Labour MP lashes out at political corectness

March 9th, 2008 at 10:20 am by David Farrar

Retiring MP Dover Samuels has lashed out at political corectness:

“We’ve got to learn to laugh at each other. This PC, culturally correct brigade will actually destroy our New Zealand lifestyle. There’s this inherent part of our country that is being destroyed because we’re becoming so PC.

“You’ve got these culturally correct loony tunes who think everything’s offensive come on, it’s time to wake up.

and

“The Treaty of Waitangi seems to be the antidote for everything from tagging to wagging school and colonisation which is absolute cultural bullshit.

“Frankly, I think a vast majority of Maori have had a gutsful of it, just like the average New Zealander that’s why I’m going to Australia.”

Samuels lashes the for their part in it, but as they have been in Parliament only two years it is hard to resist the conclusion that he is also sending a message to his own colleagues.

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273 Responses to “Labour MP lashes out at political corectness”

  1. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Well said Dover. You speak the truth, and that is a quality that has been starkly absent from NZ political debate for so long. Ever since the “progressives” became ascendant actually. …and I’ll take a Maori cowboy from Northland who occasionally pisses in hotel corridors any day over some slimy obsequious little Wellington “secular liberal” lawyer from the Rainbow faction and his totalitarian objectives and his 1984 style double speak and his politically correct thinking patterns and his Gramscian political agenda.

    Although you need to remember well the old adage Dover. “He who speaks the truth, must always have one foot in the stirrup”. Never truer since the Progressives have become politically ascendant. Good luck in Australia. (and that’s another thing you’re right about. There’s a lot of Maoris there who like you have had a gutsful of what’s happening in NZ)

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  2. Carole (7 comments) says:

    Thanks for some honesty and straight talking Dover.

    Why do they always wait until they retire to come out and say
    what we all know and want to hear from them, while they’re still on the job.

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  3. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    The marxist origins of political correctness and the adoption of it by the left is evidence of the left’s sinister and cynical agenda. Here is a short video of its origins. Here is an article.

    Many people are fooled by the fact the evil ones wrap up their various messages in the guise of “human rights.” We have seen this very thing in our own country, with anti-smacking, prostitution law reform, gay marriage and the ongoing march of radical feminism. To those people who remain fooled I say, unless you want to wake up one day and see your wonderful society transformed by this agenda, learn from history.

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  4. Murray (8,847 comments) says:

    He waits till hes LEAVING to say this?

    Its true, comedy is all about timing.

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  5. bwakile (757 comments) says:

    what a gutless wonder
    Suck on the tit then have a bite at it on the way out

    But at least it’s an honest parting shot

    People, follow Redbaiters advice and claim your language back

    make a “hero” someone who has served their country.
    Don’t turn a “smack” into a “beating”

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  6. helmet (807 comments) says:

    Yeah all those PC nutjobs who just won’t let a man have a slash in the hallway in peace.

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  7. Murray M (455 comments) says:

    A big part of the reason I am leaving. I pay $400 a week in tax, I wouldn’t mind but to see it blatantly wasted on racial and PC issues, fuck that, the Aussie govt can have it. I am sick and tired of the “you earn, you pay it” response. Why the fuck should I. I’m not using anymore govt funded services than any other fucker. In fact, as a single, childless individual I am more than likely using less.

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  8. battler (116 comments) says:

    Rebaiter- other MP’s have been highlighting this for some time now-

    “GERRY BROWNLEE (Deputy Leader—National) : Anyone observing the House this afternoon would have been struck by the absolute mess that the House had got itself into for the simple reason that the Prime Minister does not want to acknowledge that what John Tamihere said in the Investigate article is true. The Prime Minister wants to pretend that somehow Mr Tamihere is the one who is different, not her close cabal of advisers.

    For years National MPs have been saying things about Labour Ministers, the inside workings of the Labour Party, and the advice stream on the ninth floor along the lines of what Mr Tamihere said in Investigate magazine. Those things have not been picked up on because we are in Opposition, and they are what anybody would expect to hear from an Opposition. But that man is on the inside. That man has said that it looks rosy on the outside, but it is not rosy on the inside. Because he is saying what is actually happening, and because he has exposed the truth of how the Labour Party reaches its decisions and of how the Prime Minister decides what she will or will not support, it has a greater resonance.

    Not one member of the Labour Government should be comforted by the way in which the editorials, the talkbacks, the smoko rooms, and the households of this country have embraced with some relief the fact that someone has finally told them what is really going on inside the Labour Party. As for the great support that the Prime Minister claims for her party, the editorials are right, too—it is a thin veneer of support because the Government likes to tell people what they should think. New Zealanders are good people. They are prepared to give people the benefit of the doubt, but they will not be happy to finally learn what drives this current Government, what motivates Helen Clark, and what sort of disciplined structure operates inside the environment of the caucus and Cabinet.

    Mr Dunne, who has just resumed his seat, must be one of the duped whom Mr Tamihere talked about when he spoke of the deception that Michael Cullen puts across minor parties in this House. Mr Dunne stood here today and said that the Government does not fund some 97,000 diabetics appropriately, but, at the same time, he chooses to support the Government when it chooses to fund sex-change operations in our public hospitals, instead. The United Future Party might want to say that the John Tamihere issue is of no great moment. But it, of course, was the sensible party that wanted New Zealanders to hear things the way that they really are.

    I ask just how safe Helen Clark is today as leader of the Labour Government—and Labour members will be up now, one after the other, to endorse her. Mr Tamihere has told her that he has solid support from 10 members and support from 15 others on any given day. Half of the Labour caucus has the jury out on the Prime Minister. She has seized upon this opportunity to try to put in the wedge to cement her position. But no matter what sort of an apology Mr Tamihere might like to put out there, we know that he will not deny the truth of what he has told Investigate magazine. He will not deny that the Prime Minister has a problem with the support systems in her office, he will not deny that Mr Cullen regularly puts it across supporting parties, and he will not deny that the Labour Party is overly dominated by union influences and the gay lobby—and that they are all pandering to Māori interests in this country.

    That is not where mainstream New Zealanders are. I make one response to Mr Hide’s speech: he is right. Helen Clark has no idea of what it is like to work out whether the mortgage can be paid at the end of the month, whether school uniforms can be afforded, or whether new shoes can be bought for the kids when they go into their winter sport—or what it is like to stand on the sideline on a cold Saturday morning at sports. But Mr Hide should mark my words; there will be photographs of the Prime Minister doing exactly that. They will be put out there from the ninth floor spin machine within a week. That is the way Labour members operate—duplicitously.”

    “JUDITH COLLINS (National—Clevedon) : It was very kind of Minister Maharey to prove once and for all for anyone listening that John Tamihere was right. I must say it is awfully nice when he hands us a freebie like that and admits that we will be the ones forming Cabinet after the next election, not his lot.

    Dr Wayne Mapp: A motley crew!

    JUDITH COLLINS: Yes, an absolute motley crew.

    On a more serious note, what we heard from Mr Maharey—we know it is all smarmy and of no substance—is in fact what this Government is doing to the people of New Zealand. John Tamihere was right on a lot of points. One of the points he made that was absolutely right was that this Labour Government spends so much time pandering to a couple of its special interest groups—the unions, gays, and Māori rights people—that it completely ignores the very people who pay for all the services that the Government gets to hand out. Those people are the taxpayers of this country—the middle New Zealanders. For the benefit of those members over there, who would not know an ordinary middle New Zealand person if they fell over him or her, I point out that those middle New Zealanders are the people who pay their taxes, go to work, raise their own children, look after their kids, and put their kids first.

    John Tamihere said that Helen Clark and her very, very staunchly feminist cabal would not know about taking the kids to sport on Saturday. We need look no further than the Families Commission, which was, of course, brought about by United Future’s deal with Labour. United Future was duped into signing up to it—and to a definition of family that meant whatever one happens to think it might be. It could be a gang, one’s mates, or whatever. The Family Commission is having a big opening in Auckland for one of its big projects, and it is having it on Saturday morning when ordinary New Zealanders take their kids to sport. That is what families do.

    What did Mr Tamihere say about this Government? He said: “I tell you what, if I was on the other side mate I’d have cut the”—and he used a bad word—“Labour Party to pieces over moral issues. There’s a huge pendulum swing against what my leadership stands for.” That is what he said about Helen Clark, and that is what he said about the Labour Party. The reason he said that is because, as Mr John Carter said—and he is absolutely right—it is true. The Labour Party despises the very people who vote for it. If we need any confirmation of that, let us hear some of the words of the honourable Minister Ruth Dyson. She talked in the House, back in September 2002, about women going out to work and doing jobs like cleaning or, what she called, “degrading low-paid work” and “low-end, dead jobs”. I said then, and I will say it again, to that Minister, to that party, and to the people who have never done a 3 o’clock shift in the morning with little babies who cannot sleep, that the people who do that sort of work are not low-grade people and they do not do low-grade work. They are people who earn their right to vote in this country, and they earn their right to be taken seriously.

    The Labour Government has Ministers like David Benson-Pope, who would not know a hard day’s work if he fell over it. If Labour members actually took these ordinary people seriously, they would stop pandering to the little special-interest groups that they think they have to win over. That is all Labour thinks about. It does not care about the people working in the factories. It does not care about the people who actually do the work. The only thing the Government cares about is sucking people into the unions and sucking them into thinking they have to vote Labour. Well, they do not have to vote for Labour. Help is on the way, and it is in the form of the National Party, and they should be really pleased. The reason for that is that we value work and we value the people who actually do it.”

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  9. vto (1,131 comments) says:

    I have found over the recent years that a great way to counter (and antagonise) the PC lot is to ignore them and simply say, and do, what you think. Provided you are doing no harm to anyone then there is no problem. I take the PC lot head-on frequently.

    Stand up for what you believe in and your honesty and truthfulness. Argue back vehemently. Take pride in your beliefs and the values you have that have been instilled through your upbringing. Remember, PC is the anomoly in human history, not the other way around.

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  10. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Poor Dover now he is bailing out he is getting a big dose of the conscience guilts. Sick bastard too late now. Eat your wretched hat you nitwit git . The question is how long will it take to undo all the damage that a pc , namby pamby bunch of demented socialist suckholes have caused? Remember the humpty dumpty story and all the Queen’s spittles couldn’t put her back again. Stealth socialism under the murky cloud of pc bullshit !!!

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  11. kiwitoffee (383 comments) says:

    Mr Samuels makes a very good point.

    He seems to have not contributed much to public debate during his time in Parliament but it pleasing to see him speak frankly about a pervasive issue which affects all NZers. His comment about many Maori leaving for Australia because they dislike the PC crusade is very interesting and, I suspect, largely true.

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  12. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    If I were to meet Dover in the street I would say “Dover – even though you have done absolutely nothing since you have been in parliament and you have been a slack lazy prick, and even though you should have told the truth years ago if for no other reason than to help your own ethnic group, at least you have now expressed what probably 90% of New Zealanders really think.”

    He very, very late but at least its true – something many in labour dont like.

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  13. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    What an absolute load of bollocks.

    Political Correctness is the catchphrase for those whom don’t actually know that they are saying, that is they are looking for a all encompassing battle cry that is a scapegoat.

    “Frankly, I think a vast majority of Maori have had a gutsful of it” What has he had a guts full of. People using the baselessly using the Treaty for all of the ills in this country? Those who claim that political correctness is the at the ills of the country lack imagination and intelligence to understand what is exactly bugging them.

    When he means we have to learn to laugh at each other, what does he mean. Do we laugh at the littl old lady tripped up on the sidewalk. Do we laugh at the handicapped kids at the mall. Do we laugh at the person with a massive stutter. Do we laugh at the darkie in the predominately white central otago, do we laugh at the women in the rugby club with their boots on?

    What exactly does he mean? It’s a completely vacuous statement, in which he really isn’t saying what he means. He’s the one being disingenuous.

    “You’ve got these culturally correct loony tunes who think everything’s offensive come on, it’s time to wake up”

    Give us an example ya bugger. Again you attack PC and you have little idea of what you are saying, or you lack the conviction to say what you actually mean. I mean if you really do want to laugh at the kid with rampant acne, or you do want to laugh at the folk coming out of the half way house, or do you really want to have a go at the little lady playing rugby instead of making the sandwiches in the kitchen? Either say what you actually mean or shut the F up you twat.

    “They want to take us back in history and blame somebody”

    Again what the hell do you mean? The mouth is moving but nothing is coming out. Who is blaming who for what? If its about the climate, well it’s in one hell of a mess and someone did it. If it’s about the treaty, well his govt has created the first modern grievance with the Foreshore and Seabed decision riding rough shot over the courts rulings.

    But then we finish with the flag waving and false hope crap. What would hauling the flag up the mast each day do. And no we are not all New Zealanders? Some oar Canadian, some Sri Lankan, English, Polish, Pacific Islander etc etc. We all live here and some are “Kiwi” some aren’t get over yourself. Your antiquated ideals of homogonised society hasn’t worked in the past, and won’t work in the future.

    He completely contradicts himself with his last statement. “I will never be an Australian”, why not you expect everyone who lives here to be all New Zealanders, so why aren’t you standing up for your convictions, and become an australian. So what’s it to be Dover, are we all Kiwis and you to be an Aussie, or are we allowed to retain our identity and you too in Australia.

    Your doing the Kiwi equivalent of retiring to Florida by going to the Sunshine Coast, it’s nothing new and good luck to him. But once again a politician can’t resist keeping their mouths shut when there is nothing to say.

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  14. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Murray M

    Good luck mate, but one feels that under the Labour govt over there that is interested in trying to fix the ails of the Aboriginal community, there will be some of your money going on racial issues.

    That is the problem when you live in a society that pays tax. I could suggest some foreign tax haven, as then you have no complaints, otherwise there will always be money spent on things you disagree with.

    It’s a bugger living with other people isn’t it.

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  15. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    barry

    “expressed what probably 90% of New Zealanders really think” What is it they think, he said nothing except that he doesn’t like other people.

    What did he say? He said nothing.

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  16. enough rope (104 comments) says:

    Dover Samuels = “Taito” Philip Field’s staunchest supporter.
    “Political correctness” in this case is nothing more than the the last political gasp of an opportunistic scoundrel.

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  17. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Paul, PC is partly responsible for gangs in control of prisons and rampant child abuse statistics.

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  18. PaulL (5,981 comments) says:

    Paul – he’s outside the tent now is he? Fair game now? Labour MPs can do no wrong, until the moment they say what they really think, and suddenly everything they say is wrong. After this election I predict a complete implosion within Labour – and a return to “common sense.”

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  19. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    No dad,

    gangs and the criminal justice system would be to blame if indeed they were responsible for gangs controlling the prisions. You of course are completely wrong and the last time I or anyone looked the gangs were NOT running the prisons. And people acting violently towards children are responsible for child abuse, not Political Correctness.

    How can words be responsible for these things you claim. Why don’t you actually say what you mean instead of hiding behind the slating of a catchphrase. Because in my world there is no way that words could run a prison or harm children physically.

