Why we shouldn’t give into our primal instincts
March 10th, 2011 at 3:29 pm by David FarrarI oppose the death penalty. I don’t think the state should be able to legally kill its own citizens (even the scum) and I also don’t like the risk of an innocent person being executed as has happened in the US.
But despite that when I read about some dreg of society raping a five year old, or sticking a two year old in a clothes dryer, that my primal instinct is to wish that person dead. If someone raped someone very close to me, my instincts would be to wonder if I could kill them myself.
I doubt I am unique in having a fairly primal emotional response to those who commit horrific crimes. If you don’t have such a response – well you’re a better person than me.
But we’ve had a good lesson this week on why one should not give into one insitcive desire for harsh and swift justice without due process – ie a trial.
I recall many years ago the death by cancer of a close family friend. During her funeral a burglar tried to rob her place (they see the funeral notice asking for donations to a hospice and conclude there are drugs on the premise they can steal to sell). This is about as scummy as it gets – robbing a mourning family during their mother’s funeral. As it happened one of the sons was a cop, and a couple of his colleagues said they would keep an eye on his place during the funeral. They caught the burglar in the act, and I recall hearing that the burglar had fallen down the steps a couple of times.
I’d be lying if I said that I was greatly upset at the time (this was around 20 years ago incidentially). Robbing a family during their mother’s funeral is a very scummy thing to do.
Likewise as there were reports of looters during the earthquake, a few of them got arrested. And what they did was hugely offensive to most of us. A typical example of a scummy looter was Jed Wilson-Carver.
A number of people commented about how they were disappointed Mr Wilson-Carver had not fallen down any flights of steps. And to be honest on a primal level, that was pretty much my response also.
But then we had another “looter” appear in court, and it looked like indeed he had fallen down many flights of steps. He was Cornelius Arie Smith-Voorkamp. The Herald reports:
A young autistic man who became “the face of looting” in the aftermath of the Christchurch earthquake is unlikely to lay a complaint over a beating he alleges he received from the arresting officers.
Incidentially I understand he has alleged they were Australian, not NZ, police officers. But that is by the by.
Cornelius Arie Smith-Voorkamp, 25, has a mental disability that compels him to take light fixtures, and he was arrested for stealing two light bulbs and an antique light fitting from a quake-damaged home.
Now let’s be clear about this. He still broke the law, and did wrong. And in the fullness of time will be dealt with by the criminal justice system. He already has spent several days in prison. So this is not to say he is without fault or guilt.
But it seems very clear he was not someone who was in the same category as Mr Wilson-Carver. He wasn’t really a looter, seeking to inflict misery and make illegal monetary gain from the earthquake.
And so this is a good reminder about why we shouldn’t give into our primal instincts. Why punishments should be meted out by a Judge and/or jury after a trial – not by the Police or vigilantes based on what we think are the facts.
I’m still going to silently hope that certain criminals get staked out over an ant burrow and covered in honey, but I don’t want a criminal justice system based on my primal instincts – or anyone else’s.
And as much as the Police must be very tempted to hand out “bush justice” to some of the criminals they deal with, this case is a good example of why that should remain unacceptable.
UPDATE: It is worth noting that the Police are alleged to have assaulted Smith-Voorkamp, but this is disputed, and a formal complaint has not been laid. There are some inconsistencies around the allegations – originally his mother said they were Australian cops, but NZ cops arrested him. regardless my post was not aimed at the Police, it was a reflection on why we should have due process in our criminal system.
Talking of due process though, Whale Oil has a quote from a senior politician calling for looters to get court-martialed and a firing sqaud. Go check it out – you may be surprised with who the politician is.
Related posts:
- Supreme Court Justice faces Judicial Conduct Panel
- Justice Wilson’s Judicial Conduct Panel
- The Justice Hot Tub
- Give that Judge a promotion
March 10th, 2011 at 3:40 pm
A pleasant change to wholeheartedly agree with you, DPF. Well said.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 3:44 pm
if I have said it once, I have said it a million times .. why don’t the cops shoot the like of Burton “while trying to escape” .. why on earth did they shoot him in the freaking leg for goodness sake?
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 3:46 pm
Well said, DPF. Completely agree that we should be above this kind of action: although giving in to one’s instincts is understandable, it shouldn’t be excusable, especially when one is in a position of authority. That’s a good argument you’ve made for authorities always following due process. It might bring your post you wrote the other day relating to your poor Israeli friends (once more, my condolences) into a new light.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 3:48 pm
Apparently there has been worse bush justice being handed out by the citizenry.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 3:51 pm
A nice contrast to your initial knee-jerk comment on seeing his photo DPF. Well put.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 3:53 pm
Completely agree with this. I was saddened to see Judith Collins jumping on the bandwagon with the lynch mob.
jaba. That’s an easy statement to make, but have you thought that what you are actually doing is asking a police officer to kill another human. Something the police officer can not undo later and must live with for their entire life. Have a think about that and you may realise it’s not as easy to do as it is for you to blurt it out on a blog.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 3:55 pm
David, good post. In this case, I have to say this: it is entirely irrelevant that the guy Police (allegedly) hit is autistic. There is no way the Police could know this. They are not trained to diagnose medical disorders. If it is unreasonable for Police to beat up an autistic guy on committing a crime, it must be equally unreasonable to do so to a fully able individual, because Police can’t tell the difference.
And let’s be clear: it is unreasonable for Police to do this, and I fully 100% expect that the officers responsible are charged and, if found guilty, are given a clear message that they are no to behave that way in future. Police must not be allowed to violate due process like this: this opens the door to really nasty stuff – corruption, framing individuals, and so on. Process. Process. Process.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 3:58 pm
ben, I agree. We are all members of a moral society: that brings us benefits, but it also brings us responsibilities. This is but one.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:00 pm
ben: Arie’s lawyer has suggested that he will not complain – I’m not sure I agree with his decision, as it’s a matter of public safety and, as you say, due process that the Police are held to account for this, if the allegations are true. Still, I guess it’s his call.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:02 pm
jaba, you miss the point entirely. There is always the case of mistaken identity, even if the person is caught so-called red-handed. However, perhaps there are other ways. Perhaps the relatives of the victim might have a hand in sentencing. I’m not so certain about that either. I think the best idea is to change the way people are brought up, rather than arresting those who are breaking the law. the fence at the top of the cliff, rather than the ambulance at the bottom of the precipice.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:02 pm
Conditions like Autism have been pretty successfully integrated into the community, but there come these times of great tragedy, emotion and the need for the community to pull together to survive.. stuff like looting will be hit hard regardless of the Autism.
