications and crime beckons.
        
        It would be good to see some sort of cost/benefit analysis between the cost of trying to help and the benefit of a criminal life avoided. I have no idea how you would do that or who is competent to do it. We might find that 1/10 pays its way … or that 10/10 doesn’t ….
        
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        December 8, 2024 1:39pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        There are sarc tags…
        Your comment was all negative- still is, and just what we would expect from a Troll- which seems to be your thing
        Hey, maybe a Capital Gains Tax might fix it!
        Lol
        
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        December 8, 2024 1:45pm
    - Inandout
      
      IB, being isolated would provide little means of escaping so they would be faced with either learning life skills or pure boredom. When we had CMT a great majority went on to make the most of life, and those who bucked the system went to Ardmore. There will always be young rebels but unless shown another route how will they ever choose?
      
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      December 8, 2024 1:23pm
      - David Garrett
        
        Inand: I would love to see some stats on reoffending among soldiers who had done a stint in Ardmore…I suspect the numbers would be very small…but I very much doubt they would ever be released…”doesn’t fit the narrative” old boy
        
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        December 8, 2024 5:28pm
  - alwyn.a
    
    I think that is a wonderful idea. Not for the youths but for Parliament.
    We could pack up all the MPs and ship them out of here. Auckland Islands perhaps?
    
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    December 8, 2024 11:27am
- Pineapple Lumps
  
  Maggy agreed it is almost an impossible task.
  
  There is a problem solving technique known as the 5-whys. You state the problem, then keep drilling down asking the Why question until you reach the root of the problem. If the root of the problem is found then it is possible to come up with solutions that genuinely will prevent the problem from occurring in the first place.
  
  Solutions that address the immediate problem, corrective actions, are often very expensive and do not prevent the issue from reoccurring. Boot camps are the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. They will be very expensive and largely will not work. But better to try and stop some of these young people continuing on a life of crime. But it must be recognised as an inferior solution that does nothing to fix the root cause.
  
  For me, one of the indicators of success in life is having a stable, committed Mother and Father relationship. Why don’t we see more efforts going into promoting this as a worthy goal to be achieved and support programmes that will contribute to this?
  
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  December 8, 2024 12:03pm
  - artemisia
    
    Back in the day National’s social investment approach included a plan to disband school deciles and redirect the very considerable funding to at risk kids and their families.
    
    The Young Parent Payment scheme was set up and I believe still operating. Teen parents get structured ‘parenting’ so their children – and the teen parents – get a decent head start in life.
    
    Fences at the top of the cliff.
    
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    December 8, 2024 1:19pm
  - Paulus
    
    Which Prime Ministers destroyed the trusted Family Unit in New Zealand.
    Two guesses only, and both women.
    Cannot be retrieved now.
    
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    December 8, 2024 1:43pm
- Ra Henare
  
  A reaction would be to get rid of the wet liberals who want the Gummint to solve societies problems.
  
  Government solutions to social problems rarely, rarely work.
  
  Check western Democracies, suffering the “”you poor thing”” disease versus increasing poverty and youth crime.
  
  Then check Non Western Countries and see the lower levels of poverty(and decreasing) and low levels of youth crime.
  
  NZ Removing societies ability to control its kids,
  eg the Anti Smacking BS and allowing Kids to wag school with no adult sanction.
  
  Has led NZ society(and other western societies) to deteriorate before our eyes.
  
  Great resets are needed in Western democracies!!!!!
  Applause to the resets in Argentina and hopefully A merry car.
  
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  December 8, 2024 3:04pm
Chuck Bird

Our Foreign Minister and PM should visit Gaza and they might understand the difficulty the IDF has when Hamas uses Plastinians as human shields.
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December 8, 2024 9:37am
- Cassandra
  
  While I think it was silly of Luxton to say that Bibi would be arrested if he came to NZ I also think that he does not need to get into this argument. An anodyne statement acknowledging both aspects, deploring the Hamas atrocities and imploring Israel to exercise care is enough. And defund UNWRA. And tell the Greens that they are a pack of anti Semites.
  
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  December 8, 2024 10:02am
  - rouppe
    
    I think that statement was in response to a journalist demanding “promises”. Again.
    
    Luxon needs to be coached on how to tell journalists to stay in their lane.
    
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    December 8, 2024 10:47am
    - AitchW
      
      Peters could offer him some ideas about how to deal with hostile interrogations.
      
