Herald says its both
Claire Trevett at the NZ Herald has what looks to be a scoop:
Wanganui is to be given its “h” back in a compromise under which Government agencies will have to follow the new spelling but others will have a choice.
Land Information minister Maurice Williamson will visit Wanganui today to announce his decision on whether it will become Whanganui.
This follows a sometimes-acrimonious public debate on the issue and a Geographic Board recommendation to insert the “h”.
The Herald understands his solution will be similar to the compromises that created Aorangi/Mt Cook and Mt Egmont/Mt Taranaki, making Wanganui and Whanganui official names.
Sounds fairly sensible. I have previously blogged that a recommendation of the Geographic Board should only be declined by the Minister if there is some failure on their part to consult properly.
Incidentally I was e-mailed this yesterday by a mate. He mentioned at the Press Gallery party that he had just been reading a 1938 history book which pointed out the name Wanganui was a mis-spelling, so this issue is not some new retrospective rewriting of history. I asked him to e-mail me a scan, which he did.
Anyway we’ll find out around midday what the official decision is.
December 18th, 2009 at 7:26 am
Another slap in the face for democracy.
I wish our gutless Socialist PM would just resign and tell us what we all know, the Maori party are running the country.
December 18th, 2009 at 7:31 am
I know people’s whose last name is Neilson, that is a mispelling of a the scandinavian name Nielsen. I’m going to submit to the geographic board that this name be changed to the way it originally was. History behind the misspelling means nothing, it has to be 100% correct by the original spelling. I will get those racist, backward, f*&ktarts Ken Mair and the maori party to support me in the bid.
Seriously though, the maori language is dead. If a language can not evolve due to misspelling and mispronounciation then that is an indicator that the language is no long used for anything other than historical contexts.
December 18th, 2009 at 8:04 am
But how can you be so sure that Edward Gibbon is the Colonel’s brother and not half brother? It makes a difference with the son or nephew’s favouring the ‘h’ or not. Might as well spell the Maori Party ‘National’. No one would notice the difference!
December 18th, 2009 at 8:07 am
I don’t really care one way or the other, though this seems more suitable for decision by majority vote of the people who live there than many other things we decide that way.
But surely it’s just wrong to say there is no such Maori word as Wanganui, therefore it is a misspelling. Maori did not have a written language and neither ‘Wanganui’ nor’ Whanganui’ corresponds exactly to the way Maori in the region typically pronounce it. The actual pronunciation is somewhere in between and there is no way to capture it perfectly using the sounds we normally associate with ‘w’ or ‘wh’.
December 18th, 2009 at 8:15 am
You also have to love the timing of this announcement, the gutless wankers have released this just in time for it to coincide with the mad Xmas rush season.
Let’s make 2010 the year that we force this little wanker to listen to us, lets make 2010 the year the we fight back.
December 18th, 2009 at 8:20 am
when will our Maori partners acknowledge the the ABC’s are English. Who in gods name in the mid 1800′s said Wanganui should be spelt with an H ???????????????????? how did they come to that conclusion.
FFS .. I will drive down to Wanganui earlier than I was going to, to join the protest in the city on Saturday lunchtime.
December 18th, 2009 at 8:22 am
No wonder the Maori party loves Key, his liaison staff are Mr Ben Dover and a Mr Takeit.
December 18th, 2009 at 8:28 am
More dithering from the perennial indecisive Neville Key. Unable to make up his mind the spineless PM instructed Williamson to accept both names.
I have to call Key for what he is: a docile puppet of the Maori Party.
December 18th, 2009 at 8:30 am
Seems sensible to make both official names and let the people of W(h)anganui choose for themselves which they use.
I don’t think it will precipitate the end of the universe. And it provides a useful service, it gives the moaners something harmless to go on about, again.
Win (those who want to use Wanganui), win (those who want to use Whanganui), win (those who want to winge/whinge).
December 18th, 2009 at 8:31 am
They already chose. They said no.
December 18th, 2009 at 8:33 am
If Williamson manages to upset both the red-necks and the brown-necks by making a pragmatic decision, you’d have to argue that he’s got the balance just about right.
In the meantime, most of those of us who reside in W(h)anganui will go about our daily business without a care in the world whilst the extremists on both sides of the debate untwist their knickers
December 18th, 2009 at 8:53 am
I dont know too much about wanganui and whanganui, but Ive never seen any sensible answer to the question “How can a language which was never written down, be miss-spelt.?”
‘Wh’ in english is not an ‘f’ sound – so why do lots of people think it is an ‘F’ when written to be a maori word. Its not an ‘F’ in where or when or why etc. I would have thought they would have given such words a Ph or an F.
Beats me.
December 18th, 2009 at 9:25 am
What Barry and Nigel said.
How can an oral language have a mis-spelling when the phonetic rules are unclear ( and even have regional dialects)?
but then …. who gives a f**k, we have much more important things to worry about, obviously Michael Laws doesn’t!!!!!
December 18th, 2009 at 9:39 am
david said”but then …. who gives a f**k, we have much more important things to worry about, obviously Michael Laws doesn’t!!!!! ”
Indeed david – L(h)aws has a talkback audience breathlessly awaiting his latest proclamation of doom, after which, of course, the phone lines will run hot. I suspect that a few commenters here will be calling in
December 18th, 2009 at 9:54 am
You comment ..”I have previously blogged that a recommendation of the Geographic Board should only be declined by the Minister if there is some failure on their part to consult properly.”
The first time a minister used his prerogative was Hon Peter Tapsell who changed the Board’s recommendation of Madak Island to Whanau Island. There had been adequate consultation.
December 18th, 2009 at 10:03 am
If ever there was a news story which perfectly illustrates how myopic and navel gazing New Zealanders and particularly maori activists can be, then this has to be it. Honestly what difference will it make?
Anyhow Wanganui sounds cool, whereas Whanganui pronounced Fonganui sounds stupid.
December 18th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Jman – if one uses the dialect spoken by the Whanganui iwi, the “H” is silent, so it’s still pronounced “Wanganui”
December 18th, 2009 at 10:30 am
So whats the damn point?
December 18th, 2009 at 10:33 am
And London should revert to its correct original spelling Londinium? Spelling of place names in different languages is always a bag of nails. In English Roma is Rome, Munchen is Munich, etc. We happily accept these attempted phonetic translations.
In NZ we have three official languages (including signing). Why not let people choose which way to spell W/Whanganui? It wouldn’t cost a fortune to put a second line on road signs etc. When Wanganui conducts its business in English it would be Wanganui, and when in Maori it would be Whanganui. On the road signs, however, it would be impractical to put any distinct Maori distance measurement, if there was or are any?
In the meantime, the Geographic Place Names Board needs a clean out. Compared with the NZ population proportion it is overstacked with Maori, and as usual contains Klark PC appointees. Make the board bigger. Make it public. Instruct it to make place name changes sparingly, and tell it whether there should be two names for each. It isn’t elected so get it under our elected MPs’ thumbs.
IMHO, in official documents there should not be PC crap about having to spell a place name in two languages, that is to repeat it. If the document is in English use the English spelling. If it is in Maori use Maori place names. If in English and a Maori translation is provided, use the Maori place name in the translation.
Similarly with Radio NZ’s Radio Labour. It has Maori language programs. Let these be in Maori, of course. In English language programs, let them be fully in English. Leave the token Maori out of the English language section of broadcasts.
We should acknowledge that having English, the current world lingua franca, as our dominant language is a huge asset — in trade, in culture, in education, in travel. Saving Maori is probably worth while, but as a cultural goal.
In the meantime the PM should stay John Key, but in Maori translations of his announcements etc he could be Hone Key, or Bro. Hone Key if he wanted to be informal. Hoani, an alternative Maori version of John, seems less fitting.
December 18th, 2009 at 10:36 am
Whuck, let the people decide
December 18th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Its spelt wrong.
Deal with it.
December 18th, 2009 at 10:46 am
Heh, was the NZRU in charge of this decision as well?
December 18th, 2009 at 10:50 am
Jeff83 at 10.42:
Whether it’s spelled wrong is the whole point. If the Geographic Place Names Board wants to over-rule majority usage, does that mean it’s right?
If some historic spelling in English was the sole criterion, the board might try to change “Christchurch” to “Christ Church” (two words).
To which a good southern answer would be: let these unelected fuckers and Bro. Hone Key’s team just bloody try.
December 18th, 2009 at 11:37 am
Simply disgusting that we should have to spell these Maori placenames correctly.
Anyone would think they were expecting us to take their history seriously. The cheek of these darkies…
December 18th, 2009 at 11:57 am
Tell you what we’ll take these newcomers history as seriously as they take ours which is several thousand years older and invloves a lot less stone age aspect.
December 18th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
From the Herald:
“Land Information Minister Maurice Williamson today announced the official geographic name for the city of Wanganui could be either ‘Whanganui’ or ‘Wanganui’.
“My intention to assign alternative names for the city allows people to choose the name they prefer,” he said.
The compromise will avoid getting the Maori Party offside, while leaving opponents with the option of continuing with the h-less spelling.
Mr Williamson said local iwi wanted recognition and respect for their history and language.
“It was equally clear that the majority of the city’s residents did not want change forced on them,” he said.
“On balance I believe that alternative naming respectfully acknowledges the correct spelling of the Maori word Whanganui.
“It also respects the views of those who have always known the city’s name to be spelt Wanganui.”"
Hard to fault his logic …
December 18th, 2009 at 12:37 pm
The only thing I care about is watching Michael Laws look like Pita Sharples and John Key have pinned him down, raped him and forced him to eat worms.
Roll on evening news.
December 18th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
“The compromise will avoid getting the Maori Party offside”
And this is the very reason for the National parties being, do not worry that Maori are bludgeing from the tax payer in record numbers, do not worry that Maori kids are being killed in record number and do not worry that the Maori party harbour an openly racist MP, just keep them happy.
I FUCKING HATE THIS GOVERNMENT
December 18th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
Otago next? It’s not even close to Otakau or whatever.
December 18th, 2009 at 12:58 pm
RRM at 11.37 posted:
RRM once again jumps to the assumption that the spelling is the correct one in English, and we are talking about English.
RRM’s sneering use of the word "darkies" is a snide way of accusing those who oppose the "Wh" change to be racists.
Perhaps the racism rather lies in the increasing move towards racial separation under the regime of Key and his Maori activist allies.
Re Inventory2's 12.14 post saying it is hard to fault Maurice Williamson's logic in today's announcement…
Williamson said this:
But the debate is about a town name in English, not in Maori. What is the correct spelling in Maori is not necessarily the correct spelling in English.
December 18th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
Re my 12.58…
Sorry for the formatting. When I corrected it my edit was rejected as spam.
Has the Geographic Place Names board (the poari at the centre of this row) hacked into Kiwiblog?
December 18th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
How exactly is this a compromise? government agencies have to use the ‘h’.
December 18th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Inventory2 at 12.14 posted it’s hard to fault Minister Williamson’s logic.
Yet Williamson said this:
He thus accepts the Geographic Place Names board, a politically appointed group answerable only to him, as the final authority on the English-language spelling of a Maori place name.
If that’s Williamson’s logic there is certainly room to challenge it.
Clearly, what’s needed are two boards: ones for place names as spelled in the Maori language, and another for place names as spelled in the English language.
December 18th, 2009 at 1:49 pm
big bruv said “I FUCKING HATE THIS GOVERNMENT ”
You do? Wow, I never saw that one coming
December 18th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
he’s got a point IV2 – a flag on the bridge here, and changing the of the spelling over there. whilst they are all little concessions they are all giving in to a small minority groups demands. They are all things that will never be undone and stepping further away from all NZ’rs treated the same way. If this is all part of a cunning plan It’s not for the good on NZ.
I feel absolutely betrayed
December 18th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
So the people of Wanganui have been slapped in the face by the government, despite their wishes the gutless socialist government have told them that as far as they are concerned their town is now called Whanganui.
I wonder what the apartheid party are now going to set their sights on?
December 18th, 2009 at 2:52 pm
Bullshit big bruv – if you want to call it Wanganui you can; if you want to call it W(h)anganui you can. The only thing that upsets me is that Laws is happy!!
December 18th, 2009 at 3:05 pm
Firstly your statement make little to no sense.
“newcomers ” defined means “somebody who or something that has recently arrived, appeared, or been introduced”, being that Maori have been here 700 years, and we 150 years your statement reads literally we will take our history seriously when we take our history seriously.
Interpreting your statement (i.e. putting on my red neck hat) I imagine you meant the “newcomers” in terms of their history. Whilst this doesn’t really make any sense, will accept it for the sake of debate. Maori history goes back through Polynesian routes and has much traditions. The fact that they were less advanced does not infer some automatic superiority. Technology is often linked to needs.
