One pissed off columnist
July 30th, 2008 at 11:37 am by David FarrarAn e-mail by David Cohen on a journalism list alerted me to this wonderful e-mail from The Times’ restaurant reviewer Giles Coren to the sub-editors. Read the whole thing, but here are the highlights:
I wrote: “I can’t think of a nicer place to sit this spring over a glass of rosé and watch the boys and girls in the street outside smiling gaily to each other, and wondering where to go for a nosh.”
It appeared as: “I can’t think of a nicer place to sit this spring over a glass of rosé and watch the boys and girls in the street outside smiling gaily to each other, and wondering where to go for nosh.”
There is no length issue. This is someone thinking “I’ll just remove this indefinite article because Coren is an illiterate cunt and i know best”.
He does not hold the language back!
Well, you fucking don’t.
This was shit, shit sub-editing for three reasons.
1) ‘Nosh’, as I’m sure you fluent Yiddish speakers know, is a noun formed from a bastardisation of the German ‘naschen’. It is a verb, and can be construed into two distinct nouns. One, ‘nosh’, means simply ‘food’. You have decided that this is what i meant and removed the ‘a’. I am insulted enough that you think you have a better ear for English than me. But a better ear for Yiddish? I doubt it. Because the other noun, ‘nosh’ means “a session of eating” – in this sense you might think of its dual valency as being similar to that of ‘scoff’. you can go for a scoff. or you can buy some scoff. the sentence you left me with is shit, and is not what i meant. Why would you change a sentnece aso that it meant something i didn’t mean? I don’t know, but you risk doing it every time you change something. And the way you avoid this kind of fuck up is by not changing a word of my copy without asking me, okay? it’s easy. Not. A. Word. Ever.
I love the Yiddish references.
2) I will now explain why your error is even more shit than it looks. You see, i was making a joke. I do that sometimes. I have set up the street as “sexually-charged”. I have described the shenanigans across the road at G.A.Y.. I have used the word ‘gaily’ as a gentle nudge. And “looking for a nosh” has a secondary meaning of looking for a blowjob. Not specifically gay, for this is soho, and there are plenty of girls there who take money for noshing boys. “looking for nosh” does not have that ambiguity. the joke is gone. I only wrote that sodding paragraph to make that joke. And you’ve fucking stripped it out like a pissed Irish plasterer restoring a renaissance fresco and thinking jesus looks shit with a bear so plastering over it. You might as well have removed the whole paragraph. I mean, fucking christ, don’t you read the copy?
3) And worst of all. Dumbest, deafest, shittest of all, you have removed the unstressed ‘a’ so that the stress that should have fallen on “nosh” is lost, and my piece ends on an unstressed syllable. When you’re winding up a piece of prose, metre is crucial. Can’t you hear? Can’t you hear that it is wrong? It’s not fucking rocket science. It’s fucking pre-GCSE scansion. I have written 350 restaurant reviews for The Times and i have never ended on an unstressed syllable. Fuck. fuck, fuck, fuck.
This is a man who takes his columns and language seriously!
In NZ, the sub-editor would probably win a personal grievance for hurt feelings 
July 30th, 2008 at 11:47 am
The link is totally messed up! Luckily, there is Google.
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 11:52 am
So the Food reviewer for The Times has a better grasp of English than the f**tards who drafted the EFB.
Now that’s gay.
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 12:25 pm
More here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/jul/25/pressandpublishing.thetimes
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
I’m glad to see someone with a real passion for the English language. I only wish that it was taught better at school here and that I haven’t made a grammatical, syntactical or spelling error in this comment!
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
Haven’t been able to see the sub-editor’s reaction yet…
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
labrator – well, it’s not entirely clear whether you wish “real passion for the English language” was taught better, or whether you wish the English language was taught better.
You could add a comma after “here”, but I don’t believe one is required.
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Giles Coren seriously needs to get a life. Or stop mixing booze with his prozac.
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
They have replied.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/jul/29/sundaytimes.pressandpublishing
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 12:49 pm
In his favour Giles Coren has a hot sister.
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
He could put in for ACC, were he here, but as he clearly takes pride in his achievements he wouldn’t do so for something so trivial- but he certainly has made his point.
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
sheath:
Nice! And they are quite right, a well-spoken arsehole is nonetheless an arsehole.
The bit about “becomes disproportionately abusive… when questioned” is something that some KB commentators could do well to ponder on.
