Over 150 last second amendments!!

December 4th, 2007 at 3:40 pm by David Farrar

Annette King has just tabled the Government SOPs to the Electoral Finance Bill.  I’m amazed by the quantity of the amendments – there are over 150 further amendments to the Bill.

MPs in an hour or so will start voting on the details of the Bill, and the Government has just landed 150 amendements on them.

Now remember this is not just any law – this is part of the constitution of New Zealand – the is arguably our most important democratic act.  And it is being patched up at the last second with scores of amendments that cut out the public from meaningful scrutiny.

Do you remember Helen claiming the Bill was great now it is out of select committee?  So great, it needs 150 amendments.

Could you imagine the outcry in most countries if suddenly one has 150 amendments to the constitution, a couple of hours before they get voted on?  Mickey Mouse is too generous a term for it.

I’ll blog the substance of some of the changes as I work through them.

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457 Responses to “Over 150 last second amendments!!”

  1. slightlyrighty (2,448 comments) says:

    150 AMENDMENTS???

    FFS, who thinks this is going to be good law then? Or do the Labour govt see the writing on the wall???

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  2. burt (7,093 comments) says:

    FFS

    Time for a snap election. These guys are the most self serving bunch of crooks to ever hold office in NZ.

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  3. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    You winge and moan about how the bill needs to be changed, then complain when it is changed?

    Who can take you seriously on this subject any more David?

    [DPF: Well I'd say my credibility Sonic is around 1000% greater than yours. And if your family brain cell is returned to you today, you would realise that the idea is to have a better bill to start with]

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  4. burt (7,093 comments) says:

    sonic

    Who can take you seriously when you have defended the process all the way and claimed it is fixed at every stage.

    Go back to looking for spiders in your owners garden.

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  5. Frank. (607 comments) says:

    It can only happen to a Third World Nation.

    Welcome to the era of the Banana Republic

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  6. big bruv (12,380 comments) says:

    Guys

    Sonic is a Troll, trolls need feeding to keep them alive, why not simply ignore him/her.

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  7. sonic (2,818 comments) says:

    “Go back to looking for spiders in your owners garden.”

    Er, have you ever got help with any of that?

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  8. Adam Smith (879 comments) says:

    Sonic is deluded and delusional.

    150 amendments from the Government for a major piece of constitutional law at this stage.

    This is outrageous.

    If the Greens, UF and NZ Ist vote for this, they really are lickspittles with their votes for sale.

    Third World Nation be dammed, fifth rate at the least.

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  9. BeShakey (405 comments) says:

    Sonic may not have been consistent (I can’t say because I haven’t read all his/her posts), but does have a point. There are two things people might be pissed off with about this law – the process used for it, and/or the effect/coherence etc of the law itself (I suspect most her are pissed off about both).

    150 ‘last second’ amendments might give you reason to be (more) annoyed about the process. But unless you have read and considered all of them you can’t know whether they make good changes or not.

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  10. big bruv (12,380 comments) says:

    The 150 amendments will not make one ounce of difference, the damage has been done and I cannot wait for Labour to ram this bill through.

    Watching the media tear Klark and Lairbore apart over the next 11 months is going to be great fun.

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  11. Adam Smith (879 comments) says:

    The process has been apalling. A cynic might say deliberately manipulated so that there is little time to consider amendment impact.

    In my view, this is intrinsically bad, even if it makes a bad law less evil.

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  12. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    David, excuse my french but overly bloody dramatic.

    I thought this was a good thing, select committee has suggested amendments after listening to the concerns of the public, and this is a bad thing?

    “This is outrageous” I see a James Stewart movie in the off. Noir black and white, DPF holding the floor of parliament to overturn the evil party of the left, cue the soft focus and orchestral music and his voice turns horse from hours of filibustering and the government is bought to it’s knees. there won’t be a dry eye in the theatre.

    I can recommend a media company in wellingtonn to steer clear of.

    [DPF: try engaging brain before you write on things you do not comprehend. These amendments are nothing to do with the select committee listening to the public. These are last minute changes to fix up all the fuckups that the Select Committee either left in the Bill or stuck in themselves.]

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  13. MarkS (79 comments) says:

    Does anybody know of any other examples of a law being passed with so many amendments at every stage of the process? I can’t believe that Helen Clark can look at herself in the mirror and honestly say that she believes that this is good law, given the quantity of changes here. Unbelievably absurd! How Labour could possibly defend this course of action is beyond me.

    BTW – I assume that these are all Labour amendments? They don’t include any from National or other parties?

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  14. casual watcher (289 comments) says:

    Reality has to be that Labour are completely broke and they have no option but to try and foister this one on the hoi polloi. They are completely desperate to get this through – it feels like the the last toss of the dice from them. Could it be that Winston is going to break ranks and save us from further tyranny ? If this goes through then this country has lost its self respect and therefore deserves no respect.

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  15. Wycroft (820 comments) says:

    Sonic, are you saying it is an acceptable state of affairs to have 150 changes to a major amendement of our Electoral Act delivered to those that represent us only one hour before they begin voting on it?

    Really, I’d like an answer.

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  16. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Sonic – I’m all for attempts to improve ANY legislation (although as Lee C has noted, several times, the EFB is a turd, and you can’t polish a turd!), but to table 150 amendments within an hour of debate in the committee stages commencing does not inspire confidence in the ability of the House to conduct an informed debate. Remember, this is, as I am sure all of us on all sides of the argument are agreed, a very important constituitonal Bill, and deserves proper consideration.

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  17. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    It also smacks of deals having been done to “procure” support from the minor parties.

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  18. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    I have 3 of the SOP’s onscreen right now, there are 3 from King and 2 from Finalyson.

    There a raft of changes to clauses. Some of the SOP’s from King are very detailed.

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  19. Right of way is Way of Right (1,125 comments) says:

    One of the major cornerstones of our democracy, and 150 amendments.

    If this was a car, you would be returning it to the car yard for a full refund, or a car that works.

    And isn’t out democracy a little more important than a car?

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  20. Craig Ranapia (1,912 comments) says:

    Sonic, are you saying it is an acceptable state of affairs to have 150 changes to a major amendement of our Electoral Act delivered to those that represent us only one hour before they begin voting on it?

    Of course he does, until the moment the next National-lead government pulls that kind of procedural silly buggery on the Opposition. So, I guess we’re going to see strict party line votes and debate with all the substance of a ball of candy floss.

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  21. Wycroft (820 comments) says:

    Hey Sonic, perhaps you’re busy working; a response any time will do. If you don’t respond you’ll simply look like a wimp and a troll.

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  22. bwakile (757 comments) says:

    Sonic “You winge and moan about how the bill needs to be changed, then complain when it is changed?”

    Crawl back in your hole sonic
    This is bad governence
    If National were doing it we would still be moaning.

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  23. pseudonymous (69 comments) says:

    This has some bad smells attached to it. One hundred and fifty amendments; it just has to go back for more public submissions with that many changes. Put a halt to the dam thing, it’s rapidly becoming a farce of monumental proportions. Labour and their cellmates have lost the plot and chucked away the key.
    The Rt. Hon. Feigning Minister and his close benchmate Dunny Doors need to take a deep breath, stand as tall as they can and vote this abomination down.

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  24. David Farrar (1,812 comments) says:

    Most of the changes are minor, but it takes a long time to go through and check them all. The substantive changes are pretty weak – they have deleted the megaphone clause but placards will still need a name and address on them, as will posts to Usenet if they advocate for or against a party.

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  25. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    This phrase shows up quite a lot now in the amendments:

    “unless the Chief Electoral Officer considers that the offence is so consequential that is no public interest in reporting those facts to the New Zealand Police”.

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  26. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    So we need to add a name and address to political material.

    Suits me fine, an Informed voter I thought would have been a better armed voter. If (big if) I decide to read political material, I would be concerned if there was no name and address.

    We all bemoan wiki for it’s anonymity, I like a reference in my reading material.

    There is nothing wrong with removing anonymity to political debate, shame all of the faceless posters here will have to fess up. Put your name to your stuff, why hide, this is a good thing David. After all you managed to find who was playing with your wiki, if it was anonymous you wouldn’t have, and political debate would have been hijacked or at the least belittled.

    [DPF: Despite the fact I am probably the victim of more anonymous hate speech on the Internet than well 99% of people, I actually support the right of people to be able to post anonymously to Usenet etc”

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  27. Craig Ranapia (1,912 comments) says:

    And I’d like to compare and contrast the lengthy and very public process that was engaged with our last major electoral reform, changing our electoral system from FPP to MMP. Now, I might not have liked the outcome but you couldn’t say the facts weren’t on the table, scrutinized and debated to the point of exhaustion.

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  28. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    The debate is starting now.

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  29. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Right – the debate has begun. Rick Barker led off for Labour, and was talking about Hollow Men, EB’s and rorting of elections within 90 seconds. Make no mistake – this debate is NOT about reform of the electoral system – the EFB is about payback, nothing more; nothing less.

    To his credit, John Key is leading off for National, and has already ripped up a copy of the Bill!

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  30. AGJ (552 comments) says:

    Labour just blinked

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10480282

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  31. Gordon (5 comments) says:

    This pretty much guarantees that the next election will be decided – months late – in the courts.

    I’ve supported Labour (or the Alliance) in the last 14 general elections. I still support Labour (or the Progressives) in almost everything. I reject single-issue voting, up till now.

    But I’ll vote against them next time because of this issue alone.

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  32. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    AGJ said “Labour just blinked”

    And National kicked sand in their face! Good show, I say. The time for talking about the Bill in a bipartisan manner has well and truly passed, Labour has staked its reputation on the EFB, and is coming up short.

    As I type this, Key is saying “The PM is gone – the public is sick of Labour telling them how to live their lives”.

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  33. casual watcher (289 comments) says:

    The Nats had better not blink – time to display substance or they are nothing more than Labour lite

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  34. BlairM (2,266 comments) says:

    I don’t think that’s blinking AGJ, more a fluttering of the eyelashes, and if the Nats fall for it they’ll end up with a nasty dose of electoral herpes.

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  35. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Key promised to shred this law when in govt.

    Now Mr Baubles is speaking.

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  36. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Key “The first thing National will do is repeal this legislation – it’s gone! We won’t use Nicky Hager and his book as any sort of moral compass.”

    Winston is now on his feet – I’ll refrain from suggesting that he’s on the hind ones!

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  37. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Has Winston paid it back yet?

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  38. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    MOG this is funny. It’s sillier than Python trying to do a crickinfo text commentary. Who’s batting?

    I hope you have all poured yourself a stiff drink, tonight is the night democracy dies. Shame the song wont be as catchy as the man who shot liberty valance, but helen shot democracy will resonate around this blog for months to come.

    How many overs have gone now, playing with a straight bat I hope. Never and I will repeat this, never underestimate the power of a good forward defensive shot.

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  39. slightlyrighty (2,448 comments) says:

    Personally I am sick to death of a government that says “you can’t”. You can’t speak against the government, you can’t smack, you can’t eat bad food, you can’t let off fireworks.

    I’ve just realised why John Keys’ DVD resonated with me. He actually says “you can!”

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  40. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    To use the cricket analogy, Winston is batting but he’s playing and missing a lot.

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  41. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Winston’s playing a 20/20 innings – unfortunately, this is a test match!

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  42. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Inventory2 – has National paid the GSt yet?

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  43. MikeE (555 comments) says:

    Winston: “5000 people is nothing, I had more in my audience”

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  44. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Baubles to me looked & sounded like he’d had a liquid lunch.

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  45. bwakile (757 comments) says:

    Winston: “5000 people is nothing, I had more in my audience”

    Yeah and Karen Blixen had a farm in Africa once!!

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  46. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Keeping with the cricket analogy

    “Now it’s Rodney Hide, coming on at the Backbencher end. Moving in, past the umpire, and – great delivery – “partisan politics” – oh, the Minister had no chance of laying a bat on that one!”

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  47. Simeon (142 comments) says:

    If the Electoral Finance Bill is so great (as the Government says), why can’t it go back to the public for another round of consultation??

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  48. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Tremendous speech by Rodney H, he’s ripping the shit out of Peters.

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  49. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Hey Simeon – you just got a mention! Well done Sir!

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  50. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Hey, isn’t this the same Baubles who used to bat in your colours?

    Does anyone remember the Sienfeld sketch where he talked about heros in your sports team who suddenly is evil as they wear a different coloured shirt. Funny.

    So big whinnie is switch hitting. Given half the chance he’ll switch again. Dunne, now there’s a switch hitter, he’s already planning which office he want’s with National.

    I agree though 5000 is sod all. It’s a concerned 5000 and sure there are many more out there. But I don’t see you guys batting an eye when Maori descend on Parliament en mass, Foreshore and Seabed was arguably a greater injustice in NZ than this, by far.

    Anyone out yet. My money’s on Nick Smith.

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  51. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    no radio and mobile on my pda. keep the updates coming. thanks!

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  52. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Judith Collins is now speaking.

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  53. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    oh well DPF – it was a nice wee scare mongering campaign while it lasted hey?

    We are making a number of clarifications and amendments, the most significant including:

    • Narrowing the definition of ‘publish’, particularly by removing the part of the definition that would have encompassed advertisements that were brought ‘to the notice of the public in any other manner.’

    • Allowing the Electoral Commission and the Chief Electoral Office to decide that an alleged breach of the legislation is so inconsequential that there is no public interest in reporting it to the Police.

    • Shortening the period prior to an election during which third parties cannot register with the Electoral Commission. This was a recommendation made by the Human Rights Commission and Electoral Commission.

    • New clauses that create greater transparency around the disclosure of the contributors to ‘secret trusts’.

    • Clarifying that the requirement to place a name and address on an advertisement relates only to promoters, and not the general public.

    “All these amendments are aimed at clarifying the intention of the Bill, which does not set out to prevent free speech as misinformation has suggested, but rather, it is intended to fetter the undue influence of people who can afford to buy elections.

    “There is still comment from some political commentators and parties who steadfastly ignore the worthwhile changes the Select Committee and the Government have made but I am sure that the public will see through their objections for exactly what they are.

    “The Government is willing to listen to further sensible amendments during the committee of the whole stage.”

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0712/S00043.htm”

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  54. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Will do kk – stay tuned to Kiwiblog/Cricinfo! Ball by ball commentaries, and whilst we maybe can’t give you comments from Nav Sidhu, or even Bill Lawry, you’ll still get some gems!

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  55. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    proper link:

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0712/S00043.htm

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  56. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    oooo, they are trying to polish the turd. smell kinda lingers tho & it still sticks to ones shoes

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  57. Simeon (142 comments) says:

    Hi Inventery2, thanks !! Yes I saw Judith Yesterday and gave her Chris’s emails. She said she would use them in her speeches.

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  58. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    And how loud will Smith and English yell tonight. Dickie Bird wouldn’t have a bar of it. I bet Smith will blow a gasket.

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  59. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Chauvel spoke now it’s Turei.

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  60. Chinarugby (80 comments) says:

    I am listening to this at home here in Shanghai, Charles Chauvel was eloquent but made no real point other then we have listened and amended this and that. This bill ought to die a horrible death. Muriel Turei says it’s all about blocking out big money buying votes – nonsense she says National buys votes???

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  61. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    Yeah, who was calling for the changes Nome, you?

