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October 24, 2025 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 24 October 2025

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CJames

There was a good article by Jerry Coyne earlier this week about how evolutionary science is under threat in Oz because of lawsuits by aboriginal groups against scientists.
https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2025/10/20/the-sad-fate-of-human-evolutionary-biology-in-australia/
The best paragraph it it was:
“Before 1967, “Aboriginal” was a legal class with restricted rights. To avoid stigma, many mixed-descent Australians kept their forager ancestry a secret. But as membership criteria relaxed, and additional rights and privileges granted, more people publicly claimed forager ancestry. The Indigenous population exploded and is still growing faster than birth rates can explain. This is the result of people joining the class as adults, sometimes inspired by family legends or personal conviction. Also notable is that most Indigenous-class Australians marry non-Indigenous-class partners, but 90% of children from these unions are assigned Indigenous at birth. Archaeologist Josephine Flood observes that “Many people who identify as Aboriginal have white skin, blue eyes, narrow noses and blond, brown or red hair. Others resemble Japanese, Chinese, Melanesians, Polynesians, or Afghans.” In 2015, a government official estimated that 15% of Indigenous citizens had no forager ancestry whatsoever. “
Now I wonder if the same analysis was applied to NZ, I wonder what they would find?
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October 24, 2025 8:01am
- kowtow
  
  After the National Party Great South Island Giveaway , aka the Ngai Tahu fifth full and final settlement , it’s said an awful lot of Soth Island fair haired blue eyed freckly types suddenly found they had “ancestry” too .
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:16am
  - Quail
    
    KT,
    Plus a lot of those with apparent Celtic ancestry too!
    
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    October 24, 2025 10:57am
  - sirknz
    
    Ngai Tahu did have a top up clause in their first settlment for being the first to go through the process.
    
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    October 24, 2025 1:33pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  It’s noticeable that the representatives of Aboriginal peoples as sighted on TV look nothing like the pictures of Aborigines in the books of my childhood.
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:16am
- David Garrett
  
  CJ: You know the answer…there are more and more blonde blue eyed “Maori” … some even with a chin scribble for good measure
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:47am
  - CJames
    
    David – my reply to cmm downpost here also holds here.
    I do note that among the Maori I work with, those who got their jobs solely on merit make no attempt to display their ethnicity. When we have any poorly attended event that celebrates Maori wonderfulness, they are conspicuous by their absence. It is almost as if they don’t want to have any taint of being a diversity hire associated with them. But it could also be that the affiliate to a non-local tribe so aren’t welcome – that is a whole different issue which is glossed over by panMaori idealism.
    
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    October 24, 2025 9:02am
    - imalwaysright
      
      “…panMaori idealism.”
      
      Great term.
      
      When the activists want the money, it is for “all Maori”. (That way they get more).
      
      When the activists get the money, it is only for the favoured, very few, Maori.
      
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      October 24, 2025 9:11am
      - AitchW
        
        Tamihere Inc, Mahuta Corp, Jackson Enterprises getting the lion’s share apparently.
        Because they know how best to distribute it to the bros in the hood.
        
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        October 24, 2025 12:13pm
    - David Garrett
      
      CJ: Either of the alternatives you suggest are possible – or perhaps even both. And this tribalism is not new – it has literally been so ever since Maori ended up in NZ.
      
      Forty years ago when I was at uni at Canterbury, one of my friends was a Maori woman from the East Coast – Ngati Porou territory. Her son went for a job at some Maori NGO. The interview apparently went very well until he mentioned his tribal affiliation – whereupon the interview quickly ended. No job for him.
      
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      October 24, 2025 9:59am
      - AitchW
        
        I get the impresssion that, of all the tribes, Ngati Porou and Nga Puhi are the most aggressive, least cooperative and least successful tribes with the worst average standard of living.
        Both pride themselves on being “warriors” and both are riven by internal conflict.
        A cynic might suggest that both are still living largely in the Stone Age.
        
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        October 24, 2025 12:29pm
    - Paulus
      
      The few Maori mainly women over the years that I have worked with have not made known of their Maori ethnicity as they do not physically show, except some of these young women were attractive.
      One beauty changed her surname name like her father which was originally very Maori name.
      Only after some time she she tell us that.
      
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      October 24, 2025 1:59pm
  - Nikola Donatello
    
    I don’t really understand young people getting facial tattoos. They are condemned to forever work in academia or the public service and nowhere else.
    
    Also try travelling overseas. A couple of years ago a guy with a facial tattoo was refused admittance to a bar in Australia. He went wailing to the media.
    
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    October 24, 2025 12:59pm
    - Flossie
      
      I wonder why he imagined another country should “respect his culture”!
      
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      October 24, 2025 1:28pm
    - sirknz
      
      A story like that pops up about 2-3 times a year. I never feel sympathetic for their conundrum.
      
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      October 24, 2025 1:44pm
    - Jake Dee
      
      Oddly enough, I think the largest ethnic population with facial tattoos would be East Asian women,
      Permanent Eyebrows.
      If you haven’t noticed they’re tattooed on, it’s because you’re not supposed to.
      
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      October 24, 2025 4:09pm
    - NothingLeft
      
      youngsters don’t consider consequences in a lot that they do.
      
      Body mutilation is a weird flex, and there are elements of female intra-sexual competition that lead them to doing all sorts of dopey self-destructive things in their efforts to jockey for status.
      
      Personally I am a fan of blue hair, facial piercings and tats – as it clearly identifies all the dick-heads to avoid.
      
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      October 24, 2025 4:20pm
- Handyman
  
  It would interesting to compare the numbers of New Zealanders identifying as Maori to those with Maori ancestry to those on the Maori roll to those recognised a belonging to an iwi and being beneficiaries of iwi settlement trusts.
  There are large number of Maori who cannot trace their ancestry to a particular iwi but can still vote on the Maori roll.
  