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      December 8, 2024 11:11am
    - Ghost
      
      Yeah, he was asked the question in the post cabinet presser. He replied that as supporters of the ICC we are obligated. It’s a nothing statement that kiwibloggers will blow up. Netanyahu knows this, meetings with any of these countries will just take place in israel now
      
      For anyone who wants to see how countries responded
      
      https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/21/world-reacts-to-icc-arrest-warrants-for-israels-netanyahu-gallant
      
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      December 8, 2024 11:43am
    - Paulus
      
      “Stay in their lane” – how nicely put
      I would classify any real comment to “Get…..”
      
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      December 8, 2024 1:45pm
  - PurplePen
    
    At lunch yesterday it was being explained to me by a recent immigrant from Israel of all places who has renounced theit Israel citizenship why they voted the Green Party. It was because they were the only party that took a hard line on support, I think it was ‘support’ for Palestine. And then something about NZ not abiding by a ruling from the international court on Israel’s actions and then something about capitalism and colonialism being bad and that in the East they’re all taught how progressive and open the West was it is and that those in the East should strive to be progressive etc. The lunch companion is deeply disappointed in this government’s stance on the whole thing. I didn’t really have a good enough grasp of the current issues in the Levant to argue or discuss. But I didn’t like the anti colonialism attitude. It wasn’t until after that I did note they had chosen to come to one of those horrible colonialist capitalist countries and not somewhere like Ghana.
    
    I did point out that you’re wasting you vote as any majority in any democratic country is going to vote with their back pocket and won’t care two hoots about the Levant.
    
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    December 8, 2024 11:02am
  - G152
    
    Luxon in his way to waffle at various ‘conferences’ might well be cautious as to who he insults when he may well become an involuntary guest in that country…
    
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    December 8, 2024 11:30am
  - Ra Henare
    
    You do realise that defunding UNWRA (because 10 employees out of 10,000 were identified as terrorists).
    It would lead to thousands more needless deaths in Palestine.
    
    Or do you support genocide?
    
    The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) is a relief and human development agency that provides essential services to millions of registered Palestine refugees in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip. Without UNRWA food and medical supplies, Palestinians will die at a faster rate.
    
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    December 8, 2024 3:11pm
    - All_on_Red
      
      Wow
      Your hatred of Jews really makes you gullible and blind
      
      2 3
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      December 8, 2024 6:29pm
      - Ra Henare
        
        You throw an insult at me that is both stupid and uninformed.
        
        I quote a fact and you throw emotion.
        
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        December 9, 2024 4:29am
- MCōs
  
  Maybe you should visit Gaza, Mister Chuck
  
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  December 8, 2024 10:27am
- kiwimike
  
  Maybe all the heads of parties.
  
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  December 8, 2024 10:34am
Hugh Jarse

Maggy, The likelihood of turning all of these offenders around was always low. But that doesn’t mean it’s not worth trying, it’s worth the effort with young people in potential reduced offending that has a very human face a lot of the time in injuries, death and property loss. I am not sure what the alternative is that Labour, the Greens, TPM and the media propose ?, imprisonment, reduced sentences, home D, no detention, state care.

I recall about 20-30 years ago, a number of government agencies in Christchurch started sharing their clients names with each other and identified or realised that the majority of their clientele were also clientele of other government agencies, crime and benefit abuse and drug dealing was committed by a small group of offenders causing harm way out of proportion with their size. Concerted effort to turn those people around would have paid dividends in spades and I think that’s what Bill English was implementing prior to the 2017 election, targeted response to an evidence based identified need.

It’s all politics of course, Labour, the Greens and TPM all looking to puddle in the same voter pond by trying to be seen to be more rad than the other, and all the time alienating themselves from the centre and not addressing the need in any sort of rational way.
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December 8, 2024 9:55am
- pdm
  
  Even with those mentioned above as going off the rails success rate is still around the 70% mark.
  
  Not bad for a first pilot but still a fair way to go.
  
  Better than anything seen period 2018 to 2023.
  
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  December 8, 2024 10:46am
Pineapple Lumps

Now that the media are critically reviewing Government programmes, I am looking forward to seeing their review of the Mongrel Mob Drug Rehab programme in the Hawkes Bay.

Perhaps we might also get a review of the progress being made at Ihaumato given the investment made in that too.

What about the report on the Tuhoi management of the Urewera National Park?

So many areas worthy of their skills of critical investigative journalism.

Nec minute we will be hearing more about their woes, job losses, the inability to compete with internet leviathan’s. It’s like listening to a drunk complaining about their headache!!!
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December 8, 2024 9:58am
- David Garrett
  
  Pineapple: What has happened to te Urewera is an absolute tragedy…in five years time it will be effectively closed to the public. Last time I was there the access road from the North was in a dreadful state. And that was four or five years ago.
  
