What a good idea

August 12th, 2010 at 4:37 pm by David Farrar

Readers may have seen some stories on the controversy in New York, after planning permission was given for a mosque to be built near Ground Zero in Manhattan.

I tend to think the choice of location is insensitive and stupid, but that is no reason to deny planning permission. Like , I like this proposed response:

Fox News’ Mr Gutfeld proposes building a gay bar right next to the Cordoba Initiative complex in downtown Manhattan. Fantastic idea. That’s exactly the right response to an expression of religious freedom: the expression of freedom for gay people as well.

A stroke of genius. A gay bar next to the mosque. The very arguments in favour of the right for the mosque to be in an location that will offend some, have to be also deployed in favour of allowing a gay bar next door – even though that will offend many at the mosque.

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63 Responses to “What a good idea”

  1. gazzaj (98 comments) says:

    …and a Hooters across the street and a hot dog stand just outside. Awesome.

    Why is the choice of location “insensitive and stupid” though?

    [DPF- quoting “If the Japanese decided to open a cultural centre across from Pearl Harbour, that would be insensitive. If the Germans opened a Bach choral society across from Auschwitz, even after all these years, that would be an insensitive setting. I have absolutely nothing against Islam. I just think: Why there?””

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  2. dimmocrazy (286 comments) says:

    There are many more good suggestions out there, such as a synagogue next door, street vendors selling bacon sandwiches around the clock, a strip bar opposite, public toilets with old Korans for toilet paper, a shooting arcade with “shoot the mohammed” styled games etc. etc.

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  3. Pete George (23,830 comments) says:

    Why not test everyone’s tolerance and add an abortion clinic to the mix. And a gas chamber themed bath house.

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  4. Jeremy Harris (319 comments) says:

    They should build a Church, Mosque and Gay Bar in the Freedom Tower itself…

    That’s Freedom baby..!

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  5. dimmocrazy (286 comments) says:

    “Why not test everyone’s tolerance”

    Good point, how about a library for forbidden literature, a conspiracy theory centre, a satanic and pagan religious centre, a KKK branch etc.

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  6. RRM (10,099 comments) says:

    It’s only insensitive and stupid if you accept the premise that all (Or even most) Muslims are terrorists.

    Mind you the debate is being had by Americans, so hardly surprising histrionics have taken over.

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  7. dimmocrazy (286 comments) says:

    “It’s only insensitive and stupid if you accept the premise that all (Or even most) Muslims are terrorists.”

    Why?

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  8. unaha-closp (1,067 comments) says:

    According to the internets the bar is going to be called “Ram-a-Dan”.

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  9. andrei (2,653 comments) says:

    This Mosque will never be built – it was never intended to be built.

    100 million 13 story mosque in Manhattan – get real.

    The whole thing is a bluff – intended to get a rise and to “show” how intolerant Americans are.

    By the city giving permission the bluff has been called – watch it come to nothing.

    What does need to be rebuilt is this Church which was destroyed on 911 by you know who.

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  10. RRM (10,099 comments) says:

    If Muslims are all terrorists, then building a centre of their faith near the scene of their greatest crime on U.S. soil would be extremely rude, a direct slap on the face of anyone connected with 9/11 and basically an expression of anti-American hatred.

    If Muslims are not all terrorists, then the people who use that mosque are presumably U.S. citizens with the same right to observe their religion as anyone else. And heaven forbid, a few other New Yorkers might through rubbing shoulders with them actually learn a thing or two about the non-christian, non-western world.

    No-one is suggesting New Yorkers will be forced to stop work 5 times a day and bow down to it FFS.

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  11. Guy Fawkes (702 comments) says:

    I’ve never been to a Gay Bar before. No need at all. Not my thing.

    However if the Islamic Centre is a go project and a Gay Bar gets built as a good response, then I would certainly check the premises out.

    Only for solidarity with my Muslim Gay fellow citizens of Planet Earth

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  12. kowtow (8,945 comments) says:

    All this is dealt with at jihad watch;
    http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/08/islamic-supremacist-ground-zero-mega-mosque-organizers-whine-that-gutfelds-gay-bar-doesnt-consider-t.html

    Note in this item those that demand acceptance and tolerance do not want to extend it to others,so we learn more about them before rubbing shoulders.