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  October 24, 2025 9:25am
  - Flossie
    
    Interesting that my maternal (Maori) ancestry goes way back (and is documented) yet my paternal side only goes back as far as my grandfather who said he came from Britain…end of. No departure port, dates, ship, or even his own d.o.b. In fact some genuine doubt as to what his actual name was.
    
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    October 24, 2025 10:30am
    - David Garrett
      
      Flossie: Just out of interest, why would you care much about your grandfather’s back story?
      
      Mine on my mother’s side is somewhat interesting. She came to NZ in 1953 on the best ship available. As soon as she arrived, my half brother and half sister went straight into boarding schools. My mother apparently didn’t work for six months. Someone paid today’s equivalent of $40,000 odd for her to literally go as far away from the UK as possible.
      
      My half siblings remember everything happening very quickly – literally one week they were at school in Kent, next week they were on the boat. The story was they came because my half sister had had TB – but if that were true they would have gone to Brisbane and not Gisborne.
      
      My mother was a pathological liar; almost nothing she said could be relied upon. I have no clue what lay behind her suddenly moving to the other side of the world.
      
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      October 24, 2025 11:01am
      - Flossie
        
        I don’t know that I am really that bothered about it. Might be interesting to know what part of Britain he came from. Or in fact it might be interesting to know if any of his story was factual! But I just wrote that to illustrate that it is not only Maori who may have some difficulty defining their roots. And just to reiterate – I have no truck whatsoever with any kind of apartheid.
        
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        October 24, 2025 11:11am
      - fightingtemeraire
        
        Remittance people, Wealthy families sent the black sheep of the family to “the Colonies” as far away as possible and sent a “remittance” every few months.
        
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        October 24, 2025 6:10pm
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      Ancestry dot com or similar is your friend, if you’re brave enough.
      
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      October 24, 2025 7:07pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        If you care about your privacy you might want to pause on that one.
        
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        October 24, 2025 9:12pm
  - alphabeatrium
    
    What exactly are the criteria for changing rolls?
    What would happen if we started a movement for -everyone- to be on the Maori roll, and so turn the Maori seats into effective general seats?
    
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    October 24, 2025 11:43am
    - Ghost
      
      So you want to grow the amount of Maori seats by increasing the amount on the roll….
      
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      October 24, 2025 11:56am
      - AitchW
        
        It would be an interesting experiment. If enough colonialist Maori joined the Maori roll then perhaps some seats might be won by National or ACT candidates.
        The howls of outrage from TPM supporters would be both deafening and delicious to hear!
        
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        October 24, 2025 12:32pm
      - Ghost
        
        Is electoral fraud really an interesting experiment. Amazing, on a blog that is against the maori party tricks with the electoral rolls, when it’s coming from the right it’s an experiment.
        
        Is this a first? Kiwibloggers suggesting people commit electoral fraud. A place that was against the fraud in the USA, the maori party tricks. Guess it’s OK now ro commit election fraud
        
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        October 24, 2025 1:07pm
      - alphabeatrium
        
        Ghost: I said “what would happen”, not “let’s commit fraud”. i.e. it was a geenuine question. How about you engage with it? Since “blood quantum” is now racist, what exactly is a Maori? How do I know if I am one? Do I need to establish that somehow in order to change rolls?
        
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        October 24, 2025 4:52pm
      - Ghost
        
        Sigh, can you not actually see my comment is in reply to Aitch wanting to commit electoral fraud as an interesting experiment.
        
        I’m pretty sure most people have the intelligence to know if they are maori or not, but then again you can’t even tell a comment isn’t for you.
        
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        October 24, 2025 4:58pm
      - judith8409121
        
        do you not see the maori seats as electoral fraud? why have them at all?
        
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        October 24, 2025 8:03pm
      - Ghost
        
        The Maori seats mean nothing to me. I know people here care about them, but let’s get back to reality, you aren’t going to get rid of them, no government will remove them. However if people are stupid enough to commit fraud and enrol on the Maori roll, all you are doing is creating more Maori seats. Think about that for a minute, you won’t prove a point, you won’t get rid of them, you will end up having more created as the roll grows.
        
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        October 24, 2025 8:50pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        Ghost can you give me one rational reason why one group of people with one particular racial heritage should be granted their own racial seats in this day and age?
        
        If there is no rational reason you SHOULD care because they would be a racist gerrymander.
        
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        October 24, 2025 9:14pm
      - Ghost
        
        The maori seats aren’t going anywhere until Maori are ready for it. Nothing anyone does will change that. I do not care about them, you may, I don’t. You can live your life caring about something you won’t ever be able to change. Life is too short to give a toss about such things.
        
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        October 24, 2025 9:45pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        Ghost you keep writing that nothing will change in regards the racist gerrymander seats until “Maori” are ready. Are all those with varying degrees of Maori ancestry one homogeneous group who all think alike?
        I note that you have not given one rational reason for their existence in this day and age. As far as I can see, there isn’t one. Pretending it’s a non-issue doesn’t make it a non-issue.
        
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        October 24, 2025 9:54pm
    - Don Beckett
      
      I remember my older brother ( who died back in 2012) used to reckon that the only way to get rid of all the racist crap – which is much worse now than 15 years ago – was for everyone to register on the Maori Roll, thus removing any distinction by race, and we would all be “Nga Maori” – which simply means “The People”. No division.
      Te Pati Maori would shit themselves, because the electorates would have to be re-aligned to cater for everyone – Treaty of Waitangi, “We are one people” – “”He iwi tahi tatou”, as stated by a prominent Maori politician 100 years ago.
      
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      October 24, 2025 12:33pm
  - PurplePen
    
    And then there’s those that in any one of the govt agencies tick the Maori box and are not so they they can avail themselves of whatever preferential treatment might be available.
    
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    October 24, 2025 1:26pm
  - Paulus
    
    Can’t anybody say they want to be on the Maori Roll – simply lie, so what !
    
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    October 24, 2025 2:01pm
Cassandra

New VC of Massey, a Southern African microbiologist: “What drew me to Massey is its proud heritage, clear sense of purpose and global reach.”
Stirling stuff.

