Ghastly opportunism
I’ve wanted to blog this several days ago, but out of respect I’ve held off. But hell have I been sickened by the way certain people have not seen the earthquake as a disaster, but an opportunity to clamour for higher taxes.
I’m not against a debate on how we pay for the earthquake damage, but to my mind here’s the rough order of priority after the earthquake:
- Find and heal the wounded
- Provide emergency assistance to the survivors who need it
- Find and bury/cremate the dead
- Work out the cost of rebuilding Christchurch
- Decide how to pay for it
But within just three days of the earthquake, we had both politicians and media demanding tax increases, and insisting the PM rule things in or out. For fuck’s sake – couldn’t that wait until you know after we’ve stopped pulling bodies from the rubble?
The media get some criticism here. Last week they asked the PM whether he would increase taxes, and he said he didn’t want to rule anything out. So of course the headlines are Government looking to increase taxes, until the Govt then ruled that out. Then this week they ask if certain spending programmes are off the table, and merely because Bill English refuses to make decisions on the hoof, the headlines are that this spending programme may be cut.
Could the media please refrain from asking such stupid questions until we are past step four, and especially when we are not even much past step one. Until the costs of the earthquake are known, such questions are stupid and to be blunt offensive.
But politicians on the left are also to blame. Russel Norman on the 25th, a mere three days after the quake, blogged in detail about how much he wanted taxes to go up (temporarily it is claimed) for those earning over $48,000 a year. He has absolutely no idea how much the earthquake will cost, but regardless has tables showing how he would raise $487m a year.
I can’t comprehend how one’s immediate reaction after an earthquake is to ask the Parliamentary Library to calculate how much extra revenue one can gain from an additional tax, and then blog about it. Did he think that if he waited a month it would not still be a topic for discussion?
Such a post a month after the earthquake would be fine. But within 72 hours. My God.
Cactus Kate has also written a number of posts exposing the hypocrisy on certain blogs. Her latest is here, and this post also a must read.
As to the substance of should there be a tax increase to pay for the earthquake, I’m surprised so many on the left have forgotten their Keynesian economics.
There is no doubt the Government is going to face a bill of many billions. Some of this will be through the EQC and some through the consolidated fund. I would urge the Government not to be stingy, and believe they won’t be (even though of course they can’t cover everything).
The EQC funded stuff is not a problem – just like any insurance company, levies will be set to make sure reserves are adequate.
So the debate is for what you fund from the consolidated fund. And the left are arguing that one should increase taxes to pay for it. Now increasing income taxes dampens economic growth – so at a time when we are on the verge of going back into recession, when already GDP growth projections have dropped 2.0%, they want to contract the economy further.
Increasing taxes in a recession (which we surely will now be in) is plain dumb. And worse, its is being promoted by people who are just using the earthquake as an opportunity for their sock the rich mentality.
March 2nd, 2011 at 8:57 am
Shameful behaviour by the left. Just as well they aren’t running the show and won’t be after November either.
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:05 am
I think the media (or some of it) are mostly to blame here, asking questions that should have no answer at this stage and then making headlines out of unanswered possibilities.
Goff has also been a prat – saying that “all New Zealanders should share the burden” and in the next sentence saying that people who “need” benefits and interest free loans shouldn’t have anything reduced.
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:06 am
This would be the same media that’s currently making a fortune on same disaster?
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:09 am
When asked this morning on the Rock what options the government was looking at to pay for the quake, Key said estimates where somewhere in the 20 billion mark. Of that, we already have 15 billion in the form of EQC and insurance, this leaves a net 5 billion or so over a period of what could be 10 years. Key stated he was not overly stressed at the prospect of finding 5 billion over such a period of time. Even taking in to account some of the flow on costs.
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:11 am
Agreed but would add in terms of blogs there have also been right blogs being equally appalling and blogging how we now need to cut public services to fund it.
I would agree increasing taxes now is a stupid way to fund it. I would say though this is a perfect example of when a government should borrow money. Worry about what method they can pay it back with when Christchurch is getting on its feet again.
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:13 am
I’ve been quite suprised at how quickly some have gone back to business as usual while the rest of us are thinking about how we can help.
I would balance any criticism of the left by noting that they are in opposition right now and don’t have the same coverage as the government right now. Not that that excuses some of the more extreme examples such as you’ve outlined here (and a few on the right haven’t done themselves proud either).