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  13. Magnanomis (138 comments) says:

    Gay bar – fabulous! Call it ‘Gāllah’ (Gay-lah).

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  14. tom hunter (5,134 comments) says:

    And heaven forbid, a few other New Yorkers might through rubbing shoulders with them actually learn a thing or two about the non-christian, non-western world.

    RRM’s new slogan for New York – “The last bastion of insular, white, Christian Americanism”.

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  15. tom hunter (5,134 comments) says:

    Shesh – we covered this yesterday on “A Friend Responds”.

    Guess I should have waited – but here’s the link to the name suggestions.

    My shortlist is now:

    Grind Zero

    Suspicious Packages

    Sandjobs

    al Gayda

    9-11 Inches

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  16. RRM (10,099 comments) says:

    So what’s your own view Tom?

    If America is big enough to apply the principles of their constitution universally to all its citizens, is that a sign that the terrorists have won (as the authors of kowtows link suggest) or a sign that America has won?

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  17. scrubone (3,097 comments) says:

    Trouble is that many moderate muslims consider the “community center” to be wrong.
    http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/06/06/a_mosque_at_ground_zero/

    And note that it was the intention to build it as close as possible to ground zero.

    As someone has noted above, Muslims have asked for people not do do something deliberately offensive – apparently their sensitivities sour rounding gay bars come before 9/11 victims sensitivities.

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  18. Inventory2 (9,381 comments) says:

    As long as there’s somewhere nearby where you can get a good feed of pork sauages, bacon and eggs ….

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  19. Yvette (2,763 comments) says:

    Fun to anticipate such an affront to something others see as an affront to them.
    And that the controversial centre is proposed to open on September 11 next year probably is an affront – it can’t be just bad timing – however once that happens it will probably be successful in opposing any gay bar next door.
    It is the way this shit happens.
    See the rush in New Zealand to set-up separate swimming to meet Islamic needs at rate-payers expense.

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  20. PaulL (5,449 comments) says:

    Scrubone – some Muslims asked for this, other Muslims asked for that. Put the two together, looks like hypocrisy. Realise that “Muslims” aren’t a homogeneous group, and it starts to make sense. Some Muslims would like a mosque/community centre near ground zero, and are OK with a gay bar next door. Other Muslims don’t really want the mosque/community centre because it’s insensitive, and if there was one, think a gay bar next door not to be particularly sensitive either.

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  21. RKBee (1,344 comments) says:

    And here I was thinking.. we had not got passed legalised brothels in suburbia.
    Is a mosque a church and a gay bar like a brothel
    because the saying goes.. you can put a church next to a brothel… but you can’t put a brothel next to a church..

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  22. Pete George (23,830 comments) says:

    I tend to think the choice of location is insensitive

    Perhaps, it depends on the real intentions of those behind it – we may never find that out.

    Seriously, how far away would be the right degree of sensitivity? Four blocks? The other end of Manhattan? Across the river?

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  23. tom hunter (5,134 comments) says:

    No-one is suggesting New Yorkers will be forced to stop work 5 times a day and bow down to it FFS.

    Not really the point. But rather than take my word for what this is intended to mean you should read The Ottawa Citizen article Mischief in Manhattan:

    The proposal has been made in bad faith and in Islamic parlance, such an act is referred to as “Fitna,” meaning “mischief-making” that is clearly forbidden in the Koran.

    The Koran commands Muslims to, “Be considerate when you debate with the People of the Book” — i.e., Jews and Christians. Building an exclusive place of worship for Muslims at the place where Muslims killed thousands of New Yorkers is not being considerate or sensitive, it is undoubtedly an act of “fitna”

    The authors are Raheel Raza and Tarek Fatah and they’ll probably have a fatwa on their ass soon enough – assuming they don’t repent after getting the Clarence Thomas treatment from the Left.

    You could also take a look at this interview with one Raheel Raza, a member of the Muslim Canadian Congress. She’s not very impressed with the people backing the mosque and she does not think it actually will encourage dialog or understanding and is actually designed to be confrontational.