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  62. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “Muriel Turei says it’s all about blocking out big money buying votes”

    Are you listening to the same thing we are? That is exactly what she is saying.

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  63. Simeon (142 comments) says:

    If John Boscawen has got the money, why can’t he spend it??

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  64. Pascal (2,015 comments) says:

    roger: oh well DPF – it was a nice wee scare mongering campaign while it lasted hey?

    It is only Philip John who will attempt to paint a consultation over 150 amendments released in the week it will be voted into law as a fair and honest attempt to have bipartisan negotiations over what is arguably one of the core tenents of our democracy.

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  65. Reg (544 comments) says:

    Great speeches by Hide and Collins- Actually defended EBs right to participate.

    Turei currently demonstrating the “politics of envy”

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  66. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    because he won’t spend it supporting Labour

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  67. Chris Diack (723 comments) says:

    Gosh Turei is pathetic.

    Her argument is: money buys votes.

    In which case Green Party voters are cheaply brought.

    Spending one’s own money on one’s political ideas is free speech. To separate the spending from the views is a nonsense.

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  68. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Turei said “this bill is only about the purchase of advertising”

    Ignorant soul.

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  69. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Ryall, is a tosser.

    I tried to buy a t-shirt in NY the other week from Barak Obama’s fund raisers.

    I had to put my name and address among other details down, and it is all independently tracked.

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  70. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Lynne Pillay is screaming across the chamber at Ryall.

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  71. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    No he’s holding up the Herald.

    thank god he’s got his tie done up tight, he might actually pop a vein.

    Does the Steve Baumer “Developers Developers Developers” speech ring a bell.

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  72. Reg (544 comments) says:

    Ryall exposed that the Greens receiveing $40,000 of overseas money in 2002.

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  73. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    And who was yelling across the chamber at Turei, a little silly Lindsay?

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  74. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    I thought Turei’s speech was brilliant. It really went to the heart of democracy – it’s about equality of political power. If democracy isn’t about that what is it about?

    Tony Ryall totally gives me the creeps – trying to pretend that freedom to spend as much money you want to unduly influence the democratic process = free speech. Slimy little plutocrat.

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  75. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Paul,

    I didn’t see or hear the first part of Turei’s speech.

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  76. Chinarugby (80 comments) says:

    Ha – Ryall has done well to expose Greens funding from UK – man they shut up then!!

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  77. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Reg,

    who didn’t receive overseas money, hardly smoking gun. And frankly if the greens weren’t getting overseas money, I would be disappointed in them.

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  78. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Pillay’s turn.

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  79. Adam Smith (879 comments) says:

    I caught a fair part of Winnie the Pooh’s ‘speech’. He spent the majority attacking National. He stated the bill only impacted the 56 people/trusts involved with the 2005 election . He then went off in a tirade about how the Herald should not be writing anything as they are foreign owned and a front for those nasty foreigners who spent their time seeking to takeover and run NZ. No attempt to say why the EFB should be supported other than National and all foreigners are bad. This xenophobic nonsens has to be brought to an end. this mean claims to be Foreign Minister. A real gem was when he admitted he had not read the Herald, but knowing what they actually said was irrelevant.

    Rodney gave a good speech. EFB was a dog and was still a god and the Greens, Dunne and WTP should stand up like men and vote EFB down.

    Turei spoke for the GReens and immediately started in on National and how EFB was needed to stop those nasty National people and the EB ever doing anything again.

    It is frightening to think that these people claim to be democrats. Their concept of free speech does not exist.

    The collective view of these people is such that no one is allowed to have an opinion other than their one. Their intolerance and bigotry knows
    no boundaries.

    And of course the Great God, Nicky Hager was regularly invoked as the fount of wisdom and knowledge.

    If nothing else the venom and spew from the Government and it’s appalling companions in evil, has fully convinced me of the need to ensure they are removed from office as soon as possible. Their corruption is such that there is a stench of decay emanating from them.

    Excuse me whilst I go and vomit.

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  80. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Ew, thank god this man isn’t a minister. What a strange man.

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  81. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    $40,000 – is that really all? You idiots don’t seem to recall that National recieved $1.7 million in secret donations during 2005.

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  82. infused (616 comments) says:

    http://images.tvnz.co.nz/flashvideo/windows/one_news/live/parl_live_128k.asx

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  83. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    What does it matter when the amendments are bought in, 1 day one week one year, National opposes them all anyway .
    They will vote against every one, not because they have merit but they oppose the bill in its entirety.
    Discussion is pointless since they just want to drag this out into the new year.
    WE have a representative democracy not a democracy that lets the losers run the show.
    if the voters dont like labour they can vote them out and well see what national does to replace it. so far their talk is cheap.
    Guess what , then will agrue for for they found easy to argue against.
    They did the same with GST and a myriad of other measures.

    In the US all donors have to supply
    Name
    Address
    name of employer
    and its all electronically searchable

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  84. Adam Smith (879 comments) says:

    Pardon my typo Rodney said ‘EFB was a dog and still a dog’

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  85. Chinarugby (80 comments) says:

    Idiot -Pillay – ‘we want one person one vote’ – hmmmmmmmmmm thought we had it already

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  86. Simeon (142 comments) says:

    Pillay doesn’t have a clue what she is speaking about. In fact it is very hard to understand the bill. I sympathize with her !!

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  87. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    “it’s about equality of political power. If democracy isn’t about that what is it about?”

    Yup! NZMBLA should have equal political power to Plunket. The National Front should have equal political power to the Destiny Church to the NZ Green Party.

    And of course Labour should have equal political power to ACT. And by equal we mean way more, obviously.

    You have never defined unduly influence, and regardless how you do now, we all know it means “influence more than I think they should”.

    You give any true democrat the creeps, Nome.

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  88. Reg (544 comments) says:

    roger: These are the people that said they would hand in $20 from a German Tourist to the Chief Electoral Officer. Slightly Hypocritical I would say!

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  89. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Now Woolerton

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  90. side show bob (3,660 comments) says:

    What a pack of pus sucking maggot ridden arseholes, Liarbore are signing their own death warrants the socialist pricks. Kiwis have had a total guts full of these wankers and that includes Dear Leader. Paul, roger, Sonic, you bastards think you are so clever, just wait long enough the party you so blindly follow will one day come after you, you fucking morons.

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  91. Simeon (142 comments) says:

    Current speaker doesn’t believe that there were 5000 people at the march. Wake up !!

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  92. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    He’s a bloody twit that’s why

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  93. Adam Smith (879 comments) says:

    Nome obviously is not seeing and/or hearing what others are. There is no way Turei’s speech was brilliant.

    She attacked Boscawen because he had spent money on opposing the bill. How dare he! In any event he was not to be trusted – the reason he was an ACT member and was in business.

    So there we have it, if you are in business and have an opinion that is not Turei’s you cannot be trusted.

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  94. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “And of course Labour should have equal political power to ACT. And by equal we mean way more, obviously.”

    Well if it’s not about equality of political power why should it be one person-one vote? What’s that about if not an attempt to move towards equality of political power? Why did women get the vote? Why did Maori get the vote? Why did the non-property owning class get the vote? Why have we eventually expand the franchise to all adults? Could it be because at its heart democracy is, in principal, about equality of political power? I rather think so.

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  95. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Woolerton thinks the EFB is “Meaningful”.

    ROFL

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  96. burt (7,093 comments) says:

    I’m an ACT member and run a business. Any other ACT members who run a business want to identify themselves ?

    I’ll give it about ten minutes then assume that most are too busy packing their bags to vote with a plane ticket.

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  97. mara (641 comments) says:

    The Bill is an absolute nonsense. It always was and here we are, intelligent people examining the foul entrails of the dog that was never important in the first place! Throw the whole dirty thing in the fire. Along with the mendicants who assumed that we were too stupid to realise what was happening. I hope.

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  98. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    BTW Kimble it’s equality between individuals, not groups – obviously.

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  99. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Funny, I’m watching and thinking the opposite to you guys.

    Pillay made sense, Turei made sense.

    But then that is democracy and free speech isn’t it. Simeon, if this really was the death of democracy there would have been 500,000 marching not 5000. I congratulate the 5000 who marched, but it wasn’t the masses.

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  100. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    What 150 ? Thats more runs than the Black Cups can muster in five innings ? Clearly this is a well thought out bill , yeah right . I bet a certain persons tax payer funded hairdressing bill far exceeds a 150 gold coins, especially with all the liarbour lickspittle parties to attend . What a nutbar bunch of twisted sisters and eunuchs, who are bloody woffle socialist shit mongers dwelling amongst a bunch of demented utopian creeps that tell more than a 150 lies /per second . ?

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  101. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    hey it’s Copeland, now which party is he or isn’t he with now. he was with the fundies shorter than the release of the DVD

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  102. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    I’ve never seen Woolerton before. What a prick!!!!!!!!

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  103. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Copeland wouldn’t know if he was coming or going…………

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  104. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Whos the dog sitting next to Pillay?

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  105. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Jesus Dad, are you still drunk. Seems like you’ve been on it since ten to seven this morning, and nothing is making any sense now?

    eunuchs, and bloody woffle socialist shit mongers. that’s quite the eloquence we were just missing from this thread.

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  106. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Lindsay Addie Says:

    “Copeland wouldn’t know if he was coming or going…………”

    He would if he hired the Bon Ton agency.

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  107. burt (7,093 comments) says:

    Paul

    The masses don’t give a toss, their mummies and daddies voted Labour or National and they just do the same. It’s called FPP and Labour are showing with this piece of legislation that they don’t give a toss about MMP. If they did it would have been drafted in a less partisan way.

    It’s a bit like voter turnout being lower on a rainy day than on a bright sunny one. Generally speaking the population don’t give a toss.

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  108. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “Whos the dog sitting next to Pillay”

    so that’s what politics has been reduced to. Clap Clap slow ironic clap.

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  109. burt (7,093 comments) says:

    Paul

    Politics has been reduced to whatever Labour want it to be.

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  110. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Don’t call them the masses they are now “Third Parties” under Liarbore.

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  111. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Burt, it will be a real shame to see you and your understanding of the electoral system leave these fair shores.

    MMP is great for democracy. Still we could always return to the days when less people voted for Piggy yet he still won the election – hardly democracy

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  112. Rex Widerstrom (5,129 comments) says:

    Adam Smith noted:

    I caught a fair part of Winnie the Pooh’s ’speech’. He spent the majority attacking National. He stated the bill only impacted the 56 people/trusts involved with the 2005 election .

    I really must get round to writing a book. One of the more interesting chapters might focus on why I was sent to address the AGM of the Tauranga NZF party in Winston’s stead. Who it was that was so important that he had to stay in Wellington to keep a dinner appointment with. And why this person was so important.

    Talk about unabashed hypocrisy.

    Since attempts to shred my credibility in various ways have failed so far, some notice might just get taken. Mightn’t it, Winston?

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  113. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    Paul
    Does Helen pay overtime in Canada ?

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  114. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “Don’t call them the masses they are now “Third Parties” under Liarbore.”

    Hey dimwit – only people/organisations who spend over $12,000 on an electoral will have to register as third parties – i.e. this excludes 99.9% of the population.

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  115. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Paul Says:

    ” when less people voted for Piggy”
    Pig/Dog Taken the moral high ground have you Paul?

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  116. Chris Diack (723 comments) says:

    Paul

    Of course Paul is quiet dim – claiming there is nothing wrong with posting one’s identity when advocating political views.

    He bravely posts just using is first name. So very very dim.

    He then usefully tells us he was put off my buying a tee shirt because of the US disclosure rules. Just think what might happen if he actually had something meaningful to say – perhaps after hiring lawyers he might be put off.

    He is right – Labour’s proposals are very similar to the US propensity to regulate political competition – this favors high net worth candidates and those with specialist knowledge.

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  117. pseudonymous (69 comments) says:

    Opening bat was Barker, stodgy, needs to get into shape for the quick singles.
    Key opens the bowling at express pace and clean bowls barker 1st ball.
    Chavel out, trying to tickle one round the corner.
    Peters swing and a miss, out leg before.
    Hide nails him with a corker of a yorker.
    Ryall bowls an unplayable ball at Turei, googly I think, she didn’t see it come out of the back of the hand.
    Collins, quick runs with a wonderful stroke through Carter standing in the deep.
    Pillay, screaming from the terraces and got pelted with tomatoes for her efforts.
    All out in under 50 overs

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  118. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    roger nome Says:

    “Don’t call them the masses they are now “Third Parties” under Liarbore.”

    “Hey dimwit ——-”
    Hell I wish I was as bright as you asshole!!!!

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  119. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Johnboy, enough with the name calling, its so primary school.

    And Burt, MMP is the only thing that has kept ACT in parliament, MMP is ACT’s best friend right now.

    Johnboy, $12,000 is a shit load of money to give to a political party. They sure as hell aren’t getting it from me, and if they do, make it accountable. It’s not rocket science, in NY i had to sign and declare for a bloody t-shirt and badge. Didn’t kill me and took all of – oh I don’t know 15 seconds.

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  120. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    “Hey dimwit” Second degree madness roger nomer , talking about yourself in public in the third person just like Helen does . Are you on the same pills – maybe share the same Sigmund doctor , as Paul and Lemon Face ?

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  121. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Barker looks like he should lay off the cheap port.

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  122. PhilBest (5,112 comments) says:

    Go on, roger, tell us that not only should “rich” people like lawnmower and chainsaw shop owners not be allowed to spend their life’s savings communicating with the public about something that they care very deeply about, but they shouldn’t have that money anyway. It is the fruit of exploitation of the proletariat, and a government dedicated to social justice would take it all off them anyway.

    Has anyone else noticed that its ONLY THIS TYPE that are actually still supporting this bill? Oh well, they’ll end up like Trotsky one day, the FOOLS.

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  123. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Paul Says:

    Who gives a tutae what paul says———

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  124. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Chris Diack

    “He bravely posts just using is first name. So very very dim” shall I type very very slowly and in capitals for you. Hover your mouse over my name, it’s called a link, very technical I know, but stay with me it will make sense. Click on the name and you will go to my blog, where you will find all of my details. Sorry if this whole internet thing is a little tricky. I just tend to like Paul, it’s my name, and this is an informal blog, I will however include Paul James Le Comte if that makes you happy.

    Continue reading. I didn’t mind one bit about putting my name to a t-shirt purchase.

    Sorry to disappoint you.

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  125. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    PhilWorst:

    Yawn!

    D4J – How did you learn to type while wearing a straight jacket? You use your toes?

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  126. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    PhilBest Says:
    ” Oh well, they’ll end up like Trotsky one day, the FOOLS.”

    Spot on Phil even his grandson Trotterski has seen the light.

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  127. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    ghostwhotellsporkies said”What does it matter when the amendments are bought in, 1 day one week one year, National opposes them all anyway .”

    More spin from the left. This is important constitutional law reform. Informed debate is the minimum expectation.

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  128. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Johnboy, I don’t care what anyone says, but it’s called democracy and free speech and as long as you lot are having your delusional end of the world as we know it rants about this bill, I’ll be here having a giggle.

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  129. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Roger don’t, I’m sure he’s drunk, there’s no other explanation for it. Still this wouldn’t be the same without dad in this thread.

    Inventory2, which constitution would that be?