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:14 am
It’s barely surprising; since the earthquake, a certain left-wing blog has thrown a series of bones to its salivating readership with titles such as The Shock Doctrine, Everything is a Lie, and Rebuilding Choices Reveal Govt Priorities.
I blogged about one particularly offensive comment last week which is still there, unmoderated. Amongst other things it referred to John Key as “an overdressed BMW buying piece of shit scraped off the bottom of the collective new zealand shoe”. That none of the blog’s moderators have passed any comment towards that one (despite having commented adversely on other, later comments on the same thread) suggests that they endorse the view of the commenter.
Ironically, one of the current threads begins thus:
I’m really pissed off that politics has come into the Christchurch earthquake so quickly.
Hypocrisy alert!!
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:14 am
Not unexpected from Norman and the Luddites, whose ultimate dream is a socialist state after all capitalist endeavours are killed off by high taxes and endless regulations.
The Greens are saying they welcome a return to the Middle Age.
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:15 am
This would be the same media that’s currently making a fortune on same disaster?
Yea, I bet those long hours of commercial free coverage just raked in the advertising dollars /sarc.
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:18 am
Just something I wrote of CK’s blog. We need to think about just how much assistance we need.. or should give Chch.. and how much control the Govt should take. Yes, we must help Chch, but equally there’s an argument that the more non Canterbury help, the less control Chch gets over its own destiny.
JC
“Yesterday I saw Phil Goff inspiring Chch people with a story of our past.. the story of Napier’s rebirth after the 1932 quake.
I’m pleased he chose Napier, because that story does indeed offer a shining example.
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/historic-earthquakes/8
The salient points of the story are that people mucked in for a year cleaning the place up and a year later they started the rebuild, and a year later the shiny new city was open for business. In the meantime people made do with a temporary shopping centre called “Tin Town”.
The State made provision for loans, but they were meager and had harsh conditions. Napier was rebuilt on money from charity and the endeavors of its own citizens.
Thats the story on the shining city by the sea.. the State couldn’t do, didn’t plan it and didn’t supervise the rebuild. It was two commissioners, their local committees, a bit of charity, the ANZ bank and a whole lot of self sufficient Hawkes Bay people who did it in the midst of the Great Depression.
Whats more, many of them did it, at least initially, from a tent in the back yard, a BBQ made out of (plentiful) house bricks, and a small sacking enclosed dunny near the back fence.
JC
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:24 am
Really? So you are also critising the Bill English is looking at partial state-own assests sales ( a National favourite) to raise cash a mere week after the earthquake?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10709598
So you criticise voices to use a levy to pay for the reconstruction, but it’s perfectly fine for National to use the tragedy as a pretext to push their political agenda such as state asset sales.
It’s okay for the government to look at how to raise cash within a week of the disaster but not for anyone else?
I don’t mind having a look at all options, but to call a call for a levy ghastly opportunism while National is doing the very same mind games on their side is a tad hypocritical.
[DPF: English is not at fault. The media is. If Bill put out a press release proclaiming the need for asset sales to fund the quake recovery then that would be fair criticism. But if you look at the story, he was asked a question by a journalist, and merely responded "yeah that would help".]
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:27 am
DPF – Are you equally sickened by Rodney Hide’s call for immediate Government spending cuts? Or did you miss that one?
[DPF: Can you provide a link to where Rodney proactively called for these in response to the earthquake, rather than responding to someone else's call]
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:32 am
I found people commenting on KB about the cost of the earthquake almost immediately after it happened really offensive. Here in CHCh , we were still distraught and only thinking of the dead , the missing , the grieving families…There was something really tasteless about it.
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:32 am
Well written and well put David. The timing was terrible. Does Russel Norman have any idea how much damage he did to potential emergency/charity donations with his ‘lets squeeze even more tax out of those silly enough to work for a living’ talk? I admit myself that I was suckered in by the media and held back a little on my Red Cross donation…thinking that my pay packet is likely to be decimated even more in the near future while Norman and his party supporters (beneficiaries) continue to suckle on the taxpayers teet and contribute absolutely nothing to society….
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:34 am
Some on the loony Left are even attacking the Govt for considering an international appeal to raise funds, because that might reduce the need to soak the rich in this country. Take this from Bomber for example:
But hey, why pass on NZ’s worst tragedy ever to push your political agenda?
