Homepaddock to Lord Stern
Homepaddock blogs:
Dear Lord Stern,
Re your suggestion that the whole world should go vegetarian to save the planet.
Why don’t you just shoot all the people?
It would be kinder than letting millions die of starvation which is what would happen if we took your idea seriously.
Yours sincerely
Homepaddock
People keep thinking I am joking when I go on about some Greenies want us to shoot cows to prevent global warming. Well one of the High Priests of global warming has said:
“Meat is a wasteful use of water and creates a lot of greenhouse gases. It puts enormous pressure on the world’s resources. A vegetarian diet is better.”
He predicted that people’s attitudes would evolve until meat eating became unacceptable. “I think it’s important that people think about what they are doing and that includes what they are eating,” he said. “I am 61 now and attitudes towards drinking and driving have changed radically since I was a student. People change their notion of what is responsible. They will increasingly ask about the carbon content of their food.”
Yes eating meat will be like drink driving. I can see it now.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Listening to greenies is a wasteful use of time and creates a lot of greenhouse gases. It puts enormous pressure on the world’s tollerance. A smack in the head is better.
Its not about anything other than telling eveyone else what to do.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Phil U, the floor is yours.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:39 pm
In the future when all this is shown to be the crock that it is I propose that the believers are tattoed with the symbol of a penis on their forehead. We can then point and mock them for being the gullible little monkeys they are.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Play catch up cheesy, most of us have been doing that for a long time now.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Have any non-selfish greenies announced they have shot their dogs yet after last weeks news?
They wouldn’t want to be twice as evil as an SUV driver would they.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
I have 500g of aged eye fillet waiting to be cooked when i get home. My mouth is watering at the mere thought!
October 29th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
I hope someone, somewhere is keeping a list of all those who have pushed the climate change barrow.
Lest we forget.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
Re your suggestion that the whole world should go vegetarian to save the planet.
Why don’t you just shoot all the people?
It would be kinder than letting millions die of starvation which is what would happen if we took your idea seriously.
Whole world goes vegetarian
=
millions die of starvation
Why?
October 29th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
An interesting read (I’m halfway through it) is a downloadable book:
http://www.withouthotair.com/
Whilst the author clearly has an opinion on climate change and our energy future, the bulk of the book is relatively absent of strong views. Rather, he is just doing the maths:
– how much of Britain would we need to put windmills on to get to 10% of our power (he is British)
– what is the maximum energy that can be extracted from tidal power
– how much land area would we need to grow crops on to be able to use biofuels for most of our transport needs.
The answers probably aren’t entirely a surprise to many of us here, but it is nice to have very clear and very well calculated numbers that are consistent across all the different areas of the energy debate.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
This the same Lord Stern who acknowledges that he is not a vegetarian himself.
Do as I say not as I do.
October 29th, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Yes eating meat will be like drink driving. I can see it now.
”
there will be meateaters checkpoints..” have you eaten any meat today sir, I can smell sirloin on your breath “?..”please blow into this bag”…” hmm thats a failed test..back to the station please for a blood test and iron count “…
October 29th, 2009 at 1:54 pm
I have just started negotiations to buy a farmlette for the expressed purpose of growing my own food. Lovely, mouth watering pork and tender tasy lambies. But, in a sop to Lord Stern, we will also have a large and extensive vege garden – to feed the rabbits. Which I will eat, and use their fur for mittens.
October 29th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
I could be interested in purchasing some rabbit fur mittens from you Brian. They will look great with my Sumatran tiger fur cape.
If you add my white rhino skin loafers I think I may have the perfect ensemble to attend my first local Green party meeting.
October 29th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
wow..!..stunning riposte there..dpf..!
“..People keep thinking I am joking when I go on about some Greenies want us to shoot cows to prevent global warming. Well one of the High Priests of global warming has said:..”
yes..?..cd u show us where stern advocates a night of the long knives on the cows..?..or sez the greens do..?