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  130. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    Unfortunately Paul and roger nome are under the influence of psychotropic medication prescribed by Doctor Liar , who is a fully paid up member of both the Labour and Communist political parties . He supports the bill .

    Both should be placed in a mental hospital until they’re fully recovered from the poison Aunt Hells pizza and Stalin indoctrination classes .

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  131. PhilBest (5,112 comments) says:

    Its way beyond time that the Nats got enough spine (borrowed some off ACT perhaps) to stick up for the Exclusive B. Actually, I think there should be an independent inquiry into the truth about what really happened. The line from Labour and the Brethren haters in the MSM was probably about as truthful as the Nazis jackup about the infamous Reichstag fire. Apart from readers of the “Investigate” magazine, NZ-ers have been fed a relentless diet of what is probably blatant propaganda lies distortions and spin about the “evil” EB secret seven and what they did.

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  132. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Watch 3News’ coverage of the Erin Leigh story tonight when they post the video later. In particular, watch as Helen Clark laughs as she talks about the attack on Ms Leigh as being “one of Trevor’s milder ones”. Helen Clark is a callous, vindictive b*tch, and not fit to be leader of this country.

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  133. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    So let me get this right.

    You can still march. You can still use a megaphone, you have to declare over $12,000, and it’s the death of democracy.

    Please you all do an injustice to yourselves. But who cares you’re going to win this election and repeal it anyway. Hang on that’s right this election guarantees Labour wins, but National are still going to win, but this bill won’t allow that?

    Too confusing.

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  134. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    Fine, it is equality of power for the individual. But this is expressed by the equality of the VOTE!

    Pardon my forgetfulness, but I didnt think the value of each persons vote had been tinkered with?

    You are talking about the equality of political persuasion, which isnt the same as political power. There are risks that this persuasion can become monolithic so as to hijack the debate, and this is why I have said (and DPF has also said) that some restrictions would be necessary.

    The question you have consistently avoided is, in any practical sense, can a degree of outspending which would allow one more prime time TV ad per month, or colour fliers instead of b&w, really be considered excessive?

    You say the level was set based upon what had been spent previously. As if this provides any workable benchmark going forward. But lets assume it does. Do you know how many third party campaigns I remember from the last election?

    A couple of union ones, because they were blatant lies and generally unprincipled, and the EB one, because of the millions of dollars of advertising they got free from the news media.

    Sure EB spent alot more, but I would not have even heard of them if they didnt make the news.

    You say that other third parties spent less than $120k? Surely if this was even approaching the crowding out level I would remember them. But I cannot a recall single one.

    The level of expenditure that would meet a reasonable definition of excessive is so far past $120k it is laughable.

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  135. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Paul – the same constitutional law that Sir Geoffrey Palmer is always being described as an expert in.

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  136. PhilBest (5,112 comments) says:

    Where’s our “constitution” when we need it? If we don’t have a governor general or a public body that can sack a government for this utterly unconstitutional behaviour, we’re not a real first world democracy like all those other ones with upper houses and mechanisms with teeth.

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  137. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Thanks for your link Paul. I will bookmark you later, quick flick thru your recents showed NO COMMENTS. Obviously no one gives a shit about your opinions, guess thats why you are posting here. Nice trick should get your blog traffic up. Chou wanker!

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  138. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Come on dad, not bad but you can do better than that.

    Inventory2, and National can’t work out GST or Copyright law, not my choice for economic fathers. I trust ACT more than those guys. There is no one better equipped in Parliament than Hyde, and there is no way he’d have allowed copied music on his DVD (besides he would have picked the music too).

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  139. Chris Diack (723 comments) says:

    Paul:

    Look I will judge you on your ideas not your identity – I was merely making the obvious point – and actually – not that it matters – you name doesn’t appear on your blog.

    But this does:

    “I agree that the bill is bad, indeed even wrong, but having been exposed to both the bloody Brethren’s crap in the last election, and now the political advertising here in North America, something needed to be done to protect us from any and every loonie with a buck to spend espousing all manner of half truth and pararnoid crap”

    Well Paul the best way to contest ideas you don’t agree with is to advocate an alternative – its not to regulate away ideas you don’t like. Interestingly you weren’t swayed by the EB last time so why not have confidence in NZers to handle ideas and sort out the one’s they like and dish the ones they don’t.

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  140. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    “Too confusing.”

    Obviously Dr Liar must increase your psycho meds Paul – immediately !

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  141. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Johnboy, quick up to speed.

    I use the blog to vent a spleen of let off steam. I don’t need or expect comments, but for the sake of openness I have left them on. I post so infrequently it’s just a past time. It’s my cyber soapbox.

    My other blogs however I do post more frequently too, as they have meaning in my life and I wish to spend time on them. I am passionate about a new Dunedin stadium, and newspaper design and other aspects of the design world and they take my time accordingly, well a distant second to my wife and kids that is.

    They too don’t have comments but they sure as hell get the traffic through. Personally I would be happy if not one single soul visited my blog, but it’s an open and free world and it’s their choice.

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  142. infused (616 comments) says:

    “Watch 3News’ coverage of the Erin Leigh story tonight when they post the video later. In particular, watch as Helen Clark laughs as she talks about the attack on Ms Leigh as being “one of Trevor’s milder ones”. Helen Clark is a callous, vindictive b*tch, and not fit to be leader of this country.”

    That was an eye opener. They seriously think the public is stupid. Next poll results will be awesome.

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  143. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    Political persuasion can be effective via two means.

    Firstly, it could simply be a very good argument, that leads people on a rational trail of thought over to your way of thinking.

    Secondly, it could be that yours is the only argument that is heard. This is what I meant by crowding out.

    The first can only very rarely be equal. The second can be influenced by expenditure. But the level of expenditure required to achieve it is so far beyond the current proposed levels that it is just not funny.

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  144. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    The value of your argument has far more influence than the volume at which you relate it.

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  145. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Chris,
    hat tip, name now on blog under about link. Sorry an error from switching main identities under wordpress.

    As for the EB or anyone else’s single issue money. it should not dominate the main political discourse of the day. God forbid if the snail protectors on the westcoast suddenly got 2mil to fight for their issue alone and it dominated the media. That is now what an election should be about. But the media likes these big stories and they will be swayed by them thus skewering the political discourse.

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  146. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Infused said “That was an eye opener. They seriously think the public is stupid. Next poll results will be awesome.”

    Ypu’re right about that infused. I think there’s a Roy Morgan poll due out soon, and this one will cover the period since the Herald went anti-EFB. I was looking at Roy Morgan’s website today, and they are crowing that they were closest to the actual result in Aussie, so that trend might be the one to follow!

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  147. Chris Diack (723 comments) says:

    Paul

    The EFB favours the media over citizen speech because the newsmedia is relatively lightly regulated under the Bill.

    The point remains – to combat bad ideas one should offer better ideas – not attempt to regulate those things we don’t like hearing.

    Have confidence in the innate ability of most people to process information and make their own judgement.

    If Citizens cannot process political information then perhaps we should blame the teachers.

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  148. Right of way is Way of Right (1,125 comments) says:

    You know, I remember when third parties were called “the electorate”!

    And when the Government almost listened to them, instead of ignoring them, and attempting to silence them.

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  149. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Paul Says:

    “Johnboy, quick up to speed.
    I use the blog to vent a spleen of let off steam.”

    Thanks Paul. One thing I really appreciate is a Labour person getting me up to speed.

    Glad your life has meaning beyond the labour party rule book.

    Hope I never touched a nerve there.

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  150. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Right of way is Way of Right Says:

    “You know, I remember when third parties were called “the electorate”!

    I am old and can remember earlier times when they were called “Citizens”
    and if I delve deeply into the memory banks I can also just remember when they were called “People”.

    Under the liars party they (us) are just “Third Parties”. ——”Some animals are more equal————–”.

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  151. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    Its so hard to touch a “nerve” Johnboy, as androids don’t have them ?

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  152. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Kimble:

    First you say that equality of political power is expressed by one person, one vote. Then you say that there’s more to it than this because the information/miss-information that people receive effects their decisions/who they vote for. Yes FINALLY the penny has dropped!

    What you still fail to grasp is that A line has to be drawn somewhere as far as a spending cap goes. Make it to high and it becomes meaningless as some third parties spend much more than other third parties – meaning that the primary principle of democracy (equality of political power) is being perverted. Make it too low and too many people have their right to freedom of speech curtailed – so a balance has to be found.

    IMHO $120,000 is reasonable as very few third parties have spent over this amount in the past (the vast majority of people still have complete freedom of speech), and it’s not so high that some third parties view’s get much more coverage than all the others (a lot of unions and other civil society groups seem to spend between $50,000 and $100,000.

    I agree that it isn’t perfect because some wealthy individuals like Boscowen (spelling?) will still be spending more than groups with 10,000 members, but it’s a step in the right direction.

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  153. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Would that be an “andertondroid” Dad, cause he has such a nerve pretending he is not a labour person?

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  154. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Johnboy well you’ll really appreciate this, a little more up to speed, I haven’t voted Labour in over a Decade now, sorry to disappoint. But there are other options in this day and age.

    Oh and you were on to such a scoop. Sorry old chap

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  155. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Hell nome, did you get taught spelling by Chris Carters old teech?

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  156. AucklandChap (3 comments) says:

    Is Helen going to be speaking on the bill? Will it be tonight?

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  157. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Paul Says:

    “Johnboy well you’ll really appreciate this”

    So I did hit a nerve then!

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  158. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    Chris Carter was taught by a exclusive brethren micro -chipped poodle called Quintin Crisp .

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  159. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Johnboy, so now it’s hard for you to understand that there are other parties out there.

    Still believe what you like, it only makes you look silly and of course wrong. Yip just checked still don’t vote labour, not left enough for me. Checked again, still not associated in any way shape of form with Labour.

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  160. Insolent Prick (417 comments) says:

    In a with a delicious sense of unintended irony, Paul says: “Inventory2, and National can’t work out GST or Copyright law, not my choice for economic fathers.”

    As opposed to Labour, who get caught cheating on electoral law, by misappropriating public money and spending it illegally on an election campaign, failing to file an accurate return of their election expenditure, and illegally breaching their spending cap, by no less august and independent organisations including the Auditor-General, the Solicitor-General, the Chief Electoral Officer and the Electoral Commission? You trust Labour to write electoral law?

    Labour has failed in every step to create an honest electoral framework. Quite apart from the damning submissions of the Human Rights Commission, the Law Society, and the Law Commission’s refusal to advise the Select Committee because the entire process was so flawed, you are trusting electoral law in a party that cheats its way into office?

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  161. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    “Johnboy, so now it’s hard for you to understand that there are other parties out there.”

    In Canada Paul ?

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  162. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Is johnboy is another D4J sock-puppet as James Sleep is running scared from both of them????!!!!!!

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  163. Chris Diack (723 comments) says:

    Roger:

    “primary principle of democracy (equality of political power) is being perverted”

    I don’t know where you get this stuff from. The equality of political power has never been the primary purpose of democracy.

    And in terms of the law, it has never sought to weigh and measure the non candidate political speech of one against another. Labour’s EFB is entire novel and revolutionary in this regard.

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  164. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    What has James Sleep got to do with this thread moderators ?

    Life time ban roger !!

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  165. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Johnboy, enough with the insults and if we are playing that game Teach is the shortened version of the word Teacher.

    Would you like to have a go at my dyslexia too now, it would be refreshing to have that insult thrown at me again. Oh that’s right it’s ok to judge people on their physical appearances/manifestations.

    Mate you haven’t hit a nerve. If on the other hand you were to jack me up on a blind date with Judith Collins, that would hurt.

    Really guys, this is a right wing hosted political forum and you guys are occupied with insults and false information. Hardly worth your while is it, when there are so many socialist pinko commies trolling through here.

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  166. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    150 amendments,
    National has 50 MPs
    thats 3 each

    So its TOO HARD for the poor slackers, might have to work late tonight only

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  167. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “As opposed to Labour, who get caught cheating on electoral law, by misappropriating public money and spending it illegally on an election campaign, failing to file an accurate return of their election expenditure, and illegally breaching their spending cap, by no less august and independent organisations including the Auditor-General, the Solicitor-General, the Chief Electoral Officer and the Electoral Commission? You trust Labour to write electoral law?”

    That ol’ chestnut again IP? You must not be keeping up with the play too well these days?

    What particularly annoys me is the bleating from the National Party over this. The Nats escaped virtually scot-free from the AG’s report by sheer luck. The party had spent most of its leader’s budget on political advertising earlier in 2005, believing the election would be in July. The AG only looked at the last few months leading up to the September polling day.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/blogs/politics/2007/11/12/the-electoral-finance-bill-is-our-democracy-really-at-threat/

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  168. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Paul Says:

    “Johnboy, so now it’s hard for you to understand that there are other parties out there.”

    Bring it on lad, nothing I like more than a lecture on politics from a leftie.
    I think the SUP died when old Ken retired from the drivers union so you have me enthralled. Tell me more of your beliefs.I am all ears!

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  169. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Hey IP haven’t seen you for a while.

    I don’t trust Labour any more than I trust National. And who didn’t over spend after the last election? And nobody repeat nobody has told me the outcome of the GST debacle. Was it paid back or are the interested parties out of pocket tens of thousands of dollars.

    Irony, tastes a bit Metaly to me, cold and bitter.

    Dad, what are you on about, they all know I am in Canada on 6 month R&D. There is a conservative govt here that has just posted a huge multi billion dollar surplus who won’t cave into demands for tax cuts, that is a poodle of the Bush administration. What else do you want from me. Use the keyboard and make some sense.

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  170. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “The equality of political power has never been the primary purpose of democracy.”

    Not to authoritarians or plutocrats anyway.

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  171. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Shit-O-Dear my fine bunch of leftie lads, don’t you realise we are only filling in time here until Parliament resumes. But it is nice to see you all and with a bit more warming up it should be a grand debate. Over to you D4J!

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  172. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Really.

    Smoking should be banned. If not Marijuana should be legal.

    Ghost, not to mention the army of staffers and lawyers they have on it, can’t be that hard can it? If they are any good they should be all home in time for goodnight kiwi, oh hang on that stopped years ago – sorry Johnboy.

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  173. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    I see that you and D4J are quite well aqauinted Johnboy??!!!! Did you meet at Hagley Park as you seem to have quite a “chum” there D4J???

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  174. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Tell me young Paul of your many other blogs and the wisdom that we poor facist scum may glean from them. Perhaps you know how to save the planet from itself?

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  175. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Oh hang on, they couldn’t work out GST or Copyright law, they may go into the wee small hours. Someone open a coffee shop on Courtney place, you’re in for a killing.

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  176. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    “What you still fail to grasp is that A line has to be drawn somewhere as far as a spending cap goes.”

    WTF? Are you retarded? I have been saying that for weeks!

    Answer the question,

    Does one group spending twice as much as another group drown out that group in any realistic way if all the ‘over-spending’ allows them to do is run ONE MORE TV AD PER MONTH in the run up to the election?

    If there is nothing really gained by this level of ‘over-spending’ then the limit as put in place is meaningless.

    The impact of the difference in volume between the two groups must be insignificant compared to the impact of the message.

    Facts, spending by third parties will be limited to just a tiny fraction of those that are standing for parliament.

