O’Connor attacks labour list domination by gays and unionists

April 11th, 2011 at 10:00 am by David Farrar

Vernon Small at the Dom Post reports:

A MP says the party’s new list is dominated by “self-serving unionists and a gaggle of gays”.

The party was the target of a bitter broadside from list MP Damien O’Connor, who opted not to go on the list, which he said was dominated by unionists and a gaggle of gays.

A gaggle of gays? Pretty insulting to his caucus colleagues.

Labour leader Phil Goff said he had “scolded” Mr O’Connor about the comments, which the MP had told him about, “although … it will probably help him no end on the Coast. He’s a pretty straight talker and he used West Coast language.”

I wonder what Robertson and Chauvel think of Goff saying that is “west coast language” which will help O’Connor “no end” on the coast.

O’Connor could have made the point that straight white males struggle to get good list rankings, due to the identity politics in Labour, without labelling people as a “gaggle of gays”.

O’Connor said he stood aside because he did not trust the process. “Frankly, I didn’t trust the system to give a straight-shooter a fair deal … It is dominated by self-serving unionists and a gaggle of gays.” …

“It does not truly represent the rank-and-file members and delivers a list that is not truly representative of those who vote Labour.”

So let us look at the effective list for Labour, and see if the substance of Damien’s comments are accurate. How many non-union straight European males (such as Damien) have list spots? In the top 15 effective spots, there is only one – David Parker. In the top 30 effective spots, there are only two – Parker and Nash.

So Damien has a legitimate gripe, but the way he has gone about expressing it does him little credit.

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216 Responses to “O’Connor attacks labour list domination by gays and unionists”

  1. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    Damien expreeses himself as a real west-coaster (well, a stereotypical one) would. There will be a lot of staunch Labour people who will share that view.

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  2. cabbage (455 comments) says:

    TBH, I’m not convinced i really understand why the comment ‘A Gaggle of Gays’ is supposedly redneck and insulting?

    If indeed there is a reasonable sized group of homosexuals on the list, then ‘a gaggle of gays’ would be entirely accurate. Is it insulting now to call a homosexual man a gay man? I would have thought that if the intention was to insult, then he could have used to real coast language and spoken about that bloody bunch of poofters.

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  3. Ed Snack (1,874 comments) says:

    One of the iron rules of politics: never say what you really feel and mean. Of course he could have expressed it more “delicately”, but Damien needs to learn that the greatest gift a politician can have is sincerity, if he could successfully fake that he’s got it made.

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  4. andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    So Damien has a legitimate gripe, but the way he has gone about expressing it does him little credit.

    Yep those in the sheltered confines of the beltway will work themselves into a lather over this I’m sure.

    But in the real world where people are laboring in the fields and workshops earning their livings by honest toil what the man has said makes a lot of sense and the snifffing of the Wellington glitterati is just another sign of how effette and out of touch they are with the real world.

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  5. Mark (1,488 comments) says:

    The reality is O’Connor has a point but is an arse in the way he made it. Labour has lost touch with its constituency and opened the door for Key to exploit that, which he is managing to do very well. Goff has been incipid as the leader and weak leadership boils over in frustration and disunity as we are likely to see from labour in the run up to the election.

    Little and O’Connor in an election strategy meeting will make for interesting banter. Sadly this does not necessariy make it a lot easier for National and my fear is that it creates the void for Winstion to exploit. Labour falling apart or shifting too far to the left runs the risk of injecting life into the thus far dead carcase that is NZ First. Bloody scary thought that.

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  6. GJ (329 comments) says:

    Good on Damien, just say it as it is and get rid of all this PC gabbage. People can understand what you mean. Very refreshing and I totally agree with him.

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  7. big bruv (13,906 comments) says:

    I disagree DPF, IMHO O’Connor has done nothing wrong at all in the way he expressed his feelings.

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  8. rouppe (971 comments) says:

    As I said on the General Debate, I can’t see an issue with what Damien said.

    If he had said “self serving men and a gaggle of women” would there be outrage? No. Certainly not to this degree.

    This country is going to hell in a handbasket because a minority gets uppity whenever someone ‘not of their kind’ makes a comment about them, and the so-called leaders of this country kow-tow to it.

    It seems only Maori may comment about Maori, only Muslims may comment about Islam, only gays may comment about gays and only women may comment about women. Interestingly anyone seems to be able to say anything about middle-class white men, Christians, and rich pricks

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  9. cabbage (455 comments) says:

    It seems only Maori may comment about Maori, only Muslims may comment about Islam, only gays may comment about gays and only women may comment about women. Interestingly anyone seems to be able to say anything about middle-class white men, Christians, and rich pricks

    Well said that man.

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  10. Bevan (3,924 comments) says:

    In the top 15 effective spots, there is only one – David Parker.

    Parker’s not gay? Your kidding me!