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
This guy is a hoot… further messages on this link.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/jul/25/pressandpublishing.thetimes
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
I believe the expression is “pompous git.”
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Um, who knew that there was an alternative meaning for a colloquially Anglicised noun-form Yiddish bastardisation of a German verb? I mean, I’m all for not dumbing things down, but seriously?
[DPF: I think Coren's point is he did know, so the subs who don't know such stuff should not edit his copy!]
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
My thoughts…transmogrified, Keith. Who knew food critics could be so damn literate?!
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Well hes not the only one who thinks correct language is important. You should have seen the Eye to Eye progamme on Sunday.
It was about maori language week. The panel was Lindsay Perigo and the ex Rotorua councillor who thinks that most things maori are a total and complete waste of time. There was a firebrand maori guy called Vercoe (apparently he took his maori language primary school down to the court to protest about the terrorist arrests over Bay of plenty way – those kids are really going to make a contribution in furture – probably to the prison population) and the ex head of the Maori Language Commission – who was realtively reasoned.
When Perigo and the ex rotorua councillor suggested that maori language was of no interest to them, the Veroce guy became enraged. (This was beside the claim of terrible insults for incorrect pronounciation of maori). I think the firebrand would have them taken out and shot if he could have his way.
I happen to agree with Perigo and the other bloke. I think we should have compulsory second languages – but not just maori. almost any language would be more useful for most people – and Mandarin/cantonese will be a very good one to have some knowledge of seeing as they just might be telling us all what to do in 50 years or so – and it will be very helpful to know how to say ‘Yes boss’ in his language.!!!
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
“the Fourth Estate and opposition parties not only do not probe and expose evil, but also lick its every last orifice.”
Heh, Lindsay Perigo has a thing or two to teach us about language all right.
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
If some unknown hack wrecked my punchline, I’d be pretty narked off too. Coren’s using reasonable farce.
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
haha the best the sub editor can come up with is “… don’t be so rude…” and totally ignores that they fucked up. I bet they vote to the left.
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 3:04 pm
Hiliarious exchange. There is something so very amusing about completely disproportionate responses.
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
yup
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
labrator: “I’m glad to see someone with a real passion for the English language. I only wish that it was taught better at school here and that I haven’t made a grammatical, syntactical or spelling error in this comment!”
I wonder whether the correct form of the future subjunctive here should be “were”.
Stephen: “My thoughts…transmogrified, Keith. Who knew food critics could be so damn literate?!”
Tony Simpson.
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Shades of the recent ‘mobius’ exchanges on Journz!
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Barry, yes boss in Maori, easy my dear boy, just drop to your knees
Vote:while pulling your forelock and calling out yes massa
The Maori language can be useful as when one gets some pompous
prat of a immigrant pommie cop demanding your name and address.
Just answer him in te cuzzy-bro, it is legal.
July 30th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
AH, a man after my own heart. As I think the conchordes said “somes been fucking with my shit”
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 7:38 pm
I thought Tony Simpson was more of a writer first.
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Stephen, He has written food books, judged restaurant competitions, done radio shows on food…
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 9:24 pm
The sub-editor’s in New Zealand are top notch since the sensible changes made by the two newspaper groups. Would this kind of thing happen in NZ?
Funny that it was leftie journalists having a whine and a moan about staffing changes. Newspapers must stay cost competitive in these changing and interesting times.
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 9:44 pm
Yes, Giles Coren is one example to show the difference between professional journalism and the adolescent school newspaper standard of reporting that passes for 90% of journalism in New Zealand. So much of what is reported on Stuff and NZ Herald, particularly Stuff is an edited copy of a press release, with, if you’re lucky, some quoted comment from an interested party.
Yes the UK is bigger, yes at 80p per weekday copy and £1.90 for a Sunday paper you pay for quality in the UK, but there simply is a paucity of literate, interesting, engaging journalists in NZ. If they do anything interesting, (David Cohen is one, Perigo is another) then they get the scythe of tall poppy syndrome bringing them down to the level of the common grunting oaf. With an education system significantly staffed with teachers with average literacy skills it wont be getting better soon.
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 9:56 pm
Well said Libertyscott.
If only journalists in NZ were not at the same level as this sub-Editor.
Well done to this author for not taking crap. I am sure he takes a crap though.