“..Yes eating meat will be like drink driving. I can see it now..”
and that’s it..?
that’s your rejoinder/dismissal of the ideas posited by stern..?
meh..!
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 29th, 2009 at 2:05 pm
dpf..it is really not that long ago..that to suggest a smoker take their habit outside..
would have you regarded as a certifiable loon..
and of course..
the only constant..is change..
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 29th, 2009 at 2:09 pm
It is ridiculous to suggest an environmentalist-derived stigma around eating meat will ever develop. We like our meat far too much for that to happen.
However the wastefullness of meat cultivation is NOT being exaggerated.
October 29th, 2009 at 2:10 pm
Le Grand Fromage, you need to put trousers on before leaving the house. People will think you are creepy otherwise
October 29th, 2009 at 2:13 pm
Im confused, its not OK to eat meat or wear fur because the poor animals will suffer, but if we are not killing animals for clothing and food, then the population will explode meaning we will have to cull the herds – but doesnt that just mean the poor animals will suffer?
October 29th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
yes..?..cd u show us where stern advocates a night of the long knives on the cows..?..or sez the greens do..?
Phil, what do you think would happen to a herd if some of them were not being slaughtered to provide a food source?
October 29th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
…but if we are not killing animals for clothing and food, then the population will explode
Stop breeding them?
October 29th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
we just stop breeding them…bevan..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 29th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
So Stephen and Phil – you suggest sterilisation then? I mean what else are you going to do? Wag your finger and tell them to stop being so naughty? Also until the herd is reduced, they will still be producing greenhouse gasses wont they – now what is the average natural life span of the average diary cow?
October 29th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
Mind you silly me maybe you guys just want to gate them off into bovine concentration camps….
October 29th, 2009 at 2:24 pm
Well Bevan, it’s pretty simple – we stop breeding more of them. Since it is largely done by AI anyway, its not like we’ll even be depriving the cows of a good time
Even when it is by natural conception, it is highly controlled by the farmer. You clearly don’t spend much time on farms.
Actually, there is plenty of good evidence that pastoral farming is one of the most significant enironmental issues of our time. Some of you may love your meat, but thats the reality. Read the FAO’s 2006 report ‘Livestock’s Long Shadow’ to get up with the play. In any case, for most people in the West just reducing your meat and dairyconsumption would help alot.
My last point (for now at least): The idea that stopping pastoral farming will leave to more hunger is so counter factual that it is absurd. One of the major causes of recent food shortages (you will remember the recent food riots) was the use of grains to feed animals to service the growing demand for meat and dairy in emerging middle classes in the Far East. People made a lot of noise about biofuels (which was also to blame) but ignored this other significant issue. Growing plant protein and other nutrients for human consumption (rather than feeding it to animals or growing grass to feed them) will feed vastly more people.
October 29th, 2009 at 2:28 pm
bevan..have you ever heard of artificial insemination..?
there’s been a bit of it around..for a while..?
so..no ‘finger-wagging’ required..
eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 29th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Well Bevan, it’s pretty simple – we stop breeding more of them. Since it is largely done by AI anyway, its not like we’ll even be depriving the cows of a good time
Well then Nandor, what do you suggest we do with the current herd? And who is going to pay for them? The dairy cows are covered, but what about the non diary animals? And who is going to pay to feed them while they enjoy their retirement?
October 29th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
I already take the meat habit outside philu. It is called a BBQ.
October 29th, 2009 at 2:37 pm
This is getting tricky, when we hop out of the car we have to decide which is most important, to have a beer, talk on our phone or eat a steak.
Brian, I have done similar, no pigs but our own eggs, chickens and mutton. Planted firewood, planted an orchard (eighteen trees), plenty of various berries and have the vege garden. I am currently making a post and wire enclosure for the cherry and berry garden and am bird netting it all, it’s a real nuisance drape netting individual plants.