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  11. calendar girl (1,239 comments) says:

    No doubt about it, O’Connor has gone too far this time. Categorising people as “self-serving unionists” is just not acceptable!

    But expecting West Coasters to understand terms like “identity politics in Labour”? I wouldn’t have a clue myself before you kindly used it as a sanitising euphemism for another O’Connor expression.

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  12. scrubone (3,099 comments) says:

    In the top 15 effective spots, there is only one – David Parker.

    A guy who had to resign his portfolios and was only returned after the media agreed to pretended he’d been cleared.

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  13. Gwilly (158 comments) says:

    At least he is speaking his mind, but he’s not saying anything that we didn’t already know, so what’s the fuss?

    Seems like a decent enough bloke.

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  14. TripeWryter (716 comments) says:

    The thing is, Damien O’Connor speaks for a good many people — and not just on the West Coast — who feel that the middle-class party that Labour is now doesn’t speak for them any more.

    Wellington ‘insiders’ have a completely different view from people out in the provinces.

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  15. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,752 comments) says:

    Bevan says at 10:30 am

    Parker’s not gay?

    Well if he looks like a queer, sounds like a queer?

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  16. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    Here’s Green MP Kevin Hague, who is gay, on living on the on the West Coast:

    “People do say, `What is it like being gay on the West Coast?’ Well, actually it is the same as being gay anywhere else but we don’t have the same nightclubs,” Hague said.

    “My partner and I have been on the coast for eight-and-a-half years now and have not had one incidence of prejudice or discrimination. People accept that people are different, we are all in this community together and we have to get on and get over difference.”

    Seems that Goff will have just pissed off a whole lot of Coasters by labeling them bigots.

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  17. smttc (752 comments) says:

    He knew he was going to get a rubbish place on the list and so is having a chat with his electorate constituency in an effort to get re-elected in November. He has to have that wee chat now or else it will lose all its effect.

    Lousy timing though. On a day when the headlines should have been about Bill English’s poorly articulated reason for why lower wages is part of the story which makes NZ more competitive than Australia, O’Connor grabs the headlines over Labour’s list.

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  18. bearhunter (853 comments) says:

    I fail to see where any outrage is needed. Clearly there is a “rainbow” element in the party and a union element, both of whom O’Connor thinks are acting against him or don’t favour him. How anyone could get annoyed at calling gays gays I don’t know. Perhaps the word they object to is gaggle:

    –verb (used without object)
    1.
    to cackle.
    –noun
    2.
    a flock of geese when not flying. Compare skein.
    3.
    an often noisy or disorderly group or gathering: a politician followed by a gaggle of supporters.
    4.
    an assortment of related things.

    I still don’t see anything remotely wrong with what he said.

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  19. trout (939 comments) says:

    Damien also pointed out that list members should get out more; that they lose touch with the provinces by spending too much time in Wellington. Just another downside of MMP; disassociation of the elected from the electors.

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  20. David Garrett (7,292 comments) says:

    Whatever language is used, the reality is that neither the founders of the “Labour” Party nor Labour leaders from the more recent past (such as Big Norm) would recognise the party as it is today. One can only imagine Big Norm’s reaction to the “Rainbow Room”, or what he would say when it was explained to him that the “concerns of the GLBT community” were every bit as important as those working on the railways (whether for Kiwirail or whoever) or the wharves.

    At the very least, surely it is time for “Labour” to change its name? I will leave it to others with more imagination than I to come up with possible new names…

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  21. lofty (1,315 comments) says:

    This issue just highlights the fact that the labour party no longer resembles, or represents the principles I for one used to support and vote for.
    The core fundamentals of “labourism” have disappeared and they have now become a “cult party” really only representing a minority of queers & career trade unionists.
    Damien O’Connor has spoken well, A DB for that man.
    I could think of a few new names for the party, but none of them would fall into the realms of decency.

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  22. BeaB (2,123 comments) says:

    Whaetever, ‘gaggle of gays’ will stick because it is what many of us see. Not a drop of hairy-armed sweat among them!

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  23. David Garrett (7,292 comments) says:

    Or what about the image of Tom Skinner or Jim Knox attending a caucus function…

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  24. maitai (1 comment) says:

    The Labour Party continues to be the residue of the disgruntled and the disfunctional.

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  25. backster (2,174 comments) says:

    “So Damien has a legitimate gripe, but the way he has gone about expressing it does him little credit”

    On the contrary I think it does him considerable credit.

    Such politically correct comment as

    “O’Connor could have made the point that straight white males struggle to get good list rankings, due to the identity politics in Labour, without labelling people as a “gaggle of gays”.

    is the type of nonsense we have to increasingly tolerate and would do him no credit at all.

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  26. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    O’conner is absolutely right – theyre a bunch of poofters and they want to be known as gays – so its great to hear that at least there is one MP who knows a spade when he sees one.