    Given that you think that any monetary difference is significant, surely this legislation is offending against your idea of political equality.

    Political parties have more political persuasion than third parties. Surely this isnt fair?

    You cant even be internally consistent in your argument, Nome.

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  177. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Not at all nome. I just have a liking for firearms and I know a good quality loose cannon when I see one. What do you know of Hagley Park anyway, were you the man police are searching for?

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  178. Chris Diack (723 comments) says:

    Roger:

    You concede to making a nonsense statement – and then say its the position of (among others) authoritarians.

    But you are the one who uses the language of authoritarianism.

    All this regulatory talk is authoritarian fear mongering. So some religious guys put out a pamphlet – big deal – so what – if their ideas don’t stack up people will ignore them. Get over it no crime was committed. And for that Labour makes electoral arrangements in NZ a matter of petty partisanship.

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  179. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    “I see that you and D4J are quite well aqauinted Johnboy??!!!! Did you meet at Hagley Park as you seem to have quite a “chum” there D4J???”

    Roger nome / Phillip John – that is the most insane comment I have ever read on the internet in my entire life . What a knucklehead .

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  180. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Labour trying to get the Nats to talk about the EFB:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10480282

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  181. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “WTF? Are you retarded?”

    Yet to meet a retard with a first-class honour’s degree, though I’ve often thought that you may be one kimble.

    “Given that you think that any monetary difference is significant, surely this legislation is offending against your idea of political equality.”

    Yeah – I don’t think it goes far enough – spending limits should be set more democratically, according the the size of organisation, not just an arbitrary $120,000. However it is an improvement on the current law.

    BTW I don’t think that a complete “drowning out” is necessary to make a campaign undemocratic – just one that is many times larger than most others.

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  182. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Just blogged on it Lindsay

    http://keepingstock.blogspot.com/2007/12/labour-blinks.html

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  183. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “that is the most insane comment I have ever read on the internet in my entire life”

    You never read your own comments?

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  184. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Don’t worry D4J the police are on to him. He suffers from constipated conspiracy syndrome. If more than two people (such as you and I) pick on him at once he shits himself. Last scene of crime, Hagley Park.

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  185. WebWrat (516 comments) says:

    Gnome:
    Can you tell me why the government is sucking up to communist countries?
    Why did Winston go to North Korea?
    Why is the government talking of giving Nth Korea ‘financial assistance?
    Why did my father bother to spend half a decade fighting for our democracy?
    Why are you and your traitor mates so desperate to errode said democracy?
    Why do you think you are so ‘gung-ho’ when you consistantly and deliberately offend the very people that financially support you so you can sit on your arse in Dunedin and offend them?
    Why do you think it is such a joke to denigrate our democracy that so many people sacrificed their lives to acheive?
    Is a frontal lobotomy mandatory for socialists?

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  186. Buggerlugs (1,609 comments) says:

    God Roger you are a pompous wanker. And Paul, why bring up your dyslexia? Looking for sympathy again?

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  187. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    how many hours has poor democracy got left in her. When will this wrap up tonight, should I light a candle?

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  188. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “If more than two people (such as you and I) pick on him at once he shits himself.”

    I think you mean “pisses himslef” ….. with laughter ;-)

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  189. pdm (842 comments) says:

    Someone earlier said something along these lines:

    `Lynne Pillay had no idea what she was talking about……….’

    Isn’t that just great – wasn’t she the chair of the select committee??????

    She and Annette King would appear to have no idea about this bill – and don’t get me started on Barker – why was he fronting it not King?

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  190. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Parliament has resumed, Copeland speaking.

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  191. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Dont pick on Paul, Buggerlugs, I find him most amusing and have almost got him to tell me how he found DOG.

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  192. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    I think you mean “pisses himslef” ….. with laughter

    Hell nome you did go to Carters old school. Anyway piss off now the real game has just started again.

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  193. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Finlayson up to bat

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  194. Insolent Prick (417 comments) says:

    Paul, I don’t think you answered my question.

    Labour cheated at the last election, rorted the taxpayer to the tune of $800,000 which it spent on electioneering, filed a false election return, and consequently breached its electoral cap. Labour then legislated to validate its illegal expenditure. The question was, do you trust Labour, caught out as cheats, to write electoral law?

    Because if you don’t trust them to write electoral law, why are you defending the Electoral Finance Bill?

    No other parties rorted the taxpayer in anything like the way Labour did at the last election. No other Party filed a false election expenditure return. No other Party breached its spending limit.

    Quite apart from the content of the Bill, how do you justify a governing party writing electoral law without any of the proper consultation processes to suit itself? If the Bill is about encouraging participation in democracy, why is it that Labour is ramming through legislation, radically changing the most significant constitutional bedrock of our democracy, without any of the normal public participation?

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  195. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Called Pillay an incompetent. No one could argue with that!

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  196. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Williamson talking about blogs

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  197. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Williamson on blogs. Watch it folks!

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  198. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    Williamson on fax machines…

    Its pitiful

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  199. Stanley Climbfall (108 comments) says:

    look folks let’s admit it. Kiwiblog has a history of making big deals out of boring crap that has no relevance to life whatsoever. look at that meathead Mark Blumsky

    politics, not principles

    what do i predict is going to happen? John Key’s gonna have one of his gay ass ‘cup of tea’ moments and suck up to Labour’s pussy and come to some sort of compromise and all this controversial stuff’s gonna be swept under the rug, Dave will post a bit of apologetics, nothing really changes afterwards, etc. etc.

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  200. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Bug,

    no was just pre warning Johnnyboy so that if dog forbite I did spell something rong, he wouldn’t play the hall monitor roll on my posts like he seems to like to do.

    I’m not defending the EFB, I just don’t think it will be the death of democracy like you are all claiming. Aren’t labour paying the money back? I don’t know I’m not keeping up to date on that.

    You haven’t answered my question, where is National and it’s unpaid GST?

    What part of the select committee open to public submission do you want to call improper consultation? I wouldn’t call this process ramming through.

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  201. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Maurice waffled too much, Tolley now speaking

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  202. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Yes ghostwhostaggers: Almost as pitiful as the poor bastards who died trying to cross the wall to freedom in the west, once the saw the faxes showing them what freedom was like.

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  203. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Presumably Anne Tolly hasn’t seen this?

    “Shortening the period prior to an election during which third parties cannot register with the Electoral Commission. This was a recommendation made by the Human Rights Commission and Electoral Commission.”

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  204. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Barker into bat now

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  205. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    What the hell did Williamson think he was doing?

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  206. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Tolley just had her arse handed back to her.

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  207. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Finlayson – hehe idiot!

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  208. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    Its so funny National is sticking to its talking points, but Labour is pointing out all the new amendments make them moot!!
    Hah Ha

    Labours strategy is use Telecoms marketing campaigns.
    Confuse Confuse Confuse… how many days to Xmas….!!!

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  209. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Shit not Wagner … yawn …

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  210. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    Labours strategy is use Telecoms marketing campaigns.
    Confuse Confuse Confuse

    I agree with GWW. Scheeesh! I need to lie down.

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  211. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    How many standard drinks a day is Barking-Mad allowed?

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  212. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Wagner is quoting Shakespeare

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  213. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    roger nome help me as I have seen a ghostwhowalks and his hen pink bits .

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  214. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “How many standard drinks a day is Barking-Mad allowed?”

    That’s pretty D4Jesque – are you sure you aren’t a D4J sock-puppet?

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  215. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    Aye, what IP said at 7:39

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  216. Buggerlugs (1,609 comments) says:

    Stan, thought a Christian chap like you would follow Colossians 3:8 rather than talking about Labour’s nether bits.

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  217. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    D4J – you like?

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  218. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    roger nome put a f##king sock in it you communist puppet !!

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  219. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    roger nome Says:

    “Shit not Wagner … yawn …”

    Hell nome at least she is showing a little cleaveage.

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  220. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    D4J – remember what you were taught in anger management? Count to ten, breath?

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  221. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Hone just said “Helens not stupid” What does he know that we don’t?

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  222. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    Wagner says some clauses are open to interpretation!!

    Especially the clause about parties acting in concert must combine their spending.
    The public was lied to by national who acted in concert with the EB

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  223. Buggerlugs (1,609 comments) says:

    Breathe. Breath is something you take. We have found a retard with a first-class honours degree!

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  224. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    “Yet to meet a retard with a first-class honour’s degree,”

    There is one on the blog I frequent, guess who it is.

    “Yeah – I don’t think it goes far enough – spending limits should be set more democratically, according the the size of organisation,”

    Wow, you did not just concede the debate to me in one sentence. No, I think you did.

    You are perfectly willing to have no limits on the level of expenditure by an organisation as long as the per person expenditure is the same as other groups.

    Not only are you arguing that “drowning out” of ideas in a debate is not a problem, you are arguing that it is, in fact, desireable.

    How can you then say that you “don’t think that a complete “drowning out” is necessary to make a campaign undemocratic”??

    If we have one monolithic organisation that is able to outspend any other by millions of dollars simply because they “represent” 50,000 people, then democracy is in real danger.

    This single loudest voice WOULD be able control the debate. Other ideas would fail to grab enough attention to gain traction, catch on, and get the numbers to oppose the large group.

    50,000 people spending $10 each vs one person spending $500,000, what it would come down to is the value of their argument.

    They will be able to reach an equal number of people. Those people could weigh the idea and then decide how to spend their vote. So political direction would be determined by the idea.

    50,000 people spending $10 each vs a single person spending $10, the argument doesnt even matter.

    The single person could never reach enough people to ever change their minds. Political direction is determined by the level of spending rather than the ideas.

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  225. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    roger nome Says:

    “D4J – remember what you were taught in anger management? Count to ten, breath?”

    Hey nome. Were you Trevs f***buddy at his anger management training!

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  226. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    roger nome – the only time I count to ten is when I am calling down the seconds for first platoon delta company before the order to FIRE !!
    I like firing squad duty .

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  227. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    Carter is quoting from a newspaper which rants against MMP as undemocratic

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  228. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    Buggerlugs – exactly. Not sure if I speak for all Christians here… or just me. But Stan’s version of Christianity isn’t one I buy into. At all. (Sorry Stan – just the way it is)

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  229. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Brown is asking “Why do we need this bill?”

    The answer ya wanker is we don’t.

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  230. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “Wow, you did not just concede the debate to me in one sentence.”

    No – just can’t be arsed explaining the naunces of my position to you. You’re too stupid.

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  231. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Kimble Says:

    “—–Political direction is determined by the level of spending rather than the ideas.”

    Brilliant analysis Kimble. Is that why Liarbore get dumb unionists to collect buckets of cash for the cause?

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  232. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Well done Buggerlugs! I wonder how the leadership at Stanley’s church felt about him making disparaging comments about their guest speaker.

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  233. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Oh – and before the local monkeys leap on that typo – yes I know it’s “nuances”, not “naunces”.

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  234. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    “You’re too stupid.”

    Once again the rogered gnomer talks about himself in the third person just like wooden teeth Queenie Helengrad.

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  235. Insolent Prick (417 comments) says:

    Paul,

    I didn’t answer your question because it’s not relevant to this thread. It’s no secret that National settled with the broadcasters concerned so that they would not be out of pocket. The Party President made a press release to that effect.

    But back to the issue. The whole point of public outrage at this Bill is not actually the more strict regime imposed on third parties, the longer defined election period, or any of the other very large changes to our electoral system.

    The issue is whether you think that a governing party is justified to unilaterally rewrite electoral financing and spending laws to suit itself, without following any of the normal and proper consultation processes. Because if you think that the governing player should have carte blanche to define the electoral system to suit itself at the expense of everybody else, we are in a very dangerous position.

    If you want to make changes to our electoral system, fine. But do it properly. Set up a royal commission. Open up official advice to public scrutiny. Get a committee of experts to report. Get the Ministry of Justice to consult with the public on the policy framework. Get the Law Commission to do a report. Compare other countries’ expenditure and funding regimes. Then endeavour to get cross-party consensus on what you want to achieve.

    Only THEN do you introduce a Bill to the House. This Government has done NONE of that. It has cynically written the rules to suit itself, and now wonders why so many people are appalled with what they’re doing.

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  236. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    $1.2mill from EB, disguised to make sure they didnt effect nationals spending!!!
    The laws dont matter when national is using all the loopholes to get around them

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  237. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    In Nome’s ideal democracy, new ideas would only catch on if the people that have them have the tacit support of a large number of people.

    You know, like the union officials that have discretion over a budget supplied by tens of thousands of people.

    All political parties would have to pander to the third party that can control the debate, otherwise they will consign themselves to oblivion.

    Wait what was that? All political parties would have to pander to the third parties that are able to control the debate?

    Big fucking surprise. Nome’s ideal democracy would benefit the left wing and the Union movement.

    And he dares question OUR democratic credentials?

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  238. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    Auchinvole says labour despises the wealth generators.

    The class hatred line.
    It makes you laugh

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  239. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    ghostwhowalks, keep walking

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  240. Ross Nixon (599 comments) says:

    Where is the list of amendments?

    I want to see the one that changes 11 months to 11 days! Being optimistic!

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  241. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “roger nome – the only time I count to ten is when I am calling down the seconds for first platoon delta company before the order to FIRE !!”

    Fire on who? I hope you’re not talking about your snake again D4J????!!!!!

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  242. Buggerlugs (1,609 comments) says:

    With all due respect to Chris Auchinvole’s speech, does anyone else think he sounds like John Clarke (aka Fred Dagg)?

    I’m waiting for him to break into a verse of “If It Weren’t For Your Gumboots”

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  243. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    $800,000 stolen from the people (sorry third parties now). The laws don’t matter ghostwhofartsalot if you have the power to make retrospective legislation.

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  244. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “In Nome’s ideal democracy, new ideas would only catch on if the people that have them have the tacit support of a large number of people.”

    Or the media….. Or bloggers. Or popular right-wing organisations.

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  245. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Went to school with Fred. I seem to remember he liked to put his gumboot up the Trevs of this world. Can’t argue with that!

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  246. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    The fax machines will stop the red hordes,
    the moneyed class hates the fact that they arent ruling by devine right
    Fact national spends 1.5mill gets 20 %
    fact National and friends spend 2.5 mill gets 39%

    next year they want to spend $5 mill to keep the red army and red helen out of helengrad

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  247. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “$800,000 stolen from the people (sorry third parties now). The laws don’t matter ghostwhofartsalot if you have the power to make retrospective legislation.”

    Johnbaby: read this

    And before anyone leaps on their high horse about misuse of taxpayers’ money, puh-lease. The current situation is precisely the one that has operated for decades, and will continue to operate until we finally get around to state funding of political parties, which would be a far simpler, clearer, and fairer system for all.

    What particularly annoys me is the bleating from the National Party over this. The Nats escaped virtually scot-free from the AG’s report by sheer luck. The party had spent most of its leader’s budget on political advertising earlier in 2005, believing the election would be in July. The AG only looked at the last few months leading up to the September polling day.