Phil, what is best, for lambs and chickens never to have existed, or to enjoy a better life than most animals (and better fed than many humans), for a while at least……
October 29th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Grain fed animals are way more environmentally damaging than pasture fed. Very few are grain fed in NZ. If Lord Stern cares so much about the environmental impacts, he could perhaps campaign to reduce subsidies to European farmers, and thereby allow more environmentally friendly NZ product in.
What’s that, the Europeans not in favour of that idea? Funny that.
October 29th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
he’s not wrong, farming meat is a waste of land when you look at output per hectare figures. I’m not willing to give it up just yet, however. I guess this is the dilemma for the western world and how we come to terms with climate change (ignoring all you idiot deniers): we like how we live and damned if we change it.
October 29th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
As a spokes person for global warming Lord Stern doesn’t help himself, nor the cause, with his utterances. Still there are those amongst us (politicians included) who would hang off his every word even if he was hitting himself on the head with a hammer
October 29th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
well ..bevan..you have no issues with the basic premise..?
and are now looking for possible hiccups in the execution..?
we are moving right along/at speed .. with the conversation..
eh..?
(and..)
‘happy’ battery-hens..eh pete..?
now there’s a novel concept..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 29th, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Stop breeding them??
Why don’t we stop breeding fuckwits instead?
October 29th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
i agree..!
would you like to be the first volunteer..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 29th, 2009 at 2:57 pm
Happy but not battery – free range-ish, chase them out of the garden, clip their wings occasionally – only their right wings of course, don’t name them after anyone here though – Black, Brown, Light, White, Grey and WOW (scrawny runt from the last batch of 14, all survived, called it Waste of Wheat but it has been laying ok) and Rooster.
October 29th, 2009 at 2:58 pm
No one?
October 29th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Bevan – the current herds? I thought you guys were planning on eating them.
Steve – good on ya mate, you’ll be doing the world a service.
Pete George – I think that’s great. A diverse small scale (organic) farming system is the most productive land use as I understand. Not the most profitable of course. Personally I’d prefer it if all meat eaters would grow or hunt their own. Consumption would be at a much lower level for most people, animals would generally live better lives, people would be more conscious of what they were eating and it would generally be more ecologically sustainable. Failing that, as I said, reducing consumption would help.
October 29th, 2009 at 3:06 pm
And PaulL – of course you are right about the subsidies. Not that it lets NZ off the hook.
October 29th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
I’m with you on that one (very much a case ofdo as i say, not as i do – I currently produce none of my own food), I’ve long said that people, as a whole should get back to producing as much as their own food as possible. Not just meat, but vegetables and fruit too.
Self sustainability might very well be key in the near future.
October 29th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
..I wonder if Tanczos goes around to whores house for bong sessions…
October 29th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Right, that settles it, steak for dinner tonight, biggest one I can find.
October 29th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
I spent Labour weekend on my hands and knees covered in dirt, planting potatoes. I planted rows and rows of Ilam Hardies, Nadine, Jersey Bennes and some Maori potatoes left over from last year. I feel so smugly virtuous I’m in danger of exploding Mr Creosote fashion.
October 29th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
I might just have a grain fed steak tonight before taking the dog for a walk.
Oh and that reminds me, the Patrol needs a service tomorrow as well.
A very apt article:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3011044/Kiwis-suffering-green-fatigue
October 29th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
How much land that could be used for growing food is being wasted to grow dope ? How much electricity is wasted to light up hydroponic setups ? I think the hippies should lead by example and give up this unnecessary waste of the planet’s resources for purely selfish indulgence. Volunteers ?
October 29th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Bevan – Cattle are only fed “grain” because it’s cheap. There’s nothing superlative about it
October 29th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
“….I wonder if Tanczos goes around to whores house for bong sessions…”
i have never actually shared the magic herb with said subject..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 29th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
Actually ‘Put it away’ I suspect that if we compared the amount of land needed to grow hops and barley for beer with what is needed for marijuana we would find mj gave much better bang for buck, resource-wise
Plus organic mj is probably carbon neutral. I suspect if people were allowed to grow it in their back garden then the use of hydroponics and lights would diminish.