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  20. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Paul, If you’ve ever bothered to follow the link to my blog, you will see that I am in no way shape or form a supporter of the Labour party, and I haven’t voted for them for one hell of a long time, so out of the tent or not, if an MP says something so meaningless as this of course I will make a comment.

    What did he actually say, because he sure as hell didn’t have the conviction to say anything meaningful.

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  21. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Paul, the pc culturally sensitive approach has allowed criminality the upper hand in the fight against law and order.

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  22. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Dad,

    back that up. What do you mean?

    The statistics don’t show that this country is out of control. But crime has risen since time began, and can you really see a time when crime will go away. It would be nice, but unless you take away the reasons people commit crime you will never get rid of crime.

    The punish them to death brigaded has tried for millennia and they still haven’t rid society of crime, so perhaps there could be another way.

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  23. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Paul, crime such as child abuse can only be achieved by zero tolerance policy. Reoffending rates do indicate the present judicial system and its PC behaviour therapy programmes are allowing criminals to manipulate the system, for example the Burton case.

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  24. Chicken Little (741 comments) says:

    But crime has risen since time began

    In your own words Paul – back that up.

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  25. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “if an MP says something so meaningless as this of course I will make a comment.”

    Actually, five comments and thousands of words. Funny that, when at the same time you claim Samuels said nothing meaningful. Only an extreme leftist could be guilty of such insane self contradiction.

    Your problem with Dover is not that he said nothing, its that you don’t approve of what it was he said. In fact, he’s driven you crazy by finally speaking out. So crazy you’ve made five posts and frantically written line after line of incomprehensible gibberish.

    Dover has had it with Progressives like you and Klark Paul, and apparently, so has a large sector of the NZ public. Many more NZers are soon going to be saying the same kind of “nothing” as Dover. So get used to it arsehole, and get a damn grip. Spare Kiwiblog readers the endless PC outrage. Boring schmoring.

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  26. PaulL (5,981 comments) says:

    Paul, Dover Samuels has been dead wood as long as he was in Labour, he is still dead wood now that he has left. He isn’t articulate enough to say what he really means, and the journalists who interview him aren’t articulate enough to write it down even if they understood it.

    I think Dover is reflecting on the stifling red tape, tall poppy, impossible to succeed, odds stacked against me sense that has pervaded NZ, and in particular Maori society. The incentives to do well have been kicked out at the same time as the supports that would enable someone to succeed have been dumbed down. Our education system is less focused on excellence, other than sport we care less than we ever have about being good at whatever we do (arguably we care less in sport than we used to as well). Sure, there are those who continue to raise their kids with a view to excellence, but unless you make an effort then mediocrity is what you will learn, if even that. The mindset just isn’t there any more, and a small country at the arse end of the world needs to be more than just average – we need the classic Kiwi can-do attitude. Unfortunately I find more Kiwi can-do attitude in Australia than I do in NZ these days.

    I remember being between Aus and NZ around the last olympics. Australia was fully behind their team, success was what they demanded. Lay down Sally was pilloried for giving up – that was completely unacceptable. They took home a huge haul of medals. In NZ we seemed to be pretty happy that our team had showed up, and got to a few finals. There was no expectation that we’d win anything so far as I could tell. I’m not that big on sport – I’d rather play it than watch it – but I think it serves as an indicator of the rest of our society.

    Edit: typo

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  27. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Paul, it does not help when victims of crime receive little in the way of financial compensation, but homicidal maniacs can get huge payouts for injured feelings from the PC trany granny HRRT !!!!

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  28. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    No Dad that is wrong. That is going after the problem once it has happened. To say that you want to do something about it once it has happened is defeatist, and tells me that you aren’t interested in stopping the crime.

    This isn’t a bloody chicken and egg scenario. Well it is in that there is a clear cause and outcome, but punishing the outcome you are not stopping the cause. So me anywhere in the world where true retibutionist approach to crime has resulted in zero crime and I might start to believe your claims.

    But what the hell do you mean by PC behavior. By adding those two letters your statement isn’t reinforced, it’s empty.

    The burton case has been shown to be a failure in systems and humans. We are humans and there will always be mistakes, but we would hope that we are intelligent beings enough to learn from that. So 66% or whatever the figure is, of offenders reoffend. Do we then punish the 33% whom don’t? Pretty vindictive way to approach things.

    I wonder when the guy who killed the tagger comes up for parole will you be asking for him to say in prison for the full term. Most of the country doesn’t want him to go to jail?

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  29. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Paul of Linwood, it is pointless debating with such wayward leftist mentality. PC will just keep on while dover scuttles away on a grand pension. Hope he doesn’t piss in to many Ocker hotels and his hat will help keep the blow flies away if he dangles a couple million corks from it.

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  30. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Paul, if you follow the links I posted above you’ll see the real goal of PC is to attack the family unit. It’s a long-term cross-generational project. The fact most of its proponents don’t understand the agenda doesn’t make the agenda disappear.

    The reason why they want to attack the family unit is because it’s the most cohesive support structure for individuals in society. If you destroy that then you leave individuals with no other choice but to turn to the govt.

    The designers advance their objective by creating social movements such as gay rights and feminism, which purport to the uninformed to be advancements in social justice. In reality they undermine the institutions that stand in the way of the communist-inspired goal.

    Their tactics include: populate the educational institutions with their proponents (visited a university lately?), accept the validity of no view other than their own, attack those who propound other views (watch the idiots accuse me of being homophobic or anti-women).

    In anticipation of their attack, I just ask them this. Does feminism try to discredit the idea of love and marriage? If so, and it has been “discredited” (congratulations), then what do women have left to exchange for love but sex? Do they think then that maybe this could explain why we see today so many young women who are unnaturally obsessed with appearance and who offer their bodies to all and sundry?

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  31. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Dad it is not for the criminal justice system to pay compensation. So we are almost getting somewhere almost, but then you just had to use PC again. SO what you are saying is, is that victims of crime should get payouts – possibly, but from whom? It’s something to look at, but I’m sure there will be those on the right whom will feel a little aggrieved that a Mongrel Mob member shot at by another gang member is about to get a pay out.

    Is the guy who killed the tagger a homicidal maniac? And if he gets the shit beaten out of him while in prison, isn’t he suddenly a victim too? Then isn’t he entitled to the victim payout fund that you would like to see. If not why not.

    Say what you actually mean instead of hiding behind the two letters PC and then we may get somewhere.

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  32. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Reid,

    Thank you for that reading material. Is that a per reviewed article in which the assertions are looked at critically by others. There seems to be some conflict in some of the claims. For instance some claim that the term originated from Mao, so I’m taking the rest of the article with a little pinch of salt, but kept reading.

    As for the over zealous actions of various councils around the world (and surprisingly in that bastion of absolute freedoms the US), whom also hide behind the term (it happens on both sides), they are hardly responsible for the destruction of the family unit.

    Why aren’t the rights of others equal to the rights of the family unit? Because you say so. That’s hardly a reason?

    As for your analysis of the state of womenhood, should we not look at the commercial pressures piled on young girls every day. I wouldn’t think that it is the feminists who are telling the young girls that the emaciated bints in magazines are the ones whom you should be looking like.

    Sorry mate, I understand you have concerns for the family unit, but the reasons you give just don’t seem to hold true.

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  33. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    So dad,

    you engaged in debate up to a point then did the usual nose dive into profanity and abuse. What the hell is up with you man.

    Brits living in NZ are able to claim a pension while living here, are we to stop that? If the man has the right to a pension, then he has the right to a pension.

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  34. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Oh grow up you socialist nerd Paul, PC is just the new face of socialist mind control.

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  35. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Says who and how do you base that claim, you’re ranting now mate. Come on try your convictions and actually have an argument with someone instead of abusing them.

    There is conservative or right wing Political Correctness, so what do you mean?

    By the way , Socialist Nerd is actually a good term, isn’t it?

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  36. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    That’s not abuse Paul.Toughen up Brokeback Canada. The day of the compromise and weak willed men is over. As a staunch politically incorrect conservative soldier I will settle for nothing but victory over what I believe is the insidious new age socialist disease of PC.

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  37. helmet (807 comments) says:

    Paul- I was reading your posts and thought about what Dover might be getting at with his PC complaints or if he is in fact talking about “nothing at all”, and wondered, would Billy T James’ humour would be tolerated today?

    I thought all his Maori jokes were funny, and people could have a laugh at themselves, but if I were heard telling one today at the office there’d be a hell of a stink. I’m Maori by the way, which arguably makes the offensiveness of the comments even lower.

    Maybe that’s the sort of cultural change that Dover’s alluding to?

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  38. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    But Helmet,

    isn’t that exactly what makes us human. We move on. Because one Maori made jokes about being Maori doesn’t give us the right to make Maori jokes.

    But we do have today’s Billy T, the Naked Samoan’s and Bro Town. We have moved on from racism, it’s not a good thing, and we are still allowed to be critical.

    I have no problem with Maori, Irish, Handicapped etc etc jokes, just what is the point in offending someone for the sake of trying to be funny?

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  39. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    It shouldn’t be against the law to “offend” anyone. That you keep wittering on about this and endlessly whining about perceived “abuse” like some typical little dumbfuck left wing toady that shows how deeply immersed in PC culture you are. And you don’t even know it. You blather on endlessly about wanting PC explained to you. Just look at yourself you pain in the arse pompous prick. You’re PC personified.

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  40. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    But then, why is it up to us to interpret what he said.

    Why didn’t he just say what he means instead of hiding behind a term he knows will get the masses nodding (un)knowingly.

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  41. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    I thought PC meant puking communists.

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  42. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Red of course it shouldn’t be against the law to offend someone, did I say that, certainly not.

    But then why would you want to offend anyone, seems like a strange way to get along.

    Seems with the outburst you managed to spew from your keyboard, you have no problem with offending people. But then I’d love to know if you were of our convictions enough to say that to my face, I doubt it very much.

    So you haven’t added anything to the debate except to show that your inability to participate in the human race is only superseded by your ability to be an abusive ass. Nice one mate, not even the slightest ability to argue your convictions without vitriol, and in the end that wasn’t argument, just abuse. pathetic.

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  43. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    And if I am PC personified, the one who didn’t abuse or belittle anyone here tonight with the vigor of you guys, that makes PC a bad thing???

    I’ve stood here and argued my point to the end without resorting to the all too easy abuse, what have you done.

    You’ve neither defended the anti-PC brigade or established what PC is, except we don’t abuse people, and that’s a bad thing?

    Besides which you bleat on about the criminals etc etc and yet it was the PC bugger who wasn’t engaged in the abusive comments? Seems to be contradictory?

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  44. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Dad did you think that one all on your own, it’s kinda funny. You worked with a play on words, except the problem is that communism isn’t a bad word, well no less a bad word than Jew or Arab.

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  45. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Paul, hope you looked at the video as well, the article was just a short summary for those without 22 minutes to spare for this fairly important subject.

    I agree expressions in media also influence behaviour. I never said nor implied that PC is the only factor that is used to drive toward this objective.

    Re: the family unit, how do you figure that defending that equates to attacking the rights of others? Please explicate.

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  46. helmet (807 comments) says:

    Fair enough Paul, thanks for taking the time to answer.

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  47. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “I’ve stood here and argued my point to the end”

    You’ve merely made empty assertion after empty assertion after empty assertion. There’s nothing wrong with opinion, as long as its not claimed to be argument. You’ve not argued anything Paul. All you’ve done is complained about what Dover, myself and other posters have said and the manner in which we have have said it. That’s Political Correctness Paul. You’re drowning in it, especially with your edict that anyone who doesn’t share you pathetic tiny minded views on the issue “can’t participate in the human race”. That’s exactly what PC is you fool. Attempting to exclude from the debate those who don’t share your own views. You don’t speak for the human race Paul, just a numb nutted fucked in the head PC progressive part of it.

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  48. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Reid it’s not an important subject and as I am about to serve up the family roast, there is no way I am subjecting myself to what I imagine I will see, considering I had difficulties with the content and conclusions of the article. But I will to be fair (god knows why).

    BTW the documentaries of an angry Cuban are hardly going to be subjective. Well no more subjective than the McCarthy trials were. For every disgruntled Cuban you throw at me, I could throw a happy cuban, but then that has nothing to do with PC. To resort to the use of PC in the way that article does, suggests that the author has no ability to argue what they actually mean.

    What I want to know is, why do you argue that the Family Unit has rights greater than others? Because if you are arguing that, then those not in a ‘family unit’ for any reason what so ever, could then as vigorously and rightly argue that their rights are as if not more important than that of the family unit.

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  49. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    So just because you don’t like what I am saying, it’s not argument, just because you say so.

    I asked what is the man really saying, and then dad went off in some rant about the criminal justice system which I engaged with him. If that isn’t argument just because you didn’t like the reply doesn’t mean it’s not argument.

    No you are wrong. What I say is that if you want to be antagonistic in the first instance it’s hardly the method of someone who wants to get on with people in the world. You are entitled to your opinion, but say something.

    But once again with the abuse you just look like the small minded and deeply abusive character that you are. I could easily descend into the verbal abuse that you are flying about, but then that’s not discourse it’s the precursor to violence.

    Fuck I’d love to meet you guys in a pub one day and see if the same words are repeated at me with such malice and see if you really think that a) you’re not offending someone or b) expecting no retribution. it’s so easy to hide behind the blog isn’t it.

    And once again to compliment me on being PC is fantastic thank you so much, I hope you have a happy night, you don’t seem to be.

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  50. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “you really think that a) you’re not offending someone”

    Don’t you get it?? I want to offend you. You typify the kind of person that has made NZ the homeland that Dover and so many others now want to leave. I have nothing but contempt for you and your ideas. I have nothing but disdain for your attempts to diminish the truth of Dover’s statements. Your attempts to denigrate him merely because he has broken with the progressives who control the Labour party make me especially contemptuous. I don’t want your kind to like me Paul. I want to offend you. If you are indeed offended, them I’m happy. The more of your kind I can offend, the happier I am. You and your ilk have ruined this country. Ask Dover if you ever see him in a pub. He’ll tell you.

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  51. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Besides, you people are blaming the PC brigade for the failings in the likes of the criminal justice system, yet resort to personal verbal abuse if you don’t like the argument.

    I hope you aren’t installing this virtue into your children, and if so we need not look any deeper into the ill’s of society than your own back yard. Because I don’t know about you, but I teach my children to question not to abuse. If you are installing the idea that abusing others is ok, then we are going to have a crap society.

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  52. Pharmachick (235 comments) says:

    Aside from the heated conversation going on between paul, redbaiter et al I’d like to add the following observation:

    I think that what Dover said is very true, very serious and that as a society all of NZ needs to start addressing these points.

    However, I also think that as an elected minister in NZ, Mr. Samuels has been mandated to bring these concerns to parliament and act on them for the good of his constituents and the greater NZ public for the *entire* time he’s been there in Welly.

    Whilst strongly agreeing with him, I am severely disappointed that he is only expressing these concerns now that he’s leaving.