    But she also makes the same point that I made yesterday in the “burqa” discussion, and that the Western Left need to keep in mind every time they jump in to these discussions:

    ….Mayor Bloomberg and other bleeding heart white liberals like him don’t understand the battle that we moderate Muslims are faced with in terms in confronting radical Islam and Islamisation and political Islam in North America, which has only grown since 9/11 because of political correctness and people, because of their politically vested agendas, not speaking out against issues like this.

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  24. andrei (2,653 comments) says:

    Pete George
    “the intentions of those behind it is quite clear from the name not that anyone as pig ignorant as you are would pick it up.

    Cordoba House – that my friend is a deliberate reference to the capital of Andalusia the Western most extension of Islam in its glory days and also a grievance raised in excuse for the MADRID BOMBINGS.

    sheesh you’re thick!

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  25. Falafulu Fisi (2,141 comments) says:

    I would go further and suggest putting a muslim gay bar only rather than just a gay bar. I reckon that it would be more insulting to prayers at the mosque fully knowiing that the next door bar must be muslim men doing up the bums of other muslim men than if they’re non-muslims.

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  26. Pete George (23,830 comments) says:

    Sorry Andrei, I don’t know everything like you. I’ll follow Tom’s links and get a better idea of it, hadn’t bothered to look into it much. It’s difficult to get a proper perspective of things like this from initial overreactions.

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  27. krazykiwi (8,040 comments) says:

    Not sure how setting out to offend a group that offends another group is a positive way forward. Childish? Yes it is.

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  28. reid (16,718 comments) says:

    What occurs to me is that while it’s an extremely sophisticated propaganda ploy to propose a Muslim Recreation Centre (which also has Mosque) and get people like Bloomberg to support it, because they have to if they [Americans] want to walk their [free speech] talk; it’s an extremely childish naive ploy to propose something like a gay bar next to it.

    I would have thought there were many more subtle, permanent options to make the point the gay bar’s making.

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  29. garethw (205 comments) says:

    Or perhaps we could all just give up on using people with a different sexuality to your own as some kind of political joke to have a go at another group we don’t like. And just get on with our own lives.
    Holding breath? No.

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  30. side show bob (3,410 comments) says:

    Screw the fucking bastards. I’m all for religious tolerance but what part of this farce does anything for the promotion of Islamic values, none, nothing. Nope, I’m far right, this is just waving a red flag flag at the bull. If I was a citizen of NY these bastards would be ducking bullets.

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  31. gazzaj (98 comments) says:

    [DPF- quoting “If the Japanese decided to open a cultural centre across from Pearl Harbour, that would be insensitive. If the Germans opened a Bach choral society across from Auschwitz, even after all these years, that would be an insensitive setting. I have absolutely nothing against Islam. I just think: Why there?””

    Well, there’s a few Japanese Cultural Centers in Honolulu and Pearl Harbour is surrounded by sushi bars so presumably sanity will prevail in the end.

    The analogy isn’t right though – bombing Pearl Harbour was an official act of the country of Japan – so all Japanese were implicitly responsible. 9/11 was the work of about 100 psychopaths – the other 1.5 billion muslims had nothing to do with it.

    So yeah, it may be hard for the victims’ families to be reminded of 9/11 by seeing a mosque, but they’re visiting the site of the attack so presumably being reminded is not actually a problem.

    The other example is just ridiculous – a Bach choral society across from Aushwitz???? Apart from being hopelessly contrived it’s not even slightly offensive.

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  32. Lazybum (259 comments) says:

    What about a pig farm out back.

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  33. Pete George (23,830 comments) says:

    Andrei, you only gave half the story (the half that suited your prejudice?) about the name Cordoba House.

    The sponsors of Cordoba House said the name was meant to invoke 8th–11th century Córdoba, Spain, a time and a place where Muslims, Christians, and Jews co-existed peacefully. Nevertheless, the project’s name raised issues for former U.S. Representative and Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich (GA-6), who claimed that it was a “a deliberately insulting term” on the grounds that Córdoba was the capital of the Caliphate of Córdoba during the period of Muslim rule in Spain, following the Umayyad defeat of the Visigoths in the 8th century.