Unlike you apparently, I don’t think that pleasure is a bad thing per se, and since both beer and cannabis are negligible contributors to environmental problems, how about you save your puritanicaal approach for something that matters?
October 29th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Sorry to intrude on all the hating… but here is some rational scientific talk for anyone who is actually interested in the relative land-use demands of a vegetarian diet vs a fatty meat diet:
http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/diet-dairy-and-little-meat-may-be-best-planet-14434.html
The study, published in the journal Renewable Agriculture and Food Systems, is the first to examine the land requirements of complete diets. The researchers compared 42 diets with the same number of calories and a core of grains, fruits, vegetables anddairy products (using only foods that can be produced in New York state ), but with varying amounts of meat (from none to 13.4 ounces daily) and fat (from 20 to 45 percent of calories) to determine each diet’s “agricultural land footprint.”
They found a fivefold difference between the two extremes.
“A person following a low-fat vegetarian diet, for example, will need less than half (0.44) an acre per person per year to produce their food,” said Christian Peters, M.S. ‘02, Ph.D. ‘07, a Cornell postdoctoral associate in crop and soil sciences and lead author of the research. “A high-fat diet with a lot of meat, on the other hand, needs 2.11 acres.”
“Surprisingly, however, a vegetarian diet is not necessarily the most efficient in terms of land use,” said Peters.
The reason is that fruits, vegetables and grains must be grown on high-quality cropland, he explained. Meat and dairy products from ruminant animals are supported by lower quality, but more widely available, land that can support pasture and hay. A large pool of such land is available inNew York state because for sustainable use, most farmland requires a crop rotation with such perennial crops as pasture and hay.
October 29th, 2009 at 6:04 pm
Bevan – Cattle are only fed “grain” because it’s cheap. There’s nothing superlative about it
No RRM, its because I’m in Australia and there aint no grass for the cows to eat!
October 29th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Here’s another interesting fact on NZ pastoral farming; some of my colleagues have taken to testing the amount of carbon in their soil every year. What they are reporting is an annual increase of over 9 ton per Hectare of carbon in their soil, times this by 3.3 to get the CO2 equivalents.
Admitted we are using what we believe to be best practice in terms of soil nutrient programs.
Question; can a greenie tell the difference between CO2 emitted by a cow that just a few hours ago was captured by a plant the cow consumed, and CO2 released by burning million year old fossil fuels? According to their ongoing “we hate farmers” campaign, apparently not.
Guess how much carbon, (Methane CO2 plus some Nitrous Oxide for good measure.) is released when soils are cultivated to produce our “environmentally friendly” veggie foods?
Answer; even more than is released when Jungles are destroyed to produce “environmentally friendly” bio fuel and vegetarian palm oil.
October 29th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Matt,
You can’t measure those things any more than you can measure the amount of CO2 between a melon’s ears
October 29th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
“A vegetarian diet is better”
The prick should be thankful I’m not a cannibal otherwise he would be on the shopping list.
October 29th, 2009 at 6:45 pm
So its bad to breed cows, who eat vegetation cause when they fart they release bad gasses, so when we humans are only eating vegetation, whats going to come out of our arse?
October 29th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Growing animals uses more water than growing crops??? Rubbish.
Somehow we are supposed to stop natural precipitation?
October 29th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Article from 4:10pm:
Ms Delahunty’s interview with NZPA was cut short when the connection was lost after the train she was travelling on entered a tunnel.
loooooooooooooooooooooooool
October 29th, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Sarkozygroupie
“Le Grand Fromage, you need to put trousers on before leaving the house. People will think you are creepy otherwise”
Duh. He’ll be wearing his baby fur seal jocks. So no probs!
Mind you, will that outfit work? It might be fine for the odd occasion, but its a bit full on. You wouldn’t wear it every day would you?