    To me this indicates that one of the following is likely:

    1) our parliamentary system has been broken for quite a while when MPs cannot challenge rampant PC madness on behalf of their constituents and greater NZ society (FWIW I think that ~90% of the country *does* agree with Mr. Samuels that the PC culture has gone mad in NZ)

    or

    2) Mr. Samuels was never in parliament for his constituents anyway (… e.g. even back-benchers make a very comfortable living in $/annum in NZ? Not great on international scale, but pretty comfortable on the NZ scale; especially for a guy with some very young girlfriends).

    Just my 0.02

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  53. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    What fucking statements did Dover say?

    He said nothing except we should be New Zealanders, yet he doesn’t want to be an aussie when he moves there.

    Mate I don’t need or want to like you , but the way in which you are operating makes you no more valuable to society than the Waffen SS. Because you don’t like someone you abuse and belittle them.

    You are almost at the point though of an argument, what have I done to ‘ruin’ this country, lets start with that.

    As for you, would you ever stand in front of me and have the guts to say those things face to face (and don’t hide behind the bravado of the blog).

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  54. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “If you are installing the idea that abusing others is ok,”

    It is OK. Its free speech. A concept you and so many other fucked in the head progressives don’t give a fuck about.

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  55. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Pharmachick

    what the hell did he say? He made grandiose statements that really said nothing, but has obviously got the masses nodding.

    Something about the treaty, but nothing of any substance? IS he pissed that there is a grievance resolution process, or that it’s taking so long (his govt’s responsibility) what exactly?

    As for the “we are all NZers” we all are to a certain extent, but what does he mean by that. Does he want us to all start thinking like the kind folk of Central Otago who look at a brown face with caution (it’s true I’ve seen it with my own eyes this Waitangi weekend). Does he want us all to be rural, what???

    But then if he wants all immigrants to become ‘kiwi’, then why doesn’t he want to be an Aussie when he lives there, rather two faced don’t you think.

    tell us what your concerns are and we can talk about them.

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  56. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    ‘As for you, would you ever stand in front of me and have the guts to say those things face to face’

    I would actually. I’d start by pointing to your referencing of the Waffen SS at the same time as your implication that you would use violence to stop me saying things you find “offensive”. I’d hope to be able to make you aware of what a sad and stupid hypocrite you are.

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  57. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “tell us what your concerns are and we can talk about them.”

    She wants an argument. Not an appointment with a fucken psychiatrist.

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  58. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Well Red you have shown your self to be the arrogant cunt that you obviously are.

    It is not ok to offend others, and it is not free speech. Free speech by it’s literal interpretation does not give you or anyone the right to say things what will cause offense. to believe so shows any lack of willing to participate in society to a manner that doesn’t cause concern.

    Your freedoms are not greater than mine. Your freedom of speech is not greater than that of mine not to be offended.

    You are a funny guy, and I really hope that one day someone else doesn’t see their freedoms as greater than yours and tries to show you in an even greater and more violent manner than you have.

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  59. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    What fucking statements did Dover say?

    He said lots of Maori are moving to Aus because they disagree with people here. What this means, apart from “lots of Maori are pathetic losers,” only he can say.

    I have found over the recent years that a great way to counter (and antagonise) the PC lot is to ignore them and simply say, and do, what you think.

    You don’t say. Here’s a thought – you could simply say, and do, what you think anyway.

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  60. bringbackthebiff (99 comments) says:

    Regardless of all the crap splattered around these blogs. Fact remains kiwis have voted with their feet. I am one of them and quite happy in Oz.

    It is a sign of the wastefulness of the current govt that through its maori agency TPK spent kiwis money figuring out what all kiwis over here know. Kiwis of Maori descent and those not, get on better here than back home, why because there is no gravy train, no maori victim culture, its about work and get on. We identify with each other through our common heritage as New Zealanders. We all support the All Blacks and our respective S14 teams, and love a beer and a laugh (often at the expense of Ozzies)

    I found the history clip interesing, however agree to a point with those who say PC is not the issue. PC is just two words. Its up to individuals to claim back the right to be offended, and to offend others. I can hardly imagine that most people would prefer a right not to be offended over a right to free speech.

    A rant I know, but I am an expat, I left for better opportunities, and have enjoyed tax cuts and a better standard of living. I voiced my opposition electorally and it made no difference.

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  61. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Who said I would use violence on you, that is your violent tendencies and insecurities manifesting themselves in what you think I would do.

    So the abusive little bastard took offense to the Waffen SS remarks, but I thought we were allowed to be expressive and I was only making an observation. If I offend I am deeply sorry.

    And once again because you don’t like what I am saying doesn’t mean it isn’t an argument. Your grasp on what it means to participate in society is rather limited to standing and yelling at someone.

    You really are having a bad night aren’t you, I hope this hasn’t put you off your dinner.

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  62. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Free speech by it’s literal interpretation does not give you or anyone the right to say things what will cause offense.”

    Yes it does you arrogant totalitarian bastard. …and as I said, nothing gives me more pleasure than offending the anti free speech politically correct progressives of Labour (or any party).

    (You really need to be awoken to what an absolutely perfect manifestation of extreme left political correctness you actually are.)

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  63. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    bringbackthebiff.

    Do yourself a favor, Australia is seen as a joke in the international community with regard to race relations. If we were to treat the Maori the same way the Aust govt treats the Aboriginal community, there would have been a war of some kind and rightly so. As for the harmonious goings on in Sydney between the Croatian and Serbian communities, that could be better.

    As for the Maori gravy train. I don’t really see Ngai tahu on any greivance gravy train, in fact they are one of NZ’s most successful companies now that they have settled with the govt. All Iwi want to settle, it’s up to govt to fund the Tribunal to the right level to get it done with. And I really hope you aren’t suggesting that there shouldn’t be a settlement process?

    I’m glad you are having a good time over there, who knows you may want to come home some day, because despite the rants of many, this is a great place to live.

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  64. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “If I offend I am deeply sorry.”

    Don’t need to be you sad sap. For one thing, you haven’t offended me, and for another thing, even if you had, you don’t need to apologise. It really doesn’t matter. I’d prefer you were frank.

    (BTW, You haven’t offended me because you’re too damn painfully stupid to do anything except surprise me by, in each successive post, revealing yourself as even more stupid than you appeared in the previous post.)

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  65. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Red, then we have nothing, because nowhere in any philosophical or moral literature that says your rights and freedoms are grater than mine. You’re an offensive wanker, with little interest in debate (you yourself state) and have shown that you have dangerously high violent tendencies.

    But with your very statement, you are of course no better than the Waffen SS, as you have stated yourself that you take great pleasure in your actions, as did they.

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  66. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Kiwis of Maori descent and those not, get on better here than back home, why because there is no gravy train, no maori victim culture, its about work and get on. We identify with each other through our common heritage as New Zealanders. We all support the All Blacks and our respective S14 teams, and love a beer and a laugh (often at the expense of Ozzies)

    It’s nice to know we’re exporting these fucks to Aus.

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  67. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Red,

    you almost said something there without the need to resort to verbal abuse, why do you do it? What does it do to you to make you feel that you need to resort to abuse.

    Your first sentence stood on it’s own merits, the rest was just personal abuse. Very strange personality trait you have there?

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  68. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Paul I can see NO “verbal abuse” please stop your pathetic bleeding heart liberal hand wringing, as the labour party are gold medalists in throwing “verbal abuse ” and punches at opponents, but the pc socialists have selective memory loss when they are challenged on their deplorable antics in the political arena.

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  69. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    The Waffen SS were elite troops, probably the best soldiers in the history of the planet. Redbaiter is a lone loser in front of a computer. Please do not engage in such comparisons.

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  70. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “you almost said something there without the need to resort to verbal abuse”

    Sorry My mistake. I promise to try harder. Fucken pathetic socialist dipshit. That OK??

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  71. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Please do not engage in such comparisons.”

    Yep, follow Milt’s instructions Paul. If this was his blog, you’d be banned by now. He’s a lot like you actually. Perhaps not quite as dumb, but fucken close.

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  72. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Psycho – redbaiter has a valid point of view, where you are just a drivel merchant of little substance.

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  73. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    WEll, yes Dad – “Fucken pathetic socialist dipshit” is a valid point of view. How could I possibly mount a counter-argument against such crushing logic?

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  74. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Dad if you can’t see abuse in these postings you are also suffering from some sort of problem. And I will never again believe the rubbish you bleat on about youth crime etc.

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  75. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Oh please psycho Paul get a grip. Soft men can’t take rough times. They capitulate as ruthlessness frightens them. Go play candy boy communists at a Liarbour freakshow function.

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  76. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “How could I possibly mount a counter-argument against such crushing logic?”

    Or any logic for that matter. Its why banning is your preferred choice.

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  77. Duxton (651 comments) says:

    You’re a bit late, Dover. You could have played a part in stopping this years ago.

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  78. Pharmachick (235 comments) says:

    Paul,
    my comments mostly concern Mr. Samuel’s statement [as reported]:

    “We’ve got to learn to laugh at each other. This PC, culturally correct brigade will actually destroy our New Zealand lifestyle. There’s this inherent part of our country that is being destroyed because we’re becoming so PC. You’ve got these culturally correct loony tunes who think everything’s offensive come on, it’s time to wake up.” [sic]

    I am not sure about Central Otago since I’ve never lived there (although my brother-in-law does) … as a fluent Maori-speaking product of a small central North Island town, who subsequently spent 9 years in Auckland training/working before expatriating myself; my comments are based most definitely on personal concerns about NZ because of my [current] international perspective but are also tempered by my strong local identity and community concerns that I hear when I come back home … at least 1-2 times/year sometimes more.

    My husband has an interesting story about a ski trip as a post-graduate student with a bunch of (6) uni friends, one of whom was Taiwanese and their horrible and embarrasing experiences in a bar in Gore since one of “the guys” was of asian-NZ descent. An older Local in the bar made comments about “Nips” in a less-than-complimenatry manner … my husbnd (then 22) was shocked, embarrassed, disgusted and ashamed. We remain disgusted and dissapproving of such attitudes, but the only way to combat it is to show that as a country we do not approve of such behaviour.

    Despite these types of experiences, nothing gives a person or tribunal carte blanche to say “one can never challenge an immigrant on racial grounds”. Again, recent media reports on Immigration applicants that have tenuous grounds for applying for NZ residence seem to show a PC bias in *not* questioning the legitimacy of their hardship/safety concerns. My problem with this is that in NZ, we have more than enough perople that were born here and live in hardship and poverty and we need to support/help them without giving foreigners a free [nationally taxed] ride.

    Your comment:

    “But then if he wants all immigrants to become ‘kiwi’, then why doesn’t he want to be an Aussie when he lives there, rather two faced don’t you think”

    is inflammatory and a bit sad ….

    I live in the US now but do not consider myself to be American (and am certainly not considered to be so by the US Government or the people I live and work with). I also have no plans to become a US Citizen since GW Bush/Iraq aside; there is so very much that we could apsire to and learn from and admire about America. Whilst I am here I make every effort to conform to the American way of life … I speak English – its my 1st language – but the point is that I don’t bang on about Maori, French, Italian, Spanish or Arabic – my other fluent and/or conversational languages. I do not criticise Mr. Bush in public since 1) this is currentLY frowned upon in the USA 2) I am here as a guest in their country and at sufferance and 3) I have no wish to be ungracious or deported.

    I think its important to note that I do not ask (and wouldn’t dream of asking) for special treatment for my cultural sensitivities in the US because I chose to emigrate here …. instead I am grateful that they are willing to let me come here, live here and work here. I personally abhor the Iraq war, but do not publicly espouse this opinion, since in the US its currently unacceptable (publically) to do so, plus; it would be considered rude to my host country.

    Therefore, my attitude to trashy behaviour by immigrants to NZ is, “Piss Off .. if you choose to come to NZ then you have the same rights and responsibilities of all our citizens but you must abide by our laws and conventions and ***** you change for our conventions, not the other way round***** “.

    There are many reasons that people choose to live outside the bounds of their own countries (mine, primarily: NZ has only ~ 1 job opening in my field every 5 years) but most expats are outside NZ because of the desire for better lives and/or bettering themselves. In terms of NZ expats, please, do not mistake this for people that don’t care …. especially when they read DPF’s blog or TUMEKE or Cactus Kate or Poneke or whomever. Please know that we care so very much but we also understand that chasing a dream is far more personally fulfilling that sitting at home and asking for hadouts/being pissed off and bitter.

    Cheers
    Me

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  79. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,326 comments) says:

    Paul:

    Evidently you’re having fun in the sandpit (digging yourself into six-feet deep holes), but let’s get back to your opening observation on this thread:

    What an absolute load of bollocks.

    Political Correctness is the catchphrase for those whom don’t actually know that they are saying, that is they are looking for a all encompassing battle cry that is a scapegoat.

    You then devoted the rest of your comment to attacking Dover’s comments. Why? Because he expressed his opinion and you disagreed with it?

    I think it’s safe to assume Dover’s seen more of NZ, and met more NZers, than you have. So on real world experience: Dover 1: Paul 0.

    “Frankly, I think a vast majority of Maori have had a gutsful of it” What has he had a guts full of.

    Hint especially for you Paul: the context usually appears in the previous sentence. And indeed it does, as Dover said: “The Treaty of Waitangi seems to be the antidote for everything from tagging to wagging school and colonisation which is absolute cultural bullshit“.

    What exactly does he mean? It’s a completely vacuous statement, in which he really isn’t saying what he means. He’s the one being disingenuous.

    Give us an example ya bugger. Again you attack PC and you have little idea of what you are saying, or you lack the conviction to say what you actually mean.

    Again what the hell do you mean? The mouth is moving but nothing is coming out.

    But once again a politician can’t resist keeping their mouths shut when there is nothing to say.

    Hello Paul? Anyone home? The direct quotes attributed to Dover are those chosen by Sunday News. You’d probably be wanting to check an interview transcript before concluding Dover’s comments were vacuous. So on quality of analysis: Dover 1: Paul 0.

    As a remedial prescription, Paul, I’d suggest you take your own advice:

    Either say what you actually mean or shut the F up you twat.

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  80. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,326 comments) says:

    Paul:

    Paul,
    my comments mostly concern Mr. Samuel’s statement [as reported]:

    Even Pharmachick gets it. Why can’t you?

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  81. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “You’re a bit late, Dover. You could have played a part in stopping this years ago.”

    I think he did try Duxton. Dover wasn’t actually a Klark confidante, and I think was forced into the outer circle for his unwillingness to go along with the thought and speech control. Look what happened to Jim Sutton. A farmer and family man replaced by a progressive Rainbow faction Wellington lawyer. I don’t think the Labour party, pretty much in the control of the likes of the PC Klark and her fellow feminazis, would have hesitated to deal likewise with a stetson and cowboy boot wearing good ol boy like Dover.

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  82. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Peak Oil Conspiracy

    How can you assume he has seen more of the country than me, big assumption, wild assumption.

    Yes I disagree with his opinions, that is why I commented. I’d still love to know what he said though. LAst time I looked this was a free country and I can comment on stupid stuff like that, whatever it was he said?

    He made a broad sweeping statement about the treaty but then said nothing. It’s like sitting in a KKK meeting and going those bloody niggers. Of course everyone will nod and get all het up, but what was he saying.