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  27. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    To be fair to Damien, Labour is a party that has lost it’s way. It has become a party made up less of unionists and workers representatives, and has become a party that has at it’s core, a manifesto of social engineering led by academics and minorities, with a dose of sexual politics thrown in for good measure.

    That is not to say that these people should not have some level of representation. The last thirty years has seen such a change in the sexual landscape in NZ. Homosexuality has been rightly removed as a criminal offence. People that have been forced to live a hidden life outside of society are now greater understtod and welcomed than ever before.

    Yes, there remains some members of society that continue a homophobic agenda, but by and large these people are seen as outside the mainstream.

    At the same time, minorities, particularly Maori, have seen a resurgence in their culture as all NZ realises the special relevance this taonga has to us, and our identity.

    However, many people will be looking at the profile these areas have got in that time and will be asking, “Yes, but how does it help us?”

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  28. DJP6-25 (1,387 comments) says:

    I guess he won’t be getting a recycled ‘holiday card’ from the Rainbow Caucus then?

    cheers

    David Prosser

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  29. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    What is it about our society’s allergy to honesty? Far better to be totally frank and risk offending a few overdelicate flowers than waffle on in gobbledygook and be ignored.

    O’Connor wanted to make a point. He made it. People noticed. Good on him.

    And besides: Labour is supposed to be the party that cares about minorities. In a party of gays and unionists, a straight white male is a minority and experiences prejudice.

    Why shouldn’t he say so?

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  30. Boss Hogg (9 comments) says:

    Labour’s list is so out of touch with the real people it isn’t funny. It’s clearly become more of an exclusive club than a political party.

    O’Connor is on the button. But the poor guy just can’t win, can he. Speak out against the gay cabal within the party and you’re labelled a homophobe. O’Connor hasn’t said anything offensive in relation to the homosexuals at all, they are simply far to precious. Why can’t they actually stp and listen to what the people want rather than race to play the gay card?

    It also annoys me how one person can purport to represent the views of all gays. Some guy calls it “redneck” and that supposedly reflects the views of all – what a load of crap.

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  31. Mark (496 comments) says:

    It’s not if this hasn’t been known about Labour for sometime and it’s no wonder Labour is failing to attract supporters to the party.

    Its time for a new party in NZ that represents the working man in NZ.

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  32. KH (695 comments) says:

    1. Quite liked David Farrar’s top 15 and top 30 analysis. Nifty piece of work that informs the discussion well.

    2. While I do note policy when deciding who to vote for there are other important factors for me. Demographic makeup of the list is important for my vote. Identifying the mix in the party list – Young, old, married single, white, asian, maori, is important. Gay identity on the list doesn’t escape consideration.

    There are some commentators here who think that ‘Gay’ is not proper to consider – not an issue. But I do include it in my thinking. I would prefer to see some ‘gay’ candidates on a list. But when a list is dominated by any one group. – such as old white men in suits. I would not likely vote for it.

    When a party list is strongly gay – I think that a very very strong signal by a party – I would not vote for it – and it is one of the many reasons I won’t be voting Labour this November.

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  33. Scott (1,801 comments) says:

    I think O’Connor’s remarks are exactly correct. And great analysis by DPF who shows that the substance of the remarks are true. I have thought for many years that the real intention of labour, the real passion of the Labour Party and the last Labour government was to dismantle our Western Judaeo-Christian values and morals. The reason they did this was to introduce the homosexuality agenda. They brought in legalised prostitution as a first strike to soften up the electorate before bringing in their real goal of the normalisation of homosexuality with the civil Unions act.

    They took a big hit in the electorate but were able to save themselves for a second and a third term because of a compliant media and the ability to buy great swathes of voters with new benefits and free student loans. In my view they are a disgrace to the Heritage of the Labour Party as exemplified by Walter Nash and Peter Frazer who when they introduced the welfare programs in the 1930s saw them as applied Christianity. The Labour Party today is a bunch of godless radicals who are systematically dismantling our wonderful civilisation. I do hope they remain in the electoral wilderness for many years until such time as they repent.

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  34. nasska (11,535 comments) says:

    It doesn’t bode well for a once proud party originally formed to promote the lot of the working man when being straight counts against an electorate MP. Who of the old guard would have thought that the stark choice facing Mr O’Connor could be changing his sexual orientation or staring at political oblivion.

    It has been suggested that about 3% of the 16+yo population are gay. Labour boasts 10% of it’s MPs as being openly gay & the rumour mill would suggest that there are a few more waiting for the closet door to open.

    The red flag of the Labour Party may yet be replaced by a well chewed pillow case.

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  35. reversespin (69 comments) says:

    A key electoral battleground is working class/socially conservative males – Chris Trotters “Waitakere Man”. The guys who are on the end of a shovel cleaning up liquifaction in Christchurch, the tradies who will do the rebuild. In the UK they are called “White Van Man”.