Nandor
If you really are the real deal, then why has your mob ignored and failed to articulate the science behind the cause of environmental damage from farming and continued to fail to differentiate between outputs under different management regimes, but instead preferred to push the one size fits all philosophy.
In fairness, I recall that you guys did put up the fight to differentiate sheep and beef from dairy, but you stopped right there. You inferred that dairy was the ogre when in fact, it is ignorance arising from a failure in technology transfer and a desire on the part of those having a vested interest in maintaining the status quo in farming practice that is the real ogre.
Having said that, you aren’t alone. But your mob has always pushed this issue on an all or nothing basis. If you were serious about it as an issue in itself, rather than as part of your long term political agenda, you would actually have been using your parliamentary position to advance the issue on a scientific basis that would garnish support rather than scorn and derision, and would get farmer buy-in. You won’t get buy-in advocating the production of grass by dancing around under a full moon in your jocks and I’m not planning on storing a cow under my house any time soon.
You may genuinely believe we should all keep a cow under the house and a vege garden in the attic, but that just going to happen in your lifetime.
So why not put your effort into making a difference now? If you did, and if you former colleagues did likewise, you might get a bit more credibility or at the very least, mitigate some of the damage that arises every time that … thing … stands up in Parliament for a bit of a karaoke session.
October 29th, 2009 at 7:24 pm
Sorry Hurf, was that “train”?
October 29th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
No, TRAIN!
I SAID TRAIN!
TRAIN!
October 29th, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Nandor at 5:30 – but you’re not considering the nutritional value of beer. The energy and nutrients you get from drinking beer made from x amount of barley it is not much different than what you’d get if you ate the same amount of barley in some other form, such as bread ( the hops is negligible since such a small amount is used ). So beer is effectively a plant based food, which seems to be what your kind are in favour of ? Mary-J has no nutritional value. Also where did you get the puritanical anti-pleaseure straw man from ? I had a very excellent steak for tea tonight and enjoyed every bite thanks very much !
October 29th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
For all you misguided vegetarians here is sound advice from Dr. Liu (well respected dietitian from China) regarding advantages of carnivore diet and lack of exercise. I follow it velly religiously and it has made me the huge man I am now.
Q: Doctor, I’ve heard that cardiovascular exercise can prolong life. Is this true?
A: Heart only good for so many beats, and that it… Don’t waste on exercise. Everything wear out eventually. Speed up heart not make live longer; that like say you can extend life of car by driving faster. Want live longer? Take nap.
Q: Should I cut down on meat and eat more fruits and vegetables?
A: You must grasp logistical efficiencies. What does cow eat? Hay and corn. What are these? Vegetables. So, steak nothing more than efficient mechanism of delivering vegetables to system. Need grain? Eat chicken. Beef also good source of field grass (green leafy vegetable). And pork chop can give 100% recommended daily allowance of vegetable products.
Q: Should I reduce my alcohol intake?
A: No, not at all. Wine made from fruit. Brandy is distilled wine. That means they take water out of fruity bit; get even more of goodness that way. Beer also made out of grain. Bottoms up!
Q: How can I calculate my body/fat ratio?
A: If you have body and you have fat, ratio is one to one. If you have two bodies, ratio is two to one, etc.
Q: What are some of the advantages of participating in a regular exercise program?
A: Cannot think of single one, sorry. My philosophy: No Pain…Good!
Q: Aren’t fried foods bad for you?
A: YOU NOT LISTENING!!! …. Foods fried in vegetable oil. How getting more vegetables be bad for you?
Q: Will sit-ups help prevent me from getting a little soft around the middle?
A: Definitely not! When you exercise muscle, it get bigger. You should only do sit-ups if want bigger stomach.
Q: Is chocolate bad for me?
A: You crazy? HELLO… Cocoa beans! Vegetable!!! Cocoa beans best feel-good food around!
Q: Is swimming good for your figure?
A: If swimming good for figure, explain whales to me.