But he goes on to say “I was also inspired by its genuine commitment to partnership through Te Tiriti o Waitangi.”

What on earth has the Treaty of Waitangi got to do with “a clear sense of purpose etc?” One can only hope that he’s saying this to get the job and will then quietly ignore it.
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October 24, 2025 8:03am
- kowtow
  
  Sounds remarkably like Luxon.
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:17am
- In Vino Veritas
  
  Of course he said that Cass. He really wanted the job. Not many will say the Treaty rewriting is a grift by Maori. You have to be financially secure to do that if you are working (or be in an environment where your shareholders are sympathetic to your views).
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:21am
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  In the last 20-odd years, upwards of 500,000 adults have moved to NZ. Their view of NZ culture is informed by their interactions with other adults in the workplace. It’s natural to want to fit in. That’s why many foreigners in the public service and education say the words that make them seem even keener on MM than locals.
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:21am
- cmm
  
  I don’t think that hope has any merit. He will have been well vetted for the role.
  
  I don’t think the VC can really steer the ship on such matters. The rot runs deep and the any attempt to sort this problem out would result in the VC being white-anted.
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:23am
- Inandout
  
  The Maori stuff is evident in Massey radio ads.
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:36am
- Simon
  
  VC is just smelling the political winds, standing downwind of the National party.
  
  Treaty partnership is hyper welfarism with a heavy dose of government, grift, corruption and incompetence. NZ simply can not carry the National party
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:47am
  - R
    
    Simon, you are confusing the present coalition with the last Labour lead government
    
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    October 24, 2025 10:45am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Maybe he’s preparing for our future Labour/Green/TMP Government
  
  The Bill represents a significant step toward embedding Te Tiriti obligations at the highest level of government, strengthening accountability, consistency, and respect for Aotearoa’s founding covenant.
  https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2510/S00174/senior-green-and-labour-mps-back-hana-rawhitis-members-bill.htm
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:49am
  - graham
    
    Hopefully she would actually turn up to the reading of the bill, unlike a certain Green MP.
    
    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/green-party-co-leader-marama-davidson-apologises-after-her-right-to-repair-bill-dismissed-as-she-was-late-to-show-up/R52UXZGN5RF65FLQXWHIY22AQ4/
    
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    October 24, 2025 9:23am
- imalwaysright
  
  The Treaty Scam is nothing less than a full takeover of New Zealand.
  
  It may or may not be Government policy, but it certainly is the policy of the Public Service and the bureacracy- and at the end of the day, that’s all that really matters.
  New Zealanders will comply.
  
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  October 24, 2025 9:03am
  - artemisia
    
    There is more than one possible takeover of this country. Just because they are not front and centre in the media doesn’t mean there is no long game plan. Or even medium game plan.
    
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    October 24, 2025 10:12am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Correct.
      One rarely sees the Generals in the trenches.
      
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      October 24, 2025 10:33am
    - R
      
      The ultimate winner will be MARXISM, unless people start paying attention to what is happening in NZ and start thinking for themselves
      
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      October 24, 2025 10:49am
    - NZer In Exile
      
      Given the general disrespect/disregard for other New Zealanders (IE the majority), and the highly divisive and abusive rhetoric, I really do hope that this current govt are engaging a range of intelligence agencies to check for dark money funding and/or external influences.
      
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      October 24, 2025 9:20pm
  - AitchW
    
    How did we end up with such a woke and activist public service?
    Is it as simple as a weak and woke Labour government?
    Or does it go back decades?
    I had an entry level public service job in the 80s and there was no treaty grovelling then.
    
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    October 24, 2025 12:18pm
    - R
      
      Treaty groveling came of age during the Lange government.
      
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      October 24, 2025 3:57pm
    - Jake Dee
      
      Decades? This goes back CENTURIES.
      
      “The point is that this thing, whatever you care to call it, is at least two hundred years old and probably more like five.”
      Mencius Moldbug (Curtis Yarvin)
      https://www.unqualified-reservations.org/2007/10/how-dawkins-got-pwned-part-5/
      
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      October 24, 2025 4:34pm
  - Jake Dee
    
    Good God! The bureaucracy of New Zealand will take over New Zealand!
    That’s already happened.
    This isn’t “Maori-ism” this is progressivism.
    How much of the ideology underlying this was developed by Polynesian thinkers, using Polynesian philosophy developed in Polynesian languages?
    Even to state the question reveals how absurd it is.
    The “Te Ao Maori” or whatever is just the local pair of pants progressivism is wearing in its New Zealand iteration.
    
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    October 24, 2025 4:29pm
- Crafty
  
  Jan Thomas has destroyed Massey and it’s very disappointing that they seem to have hired someone to continue on with that disastrous approach. How she was allowed to continue for so long in that role is a disgrace
  
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  October 24, 2025 9:30am
  - R
    
    Prior to the Lange government, Massey College as it was then, was a world renowned farming and grasslands research establishment. Not now though.
    
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    October 24, 2025 10:51am
- judith8409121
  
  then he show he is indeed an idiot as the treaty is not in anyway a partnership. Shame he showed his stupid side.
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:04pm
CJames

In the UK, junior doctors are going to strike for 5 days in November for more pay. If the current coalition government is so mean to the government workers to not give them a big pay rise, what does that say about Keir Starmer’s administration? Aren’t they supposed to be the most progressive government around?Or does it say more about the entitled mentality of the strikers? Do they see themselves as the reincarnation of the Boilermakers or the Cooks & Stewards?
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October 24, 2025 8:06am
- imalwaysright
  
  Sounds like an opportunity for NZ to increase our doctor numbers without having to pay for their training.
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:14am
  - kowtow
    
    Just what we need , more woke strikers .
    