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  December 8, 2024 10:51am
  - Pineapple Lumps
    
    Perhaps one of the best examples of “by maori, for maori, better for all NZers” in action. But there is no reason why the tribe previously found practicing military manoeuvres in this National park would want to deter visitors is there?
    
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    December 8, 2024 11:32am
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      Time to start insisting that beneficiaries in Tuhoiland attend regular looking for work & upskilling sessions in Taneatua, on pain of losing some or all of their benefit.
      
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      December 8, 2024 6:17pm
  - Hugh Jarse
    
    It will be New Zealand largest outdoor cannabis growing operation.
    
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    December 8, 2024 1:06pm
- Jack5
  
  Pineapple Lumps’s … Now that the media are critically reviewing Government programmes ….
  
  What happened to the Coalition’s critical review that voters expected of the media? The critical review of the Left bias of State TV and State radio, and of taxpayer funds subsidising newspapers and Leftist web sites?
  
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  December 8, 2024 11:16am
  - Pineapple Lumps
    
    Our politicians seem to feel the need to maintain some form of relationship with the Propaganda division of The Party. Personally I think they would be better calling it out for what it is, especially every time they whine about their commercial downfall.
    
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    December 8, 2024 11:35am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      The Nats need to take a close look at how effectively the Maori Party used Social Media to mobilise the troops and joe & jane Public to the recent hikoi.
      
      Harnessing social media as a tool to connect with wider – and younger – audiences is “a duty”, Kapa-Kingi says.
      
      “For generations our story has been told by other people and mistold … when we’re controlling the narrative … and owning it through social media, its more likely our people will be part of the story as opposed to an observer of it,” he says.
      
      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/dec/05/eru-kapa-kingi-new-zealand-maori-hikoi-protest-treaty
      
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      December 8, 2024 12:41pm
      - keepcalmcarryon
        
        My Facebook feed had a bunch of pro hikoi random posts and I’m not a member of any online political pages – someone spent big money pushing it.
        It took valuable time blocking and reporting them for misinformation.
        
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        December 8, 2024 5:28pm
imalwaysright

Maybe I misheard a tv1 reporter say that the upcoming memorial service for the victims of the White Island eruption has a budget of $4,000,000 !
Hopefully.
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December 8, 2024 11:05am
- Handyman
  
  It was for the memorial itself, but still $4m?
  What’s the bet it involves a lot of sacred carving of sacred logs.
  
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  December 8, 2024 1:25pm
- Paulus
  
  No, I would expect $4,000 anything more is unjust.
  
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  December 8, 2024 1:48pm
- Ghost
  
  Here is the story, it starts at around 5.30. What she says is this year they have raised $46,000 that is going to a memorial. The memorial will cost around $4 million
  
  https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/one-news-at-6pm/episodes/s2024-e342
  
  Mark Inman Is fundraising to raise the money for the memorial.
  
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  December 8, 2024 2:13pm
  - imalwaysright
    
    Thanks.
    It must be an impressive structure, hopefully it is not to finance an opportunity for Adern to attend the unveiling.
    Condolences and sympathy to the victims, but the scale of this plan seems unnecessary and a little disingenuous.
    
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    December 8, 2024 3:47pm
    - Ghost
      
      Last I read the Erebus memorial was over $5 million now. Pike mine memorial track says $10 million. Guess memorials are expensive.
      
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      December 8, 2024 4:13pm
AitchW

My old school has a long standing relationship with te Urewera. The 1st formers had a week long tramp there every May and the 4th formers spent 2 weeks there cutting and maintaining track, supervised by the 6th formers who’d been accredited UE every December.
I imagine that relationship is now long gone.
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December 8, 2024 11:15am
Jack5

Quiet Sunday topic …

From Asia’s intense farming, expect more waves of disease to sweep the world, Covid style.

Examples –

Duck farming –

https://youtu.be/5jzvgOFnc9w?si=qi78vmY7hMO_f-dk

Dog farming –

https://youtu.be/yM5yWkY5LP0?si=grD55cknXMz72_Mu

Fox farming –

https://youtu.be/kpgIob2Loiw?si=haW1ED67_D_evGiA
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December 8, 2024 11:21am
- sungsamning
  
  On about day three in Korea, I had a walk around the neighbour hood. Along a road in the rice paddies, there were a number of dog cages. The penny didn’t drop until much later. Near an English academy near Seoul, there was a dog farm. One could hear them barking.
  
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  December 8, 2024 6:58pm
rangitoto

Interesting that the Hamas attack on Israel has led to the fall of the Assad regime and a strategic loss for Iran and Russia.
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December 8, 2024 11:44am
- Ra Henare
  
  What are you smoking there Rangitoto??
  