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  248. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    There are links to the EFB SOP’s

    http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/DE2BAF97-E371-43BB-B767-F92BFAC61963/70189/DBHOH_SOP_1063_5633.pdf

    http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/CB26B088-C44F-4850-863A-3C4ADE0891CD/70187/DBHOH_SOP_1064_5632.pdf

    http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/8C6D37D8-37A0-45F0-A7B0-34EA20218527/70063/DBHOH_SOP_1060_5631.pdf

    http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/5FAED39F-17AC-453E-86C8-5B038380EDA1/70043/DBHOH_SOP_1061_5629.pdf

    http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/D1B0B7D4-5145-4AEF-BEB1-519CF3B5E17C/70041/DBHOH_SOP_1062_5628.pdf

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  249. Simeon (142 comments) says:

    Chris Auchinvole has a very unique way of speaking !!

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  250. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    Richard Worth (PHD RMIT, paid for by taxpayers) actually has some decent points about the bill. The only national MP whith any brains

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  251. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “fact National and friends spend 2.5 mill gets 39%”

    Was actually more like 5 mill GWW – $1 mill on billboard campaign, $500,000 by “fairtax lobby group” etc ….

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  252. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    nomiebaby. If we had a fixed election date or your sad sack leader did not like playing her pathetic little games over when the election will be held there would be no confusion!

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  253. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Great stuff from Williamson. Labour scum trying to shutdown debate.

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  254. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    Williamson is saying its a constitutional issue.
    Well the fax machines made sense then..
    Pity the NP lied about the previous Election Constitutional laws.
    Its like Ned kelley saying the banks are ripping off their customers

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  255. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    GWW,

    Wake up bud, it is a constitutional issue!

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  256. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Are National trying a filibuster this with endless Points of order? Interesting.

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  257. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Shoulda been …

    “Are National trying to filibuster this with endless Points of Order? Interesting.”

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  258. Chris Diack (723 comments) says:

    I was truly moved by Maurice Williamson.

    The Gettysburg Address of the Part I debate.

    He had me in tears.

    Who knew that the Soviet Union collapsed because of the fax machine.

    All this time I thought it was because communism didn’t work.

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  259. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Is recalling Margaret Wilson really an improvement??????

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  260. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    here comes the speaker………..

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  261. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    “No – just can’t be arsed explaining the naunces of my position to you. You’re too stupid.”

    I understand your position, Nome. You have been stating the same one over and over again, while clearly not understanding mine. You think i have yet to grasp the need for limits. Yet I have explicitly said many times that I support a limit. In fact the previous post explained why I think limits are important and how they dont mesh with your “more democratic” ideal of spending limits per capita. This is all the evidence anyone needs to see that your position isnt ‘nuanced’, it is completely illogical.

    I have been as clear as I can possibly be, but you still ignore the prqctical truth of my position. You have yet to answer the practical quesion I have posed despite having the opportunity for several weeks.

    I have demolished every single one of your arguments. Not just countered, but demolished. You havent got a single line of argument left by which to hang yourself.

    And only wankers use the word nuance.

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  262. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    Is Margaret Wilson in the race with Burton ? Three legs of chicken for tea tonight . Roger nome are you the fill tin of biscuits ?

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  263. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Looks like brownlee doing his best to filibuster this – Wilson will put the windbag in his place.

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  264. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    This long point of order highlights what is wrong with this whole process. The procedure outlined in IP’s 8.09pm post is how this should have been handled.

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  265. Insolent Prick (417 comments) says:

    Okay, of course they’re fillibustering.

    But the longer the Opposition can drag out the worst piece of legislation in modern New Zealand history, the better.

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  266. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    “All this time I thought it was because communism didn’t work.”

    Bit of both Chris, the commies actually pioneered NCEA and so were too dumb to operate a fax machine.
    After the wall came down many emigrated to Godzone and join the liars party as it was the closest the could find to their old party.
    See history is easy eh thats why Tricky Mickey majored in it.

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  267. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “And only wankers use the word nuance.”

    Sorry Kimble, you just really bore me. Prefer to debate clever people is all.

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  268. Insolent Prick (417 comments) says:

    I have to say, I don’t think I’ve ever heard Gerry speak so slowly before. Brilliant!

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  269. Buggerlugs (1,609 comments) says:

    No Rogered. You prefer to talk AT people. Debate is lost on your first-class honours degree.

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  270. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    Bill english pioneereed NCEA so there, just check the laws he bought in

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  271. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Roger nome – the more salient question would be – is the Chairman of the Committee under instructions to railroad this debate through?

    BTW – United Future has just voted with Labour on the first motion to be put. RIP Mr Sensible!

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  272. Insolent Prick (417 comments) says:

    Dunne’s too cowardly to show his face in Parliament tonight. I hope the Ohariu-Belmont remembers his shameful support for this disgraceful Bill.

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  273. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Voting so far:

    Labour, NZ First, Greens, UF, Progressives – 65

    National, ACT, Maori Party, Copeland, TPF – 56

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  274. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    ghostwhowalks Says:

    “Bill english pioneereed NCEA so there, just check the laws he bought in”

    No no no ghostwhostumblesoversimplecomprehension. The russkie commies brought in NCEA they just tried to pay their vodka BILL in ENGLISH money. Told you history was easy.

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  275. Stanley Climbfall (108 comments) says:

    buggerlugs – i thought a bugger like you would be busy fucking asses with hunky men?

    Christianity – pathetic how many people think they have a monopoly over what it means

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  276. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Field is voting for Finlayson’s amendments

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  277. NZTed (42 comments) says:

    Shame on the Greens, New Zealand First and United Future.
    What a bunch of flunkies.

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  278. Stanley Climbfall (108 comments) says:

    # Inventory2 Says:
    December 4th, 2007 at 8:08 pm

    Well done Buggerlugs! I wonder how the leadership at Stanley’s church felt about him making disparaging comments about their guest speaker.

    What disparaging comments? Quote it otherwise stop talking bullshit. Idiot.

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  279. Captain Crab (351 comments) says:

    Oh its lovely to see the democracy deniers like nome squirm. Defending the indefensible.
    How hollow they all are now that sunlight has exposed their hypocrisy and their BACKROOM deals.
    The Greens. Fascist to the core.
    Hilarious. And he thinks hes bright! Talk about undeserved arrogance. But thats the left for you.
    Still want to be “a highly waged lecturer” nome? What a loser.

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  280. Buggerlugs (1,609 comments) says:

    Stan – you’re clearly one of those who only go to Church to hit on the emotionally unstable young women. Shame. Now back to tonight’s coverage of Helen Chavez’s DIY Dictatorship.

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  281. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    Dont know why DPF isnt so outraged by all the amendments put forward by Finlayson!

    Thats because his outrage is based on class hatred

    [DPF: Good God I think we have a Marxist amongst us - who else goes on about class hatred. Or maybe he is a pom?]

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  282. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    “Stanley Climbfall Says:

    December 4th, 2007 at 2:12 pm
    10MB sermon Bob McCoskrie gave at my Church on Sunday: http://www.rcc.co.nz/audio/message.mp3 – talks about families, yada yada yada.”

    BTW Stanley – the only person who had a monopoly on what Christianity means was the one after whom it was named!

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  283. francis (712 comments) says:

    the vote. this is sad.

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  284. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    CC – But you don’t like me? To bad – I was thinking of asking you out – you seemed like a sassy wee thing – oh well.

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  285. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    “Wilson will put the windbag in his place.’
    Will she throw a leg at him rogered gnomered nincompoop ?

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  286. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    hehehe – fuck this is just gold. Too good to be true surely?

    According to Molesworth and Featherston:

    Attacking the Electoral Finance Bill Mr Perigo recently called for, apparently, armed revolution:

    “…the time for mere marches is past…It is the right and duty of New Zealand citizens to throw off this government, which has long evinced a desire — nay, a compulsion — to subjugate us to absolute despotism. We should not wait for the 2008 election…New Zealanders must now ask themselves if they are a free people—and if so, are they prepared to act accordingly? Which is to say, are they prepared forcibly to evict all tyranny-mongers from their positions of power?”

    The comments appear to have been since deleted from the website. But he hasn’t stopped suggesting some sort of preparations are underway: “Things are happening. No place for cowards and Richie Riches. Like ‘em? Go to ‘em.”

    You wouldn’t want to try making those comments if you were Tuhoe.

    Wow. Perigo is no fringe player in the anti-EFB campaign. He helped to found and remains to this day the intellectual powerhouse of the Libertarianz Party, which makes up one third of the Free Speech Coalition along with National’s David Farrar and Cameron Slater.

    For those who argue the anti-EFB campaign hasn’t been hijacked by an extreme far-right agenda this is pretty damning evidence.

    http://www.thestandard.org.nz/

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  287. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    brownlee has popped out for snack
    Only a couple of nats to see the end of democracy!! , plus Field
    I suppose they have better things to do at the bar

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  288. Camus (5 comments) says:

    Cheap shot about Wilson’s disability D4J.

    I just hope you will take similar jibes in good humour if you ever get cancer and need similar radical surgery. For the record, I disagree with most everything she stands for but respect her fortitude.

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  289. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    roger nome Says:

    “CC – But you don’t like me? To bad – I was thinking of asking you out – you seemed like a sassy wee thing – oh well.”

    Don’t cheat on the man you love nome. Trev told me it was only a play hit he gave you. How was he to know you would make a federal case out of it.

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  290. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Who is the old geezer sitting next to woolerton?

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  291. john (478 comments) says:

    HELEN IS THE LEMON AND WE ARE BEEN SQUEESED,Vote the witch out, ONLY 150 amendments , this is proof that you need a uni education and have never worked in the real world

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  292. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “Don’t cheat on the man you love nome. Trev told me it was only a play hit he gave you. How was he to know you would make a federal case out of it.”

    I would be carefull if I were you JohnD4Jsockpuppet – trev has been know to defend the honour of those he loves with much ferocity :-)

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  293. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    “I suppose they have better things to do at the bar”

    Yeah more sense to be had there than that lonney bin fill of political skullduggery charalatans in the debating chamber . What time is the fight scheduled ?

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  294. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    roger nome I ‘ll give you a sock you twisted wimpster !!!

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  295. Stanley Climbfall (108 comments) says:

    Buggerlugs – really? Wow you know me so well. Oh sorry did I mention that a former pastor was a counselor and had multiple affairs? What you think is what is on your mind.

    Inventory2 – how is that disparaging? Idiot. You should be grateful I bothered to provide the link. Yeah, I also believe Jesus said to the Pharisees that they were idiots for taking the Bible so literally and trying to prevent healing on the Sabbath ‘cos of their strict rules. Have you poked out your eyes lately for lusting after women (Matthew 5 – before you deny that to justify not cutting off your member check out 1 John 1)?

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  296. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Tarianas asleep again. How will she know when the tide has come in on the foreshore and seabed?

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  297. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    Note that Farrer and Boscawen are termed independent commentators in the broadcast media to get around the laws on balance.
    Blatant examples of why the rules have to be tightened up.

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  298. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    False alarm she has awakend. The foreshore is safe again.

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  299. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    Tarianas awaiting for a brain to come into the equation , a bit like that roger gnome chap .

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  300. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Have to say when I was reading that a nutcase was arguing for armed revolution I thought it was D4J, then I read the word “intellectual”, and it wasn’t followed by the word “disability” so that ruled D4J out pretty quick.

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  301. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    Not good…by crikey, there’ll be some Cheshire cat smiles in the party of tyranny and chicanery….oh, Labour tonight.

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  302. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    I rule you out pretty quick you jerkster !!

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  303. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    Dad4vengeance wants to know when fight Club is on
    Thats another of Gerrys specialities, him and whaleblubber took on one poor skinny lefty

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  304. Stanley Climbfall (108 comments) says:

    # roger nome Says:
    December 4th, 2007 at 9:09 pm

    Have to say when I was reading that a nutcase was arguing for armed revolution I thought it was D4J, then I read the word “intellectual”, and it wasn’t followed by the word “disability” so that ruled D4J out pretty quick.

    ROFLMAO

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  305. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “Thats another of Gerrys specialities, him and whaleblubber took on one poor skinny lefty”

    oh the humanity – I hope they wear shirts.

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  306. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Mrs Common-sense has arrived

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  307. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    Is that Rodney txting !!
    tsk Tsk

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  308. Buggerlugs (1,609 comments) says:

    From an email from Peter Dunne on the EFB:
    “But we will not support any moves to progress it under Urgency.”
    Hmmm…keep filibustering, guys.

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  309. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    roger nome Says:

    “I would be carefull if I were you JohnD4Jsockpuppet – trev has been know to defend the honour of those he loves with much ferocity”

    Trouble with Trev is he gets confused, must be an old rugby injury. I heard he took part in mortal combat over someone called Sharon, whom he does not know at all. I suspect I shall be safe and he will hit Dad instead.

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  310. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    That bitch King is talking a lot of shit.

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  311. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    ghostwhowalks , stanley the satanic worshipper and gnomer pile rogered bin laden ; How long have you three been liarbour spittle prostitutes? Do you all practice safe sex with the wabbits in wogers bedroom ?

    [DPF: And that's 20 demerits]

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  312. Buggerlugs (1,609 comments) says:

    GWW – txting when the failed dental nurse is speaking ain’t the same as txtng when HRH is speaking. King is lucky half the House isn’t vomiting at the claptrap she’s spoofing.

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  313. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    King was only mentioning about the new hospital that Labour built, National wanted to close it.

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  314. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Just as well she gave up being a dental nurse. The little kids would have had nightmares for years after she checked their cavities!

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  315. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    GWW – threadjacking to focus on Labours health successes? Not smart. Not smart at all.

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  316. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    “bout the new hospital that Labour built,”

    The new charity hospital in Ch Ch – ghostcreepster ?

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  317. Stanley Climbfall (108 comments) says:

    D4J the man who raped his little children and as a result had them removed from him?

    Hey, that’s no worse than you calling me a Satan worshipper, considering that’s possibly one of the worst insults against a Christian.

    [DPF: Actually it is far worse, plus you have an unhealthy tendency to keep bringing up pedophilia. Your demerits have just reached 100 - you can come back in a week]

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  318. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “D4J the man who raped his little children and as a result had them removed from him?”

    Is this really true D4J?

    [DPF: And 30 demerits for repeating it. Asking someone if it is true they are a child rapist is almost as bad as alleging it. Stanley got 50 demerits so you escape lightly]

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  319. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    The truth hurt stan ?

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  320. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    d4j – i’m with stan on that rebuff. in the (suspected?) absence of any formal moderators please take the community-led suggestion to tone it a bit.

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  321. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Is there some rule in the liars party that no female can be a member if they look better than Helen. If there is it is strictly enforced by the look of things.

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  322. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    oh no – King is talking about National and GST – red faces all around hey tories?

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  323. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    roger nome Says:

    “D4J the man who raped his little children and as a result had them removed from him?”

    That is sinking pretty low nome even for a liar party smartarse. Lets keep the insults political.

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  324. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    Whatever KK – you can say what you like however the one day the forests of truth will echo with laughter .

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  325. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    I’ve always liked Annettes teeth! Whaaaa….

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  326. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Johnnybo i- was just asking for clarification. No harm done.

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  327. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    hehe – Brownlee’s comparing Labour to Chavez now – fool.

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  328. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Maybe Annette is Helens dentist!!!!

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  329. dad4justice (7,406 comments) says:

    “No harm done.”

    You are a low #### Phillip John Mason !!!!