Its also a time when parents/carers have to take great care of their charges.
JC
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:03 pm
Yes but then all criminals must be loopy in some way. They don’t walk along the street saying that’s a nice wee couple with a baby and a plasma TV, I won’t rob them. They lack normal scruples, morals and empathy.
Vote:And I want cops prepared to jump in and collar low lifes, armed and dangerous or not, and I don’t really care if they don’t use kid gloves when they try to get away. There’s a line but it amazes me when these rough tough crims whine about a few clouts round the ear.
We fall too easily, sometimes, for the defence media releases of some kind of compulsion, always designed to show their client in a gentler light. An obsession for light bulbs? Spare me.
We seem to have an epidemic of autism and ADHD. No excuse in my book.
March 10th, 2011 at 4:06 pm
By the way, this is an allegation of assault by the looter. There is no natural law that says a person with a medical condition always tells the exact truth.
JC
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:08 pm
Police shouldn’t bash anyone, and people shouldn’t accept that autism is a valid excuse for theft.
Vote:This guy is not a dog, he is an intelligent human being that knows right from wrong.
March 10th, 2011 at 4:09 pm
Beab, no one’s saying that the guys should be let off without due process being followed. Instead, we’re saying he shouldn’t have been beaten up before due process was followed. Big difference!
You seem to want a strong-arm approach. What is strength without principle? Aren’t we more than just bullies?
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:09 pm
I understand he has alleged they were Australian, not NZ, police officers
The police confirmed some days ago that two New Zealand police officers were the arresting officers. Some military also appear to have been involved.
See:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10711038
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:14 pm
Good call DPF.
he is an intelligent human being that knows right from wrong.
That’s what we should expect of our police as well.
A looter or burglar takes a known risk invading the private space and property of others knowing full well the possible consequences – likewise for someone who takes justice into their own hands.
I know I’m capable of reacting with some degree of vengeance if the circumstances are provoking enough, but I know if I got caught acting unlawfully I would have to face the consequences.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:17 pm
This the sort of Police you’d like BeaB?
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8104296/cctv-shows-assaults-on-prisoners
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:18 pm
mkwilknz So you are all ‘we’ and anyone who disagrees with you is – who?
Vote:But thank you for the profound and inspiring questions for US all to ponder over as we look forward to the evening martini. I add “what is the meaning of life?”
March 10th, 2011 at 4:20 pm
So if you target what you take from defenseless homes made that way by catastrophe you’re not a looter.
I don’t buy that argument at all.
Nor have I seen details of the fight this looter put up when arrested so it seems, to me anyway DPF, you’re judging the Police officers before they’ve been investigated, let alone charged or sentenced, solely on the word of an ambulance chaser.
On the mental illness thing if the fellow wants to be part of society he must not give in to this antisocial desire to thieve – targeted as it is. If he can’t control himself he should be prevented from ever having the opportunity to acquiesce.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:22 pm
redeye It’s a bit like a pendulum -let’s swing from one mad extreme to another. Of course I am an advocate for all-out full-on brutality and the end to the rule of law. That’s exactly what I wrote above.
Vote:But I have plenty to spend my sympathy on other than wasting time worrying about thieving low-lifes.
March 10th, 2011 at 4:28 pm
“On the mental illness thing if the fellow wants to be part of society he must not give in to this antisocial desire to thieve – targeted as it is. If he can’t control himself he should be prevented from ever having the opportunity to acquiesce.”
Tinman fails to understand mental illness. Would tell someone who’s clinically depressed to get over it. And someone with tourettes to stop swearing.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:31 pm
A black eye is an easy injury to acquire by accidental means, especially during any struggle. Some people bruise with minimal applied force. My own personal speciality is running into open doors, everyone thinks my husband must be a total brute.
Point – don’t assume that the ‘victim’ must necessarily be telling the truth just because he has a bruise or two to show the world. He also has a vested interest in appearing to be a victim, and his lawyer in grandstanding.
And for the record, I think the death penalty is an abomination, not least because juries quite often get it wrong.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:33 pm
You can’t claim this guy didn’t deserve the bash but others did, that is completely irrational, it is either ok or it isn’t.
The reasons people pinch stuff is irrelevant, it is just as illegal whether you are autistic, ADHD, or gluten intolerant!!
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:35 pm
Beab, this is a debate about the values of NZ society. I am a member of that society and so are you. Others agree with my feelings about our society’s values. It is well within the bounds of logic for me to use the word, we. If you don’t wish me to use the word in that way, then I have no issue with it. I rearrange my argument:
Those of us who believe that our societal values are such that our authorities should be better than just bullies are disappointed with the actions of the police officers. We think that those officers should have followed due process and not have beaten the poor autistic bloke up!
I’ll ignore your references to the meaning of life and martinis if you ignore my comment that you should do some reading on Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia or Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge if you’re unsure what an immoral society is like. In matters of as important as the nature of society, ignorance is not an excuse.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:37 pm
decanker Tinman doesn’t want to understand mental illness.
Tinman wants to be bloody sure no bastard is going to come into my house and loot it because he has an identified mental illness.
If a person cannot control antisocial desires they should not be part of society.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:37 pm
What ever next, people with Peanut Allergies becoming exempt from the law?
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:40 pm
Tinman fails to understand mental illness. Would tell someone who’s clinically depressed to get over it. And someone with tourettes to stop swearing.
No, that is not what he is saying at all. I think he is suggesting that those with disorders that disrupt or damage society need to deal with it appropriately.
The sufferer of tourettes would not be a public speaker or a preschool teacher, and the depressed person should refrain from any position that requires rational thought until they recover.
The number of people that uses their ‘illness’ as a tool for manipulation is also on the increase thanks to a wishy washy approach to mental health.
Vote:It is not ok to treat others like shit because you are on anti depressants!!