  Strategic loss?
  Would be great to see the evidence you base your comment on.
  
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  December 8, 2024 3:15pm
Yvette

‘Forged in fire’: Co-leader Chlöe Swarbrick on the Greens’ challenging year
Surrounded by history, at the end of her first year as co-leader, Chlöe Swarbrick talks up the party’s evolution, her lofty goal of turning the Greens into the largest political force on the left, and reflects on a 2024 that has brought a laundry list of challenges.
“I feel incredibly proud of our team and how I think through some challenging times, we’ve really stuck by our values and continue to put the things that we really care about at the forefront, and also continue to hold this government’s feet to the fire.”
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/535926/forged-in-fire-co-leader-chloe-swarbrick-on-the-greens-challenging-year

But then, as the article does admit further down –
Since the start of the year, the Greens have had to deal with the arrest and resignation of Golriz Ghahraman, the referral of Julie Anne Genter to the privileges committee for yelling at National’s Matt Doocey, and the drawn-out saga of Darleen Tana that led to the Greens being the first party to use the party-hopping legislation, despite its previous opposition to the bill.

– the fire was self inflicted, so what of Chlöe’s lofty goal turning the Greens into the largest political force on the left
– up in smoke?
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December 8, 2024 12:09pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  This is worth a read. Horrific.
  
  https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360511571/green-jobs-guarantee-and-ministry-green-works-green-partys-new-vision-nz
  
  “It said a climate redress claim should be brought if the value of settlement assets had been reduced due to climate change or the Government’s response to climate change.”
  
  So if the Green Party policy bankrupts dairy farmers, they get nothing. If Maori are affected they are compensated.
  
  The proposals here are on a scale of lunacy that you would not see in any country. Even in places like Zimbabwe and South Africa.
  
  Yet the media excitedly reports on them as if they are serious.
  
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  December 8, 2024 12:40pm
  - rouppe
    
    the party said a new Future Workforce Agency would ensure employment in sustainable industries.
    
    Didn’t Pol Pot do that? Took all those useless intellectuals and gave them “green jobs” in the rice paddies?
    
    11 0
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    December 8, 2024 1:10pm
    - Keith White
      
      And then his enforcers turned them into fertilizer.
      
      5 1
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      December 8, 2024 6:33pm
  - Paulus
    
    At the same time the new elected Tauranga Council are going to vote on Monday to Maoriise three main Council Committees, by including three unelected members, with overall voting powers, not expected except for Maori.
    At your peril Councillors !
    
    10 0
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    December 8, 2024 1:52pm
    - Ra Henare
      
      Would be nice to reference some facts there Paulus.
      
      https://nominister.wordpress.com/2024/12/08/i-have-a-reply-from-tauranga-mayor-mahe-drysdale/
      
      Committees have limited delegations so major decisions will always be made or signed off by Council that only contains elected members.
      
      3 1
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      December 8, 2024 3:19pm
  - Pope Punctilious II
    
    No Chloe, we need FEWER ministries, not more.
    
    4 0
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    December 8, 2024 5:57pm
Chris Nisbet

“Those who continue to promote the combustion of fossil fuels in the open air without permanent carbon capture & storage are, in my view, committing a crime against humanity.” – Rod Carr.

It’s pretty difficult for me to believe that we’re going to get rational, objective, recommendations from the head of the CCC when he has views like this.
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December 8, 2024 12:16pm
- Pineapple Lumps
  
  Question for Rod Carr and other climate alarmists:
  
  At one stage in the history of the earth, the fossils that made fossil fuels were living beings in the earths biosphere. The earth was at that time more abundant with life. As we consume these fuels and their molecular components are absorbed back into the biosphere why would they not contribute to an earth more abundant with life than a mass extinction event?
  
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  December 8, 2024 1:02pm
  - Benedict Yu
    
    That is easy to answer. Petroleum and coal formed over tens or hundreds of millions of years. In contrast, the carbon released from their combustion has been released over a couple of hundred years, with most of it occurring in the last 70 years.
    
    While the mean temperature of the earth has been higher then today, the pace of change is unprecedented during the time of modern humans, which is only about 200,000 years, or a bit less than that.
    
    Some regions and species will benefit from climate change…. milder winters, more abundant rainfall, and expanding crop production zones. Other regions will suffer droughts and heat waves.
    
    IMO climate change is not controversial. Climate change mitigation policies are controversial. For New Zealand to impoverish the country, in a belief that it will make any difference to global mean temperatures, is absurd.
    