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  330. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Now he’s all wistful over the fish and chips he had for tea. Does this guy’s inanity know no end?

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  331. francis (712 comments) says:

    Get drunk and watch democracy die in New Zealand. The land of the long white cloud, indeed.

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  332. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    So yes or no D4J? Your silence is defening.

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  333. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    roger nome Says:

    “hehe – Brownlee’s comparing Labour to Chavez now – fool.”

    Your on to it nome, there is no comparison, Chavez has 49% support.
    Helens on 38% and falling!!!!!!

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  334. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Stan,

    HAHAHAHAHAHA

    your pathetic

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  335. Insolent Prick (417 comments) says:

    I’m glad you’re back, DPF. Roger, d4j, Stanley, ghostie, and buggerlugs have all been pushing the envelope of appropriateness.

    Tone it down, chaps.

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  336. francis (712 comments) says:

    HEY MODS!! surely the c word isn’t allowed.

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  337. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Now brownlee’s whining about the unions – aka popular democratic organisations that legitimately contribute to elections, and will continue to do so along with everyone else.

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  338. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    Ewww, toothpicks please

    Please roger, its all that fills his mind.

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  339. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    francis Says:

    “Get drunk and watch democracy die in New Zealand. The land of the long white cloud, indeed.”

    Try “Land of the sad red shroud”. Death of democracy is nigh. Till the revolution anyway.

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  340. francis (712 comments) says:

    It’s amazing that this is the new usenet. The only place online where real time discussion takes place. And the idiots that just about ruined usenet are out again in force. Maybe that’s a good thing.

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  341. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    Only recently democratic roger. Broken in the 90′s, thank God!

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  342. Spam (586 comments) says:

    Now brownlee’s whining about the unions – aka popular democratic organisations that legitimately contribute to elections, and will continue to do so along with everyone else.

    Nope. The EB won’t be contributing, you see EB==Bad, unions == good.

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  343. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Hey who is the most pissed here. I have finished my scotch and on the last of my three cans I had in the fridge. I am a little worried cause I was just thinking the member for Wellington Central was looking quite sexy.
    However Ryalls back on and I am OK now.

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  344. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “The EB won’t be contributing”

    Why not?

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  345. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    I wish, the missus is watching me like a hawk

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  346. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    I guess with stan ‘resting’ for a while we’ll not be subjected to cupchicks and scripture quotations in quick succession. phew!

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  347. Reg (544 comments) says:

    Did any one see Benson-Pope pin-pointed by parliamentary cameras combining an imitation pistol self-head-shot and one of his subliminal conscience spasms. A great still for Whale-oil if he can get his hands on it!

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  348. Chris Diack (723 comments) says:

    Hobbs is truly thick

    Emily’s List (high nett worth democratic women) is a US phenomenon driven by their spending caps i.e. the amount of campaign regulation in the US. She told us that the Emily’s List women told her how hard it is to get Women elected in the US.

    She then commits to voting for this Bill which starts to mimic what is done in the US.

    But Annette King takes the cake.

    The Electoral Commission asked for clarification of the law relating to “MP’s capacity”. But where are not going to clarify the law by ….. well….. clarifying the law (cause duh that’s how Parliament clarifies the law so we wont do that)

    And by the way her view about what is or is not within the capacity of an MP might be wrong.

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  349. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Old Stan has probably surprised himself by using naughty little words.

    Gotta I’m not a big fan of Ryall but his speech is entertaining.

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  350. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    ummm DPF – what have I been given 30 demerit points for?

    Robert Owen, Robinsod, Sam Dixon – now me? lefties are getting pretty thin on the ground around here hey?

    [DPF: Yes well asking people if they are child rapists does drag you down to their level. Actually asking people if they are child rapists is worse than trying to link me to neo nazis]

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  351. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    oops should have “Gotta say I’m not”

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  352. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    So despite the descent into a John Key directed NZ version of Reservoir Dogs that you have all been engaged in (add this blockbuster to his youtube), did democracy die in NZ tonight?

    Or do the wheels of democracy keep turing over tomorrow.

    Still a little confused. The bill gets through = democracy is dead = Labour’s monopoly on electioneering guarantees a Chavez like hold on democracy, or in fact the above is all false and National wins the election and this bill is repealed, back to life? It’s a little hard to comprehend how, if this will kill democracy, how National will get back into power without some sort of devious and cunning plan to break the law?

    Finally what part of the select committee open submission and public hearing process don’t you people like about our democracy. Last time I looked it was open and fair, or are you all aggrieved that it doesn’t meet your needs?

    BTW IP seriously thanks for clarifying for me the National GST cock-up. Sorry I missed that National Party President press statement (what was wrong with me). So they paid the companies back GST? Cool clear on that. What was with this site tonight, there was no way in.

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  353. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    I used to think Ryall was boring but with this speech he is looking more and more like Bob Hope.

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  354. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Guess who has been booted out for a week!!

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  355. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “DPF: And 30 demerits for repeating it. Asking someone if it is true they are a child rapist is almost as bad as alleging it.”

    Any pretext will do I guess.

    [DPF: You think asking people if they are child rapists is acceptable behaviour? Tell you what post it under your actual full name and include your address if you think that is acceptable discourse. Or try it in the pub.

    And before you start up a paranoid whine about it being a pretext (too late I guess) I have given D4J 40 demerits today and Stanley 50]

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  356. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    oh rog, stop playing the injured innocent. You knew full well what you were doing – cop your penalty like a man!

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  357. infused (616 comments) says:

    It’s still going on parliament tv.

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  358. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Take your lumps nome and stop moaning. You were out of line and got whacked. Keep the insults political not personal and you can still play here. Tell the truth we like having a liar party tosser like you to insult so don’t spoil it for us all. Imagine what life would be like for you if you could only talk to the wankers on the “Lowest Standard”

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  359. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    Death of democracy , can you get it on PS3 or X360.
    I must have it Xmas.
    Much better than a boring old DVD with stolen music

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  360. infused (616 comments) says:

    ah crap, they cut Bill English off

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  361. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    English is still going on about placards? A bit slow on the uptake apparently…

    “• Clarifying that the requirement to place a name and address on an advertisement relates only to promoters, and not the general public.”

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0712/S00043.htm

    [DPF: You know have you ever tried reading the actual SOP instead of the press release. I mean any lecturer would give you a D- for such shoddy work. If you actually read the SOP you will realise that a protester who writes his own placard is a promoter and still has to put his or her name and address on it]

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  362. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    Paul, if you want to frame it as ‘Democracy is dead’ if/when the bill passes, good for you! If you can’t for the life of me figure out that the bill is a stab in the heart to free speech, then I or anyone else here, can’t help you.

    OK, let me try,

    pre-bill: level playing field.
    post-bill: playing field skewed towards the incumbent.

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  363. goodgod (1,363 comments) says:

    All over till 2pm tomorrow…and Bill English was just winding up too. But only 97 hoops to legislative to jump through if you want to make a public opinion. Think about that overnight. Gee, that’ll encourage people to “participate”. LOL

    I dunno, what are Labour thinking. They’re completely corrupted and isolated from society now. In some kin dof paralell paranoid world.

    Bummer for them. LOL

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  364. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Thanks Infused.

    as an aside has anyone played the USA Today election game, it’s brilliant.

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/election2008/candidate-match-game.htm

    David, any chance of a neutral kiwi version of this for next year (in all seriousness – you have the contacts).

    BTW broadband in Canada – stinking fast and Huge limits, you just have to pay through the roof. Just an aside while others take a breath.

    I missed so much while things were down (was I banned – how cool) who’s not in for a week. It’s like a hall monitor dishing out the detentions “that’s a hundred lines”. Kinda geeky but after the trash that was thrown around, I have no problems with it David.

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  365. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Night night pollies, night night Johnboy. Well after I have finished my beer.

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  366. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    Bill clearly wants to be on the late news , I hear he has an exclusive deal with TV3 as an independent commentator

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  367. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    Luckily Bill doesnt have to rush back home to Southland

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  368. Southern Raider (1,377 comments) says:

    Ryall just slaughtered Labour. Got to love the “Owen Glenn” clause that was added by the select committee after National pointed out to Labour they wouldn’t be able to accept his money.

    Was Wollerton supporting the bill? He spent more time making it look like a load of crap. Going on about it doesn’t matter what the protester, lobbiest and media say. An MP’s job is to listen to the people. Who the hell has he been listening to? Helen? He then started down the track of it needs a lot more clarifiying and will take time to understand once implemented. With friends like these how can Labour lose.

    Dunne the weak arsed prick didn’t even turn up. Probably at home cuddled up with his teddy bear.

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  369. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Dazzaman

    not my words. I don’t see it as the death of democracy, most right wingers here tonight do. Shame the rest of the country doesn’t.

    Free speech is not dead, however if that speech costs over $12,000 then you have to register – is that going to kill free speech, I don’t bloody think so.

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  370. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    ghostwhofallsoveralot: Will he get to be called a “Little Creep” by our dear leader if he accepts the job?

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  371. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    At least Dunnes teddy bear is called Mohammed,
    yours is called darling, SR

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  372. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Southern Raider Says:

    “Dunne the weak arsed prick didn’t even turn up. Probably at home cuddled up with his teddy bear.”

    Did he name it Mohammed out of respect for the Islamic voters of Ohariu-Belmont.

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  373. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    BTW broadband in Canada – stinking fast and Huge limits, you just have to pay through the roof.

    Canada has a socialist govt yes? What’s the broadband pricing and political system like just to the south?

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  374. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    Speech is still free

    The $30,000 one page newspaper ad will count to your spending limit

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  375. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    BTW with the price of Oil dropping 12% in the last week, what’s been the response back home, considering that the kiwi is very stable against the US at about 76c?

    Have the pumps been lowering their prices?

    Sorry, it’s just you guys are so on to it with responses and we are considering selling the Subaru when we get back to NZ in Jan. Cheers.

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  376. Dazzaman (1,114 comments) says:

    Its a bloody good step down the road to gummint locking us out of the electoral process though Paul. What’s next? This lot are so paranoid and fat from the public trough, anything could happen.

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  377. Johnboy (13,424 comments) says:

    Is yours called Flossie ghostwhowhatevers?

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  378. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    No they havent Paul…. what did you expect

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  379. Buggerlugs (1,609 comments) says:

    Actually John there are a lot more Exclusive Brethren in Ohariu-Belmont than Muslims. Backlash, anyone?

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  380. ghostwhowalks (389 comments) says:

    Still have Goldie from the commonwealth games

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  381. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    Gotta love the comments on how good it is to have a free NZ … coming from someone who doesn’t live here. doh!

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  382. Spam (586 comments) says:

    Ryall just slaughtered Labour. Got to love the “Owen Glenn” clause that was added by the select committee after National pointed out to Labour they wouldn’t be able to accept his money.

    Yeah – but its all a sham. “Democracy in action” – Labour have the numbers, so its all for show. They may call it democracy, but its mob-rule. Same goes either way.

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  383. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Krazy

    “Canada has a socialist govt yes” NO. They have a stinking tory govt who will do anything for Bush. Sorry to disappoint, don’t you use wiki for even the barebones basics.

    What they do have is a poor poor poor excuse for competition between three very similarly priced companies. However Vodafone may bid next year for a new frequency coming in, and that will shake things up nicely (i’ll be home by then). There is no competition in this free market (and it was meant to save us from ourselves – go figure. Just like the NZ oil companies now there’s competition of a free market).

    So sorry that your views of Canada are so dim and confused Krazy, not to mention wrong. I also wasn’t talking about the US. It was just an aside for those that find that sort of thing interesting.

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  384. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    paul, not dim and confused at all. but appreciate your response.

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  385. Nick C (340 comments) says:

    “don’t you use wiki for even the barebones basics.”

    Well i think he did but Sam Dixon changed it to record a socialist government.

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  386. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    And Krazy, I do live in NZ, I am on 6 month R&D in Canada, we are allowed to do that aren’t we.

    Appreciate your response, apology?

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  387. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    ghost,

    thanks for the heads up on the petrol prices, what’s their excuse now? the dollar has been stable for about 10 days now and the price of oil has dropped 12%. Surely there is a drop on the way in NZ, I love the legacy too much to have to sell it.

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  388. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    no, not really an apology. i did ask if canada had a socialist government. it was phrased as a question. you may have noticed the ‘?’. you snapped back. a bit aggressive, but fair enough i guess.

    also glad you’re coming back here to live. remember to shut up and think what the government tells you to think. it’ll be law by then.

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  389. Spam (586 comments) says:

    hanks for the heads up on the petrol prices, what’s their excuse now? the dollar has been stable for about 10 days now and the price of oil has dropped 12%. Surely there is a drop on the way in NZ, I love the legacy too much to have to sell it.

    There probably is one on the way, but oil companies do hedge against currency fluctuations (& oil price rises, which is difficult).

    Don’t expect one overnight, but it will drop soon.

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  390. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    spam, they do hedge but that hedge never seems to protect the consumer. also when the NZD weakens against the greenback we get hit with instant increases at them pump, but when moves the other way the oil companies claim they buy on the singapore market so the USD/NZD cross-rate is irrelevent. go figure!!

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  391. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    OMG I am agreeing with Krazy. OK it’s nearly 2am, this is all too much for me.

    I just remember back in March sometime the dollar fell or the price went up over night and then the next day price of petrol went up? The oil company response was that the price of oil went up. It was instant and it was savage.

    They are screwing us in NZ and we take it.

    Krazy, sorry I thought you were just niggling, just because broadband here is expensive you came in with the socialist angle? A little too simplistic don’t you think. Mind you if you think cell phones and prices are bad in NZ (?) don’t come to Canada. They pay through the roof for headsets and for calls etc, it’s just hideous.

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  392. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Hey breaking news over here.

    The Bush line on Iran and his (well Chaney’s) wish to bomb Iran is dead in the water. It was (sound familiar) WRONG intelligence.

    Iran stopped any nuclear programs in 2003 and only has fuel for civil use. The Guardian, The Times, NY Times, Washinton Post, USA Today they all have it. What a complete and utter waste of a presidency.

    [btw and sorry for the asides - is it just me or canada, but is this site impossible to load tonight]

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  393. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    actually paul i was niggling ;)

    as for oil companies, successive NZ governments (of all shades) have been duplicit in helping keep thinly-veiled price-fixing in place. thats what happens when a regulation-setting body (our govt) is a financial beneficiary (ie via tax take) of their own regulation – the consumer gets screwed.

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  394. Rex Widerstrom (5,129 comments) says:

    Insolent Prick says:

    Dunne’s too cowardly to show his face in Parliament tonight. I hope the Ohariu-Belmont remembers his shameful support for this disgraceful Bill.

    They won’t, unless someone takes the trouble to make damn sure they do by making it the centrepiece of a campaign to unseat him. If I were back in NZ I’d take him on again.

    Which reminds me… some of us here were flapping our gums about a political party who’s only raison d’etre was to take the political material (and money) of any group or individual (yes, even the dreaded socialists!) and publish it on their behalf, thus coming under the political party regulations and not the “third party” restrictions.

    If we’re really genuine about it – and by genuine I mean we’d happily take roger nome’s or even Sam Dixons (non-defamatory) opinions and publish them, provided they fronted with the cost – then I’m in.

    Well, fellas…?