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    October 24, 2025 10:40am
  - Phronesis
    
    These are junior doctors in training to be specialists. We are mostly short of specialists (in part to train the juniors). Our junior doctors are comparatively very well paid compared to both the UK juniors and our own specialists. But our senior doctors are not well paid compared to the rest of the english speaking world. So if junior doctors come here they are unlikely to stay.
    
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    October 24, 2025 11:37am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Good to know Phronesis,
      Maybe we should be actively recruiting British specialists in medicine and other disciplines that we need, such as engineers, trades, and scientists.
      
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      October 24, 2025 12:37pm
- cmm
  
  Clearly make hay while the sun shines.
  
  Chances are that the next government is going to be less pathetic and harder to push around.
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:41am
  - AitchW
    
    That depends entirely on which parties form the government.
    If we get the god awful three headed monster which is a Labour/Maori/Green coalition it will be bulldozed from Cape Reinga to Bluff by the minor partners.
    
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    October 24, 2025 8:51am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Don’t forget Aitch that the Coalition Government have inherited a population many of which have a form of PTSD.
      
      Kiwis can’t remember hardship or threats, the Ardern Regime was their WW3, and most of them are still POWs.
      
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      October 24, 2025 1:10pm
- alloytoo
  
  I believe Starmer government is struggling to retain wealthy taxpayers.
  
  “He’s spending a year dead for tax reasons.”
  ― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:53am
  - kowtow
    
    Funny how our media love these “progressives” and we’re all meant to think they’re so savvy .
    
    They think they can tax the rich to balance their books , yet the policy drives the rich abroad so there’s no one left to tax .
    
    Some people never learn , or actually they really are as thick as they look.
    
    ps Interesting by election in Wales for a seat held by Labour since forever , looks like it might go to Reform .
    
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    October 24, 2025 10:44am
    - fightingtemeraire
      
      Went to Plaid Cymru and Reform as runners up close behind.
      
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      October 24, 2025 6:13pm
- alphabeatrium
  
  I’ve always found it funny that left-wing types strike against the government as an employer, but always vote for more government.
  
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  October 24, 2025 4:55pm
CJames

Jerry Coyne. on a roll, had a look at what “Matauranga Maori” (MM) could add to the prediction of volcanic eruptions.
https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2025/10/22/matauranga-maori-strikes-again/
“None of the references given in the Herald piece, including this one and this one—papers and articles that discuss the volcano’s geological history and possible damage—even mention MM, but it’s still touted as helping contribute to this five-year project.”
So as most people suspected, they had to mention MM to get funding, but it contributed nothing to the work. Jerry summed it up as “In the end, it seems that straight empirical observation and empirical-based prediction is what is needed here, and I can’t for the life of me find out how MM can help with that “
As one commenter put it about the MM rubbish.
“You can’t understand volcanic risk in Taranaki without understanding the whakapapa [genealogy or history] of the mountain,” — you wanna bet?
Why do we need overseas academics, and retired ones at that, to point out the “Maori science” emperor has no clothes?
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October 24, 2025 8:15am
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  When Mt Egmont blows, will its legal guardians foot the bill on its behalf?
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:18am
  - Pope Punctilious II
    
    Actually Mt. Taranaki is now a “legal person”, so the mountain itself would have to foot the bill.
    
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    October 24, 2025 9:48am
    - Steve Otto N Shore
      
      Got that person’s phone number? I want a chat…..
      
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      October 24, 2025 2:26pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Indeed…
  
  All I can say is that matauranga maori was of no use when 120 folks (mainly Maori) were killed when Mt Tarawera erupted
  https://nzhistory.govt.nz/eruption-mt-tarawera
  
  or when Ngati Awa’s tourism venture to Whakaari/White Island went belly-up
  https://waateanews.com/2024/06/14/white-island-tours-liquidated-after-reparations-paid/
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:28am
  - Bloody Dago
    
    Absolute bullshit in plain sight…and the “MM”word salad waffle is still being spewed out….. “You can’t understand volcanic risk in Taranaki without understanding the whakapapa [genealogy or history] of the mountain,” Phhhttt!!!
    
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    October 24, 2025 9:30am
  - Swifty
    
    Is knowledge of whakapapa intrinsic to volcano science in other countries?
    
    There lies the truth.
    
    18 0
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    October 24, 2025 9:44am
    - NZer In Exile
      
      Questions like that are simply ignored. Except when the woke are in power. Then they let their woke minions go to work on you to destroy your livelihood and your reputation.
      
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      October 24, 2025 9:27pm
- cmm
  
  “Why do we need overseas academics, and retired ones at that, to point out…”
  
  Surely it is bloody obvious.
  
  Anyone doing that within the establishment in NZ would immediately destroy their career and their reputation.
  
  Most people seem to think that scientists are these noble people who put truth first etc etc. Nope, don’t put them on a pedestal.
  
  Scientists are mere mortals with mortgage payments and egos.
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:33am
  - CJames
    
    Regardingg what I wrote, I don’t think rhetorical questions need sarc tags.
    
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    October 24, 2025 8:36am
    - cmm
      
      Yup, rereading that I see my rhetoric detection medication probably had not kicked in yet.
      
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      October 24, 2025 8:39am
  - NothingLeft
    
    Because we have a gutless govt of spineless appeasers who will nod along to all sorts of racist, misandric and just plain woo woo woke insanity if it means they can avoid the adult infants of the left having a sook about it in the media.
    
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    October 24, 2025 8:51am
    - cmm
      
      Once the snowball picks up speed it rolls by itself.
      This really does not need any need government impetus any more. The various organisations (academia and corporates) have self-sustaining levels of wokeness.
      
      I have a relationship with my major corporate customer, ABC, going back to 1995 – first 12 years as an employee there, then as a consultant. They are dripping in wokeness and DEI is part of “their culture”. They had a completely rainbow website until Trump put a stop to that – now it is just under wraps.
      
      They value diversity – so long as it is the right sort of diversity. Many of the people who have been there 25+ years don’t really like all the change but are told that maybe they don’t really fit into ABC’s culture. Their sort of diversity is not welcome.
      