March 10th, 2011 at 4:43 pm
It’s a public allegation by a defence lawyer. I think we are a LONG way from establishing that the claimed event happened. I think we are somewhat closer to the idea that this guy is a thief.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:47 pm
And we seem to be miles away from agreeing that even if he is a thief, if the police beat the kid up, they would be wrong to do so.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:50 pm
Before the comments on “dirty cops”, vigilante justice etc its worth noting the facts:
1) We have a person who was found on private property, stealing, following NZ worse natural disaster.
2) At some point either before, during or after his arrested he experienced a black eye
3) Since his arrest it we have learnt this person has a mental disability
That’s it.
It may be that the Police Officers have struck him in which case they should be prosecuted and removed from the Police department.
But equally it may be that the Mr Smith-Vorkamp resisted arrested and was struck during the arrest process or even the possibility the injury occurred before the police discovered Mr Smith-Vorkamp. I know however that when an person won’t even lay an official complaint and instead chooses to protest their innocence via the media I am much less likely to believe their story.
Further while DPF has attempted to associate this case to Capital Punishment there is no real comparison. Capital Punishment is simply the Justice system using the ultimate form of punishment as part of its toolbox and while you may agree/disagree with it, the risk of people being wrongly sentenced to death is no greater or less than the potential for people to be wrongly sentenced for any crime.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 4:53 pm
Yeah, the cops
Vote:neveronly beat people up in the cells.March 10th, 2011 at 4:55 pm
Man I love Aussie cops!
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 5:00 pm
It is alleged that this man was found in the company of another and carrying housebreaking tools. I believe the arrest was during the night hours. If correct, then why were these men using the cover of darkness to carry out their alleged looting, if the accused claims he was incapable of stopping himself because of his disability. If that were true, he would be operating during daylight. No, I am sure he knew what he was doing was wrong, and he was taking advantage of the disaster and the dark to help himself to other people’s property, and now he is caught redhanded, wants to blame his condition to deflect the deserved disgust the community will heap on him. We have not been told exactly how or when he came to sustain these alleged injuries yet. Hopefully, the trial will be an opportunity to establish the truth.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 5:05 pm
Over on Dim Post one of the commenters said Smith-Voorcamp was mistaken about the cops being Australian (citing a statement by their defence lawyer I think), but being sworn under NZ jurisdiction it doesn’t really make a huge difference.
But I’m glad you addressed this issue David and I agree.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 5:06 pm
Spoken like someone who really has no idea what (s)he is talking about!
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 5:09 pm
Oh cry me a fucking river. If this arsehole was looting your house I’m sure you would offer him a cup of tea and scones, Tui ad. Good on the cops, I’m sure he has a better appreciation of right and wrong now. If you wish to excuse his actions based on his mental illness then I suggest NZ will probably suffer from hundreds of cases of uncontrollable autism in years to come. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time, get over it.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 5:11 pm
My favourite Tourettes student accepted a prize from the prissy Mayoress, called her a ‘f-cking c-nt’ and spat in her face. Made a change from the usual prizegiving routine.
mjwilknz – Oh dear. Nazi Germany. Never learned much about that in my longish life, even as a history teacher. But I appreciate the lecture. And the superhuman jump from a black eye.
Now, where’s the gin?
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 5:25 pm
Not very often I agree wholehearted with you DPF, but on this occasion I do.
And on the link to Phil Goff’s appalling comments. I’m glad there don’t seem to be any moves within Labour to dump him, because the longer he stays the more votes the Greens will get.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 5:27 pm
Spoken like someone who really has no idea what (s)he is talking about!
ADHD is often a piss weak excuse that crappy parents offer those that their kid has just assaulted.
Vote:I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but it primarily exists in the imaginations of bad parents.
March 10th, 2011 at 5:28 pm
Good post DPF, couldnt agree more
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 5:29 pm
BeaB (571) Says:
March 10th, 2011 at 5:11 pm
My favourite Tourettes student accepted a prize from the prissy Mayoress, called her a ‘f-cking c-nt’ and spat in her face. Made a change from the usual prizegiving routine.
Beautiful, LMFAO…… You made me lose a mouthful of green tea BeaB…
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 5:38 pm
And I thought only upper class twits had double -barrell names.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 5:38 pm
You made me lose a mouthful of green tea BeaB
This will make it come out your nose:
Vote:
March 10th, 2011 at 5:51 pm
Tinman
“If a person cannot control antisocial desires they should not be part of society.”
Christ mate, if you locked them all up we would not have any rugby league teams in NZ.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 5:58 pm
Great comment by DPF. The difference between civilised nations and their criminal scum is the level of thought and responsibility that goes into their actions.
Frightening ignorance and thuggish attitudes by some other posters. Goes to show how thin the veneer of civilization really is.
My brother-in-law is autistic. Still lives at home at age 27, and he is unlikely to move out until his parents’ death eventually forces the issue. This is because of the utterly paralyzing terror that any form of change or uncertainty or pressure causes in him. I think I’ve seen him leave the house maybe 2 or 3 times in the last twelve months, but never for more than a couple of hours and never to stay the night anywhere else.
His other thing is a pathological fear of “germs” and uncleanliness, occasionally he has screaming fits when someone sneezes near him or when he gets the idea that something might have been handled by someone with unclean hands.
All the kind of stuff that on – paper – you might think as I initially did, could be overcome if those around him simply provided a bit of healthy pressure to excel, “man up” or “snap out of it” or “pull yourself together man”. Well yes you might think that… if you have no experience of the reality.
Lovely guy, by the way, my brother in law. Just the best uncle to his little niece. I hope he never gets punched in the head by cops. Or any other kind of thugs who don’t understand why he seems a bit odd, and don’t want to know…
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 6:17 pm
HMM, well I think I can be a hard bastard at times but the mark of a good society is how it cares for those unable to fend for themselves.
I’m rather appalled at some of the attitudes, which may be just blogging bravado, towards an intellectually handicapped person. For that’s what he is. How many of you that have spouted forth with bile would attack an obviously intellectually handicapped person??
Put your hands up so we can see who you scum are.
Autism is a strange but severely handicapping mental illness. Can create very smart people but also can produce some very strange people.
Vote:As a decent society we should look after these people. That’s our penance in life for being normal and its also one of the privileges of being a human being with compassion.
A few of you need to rethink your attitudes for some day you will get right back what you are dishing out. Karma.
