Tell us something new
The Independent reports:
Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams was accused yesterday of ordering two murders carried out by the IRA, including a notorious incident in which a mother of 10 was shot dead and secretly buried.
The accusations are contained in a book, Voices from the Grave, by veteran journalist Ed Moloney, which is to be published this week.
They are based on the posthumous testimony of a former Belfast IRA commander, Brendan Hughes.
This is no surprise. The news is the unusual testimony, but the Sinn Fein leadership have always been IRA leaders also. Adams is thought to have been IRA Chief of Staff from from December 1977 to February 1978 and Martin McGuinness for five years after that.
What has surprised me is not that Adams and McGuinness used to order people to be killed, but how sucessful they have been in self-Government – especially McGuinness who serves as deputy First Minister to Ian Paisley.
I used to have immense hatred for the IRA, and their terrorist activities were despicable. However a negotiated peace settlement was the best way forward, and arguably Blair’s greatest legacy to the UK. It is a minor miracle that Sinn Fein and Paisley are working together to improve life in Northern Ireland, and the crimes of the past should remain there.
March 30th, 2010 at 8:01 am
Anyone interested in the middle-east conflict should look at Sinn Fein to see what must be gong on within the leadership of Hamas right now.
Even the most hardened terrorists crave some sort of ‘respectability’, which is often what drives them to the negotiating table.
In Northern Ireland, there will always be sectarianism of varying degrees, but because Sinn Fein prefer to be considered statesmen now, the IRA has no political fuel to garner support on street level.
March 30th, 2010 at 8:18 am
“I used to have immense hatred for the IRA”
Why on earth would you have softened your stance on that bunch of murdering scum?
The IRA were scum, are scum and will always be scum.
[DPF: But they gave up armed conflict, and while not excusing the past, puts them higher than those who carry on armed conflict - as just seen in Russia]
March 30th, 2010 at 8:25 am
I understood the main reason the IRA gave up terror as their favorite modus operandi was post Nine Eleven, they were no longer bank-rolled by sympathisers in the US of A.
March 30th, 2010 at 8:34 am
Matt
The IRA had already entered a period of ‘cease fire’ long before 9/11.
One of the reasons that McGuinness and Adams were more keen to come to the negotiating table than in the past was more down to the fact that the IRA were losing the war, their people were losing heart and many were sick of the pointless waste of human life.
While it is good that the reign of terror is over (for now) the Brits missed a golden chance to crush the IRA.
March 30th, 2010 at 8:36 am
I understood the main reason the IRA gave up terror as their favorite modus operandi was post Nine Eleven, they were no longer bank-rolled by sympathisers in the US of A.
The Good Friday agreement was signed in April 1998.
March 30th, 2010 at 8:37 am
David, a couple of points – Ian Paisley has not been first minister since June 2008; and Martin McGuinness was IRA chief of staff for more than just five years.
March 30th, 2010 at 8:41 am
And yet BB, Noraid and its ilk are still up and running.
March 30th, 2010 at 8:46 am
File this one under ‘no shit sherlock’. I thought the reason for the 1998 agreement was the IRA gangsters getting older and desiring to “go legit” with their business, and give up the extortion and protection rackets collecting money for”the cause”, i.e. themselves…
March 30th, 2010 at 9:01 am
Okay, question people, if Adams and that other sod happened to run into bullets would anything change in Northern Ireland if the vast majority of the people on both sides are against more violence ?
Northern Ireland, hmm, thats where the wife of the first minister had an affair with a lad of nineteen, she was sixty and a good Christian
March 30th, 2010 at 9:02 am
DPF said: “…especially McGuinness who serves as deputy First Minister to Ian Paisley” and “It is a minor miracle that Sinn Fein and Paisley are working together…”
- Oh dear, and your post David spoke with such confidence….maybe it not just the newspapers you should be telling to do basic fact-checking.
[Yep I should have said served. The salient point is still the same]
March 30th, 2010 at 9:10 am
In Northern Ireland, both parties were not quite so blinded by ideology – religion wasn’t at the core of what they were doing. So when it became clear to the leadership that they’d just be fighting each other forever, they decided to do the rational thing.
The hard bit is then “de-programming” those they’d talking into fighting. What we know as the IRA is actually a splinter group who weren’t successfully talked out of violence last time.
Yes, if Hamas in the middle east can be convinced that they cannot win, and can only suffer, they might actually make real attempts at peace. This is what people like Daniel Pipes keep saying.
Sadly, that’s incredibly unlikely given the deep religious motivations behind their fight.
March 30th, 2010 at 9:14 am
The North is a weird place. I have visited Belfast many times and you walk down one road and you are in a Nationalist Area, walk down the next road and you are in a Unionist area. And there is often a large wall between the communities.
I have enjoyed visiting the North and yet it is a very different place to old NZ.
The big change in the last few years is that now both communities are running the place, previously it was a Protestant state for a Protestant people, which was the big cause of the troubles. Ignoring a minority only works for a while (which is what occurred in NZ with the Maori).
March 30th, 2010 at 9:16 am
“ignoring a minority only works for a while”
Also the problem in Sri Lanka.
March 30th, 2010 at 9:21 am
scrubone 9:10 am,
The thing with adherants to Islam is that they can NEVER admit “they cannot win”; for to do so would be to acknowledge Islam is a false religion, and Allah is a false ‘god’. This is why Israel’s presence in the Middle East is such an affront to Islam; its presence/existence basically screams ‘Islam cannot win’.
March 30th, 2010 at 9:45 am
Kris, I’m sure they have some convoluted logic to explain away discrepancies and incorrect outcomes. Much like all the other religions which revolve around an omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God, who nonetheless appears to be rather thick, not too bothered and a bit hard of hearing.
You don’t last 1400 years and get to be fastest growing religion without a few pre-prepared answers.
March 30th, 2010 at 9:45 am
@Kris K and scrubone
I would contend that whatever belief systems are at play, and however hardline Hamas appears, there will be one or two leaders who right now have learned to enjoy their status as elected officials and having their phonecalls answered.
March 30th, 2010 at 9:50 am
A man is walking the streets of Belfast, when he’s suddenly grabbed from behind and someone puts a gun against his head. “Are you a catholic or a protestant ?” At first he freaks out, because he doesn’t know if the gunman is IRA or Loyalist and he has only a 50/50 chance of getting it right. Then he has a brilliant idea, and says “I’m JEWISH !”
“Well I must be the luckiest arab in Belfast…”
March 30th, 2010 at 9:55 am
“[DPF: But they gave up armed conflict, and while not excusing the past, puts them higher than those who carry on armed conflict - as just seen in Russia]”
NO wrong. They were gutted and lost their popular support. If you think for one second that they would have negotiated if they thought they were making any progress you’re a fool.
Towards the end they were just armed thugs whose primary operation was robbery. They had the option of negotiate or die. And unless you’re delusional you’ll be aware that some elements have not only NOT disarmed but are still operational.
March 30th, 2010 at 10:02 am
Malcolm 9:45 am,
When you put it like that, Malcolm, it sounds so innocuous – almost like a ‘slip of the wrist’.
“Whoops, … I just blew up that tube station, … I just flew into that building, … I just blew up that nightclub, …”
Yeah, just a few “discrepancies and incorrect outcomes”, nothing to be concerned about folks, move along please.
March 30th, 2010 at 10:07 am
Kris, could you ever admit you canot “win”. Could you ever accept that people of other religions and non-religious people have as much right to their views and customs and way of life as you do?
Or do you follow a winner takes all strategy?
March 30th, 2010 at 10:10 am
Another good reason for the death penalty for terrorism.
That way politicians can’t free them when they do their deals under the table.
March 30th, 2010 at 10:27 am
DPF said: [Yep I should have said served. The salient point is still the same]
- Indeed, the fact that the two less moderate (and opposing) parties in NI politics are working together in government is quite an achievement. I agree. And this is very positive for everybody.
In another point you said: “I used to have immense hatred for the IRA, and their terrorist activities were despicable.”.
- While I don’t condone the deaths of the non-combative forces in that conflict, it would be extremely naive – stupid in fact – to assume it was only one side conducting sinister or oppressive activities. People may have a preference for which political end result they want to see (i.e. nationalist or unionist), but neither side can even come close to claiming the moral high ground in the way they have gone about their activities and methods. Violent conflicts just don’t allow that sorry, so before anyone takes pot shots at the opposing side, they would do well to understand the conflict first before passing judgement.
March 30th, 2010 at 10:40 am
@Sean
Have you seen the Steve McQueen (the director!) film Hunger? It was at the Film festival last year, so should be on DVD by now.
I thoroughly recommend it as an exploration of the Troubles without choosing a side or ‘heroes’. And yet packs a mighty punch.
I felt I learned a lot about the era from the film – having not been born during the period covered, it made me go and look up things like ‘UDP’, which I hadn;t hearf of at the time.
March 30th, 2010 at 10:46 am
The NI issue is incredibly complex.
The absence of large scale terrorism in the 6 counties does noy mean it is at peace. Far from it. Republican terrorists are still very active. There have been a number of murders of security personnel and attempted bombings in recent months.
Many PIRA terrorists have joined the “dissidents”. Both communities in the North are bitterly divided. Politics have shifted from the moderate camps to the extremes.
The once great Royal Ulster Constabulary is a shadow of its fomer self ,now called the Police Service of Northern Ireland.
The terrorists are waiting in the wings, this is Tony Blair’s legacy.
March 30th, 2010 at 10:48 am
@ ephemera
- No, hadn’t heard of it sorry. I see from IMDB that it is about the last 6 weeks of Bobby Sands’ life. Seems to have picked up a fair few awards. Will keep an eye out for it.
March 30th, 2010 at 11:08 am
I lived in Belfast until 1986, was 11 in 1969 when that round of “troubles” started. There was much disgusting and horrific behaviour on both sides. Some of it in the name of the respective ideology, some of it carried out by thugs and gangsters who used the “troubles” as a cover to behave as they would have anyway. Robbing, intimidating, bullying. Many of the remnants of these groups still operate in Belfast (on both sides) but have reverted to type. Common drug dealers and thugs.
I always suspected Adams would become involved in the politics, I believe he was one who was genuinely driven by ideology. He was lucky the protestant paras weren’t as efficient as the IRA paras.
March 30th, 2010 at 11:33 am
Kris, I was responding to your observation that if Muslims would admit that Israel was a fixture and can not be beaten, then their whole faith would collapse due to some logical contradiction. I was just pointing out that most religions have this problem but they’ve inured themselves by convoluted logic.
March 30th, 2010 at 12:10 pm
“Some of it in the name of the respective ideology, some of it carried out by thugs and gangsters who used the “troubles” as a cover to behave as they would have anyway. Robbing, intimidating, bullying.”
I would say that militant Islam is much the same – my observation is that many of the terrorists are simply people who’ve found an outlet for their hatred.
The big difference is that Islamic leader love death while the leaders in NI realised that their path would only lead to death, and decided that was not something they wanted. Like the russian/us cold war, when push came to shove they chose life over winning the fight.
Who knows, maybe the leaders of Hamas might realise they’re not going to win and give up. But in order for them to realise that, they need to lose support on all fronts – including the western left. I don’t see that happening any time soon.
Israel don’t actually have the option of losing and still chosing life.
March 30th, 2010 at 1:03 pm
Pete George 10:07 am,
The thing is, Pete, Christianity doesn’t have to prove it’s right by its adherents committing acts of terrorism, and by it’s spiritual leaders (and the Koran) calling for the destruction of Israel and every last Jew on the planet.
And I don’t even have to prove anything to naysayers like you. I will try and share the truth of God’s word with you, and I will try to show you its veracity, but I fear that the ‘proof’ you desire will only become evident when you stand before your Maker at the judgement. But at that point it will be too late to change your eternal destiny – better to choose now, Pete.
And as an after thought:
It is a “winner takes all strategy” – my God wins; actually He won when He died on the cross and rose from the dead – the enemy are just a bit slow in making a full and unconditional surrender. Best pick sides now, Pete!
March 30th, 2010 at 1:15 pm
Malcolm 11:33 am,
Do you have an example of where Christianity, in particular, is called into question because of the existence of a particular people group and/or nation? Convoluted logic, or otherwise? (Or anything in a similar vain).
March 30th, 2010 at 1:17 pm
I certainly won’t pick that sort of spiritual arrogance.
I think you are as bad as Muslim religious extremists – and the only difference between you and violent Muslim extremists seems to be that you hope someone or something else (an agent of your god) does all the killing.
The Troubles used the religious divide until people realised there could be no “winner takes all”. There are no real winners in that sort of game. Compromise is necessary for co-existence.
March 30th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
DPF, I’m not sure about your comment “the crimes of the past should remain there”. Are you aware of Bloody Sunday? (there’s a very good film on the subject directed by Paul Greengrass). There have been successive inquiries into the events and yet not a single member of the British occupying forces has ever been charged in a British court. Those who lost family members (some as young as 17), killed as occupying troops shot over a hundred rounds indiscriminately into crowds, are awaiting the outcome of yet another report, fequently delayed but apparently due shortly. I don’t they they would agree that things should just be dropped.
Tiocfaidh ár lá.
March 30th, 2010 at 2:31 pm
British forces do not “occupy” sovereign British territory,they belong there.
March 30th, 2010 at 3:21 pm
Pete George 1:17 pm,
Whatever you say, Mr Chamberlain.
Excuse me, I hear Mr Churchill calling …
March 30th, 2010 at 3:41 pm
Ok Kris, why don’t you start wars and kill everyone who doesn’t comply with your beliefs and see what happens. Oh, I nearly forgot, that’s what you want, an apocalypse to send everyone you disagree with to everlasting hell. Just like Christ taught, I’m sure. Where is Murray’s font?
March 30th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
Pete George 3:41 pm,
Actually, Petey, the apocalypse (Armageddon) is pretty much the final wakeup call to a Christ rejecting world. But I sense, if you’re still around for the grand finale, that even this won’t get your attention. And I will shed a tear for you not making the right choice, should that be the case. But at least it will be tempered with the fact that I did everything in my power to convince you of God’s provision for your sin.
If you want to continue this I suggest we move to GD – where moving into the realm of being off topic.
March 30th, 2010 at 4:08 pm
You convince me of the opposite. It’s sort of appropriate for a thread on the Troubles, intractable beliefs keep causing grief.