      You’d think that people who had been there 25 years would know a thing or two about ABC’s “culture”, but no – the “culture” is firmly under the control of some DEI/HR types who have been there 5 years or less.
      
      Christmas has all but outlawed. Matariki, however, was elevated to a huge event with some people trying to draw parallels between Marariki and ABC’s space communications focused business.
      
      So no, this really has little to do with government any more.
      
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      October 24, 2025 11:47am
- keepcalmcarryon
  
  They could just ask Mr Taranaki.
  Sheesh.
  
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  October 24, 2025 9:02am
  - kowtow
    
    Mr ?
    
    Has anyone ‘axed’ him what he self identifies as , could be a they /them and the eruption would then double in size.
    
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    October 24, 2025 10:49am
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      Sounds like a toxic male to me. On the other hand, Maori would say he has just cause. From Te Ara:
      
      Ruapehu, the beautiful maid, was married to Taranaki. One day, while her husband was away hunting, she was wooed and won by Tongariro. When Taranaki returned at the end of the day he surprised the guilty pair. A titanic battle ensued in which Taranaki was defeated. He retreated towards the west coast, carving out the course of the Wanganui River as he went. When he reached the coast he moved northwards to the western extremity of the North Island, where he rested. There his great weight made the shallow depression which afterwards filled with water and became Te Ngaere swamp. Taranaki, or Egmont, as Cook named him, now sits in silence looking towards his wife and his rival. In spite of her infidelity, Ruapehu still loves her husband and sighs occasionally as she remembers him, while the mist, which drifts eastward from his head, is the visible sign of Taranaki’s love for her. For his part, Tongariro, who despairs of ever possessing her again, smokes and smoulders with anger. To this day travellers in the Tongariro National Park see the basin called Rua Taranaki, “the Pit of Taranaki”, which lies to the east of the Tama Saddle which was the original home of Taranaki.
      
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      October 24, 2025 12:02pm
      - AitchW
        
        A very romantic and lyrical tale, but hardly science in the true sense of the word.
        Not unlike the Christian creationist story it makes good reading but wouldn’t stand up to any empirical examination.
        
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        October 24, 2025 12:36pm
      - keepcalmcarryon
        
        Ruapehu the little floosie!
        
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        October 24, 2025 1:38pm
      - Don Beckett
        
        Depends which Christian Creationist story you refer to : – The earth is 6,000 years old, deducted from the creation narrative in the Book of Genesis. WRONG.
        – The earth is shown by science to be 4.5 billion years old which does not conflict with scripture. CORRECT.
        “To God, 1,000 years is like a day, & a day is like a 1,000 years” St. Peter, Apostle.
        
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        October 24, 2025 2:10pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        AKA folklore. Folklore is not science.
        
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        October 24, 2025 8:43pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        “To God, 1,000 years is like a day, & a day is like a 1,000 years” St. Peter, Apostle”
        
        Is there a disclaimer in Genesis that states that? What to believe!
        
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        October 24, 2025 8:45pm
cas

A great column this morning in the Post by Martin van Beynen against the strikes.
https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/360862165/mega-strike-dont-expect-mega-sympathy

He talks about Talbot mills dodgy poll and gives an indication of current salaries, facts that news reporters seem to deliberately omit. I wonder how Stuff let the column through!!
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October 24, 2025 8:48am
- R
  
  Very surprising for Stuff!
  
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  October 24, 2025 10:59am
I remember when

Silver Frns need to maintain focus on defence: Netball. Paul Egan.
Another misleading headline.
In Netball your team gets every second centre pass.
This means focus must first and foremost be on your attacking end.
The article, after the first game which was lost by 17 goals, ignores the fact the Silver Ferns lost 8 or more of their possessions.
There are the centre passes that are unproductive because of the end of quarters to consider.
If we had scored from all of our centre passes we would have been in the position to win the game.

The headline should have read, “Silver Ferns need to maintain focus on retaining possession of the ball.”
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October 24, 2025 9:21am
- RoboRob
  
  They might also want to consider resolving their coaching issues. I am sure that isn’t positive for the team either.
  
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  October 24, 2025 10:19am
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  Someone on RNZ this am had the temerity to point out Noeline Taurua’s maxim that in a competitive game, it’s fitness that sorts the sheep from the goats.
  
  The NZ netballers seem to be losing heavily in the last quarter. Some of them do not feel “safe” with Noeline’s methods (this is a woman who was Damed for her role in leading earlier instances of the team to success).
  
  Putting two and two together suggests that some of the girls do not like being told that they don’t work hard enough.
  
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  October 24, 2025 10:19am
  - R
    
    Or are from different IWI to Noeline?
    
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    October 24, 2025 11:46am
  - cas
    
    On sports talkback last weekend, someone rang to remind the host that under Noeline, the Silver Ferns only got 3rd in the World Cup and were off the podium in the Comm Games. Or it might have been 3rd in the Comm Games and 4th in the World Cup.
    
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    October 24, 2025 3:24pm
- AitchW
  
  So, to paraphrase, if we scored more points than the Aussies we might have won.
  Sound advice.
  Sports journalism is exhausting.
  
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  October 24, 2025 12:21pm
MCōs

Our family was dyed in the wool NZ/Irish Catholic and when my father married an Anglican at the end of WWII in England my grandmother’s nose was right out of joint.
Granddad who was himself a staunch Hibernian settled things down before Mum & Dad arrived in Timaru and everyone lived happily ever after.
Mind you when Mum went to church she went alone.
The thought of the Pope praying with the English monarchy, the descendant of the loathsome Henry VIII, would have been unthinkable not just to a couple of generations ago of our family, but plenty of Protestants in Northern Ireland too, I suspect.
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October 24, 2025 9:34am
- imalwaysright
  
  MCos,
  It would be a fair bet that if religion didn’t exist then 99.9% of people would have 99.9% in common.
  
  With religion, we probably have 99% in common.
  
  The power of the 0.9% must surely be derived from fear, that’s the only thing powerful enough to negate the other 99%.
  
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  October 24, 2025 11:11am
  - cmm
    
    Oh please.
    
    Religion, race, dialect, tall, short, rugby player, soccer player, Ford, Holden, cyclist, runner, North Island vs Mainland, blue collar, white collar,…
    
    People have been making in groups and out groups since forever. It is a natural part of how people structure society.
    
    If you really believe in Kumbaya then you’ve never been to Africa.
    
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    October 24, 2025 11:52am
    - imalwaysright
      
      You forgot Scrabble v Monopoly.
      
      Your first example of religion is the absence of which that is the premise of my post, you may have missed it.
      
      Clearly I was referring to common morals and ethics, not who likes eating zebras v who likes eating warthogs or whatever.
      
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      October 24, 2025 12:01pm
    - AitchW
      
      Don’t forget herringbone vs rotary.
      
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      October 24, 2025 12:23pm
- Flossie
  
  I think it’s great that two Christian religions are trying to find a little bit of common ground. It is most likely that if not for Henry 8th there would not have been a protestant church in the first place.
  
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  October 24, 2025 11:43am
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Would not have been an Anglican Church, perhaps.
    
    Martin Luther nailed his theses to the cathedral door in Worms in 1517, which predates Henry VIII’s peccadilloes by 20-odd years. There were periodic doctrinal rebellions against the Church’s teachings prior to that, all squashed (apart from the Great Schism with the Eastern Orthodox). By the 16th century it was only a matter of time before one succeeded. Henry of course had the power of the state behind him, which makes a difference.
    
    As an aside, I think those times would have been a better fit for Prince Andrew.
    
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    October 24, 2025 12:16pm
    - Flossie
      
      When I went to school, way back in the mists of time, there were Catholics and Protestants. The Catholic kids were schooled by nuns at the convent, and the rest of us went to the state school. There was a fair bit of name calling etc between the two groups but I don’t recall any division amongst the Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterian and others.
      
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      October 24, 2025 2:55pm
    - Taieri
      
      Martin Luther nailed his theses to the cathedral door in Worms in 1517
      ————–
      
      Wittenberg, not Worms.
      
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      October 24, 2025 5:28pm
  - MCōs
    
    Henry XIII established the Church of England whose adherents are known as Anglicans.
    Protestant covers a number of different religions besides C of E. Methodists, Presbyterian, Baptists and others
    
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    October 24, 2025 12:33pm
    - waikatosinger
      
      And it isn’t as if the protestants were all best mates either. The Scots can tell you all about that.
      
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      October 24, 2025 12:52pm
  - kowtow
    
    H8 was given the title ‘defender of the faith’ by the Pope for some writing he did against heretics (protestants) while he was still a good catholic boy .
    
    It’s still in use by the English crown. Maybe Leo can ask for it back .
    
    ps There’s a seriously important piece of Tudor jewellry on the market now , 3.5 mil , which was found a few years back by a metal detectorist .From when H8 was still a good husband to katherine.
    
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-64469038
    
    Worth a look for the history wonks
    
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    October 24, 2025 12:47pm
- alphabeatrium
  
  It also comes at interesting time, given GAFCON probably does represent more Anglicans than the Archbishop of Canterbury. What does the King make of the Anglican schism? Who should the RCC regard as the head of that church? (When are they giving us our Cathedrals back…?)
  
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  October 24, 2025 4:58pm
I remember when

Maori Wards:
Have Government and Local Body representatives not looked at the Treaty Settlements and allocation of Maori Fisheries?
What makes them think that the costs in both time to reach decisions and in economic terms will not be considerable?
Yes, Maori should be involved in consultation but that does not mean an equal say in the final decision.
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October 24, 2025 9:40am
- PurplePen
  
  More to the point, any landowner or constituent that might be affected should and is consulted. No need for special representation at that level as Maori or respective Maori groups would be consulted as a matter of course when they’re affected.
  
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  October 24, 2025 1:33pm
Swifty

Your tax dollars hard at work:

https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/culture-101/audio/2019009058/taniwha-following-the-tails-of-our-popular-shapeshifting-creatures

Notice the RNZ reporter falls over himself to describe this all lovingly, and in terms of art, but not a single question about “during your research, did you locate a single taniwha?”

A million bucks, funded by our premier SCIENCE fund, to acknowledge who (not what) taniwha are.

https://www.royalsociety.org.nz/what-we-do/funds-and-opportunities/marsden/awarded-grants/marsden-fund-highlights/2022-marsden-fund-highlights/the-tails-of-taniwha-told-a-cultural-history/

We have become a joke country.

Whoever funded this as scientific research should be publicly ridiculed and drummed out of public life.
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October 24, 2025 10:01am
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  We already know who the taniwha are.
  
  Step forward John Tamahere, Rawhiti Waititi, Tuku Morgan …. these people are a menace.
  
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  October 24, 2025 10:26am
  - R
    
    You forgot the Mahutu’s and Willie
    
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    October 24, 2025 1:26pm
- Nikola Donatello
  
  I agree. It is just shocking. But scientists, politicians, all silent.
  
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  October 24, 2025 10:27am
  - Ghost
    
    Why, what do you want the pokiticans to say? The government changed the criteria for Marsden Fund, and cut its budget. This funding is from 2022.
    
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    October 24, 2025 10:37am
    - Nikola Donatello
      
      I want them to declare that “Te ao Maori” is not science, and that it will not be taught in schools as science. Just for a start. This goes beyond the Marsden fund.
      
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      October 24, 2025 10:44am
Nikola Donatello

Yesterday a colleague mentioned to me that next Tuesday is the 190 year anniversary of the “Maori Declaration of Independence”.

https://nzhistory.govt.nz/media/interactive/the-declaration-of-independence

She was most unimpressed when I said I had not heard of such a thing. She tells me that Maori declared sovereignty in 1835.