March 10th, 2011 at 6:26 pm
Viking, do you know how we established that this guy is even autistic? How do you know he is not just feigning the whole deal, or using a mild form of it for dishonest gain?
Vote:If the info only came from him, I want a second opinion, I would think someone that does such things is worse than any comments you will read here.
People feign mental illness all to often to get out of all sorts of consequences for their actions, time to call their bluff out of respect for those that are genuinely ill.
March 10th, 2011 at 6:38 pm
It seems that the DPF supporters in this blog are full of hindsight morals and applying revisonist history views aleady.
Austistic does not mean dumb. Looting has to be dealt with firmly and promptly. A message was sent and during a time of crisis. The message showing a looter had fallen down some stairs. It looks as though it worked.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 6:42 pm
Mental Health and Autism is my area of expertise. Too often some diagnosis is used to medicalise unacceptable behaviour. eg. Pleas of mitigation from some lawyer will often be “the defendent is of low iQ, with a low tolerance for stress, poor coping skills, and has alcohol problems – your honour” which is a medicalised version that this is “an ignorant idiot, intolerant, who thumps rather than communicate, whilst drunk.
Vote:Well I remember, thirty years, in the psychiatric hospital, when the male clients would shag any mentally unwell new female client. It was just part of the scene. Until the day one was charged with that ( a mentally unwell woman is illegal to shag or rape) A game changer. he went off from the hospital to jail for six months.
Boy oh boy. Did those male psychiatric clients shape up. Yes. The behaviours stopped dead.
As for this Autistic looter. the best treatment that society can give him is to have ordinary expectations of him in terms of behaviour.
March 10th, 2011 at 7:16 pm
It is discrimatory against people of disability and mental illness to assume they are all incapable of any social responsibility at all times.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 7:21 pm
No need to apologise DPF.
If you can’t bring yourself to apply natural justice to the scumbags I’m happy enough to take up the slack on your behalf.
ps: Didn’t Judith do well?
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 7:56 pm
Those f@$kin pigs should be strung up for what they did to that retard!!!
(that should offend everybody)
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 7:57 pm
Shunda, from right early in the piece his family pointed out that he was Autistic. Keep up.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 7:59 pm
I am sure all the posters who extoll the Police beating up suspects would be more than happy to take such a beating themselves. Say if they were wrongly identified. Because arguing for that kind of justice is arguing for no safeguards to protect the innocent. If it is good enough for one suspect, who has not been found guilty of anything (mental illnesses irrelevant) it is good enough for any suspect.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 7:59 pm
Shunda:
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 8:01 pm
You have obviously never been a policeman Teddy.
NO ONE IS INNOCENT. THEY JUST HAVEN”T BEEN CAUGHT YET.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 8:02 pm
Let’s look beyond the headline into the mindset of the police responsible, who are by no means atypical in my experience.
The officers who “assisted the fall” of first offender DPF mentions – the scumbag who stole from the dead woman’s house during her funeral – can be understood on the basis that that truly is what criminals would call “a dog act” – the lowest of the low. Their outrage was understandable, even if it didn’t excuse their actions.
But even if we leave aside the fact that Smith-Voorkamp is autistic, he stole two lightbulbs and a light fitting. How could this produce uncontrollable rage and disgust in a normal, balanced person such that they’d lose control and resort to violence?
Of course it wouldn’t. Which leaves two possibilities – the police officers have anger management issues which make them unsuitable for their roles; or the police officers are sadists, which makes them unsuitable for their roles.
While this isn’t true of the majority of officers it is true of a considerable percentage. As I said, this sort of behaviour is not unusual – it’s just less blatant (the use of tasers to force compliance rather than to protect officers and the public, for instance).
Rather than smugly making “nudge nudge, wink wink” comments condoning prison rape, Judith Collins should be setting up an Independent Anti Corruption Commission as exists in most Australian states. People would be amazed what comes out of the woodwork when people aren’t forced to complain to the police themselves and then to the toothless and compromised PCA.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 8:02 pm
I think I just had a psychotic break Johnboy
AND IT FELLS GOOOOOOOOOOD
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 8:09 pm
Told you so Teddy.
See Rex was caught and now he gives a serious impression of a guilty man despite the fact he was innocent.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 8:10 pm
mudrunner says:
Ah yes, equality. We must all be treated the same, no matter what our advantages or disadvantages. Funny how righties only ever stand for equality when it means a disadvantaged person gets a beating, while lefties only ever stand for it when it means a hard-working person gets stripped of their wealth.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 8:12 pm
Shunda, from right early in the piece his family pointed out that he was Autistic.
Yeah!!
The Filth should absolutely never EVER bash these retards! mong bonging is not O f@#king K!!
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 8:14 pm
One thing is for sure, the namby pamby soft on crime justice system that currently prevails is not improving the situation here in any way. The criminals do not fear it enough.
When serious criminals are fined, they don’t pay. When they are jailed, they just cost money. The jails are full so they are let off with less than half the penalty than that which they were originally sentenced to. Not exactly a substantive deterrent for a hardened criminal.
There are other options of course, and one is to give them a good hiding, just like in Singapore. Such punishment should be mandatory for certain crimes. The Singaporean crime statistics bear witness to the fact that this is a quick, cheap and effective deterrent, and when it comes to dealing out justice, nothing else matters. I defy anyone to show me a native Singaporean with over 100 convictions on his rap sheet.
Bill.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 8:15 pm
Psychotic breaks get much more amusing the longer they last.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 8:17 pm
“I defy anyone to show me a native Singaporean with over 100 convictions on his rap sheet.”
Good point.
I believe you tend to die when you have lost approx half the skin on your body from say a hundred good floggings.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 8:18 pm
Are you on the piss Shunda?
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 8:21 pm
Are you on the piss Shunda?
No I am not a wine bibber!!
Vote:How very dare you!
March 10th, 2011 at 8:28 pm
“Are you on the piss Shunda?
I am.
I ran out of tonic and its far to far far far away to go downstairs to the grog fridge so I have sidelined the Bombay and got out the Grouse as I have a drop of ginger in the upstairs fridge.
Hic. Cheers boys.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 8:29 pm
Well just wondered what gave you all the Dutch courage to rant out of character.