Q: Is getting in-shape important for my lifestyle?
A: Hey! ‘Round’ is shape!
Well, I hope this has cleared up any misconceptions you may have had about food and drink.
October 29th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Put it away – LOL. Oh, its only my pleasure you object to? In fact cannabis seeds are highly nutritious, very complete source of Omega 3 and other essential fatty acids. So you drink your beer and I’ll eat my seeds and smoke my seedless and we’ll both be content.
projectman – natural precipitation? Are you aware of the current scrap over water rights going on in this country? You think that the growth in dairy farming is being irrigated by rainfall? LOL
Da Vinci – yes, I did make a distinction between dairy and drystock when I was environment spokesperson for the Greens. Drystock farming, as I understand, is significantly less ecologically destablising than dairy, mostly because it is less intensive. That doesn’t mean that there are no problems, but rather that dairy has so much bigger impacts in general and so I am interested in ways to halt or slow down the conversion of sheep and beef farms to dairying.
However I am not convinced about the potential for technology improvements. Sure there is best practice and then there are the Crafars, but to my knowledge even with best practice dairy farming is unsustainable at current levels of intensity. And of course the intention of the industry is to become even more intensive. Destocking would certainly help alot, but I suspect that is not what you mean. Herd homes can help, that sort of thing, but I am not aware of anything (apart from shrinking size and numbers of herds) that will make a real impact on the unsustainability of dairy farming.
As for the Greens taking an ‘all or nothing’ approach, I don’t think thats true. The Greens have never advocated anything more than that farmer should pay for their own environmental costs, just like many other businesses do. It’s just they (you?) have a powerful lobby to prevent this happening.
RRM – interesting article, and it adds a layer of complexity. I’d want to see more than one report, applied to more areas, and I’m not yet convinced that growing crops even on lower quality land won’t still produce more food. Having said that, I think a mixed system is best and I certainly appreciate the chicken manure for helping boost fertility in my garden. Plus the eggs of course. Either way, the article doesn’t contradict Stern’s point, just gives it more nuance.
Matt Long – very interesting. I think soil carbon has big implications, although you’ll forgive me for waiting for some independent verifiable evidence before coming to any conclusions. I suspect the results won’t entirely vindicate pastoral farming, despite your glowing report
October 29th, 2009 at 8:28 pm
Hi Nandor.
I have always thought you were a pretty weird sort of a fellow but I have to admit that as I have aged I have developed a new respect for you.
Its not your policies mind you but I can’t help but feel very envious of your hair.
You see as I have aged I have become very thin on top and I was wondering if you would share (just between you and I of course) the secret of your bountiful locks?
I have never been a pot smoker but if that is what it takes I will give it a go.
I have never been religious but if it grows my hair then Jimi Hendrix and Haile Selassie (but not Brian Tamaki) are my new Gods.
Look forward to your response.——Johnboy
ps: Clives hair clinic is a waste of time!!
October 29th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Ms Delahunty Trains = too noisy.
Sing a song of sixpence
October 29th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
Maybe Krazy Katherine could use her tinfoil hat to improve reception.
October 29th, 2009 at 10:50 pm
“One of the major causes of recent food shortages (you will remember the recent food riots) was the use of grains to feed animals to service the growing demand for meat and dairy in emerging middle classes in the Far East. People made a lot of noise about biofuels (which was also to blame) but ignored this other significant issue. ”
Nandor, come on , really! The use of grains by the Meat and Dairy sectors around the world did not cause the recent percieved food shortages. The acceptance of the marketplace to steadily declining reserves of grain around the globe, combined with the biofuels phenomenon drove the price rises , and focused attention on the world reserves of grain, and the players all got a big fright, governments started slapping export bans on grain and hey presto, a bit of panic. Stocks have been rebuilt , to a point , and the market has settled , well slumped actually , but thats another story. Nice try though.
October 29th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
Nandor
I’m not being snarky or nasty when I say this because I do believe your heart is in the right place in this respect.