Anyway it is news to me. 🙂 So I thought I would share.
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October 24, 2025 10:26am
- R
  
  Maori activists and sycophants are actively rewriting NZ’s past history; encouraged by academics trying to justify their University appointment
  
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  October 24, 2025 11:03am
- Hugh Jarse
  
  And yet despite having the first MP in the 1860’s, Maori seats in the colonialists parliament, equal opportunity in work, special privileges in education, governance at local and national level, A Maori department and Minister for many many years, billions in treaty settlements they have not been able to turn that sovereignty into anything resembling self improvement but continue to demand more and more of the country’s resources and funds to address their growing list social ills. One could be drawn to conclude that this supposed sovereignty has not treated them well.
  
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  October 24, 2025 11:17am
- Don Beckett
  
  It wasn’t just Maori who declared independence – it also involved a number of early English & Irish settlers, along with a few escaped convicts from Oz, and also whalers & sealers who had settled in NZ to process the catches.
  Many of that group were also the ones pushing for Britain to control the country to prevent the French, Russians & Americans from taking over.
  They were a cohesive freindly & co-operative group seeking the best from both races – not the bunch of racist separatists we have today in the radical wing of the Maori Party.
  
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  October 24, 2025 11:33am
  - PurplePen
    
    And they were only a confederation of some of the tribes in the land at that time. So if they were sovereign in any way it will only have been over their own land and people.
    
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    October 24, 2025 1:36pm
- cmm
  
  I am more than happy for Maori to have independence from my wallet.
  
  Unfortunately I suspect they want “the right sort” of independence.
  
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  October 24, 2025 11:55am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  But just 4.5 years later, they ceded to Wikitoria te Kuini o Ingarani.
  
  https://www.tepapa.govt.nz/discover-collections/read-watch-play/maori/treaty-waitangi/treaty-close/full-text-te-tiriti-o
  
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  October 24, 2025 1:16pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    MW with the great con job being foisted on NZ, stuff like that must be erased from history and not spoken of.
    
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    October 24, 2025 8:49pm
- rjay
  
  Busby’s attempt to establish a national government. Failed hopelessly so he had a second go with the same people on Waitangi Day 1840.
  
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  October 24, 2025 2:17pm
- Quail
  
  ND ,
  Maori tribes had no cohesion, no written language and no concept of National sovereignty in 1835.
  A totally mischievous claim.
  Belongs with their discovery of the Antarctic claim!
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:32pm
leoj

“There is no need to declare war on drug runners, we will just kill them, as in – dead.” – Donald J Trump.

Can you imagine such clarity from Luxon?
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October 24, 2025 10:30am
- imalwaysright
  
  This Government , like the last one, gives drug runners, gangs, police escorts and event management services.
  
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  October 24, 2025 12:08pm
- virtualmark
  
  Much as you might laud it for being clear it’s also illegal.
  
  If they are drug runners then show us the evidence. Because the concern is that they’re fishermen who are being extra-judicially killed by the USA in a blatant breach of international law.
  
  I note the 3-star Admiral responsible for this area of operations has resigned. I suspect that’s because (a) he has good cause to believe they are not drug runners and so (b) he has legal exposure to their murders. No doubt he remembers that 80 years ago we decided “I was just following orders” wasn’t a valid legal defence. He might also have noted that Philippine former President Duarte has been arrested and indicted for extra-judicial killings of drug dealers.
  
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  October 24, 2025 2:43pm
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Fishermen generally put to sea in slow, broad beamed boats that have masts and other tackle for setting and hauling nets.
    
    Drug runners, on the other hand, favour the speediest of speed boats, with pointy front ends.
    
    It’s not hard to identify one over the other.
    
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    October 24, 2025 7:16pm
    - virtualmark
      
      What sort of range do speedboats with multiple engines have? The idea that someone is taking a speedboat with 3 or 4 powerful engines the 1,200+ km from Venezuela to the US is fantasy.
      
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      October 24, 2025 10:21pm
  - cmm
    
    Quite.
    
    Extra-judicial killing is itself criminal.
    
    If they really are baddies, then arrest them and give them a trial.
    
    Or at least attempt to arrest them. If they flee and get killed during the pursuit that is a different matter.
    
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    October 24, 2025 8:17pm
- Ra Henare
  
  You mean piracy on the high seas should be approved by Luxon.
  To hell with International law.
  
  Once again, we have the US power syndrome. Might is right, and to hell with International law.
  
  Why do the US Military have to use lethal force on suspected drug runners??? In the past, they have used interception.
  
  The answer seems to be better media optics for the sheeple.
  
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  October 24, 2025 3:27pm
- MCōs
  
  Sounds so simple doesn’t it
  Identify the drug runners and kill them
  The Thaksin government tried that highly popular approach in Thailand in 2003 and up to 2.5k people were killed
  When the smoke cleared it was apparent little was achieved except rivals were eliminated. Some gangs emerged stronger than ever because they informed on the competition and their dirty work was done for them.
  Completely innocent people were killed because someone didn’t like them.
  
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  October 24, 2025 3:58pm
lifesgood

So teachers and doctors are struggling to buy food and pay their mortgages, are they? Wouldn’t the vast majority of them be in a relationship with a partner working too? Doesn’t the partner help pay the bills? If you double a teacher’s or doctor’s salary a couple is doing pretty bloody well, I suggest. And if they can’t pay their bills on $200,000 a year there is something seriosly wrong with them.
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October 24, 2025 12:11pm
- Prince
  
  Not to mention mortgage payments having reduced by $’000’s per month.
  But hey, moaners gonna moan.
  And they are teaching our kids… That’s the scary part.
  
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  October 24, 2025 12:54pm
- Hugh Jarse
  
  By the look of quite a few of them they have been plundering the free school lunches as well.
  
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  October 24, 2025 1:29pm
- PurplePen
  
  You can always sell and rent. No job wage exists to secure you house ownership.
  
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  October 24, 2025 1:38pm
Swifty

I’m sorry, but this is not about rescuing a ‘fragile’ language on the verge of extinction, this is about forcing the adoption of the Maori language onto all New Zealanders, whether they wish to or not.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360864468/waitangi-tribunal-calls-immediate-government-action-reprioritise-maori-language-and-names

It is part of a decolonisation project which seeks to impose tribal influence and dare I say Maori control over the affairs of New Zealanders, irrespective of whether the lives of New Zealanders are negatively affected as a result.

For me, the proioritisation of Maori in the names of our civic institutions and initiatives, and often with an English name completely absent, actively disenfranchised me as a citizen. The news media, since Ardern, have frequently referred to organisations with Maori names (only) which I was continually having to look up to find out what they were. As a result I have slowly become disengaged from following current affairs as the effort became too much – as with the increasing peppering of English with Maori words often untranslated.

This is a clear case of a small group of our countryfolk having decided that all New Zealanders will and must learn Maori in order to go about their daily lives.

I ask again, exactly how will New Zealanders benefit from this. How will our lives be improved?

I argue that they won’t. We are just adding needless complexity, irritation and disengagement, not to mention cost.
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October 24, 2025 12:33pm
- PurplePen
  
  The FENZ communication yesterday included manglish in warnings. When you’re audience predominantly is fluent in English, wouldn’t the more effective means of communication be english and not manglish, especially in an emergency situation which threatens lives. Can you imagine if a surgeon or airline pilot started communicating in manglish in the operating theatre or cockpit. It just wouldn’t happen.
  
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  October 24, 2025 1:42pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    Usual far left govt response after injuries and/or deaths caused by muddled woke comms would be to enlist woke university “experts’ to declare the comms were all wonderful. Not sure what the current mob would do.
    
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    October 24, 2025 8:59pm
- wilderbeast
  
  Very well put Swifty, I feel the same. Te reo is a big part of it – if I don’t understand what I’m being told and know that they’re trying to “educate” me along the way at what point do they stop to think they might lose me? Sane goes for institutions pushing value positions down my throat. I’m totally disengaged and don’t respect what dwindling social license they have left. Here’s my little list of fallen institutions personal to me:
  
  – the daily rag that I used to religiously read and trust, going back to looking out for my junior rugby results decades ago.
  
  – my city council that formerly was run by respected non partisan community and business people who ensured the rubbish was always collected, the water was always clean and the roads were prioritised for movement.
  
  – my university that formerly was world class and accommodated people of various views comfortably and churned out smart, independent thinkers.
  
  – schooling system which I now have to monitor closely for the ideological, politically motivated hogwash it trues to drum into my kids heads.
  
  – parliament, once seemly and now a total circus at the whim of TPM and its parasites who don’t recognise the state but are happy to draw six figure salaries out of it.
  
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  October 24, 2025 2:23pm
- cmm
  
  It is a “fragile” language only because nobody has any interest in keeping it alive for utility or interest.
  
  The only people who really seem interested in Maori survival are the grifters who can get taxpayer funding out of it.
  
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  October 24, 2025 8:19pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    Dare I say mostly silly privileged non-Maori women running on pure feels in my experience (oh and their thirsty male simps). But hey, others may have different “lived experiences”.
    
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    October 24, 2025 9:07pm
Swifty

Moana Moahunter and Mihi Forbes get to
continue with their highly politically-partisan advocacy and media work and all funded from the pockets of New Zealand families:

https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360865319/last-remaining-maori-news-show-has-funding-slashed

Where, I wonder, are the taxpayer-funded people and shows who take an opposite political tack?

Where are our politicians and bureaucrats on ‘giving a voice to all New Zealanders’ and our state-owned media producing content ‘reflecting their communities’.

Fairs fair and all that.

And people bray there is no corruption in New Zealand.
10 1
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October 24, 2025 2:22pm
- Ian
  
  Does a moahunter still exist? Considering moa’s are extinct…
  
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  October 24, 2025 5:16pm
Ghost

The courts continue to protect a monster, i wonder if the international media will republish their articles soon on what the court is blocking

On the evening of September 8, a shroud of secrecy settled over the Tom Phillips case. In the following days and weeks, the layers of suppression have only grown heavier. The Herald breaks down just how much the court orders cover, and what it means for the children’s story going forward.

Article
4 2
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October 24, 2025 3:35pm
- MCōs
  
  I wonder if rumours about what is suppressed are suppressed?
  
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  October 24, 2025 7:31pm
Swifty

According to lefty-logic, this makes both Biden and Harris MURDERERS.

https://x.com/collinrugg/status/1981438341435576330?s=46
2 2
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October 24, 2025 3:37pm
Pope Punctilious II

Further evidence that it’s time to shut down the Waitangi Tribunal.
Waitangi Tribunal finds Crown breached Te Tiriti principles over te reo Māori cuts – NZ Herald https://share.google/XGpNqXsnosDQDxPj5
12 2
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October 24, 2025 4:36pm
- mandk
  
  I’m waiting for the WT to declare that the govt breached the Treaty because there are not enough Māori in the All Blacks.
  
  3 2
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  October 24, 2025 5:19pm
  - AitchW
    
    Or enough Maori in TPM.
    
    5 2
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    October 24, 2025 8:52pm
Swifty

Maori are widely known for their tremendous sea-faring skills and accomplishments:

https://x.com/suitandtie9999/status/1980897351805084136?s=46
1 1
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October 24, 2025 5:32pm
Swifty

The British Home Secretary talks about ‘her community’.

https://x.com/shabanamahmood/status/1981411435084189975?s=46

FFS.
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October 24, 2025 6:01pm
Ghost

An Auckland family are in a desperate race to raise hundreds of thousands of dollars for a cancer trial in the US that could offer their 11-year-old son a lifeline.

Without the vital funds, he cannot start the process, which his parents are calling their last shot.

Article

Give A Little link for anyone else that wants to help this boy
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October 24, 2025 6:40pm

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