For a fella that’s scared of a female weta there has to be something.
http://shundamumble.blogspot.com/
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 8:35 pm
You weren’t there Viking!
That thing was friggin huge, just like on that stoopid monkey movie by uncle Jackson!!
Johnboy,
Vote:Ima join ya bro, booze can only make my mental issues more fun.
March 10th, 2011 at 8:41 pm
Fuck that Weta is just a baby.
If I hadn’t clenched my arsehole and run like woman I could have sent you a photo of the Neil Forks shithouse spider.
It took me two days to get the urge again, carrying a rifle and only in daylight I might add.
It was 120mm round the legs I kid you not.
I now know what the phrase “Scared shitless” really means.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 8:42 pm
Collected weta s when I was a kid. Used to find them when spending mu weekends prunning pine trees. Wrapped them in a rag, put them in my pocket and delivered them to high school for biology lessons. 6 pence each.
Vote:Seen some big ones but never one that I was frightened off. SOOKY Bubbie. .
March 10th, 2011 at 8:47 pm
Yeh Johnboy we had some like that in the long drop. Ate the field mice that were brave enough to venture into the shelter.
Up in the Solomons saw cockroaches bigger than mice. Could just about put a collar and chain on them suckers.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 8:49 pm
Rex>Which leaves two possibilities – the police officers have anger management issues which make them unsuitable for their roles; or the police officers are sadists, which makes them unsuitable for their roles.
Or at least one other possibility: The light bulb thief ran, was taken down in a tackle, and dinged his face on some rubble.
I wouldn’t want to draw any conclusions without hearing both sides of the story. The thief’s side seems to change from day to day… one minute the police are locals, the next they’re Aussies.
I followed a link to Public Address. It isn’t something I do often, because every thread I’ve ever followed there has included at least one commenter who says “I looked at something at KiwiBlog and you wouldn’t believe how primitive they all are”. At which point several others chime in to say they either: a) Would never consider visiting KiwiBlog; b) Visited KiwiBlog once and it made them want to vomit; or c) Think that DPF is a reasonable guy but the commentators at KiwiBlog are monkeys.
But anyway, it is mob rule at Public Address. Aussie cops to blame?… Cue dozens of comments telling us what basic violent people Aussies are. Kiwi cops to blame?… They must be prosecuted to the maximum extent of the law without knowing the full story behind the black eye. Judith Collins?… Frothy mouthed abuse based on an ambiguous comment that they have chosen to interpret as meaning rape. Phil Goff inciting people by referring to summary executions?… Not a mention. Also not mentioned is that the sort of reactionary mob behaviour represented by the Public Address thread is the sort of reactionary behaviour they’re pretending to condemn. It’s an irony free zone for lefties.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 8:52 pm
If I hadn’t clenched my arsehole and run like woman I could have sent you a photo of the Neil Forks shithouse spider.
Mine is still clenched!
The Neil Forks Shithouse Spider? that really just rolls off the tongue! could call it NFSS for short. “hey Johnson, ya wouldn’t believe the size of a NFSS I just saw”
What species was it? Shelob? no wonder Frodo got gang raped by those orcs!
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 8:57 pm
It was one of those big grey and black ringed hunting spiders that can run like buggery V2. You see them quite often around the place but this bugger was huge.
I read once that spiders just keep on growing and if they live long enough can get quite huge but this sod was bigger than any I have ever seen before.
I was sitting on the bog about 8pm and flashed the torch around the place when I spotted this huge beast right up above me on the ceiling.
Needless to say I fucked off.
They say that bush shithouse’s are only there to attract the flies so you can have a crap elsewhere but no one mentioned the bloody spiders that come to scoff the flies.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 9:01 pm
” I defy anyone to show me a native Singaporean with over 100 convictions on his rap sheet.”
Bloody hell!….I love that line.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 9:01 pm
Well said DPF, nice to read something so thoughtful and balanced.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 9:05 pm
Feeling sorry for this bloke because he is autistic is a load of namby pamby bullshit.
Let’s accept that he does have a predilection to taking light fittings.
However, he still had to have the mental fortitude to realise that there were houses about the place, that they had been abandoned and that they were unlocked or able to be entered.
Not to mention, in this time of stress and uncertainty, where the hell was the supervision of a known disturbed person?
It’s all namby pamby bullshit to get the guy off a charge he well deserves.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 9:09 pm
Illinois has just rejected the death penalty. Since 1974, 20 prisoners on death row in the state have been proven innocent.
Well said David.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 9:22 pm
big bruv (8,726) Says:
March 10th, 2011 at 5:51 pm
Tinman
“If a person cannot control antisocial desires they should not be part of society.”
Christ mate, if you locked them all up we would not have any rugby league teams in NZ.
A win-win result.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 9:26 pm
Who would the Mad Butcher give all his spare money to then Tinnie?
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 9:28 pm
davidp:
Pinching a couple of lightbulbs is so serious an offence that it requires police give chase and execute a tackle on ground rough enough to injure the fleeing “thief” and possibly themselves? You’re right, there is a third possibility – too much testosterone and too much TV. This isn’t Baltimore, you’re not on “The Wire”, and the weird looking guy running off with a lightbulb in each hand isn’t carrying a machine gun.
rouppe:
Excellent point. I’d imagine there’s none at the best of times and he hasn’t run into trouble before due to lack of opportunity to do so. Political correctness dictates we must treat everyone as equal when some are clearly not. People like this need help, yet in the name of equality it is denied them.
And you were doing so well with your earlier paragraph… he stole a couple of light bulbs FFS, because he has a disorder that makes him obsessed with them. That doesn’t make him deserving of anything other than being warned off by the cops, and supervision, as you’ve suggested above, to make sure he keeps out of trouble.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 9:35 pm
Pinching a couple of lightbulbs is so serious an offence that it requires police give chase and execute a tackle on ground rough enough to injure the fleeing “thief” and possibly themselves? You’re right, there is a third possibility – too much testosterone and too much TV.
Oh please Rex, the guy was in someone else’s house pinching something, how the hell were the cops supposed to know he was after light bulbs, especially if he ran?
Vote:And in any case, he knew it was wrong and he did it anyway.
March 10th, 2011 at 9:38 pm
Who would the Mad Butcher give all his spare money to then Tinnie?