Vote:July 30th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
OK, so I can’t resist and am about to blow my cover (yes, DPF, I know you know). I saw this piece a week ago. The author is very clever, literate and funny but needs to GET A LIFE. Journalism is not about poetry, it’s not about literary genius, it’s about imparting knowledge in a defined space and time and MAKING THE BUGGER FIT!
You want to be appreciated for your literary genius and knowledge of the subtleties of English? DON’T WRITE FOR NEWSPAPERS! THAT’S NOT WHAT THEY DO! Write a book, write a poem, write a song lyric, but don’t work for newspapers. (Yes, Francis, or is that Frances, it is the Mobius debate all over again.)
Newspapers tell the news to very busy people who only very reluctantly read them. And they try to make money at the same time. It’s a big ask and there’s no time or space for self-important wankers! I’d love that they angsted (have I just created a new verb?) over every word, but the realilty is they can’t afford to. I say that not as someone who has ever had insight into newspaper accounts, but who has been at the very cutting (pun intended) edge of subbing of both news and features on our daily papers and knows all too well the reality of trying to make the bugger fit.
If you want sub-editors who spend 30 minutes agonising over every cut they make, as opposed to doing what they’re paid to do in the time they’re paid to do it, then be prepared to pay hugely more for your reading material.
For what it’s worth, I’m with you. I’d do it. The lack of attention makes me sick, as does the lack of willingness to pay for skill. Which is why, other than the odd dabble, I don’t do it any more.
But guys, that’s what you’re paying for, and so, that’s what you get.
Vote:July 31st, 2008 at 2:03 am
Come on, it was a brilliant strop that covered more column inches and drew more readers than the original article I’d guess.
Granted he’s probably a cutlery polishing knob twister with too much time on his hands.
Vote:July 31st, 2008 at 10:17 am
labrator
An exclamation mark at the end of the first sentence would have given emphasis; however, I think a colon at that pont would have made the link between noun and verb in the second clearer. English grammar is such fun: I remember, in form three, being told to punctuate a sentence containing the word “had” eleven times in sequence, without changing the word order. It took hours, but finally I achieved it, and have been a punctuatiuon fan ever since!
Vote:July 31st, 2008 at 11:03 am
Lady Penelope
Blow your cover? Nope – I still have an image of a small blond in a big Rolls Royce.
“The author is very clever, literate and funny”. Absolutely agree, one of the best diatribes I’ve read in a long time.
“but needs to GET A LIFE.” (sic) Absolutely disagree, seems he enjoys his life, eating and drinking at the best restaurants, in a city with lots of them, on someone else’s credit card and having time to berate ‘middle management’ for their performance failures – sounds like a blissful life to me.
“Journalism is not about poetry, it’s not about literary genius, it’s about imparting knowledge in a defined space and time and MAKING THE BUGGER FIT!” Well, it used to be about more than that, but if you say so I can only assume you (believe you) know what you’re talking about. Certainly, it seems to me that a lot of modern journalism is about imparting opinion rather than knowledge, but then I guess that would depend on your definition of knowledge. Certainly, in a country where the ‘free education system’ needs all the help and money it can muster, I would like to see it impart (even subliminally,) ‘knowledge’ of reasonable grammar and punctuation as school teachers today don’t seem to understand either.
“Newspapers tell the news to very busy people who only very reluctantly read them.” I’ve never been a reluctant reader of good journalism, even in newspapers.
“And they try to make money at the same time.” Right oh! Start a sentence with “And” and then have me believe the reluctant readers are trying to make money at the same time as writing!
“It’s a big ask and there’s no time or space for self-important wankers!” Making money is a big ask, and ‘self important wankers’ shouldn’t attempt it – interesting, I suppose they should claim welfare instead.
“I’d love that they angsted (have I just created a new verb?)” No problem with the verb, it’s intelligible, but “I’d love” is future tense, and “that they angsted over every word” is surely past tense! I don’t think I understand that bit of the sentence at all.
“but the reality is they can’t afford to. I say that not as someone who has ever had insight into newspaper accounts, but who has been at the very cutting (pun intended) edge of subbing of both news and features on our daily papers and knows all too well the reality of trying to make the bugger fit.” So there is no economic argument here, what we are discussing, with regard to the original article, is the removal of and “a” and a space! This was done to “make the bugger fit”, yet the Sunday Times Magazine is electronically published, and using .pdf proportional spacing on the last line would have enabled two characters to be included rather than excluded. It seems to me that the bugger was buggering about trying to fit the bugger into the buggery page without having to bugger around using the buggery features of the software (with thanks to Mike-the-folk-singer-from-Manchester whose father, a polish post war immigrant, learned his English in the factories of Lancashire).
“If you want sub-editors who spend 30 minutes agonising over every cut they make, as opposed to doing what they’re paid to do in the time they’re paid to do it, then be prepared to pay hugely more for your reading material.” Well, how about another cent to have them spend 3 minutes – is that OK!
“For what it’s worth, I’m with you. I’d do it. The lack of attention makes me sick, as does the lack of willingness to pay for skill.” Then we are together on this. Indeed, I would happily pay decent money, say a flat $2 per paper) for decent skill – but the standard of language would have to rise significantly!
Still a Lady!
Vote:July 31st, 2008 at 11:00 pm
Howdie dave strings.
Thanks for the image. That is partly why I chose my moniker, the other part is what I was going to be called up until I was about 6 monts in utero, when my parents encountered another couple who had given their young daughter an unusal (for that time) name, that really took them. As for the Rolls, I’ve always fancied myself as a Mercedes girl. Maybe one day, I will be. But I’d rather spend the money on travel.
I am assuming I have met you on another forum a long time ago, where your moniker had the word “attached” to it. In which case we have met once at a function held at a (gulp) porcine establishment on the Viaduct several years ago.
But anyway, into your points. Get a life stuff, yes, he does seem to enjoy his life. But he also seems to create for himself totally unnecessary angst. Why get so wound up over one letter when you actually know you’re writing for a newspaper? I’ve been there, done that. And that is simply not what newspapers do (and yes, I’ve done British nationals – and that is what they, especially, don’t do). If you had the life you really wanted – valuing every word and every nuance – you wouldn’t be writing for newspapers. If you are writing for newspapers, having a life means realising that.
Making the bugger fit: actually, at the cutting edge, this is precisely what newspaper journalism is about. And unlike the uneducated, I include subeditors in the definition of ‘journalists’. I’d have to, really, that’s what my postgraduate diploma says I am. Newspapers are defined spaces. When the shapes are presented to editorial, they can do slightly less than fuck all (there are always exceptional circumstances) to change them. No matter how big the story, no matter how brilliant the writing, you still have to make the bugger fit.
I believe you have never been a reluctant reader of news, but nowadays, you are a minority. I have a sister who is a company director, mother, and has an IQ of greater than 145 and she admits she gets to read a newspaper about once a week. She is well within the Bell curve for newspaper reading.
Starting a sentence with “and”. Read about about the mythical rules of English. The placement of conjunctions is right up there with the placement of prepositions and the splitting of infinitives.
Self-important wankers: as to the owners of newspapers, you might very well think that, I couldn’t possibly comment. What I can comment on is the validity of ego in newspaper contributors. Answer: none. Sorry, there’s just no place for it. The aim is to produce the best read with the most information. Ego has no place in that.
You’ve probably got me on the tenses, but you do understand the sentence, you’re just being difficult for the sake of it.
As for thinking newspapers publish pages as .pdfs … sheesh. I can only assume that was a genuine belief based on lack of knowlegde. No, they don’t. And yes, honestly, taking out an “a” can be the difference between a story fitting and not fitting. You have no idea what can be the difference between a story fitting and not fitting – to the unintiated, it can seem ridiculously minor, but that’s why it’s cruciual to have skilled subeditors (cue: rant about what’s happening to subeditors in New Zealand right now – you guys are going to get what you pay for).
Ditto for your next point.
Vote:August 1st, 2008 at 8:01 pm
Penelope
Always the lady – and yes, it was the Loaded Hog, and yes, STILL attached to De (we now share 4 grandchildren!)
You write delightfully in your own write (Lennon) and even with tense juxtaposition are an easy read. I have no great knowledge of the newspaper business I’m afraid, though I did get to tour the first Canary Wharf relocation and it was quite delightful. For some reason I thought they would have gotten to .pdf layouts by now, specifically to make that “fit the bugger in” easier, but clearly I am wrong. That guy who jumped off the back of his ship rather than face the music never did take advice well, that was one of his lesser known vices I suppose!
Stay awhile, and contribute more here. It’s a fun place to test ideas and enjoy company – not as jocular as that other place, but you don’t tend to get thousand line cut and pastes – so in some way’s it is much better.
Hope you found, as I did.
PS Mercs are fords in comparison to a Roller – a TOTALLY different experience, perhaps a Bentley Convertable?
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