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:35 am
Hide was as blatantly opportunistic as Norman. Sad to see that, but it might end up sadder for him in the polls.
And “the rich should pay” is being pushed in the usual places.
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:38 am
“I’m surprised so many on the left have forgotten their Keynesian economics.”…….
Therein lies the problem!!
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:39 am
Yea, I bet those long hours of commercial free coverage just raked in the advertising dollars /sarc.
Sorry I didn’t realise TV1 and TV3 were the only media outlets in this country.
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:42 am
Of course as there are not enough rich to go round Norman’s impost would start at $48,000, or alternatively in Norman’s world you are a rich prick at $48,000.
I suspect that trimming not eliminating WFF anf interest free student loans could well yield at least $500 mill per year.
If we stopped subsidising Kiwisaver and upped the % payable by employers, then we could really save some dosh and create a pool of savings for investment in infrastructure
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:45 am
@Joana – I’m in CHCH and think it is entirely appropriate to be talking about the cost of the earthquake, it is hardly ‘tasteless’ it is entirely necessary.
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:47 am
Good post David.
Re: Keynesian economics. I think the general view among mainstream economists (and others can correct me if I am wrong) is that the fundamental driver of government’s ability to depress an economy is not taxation but expenditure. Even if government raises spending through deficit financing rather than raising taxes, taxpayers observe the higher spending and correctly anticipate higher future taxes anyway to pay for it, and increase savings to compensate. Thus a) the stimulatory effect of deficit spending is largely muted, and all that happens in the long run is crowding out of private spending with public, and b) the real way to stimulate the economy is to lower public expenditure.
I am not aware of any examples of deficit spending producing the stimulus predicted by Keynesian economics. There are, however, a number of examples of cuts in government spending producing major economic growth, Ireland in the 1990s is one of them.
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:49 am
The Standard has been then worst:
http://thestandard.org.nz/in-praise-of-resilient-communities/
http://thestandard.org.nz/in-praise-of-the-bureaucracy/
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:57 am
Hey Redeye whats goin on? Hows things over “there”?
March 2nd, 2011 at 10:03 am
The Standard has a curious obsession with trying to deny any connection with Labour, and ban anyone who hints at or suggests it. Funny thing is that every time they make a fuss over it they further highlight the obvious.
March 2nd, 2011 at 10:13 am
I see no problem with discussing various ways of how we might pay for the reconstruction of Christchurch.
Rather than tasteless, I think this would give people comfort.
Whats the big deal?
However, Russell Norman is obnoxious – he is pushing political agendas using the earthquake as an excuse.
March 2nd, 2011 at 10:27 am
There is no use getting upset at the incredibly inappropriate rantings of the authors on the Standard.
If you want to understand who these people are I suggest you watch the movie “the Baader Meinhoff Komplex”.
They are just total Marxist loons whos grip on reality is perilous at best. Their cheese has truly slipped off the cracker.
Russel Norman on the other hand is a brilliant cautionary tale on what happens if you don’t drown gingas at birth.
March 2nd, 2011 at 10:38 am
Yes, there have been a few blog commentators , a couple of reporters, and the odd MP whose obsession with politics has led them prematurely to raise raise issues such as paying for the rebuilding, and to propose some stupid ideas. (Not all of the insensitive ones have been on the left either.)
But the vast majority have not behaved like this. The vast majority have kept their mouths shut (except for entirely appropriate expressions of sympathy) and mucked in to help where they could. We should remember that.
And now, eight days after the quake, it is time to start thinking about the future too.
March 2nd, 2011 at 10:47 am
@Fromage You’re comparing extreme german anarchists to the standard authors? No F’n way. They proposed a simple tax levied to help cover the massive liability that the govt. will have to deal with. I don’t know what world you live in but it’s so far removed from reality that you’re barely functional
March 2nd, 2011 at 10:47 am
Put away the mock outrage, DPF. It’s a perfectly valid thing to be discussing. Dickheads like Mr Norman, notwithstanding. When, in your opinion, would it be decent to discuss this given that recovery of some bodies could take months? Was it indecent of the government to give a damage estimate the day after the quake? Of course not.
We’re all big boys and girls. We can do things in parallel. Figuring out the cost and where the money will come from is equally important to the work being done in the CBD by NZer’s and our friends from overseas. The biggest threat for Christchurch now is that the city itself will die if residents and businesses feel that nothing is being done.
[DPF: I think once we have some firm numbers on the costs, and what they relate to is the time to have the debate. That is at least a couple of weeks off]
March 2nd, 2011 at 10:58 am
It might be decent to discuss funding options now if the good of Christchurch and the good of the country were foremost and party political ideologies and media trying to invent political stories were put aside, at least for now but preferably permanently.
March 2nd, 2011 at 10:58 am
@ DPF – I don’t have a link but he was quoted on Morning Report this morning – they carried a voice grab of him saying that the Government needed to cut expenditure because it is borrowing too much. I think the original interview might have been on Checkpoint yesterday afternoon. Of course, nothing new in ACT wanting to cut Government expenditure – it is what they sincerely believe and advocate. But I think it is just as opportunistic as the other parties you have criticised.
March 2nd, 2011 at 10:59 am
Don’t worry DPF. The end result will be the same. Lots of new qango’s, authorites, boards, commissions and competing government entities similar to what we are seeing being created in Auckland at the moment. They seem to be the flavour of the month. have a look at what Fran is proposing. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10709558
The again we could let Cantabrians choose how they want to develop using our existing Wellington departments to support and advise them. But that would be too simple wouldn’t it.
March 2nd, 2011 at 11:04 am
DPF is correct in expressing his disgust at how the political opportunitists have amateurishly exploited the disaster to advance their equally ill-concieved economic theories.
The Greens are not an economic powerhouse and quite frankly would not have the skills or economic literacy to run a cake raffle, therefore anything Russel Norman says would have a comedic effect on the markets.
As for the media, a number lack the professionalism to comment strategically on economic issues, their job is to sell advertisements.
March 2nd, 2011 at 11:13 am
Rule 243) out of the lefts little red handbook. Never let a good disaster go to waste. Thank God these dribbling lefty tossers are seen as the total self serving fools they are, anything to further implement the socialist ideology. You think these wankers would settle for a few more dollars of tax, forget it, their dream state is in control of all resources. The government should be a shoulder to lean on but not so much as it becomes a simmer frame. The people of CHCH will ultimately have to be the masters of their own destiny’s. The hard part in all of this is how much is a hand up and what stage does it become a hand out.
March 2nd, 2011 at 11:18 am
The tenor of the writer of this blog and most of those who have responded are indicative of a very greedy and selfish little bunch of right-wingers who I doubt actually live in Christchurch and have no idea of the level of destruction of this city.
Shame on all of you!
There would be absolutely nothing wrong with reversing National’s last tax cut to assist in the rebuilding, but you lot disgust me with your greed!
[DPF: How much have you donated to the various appeals?]
March 2nd, 2011 at 11:25 am
Good argument Jacko for ending middle class welfare in the name of WFF, interest free student loans and Kiwisaver payments by the government.
Also end all the high paying jobs in the alphabet soup of goverment funded organisations, like Ministry of Womens Affairs, Human Rights Commision, etc.
Between the lot of them we could save easily 10-15 billion dollars a year and front up in cash to rebuild CHCH. The people who support them disgust me with thier greed!
March 2nd, 2011 at 11:29 am
Malcolm @ 10.47am.
the biggest threat to Christchurch is morale.
people are very flat and we need to stay positive….
but when your house is damaged, your job uncertain and all the basic building blocks of your life are under threat, many may take to easy option of leaving town.
we need strong leadership to give people hope that the Christchurch we know and love, will be back in some shape and form in the future.
March 2nd, 2011 at 11:32 am
jacko – If one wrote a similar style ‘anti-left’ comment on many of the left wing blogs, it would be taken down and the person would be banned – more likely it would not even appear.
One could equally argue that those who consider they are ‘entitled’ to benefits when they do not really need them (eg lifelong tenure in state houses, free super gold card travel to Masterton and Waiheke Island, high earning graduates paying no interest on student loans) are equally greedy.
Note super gold card holders do not get free travel to Great Barrier Island or on the Ashburton – Christchurch bus (this being roughly equivalent to the Masterton – Wellington train).
March 2nd, 2011 at 11:48 am
Umm , dpf, where do you get your figure of 2 weeks from? There is no way they will have an accurate determination of cost in just 2 weeks. Much of the damage is underground too, and that cannot be seen.
John Key has already thrown out a figure of 20 billion dollars. I’d suggest , regardless of whether the final cost is 15 billion or 25 billion, the ultimate financing arrangement will be the same.
And, I have no problem with working in parallel – in fact, I demand it. The wheels should already be turning and the residents of Christchurch are going to want to know their future.
March 2nd, 2011 at 11:50 am
Jacko, who has expressed anything here that suggests they’re greedy or selfish?
March 2nd, 2011 at 11:58 am
Jacko, good one. After your post I just can’t wait to get out and donate to CHCH, like fuck. The world or the rest of NZ dosen’t owe you a living. I’m sorry for your misfortune but calling others greedy ain’t going to help you none. Sometimes life is a barrel of shit. Increasing tax won’t make a drop of difference, in fact I would say increasing tax rates will do nothing except drag all down which will be of no help to you and your city. And calling people greedy will just drive away the help you seek.
March 2nd, 2011 at 12:04 pm
Jacko dont be an egg bro
March 2nd, 2011 at 12:16 pm
I find it really depressing, but hardly surprising, that so many in the media and those they are interviewing have instantly jumped to the idea that the reconstruction effort requires central planning.
Christchurch was not build by a planning commission and I fail to see why it has to be rebuilt by one.
There are some lessons from history that we can learn here.
After Cyclone Tracy destroyed Darwin, the Darwin Reconstruction Commission wasted a lot of time on “blue skies thinking” about whether Darwin should be rebuild at all, if so where and whether this was an opportunity to fix some of the planning “failures” of the old city. This was a waste because politically and economically what was wanted was to reconstruct the old Darwin, not to start some exercise in utopian planning. In the end, Darwin was rebuilt using the same streets as before, but with stronger buildings.
This, of course, was also what happened in London after the Great Fire of 1666, since rebuilding on the old street layout, on the existing foundations but using bricks instead of wood was a lot cheaper. Sure, London didn’t get to look like Paris, but it did get to be a liveable city again quickly.
March 2nd, 2011 at 12:19 pm
For Fcuk’s sake – a few opposition MPs are suggesting using some taxation in order to raise some money for CHCH relief/rebuilding effort.
I wonder if you would get so uptight and offended, if Govt MPs were talking about fast-tracking state spending cuts in order to raise some money for CHCH relief/rebuilding efforts? Somehow I doubt it.
[DPF: If a National MP three days after the earthquake blogged a detailed list of spending cuts he or she thinks should be made to pay for the earthquake, I'd be furious and want them to have a backside so sore even a masochist would cry stop]
March 2nd, 2011 at 12:21 pm
John Key:
Do I take it from your lack of comment on that statement from the PM that you are fully supportive of it, DPF?
After at least one instance of relatives of someone who was alive and well being advised by the Police she was dead, I would have thought the PM would have just let the Police get on with their job.
March 2nd, 2011 at 12:25 pm
DPF, I disagree.
Christchurch stopped, the world didn’t and for that matter NZ didn’t.
It’s election year. No one who thinks expects the slime to do anything other than attempt to put down the current lot at every opportunity.
No one expects the dishonest lowlife scum who inhabit the NZ left wing to do other than call for more taxes, knowing as they do that more taxes fixes everything just as everyone expects those clear thinkers among us to call for the sensible redirection of current PC-based tax money (ETS etc.) towards assisting Christchurch.
To suggest the left do something even more dishonest, show honesty, integrity or compassion, is ridiculous, unreal in the extreme.
March 2nd, 2011 at 12:48 pm
God, another person who suggests that if someone doesn’t comment on something, the are fully supportive of it. Like asking “do I take it from your lake of comment on Mein Kampf that you are fully supportive of it?”
March 2nd, 2011 at 12:54 pm
Be nice if the new Kiwirail rolling stock contracts were let to NZ businesses.
Surely at a time like this it would be much better to pour the money into the NZ economy rather than an overseas company.
March 2nd, 2011 at 1:08 pm
The Standard has been appalling…
I decided this week I won’t ever be posting there again in an attempt to bring anyone with a half open mind back to morality…
I realised they are far too gone to ever rejoin us back in reality…
March 2nd, 2011 at 1:09 pm
@georgebolwing . I wouldn’t worry !
A walk around today out here in the [Chch] Tech Park showed all the available office space now in use which you might expect. However I also saw diggers at work on site preparation on a bare site that has had a big ‘for lease’ sign out for months (Sir William Pickering Drive). Also surveyors theodolites on another site that had construction halted months ago after site preparation when the builder went bust (Sir Gilbert Simpson Drive). And not a planner in sight!
I’m suspect this will be happening all over the (non-eastern) city fringe and there will be a greatly reduced demand for central city space if/when it is rebuilt.
March 2nd, 2011 at 1:15 pm
Manolo@914
In some respects I would welcome a return to the Middle Ages.
There would be a “little Ice Age” and we wouldn’t have to listen to global warming rubbish and best of all,
they knew how to treat enemies of the realm in those days ,and Greens, as far as I’m concerned fall into that category.
On balance though I love the benefits that coal,industrialisation,the Empire,global trade etc have given us so I’ll settle for the very interesting times we live in.
March 2nd, 2011 at 1:24 pm
Toad @ 12.21pm
Why the hell should DPF, or anyone else for that matter, have to comment on every statement the Prime Minister makes?
March 2nd, 2011 at 1:34 pm
lol yea, cause the greens would never interfere with the police if they were in power
March 2nd, 2011 at 2:14 pm
“Be nice if the new Kiwirail rolling stock contracts were let to NZ businesses.
Surely at a time like this it would be much better to pour the money into the NZ economy rather than an overseas company.”
Just because there has been an earthquake doesn’t mean we have to run around doing stupid things. Now cancelling the order altogether might make sense.
March 2nd, 2011 at 3:19 pm
I think Russel Norman’s blog post was premature and offensive.
- His blog post was premature for obvious reasons:
Er, no Russel, a more practical and principled response to the Christchurch earthquake would surely have been to focus on items 1-3 on DPF’s list.
- His blog post was offensive because, in particular, he wrote:
So Russel – actually he uses the royal “We” – doesn’t wish to politicise the argument but, hey, he’ll take any opportunity to stick another pin into the asset-sales voodoo doll. What a class act he is.
But, as if Russel’s blog post weren’t bad enough, the prize for sheer agenda-driven political opportunism on that thread has to go to Philu:
*Sigh*
March 2nd, 2011 at 4:02 pm
Key MAY have made an error if his remark regarding police notifications if what Toad said is true and if the remark can be attributed to the mistake by the police. It is more than likely that Parker have made one or two mistakes as well. Both men are working very long hours with little sleep and are expected to comment quickly on many issues and make hundreds of important decisions. Russell Brown is under no such pressure.
I shutter to think how many mistakes would have been made if Anderton and Goff were in charge. The thought of Len Brown as mayor is not a thing I would like to think about.
March 2nd, 2011 at 4:16 pm
Correction. Sorry Russell Brown. I meant Russell Norman
March 2nd, 2011 at 4:21 pm
“The question is whether there is a wider public interest in the names of the missing and I think the answer is … we need to try and get that list in the public domain.” – John Key
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/4715006/PM-urges-police-to-name-Christchurch-earthquake-victims
Dear John
Why does the public need to know the names of the dead ? Don’t you have more worthwhile issues to occupy your mind and time and subsequently comment on, than the names of people missing, presumed dead ?
I’m sure the police have far more important things to do than acommodate your ghoulish requests. How about you stop being an in your face ass, retire to Wellington and get on with some real work ? Let those who have better things to do, like recover the dead and reconcile the missing, get on with it.
And maybe let the families decide themselves if they want the names of their relatives released for public consumption.
yours
BV
March 2nd, 2011 at 4:27 pm
So is there actually an official list of identified dead yet? I have an interest in perusing it.
March 2nd, 2011 at 4:33 pm
Would you also like before and after pictures to go with the list RN ?
March 2nd, 2011 at 4:40 pm
No RB, I wouldn’t.
March 2nd, 2011 at 4:56 pm
@Nomestradamus 3:19 pm
Tell me what a politician can actually do to focus on items 1 & 3 on DPF’s list?
Sweet FA, unless he or she was a police officer, firefighter, or funeral director in a past life. And I haven’t heard anyone griping about the Government’s emergency assistance package for business and employees, although there are some gripes about the focus on the recovery operation in the CBD at the expense of basic support to the eastern suburbs where people are still having to shit in holes in their back gardens.
The PM and Minister of Civil Defence aside, surely the primary role for politicians here is to debate how the reconstruction is going to be done and paid for. It is not a matter of “priorities” (as DPF puts it) – it is a matter of everyone carrying out their appropriate role, and the sooner everyone gets onto all aspects of that the better as far as I am concerned.
March 2nd, 2011 at 5:03 pm
Cameras at the funeral, shots of the casket and grief stricken pallbearers enough for you then RN ? Wouldn’t it serve the wider public interest to also see graphic pictures of the fatal injuries suffered ?
The tragedy of it all surely needs ramped up for those of us not personally affected. There is after all much political mileage to be made from this disaster.
We need to be thankful and grateful that that nice Mr Key is publicly seen to be serving our interests wisely, don’t you think ?
March 2nd, 2011 at 5:26 pm
“[DPF: If a National MP three days after the earthquake blogged a detailed list of spending cuts he or she thinks should be made to pay for the earthquake, I'd be furious and want them to have a backside so sore even a masochist would cry stop]”
But for them to do it 7 days after the quake is totally OK huh. Sorry but it’s absurd to be appalled by one “side” arguing for a fiscal response that suits their ideology when your “side” is doing exactly the same to the absolute letter. Cutting spending by $300m a week from Working for Families, interest free loans, and the Auckland rail loop is dream ideology for National.
March 2nd, 2011 at 5:28 pm
Toad
” although there are some gripes about the focus on the recovery operation in the CBD at the expense of basic support to the eastern suburbs where people are still having to shit in holes in their back gardens.”
Glad to know that the Greens care more about people shitting in their gardens than they do about saving lives.
Seriously Toad, how low can you guys go?
March 2nd, 2011 at 5:36 pm
Not like you give a shit about saving lives bruv ?
You’d probably advocate euthanising any poor bastard lucky enough to be pulled from the rubble at this late stage in the “rescue” operation. Save the state a truckload in medical bills only for them to go on sickness and disability benefit afterwards.
You’re a funny bugger all right.
March 2nd, 2011 at 5:37 pm
Toad
“The PM and Minister of Civil Defence aside, surely the primary role for politicians here is to debate how the reconstruction is going to be done and paid for”
And while I am at, is stop fucking pretending that the Greens want to debate anything.
You do not want to debate, you do not want to compromise your position at all, you would never consider doing a deal with the Nat’s that meant a reduction in benefits for bludgers, you would/will simply push the same old failed logic of tax increases.
This is so typical of the Greens, you con the more stupid members of our community into thinking that you the Greens are conciliatory, that you are happy to compromise, that you are the party with integrity when the truth is that you are exactly the opposite.
DPF is right, the Greens have been disgusting this past week, they have used a tragedy for their own political gains, I hope that the media pick up on it, I hope the public kick your backsides back into the sewer where you all belong.
March 2nd, 2011 at 5:38 pm
Black
Happy to shoot all looters on sight if that is what you are getting at.
March 2nd, 2011 at 5:44 pm
Save your bullets for the revolution bruv. Get out there with an axe and set about hacking some limbs off.
March 2nd, 2011 at 5:48 pm
Black
Cannot do that apparently, according to Toad we should all be out there informing on our neighbours if they take a crap in the garden, the dead and dieing should have been left where they are according to the Greens.
March 2nd, 2011 at 6:01 pm
Seriously bruv. Lay off the crack aye. It’ll be the death of you !
March 2nd, 2011 at 6:10 pm
The Greens are fighting relevance & for votes, though why you’d vote for a party that never wants to be part of a govt is beyond me. Without the likes of Donald, Fitzsimons, Nando, Locke & dear old Sue they’ve lost all their colour & now resemble the Grey Party.
Norman is just doing what any decent trougher would do & is trying to make sure his trough is full come next election & if that means saying something, anything to keep his & the party’s name in the news then so be it. any publicity is good publicity.
March 2nd, 2011 at 6:40 pm
@ big bruv 5:38 pm
So murder is in your opinion a lesser crime than theft or burglary, bruv? And should be excused if it is a thief or burglar who is murdered.
I thought even you wouldn’t go there, but you have. Disgusting!
March 2nd, 2011 at 6:53 pm
What a funny debate. But Phil Goff will be pleased that DPF no longer labels him as part of the “left” since he has stated a similar position to that espoused in the post.
I seem to remember Gillard in Australia being pretty quick off the drawing board with her flood levy. And I would suggest that’s who Norman took his cue from regarding the income levels at which it kicks in.
DPF blames the controversy (which it now surely is) on the media for asking intelligent questions. I blame Key and English for giving dumb answers. Or were they actually subconsciously speaking from their ideological hearts?
Also, Keynesian economics does not call for no tax increases, period. That’s a very convenient and self-serving fiction for the wealthier members of society. Under a Keynesian plan, tax increases for the wealthier (although the definition of such is problematical, but that’s what governments are for) can be part of the plan. The main thing is to get income generated amongst the group that actually spends their money in shops etc.
And in answer to Ben, who asked for an example of Keynesian economics at work, think FDR and the Great Depression.
March 2nd, 2011 at 6:58 pm
It’s not murder Toad, it is justice.
Anyway, what do you care, you are happy to leave the dead and dying to go chasing somebody who might be taking a crap in their garden.
What would you do Toad, make going to the toilet illegal in times like this?
March 2nd, 2011 at 7:00 pm
You seem to think you’ve got a righteous stance on this matter, but then you’re obviously coming from the viewpoint of someone not personally affected. Probably because you’re in Germany. Fact of the matter is that most of us are in many ways personally affected by this. From my own perspective I spent a few years at school in Chch and would spare a thought for old friends and their families. That’s why I’m interested in the official list, so far I’ve only found what’s on news sites. That is aside from family in Chch ranging from siblings to 3rd+ cousins. So far everyone is reported ok from my closer family, some have lost businesses and houses, but again any information is of interest to me.
So I understand you are coming from a different perspective, but you could try and see that other people have their own perspectives too.
March 2nd, 2011 at 8:09 pm
By all means spare a thought for the safety of past acquaintances, but spare a thought also for a family’s choice to not have details of their deceased loved ones splashed all over the media, merely to satisfy your and John Key’s morbid curiosity masking as the wider public interest.
Many of these victims were merely unfortunate to be in the wrong place at the right time. We don’t need to see them lined up in the press as unsung heroes for the cause, whatever that may be. We don’t need to see crappy journalists wringing the tears out of an obviously distressed family, who are lamenting the passing of their loved one, for good copy’s sake.
There warrants greater use of journalistic endeavour and public services, especially by Key and the Police, than pandering to the public’s ‘supposed’ demand for disaster porn and death tolls.
Let the families mourn and grieve in private.
March 2nd, 2011 at 8:15 pm
It’s not murder Toad, it is justice.
It’s not justice. Slippery slope to a seriously shit society if you go there.
March 2nd, 2011 at 8:24 pm
<in answer to Ben, who asked for an example of Keynesian economics at work, think FDR and the Great Depression.
Yes well newsflash Luc, the current economic conditions 3/3/11 NZ overall don’t equal great depression, nor does the rest of the world, by a very long shot indeed.
When discussing Keynesian economics I like to draw attention to the seventies with command economies all over the Western world and look how well that worked and look what happened from the early eighties onward when those commanded economies were loosened up the world over and that’s our history. That’s what Keynesian economics does when you apply it hard enough and wasn’t it good, not.
History repeats Luc when you forget it. Some people don’t realise there’s a second part to that quote.
March 2nd, 2011 at 9:40 pm
The cost of rebuiding Chch is staggering and is going to burden NZ for a decade or two. Calling necessity political “Ideology” is just the kind of head-in-the-liquifaction thinking of those that mistakenly think they are opposition.
I find it almost impossible to “get my head around” anybody or party that thinks it is more “responsible” to give dole-bludgeing theives and lazy rote-breeding mothers assistance over decent tax-paying New Zealanders.
Visit http://jwatson.kol.co.nz and add some well needed balance!
March 3rd, 2011 at 11:01 am
I agree, David. Completely.
http://thenzhomeoffice.blogspot.com/2011/03/trotter-apologises-for-left.html
March 3rd, 2011 at 5:30 pm
Just to underscore the stupidity of the calls for tax increases, I think you can add steps 4a, discover what the insurance short-fall is (if any) and 4b, take the decision as to whether the rest of us should cover the uninsured, or under-insured.
There is far more to it than just the EQC proportion (of which its liability is capped at $1.5b as it has reinsurance above that amount), there are commercial insurers over and above the EQC’s cover on residential properties and of course totally over commerical properties. I understand that the Councils even have insurance on their underground assets.
Talk of having to raise many billions of dollars is just conviently timed nonsense serving only to sock it to us “rich pricks” for political purposes.