Mountain biking clubs:
Vote:
March 10th, 2011 at 9:38 pm
Rex>Pinching a couple of lightbulbs is so serious an offence that it requires police give chase and execute a tackle on ground rough enough to injure the fleeing “thief” and possibly themselves?
What are you proposing?:
1. Police let all looters run off unmolested on the basis that they might have just stolen light bulbs and you don’t want to risk injury actually finding out what they do have in their gym bag?
2. Police set up hides similar to the ones the BBC use to film tigers or grizzly bears and then spend days observing potential looting sites so they can determine what is being stolen and therefore make an educated decision on whether to arrest looters or just let them get on with it?
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 9:43 pm
Seems to have cured the prostate problem Shunda.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 9:44 pm
Mad!!
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 9:44 pm
What is it about the distinction between this guy and someone like Carver don’t some people understand.
What I’d expect the police and old grannies with umbrellas to do and all of us quite frankly if we ever meet him, is to beat the fuck out of people like Carver and leave the other guys like him alone.
Why is that hard to understand.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 9:47 pm
my son has autism, he’s 3 so he has constanr supervision. He can say a few words, understand everything, knows whats right and wrong. Looking at him he looks ‘normal’. However he is obsessed with rubbish. It has a place and that place is in the bin. We try and tell him to not worry about it but he gets very agitated about it being around. I could just imagine him in a situation where there is rubbish everywhere, houses ‘wrong’ he would want to go there and collect everything to put it away. I understand how he feels and I know what he would do if he continues with his obsessions into adult life. I dearly hope some of the people here are not around if he is ever in this situation, I also hope its just internet courage.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 9:48 pm
Does the law make a distinction for why people pinch shit Reid?
So why the f@ck do you?
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 9:49 pm
“Police set up hides similar to the ones the BBC use ”
Good thinking dp! They could get this guy to man the hide.
Vote:
March 10th, 2011 at 9:54 pm
jackyran, your son will be fine. Autism doesn’t have to cripple your son forever and it can be managed very well in adulthood with the help of loving parents. The worst thing you could do is shelter him from the world, the human mind has ways of coping and adjusting, and your son could even be abnormally brilliant in some areas.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 10:00 pm
Does the law make a distinction for why people pinch shit Reid?
Yes it does, it’s called plea in mitigation. In other words, it’s not whether you’re guilty, it’s why you did it.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 10:08 pm
No shit!!
Vote:Well I never.
March 10th, 2011 at 10:16 pm
Shunda, we are not sheltering him by any means. He goes to playcenter 3 days a week, swiming lessons and everywhere with us. But people expect certain behaviour from a child who looks 4-5 years old, he is a big boy. Things are always changing, all of a sudden this month he has become terrified or random people, mainly girls his own age. I have to pick him up and he burries his head in my shoulder. Then next minute he is fine. No reason that I can see, but for him there must be something going on. I’m not saying he is not bright, but he does not see the world the same way I do or anyone else even others with autism.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 10:17 pm
reid:
But you forget… in the world of people like Shunda, big bruv etc., you don’t need to have courts. You just have uncorruptible police officers carrying out summary executions based solely on the crime and not the antecedents, motivation, mental health or any other aspect of the accused. Because of course all criminals are automatically “scum”.
Kinda like the law and order they practice in… ummm… communist countries. But don’t tell them that, it’ll upset their world view.
davidp:
Well given that the guys’ sister has confirmed that he has accused police of assaulting him, I’m proposing:
1. The police stop assaulting people, and
2. When they do, we don’t get a whitewash we get an investigation and, if found guilty, punishment.
From the Herald story DPF has linked to:
Surprise, surprise. Clearly no desire to investigate so as to ensure the integrity of the police *cough*.
But leaving aside this particular case I am arguing that yes, chasing and tackling a “looter” over ground so rough that a fall could cause that level of injury, decribed by Chris Trotter thus:
is causing a disproportionate risk of serious injury to everyone involved (including the officers) for a minor offence. Unless of course they didn’t, they’re lying, no one fell over and they just beat the crap out of him while soldiers looked on and taunted. But of course we don’t want to believe that, so let’s keep constructing hypothetical “what ifs” rather than acknolwdge a particularly nasty little bit of police brutality.
PS thanks for the heads up re Public Address. I’ve now lambasted Goff over there as well as on The Standard (where lefties are so far in full agreement).
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 10:21 pm
But you forget… in the world of people like Shunda, big bruv etc., you don’t need to have courts.
You don’t know anything about people like me Rex.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 10:31 pm
I don’t claim to know the complete you, Shunda, just your attitude to law and order issues as expressed on Kiwiblog. I wouldn’t extrapolate that out as indicative of anything other than what it appears to be, which is a hard line and unbending attitude on that particular issue, which seems rooted in a belief that everyone who commits an offence can and should be viewed through the one lens: that of “criminal”.
For instance you say, with regard to this particular offender:
I have no idea where on the spectrum of autism disorders this young fellow fits. But I do know that people on that spectrum see things completely differently to you or I, in ways I don’t pretend to understand. To say he “knew it was wrong” displays a complete lack of regard for his particular circumstances and assumes he’s “a criminal” because “criminals do stuff they know to be wrong”.
Your incorrect observation about the law’s response has already been covered by reid. Based on those and a history of similar comments I drew a conclusion as to your views on justice. Care to show me a previous comment that proves me wrong?
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 10:34 pm
Rex>Well given that the guys’ sister has confirmed that he has accused police of assaulting him
What does the sister say about the circumstances of the alleged assault? Was he fleeing? Did he resist arrest violently? A bit of context would be useful.
I’m asking because I don’t believe police assault compliant criminals regularly in NZ. If they did then I hope the media would highlight it and they haven’t as far as I can see. None of the other looters featured in the press seemed to be injured. So did the NZ police (assuming we believe the version that didn’t involve Australians) just randomly single out one person for torture? Why him and not others? Why now and not in previous cases? Was there something special about this case, or are suspected criminals routinely beaten and hospitalised in NZ and I’ve never noticed?
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 10:36 pm
Where do you live Rex? I’m betting a nice spot, at least middle class in some pleasant neighbourhood or lifestyle block somewhere.
Vote:According to stats DPF posts about blog followers, most people here would fit into that category.