    And FYI, I did read the transcript, I am willing to read what I want to criticise. So your argument is falling over again. You do make some wild accusations. Questioning my knowledge of the country and what i have and haven’t read.

    As I asked a long way back. What about the treaty doesn’t he like. What examples does he throw up -nothing.

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  83. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    “bloody niggers.”

    Demerits? As I was banned for using the “n” word. It would be great on a pc thread. Fingers crossed ?

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  84. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Pharmachick

    It was his comment was and I quote

    “He said it was high time Kiwis simply saw themselves as New Zealanders.”

    So why is it then when he is off to Australia he just doesn’t see himself as an Aussie.

    His words not mine.

    Cheers for the post. PS you can criticise Bush, the rest of the world does. I spent the last 6 months in Vancouver, they just ;love’ him there.

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  85. Pharmachick (235 comments) says:

    Nice to see Whale Oil posting since we also visit WHBF online occasionally and often agree (and sometimes disagree) with Whaleoil’s stance… most importantly, its nice to see intelligent debate ocurring.
    :)

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  86. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “So why is it then when he is off to Australia he just doesn’t see himself as an Aussie.”

    For fuck’s sake..!!! …maybe because he isn’t an Aussie.

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  87. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,326 comments) says:

    Paul:

    I’d still love to know what he said though.

    And FYI, I did read the transcript, I am willing to read what I want to criticise.

    Oh really? Where is this transcript then? Or is it that you don’t know the difference between a transcript and a published article?

    You do make some wild accusations. Questioning my knowledge of the country and what i have and haven’t read.

    This is rich coming from you, Paul. You’re the one making wild accusations about what Dover might, or might not, have meant to say. And I think it’s fair to say that a politican travels extensively throughout the heartland and meets people. On what basis do you claim to be more widely-travelled and widely-met, Paul?

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  88. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Dad if David is in the mood to give out demerits for using a word in context (without the violent overtones I assume you used the word in) then that is his want. We would then of course be banned from using penis if we were to talk about John Wayne Bobbit and his unfortunate member if that was in any way shape or form relevant to the context of political debate.

    But then he would be in one hell of a position, as using the correct word in the correct context and suffering demerits for such use, would make him less tolerant of political speech than the supposed EFB.

    Dad you get banned because you have a caustic keyboard with bugger all ability to engage in any form of comment without the violent verbal abuse that emanates from your seemingly less sane keyboard. Your biggoted and pathetic comments are a waste of even the seemingly free bits and bytes that compile the blogosphere.

    “Oh please psycho Paul get a grip. Soft men can’t take rough times. They capitulate as ruthlessness frightens them. Go play candy boy communists at a Liarbour freakshow function.”

    I mean what was that little rant about? It makes no sense and as a put down is about as cleaver as Baldrick in a pile of dung without the cunning tail painted on. If I was as keen to capitulate as you claim, why am I still here?

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  89. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,326 comments) says:

    Paul:

    I mean what was that little rant about? It makes no sense and as a put down is about as cleaver [sic] as Baldrick in a pile of dung without the cunning tail painted on. If I was as keen to capitulate as you claim, why am I still here?

    Ouch!

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  90. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    On what basis do you KNOW that I don’t travel? Huge assumption. I may have just spent the last 40 years in my mums basement, but then you aren’t to know that either are you?

    OK so I haven’t read the transcript. I forgot with the right these days what is published isn’t actually what they said, even thought it is what they said, I mean was that or wasn’t it what i said, or did I say it about something else, that is, if I didn’t say it and there wasn’t a retraction – which there wasn’t, and I didn’t say it about it, did I or didn’t I say it.

    So I have to wait for Dover’s people’s rebuttal of the actual article before I can believe it. Seems to me that is just simply censorship. If that is the want of the right these days, then fine, but don’t expect us to think that this is a free and fair society if we can’t take what is printed at face value. Boy the EFB is starting to look like a picnic compared to the rights view of the media these days.

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  91. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “why am I still here?”

    Attention seeking masochist.

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  92. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “OK so I haven’t read the transcript. I forgot with the right these days what is published isn’t actually what they said, even thought it is what they said, I mean was that or wasn’t it what i said, or did I say it about something else, that is, if I didn’t say it and there wasn’t a retraction – which there wasn’t, and I didn’t say it about it, did I or didn’t I say it.”

    Anybody out there gifted enough to discern the meaning of this??

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  93. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,326 comments) says:

    Paul:

    On what basis do you KNOW that I don’t travel? Huge assumption.

    I’ve never claimed to KNOW – kindly remove your foot from your mouth before putting words in mine.

    My exact words:

    I think it’s safe to assume Dover’s seen more of NZ, and met more NZers, than you have.

    And I think it’s fair to say that a politican travels extensively throughout the heartland and meets people. On what basis do you claim to be more widely-travelled and widely-met, Paul?

    The second quote actually invites you to clarify your circumstances. You could debate semantics – or address my substantive point. Over to you really.

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  94. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Peak,

    you are a funny guy aren’t you. I see what Red means when it is ok to be non PC and have free speech. It is OK to have a go at the Dyslexic now.

    You’ve been around here long enough to know that I am dyslexic, and if the spell checker doesn’t get it, I am screwed. I could of course have a go at you and take advantage of the edit function that David has had built into this blog, and you would look like some sort of hall monitor twat.

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  95. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    and you could just have a go at my spelling.

    How is it safe to assume that Dover has seen more of the country than me, you or anyone? Its not a very safe assumption. Even if he has, are we into the realm of might is right, because that is a dangerous path to follow.

    800,000 people including Mickey Mouse signed the bill against making Homosexuality legal. Might isn’t always right

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  96. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,326 comments) says:

    Redbaiter:

    Anybody out there gifted enough to discern the meaning of this??

    I think what Paul is trying to say, in a roundabout way, is:

    OK so I haven’t read the transcript … [I lied when I said: "And FYI, I did read the transcript, I am willing to read what I want to criticise"].

    … I forgot with the right these days [what I'm about to say is gobbledegook].

    … what is published isn’t actually what they said, even thought it is what they said, I mean was that or wasn’t it what i said, or did I say it about something else, that is, if I didn’t say it and there wasn’t a retraction – which there wasn’t, and I didn’t say it about it, did I or didn’t I say it. [cancerous and corrosive; haters and wreckers; I was too busy reading papers in the backseat of the car to notice].

    Paul is a master of spin and deflection.

    I believe he claims to be a teacher at an earlier point in his career?

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  97. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Red

    ““why am I still here?”
    Attention seeking masochist.”

    I thought we were all here to debate the political issues of the day, Or is it you just can’t handle not being in on it? Masochist?

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  98. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    It’s called taking the piss gentlemen.

    I mean after all of the denials of statement which may or may have not been said, even though they had, but only not about what I said them about, that National engaged in this week, it’s called taking the piss.

    What’s being a teacher got to do with it, apart from being a member of the great socialist plot to brainwash your poor defenseless children.

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  99. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,326 comments) says:

    Paul:

    You’ve been around here long enough to know that I am dyslexic, and if the spell checker doesn’t get it, I am screwed.

    Actually I wasn’t aware of this – you shouldn’t presume such knowledge. In any event, the point is irrelevant. I was commenting on what I perceived to be a contradiction between lecturing someone about intelligence and misspelling “clever” as in “meat cleaver”.

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  100. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Red
    “For fuck’s sake..!!! …maybe because he isn’t an Aussie”

    But he wants us all to be Kiwi, even if we are Sri Lankian, Austrian, Croatian, Pacific Islander. Can’t have it both ways, unless he’s a hypocrite that is.

    He’s just another who doesn’t want to live by his rules for others.

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  101. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Paul – you are a disgrace to kiwi manhood and your blinded ignorance is typical from a cornered communist rat fink, who refuses to be taught and who will always be ignorant. Ignorant men, like yourself, are at the mercy of the knowledgeable.

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  102. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “What’s being a teacher got to do with it”

    Specially when you also claim to be dyslexic. What were you teaching the kids? How not to spell? Explains a lot about current educational standards….

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  103. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Or according to Redbaiter it’s OK to be NON PC and poke fun at those different to you.

    My inability to recognise words and/or spell them has bugger all to do with intelligence.

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  104. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “But he wants us all to be Kiwi, even if we are Sri Lankian, Austrian, Croatian, Pacific Islander. Can’t have it both ways, unless he’s a hypocrite that is.”

    Wrong dipshit. Wasn’t what he said at all. He was talking Maoris and the Treaty of Waitangi. Nuttin to do with Sri Lankans. (err, I mean Sri Lankians.. haw haw)

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  105. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Paul you are a thicko !! You are a poor specimen, who has been tested under adversity and it has been determined you are unable to behave right under pressure.

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  106. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,326 comments) says:

    Paul:

    Even if he has, are we into the realm of might is right, because that is a dangerous path to follow. 800,000 people including Mickey Mouse signed the bill against making Homosexuality legal. Might isn’t always right

    Oh goodness.

    This thread’s about Dover’s observations. Those observations are presumably based on Dover’s experience and, particularly, his experience in the Far North (where I expect – I don’t KNOW, Paul – much of the heartland political debate about the Treaty has taken place).

    My contribution to this thread has essentially been to demonstrate your criticisms of Dover’s opinions are based on the published comments – not on the full interview transcript (which none of us have apparently seen). You claim to hold a different opinion to those expressed by Dover. That’s your right, and you’re exercising your freedom of expression here by sharing your opinions. I’m merely observing that your criticisms ring hollow when you claim Dovert’s statements are vacuous.

    Not a controversial proposition, I would have thought.

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  107. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Dad you are insane.

    As for teaching, it was very simple to explain to 14 years old whom have more empathy than most in this blog. When I put instructions on the black board or white board, it was always a challenge to the students to see if there were any spelling mistakes. It was a great game and while they were learning about the geophysical process which formed the periglacial landscapes of sub arctic regions, they were able to keep on their toes in english language.

    “Explains a lot about current educational standards….” No what says a lot about current educational standards is the fact that you deem it ok to offend other people. If this is a trait you install in your kids, then we have no hope for the education system. Funny someone who probably would like to see the strap back in schools would see his kids first in line for being abusive to teachers. Too contradictory, and way to fast at attribute blame.

    So are we any closer to knowing why Dover said (or didn’t say in true current National speak) such sweeping statements without little or no meaning?

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  108. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    I thought we were all here to debate the political issues of the day,

    Nah – there is no issue here, it’s just an opportunity for some old hands to have a go at each other. There really is no story here at all – Mr Samuels has simply found his voice now that he’s retiring. He’s remained silent for years, because he believes the yawning chasm of difference between his view and those of the majority of his organisation could adversely affect his career. Such a situation is in no sense new, and in no sense has anything to do with what right-wingers call “political correctness.” It’s more to do with courage, or in this case, the lack of it.

    People who bleat about Political Correctness are either:

    1. Unable to endure the fact that others are entitled to find your views offensive and say so, or

    2. Fully aware they’re talking some really ugly shit, but hate being called on it,

    or both. In this case, given that Mr Samuels is so unable to bear the concept of his views now being in the minority that he’s moving to another country, I’d say he fits category 1.

    There’s basically no issue here. Bad luck, anti-PC types. Some people disagree with you, and they’re going to say so. Learn to live with it, assholes.

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  109. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Actually, the deabte about the treaty has been intensive down here. I have been fortunate enough to be party to treaty hearings and they are fascinating, and have bugger all to do with the fears of the common people, as they are feed anything but the truth about the treaty process.

    “demonstrate your criticisms of Dover’s opinions are based on the published comments – not on the full interview transcript”

    OK SHUT UP EVERYONE. Stop typing now.

    Unless you have all seen the actual transcript of any articles that you are all commenting on at the moment, apparently we are not to comment. Published material is no longer good enough, we need to know the actual transcript.

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  110. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “People who bleat about Political Correctness are either:

    1. Unable to endure the fact that others are entitled to find your views offensive and say so, or

    I couldn’t have said it better, thank you. Those who bleat on about being bloody PC are

    “Unable to endure the fact that others are entitled to find your views offensive and say so, or”

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  111. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    Political correctness is a good example of how low “liberalism” has descended in the last 40 odd years. Back then it could at least pass as a reasonably well intentioned, social and political ideology, not the relentlessly destructive, all consuming cesspool of intolerance and hatred of any opinion outside of their liberal social mores and doctrines. Fuck that. Political correctness is a tool the liberal left use to jam and intimidate those who hold viewpoints contrary to those of their own – along with other tools such as creating and exploiting divisiveness.

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  112. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,326 comments) says:

    Paul:

    OK SHUT UP EVERYONE. Stop typing now.

    Unless you have all seen the actual transcript of any articles that you are all commenting on at the moment, apparently we are not to comment. Published material is no longer good enough, we need to know the actual transcript.

    Here’s a challenge Paul: prove that this is what I said. Or, as suggested above, take your own advice:

    Either say what you actually mean or shut the F up you twat.

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  113. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    and dad you are an insane litigious old bugger with a penchant for the profane and vulgar, your (latent) homophobia and distain for others is seemingly unmatched.

    You seem unable to see that your morbid fascination with the criminal justice system is of course full of contradictions.

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  114. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “There’s basically no issue here. Bad luck, anti-PC types. Some people disagree with you, and they’re going to say so. Learn to live with it, assholes.”

    Now I get the connection. You’re dyslexic too right Phil?? Paul can’t see letters in the right order and you can’t see logic in any order. Stick together, you’ll slowly drive everyone who tries to engage you crazy.

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  115. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Unable to endure the fact that others are entitled to find your views offensive and say so,”

    Whats to endure?? I couldn’t really give a fuck either way.

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  116. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Radical feminists are lying evil scum. Gay rights advocates are fucked in the head.

    Hope you both support my right to say that, PM and Paul. And Paul, if you are a teacher, I hope you’d defend to the death any pupil’s right to say those words in front of the class. If not, why not?

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  117. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Grant S

    welcome to the scared masses. You have little or no understanding of the underlying ability of being PC as to acknowledge that there are differing views of others.

    Could anyone, you know anyone, anyone (ferris buller) give me an example of PC gone mad.

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  118. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    “In this case, given that Mr Samuels is so unable to bear the concept of his views now being in the minority that he’s moving to another country”

    “Learn to live with it, assholes”

    Psycho Milt demonstrates once again that he represents the “majority” and can tolerate opinions which run counter to his doctrical subservience to secular-progressive social codes.

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  119. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Political correctness is a tool the liberal left use to jam and intimidate those who hold viewpoints contrary to those of their own

    Redbaiter, there’s an echo in here!

    Now Grant, you’re just inviting ridicule. “Help! Help! I’m being intimidated! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! That’s what I’m on about! Did you see him intimidating me? You saw him, Didn’t you?”

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  120. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Whats to endure?? I couldn’t really give a fuck either way.

    That’s why you leapt in here with the first comment? You didn’t care either way? Shit you must be bored.

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  121. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,326 comments) says:

    Psycho Milt:

    That’s why you leapt in here with the first comment? You didn’t care either way? Shit you must be bored.