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    December 8, 2024 2:01pm
    - Ra Henare
      
      Remove the income opportunities from Climate Change hysteria(ie activists) and the problem will resolve itself!!!
      
      Ie no more Climate conference attendees funded by government
      
      No more grants for research in to anything related to man made climate change.
      
      No more climate change committees, commissions.
      
      Fine any climate change protestors for disrupting public life.
      
      I love the ?German? Approach to those glueing their hands to the road. Dig that bit of road up, leave it glued to the protestors hands and then fine them the cost of the roadworks..
      
      https://www.euronews.com/2023/04/24/police-use-drill-to-free-activists-hand-during-climate-protest-in-germany
      
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      December 8, 2024 3:27pm
    - Pineapple Lumps
      
      The speed of release is a good factor to suggest. However, to say it is easy to answer my question is a massive simplification or extraordinary hubris. Your theory on millions of years for fossil fuels to be created is not a fact it is just a theory. The alternative, is a mass extinction event, aka a global flood which most cultures have a story about and potentially was caused by impact of a massive meteor – also science shows this has happened. Life submerged rapidly and deeply under sediment precluded the decaying effects of oxygen and created the pressure, heat required to produce fossil fuels.
      
      Either way no-one truely knows the ability of the biosphere to cope with these molecules being re-released. My bet is the biospheres ability to self regulate is superior to our ability to model what is likely to happen. We saw similar extremist modelling prior to covid – successfully creating mass panic and fear – enabling many people to be manipulated in ways they wouldnt have thought possible.
      
      The greatest risk to humanity, controllable by humanity, is humanity. Weapons we have invented pose the greatest threat of the next mass extinction event.
      
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      December 8, 2024 6:38pm
- artemisia
  
  Of course some of the victims of that crime against humanity will be actual humans who freeze to death.
  
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  December 8, 2024 1:14pm
- Chris Nisbet
  
  If Net Zero zealots get their way the world will find out just how brutal and short life was before we took advantage of fossil fuels. Thank goodness it won’t happen. – Chris Nisbet.
  
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  December 8, 2024 2:06pm
greybeard

The commentators for the cricket test are rubbish: they talk-up the players, and next thing you know a wicket falls.
Talk for the sake of talk.
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December 8, 2024 12:55pm
- Colville
  
  That is called the commentators curse!
  
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  December 8, 2024 1:14pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  Can someone who knows about cricket explain how New Zealand beat India so decisively in India, yet gets thrashed by England in New Zealand?
  
  Is this just part of the randomness of sports, or is there a more profound explanation? 🙂
  
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  December 8, 2024 2:05pm
  - greybeard
    
    When India is involved take all results with a large pinch of salt.
    
    6 1
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    December 8, 2024 2:20pm
vand

Blackcaps needed 524 to win last time I looked – a shoe in with three day left? Well, proper batting technique would help 58-3 – Sadly will be over by 5pm probably. A second consecutive humiliation. No doubt Conway Southee and co will be hoping for a third reprieve from the cut.
I had a ticket but went to church instead and prayed
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December 8, 2024 12:57pm
Ghost

This is a short clip that shows the benefit of Hunter Biden getting a pardon. Well done Joe, I now think you made the best decision for the USA with this pardon.

https://youtube.com/shorts/J2ba9PypZmU?si=13uya6UYhEGQhmYF
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December 8, 2024 1:07pm
- kiwikidsnz
  
  For ethical consistency on the reasons he gave for pardoning his son, Biden should also pardon Trump.
  
  6 1
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  December 8, 2024 2:48pm
Ghost

At least eight U.S. telecom firms and dozens of countries have been impacted this week by what a top White House official called a Chinese hacking campaign that has also raised concerns about the security of text messaging.

Article

I also see that Australian journalist Ross Coulthart says his sources have confirmed the drones over New Jersey and other countries are Chinese. Tim Burchett has said it is either individuals, the Chinese or the USA military over New Jersey. It won’t be individuals, they’re too big, too organised.
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December 8, 2024 1:27pm
lifesgood

What a disgrace TV 1 news is. Their leading item tonight was a completely one sided view of boot camps, absolutely no balance at all. You would think the channel was funded by Labour and the Greens. It was shameless and I’m furious.
6 1
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December 8, 2024 6:08pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360514681/little-firecracker-motorcycle-club-head-pays-tribute-three-riders-killed-crash

Where is the name and photo of the person who killed these 3 people, by driving on the wrong side of the road ?
4 0
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December 8, 2024 7:09pm
- Ghost
  
  No one has been charged yet. Let the police do their job
  
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  December 8, 2024 7:17pm

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