I don’t.
I live in a place that many here couldn’t bare to live in, I see every fucking day the shit that you think you are so damned expert on.
I am at the coal face, I see and deal with dysfunctional people and live amongst them, some are ok underneath, some are just fucking evil.
Don’t presume that you know a damned thing about me and my experience, I care about people, I try to help them, but sometimes the kind thing to do is let them bare the consequences for their actions, it can save their life and if it doesn’t it might just save someone else’s.
March 10th, 2011 at 10:47 pm
davidp:
Wrong, at least according to DPF, who initially posted in response to a comment that said “I’m very disappointed in the NZ Police. He doesn’t look injured at all.” this rejoinder:
Then that disappeared (Wonder if this reminder of it will suffer a similar fate?).
That’s two in the last few days, in just one city that we know about. I’d say that’s getting pretty close to “regular” wouldn’t you? Or how many do you need? One a day? Two a week?
Ever heard the saying “If it bleeds it leads”? The media, especially TV, rely on the police for tipoffs which lead to some spectacular visuals. Annoy them and that dries up. I’ve been assigned a police beat in Auckland… it wouldn’t suprise you to know I lasted about three months.
The media have not asked questions about this case and indeed were complicit in the “perp walk” that allowed them to get pictures of the injuries, the subtext being “watch it looters, or you’ll be next”.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 10:55 pm
Shunda:
I grew up in Wainuiomata and lived there most of my life till recently. So no, not a pleasant neighbourhood (though not nearly as bad as rumour paints it). I’ve been robbed, burgled (several times), beaten both severly and mildly, had stuff stolen from my car and not just in Wainui, in fact only one beating happened there.
I’ve lived in South Auckland. Till recently I lived in a fairly rough suburb here in WA, known for being populated by drug dealers and beneficiaries. I’ve never been wealthy, Shunda, so like all poor people I’ve never had choices.
So do I. I go into prisons, and work with prisoners, every week. I speak with murderers and armed robbers, even a multiple murderer, as well as plenty convicted of “lesser” crimes. I’ve been sent to jail for something I didn’t do. I’ve spent many an hour in the police lockup (which is the only place on earth that makes jail look like a good option).
Yes there’s some evil people out there. Most aren’t… they’re stupid, drug addicted, mentally subnormal, traumatised… all sorts of things, but not evil. So I start from the supposition that a person isn’t evil, until proven otherwise. And I’m usually right.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 11:02 pm
Sorry Rex, I may have jumped the gun.
Vote:You must understand that as a father I am primarily concerned for my children, and sometimes it is hard to look for the good in people when they seem so damned dangerous.
I actually like people Rex, but sometimes it is bloody hard to maintain a positive attitude.
March 10th, 2011 at 11:06 pm
I certainly agree with you when it comes to vigilantism, however it’s a rather long bow to draw to equate it with the death penalty. I don’t think anyone would seriously support the death penalty being carried out without due process.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 11:10 pm
“I grew up in Wainuiomata and lived there most of my life till recently. So no, not a pleasant neighbourhood ”
It’s not all bad Rex since we got our bloke Ray to run the whole of Lower Hutt.
All we have to do now is sack the scumbag Mallard and Wainui will take on a whole new personality.
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 11:26 pm
Shunda:
That really gives me the s**ts, when I hear a decent person express that sort of sentiment, because it’s based on spin and distortion. Most people aren’t dangerous. Sure they’re not angels – they cut in front of you on the motorway, they take 50 items through the “10 items or less” checkout, they might not return your wallet if they found it. But there isn’t a murderer lurking in every backyard or a pedophile behind every tree.
When people kill, they usually murder someone they know. Weatherstone is the rule, Burton the exception. And there were, statistically speaking, just as many pedophiles in the community as there were when you and I ran all over the place as kids. Now, the media causes us to lock them away “safely” where they play violent video games and eat crap, then tells us we’re bad parents because our kids are obese, game-obsessed slobs.
I’m a father too. We need to be careful… but we need to remember our parents were careful too. They didn’t deliberately send us into dangerous situations but they weren’t convinced by TV news bulletins that every knock on the door is a rapist and everyone taking a photo of their kid playing sport is a kiddy porn trader. As a result, we had better lives than our kids.
Johnboy:
Ray is a top bloke. Tell him I said hi, congratulations, and about bloody time he got to run the place after the drongos it’s had to endure.
But Trev’s not a bad bloke either. You’d like him. I’ll happily admit to voting for him, though not his party. In fact I didn’t want to stand in his seat in 1996 in case I did what I did in 1993… took just enough votes off the incumbent to let in a disaster (Dianne Yates in ’93… yes, it’s me you can thank).
Vote:March 10th, 2011 at 11:38 pm
That really gives me the s**ts, when I hear a decent person express that sort of sentiment, because it’s based on spin and distortion. Most people aren’t dangerous.
Two weeks ago, a young woman who presumed I was the enemy because she saw me talking to a neighbour of 10 years (which she fell out with) aimed her car at my children, accelerated hard and swerved at them.
Vote:I had to involve the police who were unable to prosecute on a technicality.
My kids can not leave the gate because she continues to speed and intimidate.
She has lived here for 3 weeks, I have lived here for 12 years.
You are off the mark thinking my actions are based on “spin and distortion” they are based on the laws of physics and and a love for my kids.
Some people are just f@cked in the head Rex.
March 10th, 2011 at 11:54 pm
“A technicality”?!
What sort of “technicality” prevents prosecution of a person for (off the top of my head) reckless driving or endangerment?? (those might not be applicable to NZ precisely, as I’ve had to erase a lot of NZ law to make room in my head for WA law).
If I were you I’d make a complaint to a higherup. Usually an Inspector is in charge of a district. If it’s a matter of evidence, a video camera proves useful, in my experience.
She certainly is one of the bad ones… though I’d also suspect one of the mad ones, given she’s so screwed up as to threaten children.
I’ve worked with a similar situation… a friend’s neighbour, always hyped on speed, screaming in the street, yelling threats, attacking people. But he was the exception… everyone else in the cul-de-sac wanted him out (he was a state housing tenant, they refused to evict, but threatened to evict another person for erecting a fence they hadn’t approved – a fence to keep the maniac out!).