    And given the (current) +21 karma rating for Redbaiter’s opening contribution, I guess a fair number of Kiwiblog readers are bored too?

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  122. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Paul:

    “Could anyone, you know anyone, anyone (ferris buller) give me an example of PC gone mad.”

    Is compulsory sex education for five year-olds mad enough for you Paul?

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  123. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Hope you both support my right to say that, PM and Paul.

    Er, yes Why wouldn’t I? If you wish to make yourself look deranged, by all means do so. Just don’t go wailing about intimidation the way Grant and Redbaiter do, when someone points out you’re talking shit.

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  124. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Go and look at the video I posted in the 4th post from the top PM, and tell me what factual errors there are. Then come back and explain why I’m talking shit.

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  125. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    And given the (current) +21 karma rating for Redbaiter’s opening contribution, I guess a fair number of Kiwiblog readers are bored too?

    Not necessarily – perhaps it’s not that like Redbaiter they’re so short of something to do they write a lengthy comment on something they supposedly don’t give a fuck about, but more that they do actually give a fuck and happen to agree with him? Just a thought.

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  126. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,326 comments) says:

    Reid:

    Could you fix your link please (9:41 comment) – I’d like to read it.

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  127. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    You said it back at 9:15 in clear typed printed bits and bytes or pixels or however you want to express it.

    Reid you are of course being a pompous asshole. Why would anyone want to say those things given that the statements are neither statement of fact or valid opinion, which does not offend others.

    I would never allow a student to be so dumb as to limit their intelligence to such statements. If they were so unable to express their (wow obviously very deep seated) fears and emotions without such foul language, i would be more than disappointed. They have obviously never learnt to express their emotions without degenerating to abuse.

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  128. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=518670&in_page_id=1770

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  129. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Reid: this was you talking shit:

    Radical feminists are lying evil scum. Gay rights advocates are fucked in the head.

    It seemed clear enough to me.

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  130. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    “Now Grant, you’re just inviting ridicule”

    Go ahead ridicule me, I don’t care, I say what I bloody well like. What will you do if your lame attempts at ridicule doesn’t make me go away ? Send me to the Gulags ? To the killing fields ? You’d never admit it of course but your dogmatic and narcissistic belief that your worldview is the correct one is exactly what lead to such human tragedies. Your smug and pretentious Milt. The No Minister guys seem to hold the opinion that you’re some sort of erudite, balanced Leftist, but I don’t. Your a zealot, an idealogue, a totalitarian, and a slave to a political ideology which continuously demonstrates itself to be nothing but an abject failure.

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  131. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    “Reid you are of course being a pompous asshole. Why would anyone want to say those things given that the statements are neither statement of fact”

    How the fuck would you know if they are statements of fact if you don’t look at the counter-argument Paul? Have you seen that video yet or did the family roast get in the way?

    And what facts in that video were wrong, specifically?

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  132. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Er, sure. I’d send you to the Gulags or the killing fields, just like all those other brave fools who wouldn’t be scared off by me taking the piss out of them. Seriously – is there some other Milt here you’re writing about?

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  133. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Have you looked at the video PM? Please do so.

    I could of course enumerate why radical feminists are lying scum and gay rights advocates are fucked in the head, but it would take a lot longer than 22 minutes to document and much longer for you to read it. Much easier for you to look at it and get back when you have.

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  134. aladin (48 comments) says:

    Dover Samuels: We’ve got to learn to laugh at each other.”

    Is he related to Bush?

    aladin

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  135. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Thanks for correcting the link, because you have demonstrated that this has nothing to do with political correctness.

    In Britain (I was hoping for a closer example but this will do), someone has suggested that compulsory sex education may/or many not be on the agenda. Remember this hasn’t actually happened and there is a committee to look into it.

    You use the term political correctness when you are trying to criticise educational policy. So what you mean is this is educational policy gone mad? Well that may be your opinion of this committees mandate.

    You say political correctness when you aren’t sure of what you are saying. This is my point about Dover. It has nothing to do with the all encompassing PC gone mad mentality, it’s got more to do with the “I’m just bloody angry and want to blame anyone and everyone syndrome”

    This is an example of Educational Policy not PC.

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  136. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    Er, no it’s you.

    Er, how are you taking the piss? All I’ve done is offend your leftist sensibilities – that is all, and you’re hoping that I’ll be overwhelmed by your superior intellect and prose. Fuck that, I don’t think so Tim.

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  137. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    So Paul, possibli a teacher, can’t connect the dots. I’m fucking amazed.

    Paul, for your benefit, let me tell you I’m being sarcastic. Do you not realise you fool, that the educational system, from day-care onwards, is the target ground?

    How could you be so obtuse?

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  138. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    I’m a reader, not a TV-watcher, Reid. But I can tell you without looking at it that the fact you can find an unpleasant video about somebody does not mean “Category x of people are scum.”

    Night-night all, it’s been a hoot.

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  139. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “Radical feminists are lying evil scum. Gay rights advocates are fucked in the head”

    How can these be statements of fact? They are opinions.

    Watching the little twat right now, riveting viewing. I hope you didn’t get as bored as I am in the first 39 seconds.

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  140. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Jesus 1.21 into the video (20mins to go) and his interpretation of Marxist ideology is already flawed. Wow this is painful.

    What the fuck is it with Americans. They use the term marxist as if it is some sort of disease.

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  141. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Thanks for adding to the general knowledge PM, your contribution has been outstanding.

    Have a look at it sometime, you’ll find it factual, objective, and interesting. I can give you some articles too if you like but perhaps you might just prefer to google “political correctness origin” if you’re interested in knowing where your ideology sprung from.

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  142. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    “They use the term marxist as if it is some sort of disease.”

    It’s actually a British disease Paul but that’s another story. Keep watching.

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  143. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    This is a gem at 1.33

    “In 1917 a Marxist revolution did occur in Russia but it failed to spread to Europe” He’s good, wow is he good.

    Shall we flip the coin, I thought the free market was going to bring economic nirvana to the masses, what has happened to the free market. Why does America still have greater number of protectionist trade barriers than Europe collectively? Is this the free and great America, defender of the free world. Come on free market liberate me…

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  144. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    1.39, The pipe, the old leather chair.

    Bugger how could I ever doubt this guys theorm.

    Mind you with ears like that he could be the drummer in the Housemartians (the pipe would have to go).

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  145. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Who is this twat. We know he is of some Foundation. But who is he. He could be D4J for all we know. Hardly a way to base a serious intellectual debate.

    what?

    Oh he is the drummer from the Housemartains, filthy socialist English 1980s indie pop band. I see he’s come over to the dark side. This is funny, thanks for the link.

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  146. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    “Come on free market liberate me…”

    You might want to watch Commanding Heights (PBS) for that Paul.

    Keep watching. Sheesh, 1.5 minutes and he’s made eleventy gajillion comments already. Some teachers find educating themselves really hard. Maybe they already think they know everything?

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  147. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    So 2:43 into the video we are seeing some guy going on about the unity of the family.

    So so far this isn’t PC gone mad, it’s some mad socialists political agenda according to this faceless smoking man (I dare him to inhale).

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  148. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Paul, newsflash, not everyone is interested in your immediate thought processes.

    Suggestion (hesitantly as I know teachers think they already know everything): STFU until you’ve seen the whole thing.

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  149. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,326 comments) says:

    DPF:

    Tags: Dover Samuels, Labour, Maori Party, Political Correctness

    Thanks to Paul’s comical contributions, I think you should add humour to the list.

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  150. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Well Reid, so far there have been numerous factual ‘licenses’ taken that I’m struggling to do all of the background research.

    He’s made all of these statements about the Socialist states not coming into being which isn’t how it was meant to happen according to the books.

    Well the free market books haven’t exactly been on the money yet have they, so I am meant to believe that the free market it correct and socialism is wrong, even thought the prophecies of either haven’t eventuated.

    This is pretty hard going, it’s just so bad.

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  151. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Reid,

    you have asked me to go through this bloody stupid video and see what’s wrong with it. Sorry for being so thorough.

    Shall we start at the top class. The Hungarian communists were no more true communists of socialist brothers than the USofA is the bastion of all free market capitalism. The so called Hungarian communists were as we all know dictators. But given GW Bushes ability to veto health care bills in the US which would have extended health care to 30million children, I think it is rather rich of this twat to be lecturing us on the ills of the Hungarian communist party plans for children.

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  152. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Paul, refer to post 10:16. I’m going to copy this reference as I think I may need it again.

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  153. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Answer me this.

    If communism according to the books is so bad and the market so good, well according to Friedman and other monetarists, that “market economies are inherently stable if left to themselves and depressions result only from government”.

    What the hell was the subprime mortgage debacle in the US about if it wasn’t a failure in the market. A failure so calamitous that it has even affected the NZ economy. Come on why did the market fail us oh so powerful and all knowing market. Where was the inherent stability? Oh the humanity.

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  154. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Now Grant, you’re just inviting ridicule.”

    Tell him to fuck off Grant. Tammy Bruce has one of the best definitions of Political Correctnes I have read, and Milt typifies the kind of “progressive” she is talking about. I’ll wear the ridicule of jack booted oafs like Milt with pride.

    Bruce, in her book “The New Thought Police: Inside the Left’s Assault on Free Speech and Free Minds” aims to show why the left has, in her words, become “so compelled to resort to speech and mind control, thus contributing to a vicious circle of destroying individual liberty.” Political correctness, the most benign but still dangerous form of the left’s campaign, began with suggested speech and has ended up with campaigns designed to destroy anyone who disagrees with their agenda. “Ironically,” Bruce writes at one point, “it is the progressives who, while seemingly committed to freedom of expression, attempt to exact severe social punishments on anyone who espouses an idea or opinion that challenges their status quo. Perhaps it’s time for all of us to reread George Orwell’s 1984.”

    “I’m writing,” she continues, “about attempts to stigmatize as outrageous the speech and thoughts of the average person, speech and thoughts whose real offense is straying from the Left’s approved range of opinions. Courtesy of the Thought Police, there is not one segment of American society today that feels entirely comfortable expressing its opinions on the issues, particularly if they’re dissenting in nature.”

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  155. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “That’s why you leapt in here with the first comment?”

    That’s right Milt, waste everyone’s time and bandwidth with your customary dull brained inability to discern what is being talked about.

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  156. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Seems capitalism has learnt something from the evil communism.

    Tobacco companies have learnt how to ‘hook’ a client very early. Ah the free market and mighty capitalism, responsible for 1500+ deaths each year in NZ. I can’t recall the last communist head count but I’m pretty sure its something around 0.

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  157. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Paul, if you’ve been following my posts on KB over the years you’d know I’m no fan of Bush and have said numerous times that he is without doubt the worst Pres in US history. Also I have been aware of the sub-prime crisis for over two years and warning everyone who would listen including on this blog on the extremely rare occasions that the subject came up. But WTF does that have to do with the video? Don’t answer, just keep watching, and please refer to post 10:16

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  158. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Paul can you please stop calling me insane you EDIT ( not worth the demerits)

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  159. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Red

    you actually read Fox News Correspondents books. Next you’ll be telling me it was “fair and Balanced”.

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  160. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    RB:

    “Political correctness, the most benign but still dangerous form of the left’s campaign, began with suggested speech and has ended up with campaigns designed to destroy anyone who disagrees with their agenda.”

    Wolf in sheep’s clothing RB. Designed from the beginning as such.

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  161. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Come on Dad, you are insane, just sane enough to operate freely in society, just like the rest of us.

    I haven’t been privy to one of your specially “brokeback mountain” quips yet, come on just a little convivial tonight.

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  162. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    “I’ll wear the ridicule of jack booted oafs like Milt with pride”

    Yup, me too. Admittedly, I’m no intellectual gymnast but I have an objective view on the notion of right and wrong. Notice how totalitarian bullies like PM back off when they are stood up to ?

    BTW. I’ve read Tammys “The Death Of Right & Wrong”. I’ll have to check out “The New Thought Police”

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  163. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Well Reid

    “But WTF does that have to do with the video” The video claims to be all critical of Socilalism and Communism, I was just throwing counter claims to that of Capitalism, just trying to be fair and balanced.

    Actually the frankfurt school’s lasting legacy will go well beyond it’s marxist roots, in that the theories and work they devised on Critical Theory have far reaching impact today. We would not have had Post Structuralism or Post Modernism without such body of work. Indeed the whole body of modern aesthetics would be very different today if we weren’t treated to the Frankfurt School’s insights.

    Funny the Frankfurt school was more or less shunned by the true marxists as not sticking to the company policy when they branched out into critical theory.

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  164. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Jesus so there are people in NZ who read Fox news books. Come on people that’s scarier than reading Marx isn’t it?

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  165. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Paul, you a lefty gripper, at least my insanity is confined to your delusional thoughts, you demented crackpot communist coward. Good night and do watch out for the Liarbour fungus and Stalin cockroaches that infest your bedroom.

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  166. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Come on Dad, you are insane, just sane enough to operate freely in society, just like the rest of us.

    I haven’t been privy to one of your specially “brokeback mountain” quips yet, come on just a little convivial tonight.

    Paul, it’s very interesting that someone who teaches young people would be sadistic enough to bait one of the people on this blog into a reaction that would not have any consequences for you but may have for him if he responded in the way you are encouraging him to do.

    Please don’t pretend we are children here, we adults know what you are trying to do. Is it because you are angry? Isn’t that really wrong, from a PC prespective? Shouldn’t you be trying to see where D4J is coming from? Aren’t you just being a bully?

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  167. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    “Funny the Frankfurt school was more or less shunned by the true marxists as not sticking to the company policy when they branched out into critical theory.”

    Ever heard of disassembling Paul?

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  168. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    “Jesus so there are people in NZ who read Fox news books”

    Once again, the leftist tactic of implicit assumption, ridicule and denigration.

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  169. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Notice how totalitarian bullies like PM back off when they are stood up to ?”

    He deletes posts too, one of the reasons I don’t ever comment on ‘No Minister’ these days. He’s proof you cannot ever trust the left to allow words they do not agree with, and its why left wing blogs (or blog contributors) are almost all a complete waste of time in terms of real discussion. They just will not allow writing that seriously confronts their ideas.. Unless they first “approve” it.

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  170. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,326 comments) says:

    Reid:

    Aren’t you just being a bully?

    Indeed. I find it intriguing that Paul plays the dyslexia card (You’ve been around here long enough to know that I am dyslexic, and if the spell checker doesn’t get it, I am screwed – I had no idea about Paul’s dyslexia, or that Kiwiblog is all about Paul and his problems) and then attacks D4J (who is, shall we say, an aggrieved participant in the justice system).

    Here’s a clue, Paul: focus on the issues and less on the personalities.

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  171. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    reid – Paul is no bully, as this timid git would get blown away in a Canterbury Nor Wester. He is so wimpish even the communist cockroaches don’t go near him.

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  172. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Once again, the leftist tactic of implicit assumption, ridicule and denigration.”

    He’s an uninformed idiot, like most leftists. Bruce wrote the book far before she became a contributor to FOX news. Wonder what the fuckwit thinks of all of the left wing commentators who feature on FOX?