Yes our ancestry is rich in heritage, but I wouldn’t say our actions are necessary great in purpose for allot of it. Raping and pillaging the Middle East in the “name of religion” the 30 years and 100 years war over Catholicism vs. Protestantism is almost a point of humour had not so many died fighting its stupid purposes. And this justifying the misspelling of a name is ridiculous.
The fact Maori was not a written language until the Missionaries arrived is irrelevant, as the language existed alongside its oral rules. Those rules were subsequently included into the written language.
December 18th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Well said ‘Big Bruv’; the ‘normal’ people in Wanganui voted National not realising that when it comes to the crunch they do not count – only the Maoris matter in New Zealand today.
As I have said before the Maori party could demand a law requiring white people to engage in beastiality and National would pass it without a second thought or hesitation (whilst sitting up straight and folding their arms)
http://www.nightcitytrader.blogspot.com
December 18th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
Elijah – Whenever John Key does something completely undemocratic like this he thinks to himself “Haha NZ, We’re not labour so who the f%^k else are you going to vote for?”.
A better compromise for this issue would have been to make all official spelling Wanganui with the option to change to Whanganui for businesses. John Key is truelly a so called “liberal” who truelly believes in big government.
December 18th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
QUOTE: “The Herald understands his solution will be similar to the compromises that created Aorangi/Mt Cook and Mt Egmont/Mt Taranaki, making Wanganui and Whanganui official names.”
Wrong, wrong. It’s Aoraki/Mt Cook, not Aorangi/Mt Cook.
Typical Auckland Herald ignorance of the South Island and Ngai Tahu spelling.
The plonkers probably think that Mount Cook is somewhere in Wellington anyway.
December 18th, 2009 at 10:28 pm
T. Gudgeon, who in 1887 published The Defenders of New Zealand, and was a Lieutenant in the Wanganui Militia never referred to Wanganui with an “h”.
December 18th, 2009 at 11:04 pm
Re Jeff83″s 3.05 post:
What the hell have the Crusades and the Reformation and Counter-Reformation wars got to to with the spelling of W(h)anganui?
They are as irrelevant as the Muslim Turks’ genocide of more than a million Christian Armenians between 1890 and 1920. the Saudis’ ban on building Christian churches, and the relentless persecution of Christians in Pakistan.
Your use of the term “red neck” explains your approach, Jeff83 – liberal cringe.
December 19th, 2009 at 9:46 am
“Anyhow Wanganui sounds cool, whereas Whanganui pronounced Fonganui sounds stupid.”
The Wh is a ‘breathy’ one, it is certainly not a hard ‘F”.
You should try it! Just breathe out when you say the “W” running into the ‘a’and you will experience how to pronounce it.
To the untrained ear, a lot of sounds in spoken Maori are hard to discern if you are not a fluent speaker. eg the ng sound in nga, and the te which learners insist on prounouncing as “Tay’.
I can completely sympathise with the early recorders of the language. The young Wakefield had ears that could hear the breathy ‘H’ wheras the older Wakefield could not – this would explain the difference in the way that they recorded it. Older folk who have had their hearing checked will know that they loose the ability to hear some sounds, particularly in the mid range.
Michael Laws needs to get over it. He needs to accept the change gracefully, as do his elderly supporters. One would have more respect for him if he showed courage and conceeded.
Kia ora koutou. Kei te pai to koutou ra.
December 19th, 2009 at 9:49 am
“Michael Laws needs to get over it. ”
Michael Laws needs to get over democracy?????
Spoken like a true Pinko.
December 19th, 2009 at 9:55 am
“Michael Laws needs to get over it. He needs to accept the change gracefully, as do his elderly supporters. One would have more respect for him if he showed courage and conceeded.”
One might.
The rest would think him just another wet blanket maori apologist like Williamson and the rest of the National clowns.
December 19th, 2009 at 10:09 am
The maori need to get over themselves.
Whanganui is a maori word.
Wanganui is an English word.
English is the language of Wanganui, thus the spelling is correct.
Its a bit like the Italians say Roma, the English Rome.
December 19th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
‘English is the language of Wanganui, thus the spelling is correct’
I understand that Maori is also spoken in Whanganui.
Wanganui is not spelt correctly.
Get over yourself. You must be elderly and hearing impared.
December 19th, 2009 at 6:36 pm
Jules, I understand Greek and cantonese is also spoken in Wanganui. What’s your point?
You must be stupid and maori.