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  395. Peak Oil Conspiracy (2,772 comments) says:

    I’ve just read through this thread, and entirely agree with Insolent Prick’s summation:

    I’m glad you’re back, DPF. Roger, d4j, Stanley, ghostie, and buggerlugs have all been pushing the envelope of appropriateness.

    Tone it down, chaps.

    Stan: for a person who claims to go to church, the way you conduct yourself is utterly disgraceful. Let’s bring back AJ Chesswass of “Boobs on Bikes” infamy – at least he was well-mannered and debated the issues.

    Phillip John/Roger Nome: it’s hypocritical to tout your first-class honours degree and then – in the same thread – accuse (spare us the “seeking clarification” excuse) D4J of paedophilia. In my view, you got off scott-free last week for a grossly inflammatory personal attack on Pascal’s wife, and not only that, you weren’t man enough to apologise.

    On the actual subject of this thread, I haven’t read through the amendments but the public interest discretion (allowing the Electoral Commission and the Chief Electoral Office to decide that an alleged breach of the legislation is so inconsequential that there is no public interest in reporting it to the Police) isn’t adding anything more than, say, Crown Law’s prosecution guidelines.

    I don’t know if Tane’s still around, but I’m wondering why the EPMU is already inviting members to Register as a Campaign Activist for Election 2008? How do they propose to work within the framework mandated by the EFA (as it will soon be passed into law)?
    http://www.epmu.org.nz/tools/enquiry.asp?SECT=activist

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  396. burt (7,093 comments) says:

    PhilBest

    Where’s our “constitution” when we need it? If we don’t have a governor general or a public body that can sack a government for this utterly unconstitutional behaviour, we’re not a real first world democracy like all those other ones with upper houses and mechanisms with teeth.

    Amen – in a confirming rather than a religious context. Incase Nih is reading this thread I’m not homophobic or racist is saying amen, it’s not a haw haw nigger joke or anything else that festers in his mind. It’s just plain and simple “I agree 100%”.

    Give that man a Cubby doll!

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  397. Insolent Prick (417 comments) says:

    POC:

    You said:

    On the actual subject of this thread, I haven’t read through the amendments but the public interest discretion (allowing the Electoral Commission and the Chief Electoral Office to decide that an alleged breach of the legislation is so inconsequential that there is no public interest in reporting it to the Police) isn’t adding anything more than, say, Crown Law’s prosecution guidelines.

    I think this is a very useful amendment. Previously, the EC was required to refer all breaches of the Electoral Act to the Police for investigation. The Police then had to investigate all of the breaches referred to it. Unfortunately for the Police, it has no expertise in electoral law. They failed to prosecute the Labour Party for their failure to include the pledge card expenditure in their election return, or for the consequent breach of Labour’s spending cap under the Electoral Act.

    The Police’s justification for not prosecuting was that many parties had done the same thing, and that the law was confusing. That was irrelevant on the first count, and nonsense on the second. The point was the Police didn’t understand the Electoral Act. (Incidentally, Clause 80 of the Electoral Finance Bill retains the same ambiguity over parliamentary expenditure in an election period–so much so that the EC says it won’t be advising candidates on how to interpret it–they have to get independent legal advice. If the Police couldn’t properly investigate an Electoral Act breach that the EC referred them to in 2005, how possibly can the Police treat a complaint when the EC doesn’t even understand the law?).

    That aside, by giving the EC the discretion to only refer serious breaches of the Electoral Act to the Police, you’re effectively giving the EC the investigative role. The Police should have little choice but to prosecute all breaches of the Electoral Act referred by the EC.

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  398. burt (7,093 comments) says:

    PhilBest

    If you take the position that the AG was wrong with his call that political parties shouldn’t have helped themselves to tax payers money to overspend in an election, then the EFB is a natural fit for democracy. Sadly the same party who have denigrated the AG are now setting rules that not only validate the theft of the last 14 years but make it legal. The EFB is the distraction, the real dirty piece of work slipped by almost unnoticed. Almost.

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  399. burt (7,093 comments) says:

    IP

    That aside, by giving the EC the discretion to only refer serious breaches of the Electoral Act to the Police, you’re effectively giving the EC the investigative role.

    In a non politically neutral public service this is a grave concern.

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  400. Roark (77 comments) says:

    ummm DPF – what have I been given 30 demerit points for?

    Robert Owen, Robinsod, Sam Dixon – now me? lefties are getting pretty thin on the ground around here hey?

    [DPF: Yes well asking people if they are child rapists does drag you down to their level. Actually ask,/iing people if they are child rapists is worse than trying to link me to neo nazis]

    This banning thing is interesting. I may be a bit behind the play but why were Robert Owen and Robinsod banned?

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  401. burt (7,093 comments) says:

    Roark

    Stop distracting the thread, you can email DPF if you want to discuss this with him. Stop wasting my (and many others) bandwidth.

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  402. Roark (77 comments) says:

    Burt, Fuck off you little piece of shit. I’ll ask the questions I want and you will shut the fuck up unless you want to contribute something sound. Unless you’ve become a moderator on this blog? I don’t think so. David is too smart to offer a worthless fucktard such as yourself such rights.

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  403. Peak Oil Conspiracy (2,772 comments) says:

    Insolent Prick:

    Thanks for your well-reasoned points. I quite agree that the investigative role should vest in the Electoral Commission, but in my view, the Police should be required to “have regard to” any recommendation from the EC.

    Just to explain my earlier cryptic comment, I was thinking of the section 59 debate, and the “compromise” SOP introduced – ostensibly to appease National. All that SOP did was confirm the Police’s prosecutorial discretion.

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  404. burt (7,093 comments) says:

    Roark

    Hissy fits suit you Roark. Use to getting your own way I guess, earn yourself some more demit points Roark, then blame DPF after you have abused anyone who challenges your god given right to take the thread off topic. Your are the man – don’t stop now.

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  405. Roark (77 comments) says:

    Burt. You’re a bitch – go whining to DPF like he’s your daddy – did you even know your daddy burt? I don’t think so and yes Burt I am the man compared to you, you sniveling little excuse for a human being. Are you on welfare by any chance? It’s just you behave like a selfrighteous thief.

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  406. burt (7,093 comments) says:

    Roark

    Selfrighteous thief’s is the topic of this thread – you are getting back on track but stop equating the topic with me – I’m not the Labour party.

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  407. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “[DPF: Yes well asking people if they are child rapists does drag you down to their level. Actually asking people if they are child rapists is worse than trying to link me to neo nazis]”

    You let D4J roam your blog with impunity abusing everyone in sundry. He consistently disrupts otherwise reasonable threads with his purile invective so I have a little fun with him occasionally – otherwise is presence here would have no redeeming feature at all.

    I mean fuck – who really thinks that D4J’s a paedophile – given the context of the question it should be obvious that I didn’t. But then again your blog yada yada – ban all the lefties as you see fit.

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  408. Roark (77 comments) says:

    Burt, you seem like a labour party hack to me, or a national party hack. It’s all the same. Why don’t you fuck off with your smug, banal lickspittle ignorance and let the adults talk? You’re a bore and a fool, Burt. David, why do you let trolls like Burt post here?

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  409. burt (7,093 comments) says:

    In chirps roger nome with his famous 4 year old logic.

    D4J did it too, it’s not fair to just punish Roark !

    Hey roger, who’s blog is it and who runs the demerit system – and I’ll happily take a hit on the points for being off topic now to point out that you are being a baby, a bit like your mate Roark. Take it up with DPF via email, his contact details are available.

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  410. burt (7,093 comments) says:

    Roark

    Do you think 150 amendments to electoral finance laws at the last minute would be acceptable to you if they were made by National?

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  411. Peak Oil Conspiracy (2,772 comments) says:

    Hmmm… this thread’s turning into a flamewar. I thought flamethrowers were illegal? :)

    Just to expand on my “have regard to” comment.

    The EC is clearly better-placed than the Police to investigate alleged (or apparent) breaches of electoral finance legislation. But, ultimately, it’s the Police who will prosecute any offence under that legislation. So that’s why I favour the Police having some prosecutorial discretion. But that’s not an open chequebook by any means: the Police should be required to properly consider any EC recommendation and the basis for it (no snow-job permitted).

    I acknowledge some will argue the Police have practically disqualified themselves from making politically neutral judgments about who should and should not be prosecuted. But those were offences investigated by the Police. In this case the offences would be investigated by an expert body. So the Police would surely be on a hiding to nothing if they polititely dismissed (or ignored) the findings of a detailed dossier provided by the EC.

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  412. Peak Oil Conspiracy (2,772 comments) says:

    Oh, and Roark, http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/demerits (look under “current suspensions”).

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  413. Roark (77 comments) says:

    Burt you fucktard – that moron roger is not my mate and I don’t give a toss about the EFB because it won’t change a thing about this corrupt system. You’re a fool if you think that faggot Key is going to make any difference to the PC commie state we’re stuck with. Why don’t you fuck off and take your pinko views with you.

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  414. Roark (77 comments) says:

    Thanks POC. I asked a simple question and I have to take BS from Burt? I’m glad to see not everyone commenting here is an ignoramus.

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  415. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Roark – what a beautiful creature you are hey?

    Burt – Remeber what I told you yesterday? Do try not to be so bloody repetitive and boring. oh, and mind your own business – I was talking to david not you.

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  416. Roark (77 comments) says:

    Nome, sarcasm is the lowest form of humour. I suspect that it’s your best shot. Fool.

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  417. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    You want more attention roark? Ok, how about…. go and spread your misery somewhere else you angry, pathetic little man? Go on now and play with D4J in the troll’s pit, where you can bite and scratch each other to your hearts are content.

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  418. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    “You let D4J roam your blog with impunity abusing everyone in sundry.”

    Nome, you damned fool. D4J cops it from everyone for his behaviour including DPF. IIRC he has been banned before. If you didnt say it you wouldn’t have been penalised. If you had apologised they may even have been lifted.

    DPF has put up with shit for longer than you have used the interweb, boy. To claim that all of a sudden he is crushing dissent is pathetic.

    Your sad little group want to feel like real victims dont you? Fuck!

    What is it with you insane adolescent lefty trolls?

    If it isn’t the Standard weirdos bleating on about not being able to thread jack and insulting the host with every post, it is Sam Dixon’s bizarre fixation on a couched dpf, or it is Tane jumping on every tiny little mistake or seeing massive conspiracies (just like in Hollow Men!!!!), or it is you whining that you are being treated so unfairly because you said only something quite abhorrent to civilised human beings.

    You guys are getting fucking SCARY!

    David Farrar is not your dad. You need to sort out those issues back in the real world.

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  419. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    Nome, sit back, breathe and contemplate the composition of your little group.

    Robert Owen – never said anything worthwhile, waste of text

    Robinsod – never said anything worthwhile, added zero to every debate he joined

    Sam Dixon – so fixated with the blog owner he defaced his wikipedia page, delusional enough to insist that it was the one armed man

    Tane – owns a blog purely for the stabling and nurturing of an army of trolls, claimed that KtB was a corrupt organisation because of $40 worth of ‘anonymous’ donations that were direct deposited into their accounts

    If you want to have any credibility left over to destroy yourself with Union-blowing propaganda-posts then you need to distance yourself from the loonier element of your clique.

    We on the Right heap shit on D4J, he often deserves it. You on the Left never criticise your own. You never seem to hold them accountable for their actions. Because, I think, you endorse them.

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  420. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “To claim that all of a sudden he is crushing dissent is pathetic.”

    Sorry kimble – that’s certainly how it’s looking from the outside.

    http://kiwiblogblog.wordpress.com/2007/12/04/whos-the-next-leftie-to-be-banned/

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  421. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    Nome, you arent he outside. No one who comments at Kiwiblog is.

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  422. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    Would you own the comments of Robinsod or Robert Owen?

    Would you own the actions of Sam Dixon?

    Do you REALLY think DPF bans only those that are presenting arguments too good to refute?

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  423. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    HE hasnt banned you, and you have only received demerits because you said something really fucking bad.

    If DPF is getting rid of those that represent a genuine threat to his national PR effort (if you insist), then why go after Robinsod or Robert Owen?

    Those guys were abusive nut jobs that would put any wavering voter squarely in the National camp.

    Is Robinsod and Robert Owen really the best you lot have?

    I have NEVER seen DPF edit a post, delete a post, demerit or ban a user for simply arguing a point. Never. I doubt I ever will.

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  424. Kimble (4,095 comments) says:

    For those that dont know, kiwiblogblog (I have just visited it) is a typical copy-blogs that thinks Kiwiblog is purely a National spin machine.

    They suck up to Jordan something fierce, and, like the Standard, they to consider their blog as the place where polite rational political discussion happens. But it never does.

    Of course that is going to be the case. You see, they come here to spew their vitriol, get abused for it, then go back to their little pity-hut and complain about Kiwiblogs low standards and console each other over being victims of political persecution.

    It never occurs to them that the only apparent reason for their existence is to automatically take the opposite side to whatever Kiwiblog says. They dont understand that saying “Left” to every Kiwiblog “Right” is not rational debate.

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  425. Peak Oil Conspiracy (2,772 comments) says:

    I’m going to weigh in on this debate.

    DPF, in my opinion, is balanced and restrained in his approach to moderation. The fact that he had to introduce moderation at all should be cause for reflection.

    Take this thread:

    Sonic, like a yappy dog, slips in an early non-comment:
    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/12/over_150_last_second_amendments.html#comment-377312

    But he wasn’t demerited on that occasion. And there was only one other post from Sonic, responding in kind to one of his many critics. Sonic’s the same commentator who nagged DPF to blog about National’s foreign affairs policy. When DPF did, Sonic had nothing constructive to offer, other than his usual smeers. Despite being a repeat offender, Sonic’s never banned from Kiwiblog (as far as I’m aware).

    And Phillip John, like it or not The Standard initially claimed to be on a mission to “reclaim” the blogosphere. And one need only view this gem from Sam Dixon (which I won’t post here): http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=798#comment-7637 to see a fairly representative comment on that blog.

    For a left-leaning blog with some sort of respectability, I’m afraid it’s a plug for Public Address and, going by performance to date, a brickbat for The Standard and Kiwiblogblog (although, thankfully, I see Mardypants is now advocating more restraint all round).

    But as far as DPF is concerned, I think he’s doing a decent job of managing a vitrolic blogspace (while attending to his professional commitments).

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  426. Chicken Little (793 comments) says:

    Hear,hear POC and Kimble.

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  427. Pascal (2,015 comments) says:

    Paul: I tried to buy a t-shirt in NY the other week from Barak Obama’s fund raisers. I had to put my name and address among other details down, and it is all independently tracked.

    Do not neglect to mention that this is part of Obama’s campaign and is part publicity stunt. There is no governmental regulation to put your details down to purchase a t-shirt.

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  428. Fred (176 comments) says:

    Watched the coverage of Parliament last night. Turei said that the opposition to the bill was whipped up by Boscowan’s big money (as if the opposition was an example of the kind of thing that needed to be stopped) and as if those that oppose the bill can’t think for themselves. Displaying sheer arrogance. “The people out there don’t understand what we are trying to do” real animal farm stuff.

    Hobbs delivered a real tub thumper, also very revealing, saying that women are denied access to the big money that can buy elections. Well, if this is true, what does this bill do about it?