The spin the media put on things is to do a story on a person like him (or your example) and imply they’re typical. They’re not… most people are like you, me, or anyone else who comments here. Slightly mental, but in a good way
Vote:March 11th, 2011 at 12:02 am
but they weren’t convinced by TV news bulletins that every knock on the door is a rapist and everyone taking a photo of their kid playing sport is a kiddy porn trader.
To me Rex, somehow, people are less responsible than they used to be.
Between say 1850-1950, you saw a huge social more which began to be broken down in the 1960′s.
Remnants of that remain and long may they but we have had generations which have known nothing but consumerism(*), advertising and social engineering promoting the self which have done nothing but attack those values.
What can one expect?
(*) sold under the guise of capitalism
Vote:March 11th, 2011 at 1:06 am
Any person that we entrust to enforce the law must be the first person to obey the law. Having a badge does not give you the right to dish out ‘summary justice’. Police violence at time of arrest does happen; not all the time, but often enough so as not to be rare. No defence lawyer will raise it, especially publically, unless he/she thinks they have pretty good evidence of it (the rules of professional conduct forbid us doing so without a proper evidential foundation). No complaint being made is very common due to the defence lawyers having no confidence in the so-called Independent Police complaints process.
I don’t know what happened here, but to call ourselves civilised we must allow due process even, in fact especially, to those we think are the lowest of the low.
The
Vote:March 11th, 2011 at 1:07 am
reid:
As the young are wont to say nowadays, true dat.
FE Smith:
Also true. But when it comes to some on the right, the old Animal Farm adage about some being more equal than others seems to apply to anyone in authority, alas.
Vote:March 11th, 2011 at 7:00 am
Rex
When your sister turns up in hospital beaten black and blue by her partner who is an alcoholic and was drunk at the time, is that going to be OK too because he has a sickness? No? Probably because “that is different”, right?
And so where does it stop? “The drink made me do it”. “I was high on P so it’s not my fault”. “I have ‘not wanting to work syndrome’ ” perhaps….? That slope is too slippery.
The guy got a tune up while committing a crime FFS. It’s not the end of the world
Vote:March 11th, 2011 at 8:51 am
Beab, if you’re still reading this thread, sorry I was tied up last night and am only just now replying to you. If you’re history teacher, perhaps you’re not anti-intellectual. Perhaps you are, however, the sort who gets in a huff when someone argues against them. If you want to argue that our society shouldn’t need to be better than bullies, please be my guest. But put your mits up and fight your corner. You might do yourself a favour and drop the references to gin and martinis, though. They discredit you.
Vote:March 11th, 2011 at 9:25 am
Gosh discredited by a martini. Too easy.
Vote:March 11th, 2011 at 9:35 am
Nice comeback, Beab. I hope your students see or saw better arguing than you’ve shown here.
Vote:March 11th, 2011 at 9:57 am
Well said DPF.
Vote:March 11th, 2011 at 10:03 am
mjwilknz Here it is then. I just can’t be bothered engaging with your jejune style of argument.
Vote:March 11th, 2011 at 10:25 am
Beab, can’t be bothered, huh? Feel free, then, to leave debates on societal values to those who can be bothered. You may yourself look jejune if you do so, but, given how little engaged you’ve been so far, perhaps that won’t be any sort of change.
Vote:March 11th, 2011 at 2:01 pm
rouppe:
So you set up a strawman, predict my reaction to it, then call me on hypocrisy based on your fantasy. You fail.
I don’t have a sister but I do have a close female family member beaten by her partner. I’d like to mete out a bit of my own “justice”. Of course I would – it’s only natural. I could easily have done so, via a phone call back home to a few people I know. I didn’t.
There’s a difference between “I want this bastard prosecuted to the full extent of the law” and “it’s OK because he has a sickness”.
There’s also a difference between “I want this bastard prosecuted to the full extent of the law” and “I want uniformed thugs to be free to beat anyone they think is guilty of a crime”.
Feel free to rejoin the debate when you’ve worked that out.
Vote:March 11th, 2011 at 7:46 pm
What sort of “technicality” prevents prosecution of a person for (off the top of my head) reckless driving or endangerment??
There were 2 people in the car, the car belonged to the woman’s friend, one of the kids said she was driving and the other said the owner was driving, my wife couldn’t be sure which it was from her vantage point.
Vote:March 11th, 2011 at 10:38 pm
Shunda:
Ah, a bit of good old fashioned perjury (and a reluctance to do so by your wife). That explains it. Ta.
If it keeps up, I do suggest a video camera.
Vote:March 12th, 2011 at 12:54 am
That’s how I see it Rex, camera is ready and waiting, looks like cyps might be getting involved with her kids (not because of us).
Vote:With a bit of luck she will get the help she needs to become a bit more stable.
March 14th, 2011 at 10:32 am
Feeling sorry for this bloke because he is autistic is a load of namby pamby bullshit.
Let’s accept that he does have a predilection to taking light fittings.
However, he still had to have the mental fortitude to realise that there were houses about the place, that they had been abandoned and that they were unlocked or able to be entered.
I realise this thread is a bit old now, but this might be useful.
The building Arie Smith entered was not a house. It was an old shop near his flat that had been damaged beyond repair in the September quake and was awaiting demolition. He too two old incandescent bulbs and a fitting. He seems to have a very strong interest in light bulbs, but in the past has asked permission to take them from similar sites.
So it’s hardly a textbook case of looting. Nonetheless, his foster family has consistently said he must face the consequences of his actions.
I don’t think those consequences should include weeks on remand without bail, a disgraceful “perp walk” for the news media and (let’s face it) a beating.
Vote:March 18th, 2011 at 1:22 am
It is so good to see so many people go to such lengths to determine ALL the facts about the Arie Smith case that can be currently gleaned from sources.
It is still more good that a judge, with the assistance of two lawyers, and perhaps a probation or psychiatric report, will take into consideration still more facts. That will happen soon enough.
What Michael Laws did is proceed with neither.
Arie really is a very nice generous decent chap, without a history of burglary, but with a history of kindly asking for permission before salvaging light fixtures etc. He’d like to be an electrician if the silly rules would allow him, and the course was suitable. I.e. not bashed, hated, raped, vilified, etc. And he’d like to have his old life back too.
Vote: