Minto compares Bush to Hitler and Amin
It’s great to be reminded how fruit loopy the far left are. John Minto blogs:
It was dispiriting to see a group of secondary schoolboys hounded by media as they entered the Auckland War Memorial Museum to apologise for their behaviour at a school outing earlier this year when they paid mock homage to the swastika. …
They weren’t intending disrespect to the Jews, gypsies, communists and homosexuals who all faced Nazi extermination efforts. Surely we need to lighten up a bit here.
The same applies to the Lincoln University students who dressed up as Nazis and Nazi victims for a fancy dress party a few weeks back. There were howls of rage and profuse apologies all round and disciplinary action followed.
Was the same action taken against those who dressed up as Osama bin Laden, Idi Amin or George Bush? All of these figures could rightly be condemned for war crimes and genocide.
Yes of course dressing up as George Bush is the same as dressing up as Nazis. I mean, after all, they are all guilty of genocide.
I just love it that there really are people who equate Bush with Hitler. Even after Bush retired from office in accordance with the constitution. They spent years darkly warning of how Bush would become a military dictator supported by the industrial-military complex. Yet somehow we now have Obama as President and a Democratic House and Senate.
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:11 pm
It’s kinda of silly really, if Minto had kept his head down his role in the Springbok tour would have ended up being almost hero status, instead he’ll go down as someone who is more interested in having a cause to fight for, than someone who has any interest in what that cause is.
Mind you I would be wary of suggesting the far left is any less crazy than the far right, they are just blinded by different ideologies.
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:13 pm
DPF – you’ve had a policy in the past of applying Demerits to people who compare Politicians to Hitler. Will that apply to people who comment here?
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:21 pm
And Minto’s thoughts on dressing as Mao, Che, Lenin,…?
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:25 pm
Well perhaps america is not responsible for genocide.
It is certainly responsible for far to many civilian deaths though thats for sure.
and if i was in some of those countries and had lost lots of my family i would want nothing more than to take long warm bath in some us blood.
Man im glad i live in nz and not born somewere that teh yanks want to control.
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:28 pm
He didn’t equate the two. He said they were both guilty of war crimes and (more controversially) genocide.
You equated comparison with equation.
[DPF: The comparison was implicit.]
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:29 pm
Yes, and meanwhile, the right was busy telling everyone how Saddam was ready to strike at the world with his huge stockpiles of mustard gas, nuclear weapons and sarin.
Or did I just misinterpret that? Or do liars and scaremongerers only appear on one edge of the political spectrum?
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:30 pm
I have to say that dressing up as victims of Nazis wins the Poor Taste Award in my book.
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:30 pm
I’d put GW in a much milder category than bin Laden or Amin. But ask what millions in Afghanistan and Iraq (and other Middle Eastern countries) think.
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:34 pm
DPF: “I just love it that there really are people who equate Bush with Hitler.”
I hope you are not equating John Minto with all lefties?
DPF: “It’s great to be reminded how fruit loopy the far left are.”
Oh…
[DPF: I said the far left, as is appropriate]
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Pete George: has been done.
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:35 pm
Keep this in mind next time anyone can bring themselves to watch Backbenchers
Wallace Simpson thought Minto should get a Nobel Peace Prize
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:40 pm
slightly of subject but if you want to know what iranis iraqis and afganis feeel about america just try having a chat with ya taxi driver next time.
always very interesting to hear it from the horses mouth.
carefull though truth hurt sometimes especially on this subject if your yanky lover
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:44 pm
It is so grand that we can pontificate here in safety, whilst others don’t know if they will be alive at the end of the day.
GW like Hitler, I think not.
Hitler – 10 – 30 million
Mao – now looks like 40-60 million
Stalin 20- 30 Million
Pol Pot and others
….
GW isn’t even there, How many Americans has GW killed to stay in power?
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:45 pm
It’s funny that, How they all want to come to America if they can isn’t it?
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Menace – very true. Though I have only ever met one real genuine Iraqi, and he said the Bush (Jr) invasion and removal of Saddam was the best thing that has ever happened to his country.
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:48 pm
This thread was Godwin’d before it even began
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:48 pm
how many people did amin kill..?
how many people did the ’shrub’ kill..?
how much collateral/environmental damage did amin do..?
how much collateral/environmental damage did ’shrub’ do..?
‘dirty’-bombs..?..anyone..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Funny – Minto blogs about how the media and others totally over reacted to stupid schoolboy antics and DPF cites it as a sign of fruit-loopiness on the left.
“It’s funny that, How they all want to come to America if they can isn’t it?”
That’s for one simple reason – America is rich. For the same reason, lots of Westerners flock to high-paid jobs in Saudi and the Gulf states. it isn’t because there’s something admirable about their political or social systems.
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:49 pm
He didn’t say they were identical in degree. He said they were alike in kind.
Minto is assuming that the outrage about kids dressing up as Nazis is due to Nazis being war criminals, and asks if there would be similar outrage if kids dressed up as other war criminals.
If it is not about the Nazis being war criminals, a better response would be, “It’s not about them being war criminals, it’s about them being —insert real reason for outrage here—”
For example, “It’s not about them being war criminals, it’s about them being racist war criminals.” And George W Bush, though technically a war criminal, is arguably not racist, and therefore someone can be angry about kids dressing up as Nazis and not angry about kids dressing up as GWB without being accused of hypocrisy.
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:51 pm
RRM, if you had followed that conversation on hten you should of also found that they all say the yanks should be long gone by now and that the continueing presence has a terrible effect on there country
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Menace – I should have mentioned that he said this to me in about 2005. Thank you for speaking up on his behalf though
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:56 pm
I don’t agree with every word, but Minto’s got this one basically right. The response to the schoolboy nazi incident was a massive over-reaction … even DPF compared their (perfectly lawful and long may it remain so) actions to the actions of criminals!
[DPF: No I did not. I used a well known phrase about punishment fitting the crime. That is a phrase not just used in criminal cases but often in parental discipline, school discipline etc]
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:57 pm
Yes menace. It IS a terrible fate. They are teaching the Iraqis to spell better than do the dead shits from the NZ left and to use capitals and to write coherent short sentences.
October 22nd, 2009 at 4:58 pm
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/08/maybe_it_is_okay_to_call_it_the_mugabe_bill.html
=P
[DPF: The original bill was repressive. It would have made it illegal for me to e-mail someone my opinion on a policy issue. I suggest you remind yourself how horrific the original Bill was]
October 22nd, 2009 at 5:00 pm
Thanks for teh lovely compliment. Getting personal, rofl, im in our country and youl have to live with that buddy.
name calling, reminds me of skhool
October 22nd, 2009 at 5:02 pm
After hearing “war stories” from my parents and their friends about ‘81 I grew up having, then as I became an adolescent, hoping to have a lot of time for Mr. Minto.
Turns out not to be the case. I automatically ignore anything he says. Someone who seems to be automatically paranoid with anyone who is more successful than they are, are not worth listening to.
October 22nd, 2009 at 5:04 pm
just goes to show that some peoples brains are made of baked beans. What a clown.
Who could ever take this muppet seriously?
October 22nd, 2009 at 5:05 pm
Minto is like his mate Trotter both going through a late mid life crisis. The years have flown by and suddenly they realise the world has not embraced their screwed up ideologies, this has become deeply unsettling for both. The the only remedy is to bore the masses with pass tales of the heroic stands on the picket lines and the joys of protest. But their days in the limelight waned many years ago and now they have to resort to musings of madness, lest the people forget they once existed.
October 22nd, 2009 at 5:06 pm
DPF, there are lefties in Britain still blaming Thatcher for everything wrong. As bad as Bush was, Hitler and Amin? Really? You can’t get through to these people. Leave them be.
October 22nd, 2009 at 5:12 pm
As spherical as a tennis ball is, the moon and the sun?
Size doesn’t matter if the point is that they’re all spherical.
Size does matter if the point is that they’re all the same size.
But Minto was clear that he was saying they are all war criminals, not that they had all killed the same number of people.
October 22nd, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Have a look at the red rag, Chris Carter is comparing John Key to Mussolini. No holds barred I’d say. Trev has locked me out of the comments there, but I could come up with some.
October 22nd, 2009 at 5:39 pm
I love the way the Pinko’s constantly try and rewrite history.
Yes, Bush thought there were weapons of Mass destruction in Iraq, so did Blair, Kerry, Clinton, Blick, Howard, and a host of other world leaders.
Do the left remind us of that?…hell no!, they just use it as a piss arse excuse to have another crack at Bush simply because he happened to be a Conservative President.
October 22nd, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Of course, it is much better for right wing nutjobs in the States to compare Obama with Hitler.
October 22nd, 2009 at 5:49 pm
You have tried to claim this before bb.
Blick was not a world leader, and he made it clear he didn’t think Iraq had WMD. And he was the one most likely to know.
October 22nd, 2009 at 5:49 pm
Is Minto really as loopy as you DPF?
“The cancellation of the announced tax cuts for 2008, which can only be seen as a particularly spiteful act, reminds me of how this Government is such an extremist one…. In eight years Dr Cullen has taken a Taliban approach to fiscal strategy.” http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/05/why_this_is_an_extremist_government.html
George Bush flouted international conventions on torture and started a couple of wars. Meanwhile Cullen’s crime was to not give you and your party a big enough tax cut fast enough.
Which comparison (and they’re both ridiculous btw) is more shrill and unhinged?
[DPF: Wow someone doesn't know the difference between hyperbole and an actual serious comparison. Minto seriously stated that Bush is guilty of genocide.]
October 22nd, 2009 at 5:55 pm
big bruv
you seem to forget that the UN voted NO on going into Iraq, which in turn make bush as radical as the man that owned the head he hunted.
So we have thousands and thousands of deaths, (highers death rates than Sudam) that would not have occurered if they had followed what the world as a whole wanted.
October 22nd, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Ryan S>But Minto was clear that he was saying they are all war criminals, not that they had all killed the same number of people.
Helen Clark sent troops to occupy Iraq in 2003 or 2004. So Minto could have said “Was the same action taken against those who dressed up as Pol Pot, Stalin, or Helen Clark?” and his statement would have had some local relevance. You, of course, would have defended him since Clark and Stalin are basically the same, differing only in the degree of their international crimes against humanity.
October 22nd, 2009 at 5:58 pm
menace>you seem to forget that the UN voted NO on going into Iraq
I’ve completely forgotten this vote. Could you provide a cite?
October 22nd, 2009 at 6:19 pm
DPF, do you think the other 98% of what Minto had to say was reasonable? I did – amazingly, considering I usually never have anything good to say about the man.
October 22nd, 2009 at 6:26 pm
DPF: “In eight years Dr Cullen has taken a Taliban approach to fiscal strategy.”
Thanks taranaki, now lets ignore all the good points DPF made in that post and focus instead on DPF comparing Cullen to the Taliban.
[DPF: It was not a comparison. The use of Taliban was used to denote an extreme approach to fiscal strategy (which he had). No one could possibly think it was comparing Cullen to the Taliban]
October 22nd, 2009 at 6:26 pm
Who cares what that loser Minto has to say! Too much media attention is given to dickheads like him. Why do you think there is a brain drain?
October 22nd, 2009 at 6:32 pm
davidp:
these links should be of help
http://monitor.net/monitor/0211a/copyright/ns-uniraqvote.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_actions_regarding_Iraq
and from the latter:
In 2003, the governments of the U.S., Britain, and Spain proposed another resolution on Iraq, which they called the “eighteenth resolution” and others called the “second resolution.” This proposed resolution was subsequently withdrawn when it became clear that several permanent members of the Council would cast no votes on any new resolution, thereby vetoing it…
On September 16, 2004 Secretary-General of the United Nations Kofi Annan, speaking on the invasion, said, “I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN Charter. From our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal.”[1]
October 22nd, 2009 at 6:39 pm
If only Minto had swapped Bush for Christopher Columbus – be no arguing then
October 22nd, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Looks like they have quickly pulled that post from Carter from the Red Rag, maybe DPF should post a copy tomorrow.
[DPF: What post? I did nto see it]
October 22nd, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Off topic?
Some of these two bit protesting arseholes need reminding about how lucky they are to live in a free country.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1XgDkyu9cw
If you do not know what it means, stick your head back in the sand.
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:01 pm
The rest of Minto’s list were war criminals. Idi Amin, Osama Bin Laden – it is considered OK to dress up as both of those (actually, not sure on Idi Amin, but Mao would probably be OK). I kind of agree with Minto’s point – when did Hitler become so special as a war criminal / committer of genocide that he uniquely is someone you cannot dress up as?
I can understand if they were glorifying Hitler, or if they were saying they agreed with what they did. But they dressed up as him for a fancy dress party. Bad taste, yes. But if that was a crime, we’d be imprisoning people with mullets.
So, DPF, I’d say you’re off base here. Other than Minto doing as some on the left are in the habit of doing, and including George Bush in a list of war criminals, the rest of his commentary seems OK.
As for the rest of the debate about supposed war crimes of George Bush, Iraq was illegal yada yada yada, sorry, boring. Been there, done that, no chance of convincing others of your opinions. For me, no, no war crimes, just poor execution of a strategy that I agreed with at the time. And poor execution was pretty much the hallmark of the Bush government, you won’t find me defending them as having done anything particularly well. The thing I think they were philosophically wrong on was allowing torture – that is never defensible. Many of the things that were classified as torture (playing loud music, wiping red stuff they claimed to be blood on them) I didn’t really see as torture, but them defending the principle instead of saying “come on, a bit of tomato sauce?” I thought was the main problem.
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:03 pm
I hardly ever agree with Minto’s opinion columns (e.g. the Israeli tennis player debacle earlier this year – sheesh). but a lot of what he says in this one is right on the button, and it’s a little bit of a shame that you have pulled out the bit you find offensive DPF, and not addressed the rest of it.