But you don’t seem to know what you are talking about and that’s a bit tragic for the melons former environment spokesperson.
If you are serious about this, then get informed. Given your response, you seem to be relying on party line propaganda; not science. Its got nothing to do with keeping a cow in the attic or jumping about under the full moon with your jack crackers flopping about. It boils down to the simple fact that what goes in determines what comes out. Its just a biochemical reaction. Livestock are just a fermentation vat. I’m genuinely disappointed at your response because its just party line rhetoric based on ignorance – like Turia on free trade and Kedgely on water today (good grief). Go talk to a few soil scientists. Then talk to some farmers and find out what actually happens on farms because you don’t seem to know. Then talk to some farm consultants and fertiliser reps. Then go back and talk to the soil scientists. After a while you will start to get a feel for what has been happening and where the problems and solutions lie. But don’t go on swallowing the global melon party line that in this regard seems to have its roots in protectionism.
October 29th, 2009 at 11:00 pm
Hurf
She didn’t … surely … did she??
But then why should I be surprised?
October 29th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
davinci said: I’m not being snarky or nasty…
Yes you are.
And haughty and patronising as well, yet you don’t make any contribution to sensible debate – unless you consider those interminable ad hominem rants sensible contributions.
No facts, no figures, no references to peer reviewed science in credible publications. Nandor comes across as 100 times more considered, informed and, yes, respectful even of opposing views, than you.
I’m not saying he is better informed than you, but you just don’t give us anything factual to go on. Because, in the void you create, we will have to go with Nandor.
It may not be rocket science, but neither is it a secret code.
October 30th, 2009 at 12:17 am
Golly gosh, sorry Luc.
Is there something about indicating that what goes in = what comes out, that livestock are a vat, that its a biochemical reaction, and then suggesting some people, including soil scientists, that he could talk to so that he could form his own opinion that passed you by?
Goodness. Why could that be?
Hmmm
October 30th, 2009 at 8:09 am
Stephen @ 1.47 asked why?
RRM @ 5.43 gives the answer – most food crops require better land than pastures do.
Climate, topography and soils which are fine for growing pasture on which stock can graze aren’t always suitable for cropping.
October 30th, 2009 at 8:34 am
You should’ve put that on your ‘letter’! Seems fairly hysterical and simplistic. I would imagine giving up all seafood would have some ramifications for crop land use too.
I’m far from convinced about ’starvation’ (“According to the USDA, growing the crops necessary to feed farmed animals requires nearly half of the United States’ water supply and 80 percent of its agricultural land. Additionally, animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90 percent of the soy crop, 80 percent of the corn crop, and a total of 70 percent of its grain – wiki”) however – would need some sort of evaluation like RRM’s on the world’s soils, not just New York’s.
October 30th, 2009 at 9:17 am
People should not be required to stop eating dinner which eats vegetables.
October 30th, 2009 at 9:35 am
DaVinciCode
Ignoring some of the more bizarre elements of your post, you have boiled it down to:
“what goes in = what comes out”
Not exactly. Its digested on the way. I realise there is lots of work going on into changing feed to reduce methane emissions, but we have yet to see how big a result that will get – unless something has been published very recently?
“livestock are a vat”
No, they are not. They are a mammal, with a living internal ecosystem.
“its a biochemical reaction”
Your point being ?
“and then suggesting some people, including soil scientists, that he could talk to so that he could form his own opinion”
Well, I have spoken to a range of scientists, farmers, environmental regulators, academics and economists and I have made up my own mind, based on the best information available to me to date. If you think that there is something I’m missing, then spell it out.
By your current line of reasoning one could argue that cars don’t emit air pollution because:
what goes in = what comes out
its a chemical reaction
a car engine is a machine
go speak to someone about it
October 30th, 2009 at 9:59 am
gerard, where did you get “required”?
October 30th, 2009 at 10:36 am
Nandor
In a nutshell, livestock emissions are a product of what they eat and what they eat is a product of how its grown and what it grows in. Its science. You clearly haven’t spoken to the right people. Speak to soil and animal nutrition scientists that don’t have an axe to grind and who can explain to you the fertilityrequirements for growing grass and what happens when fertility is screwed up. You are no doubt aware of the damage that phosphate and nitrate run-off causes, but you don’t appear to understand why that happens and why there was no need for it to happen and how we’ve got to the situation that we’re in. Animals are no different from humans and if they eat dodgy grub, then that has consequences for their health (and on-farm profitability) and their emissions.
October 30th, 2009 at 10:37 am
“Sarkozygroupie
“Le Grand Fromage, you need to put trousers on before leaving the house. People will think you are creepy otherwise”
Duh. He’ll be wearing his baby fur seal jocks. So no probs!
Mind you, will that outfit work? It might be fine for the odd occasion, but its a bit full on. You wouldn’t wear it every day would you?”
Hey, Le Grande Fromage – apart from attending Green parties, what exactly were you intending to do while dressed in that get up? thedavincimode and I are most intrigued as you have clearly put much thought into your ideas of elegance and it seems to reflect some kind of new sartorial superhero. Are you going to save us from Nandor?
October 30th, 2009 at 11:18 am
Yes the whole ensemble seems even more overwhelming the more you think about it. I’m almost sorry for the silly melons, but I’d love to be there.
Maybe he’s planning a career as a mobile judder bar because it would certainly stop traffic.
October 30th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
DVC – you are all over the place. You seem to be arguing that bovine methane emissions can be reduced by a proper fertiliser regime, and you are using nitrate and phosphate run-off as your evidence. They are not much connected. Yes farmers can reduce run-off and nitrous oxide emissions by adjusting fert regimes, but that is another issue. In addition, even if applications of N are very conservative the concentration of urine from densely stocked herds still leads to nitrification of waterways. Thats why the evidence suggests that even best practise dairy farming is unsustainable at current stocking rates.
In any case, we weren’t discussing water quality. Show some valid evidence that farmers can significantly reduce methane emission by adjusting their fertiliser regime and I’ll be impressed. Continue to make general statements of no evidential value and it doesn’t seem worth continuing the conversation.
October 30th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
“Maybe he’s planning a career as a mobile judder bar because it would certainly stop traffic.”
LOL
October 30th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
No Nandor, I’m not all over the place. I’m not using nitrate and phosphate run-off as “evidence”. It isn’t “evidence”. Its just a natural consequence of bad or uninformed practice.
And fert regimes, phosphate and nitrate run-off is very much connected. Urine is not a problem per se; its what in it and the amount of it that that can be problematic and that is a direct consequence of diet.
And intensifcation CAN lead to nitrification of waterways, but it doesn’t HAVE to.
Nandor you either accept what I’m saying is meant in good faith or you don’t. This isn’t a debate as far as I’m concerned because like you, I’m not a scientists and not qualified to explain the bilogical processes that link these issues. This is a highly technical area of science and practice. You can’t boil it down to sweeping generalisations and a back of a postage stamp once over lightly conclusion. If you choose to cling to your generalised views without speaking to qualified people that advise on this issue and deal with it at the coal face with farmers, then that’s your choice. You might consider that if I wasn’t genuine, I wouldn’t bothered to take the time to respond to you.
October 30th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Steve @6:30 Yesterday. The protocols for measuring soil carbon include using GPS coordinates to ensure we deal with the same location, the taking of core samples by an acredited operator at the same time of the year each year to avoid seasonal distortions, analysis of the sample by an acredited lab. Hardly rocket science.
Nandor if you want to buy carbon credits off us, we should be fully audited within 12 months, if you’re not a customer, sod off
November 3rd, 2009 at 10:25 am
millions already die of starvation.
No, that makes sense – there’s the water that’s used to grow their feed, and then the water they themselves drink.