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  173. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Quote

    “Following Lukács lead, the Frankfurt School would be the vehicle that translated Marxism from economic into cultural terms, giving us what we now know as Political Correctness.”

    I only need to get 5.01 into this little gem to discover that it is in fact bullshit.

    The frankfurt school is not responsible for Political Correctness, he has made that up. It’s one hell of a long shot to call critical theory Political Correctness, in fact it’s about as intellectually vigorous as calling GW Bush a Vampire, just because he’s a blood sucking bastard.

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  174. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    D4J, I do get the impression you could kick sand in his face. But that would be wrong. Very wrong.

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  175. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    The concerned look on his brow, the pipe is withdrawn from his pert lip

    “another piece of Political Correctness was falling into place”

    This is the stuff of novels, not rigorous political discourse.

    He is of course wrong. The study of human sexual function and it’s origins have nothing to do with Political Correctness.

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  176. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    FFS Paul, just google it. If he “made it up” then a hell of a lot of other people have been fooled. Does it ever occur that maybe it’s you that’s wrong?

    Here you go, for example (can’t be arsed putting them into descriptive title links):

    http://www.freecongress.org/PC_Essays/F_chapter_five.pdf

    http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3810eb1e0d57.htm

    http://www.planetpapers.com/Assets/3448.php

    etc, etc, etc…

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  177. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Reid,

    he’s not interested in sand unless it is the contents of my pants. I’ve been subject many many times to his somewhat homoerotic abuse, and I’m not too interested in where that “comes from” or for that matter where the hell that is going.

    D4J is a mad mad man in a mad mad world, he’s also one hell of an abusive bastard (you know as in good bastard).

    Reid, I’m posting all of these rebuttals to this so called scholarly piece of work (greatest piece of fiction since War and Piece I think), just because this twat with a pipe says so, doesn’t mean it is.

    Funniest thing is all of these ‘monsters’ whom he identifies over and over all seemed to end up in the US. Sure it was to escape the facists, but they can’t have been the monsters he is on about, or they would have been rounded up.

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  178. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Anyway, substantive critique please Paul. Facts, names, places. You’ve watched it. Specifically, where are the flaws in the argument he propounds?

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  179. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    “What is Critical Theory”

    “The theory is to criticise. Through unremitting destructive criticism of every institution of western society, they hope to bring that society down. Critical Theory is the basis for gay studies, black studies, women’s studies and various other ‘studies’ departments found on American campuses today”

    Wow. So to be human is to criticise, but not as long as you criticse too hard or destructively. What a load of bollocks. Don’t criticise people it’s destructive.

    This guy is just a complete fake. You could almost see the distain in his face when he even had to use the words gay, black and women.

    Oh and look, he’s found the “I was a radical when I was young, but now I’m all grown up” guy. See Marxism is so wrong, you grow uo to be a sanctimonious git.

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  180. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Paul, what I’m concerned about with respect to your intercourse with D4J, is your politically incorrect intolerance toward refusing to accept that his perspective is valid. I find it most disconcerting to the extent that I believe your attitude appears to require tolerance enhancement and I hope that we can enter into a mutually acceptable framework with a range of options to help us both to work toward achieving this extremely critical and worthwhile objective.

    Just making a point D4J, I know you’re more than happy to speak for yourself.

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  181. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Well his arguements are subjective. I have never before heard of the Frankfurt school as the birth of Political Correctness as if that is a derogoraroty term.

    Shall I repeat myself

    ““Following Lukács lead, the Frankfurt School would be the vehicle that translated Marxism from economic into cultural terms, giving us what we now know as Political Correctness.””

    Says who, well it seams he does. But because he says so, doesn’t make it correct.

    His whole argument is classical conservatism critique. It’s a little dated in it’s approach (that would explain the pipe), and we have moved on from classical conservative critiques of Marxism these days. It’s like, well it’s like trying to apply classical marxism to modern economics. Difficult and fraught with danger.

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  182. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    So, no substantive criticisms Paul?

    Facts, names, places?

    Evidence?

    Nothing? Oh dear. Just a bit of general fluff.

    Have a think about it Paul and come back.

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  183. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    “He’s an uninformed idiot, like most leftists. Bruce wrote the book far before she became a contributor to FOX news. Wonder what the fuckwit thinks of all of the left wing commentators who feature on FOX?”

    Yes, the Left base arguments which can me countered on their lack of relavancy and proportionality alone.

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  184. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Christ and his analysis of Theodor Adorno’s work is so weak and incorrect that I am starting to wonder is this the work of a senior high school student’s film studies class.

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  185. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Society moves on and the history of retiring politicians is the history of sad old men – old age truly is a shipwreck – seeking one last parting shot at their political enemies, often of their own party.

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  186. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    Paul said: “D4J is a mad mad man in a mad mad world, he’s also one hell of an abusive bastard”

    Well, I’ve never seen D4J use the word “cunt” which you used to describe Redbaiter in an above comment.

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  187. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Well If i knew this nameless gits info I’d be posting it.

    His criticisms are baseless and purely opinions.

    ““Following Lukács lead, the Frankfurt School would be the vehicle that translated Marxism from economic into cultural terms, giving us what we now know as Political Correctness.””

    This is neither factual or correct, and a massive misinterpretation of the work of the Frankfurt School.

    The stuff that Jay talks about is indeed true, indeed I have used Prof Jay’s work in many of my papers. He’s a pretty influential guy.

    This talking head with a pipe is a hack at best.

    The above statement by the guy is opinion, not fact.

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  188. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Grant, come on after all of that baiting, surely I was able to vent a little steam. Oh Bugger you’ve used the word too now.

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  189. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    No Paul, you’re not allowed. Don’t you understand that’s the whole point? Language, “correct” language, is the foundation.

    Duh.

    And if you feel constrained or ashamed by being pulled up by your own rules, imagine what it’s like for those of us who have seen them coming (unlike obviously, yourself) and who foresee the effects.

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  190. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    Oh Compy, I’d never call YOU that word. You’re probably a decent guy who cares for his family – it’s just your blissfully misguided political views which stink to high heaven.

    Stare away from the pink towers.

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  191. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    I mean his level of analysis is simply historical, with bizzare opinionated op-ed bits thrown in. This history is good if not a little skewered todards the absurd.

    Did you know that Milton Freedman was part of the Chicago School, and that at Chicago Bertrand Russell also went, who once wrote a book called, “Why I am not a Christian” and attended peace marches. The very same Bertrand Russell who wrote “Principia Mathematica” which was to serve as the basis of much of the work of the scientists researching particle acceleration. The very same scientist which included J. Robert Oppenheimer, whom of course was the lead scientist on the atomic bomb that killed tens of thousands in Japan and bought about the Arms race. It could be argued that Freedman was one of the founding fathers of the Arms Race.

    We all know that this is bollocks, but this is the sort of stuff we are lead to believe as fact from this nameless ‘scholar’.

    I mean this is the sort of level of analysis of this guy, it’s pathetic. It’s average history at best, at worst it’s ideologically driven ‘anti’ thought.

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  192. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    No Reid,

    his analysis is so fundamentally flawed that this wouldn’t even stand up for selection in the Golden Raspberry Awards.

    It’s like trying to blame thinking for all of the ills of the world, which by his long and strangely drawn brown must mean that capitalism is responsible for the degradation of the family unit.

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  193. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    Still no critique of facts, names, places Paul?

    I thought a teacher would know how to dissemble.

    Obviously you don’t.

    Facts, names, places please Paul.

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  194. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Oh see that was it all along. 15.25

    Those bloody marxists were responsible for the blacks integrating in society, I told you there would be no good come of the Frankfurt School.

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  195. reid (16,471 comments) says:

    And Paul: facts, names, places.

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  196. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Reid you just don’t get it do you, you are a stuck record whose intellectual dogma prevents the needle from getting past the 10 commandments.

    How can I use names facts and places when he is unnamed, his ‘foundation’ is obsecure and his opinion is what i am attacking.

    He says (for fucks sake this is the third time man)

    ““Following Lukács lead, the Frankfurt School would be the vehicle that translated Marxism from economic into cultural terms, giving us what we now know as Political Correctness.”

    This is opinion, not fact or even rigorous political intellectual or even back yard discource. It’s his bloody opinion

    Do you want me to use capitals.

    “ giving us what we now know as Political Correctness.” HIS OPINION. It’s not a valid or even widely assumed thesis of fact, indeed I have now wasted over an hour trying to find someone anyone to verify his OPINION.

    This is no more political discourse than us sitting here tonight. This history is good if not a little skewered in the inferences he uses in the tone of his voice.

    I am more than versed in disassembling indeed post structuralist critique of argument. I could even propose a Post Modernist critique but it would take a few nights and I’m sure you would attack some of the Critical Theory as marxist propaganda, so it would be rather fruitless.

    If you want me to name names etc, get me this gits info and I’ll start with this pipe wielding tosser. See now you’ve gone and got me mad. I mean this wanker is no more credible than a preacher in the good old US of A. I mean blaming marxism for black integration, what a load of bullshit.

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  197. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Oh Jesus,

    the bloody dirty Marxists are responsible for the sexual revolution now. Well at least they did two things right, blacks and women.

    Tell me one thing are you a misogynistic racist whom longs for the days of god fearing order, in which the word of the bible and the man of the house are all knowing and must be obeyed? Why else are you subjecting me to this diatribe of bullshit.

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  198. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Further, wow, how dangerous are the ideas of the group of a small amount of men and women. And thus how weak were the foundations on which the homogonised society in which it affected are. I mean how could the ideas of such a small number of German marxist rock the very foundations of the free world without those foundations being built on false pillars.

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  199. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    There is always a reactionary backlash to change – even change which ushers in “democracy where there is an equality of place for all”.

    Those bringing the critical thought which raised the idea of an existing privilege and then challenged it, are often resented by those accustomed to the old order. And not necessarily only by those of privilege in it, even amongst those advantaged by the change, there are those who were loyal and at home in the former society.

    For example, there are circumcised women in Africa who support the circumcision of the next generation and are resistant to any societal change.

    PS Amongst things I have learnt on the net, one cannot have a fruitful debate with those who quote Henry Makow.

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  200. Paul (1,315 comments) says:

    Christ I’ve found about the author

    William S. Lind

    Military historian and cultural conservative (well I got that bit right).

    But wait how could such a opponent of Political Correctness and apparently ‘criticism’ (now there’s an oxymoron) be a proponent of public transport. Surely that’s where the gays and blacks and women would meet so freely. That’s just asking for trouble, next you know there will be blacks and women on the same bus as god fearing christian males (with pipes at the ready).

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  201. GK (97 comments) says:

    Political Correctness is merely a fear of the truth. This bearpit of a thread proves one point. There is nothing more intolerant than a liberal.

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  202. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    So the assertion that there is some white man mainstream “truth” which is opposed by a “democratic majority”, but only because of some conspiracy called political correctness “which is leading the people astray”.

    Obviously this is a plaintive call for the said conspiracy to be silenced, so the people would return to their allegiance in the white man mainstream order of rule.

    The liberal being as good as a black, a Jew, an unescorted unmarried woman, a child needing discipline, or an atheist before those who were “elected by God” into the supreme order of the truth of the divine right faith of the white man mainstream. Religion and a to the manor born establishment as one political faith, to be called the truth. The reactionary right in all its traditional glory, outs itself.

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  203. GK (97 comments) says:

    I would add to ‘intolerant’ the qualities of pompous and obnoxious

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  204. NZD.JPY (130 comments) says:

    Well I think Dover was a waste of my hard earned tax dollars if he sits there in a bloody expensive government and gives labour his vote for all manner of nonsense legislation and then throws a tantrum and storms off to Australia claiming PC drove him to it. It’s a bit bloody late to have this epiphany buddy. He was part of the problem and now he has buggered off to enjoy sunny australia where he won’t pay the price for his poor governance here. If he were a man of principle he would stay and try to undo some of the damage his party created. The fact is he isn’t a man of principle. He is an old school alpha-male wannabe who knows he can’t compete if we don’t give him extra bonus mana for being a guy. This PC rant is a red herring. Yet another under qualified labour mp not prepared to face the music.

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  205. NZD.JPY (130 comments) says:

    Actually i shouldn’t say “here” as if I’m “here”. I’ve buggered off to where I don’t have to face the consequences of his poor governance either. Also now that I’ve taken a deep breath it’s more the fault of those who voted for him. He can go where he likes.

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  206. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Notice how totalitarian bullies like PM back off when they are stood up to ?

    Yo what? How about “Notice how totalitarian bullies like PM go to bed at night?” Would make you look more like someone who can read.

    He deletes posts too, one of the reasons I don’t ever comment on ‘No Minister’ these days. He’s proof you cannot ever trust the left to allow words they do not agree with, and its why left wing blogs (or blog contributors) are almost all a complete waste of time in terms of real discussion. They just will not allow writing that seriously confronts their ideas.. Unless they first “approve” it.

    As long as Redbaiter keeps posting this bullshit, I’ll keep posting the relevant link so readers can see for themselves, rather than relying on Red’s bullshit version of events. Suffice to say, no I don’t let someone who wants to accuse me of lacking respect for property rights then try to order me off my own blog. Try that and it’s you who’ll be coming back later, not me. Not a free speech issue, a property issue.

    Anyhoo:
    Earlier, I posted that people who whinge on about Political Correctness are “unable to endure the fact that others are entitled to find your views offensive and say so.” Redbaiter replies that he couldn’t give a fuck either way, then at 10.26 turns back up to provide a quote from Tammy Bruce, which essentially whinges about how oppressive it is that liberals who find your views offensive will say so. Thus not only demonstrating that Redbaiter in fact does give a fuck, but providing a handy illustration of my point in the process. I guess I should say “Thank you, Redbaiter.”

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  207. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Good morning psycho melt, look I have observed your intense dislike for good ol’ redbaiter and I have come to the conclusion that you are offended by his intellectualism. There can be no other reason, as all you seem to do is attack his character, which does indicate a shallow mentality from a jealous lefty nobody. I don’t place you in the same category as that turnip swatter Paul , however you do carrying on like a whingeing witch with a bumble bee in her bra.

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  208. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    …all you seem to do is attack his character…

    How? By pointing out actual examples of him writing bullshit, and saying why it’s bullshit? I guess that does go to character, but it’s also legitimate criticism – as opposed to Redbaiter’s counter-arguments of “dull brained” or “jack-booted oaf,” which are simply insults.

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  209. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Thank you, Redbaiter.”

    Fuck off Milt, your pathetic attempts to project your constantly erroneous conclusions and distorted descriptions of events as the output of an objective and intelligent person are so boring. You’re a tiny minded unintelligent bigot. Its all you’ve ever been, and its all you’ll ever be, and your attempts to force people to write the things you want them to write on your blog are as much proof of this as one would ever want. If your support for the poisonous concept of political correctness wasn’t enough.

    ..and they are not insults. They’re honest expressions of how I see you Milt. You are to me, with your constant witless failure to ever understand what is being talked about, dull brained. ..and the way you run your blog is in the manner of a jack booted oaf. An ignorant fool with no idea of what to do with power when it suddenly comes his way other than to use it in the most uncivil and ill mannered way. I’m just telling it the way I see it Milt.