Minto has something of a point, in terms of saying that we definitely choose to elevate some certain things to sacrosant levels, and are more easily offended by even the slightest hint of mockery that is waved in their direction – and the Holocaust is a reasonable example of that. There have been plenty of other examples of terrible genocides throughout history, some on similarly massive scales, that never get similar coverage/treatment…
It is unfortunate that he chose to insert a dig at one of his fave targets (GWB) into an otherwise quite reasoned article however, as that has certainly distracted some people from the other valid points he made throughout (in fact you yourself seem to have fallen into that trap somewhat DPF).
Of course GWB is nowhere near in the league of Amin, Hitler, Bin Ladin, or others that Minto didn’t mention (Pol Pot, Pinochet, Stalin etc)… though I guess you could make an argument that he may have been responsible, or at least in charge, when some ‘war crimes’ (of a far lesser nature and scale) were committed. Long bow drawn by Minto, just to take a pot-shot at a fave target however…
It is an interesting thing to think about – we grow up learning about all these horrible things that the ‘other side’ did in WWII etc (Nazis and the concentration camps, Japanese POWs and Death Marches etc), which can seem to somewhat make us feel that ‘our side’ was somehow immune from committing some atrocities – but if the Allies had lost the war, I imagine quite a few US/British generals etc would have been quite legitimately “Nuremberged” for some of their actions during the war too… e.g. fire-bombing some civilian German cities, nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Before anyone jumps on me, of course I am not saying that anything the Allies did equated to the horrors of the Holocaust. Of course not. Not even remotely. But it is interesting to ponder how we sometimes focus on some things, while disregarding or ignoring others, in something of an inconsistent way….
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Menace said…
Man im glad i live in nz and not born somewere that teh yanks want to control.
No, the Yanks don’t want to control anyone. They go in and democratize some totalitarian system and they leave.
Also you’re right in saying that you’re glad that you live in NZ, where the Yanks came to save your grannies & mine from potential total annhilation from the Japs during WW2, so that you can enjoy that freedom today. Now, you & me can both enjoy that freedom we have today because of the sacrifice the Yanks made in their defense of the countries in the Pacific during WW2. Had the Yanks didn’t come to defend us here , then you & me will be writing in Japanese on this very blog in posting our comments. This is the reason that you should salute the US till the day you die.
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Excellent point Paul.
I was at a Uni party about a decade ago, and one of my colleagues came dressed as Peter Ellis, complete with black curly mullet-ish wig, glasses, and wearing a home-made t-shirt with a drawing of a teddy bear with “christchurch civic creche” written around it, like a logo.
Now, you have to remember that at the time Ellis was still in prison for sex offences, Lynley Hood’s excellent book hadn’t yet come out, and a far higher percentage (probably a majority) in the mainstream still thought he was an evil scumbag, guilty as sin. So you can imagine that some people would have found my acquaintance’s attire somewhat bad taste, even offensive. We all thought it was bad taste, and funny as heck. I hate to think what would have happened if Facebook and people posting pics all over the place had been so de jour then….
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:17 pm
“So, DPF, I’d say you’re off base here. Other than Minto doing as some on the left are in the habit of doing, and including George Bush in a list of war criminals, the rest of his commentary seems OK.”
Exactly my point. Though apparently some people disagree (a couple of thumbs downs – first I can recall, wohoo, feel like I’ve lost my Kiwiblog comments-makers cherry, haha).
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:24 pm
@ DPF: I only have a copy on Google Reader, I’ve emailed you that.
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:26 pm
Minto? Ah yea, I remember, it’s a laxative…..
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:27 pm
Jesus Kiwicraig, how can you state the above?!
Yes the allies committed what could be considered war crimes, but in no way were they comparitable to the Japanese atrocities.
Suggest you study 20th Century history – starting with the rape of Nanking
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:31 pm
Make that 20th Century history
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:32 pm
GW Bush will likely go down in history, after noting the damage done to the world economy by the Clinton caused recession and Obama led destruction of the US economy, as one of the better US presidents.
Minto will simply go down.
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:37 pm
“Before anyone jumps on me, of course I am not saying that anything the Allies did equated to the horrors of the Holocaust. Of course not. Not even remotely. But it is interesting to ponder how we sometimes focus on some things, while disregarding or ignoring others, in something of an inconsistent way…”
You seem to have overlooked this part of my comment snowy.
All I was saying is that we pick and choose what offends us, and some things are held up as more sacrosanct/unable to be mocked than others – though there could be arguments made we overlook others. I never said the Allied ‘war crimes’ were comparable to those of the Nazis/Japanese – in fact I explicitly stated they weren’t “not even remotely”.
I’m assuming you’re one of my friendly thumbs-downs, given you clearly didn’t read/comprehend my post – though that is probably somewhat my fault as I perhaps tried to pack too many points in, so the clarity of what I was trying to say was lost. I apologise.
Oh, and I did study 20th century history, as well as American history – and over the years I have studied it from a wider view than the sanitised “us-good, them-bad” versions they teach us at high school.
By the way, I really like America and Americans – far more than many of my acquaintances, so none of my comments were meant as an anti-US thing, just making a philosophical point about how we look at/perceive some things…
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:41 pm
Loopy is right. How does one go about getting this guy sectioned?
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:45 pm
I often wonder what would have happened if the Japs had won. Would we all now be living in a totalitarian state? Could they really have held that much territory? It’s kind of like the concept of a democratic country (and Japan wasn’t at the time) invading another country. So what do they do next – give all those citizens the vote? How does that work – surely they just vote themselves uninvaded?
If we assume (perhaps incorrectly) that the Japs or the Germans had won their bits of the war, surely their regimes would have collapsed pretty quickly. I just don’t really think that there is a viable alternative history where they stayed totalitarian states, occupying basically the whole world. It would have collapsed under it’s own weight.
It is a little like the concept of NZ having a defence force to defend NZ (as opposed to defending our national interests – which usually happens overseas). I’m trying to imagine someone invading NZ and then managing to hold it against the will of the population. It just doesn’t seem plausible – nobody in the world today (except maybe the Americans) can project enough force over that distance to hold a country the size of NZ. They don’t have the landing craft, they cannot stage the aircraft, they cannot put enough troops on the ground. In a pinch they could bomb the crap out of us, but they just couldn’t subjugate the population.
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:46 pm
“Loopy is right. How does one go about getting this guy sectioned?”
90% of the time I would agree, but I actually think that overall this Minto article had a number of good points (of course he threw in a couple of stupid ones as well, that made some people such as DPF ignore the good points). What is the saying about the sun shining on a dog’s ass every now and then, or something like that?
October 22nd, 2009 at 7:49 pm
George W Bush was responsible for the extrajudicial imprisonment and torture of prisoners as well as the denying of access to prisoners by the International Committee of the Red Cross. All of these are War Crimes as defined by Common Article 3 Of Geneva Conventions, 1949; however, their exact applicability in the case of George W Bush is moot because of the US’ Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, which essentially legalised anything which he had done or caused to be done [or left undone or caused to be left undone]. This was in my mind when recently we discussed signing up to UN treaties.
For George W Bush to be convicted of a war crime he would have to be tried- and for him to be tried the USA would have to hand him over- and that [with all respects to Mr Minto] is unlikely. Until convicted the claim that he is a war criminal is just propaganda.
As for genocide- which ethnic, racial, religious, or national group did George W Bush deliberately and systematically set out to destroy? Was Mr Minto thinking that Al Qaeda qualify as an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group?
October 22nd, 2009 at 8:01 pm
I have never agreed with anything john minto has ever,ever ever said until today.
October 22nd, 2009 at 8:03 pm
No negative karmas from me kiwicraig. I did read your post and appreciate your acknowledgement that Axis war crimes were worse than any committed by the Allies.
No doubt a number war crimes were committed by the Allies, however my belief is that those committed by Germany/Japan were far worse than those of the (Western) allies. I do take issue with your claim that Hiroshima/Nagasaki be counted as a war crime.
Bit of a bugbear for me, as having spent time in Japan I like the people but find it disturbing they emphasise the horror of atomic bombic but make no mention (in schools or generally) of the history behind the bombing.
October 22nd, 2009 at 8:17 pm
John Minto, reason number 1 as to why not to buy a Fairfax newspaper.
October 22nd, 2009 at 8:19 pm
I guess snowy I should have said that the atomic bombs could ‘arguably’ or ‘possibly’ be considered a war crime (or at least could raise the spectre of one, or be debated whether they are one, correct or not). I kind of clumsily made my point – it shouldn’t have read as an assertion that the nukes were a war crime, more that I think the other side (if they’d won) would have treated them as such, right or wrong.
The second atomic bomb is probably the thing that really raises the question mark, and causes the debate (was it really necessary to ram home the point – might Japan have surrendered without it?)…
It’s a good point you make about the people in Japan glossing over the misdeeds on their side in their own history – and I guess that follows on from what I was brainstorming out loud – the whole ‘history is written by the victors’ thing (or written by those in charge of the education system of a particular country).
For instance, I really like America and Americans, but sometimes find it frustrating that some of my US friends won’t ever acknowledge that the US can make (or in history may have made) a debateable decision/action – not even necessarily an out-and-out bad one, just they won’t even consider any questioning of the fact they are the “good guys” who never do anything wrong or questionable. That black/white attitude bothers me sometimes. Especially having travelled through South and Central America for 6mths, and seen some of the effects of perhaps well-intentioned but not necessarily particularly well-executed US foreign policy.
Some NZers are a bit like that with our own history too. I imagine every country’s history has some dark corners (that many people in that country overlook)- though as you correctly point out, some far far far more than others. As an aside, it must have been tough for people growing up in Germany the past few decades – having your country hated by so many people around the world based on something that happened before you were born.
October 22nd, 2009 at 9:32 pm
Luc H>This proposed resolution was subsequently withdrawn
So the UN never “voted NO on going into Iraq” as menace had claimed. Thanks for the reference.
Kofi Annan didn’t get to decide points of international law. It wasn’t in his job description, thank goodness since he should have been locked away a coupe of times. Once for ordering UN peacekeeping staff to do nothing to protect Rwandans as they were being massacred. And again for allowing his son and his chief of staff to benefit from Iraqi oil sanction fraud. Genocide and fraud that caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people isn’t a good look for any CV. Apart from a job at the UN.
As for the US and coalition invasion of Iraq… Iraq was shooting at US aircraft enforcing no fly zones on a regular basis. Iraq was financing Palestinian terror organisations targeting, amongst others, US citizens. It’s a fundamental principle of international law that countries are entitled to defend themselves, and the UN can’t take away this right. Therefore, the US was only exercising its rights under international law and no war crime was committed by the fact of the invasion. (Altho, obviously, individuals may have committed war crimes during the invasion… either on the side of the attack or the defence.)
On the other hand, Helen Clark opted for NZ to join the Iraq occupation force. I don’t think this can be justified by self defence. Therefore you could make a case that Helen Clark is a war criminal. I think it would be a weak case, but I’d be happy to see it tested in court. Would you opt for jurisdiction of the Hague, or Wellington?
October 22nd, 2009 at 9:39 pm
kiwicraig>The second atomic bomb is probably the thing that really raises the question mark, and causes the debate (was it really necessary to ram home the point – might Japan have surrendered without it?)
They had the opportunity to surrender after Hiroshima. They chose not to. At the time Japan was still occupying several countries, including Singapore where they committed a large number of war crimes against the local Chinese population. Would it be moral to let innocent Singaporeans suffer any longer while you waited for Japan to make up its mind to surrender? I don’t think so.
October 22nd, 2009 at 9:45 pm
“no war crime was committed by the fact of the invasion”
Heard of Abu Ghraib?
Nah, couldn’t be true, could it, David.
We’re the good guys.
October 22nd, 2009 at 9:53 pm
hmmm… that’s a good point davidp, and I’m going to have to tread cautiously here because I’m not sure exactly how I feel about the atomic bombings – I think in general I’ve accepted them as a necessary, if perhaps excessive, act during war. It’s something I feel can be discussed, rather than something I have a strident ‘line in the sand’ viewpoint on…
But playing devil’s advocate (not saying this is my opinion, just raising a question) – would you think it’s moral to kill 70,000 innocent civilians, injure and maim another 70,000, and horribly affect several hundred thousand others (including future generations) with diseases and disfigurements caused by radiation?
October 22nd, 2009 at 9:55 pm
Reid, I think davidp’s point was that the actual invasion of Iraq itself wasn’t a war crime, even if there were individual acts committed during that invasion that may arguably for some be considered war crimes…
so the mere act of invading Iraq wasn’t a war crime in of itself…
October 22nd, 2009 at 9:55 pm
# bill hicks (62) Vote: Add rating 2 Subtract rating 2 Says:
October 22nd, 2009 at 8:01 pm
I have never agreed with anything john minto has ever,ever ever said until today.
Bill, nice to know you still support apartheid. Don’t worry, on this site, you are not alone. There is huge support for the apartheid Israel practices in the OPT.
October 22nd, 2009 at 9:57 pm
More casualties firebombing of Tokyo in one night than either of the big bombs.
October 22nd, 2009 at 10:10 pm
kiwicraig “so the mere act of invading Iraq wasn’t a war crime in of itself…”
Does that apply to Iraq’s invasion of Kuwait as well? Just wondering.
October 22nd, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Jeez davidp
What sort of fantasy land do you live in? The invasion was all about WMDs, remember?
Unproven allegations against Annan do not detract from his statement as UN head that the UN did not authorise that war.
As for Iraq shooting, with not one success, at US planes, the no-fly zone imposed after the First Gulf War is a form of occupation, surely, to which resistance, although not including war crimes, is legal.
But, semantically, you are correct in saying there was not a no vote, although there would have been had the resolution not been withdrawn. If this perverse state of denial pleases you, so be it.
October 22nd, 2009 at 10:25 pm
the no-fly zone imposed after the First Gulf War is a form of occupation, surely, to which resistance, although not including war crimes, is legal.
Hahaha oh wow. Course, we always knew you were a loony moonbat, so that kind of attitude towards at least one part of the Iraq containment measures which had wider support was expected.
Occupy, occupy, milk dry. Fuck guilt.
October 22nd, 2009 at 10:59 pm
Occupy, occupy, milk dry. Fuck guilt.
Love your honesty Hurf. You come up with some great lines. How many lines do you do to get that creative?
October 22nd, 2009 at 11:01 pm
Chris Carter wrote a post on Red Alert today saying:
“Just saw the most awful sight.
“John Key was posing outside on the 9th Floor Beehive balcony for a photo op.
“He looked just like Mussolini at the Piazzo Navona. I couldn’t resist leaning out my window and calling out to John that he resembled Mussolini.
“He responded “IT WORKED!”
“Says it all, really.”
* * *
Trevor Mallard or someone must have seen the post, complete with a picture of Mussolini. They withdrew it and probably put the cork back on the Chardonnay bottle.
October 22nd, 2009 at 11:04 pm
Luc H>What sort of fantasy land do you live in? The invasion was all about WMDs, remember?
The invasion was about a variety of things… http://www.c-span.org/resources/pdf/hjres114.pdf lists several pages of them. It took me about 30 seconds to find this authoritative source online… there really isn’t any excuse for you missing every aspect of the decision to invade except one.
The evidence for Annan being a party to genocide and a multi-billion dollar multi-hundred-thousand-person-death fraud is overwhelming. But it doesn’t matter, because it wasn’t his job to issue bizarre “rulings” on facts of international law. Neither Annan or the UN can restrict the right to self defence.
As for the no fly zones… No, shooting at US aircraft enforcing them wasn’t legitimate resistance. Iraq agreed to certain conditions in order to end the Gulf War without surrender or occupation. That included weapons inspections, sanctions, and no fly zones. Iraq spent the next 12 years stopping weapons inspectors from doing their jobs, busting sanctions (and paying enormous bribes to various Annan hangers-on to do it), and shooting at aircraft. It isn’t the fault of the US if Saddam and the Iraq government pursued a half witted strategy that caused them to be invaded.
But regardless of the US’s rights to invade under international law… there is a moral dimension to the invasion. Saddam was a shit who murdered millions of people and brought misery to about 99% of the population of his own country, as well as the populations of the neighbouring countries he attacked and invaded. Now he is dead. Iraq is a democracy, if an imperfect one. Its violent death rate per capita is lower than South Africa’s, and a tiny fraction of Rio de Janiero’s. Around 500,000 Iraqis are alive today who wouldn’t have been if Iraq hadn’t been invaded. Opinion polls show that support for the invasion is almost unanimous among Kurds, a clear majority among Shiites, and a minority only among Sunnis. If it came down to a choice between an interpretation of international law that was in favour of a psychopath that murdered millions of people and looted his country, and the right of his people to be free of death and torture, then I’ll go with the ordinary people.
October 22nd, 2009 at 11:41 pm
I’m up all night thinking them up, Luc.
October 22nd, 2009 at 11:48 pm
*sigh* There was actually a sound point in there, that he compulsively had to smother in a load of creamy moronic sauce. As I’ve said elsewhere, I rather doubt Minto would be exhorting us all to “lighten up” if a gang of white, privileged South African schoolboys posted pictures to Facebook of themselves flipping Nazi salutes during a field trip to the museum at Robben Island — the prison where Nelson Mandela, and other opponents of the apartheid museum, were imprisoned.
I certainly wouldn’t expect Mandela, or anyone else who saw that regime at its ugliest, to shrug it off.
October 22nd, 2009 at 11:49 pm
Sorry mate, I watched Colin Powell in his desperate speech to the UN. Your other reasons weren’t mentioned until AFTER the invasion. Oh, sorry, I forget the “he gassed his own people,” which is true, but it was with “our” gas. Do you remember the “mobile weapons labs (trains)” and the very poorly faked “intercepts”?
Although Saddam was truly bad, you exaggerate his death toll many times over, but you are in cuckoo land about Iraqis alive today thanks to the invasion.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html
And this report is way out of date by now. The main point, by 2006, 650,000 extra deaths in Iraq, and a mortality rate four times higher, than pre-invasion.
Here is the 2001 Amnesty Int report on Iraq. http://www.atour.com/news/international/20010710l.html You will note that Iraq rejected the inspections resolution at that time. Many UN resolutions are rejected by the target country but we don’t go to war with them – just look at Israel’s record.
And if Saddam was so effective in obstructing the inspections teams, how come Hans Blix correctly foretold there were no WMDs or WMD programmes in Iraq BEFORE the invasion.
I was taking the piss on the resistance angle, for a laugh, and copying your semantic resistance to the fact that the UN didn’t actually say No (the sort of argument we see all the time in rape cases -”I had to sort of prise her legs apart, your honour, but she never said no.”
It seems spurious statistics are your stock-in-trade.
War is always a humanitarian catastrophe.
October 22nd, 2009 at 11:50 pm
“Around 500,000 Iraqis are alive today who wouldn’t have been if Iraq hadn’t been invaded.”
How many Iraqis are now dead who wouldn’t have been if the US hadn’t, david? How many Iraqis think life is better now than under the US. Remember, even under Saddam, at least they had stability and basic utilities, FFS.
“The invasion was about a variety of things…”
Yeh but mostly it was about made up shit by the neocons because they really really wanted an excuse. Bush was ultimately responsible and was an idiot because either (a) he didn’t see through their evil at the time which was in fact transparent or (b) he actually agreed with them because he believed their lies via the PNAC.
david, if you have any doubt whatsoever that Iraq was nothing else than a setup from start to finish, then would love to debate it on the general threads over the weekend. This is not the thread nor the time.
I’ll be there.
October 22nd, 2009 at 11:58 pm
Is the David Farrar who wrote this post in any way related to the David Farrar who compared Helen Clark to Stalin (Helengrad) or who put up a poster making up fake quoted praising her from Mugabe?
Can’t be, who would be such a hypocrite?
October 23rd, 2009 at 12:00 am
What time is it in Ulan Bator, Chronic?
October 23rd, 2009 at 12:06 am
Oh dear, I thought we had finally got rid of Chronic
October 23rd, 2009 at 11:05 am
What really makes me sick to my stomach about Minto, is that hes a hypocrite. He is not about peace and Justice for all, but about his political ideology. When those two Israeli woman were refused coffee because of where they are from , I emailed him asking would he be planning a protest outside the coffee shop. He replied with “I couldn’t care less about two Israeli’s who cant get a cup of Coffee.
I guess according to him, Apartheid is okay as long as its against the Jews.
The comparison he made of Bush and a certain German leader is sick, its just another cheap shot at America.
The far left people like Minto have never been about Equal Justice for all, they just use it as a disguise for their own political beliefs.
October 23rd, 2009 at 1:47 pm
800 000 to 1 million people were murdered in the Rwandan genocide… the world did nothing. I suspect that had the US intervened and 100 000 casualties were recorded, Minto would still be calling the americans tyrants.
Never forget that Suddam invated Kuwait, murdered entire villages of Kurds using chemical weapons, fired cruise missiles to Israel. How many times did we hear that UN weapons inspectors had been booted out of Iraq, a country with a regime who had proved that they were more than willing to develop and use WMD’s, how many warnings from the UN had Suddam ignored. He was even given a warning prior to the invasion that Iraq would be invaded if they didn’t allow weapons inspectors. The biggest crime was that Suddams regime wasn’t crushed after the gulf war.
In hind sight, the world is probably a better place now that Suddam was crushed, it was a shame that the US lied to justify the invasion as they already had enough reason to do so. The US also made a mistake in trying to install a democratic government… really, does anyone see a democracy working in a country fulled with people with such descriminating and restrictive religious beliefs.
October 23rd, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Compared to the current Marxist nitwit & lewd hillbilly before him GW did a pretty reasonable job. Considering the fact the left hatred of him for being a Christian & (faux) conservative was near maniacal compared to any other President, with the possible exception of Nixon & Reagan, he took it all with good grace. Despite the boogie-eyed pronouncements that America would become a police state under him (looking far more likely under the incumbent), Bush probably finished his term (albeit under the dark cloud of Democrat induced depression) with a bit of credit overall. Not great but better then those either side of him by a long shot!
Abu Ghraib was an overblown beatup, the “torture” claims too.
Guantanamo was & always has been a necessary facility.
The wars, necessary too (if badly run in the aftermath).
Like Hitler or Amin? Fuck, that’s just leftists packing a sad that they couldn’t have another skirt chasing dribbler like slick Willie to worship & model themselves after. LOL
October 23rd, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Charlie, here is a quote from this article: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KJ01Ak03.html
“The last time Washington engaged in deep sanctions was from 1991-2003, when it was been verified that over a million Iraqis, including a huge number of children, died from various deprivations from hunger to unclean drinking water.”
Sanctions always hit the people on the street, disproportionately of course, on the poor.
And as you can see, the sanctions imposed on Iraq already exacted a huge toll even before the invasion.
I remember an Amnesty or HRW report that Saddam caused about 350,000 politically motivated killings in his reign of terror, but that it had dwindled to the low hundreds per year by the time of the war. Still horrific, but nothing like sanctions and the war caused.
The end did not justify the means, and only a racist or an imperialist could say it does. Which are you? Both?