    Polls show there has been quite a mixed reception

    By a margin of 52%–31% New York City voters opposed the construction, according to a Quinnipiac University Poll carried out in June 2010.
    46% of Manhattanites supported it, while 36% opposed it.
    Opposition was strongest in Staten Island, where 73% opposed it while only 14% supported it.
    A higher percentage of Republicans (82%) than Democrats (45%) opposed the plan.

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  34. tom hunter (5,134 comments) says:

    So what’s your own view Tom?

    If America is big enough to apply the principles of their constitution universally to all its citizens, is that a sign that the terrorists have won (as the authors of kowtows link suggest) or a sign that America has won?

    Ah, the US Constitution hoves into view. Predictable.

    While there are many people who are hurt and angered by the mosque proposal – to the degree that they would be willing to forget their constitutional principals and just ban it outright – I’m not one of them. Moreover, I will bet that there are a lot (perhaps a quiet majority) of Americans who will grind their teeth at recognition of the ploy yet accept the First Amendment that keeps the government (any level of government) out of religious practice. Not to mention the whole private property aspect.

    But here’s the thing RRM – that’s not what this thread and this story is really about.

    In fact it is precisely the sort of people who accept your argument who are proposing this gay bar. They recognise that the Government has no right to do anything to block this, and that they have no legal right to stop it as private citizens. But they also recognise that they can use other legal means to at least try to dissuade the owners from building this mosque. Most of all they recognise the double standards being applied, which is why they came up with this delicious idea in the first place.

    Previous to this I’d heard of getting unions to refuse to work on the construction, or economic protests – but I suppose that such could be cast as yet more examples of bullying intolerance. The fun of this idea is that it shows – in the clearest possible light – not just the weasel words of the people behind the mosque, but the weasel words of those who have called for peace, love and understanding over the last few weeks.

    And that’s the real lesson to take away here – that you and numerous others not only don’t really get the point but you actually get angry at the people who have the temerity to make it. You are unhappy with a private, smart-ass protest such as this in a way that you’re not with the original mosque proposal. The gay-bar backers are simply demanding that the same standards of moderation, understanding, and dialog be applied to their proposal by people who are demanding it for the mosque builders.

    When New Yorkers and others who lost loved ones in the 9/11 attacks express their hurt and anger, they’re effectively told by people like you to get over it, suck it up and get with the tolerant sensitivity program – not to mention the even loftier calls to support constitutional principles.

    By contrast, when the Muslim backers of the mosque express their hurt and anger at the insensitivity of Americans who might build a gay bar next to it they’re told by people like you that they don’t have to just suck it up and get with the constitution or the diversity of America. On the contrary they’re given the message that they have special rights and that their hurts will be taken away – and since that can’t be done via the constitution it will be done by ostracising their opponents as intolerant bigots. That’s the next layer of this piece of fun, to see what happens to the voices of such ostracisers when the opposition takes the form of a gay bar, a scene not usually associated with intolerant bigots.

    The mosque proposal is – like the burqa demands – a piece of political and cultural symbolism. But so is the gay bar proposal. Both may be serious. Both may be asking Americans to take a stand for the rights of “victim” groups. Both may actually be playing with the emotions of real victims. Both may be a piss-take.

    But whatever they are, both these proposals are a test – not of the constitution or of the backers of the mosque or the gay bar – but of you.

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  35. Pete George (23,830 comments) says:

    DPF: “I just think: Why there?”

    The building was damaged by 9-11 debris, that may make it better value (the plan is to demolish and rebuild). Manhattan already has a number of mosques and Muslim centres, but not many in lower Manhattan. The nearest one is a further 8 blocks from the WTC.

    There are already more gay bars in the same area.

    After it was purchased last year it was used as a Muslim prayer centre, it just seems to be the building plans that have highlighted the issue.

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  36. kowtow (8,945 comments) says:

    Controversy in Germany too.http://www.thelocal.de/society/20091107-23099.html

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  37. Dazzaman (1,082 comments) says:

    I would hate a mosque being built anywhere at any time but…I’ve gotta say that it will actually be 3 city blocks from ground zero. Pretty big, a city block in New York. Anyhoo, the fags and the muzzies neighbours….gotta laugh about that!

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  38. scrubone (3,097 comments) says:

    After it was purchased last year it was used as a Muslim prayer centre, it just seems to be the building plans that have highlighted the issue.

    As I understand it, those creating it are on the record as saying they deliberately chose a location as close as they could possibly get to ground zero.

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  39. tvb (4,556 comments) says:

    You miss the point. 911 has nothing to do with Islam though people including you thinks it does. I think building a mosque near the site emphasis the point that modern Islam has no truck with these crazed fanatics. One day people including hopefully you, can come to accept that. I find the decision inspiring.

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  40. scrubone (3,097 comments) says:

    911 has nothing to do with Islam

    That’s not what those who carried it out think.

    And sadly, I’ve noticed far, far too many Islamic leaders who won’t condemn terrorism like 9/11, Hamas etc.

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  41. scrubone (3,097 comments) says:

    Andrei, you only gave half the story (the half that suited your prejudice?) about the name Cordoba House.—- The sponsors of Cordoba House said the name was meant to invoke 8th–11th century Córdoba, Spain, a time and a place where Muslims, Christians, and Jews co-existed peacefully.

    Why did they co-existed peacefully? Because it was on *their* terms – they invaded and took over.

    If you examine the goals of the terrorists, their goal was to de-stabilise the west to enable a Muslim take over.

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  42. MikeNZ (3,233 comments) says:

    Scrubone
    It’s called Dhimmitude.

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  43. tom hunter (5,134 comments) says:

    The analogy isn’t right though …

    No, the analogy isn’t right, but not for the reasons stated.

    A more accurate analogy would have the governments of Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany opening Emperor Hirohito Academies and Ein Volk High Schools in cities across Europe and America in the 1930’s, not to mention St Adolf’s Church.

    Or perhaps having the Japanese obtain the negotiated end to the war in 1942 as they had planned, retaining their Greater East-Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere – and then planting a Shinto shrine in Pearl Harbour around 1946 once emotions had cooled.

    The reason nobody gets upset about Japanese or German Cultural Centres nowadays is that they each represent a very different people, culture and polity. The one that represented them 60 years ago was stopped and then destroyed – militarily, politically, ideologically. The beliefs might still have gone on beating in the hearts of millions but there was nothing to give them effect, and with the passing of generations that too has almost gone.

    That’s not the case with Islam.

    …– bombing Pearl Harbour was an official act of the country of Japan – so all Japanese were implicitly responsible.

    9/11 was the work of about 100 psychopaths – the other 1.5 billion muslims had nothing to do with it.

    The bombing of Pearl Harbour was an official act of a quasi-facist, militaristic, imperial government whose people had little say in the matter as a result of the very close attentions of the Kempeitai.

    By contrast, on the first anniversary of the London Tube bombings the Times of London commissioned a poll of British Muslims. Some of the findings:
    • 16 percent say that while the attacks may have been wrong, the cause was right
    • 7 percent agree that suicide attacks on civilians in Britain can be justified in some circumstances, rising to 16 percent for a military target.

    There are one million Muslims in London, officially, half of them under the age of 30. If 7 percent think suicide attacks on civilians are justified, that’s 70,000 potential supporters in Britains capital. Most of them will probably never be able to bring themselves to pull off such an act. But only nineteen men were actually needed for 9/11, and from a group of 70,000 I’d say those are good odds.

    I also object to this standard, pathetic effort by Western secularists to dismiss such people as “psychopaths” because it’s the usual effort to hand-wavingly dismiss such things as some sort of rare condition, possibly one that can be medically treated. One could argue strongly that Stalin, Hitler, Beria and Himmler were psychopaths but to no purpose in actually opposing them. Within the context of their worlds they were cunning and entirely rational – as were the planners and executors of 9/11 and numerous other terrorist attacks, and the larger groups who support them. It’s actually quite an act of bigotry to assume that they were psychopaths: they were humans beings performing great acts of evil by choice in pursuit of vision that may seem silly to you but which is entirely real to them and millions of others.

    In any case, a large majority of Western Muslims support almost all the strategic goals of the Islamist terrorists. According to another poll, over 60 percent of British Muslims want to live under sharia in Britain – that’s quite a basis for rationalising attacks. It also tells me that the two groups merely disagree on the means.

    So yeah, it may be hard for the victims’ families to be reminded of 9/11 by seeing a mosque, but they’re visiting the site of the attack so presumably being reminded is not actually a problem.

    Really? You are this obtuse? What those families will be reminded of, on every visit, will be the fact that sitting there is a place that worships the very religion in whose names their loved ones were killed.

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  44. KiwiGreg (3,278 comments) says:

    “And heaven forbid, a few other New Yorkers might through rubbing shoulders with them actually learn a thing or two about the non-christian, non-western world.”

    Have you actually ever BEEN to New York? It is possibly one of the most cosmopolitan and tolerant cities in the world.

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  45. MikeMan (173 comments) says:

    I wonder if Christian fundamentalists had hijacked a Air Saudi 747 and crashed it into Mecca killing everyone on board and several thousand people on the ground would you ask the Saudi government for permission to build a massive church several hundred meters away a few years later?

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  46. Courage Wolf (557 comments) says:

    Everytime I read andrei’s posts I am reminded of Jesus’ irrational judgmentalism, prejudice and intolerance towards those who were born into the wrong religion.

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  47. ephemera (557 comments) says:

    @ DPF

    ““If the Japanese decided to open a cultural centre across from Pearl Harbour, that would be insensitive. If the Germans opened a Bach choral society across from Auschwitz…”

    These are nations, though, not religions. It’s false equivalence.

    And besides, there *are* Japanese cultural centres all over Hawaii – I’m sure you’ve been there and seen the ethnic makeup of the islands, right?

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  48. Seán (373 comments) says:

    DPF – I have to say I am surprised at your view on this. Hardly the normally reasoned view, and hardly a constructive proposal in response.

    The Economist gets it right: Lexington: Build that mosque

    This paragraph sums up the idiocy of those opposing the construction: “No such plea of mitigation can be entered on behalf of Mr Gingrich. The former Republican speaker of the House of Representatives may or may not have presidential pretensions, but he certainly has intellectual ones. That makes it impossible to excuse the mean spirit and scrambled logic of his assertion that “there should be no mosque near ground zero so long as there are no churches or synagogues in Saudi Arabia”. Come again? Why hold the rights of Americans who happen to be Muslim hostage to the policy of a foreign country that happens also to be Muslim? To Mr Gingrich, it seems, an American Muslim is a Muslim first and an American second. Al-Qaeda would doubtless concur.”

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  49. Pete George (23,830 comments) says:

    Tom: According to another poll, over 60 percent of British Muslims want to live under sharia in Britain – that’s quite a basis for rationalising attacks.

    That’s quite a conclusion based on one poll (other polls are 40%-ish). But it depends on interpretations and intentions.

    Try polling how many Christians want to live under the ten commandments – but accept they need to live under the laws of the country.

    One supporter of the fundamental principles of Sharia Law is Taji Mustafa, of controversial Muslim group Hizb-ut-Tahrir. He said: “I make no apology for standing by Sharia Law. It is not the Sharia which is at fault, it is the way it is taken out of context and practiced by some countries.”

    He said that “corrupt” rulers have misinterpreted the laws and used them in the wrong ways, which has led to the impression of Sharia as draconian.

    Despite his faith in Sharia, Mustafa adds that it can only work in a “truly Islamic state” and therefore cannot be practiced in a country like the UK where Muslims co-exist with other groups.

    He said: “My challenge to The Telegraph is that they bring forward any groups or any examples of specific marches demanding Sharia Law.

    “Of course lots of Muslims would like to live their lives by the Sharia, meaning in a more Islamic way, and to have access to things like Islamic bank accounts or halal meat while they’re in hospital. But this in no way means that they want Sharia Law as a legal system to be introduced in the UK.”

    Inayat Banglawala of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) agrees. He said: “We believe the 40 per cent figure reflects the fact that a large body of Muslim opinion believes that they want to live their lives according to an Islamic code of ethics.

    “We do not however accept the conclusion that The Telegraph drew from it that somehow Muslims are campaigning for a parallel legal system to be brought into the UK. There’s no evidence of that.”

    http://www.omanforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14486

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  50. ben (2,280 comments) says:

    Have to say I love the idea of a mosque near Ground Zero, as a symbol of law being blind in America, and the true separation of church and state. Try pulling an equivalent stunt here in NZ. You can comply with every law going and still fail to get resource consent on the arbitrary grounds of some reviewer’s personal discomfort for whatever arbitrary reason they can think of.

    Opening a gay bar simply adds to the symbolism. Love it.

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  51. Murray (8,803 comments) says:

    Some questions:

    This is called the Cordoba project refering to the great mosque of Cordoba which was built over a Christian Visigothic Church as was part of a patten of taking over Christian religious sites after conquest. I refer you to the Dome of the Rock, the Sancta Sophia in Constaninople and numerous others where expansionsitic muslims removed all trace of preexisiting Christian culture and parasitically aquired the architecture as a symbol of their domination of others. It was a standard practice for celebrating a victory over Christians.

    Given this context how does this mosque look now?

    And if there is no relationship then why do they need to have their opening on Sept 11th on the 10th aniversary of the attacks?

    Cram your inclusion speechs, this an agressive intolerant culture clebrating mass murder as it has done since it arrived as the new kid on the block. they demand respect but display none.

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  52. GPT1 (2,021 comments) says:

    I think the granting of planning permission shows why the West and the US is better than “them” (ie freedom hating fascists using Islam to incite the masses). In fact it is why the US, for all its flaws, is better than most countries in the world (NZ, UK, Australia being in that league as well) – holding the principle of freedom of religion above reactionism and (even understandable) distrust.

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  53. Courage Wolf (557 comments) says:

    MikeMan (92) Says:

    August 13th, 2010 at 1:35 am
    I wonder if Christian fundamentalists had hijacked a Air Saudi 747 and crashed it into Mecca killing everyone on board and several thousand people on the ground would you ask the Saudi government for permission to build a massive church several hundred meters away a few years later?

    Well why the Hell not? Muslims need to get over their superstitions – if Allah is just a made up figment of their imagination then it’s about time they get with the times and throw away ridiculous beliefs. Likewise with Christians. Just because a Muslim would be offended by having a Church near Mecca does not mean therefore it’s OK for a dumbass Christian to be offended by a Mosque.

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  54. tvb (4,556 comments) says:

    We are better than intolerant yobbos who use religion as a cover for extreme prejudice. And yes build the mosque near ground zero to show we are better. It is christian to do that and that is why christianity is superior to all the other religions. And why the West is richer, more free more tolerant and yes superior.

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  55. radar (318 comments) says:

    You can bet your bottom dollar that if someone was to propose building a gay nightclub beside a church, many of the bible-thumping god-fearing gun-clinging gay-hating right wingers who actually watch FOX News would be up in arms.

    It’s a bit hypocritical for the one cable news channel that is openly anti-gay to suggest using the gay community to stir up Muslims.

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  56. Sonny Blount (1,809 comments) says:

    Radar,

    I’m atheist, don’t own a gun, and don’t hate gays. I watch Fox News.

    Greg Gutfeld is the same (not certain about the guns, he is married to a Russian also), and anchors a show on Fox News.

    From where do you extract your bigoted opinion of Fox News viewership? Is it because you disagree with the views you see there that you choose to slur the audience, or is it because Jon Stewart et al told you how to think?

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  57. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    I wonder…

    if there are any Coca Cola billboards in Hiroshima or Nagasaki…

    or if commercial American planes fly into (or over?) Hiroshima or Nagasaki…

    Hey DPF, keep on stoking the Islamophobes…

    It seems to be the only topic keeping this site alive!

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  58. Hurf Durf (2,860 comments) says:

    From where do you extract your bigoted opinion of Fox News viewership? Is it because you disagree with the views you see there that you choose to slur the audience, or is it because Jon Stewart et al told you how to think?

    Gutfeld and Beck are pretty libertarian on the subject of gay marraige, I think.

    And Sonny, he gets it from the fact the insectoid left need a nice, broad enemy they can easily lodge in the “that’s the bad guy!” lobe in their brains in order to be able to function properly.

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