    BTW- Here’s positive proof of your attempt to force posters to write what you want them to write. In your own words-

    “If you’re willing to answer the damn question I put to you, (question exampled)) I’ll be happy to overlook your attempt to expropriate my property.”

    People can write on Milts blog, as long as they agree to answer the questions he demands of them. Or they can be booted on foolish and completely irrational allegations of “expropriating property”. Jack booted PC ignoramus. Case closed.

    (I did answer the question actually, it s just that I failed to answer it in the way he demanded.) Never mind. I made the mistake of trusting a leftist. My own error, and I accept it. Just another learning experience in the long road of discovering how utterly repulsive and unprincipled a lot of those on the left really are.

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  210. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Err, I should qualify that remark about trusting leftists. I did not mean to imply that leftists are by nature generally untrustworthy, merely that they cannot be trusted in matters of political objectivity. For example Margaret Wilson’s grossly partisan abuse of the speaker’s position. The leftist’s faith in the inherent correctness of their position combined with their institutionalized amoral conditioning allows them to commit any kind of unsavoury political act as long as it advances the position of socialism. Its actually a mindset that plays a big part in their enforcement of politically correct speech codes.

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  211. PhilBest (5,121 comments) says:

    Paul:”What the fuck is it with Americans. They use the term Marxist as if it is some sort of disease.”

    WHICH IT IS.

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  212. PhilBest (5,121 comments) says:

    Paul:”What the hell was the subprime mortgage debacle in the US about if it wasn’t a failure in the market. A failure so calamitous that it has even affected the NZ economy. Come on why did the market fail us oh so powerful and all knowing market. Where was the inherent stability? Oh the humanity.”

    1) House prices wouldn’t be guaranteed to inflate ahead of everything else if it wasn’t for gummint restrictions on land use.

    2) There has been considerable political pressure on banks to “help the poorer borrower”.

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  213. PhilBest (5,121 comments) says:

    Point 1): http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2008/02/17/land-use-regulation-and-the-credit-crisis/

    Point2): http://www.hinzsightreport.com/2008/03/who-exactly-is-responsible-for-sub.html

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  214. PhilBest (5,121 comments) says:

    Paul: “Tobacco companies have learnt how to ‘hook’ a client very early. Ah the free market and mighty capitalism, responsible for 1500+ deaths each year in NZ. I can’t recall the last communist head count but I’m pretty sure its something around 0.”

    In the former Communist USSR, there was a HIGHER rate of smoking-related death and alcohol-related death than in the Capitalist USA. – sorry to spoil your illusion.

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  215. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    ..and they are not insults. They’re honest expressions of how I see you Milt.

    I get the feeling you don’t hear a lot of honest feedback, Redbaiter – perhaps you don’t get out much? Anyway, here is some honest feedback for you now:

    1. The fact that you genuinely see someone as stupid, pompous, arrogant etc doesn’t make it less of an insult to tell them so. An honest insult is nevertheless, an insult. I’m assigning no moral value to this, merely pointing out a factual error in your post.

    2. You should take into account the fact that neither I nor anyone else gives a rat’s ass how you see me, Redbaiter. Consider: I could offer my honest assessment of your character, which I have to tell you would not be in any sense flattering, but why would you or any other reader of this thread be interested in reading it? By indulging yourself in this way, you’re simply wasting the reader’s time. I’ve said why I think Dover Samuels is peddling a non-issue and only making himself look foolish – in response, you’ve come up only with some honestly-held and amusing, but utterly irrelevant, assertions about my character, personality and intelligence. You might not care how I think that makes you look, but keep in mind that others are also reading.

    I hope that you find this useful. It is offered as honestly as your insults.

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  216. PhilBest (5,121 comments) says:

    What a long thread.

    I have to say, “Reid”, you are on to it. It is a nice change to find someone else who is awake to the “Frankfurt School”, and “The Long March Through the Institutions”.

    I have been saying for some time, that people on the PC Cultural Left are either dupes, or are in on the plot and KNOW that what they are up to, is the destruction of society as we know it, so as to bring about Karl Marx’s “revolution of the proletariat” a different way. “Paul” seems to know a bit about the background theory, but it is hard to tell what category he falls into.

    There are other branches to this movement. Antonio Gramsci was not a member of the Frankfurt School. Fabianism is another movement to consider.

    Herbert Marcuse, another associate of the Frankfurt School, actually coined the term “repressive tolerance”. That is why their political opponents are smeared all the time in extreme language that actually misrepresents them. Note how a loving parent who advocates a light smack, gets hammered with “riding-crop” and “child-beating” analogies.

    Reid posted a few good links. I could post a whole lot more……..

    So “Paul”, if you are one of the “dupes”, if you actually BELIEVE this stuff about “emancipation” and the long-term IMPROVEMENT of society, WISE UP, MAN. COME OVER FROM THE DARK SIDE………

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  217. Buggerlugs (1,592 comments) says:

    Phil –
    I think Paul is actually robinsod with a moderator. The references to the Waffen SS etc. lead one inexorably to that conclusion. It’s robinsod using his mum’s computer and getting her to read posts before he puts them up.

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  218. PhilBest (5,121 comments) says:

    On the undermining of the traditional 2-parent family and social breakdown, READ:

    Charles Murray: “The Underclass Revisited”

    http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.all,pubID.14891/pub_detail.asp

    Charles Murray: “The Advantages of Social Apartheid”

    http://www.aei.org/publications/filter.all,pubID.22252/pub_detail.asp

    Bear in mind that this guy has been researching and writing for 30 years. His tone has become increasingly mocking and cynical as he sees “the social establishment” in denial over the underlying causes of society’s problems. You could summarise it thus:

    OK, if you won’t tackle “fatherlessness”, you are eventually gonna have to tackle crime.

    OK, if you won’t tackle fatherlessness and you don’t like catching criminals, you will have an increasing crime problem, and eventually the voters will force you to do something about it.

    OK, if you won’t tackle fatherlessness and you don’t like actually locking up the criminals that the voters are forcing you to catch, you will continue to have an increasing crime problem, and eventually the voters will force you to do something about it.

    OK, if you won’t tackle fatherlessness, we will just have to have large numbers of people locked up in jail. The USA is merely ahead of the rest of the world on this measure.

    And cut that BS about poverty and inequality. Look at the underlying statistics. The problem? Fatherlessness. End of story.

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  219. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “I hope that you find this useful.”

    Its not useful. As usual, its you going off on a tangent while the issue you need to defend is ignored. Typical leftist strategy. Example last election- Brash met secretly with the Brethren, lets discuss that. Not policy. Here on Kiwiblog- Redbaiter says he doesn’t give a fuck for Milt’s whining. Milt wants to trip him up on that. Not discuss Dover Samuels and political correctness. Redbaiter says his comments concerning Milt’s level of intelligence are not insults. Let’s attempt to point out why he’s incorrect in that, rather than discuss the issue of the thread. Fuck off Milt, you whining boring little pissant. You never have a damn thing to say worth the time it takes to read it. (feel free to regard that as an insult, seeing as it includes the noun ‘pissant’, which unlike an adjective, cannot be held to be anything but an insult.)

    There is one benefit to your posts, and that is that without even being aware of it, you’ve demonstrated one of the problems with the left and their obeisance to their great god of Political Correctness, in that its almost impossible to have any kind of real discussion without tripping over some fuckwitted constraint on language or attitude or political concept that in the eyes of indoctrinated leftists is “unacceptable” and therefore makes one’s argument of no import. You deleted my posts on your blog because in your crippled perception I was writing words that were outside the bounds of what you considered “appropriate”. Therefore my points had no credibility.

    They were merely words that strongly challenged your political perceptions. Therefore they weren’t permitted, but aware that you were on shakey ground by deleting posts, you dreamed up this crazed idea that I was guilty of depriving you of your “property rights”. I deprived you of nothing. They were mere words Milt you stupefied PC dickwad. They were words. Not actions.

    That’s what PC is so often about. Deceitfully presenting words as actions. I didn’t DO anything Milt. I merely used words to explain a political perspective, and in true PC form, you were “offended” that those words expressed ideas outside the permitted discussion spectrum. You committed the action Milt. You deleted my posts. Because you’re a PC stooge Milt. The reason Dover and so many people are leaving this country. They’ve absolutely had it up to here with being ruled in such a heavy handed way by dimwits who think like you. PC nutjobs who attempt in so many ways to stop us saying the things that need to be said.

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  220. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “The problem? Fatherlessness. End of story.”

    Nope. Completely unacceptable. Far too politically incorrect.

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  221. Socrates (84 comments) says:

    Labelling an argument as “political correctness” is the rights equivalent of the lefts use of “sexist” or “racist”. It is as a device, an attempt to shut down debate about a position which those assigning the label find uncomfortable.

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  222. llew (1,533 comments) says:

    I think Dover is reflecting on the stifling red tape, tall poppy, impossible to succeed, odds stacked against me sense that has pervaded NZ, and in particular Maori society.

    I read it as bitterness for being publicly criticised after urinating in a hotel lobby, and for those under age sex allegations.

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  223. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “I read it as bitterness for being publicly criticised after urinating in a hotel lobby, and for those under age sex allegations.”

    You got it (as usual). Dover just made it all up because he’s been victimized for his bladder problems and accused unjustly. Political Correctness is just a complete myth.

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  224. llew (1,533 comments) says:

    Political Correctness is just a complete myth.

    It’s probably not a complete myth, I’m just doubting Dover’s motivation in this instance.

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  225. llew (1,533 comments) says:

    because he’s been victimized for his bladder problems

    That’s a very PC way of putting it actually, were you aiming for that?

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  226. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Hmm, no, you really didn’t take anything useful from that at all, did you Redbaiter?

    Don’t worry, I’m a patient man. Let’s keep working on it, shall we?

    As usual, its you going off on a tangent while the issue you need to defend is ignored.

    This is simply untrue, as I’m sure you’re aware. See this from my previous comment: I’ve said why I think Dover Samuels is peddling a non-issue and only making himself look foolish – in response, you’ve come up only with some honestly-held and amusing, but utterly irrelevant, assertions about my character, personality and intelligence. That still stands. I’m happy to argue for my position, but so far there’s nothing to argue against.

    There is one benefit to your posts, and that is that without even being aware of it, you’ve demonstrated one of the problems with the left and their obeisance to their great god of Political Correctness, in that its almost impossible to have any kind of real discussion without tripping over some fuckwitted constraint on language or attitude or political concept that in the eyes of indoctrinated leftists is “unacceptable” and therefore makes one’s argument of no import.

    Also simply untrue. Or can you point to examples on this thread? (Hint: my pointing out to you (yet again) that an insult is not an argument was not a constraint on language, it was a simple statement of fact.)

    You deleted my posts on your blog because in your crippled perception I was writing words that were outside the bounds of what you considered “appropriate”.

    You do a very good impression of having actually convinced yourself of this. However, it also is untrue, as will be evident to anyone who actually reads the thread in question.

    That’s what PC is so often about. Deceitfully presenting words as actions.

    Words are not actions, but they do have consequences, Red. They mean things, and people understand those meanings, and hold you accountable for what you meant. I know you have trouble with this concept, spending all day blathering on the internet as you do, where you don’t ever have to be accountable for the bollocks you spout. But in real-life situations (I know you’ll be struggling here – real life situations are the ones involving the human relationships people have, the ones that don’t involve a computer), people have to accept that their words have meanings, and stand by them. I generally find your words neither challenging nor “inappropriate,” whatever that means – for the most part I see them simply as childish abuse and rank hypocrisy. On the occasion you’re referring to, I had the opportunity to rub your nose in that hypocrisy and I took it. You clearly learned nothing from it, but that doesn’t surprise me.

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  227. gd (2,286 comments) says:

    I find the PC culturally stupid to be thin lipped and who look at you as if yourve just farted in the presence.

    Superior know it alls Best way to deal with them is to tell unPC jokes, they are humourless colourless wankers

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  228. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    There is the term communist, the term socialist and now the term political correctness – which apparently describes fellow travellers of socialists and communists.

    It seems to apply in the areas of social policy and culture, as much as economics and politics. Anyone in defence of secular society, and in this not identifying with or suppressing a religious identity and the assertions of it’s values in modern society (here being post modernist), is at risk of being called liberal – someone deceived by or willingly part of political correctness. This speaks to what is called traditional values conservatism, where the resistant to change establishment (the aging and the property owners) fears each new generation capable of remaking the world in there own image.

    PS

    The “real” man, the white man, is of course proud of being an insensitive insolent prick – vomiting in Courtenay Place around midnight each Friday, destroying park grass while driving his car in circles on Saturday afternoons to prove he is still a tough despite being too scared to play rugby against Polynesian teenagers, being indoctrinated at National Party electorate meetings in Stokes Valley to think PC is the spell cast on liberals by hot socialist women from the Green Party who hand out horny goat weed to like jellybeans.

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  229. llew (1,533 comments) says:

    hot socialist women from the Green Party who hand out horny goat weed to like jellybeans.

    Holy hell! Can someone post the dates of these things in advance?

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  230. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Those of the right first have to spend a weekend providing fertilizer for the organic gardens before they can gain admittance to the private indoctrination ceremonies, where the horny goat weed is handed out like jellybeans. It’s not a free lunch on the left you know …

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  231. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    SPC; are the “hot socialist women” from the dropkick utopian bearded ladies club?And by the way, I love playing rugby against coconuts.

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  232. llew (1,533 comments) says:

    Starting to sound like the freemasons….

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  233. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Obviously it’s only touch at golden oldies level

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  234. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “You clearly learned nothing from it, but that doesn’t surprise me.”

    Gawd you’re a fucken waffler Milt. What a load of pointless old garbage all that was. Except you’re wrong on the learning issue. I did indeed learn something, In fact I’ve already alluded to it-

    Quote

    “Never mind. I made the mistake of trusting a leftist. My own error, and I accept it. Just another learning experience in the long road of discovering how utterly repulsive and unprincipled a lot of those on the left really are.”

    Unquote

    I learned Milt that your just another insipid autocratic ignorant control freak leftist with the usual complete disregard for freedom of political expression and the usual endless meaningless waffle when it comes to justifying your reasons for denying anyone freedom of expression. Its all utter bullshit Milt. There’s only one reason you decided to delete my posts, and that is, (apart from the leftist’s usual contemp for free speech) because you’re just an ill mannered poorly educated jackbooted moron with no ability to respond on the issues that count.

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  235. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “That’s a very PC way of putting it actually, were you aiming for that?”

    Not really. He’s at that age isn’t he? Isn’t that what he said?

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  236. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “The “real” man, the white man, is of course proud of being an insensitive insolent prick”

    You commie dumbfucks are so out of touch. Your political perceptions so dated. Tammy Bruce, who wrote the above criticisms of Political Correctness, is a Democrat voting lesbian activist.