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  429. Pascal (2,015 comments) says:

    POC: DPF, in my opinion, is balanced and restrained in his approach to moderation. The fact that he had to introduce moderation at all should be cause for reflection.

    I agree. The only people copping demerits are the ones who deserve it for their behavior. You only need to look at how Philip John behaves to know the man is as venal as they get. He knowingly baits D4J and then is surprised when he gets an insane reaction. PJ probably teases animals and pulls the wings off flies when he has a chance too.

    It’s amazing the lack of accountability he shows too, eh? You would think that anyone with even a shred of integrity would have the courage to apologise, but not Philip John. He continues to fight, even when he is wrong and flings insults like a monkey flings faeces.

    One can but hope and dream that he’ll learn some manners at some stage in his life though.

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  430. Craig Ranapia (1,912 comments) says:

    Fred wrote:

    Watched the coverage of Parliament last night. Turei said that the opposition to the bill was whipped up by Boscowan’s big money (as if the opposition was an example of the kind of thing that needed to be stopped) and as if those that oppose the bill can’t think for themselves.

    Well, yes… and WTF was up with this press release from the Greens (http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0712/S00057.htm):

    Business Roundtable member behind attack on campaign finance reform

    Green Media Release 4th December 2007

    A member of the Business Roundtable is behind the marches against campaign finance reform says the Green Party. The man paying an organiser to run the marches against the Electoral Finance Bill, John Boscawen, is a member of the Business Roundtable, as well as a former Act Party fundraiser.

    “It is no surprise that a member of the Business Roundtable would pay someone to organise marches against campaign finance reform. Around the world, far right business groups oppose campaign finance reform because they want to be able to spend a lot of money to influence government policy,” says Dr. Russel Norman, green Party Co-leader.

    It’s no surprise to me that the Greens, like many other supporters of the EFB, should be dealing with their paranoia in a therapeutic setting and stay focused to meaningful campaign finance reform. This is as pathetic as ACT putting out a press releasedarkly muttering that some high profile supporters of the EFB have links to (shock!) the Greens and (horror!) various left-leaning trade unions and lobby groups.

    The only sane response is: Yeah, and your point is?

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  431. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    So which university is roger nome from? I just want to know, so my children don’t end up there.

    Great to see TVNZ’s clip of Key this morning “The first thing National will do is get rid of this legislation…..it’s gone!” For those who have been asking for National to clarify its stance, Key has!

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  432. Craig Ranapia (1,912 comments) says:

    Roger Nome wrote:

    “To claim that all of a sudden he is crushing dissent is pathetic.”

    Sorry kimble – that’s certainly how it’s looking from the outside.

    Cheese and crackers… Who’s going to tell Redbaiter and D4J (who’ve both attracted any number of demerits and suspensions here) they’re lefties? I would, but am not sure my health insurance covers third degree bile burns. :)

    I think DPF should take a harder line on the toxic waste wingnuts of all kinds but SFW? In a real sense, its like accepting an invitation to a party and spending the whole night bitching about the other guests and how horrible the music is. It’s DPF’s virtual living room, you agree to abide by his rules and if you don’t like it you’re free to point your browser elsewhere.

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  433. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    Re these changes to electoral law what concerns and annoys me is it’s yet another case of politicians passing important law just to suit themselves. Because there has not been a proper process of a Royal Commission followed by a long period of public debate before a bill is put through the Parliament. It is self serving and arrogant and highlights the need in this country for a written constitution. Now if that means we also become a republic then that is the course that should be followed.

    It simply isn’t good enough that a Government has been allowed to get away with passing a crucial piece of law such as this which was born out of it’s own paranoia.

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  434. Craig Ranapia (1,912 comments) says:

    And how typical is it that Nome, Tane, TomS et. al. would rather play the victim of a VRWC to ‘crush their dissent’, than ask themselves whether they’re just a wee bit responsible for the consequences of their own rhetoric. (And to be fair to Sonic, he can be a really interesting, provocative but reasonable contributor to discussions from a lefty perspective – whatever happened to that Sonic? I kinda miss him.)

    Oddly enough, I notice that Sonic and TomS tone it all the way down on Public Address. And I don’t think its because PAS is a mere lefty echo chamber – if it was, I’d have had my arse banned inside of ten minutes –, but they know Russell has precisely zero tolerance for the kind of bullshit (from either end) they get away with here. I don’t mean that as a dis on DPF, just that Russell has different standards for what he’s going to put up with in his virtual living room.

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  435. Manolo (12,641 comments) says:

    “So which university is roger nome from?” asks Inventory.

    The cunning nome sports a PhD in Advanced Nuclear Sciences from the University of Kabul. Ensure your children do not attend such enlightened house of learning.

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  436. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Criag – interesting point you raise. Perhaps DPF has been TOO tolerant here, and now that he is putting his foot down, those who have transgressed are quawking because they can’t get away with the crap they used to. There’s a big difference between freedom of speech and outright abuse or slander, and Stanley, Dad4J and roger nome all crossed the line last night.

    It’s odd – the lefties SAY they want debate and free speech, transperancy etc, but when push comes to shove, the true persona shows through.

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  437. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Pascal

    “There is no governmental regulation to put your details down” How was I to know. I was walking down Broadway, saw them selling t-shirts and the like and they said I needed to put my details down for any donations over $5. Was I going to stand on the street and argue with them, really classy look.

    Who really cares, it was a great joke present for my Republican buddie on the West Coast, he loved it.

    Back in NZ, $12,000 is no small amount and if you are not willing to put your name to your money, you don’t deserve to put up money.

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  438. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Manolo said “The cunning nome sports a PhD in Advanced Nuclear Sciences from the University of Kabul. Ensure your children do not attend such enlightened house of learning.”

    Darn it! There goes the plans I had for getting them schooled up at a good Islamic institution!!!

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  439. Craig Ranapia (1,912 comments) says:

    There’s a big difference between freedom of speech and outright abuse or slander, and Stanley, Dad4J and roger nome all crossed the line last night.

    QFT, Inventory. And as I said, I respect this is DPF’s blog and we all have to abide by his rules even if we’d do some things differently in his position. I also understand that – unlike some other blogs – David has practical and philosophical objections to being a micro-moderator or not having comments open at all. I just wish some folks – on both the loony left and the rabid right – would realize this is a privilege not an inalienable human right and just calm down. (And before anyone calls me a pompous hypocrite, yes I’m perfectly aware that I don’t always live up to my own standards. But at least I have standards.)

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  440. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Agreed Craig – this blog is DPF’s “house”, and the vast majority of us wouldn’t go into someone’s house and abuse either their host or his hospitality. Like you, I like to think I have standards, although I frequently fall short of them. My wife has a phrase from Ralph Waldo Emerson that she’s been using in her messages at church recently – “Who I am speaks so loudly you can’t hear what I’m saying” – I know it’s a bit deep and meaningful for this hour of the day, but there is a lot of truth in that!

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  441. Pascal (2,015 comments) says:

    Paul: Who really cares, it was a great joke present for my Republican buddie on the West Coast, he loved it. Back in NZ, $12,000 is no small amount and if you are not willing to put your name to your money, you don’t deserve to put up money.

    It seemed as if you cared. You certainly mentioned it enough. I thought it would be wise to clear up the little inaccuracy in your presentation of it however. I’m sure your intention wasn’t to deceive in general, though.

    $12,000 is no small amount, I agree. There are two thoughts around this for me. First is that as Erin Leigh and a number of earlier examples have shown us, if you dare to publically oppose this government you should expect backlash. Boscowan, for engaging in public and democratic action to oppose what he believes is a poor show by this government, is already having the Green smear machine retaliating against him by trying to create the impression that he is one of the big money, big business backers that attempt to steal elections. The right to remain anonymous protects citizens against a government that will vilify and react vindictively against anyone who opposes them.

    The Labour led government has shown us two things. The first is their reaction to dissent or criticism. Mallard’s cowardly attacks on public servants stands as one example, but there are many in the years that Labour have held power. To have your name attached as opposition to this government makes you vulnerable. It seems almost surreal writing that, but the real world examples show us that this is the case.

    The second is that they have no respect for electoral law, after all, they were the ones who ignored the Electoral Comission last election after indicating they would include all their spending and overspent by $800,000.00. They then went on to introduce retrospective legislation to legalize their illegal activities. No matter how people like Roger try to spin it, that is the one true example of electoral rorting in New Zealand.

    And these are the people asking us to trust them implicity when they re-write electoral law without proper bi-partisan support and public consultation? Imagine this happened anywhere else in the world bar a dictatorship. What do you think the reaction would be if the Republicans rewrote electoral law in the United States to unequivocially favour themselves?

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  442. NeilM (370 comments) says:

    “I just wish some folks – on both the loony left and the rabid right – would realize this is a privilege not an inalienable human right and just calm down.’

    Agreed. The KBB and Standard people are in a race with d4j to prove that their IQ is less than their age, which I estimate to be about 9 yrs.

    It’s worth keeping in mind though that they are in no way representative of Labour supporters. They’re a weird fringe.

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  443. bwakile (757 comments) says:

    It’s worth keeping in mind though that they are in no way representative of Labour supporters. They’re a weird fringe.

    neilm Could you please describe to us what a normal Labour supporter is.
    I suspect they may be normal people like us with a distaste for bad governence.

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  444. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    You’re right bwakile – many Labour people have a strong sense of right and wrong – like the ones who picked Russell Fairbrother to stand again in Napier, in opposition to and defiance of Head Office and the Parliamentary wing’s preference.

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  445. Adam Smith (879 comments) says:

    Paul Holmes on 2ZB indicated that Owen Glennie was paying Winston’s $157,000 illegal spend.

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  446. Buggerlugs (1,609 comments) says:

    Adam – you are kidding, right? What is Mr Glenn getting in return for his largesse towards the current Government and their poodles? Any investigative journos about?

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  447. Adam Smith (879 comments) says:

    Holmes, as part of a comment against the EFB, clearly said he understood Glennie was paying off the NZF debt.

    Another bauble for Winnie!!

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  448. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    So Winston’s comment to the NZ First conference that the money would be paid when a term deposit matured was a LIE? But isn’t Winston New Zealand’s only honest politician? I guess that if you sleep long enough in the pig-pen, you eventually stink!

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  449. slightlyrighty (2,448 comments) says:

    Will the proportion of the Tax dollars I have supplied to the government to use in their “public information campaign” via Government depts in election year be counted as part of my $12000??

    Actually, as a financial provider to the government coffers, can I make a declaration to the electoral commission regarding these “announcements?”. And if I did, would that limit the government to $120,000 during election year?

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  450. Nick C (340 comments) says:

    450 comments, that has to be a record, does it?

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  451. Lindsay Addie (1,107 comments) says:

    You guys have it all wrong, the great leader Helen Chavez-Putin in Parliament yesterday has clearly and decisively marked the path ahead for us all when dealing with the Electoral Finance laws:

    One expects people to read it carefully and to consult lawyers.

    So stop all this whinging and moaning and make an appointment with your lawyer right away!

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  452. PhilBest (5,112 comments) says:

    I just posted this at “The Standard”.

    171. PhilBest
    Dec 5th, 2007 at 12:44 pm

    It is just incredible that none of the regulars here seem willing to concede anything about just how bad the EFB is. Even the otherwise surprisingly decent Gruela.

    Suppose “Family First” does one leaflet drop nationwide. That’s their $120,000 gone. Then Labour attacks “Family First” in the media, getting wide press coverage for THEIR opinions, smearing “Family First”, Chris Trotter, Finlay MacDonald, John Minto, Tracey Watkins, et al lambast “Family First” in their columns, the Dompost Editorial likewise, and to add insult to injury, a 10 million dollar propaganda campaign by the Health Dept. does a whitewash of the “Family First” criticisms.

    Supposing much of this was unfair. What does “Family First” do now?

    (By the way, the above is pretty much what happened to the Exclusive Brethren. Even by reading “The Hollow Men”, I can see that these people, and Don Brash, have been set up by a campaign of lies about them. Read my post at 5.59 yesterday. No-one has addressed this point.)

    Back to “Family First” (or whoever). What do they do? Is THIS your idea of “levelling the playing field”? Gruela?

    If John Boscawen or someone ends up in Jail in the next few months, is he not a “political prisoner”?

    And by the way, I agree with Insolent Prick above, that if John Key tried to do ANYTHING LIKE this, he would lose the votes of all the regular rightwing contributors to these blogs AND we would be raising just as much of a storm over it. Plus, YOU GUYS would also be raising a storm over it instead of selling your souls and justifying it. Its called “principles”.

    I strongly suspect that the reason YOU’RE not worried is that you KNOW you have the relevant institutions so stacked that prosecutions carried out under this act will only ever be on a completely partisan political basis. Not unlike various “Police Investigations” for the last few years. (Again, see my post 5.59 yesterday).

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  453. Inventory2 (9,791 comments) says:

    Nick C said “450 comments, that has to be a record, does it?”

    3 comments per amendment – not a bad ratio eh!

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  454. krazykiwi (9,188 comments) says:

    So stop all this whinging and moaning and make an appointment with your lawyer right away!

    Mine moved to Sydney 4 months ago. Something to do with better opportunities/lifestyle.

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  455. Pascal (2,015 comments) says:

    Phil, my prediction is that you will receive a comment similar to “Tin. Foil. Hat.” from Tane along with general abuse and commentary that the aim of this bill is to prevent National from using big money to buy the next election.

    When of course, every rational person in New Zealand knows that the last election was purchased with big money that Labour thieved from the public purse.

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  456. Kent Parker (449 comments) says:

    Well said PhilBest. I think this blog has put too much emphasis on wacky interpretations of placard waving, when the real problems with this bill stem from such things as spending caps and the restriction period and what constitutes expense.

    What happens if someone contributes their time to an election campaign in some professional role like PR manager? Does their time have to be computed in market terms and added to the election spend, or are such professionals allowed to donate time? If it does have to be counted, then surely too does the salaries of MPs have to be counted as election spending because they will be spending inordinate amounts of time promoting a party? There are so many questions to be answered and so little time being allowed to answer them.

    This bill is a dog that needs a good long training run before it can be put out with the sheep.

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  457. Rex Widerstrom (5,129 comments) says:

    Buggerlugs asks:

    What is Mr Glenn getting in return for his largesse towards the current Government and their poodles? Any investigative journos about?

    Any halfway decent opposition political strategists about? No? Thought not, based on performance to date. Winston is a Minister… that makes him liable to answer Oral questions. Find some barely related topic for the main question and slip it in as a supplementary. We’d do it all the time before NZF swapped it’s testicles for baubles with first National, then Labour.

    The resulting uproar wakes up a sleeping Gallery – even those who’re aware but doing their best not to report it so as not to embarrass their favourite pollies.

    A few open questions to Mr Glennie wouldn’t go amiss, either.

    The media should do this stuff but rarely does – usually not because of an VRorLWC but because they’re under-resourced, underpaid and, in the main, inexperienced (why get paid $40k by Fairfax when you can get 3 times that in PR?). So it falls to the opposition parties to do it.

    Keys’ unequivocal “it’s gone” this morning is a start, but he’s lost a lot of political capital by soft-pedalling. His strategists have let him down badly… he’s not an attack dog by nature so a strategy needs to take account of that, but hasn’t.

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