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  237. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Soft pc males and hard-hairy-wart ridden females decry the male image. A real man is not a made in NZ wimp. How pitiful these lefty spin doctors are. They would run a mile million miles an hour if confronted by real blokes. For years men have been bombarded from every side and now is the time to fight back against these cowardly communist cockroaches. Stuff the pc approach . A NO MORE MR NICE GUY attitude is needed to SMASH these lousy pricks back into the OFFAL PIT !!

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  238. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    …you’re just an ill mannered poorly educated jackbooted moron with no ability to respond on the issues that count.

    Oh, how we laughed!

    Just for the record, this

    I’ve said why I think Dover Samuels is peddling a non-issue and only making himself look foolish – in response, you’ve come up only with some honestly-held and amusing, but utterly irrelevant, assertions about my character, personality and intelligence.

    still stands…

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  239. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    A real man is not a made in NZ wimp.

    Real men? Real blokes? As opposed to all the fake ones, who are presumably hiding a vagina in their pants? Or what? You may not have noticed Dad4Justice, but a “man” is an adult male human. Your personal preference as to how they should act is really of interest only to yourself.

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  240. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..Good morning psycho melt, look I have observed your intense dislike for good ol’ redbaiter and I have come to the conclusion that you are offended by his intellectualism..”

    d4j goes on the short list for ‘funniest line in march’..

    (i’ve heard ‘good ol’redbaiter’ called a few things before..

    ..but never an ‘intellectual’..

    who knew..?..)

    phil(whoar.co.nz.)

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  241. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Oh look, it’s the lefty con artists psycho whoar, who are riddled with moral cowardice.

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  242. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    Redbaiter said “You commie dumbfucks are so out of touch. Your political perceptions so dated. Tammy Bruce, who wrote the above criticisms of Political Correctness, is a Democrat voting lesbian activist”

    As Tammy Bruce said in her book The Death Of Right & Wrong, the utter contempt, derision and indignation wielded at her when she refused to acquiesce to the “progressive”, “alternative” lifestyle doctrines of the gay elite. Once again, political correctness.

    These totalitarian idealogues of the left just hate to be called on it, that’s all. I’m looking forward to when Psycho Milt resorts to calling me a dumbass again. Psycho Milt? Pharisaical Milt.

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  243. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    all ‘grants’ are kinda ‘funny’..eh..?

    dunno what it is about that name..?

    (anyone got any good ‘grant’ stories..?)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  244. Buggerlugs (1,592 comments) says:

    “Soft pc males and hard-hairy-wart ridden females decry the male image. A real man is not a made in NZ wimp. How pitiful these lefty spin doctors are. They would run a mile million miles an hour if confronted by real blokes. For years men have been bombarded from every side and now is the time to fight back against these cowardly communist cockroaches. Stuff the pc approach . A NO MORE MR NICE GUY attitude is needed to SMASH these lousy pricks back into the OFFAL PIT !!”

    The Country players looked at each other in bemusement. “Did you understand any of that?” asked Hamish. “Something about smashing the offal pit,” mumbled Hamish. “We don’t have an offal pit,” whispered Hamish. “Shut up and let’s get the game over with,” said Jeff, the only non-Hamish on the team, who had an inkling the coach had not had anything for breakfast.

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  245. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    don’t waste valuable bandwidth with your mad ‘gibberish’..eh..?

    wassup wit ur name..eh..?

    sticky bud seedless head cool …eh…?

    grants(whoar.co.nz)

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  246. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    d4j

    Why don’t you quote Henry Makow because a Jew (convert to Christianity) cannot be anti-semitic because communism and feminism are Jewish conspiracies against the white race western Christendom and the truth cannot be …

    The fact is the majority of those attacking PC are white men (those real super man power Christians) and their “Promise Keeper” (standing by her man) girlfriends.

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  247. Buggerlugs (1,592 comments) says:

    Here’s a grant story for you phool:

    Phool went to Kiwibank.
    “Where’s my grant?”
    “You have to get a real job now,” said the teller. “You’re the only person in New Zealand without one thanks to National.”

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  248. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    These totalitarian idealogues of the left just hate to be called on it, that’s all. I’m looking forward to when Psycho Milt resorts to calling me a dumbass again.

    Called on what, exactly? Disagreeing with you? How dare we!

    And what do you mean by “resorts” to calling you a dumbass? Because I have no response to the awesome arguments you’ve presented? Hellooooo…

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  249. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Oh how we laughed”

    “How dare we!”

    Sad collectivist white ant. There’s one of you. Frightening as it is Milt, you’re on your own. Its “I”. Aren’t you ashamed by your pretence? I guess not. Milt Phool, they’re always pretending there’s more than one of them, and never bothered by having their delusional state of mind pointed out. Weird.

    “The fact is the majority of those attacking PC are white men”

    Like Dover Samuels.

    “and their “Promise Keeper” (standing by her man) girlfriends.”

    Like Tammy Bruce.

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  250. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    “Called on what, exactly?”

    Hellooooo…any viewpoint which differs from your mind inculcated PC social codes. Why can’t you grasp such a simple premise?

    “Because I have no response to the awesome arguments you’ve presented? Hellooooo…”

    And what counter arguments have you presented ? Apart from calling everything “bullshit”. Disagreement is fine, but totalitarian idealogues like yourself want everyone to think in an approved, predetermined manner. It would be amusing – just maybe – if it wasn’t so heartachingly tragic, that folks like yourself have managed to swallow so much of that neo Marxist, secular progressive poison. Can’t you see that you’re merely an indoctrinated minion serving a power obsessed, despotic political ideology? When the new world order happens Milsy, I hope you are given the role of Syme, not O’Brien, because Room 101 for me will involve being forced to listen to your tirades of secular-progressive, socialist nonsense.

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  251. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Redbaiter: “Oh, how we laughed” is a quote – can’t remember where from exactly now. It was indeed only me laughing. “How dare we” is what you get when you and Grant reply to me, an individual, as though I were a surrogate for every lefty you despise in the entire world. Easy enough to avoid – just write as though I was an individual rather than a straw man for your hatreds.

    Grant wrote: Hellooooo…any viewpoint which differs from your mind inculcated PC social codes. Why can’t you grasp such a simple premise?

    Er, because it doesn’t make sense, for one thing.

    And also: And what counter arguments have you presented ? Apart from calling everything “bullshit”.

    Well, clearly you have as much difficulty with reading comprehension as Redbaiter. Yet again: I’ve said why I think Dover Samuels is peddling a non-issue and only making himself look foolish – in response, you’ve come up only with some honestly-held and amusing, but utterly irrelevant, assertions about my character, personality and intelligence.

    Either of you? Something of moment to contribute? Anything?

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  252. Psycho Milt (2,412 comments) says:

    Sorry chaps, time for the totalitarian bully to back off now he’s been stood up to (ie, it’s bedtime). Think we’ll manage a third night?

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  253. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    “Easy enough to avoid – just write as though I was an individual rather than a straw man for your hatreds”

    Er, Here we go, creating and exploiting divisivenesss, brandishing myself as a “hater”. I’ll put a star on my jacket so you can identify me in the street.

    “I’ve said why I think Dover Samuels is peddling a non-issue and only making himself look foolish”

    What non-issue is that precisely? You response to this following comment….

    “Kiwis of Maori descent and those not, get on better here than back home, why because there is no gravy train, no maori victim culture, its about work and get on. We identify with each other through our common heritage as New Zealanders. We all support the All Blacks and our respective S14 teams, and love a beer and a laugh (often at the expense of Ozzies)”

    PM said ….”It’s nice to know we’re exporting these fucks to Aus”

    What a superlative argument you’ve formulated against those who don’t conform to your indoctrinated political ideology. Nice tolerance and acceptance for the diversity of ideas Milt. Arrogant, pompous, Muldooonist, obnoxious and egotistical.

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  254. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    “Sorry chaps, time for the totalitarian bully to back off now he’s been stood up to (ie, it’s bedtime). Think we’ll manage a third night?”

    Yep, go home now with some vestigial remnants of your ego intact. Because that is all that really matters to totalitarian idealogues like yourself isn’t it Milt? Your ego.

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  255. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Hamish said ruck the shit out of the commie cowards and the coach got para at the after match, as the Country lads posted a cricket score.
    Cousin Bruce bashed Trevor in the carpark and we threw him in the offal pit along with all the dyke’s.

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  256. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    We know the white man is right to defend his truth against what is “PC”, because one Jew, one Maori and one lesbian country and western singer said so …

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  257. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    Sorry SPC, but the only amicable contribution you can possibly offer this forum is silence. Come back when you can at least echo the caterwauls of your far-left secular progressive masters with some degree of decorum.

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  258. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “because one Jew, one Maori and one lesbian country and western singer said so …”

    Many more say so actually. Why would you lie? Because without lies, leftists have nothing.

    http://www.google.com.au/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=dislike+of+political+correctness&btnG=Search&meta=lr%3Dlang_en

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  259. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    That’s a “confession” of intellectual cowardice. Go and do not transgress against others whom you are unable to adequately debate with, right wing child of the white race.

    Oh does far left make the left seem extremist and marginalised. Does extreme right portray the right as opposed to modern democracy and the equality of all groups in it, from religious and ethnic minorities to those recently acquiring the vote – feminists. The people, benefiting from the human rights advocacy of those of PC.

    One voice of decorum, one voice of the amicabale, one voice in accord, “our voice” or silence? Sounds extreme right.

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  260. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    redbaiter

    If people present the opinion of one Maori man and one white lesbian as evidence, what do you expect. It’s not a lie to say that is not a convincing rebuttal/refutation/response.

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  261. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    It is a deliberate dishonesty to project that they are the only dissenters

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  262. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    “right wing child of the white race”

    To hell with you and your encouragement and exploitation of divisiveness.

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  263. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Ah yes, the religion of the men of the white race sends those who oppose them to hell doesn’t it. The ruling order of the extreme right anointed by their God. And I suppose they are still waiting for the one “on the right” to come and fulfill their hope for a world that only includes those in their own white race or by religion adoption image.

    Sorry, but some have to say no and say why.

    Nice touch to suggest that those seeking a society in which all are equal are the ones who are divisive. More one voice, one order of mainstream rule nonsense.

    Redbaiter,

    But as I did not do that, but merely mock the pathetic attempts to defend the white mans self interest by citing one Maori and one lesbian in support of a reaction against PC, it is you who made the baseless allegation.

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  264. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    Ahh, even more encouragement and exploitation of divisiveness.

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  265. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “But as I did not do that”

    Jeez, yet another looney tunes leftist. So many of them are nutters. Mock? Hahah, you timewasting racist dumbfuck. Mocking takes some small degree of intelligence. You’ve yet to display that modicum.

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  266. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Yes, anyone in the way of the mainstream one voice order of rule, is being divisive. Critical thought and dissent is of course to be called heresy and sedition … . That’s extreme right all right.

    The last card of the extreme right, is to paint the black rain white noise scenario where liberals are portrayed as divisive against the white race tradition mainstream for multi-culturalism, secular society, and the equality before the law citizenship (for all) premised on a Bill of Rights/Human Rights Act.

    redbaiter

    Some people, you seem to be one of them, go into default mode, when reason leaves the building and cartoonish resort to paint a picture by character assassination is considered to be clever.

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  267. PhilBest (5,121 comments) says:

    Notice that none of these defenders of PC DENY the points I have posted here, that their program is not improving society, but in fact is undermining it.

    Good on ya Redbaiter, Reid, and the others that are wise to “the long march through the institutions”. Like you told me once, Redbaiter, we need to keep up the fight. CALL THEM ON THEIR LIES every time. Their opponents are NOT “child beaters”, “wife bashers”, “racists”, “bigots”, etc, just because THEY say they are. They have to use these tactics because they actually cannot compete in a factually based argument.

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  268. vto (1,131 comments) says:

    well I’ll be….

    I’ve just seen an ad on the tele with some afro-americans going on about how their race is physically superior (and being quite smug about it).

    What would the reaction be if there was a similar ad where some euro race went on about how their race is mentaly superior?

    Fucking racist

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  269. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Your conspiracy theory is not a fact.

    Calling Marxism a disease and saying, PC support for “emancipation” is wrong, is not a fact.

    But it shouts the out the idea that the self-interest of the white man is threatened when others have equality in society.

    So you think that the access of women to divorce has ruined society and you know that you cannot change that.

    What’s left, then

    shared parenting laws to discourage divorce
    no support for women with children, unless they work for their welfare

    What’s the “white man” solution to the “problems” of relationship failure and a woman’s sovereignty over her fertility?

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  270. vto (1,131 comments) says:

    white man, spc = scum of the earth.

    nothing they/we/you say will be taken seriously because they/we/you are just a white man and they/we/you are tainted by their/our/your race and gender.

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  271. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    vto calls for, the they, the we and the you, to be white men (limit debate and the franchise to white men?).

    Where do you stand on civil unions and genetic engineering enabling children with two white fathers (it sure doubles the odds against fatherless children).

    A certain paranoia has at it’s source, two realisations, first white men are not a majority in society and second other groups realising that the structure of power in society was formed in the age of unilateral white male power.

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  272. vto (1,131 comments) says:

    SPC, you asking me those questions re civil unions and genetic engineering? Not sure what they have to do with racism and sexism, which was my point (see post a couple further up).

    And it aint no paranoia. Men, and white men in particular, have been subjected to the sort of taunts in recent years that they have been told to stop themselves (examples – the ad mentioned above (try that in reverse). white races not invited to indigenous events (why not?). men portrayed as lazy slobs (can that be done for fat women?). They come thick and fast today – the white male is a legitimate target for some reason but no other ethnic group is. And dont deny this. Though no doubt you will have ‘an excuse’.

    Your two realisations are quite facile and of no use. Tell us something we don’t know. Things like that change over long long periods of time, as it is right now. Fine.

    It is the double standards that are applied to racism and sexism today that spurred me into the post above. The ad on tv last night exemplified it perfectly. You should check it out.

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  273. tom hunter (4,853 comments) says:

    Vto

    I hardly watch TV, free-to-air TV even less, and the wasteland that is TV1 not at all.

    But in trying to catchup on highlights of the Black Caps wonderful win the other night I found myself switching between channel 1 and 3 and caught the ‘Black’ advertisement that you are talking about.

    And you’re right. I’m seldom surprised by anything I see or read nowadays but that ad left me dumbfounded. A doppelganger for the Aryan Brotherhood but brought into prime-time TV. No doubt the advertisers, desperate to break through to the jaded masses, thought its shock value would be worth it, but even by the crass standards of commercialism I think it breaks new ground in promoting racism.

    But you can bet that the left will have little to say beyond the decades old argument that such things are merely justifiable reactions to the power and control exerted in society by white males. See SPC’s comments above.

    The left make no bones that it’s all about power and control but the 1984 trick they play with that theme is the ultimate victim card of powerlessness (can be applied to any victim group) they can claim they represent in order to justify their hold on power and control. No matter how long the SPC’s of the world are in power they’ll still be able to claim that they are powerless, at the mercy of mysterious, hidden forces in society that can be countered in no other way.

    As I wrote once before:

    Hate is Love? War is Peace? Pah, crude! Power is Powerlessness is infinitely more subtle and brilliant.

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