    Don Brash did pretty well leading up to ’05, herding this demographic towards National. Not enough to get them across the line, but the Orewa speech and appointing McCully as Minister of Political Correctness Removal (or whatever it was) played pretty well to Waitakere Man.

    National has got these voters pretty locked down now ( You don’t get to 54% without them) and Labour needs to get them back. O’Conner has probably done more towards that objective today, than any Labour MP has done since ’08……with the possible exception of Mallard.

    Great to see some Labour Party factional in-fighting, BTW. The medias favourite bloodsport – the left eating their young. Classic.

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  36. Ricardo (54 comments) says:

    Is Shane Jones a ‘straight shooter”??

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  37. alex Masterley (1,517 comments) says:

    RS, I think “Waitakere Man” will listen to Daimien O’Connor and walk away from labor as they aren’t representative of them.

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  38. nasska (11,535 comments) says:

    Ricardo @ 11.56am

    No one can say with any authority. The titles of the DVDs were never disclosed.

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  39. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    Anyone who would vote for a person simplpy because that person is gay is an idiot.

    Anyone who would vote for a person because that person is not gay is also an idiot.

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  40. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    @ KH 11:43 am

    When a party list is strongly gay – I think that a very very strong signal by a party – I would not vote for it – and it is one of the many reasons I won’t be voting Labour this November.

    I don’t know much about some lower on Labour’s list, but of the top 40, Grant Robertson, Charles Chauvel and Jordan Carter identify as gay and Maryann Street identifies as lesbian. That’s about what you would expect as representative of the wider population rather than being “strongly gay”.

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  41. Chuck Bird (4,891 comments) says:

    “The statistics say it’s about one in 10 who are homosexual. We have nearly 1000 kids at King’s, so there must be 100 in my situation,” he said.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10718462

    Why is that the MSM always accept without question claims made by homosexual activists or lobbyists without question? The true figure would 3 or 4 percent max. That would mean 1 or 2 homosexual MPs to be representative. I believe that are overrepresented. Good on Damien for speaking out. Does any one have any idea how many of the 41 Labour MPs are homosexual without naming them?

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  42. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    @Chuck Bird 12:07 pm

    Read the research findings I linked at 12:02 pm above.

    Not that I’m defending Labour – Goff effectively labeling West Coasters as “rednecks” will deliver more votes to the Greens.

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  43. lofty (1,315 comments) says:

    From nasska @ 1149..”The red flag of the Labour Party may yet be replaced by a well chewed pillow case”

    Quote of the day. Funny & sadly so descriptive.

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  44. kowtow (8,487 comments) says:

    Frredom of speech. Good on O’ Connor for saying it like it is. (Some day it will be a criminal offence)

    DPF’s criticism of Damos’ delivery is typical of the new Orwellianism in the west. Partners, spokespersons,chairs,fishers,etc etc Pathetic. The language of control and change.

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  45. Positan (390 comments) says:

    Labour’s fundamental difficulty is that it’s now such a mush of a political organisation, it has no real idea of what it actually stands for or where it really should be going – let alone what it has become. Accordingly it’s never sure whether to treat any sort of commented analysis as either helpful or threatening, and that’s just what’s happened here.

    O’Connor is right to state such an actuality – and the fact he can’t do so without being “scolded” or having to fear recourse reflects even more on the personality-driven silliness that epitomises his party. Labour’s direction has been long determined by influences far more personal than politically realistic (DPF calls that “identity politics”) and the main reason Labour’s in its present mess is because it has upheld and endorsed such irrelevances for so long.

    The list’s construction speaks legions about Labour’s nihilistic potential. How could O’Connor be wrong to point it out?

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  46. Chuck Bird (4,891 comments) says:

    @toad 12:12pm

    I do not consider the paedophile Kinsey a reliable source.

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  47. GPids (19 comments) says:

    To me it show’s exactly how little a priority the labour party places on rural NZ and agriculture. Damian’s meant to be labours spokesman on agriculture and this alone should have secured him a better list placing.
    I’m not surprised though, Labour did nothing for farmers when they were in government so why should this list be any different.
    It also makes me wonder who they would pick as the agriculture spokesman after the election if Damian fails to win the West Coast seat.

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  48. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    So it’s come to this. Someone who represents the core or what Labour always was, is basically treated like a bizarre alien who beamed in from another planet. A real man? How positively gauche!

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  49. somewhatthoughtful (465 comments) says:

    And David Garrett proves once again why he’s no longer in parliament, in the Kiwiblog comments section none the less. Hey david, guess what, the rest of New Zealand just tries to accept people for what they are, yeah weird eh? Dickhead

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  50. 2boyz (262 comments) says:

    David Garrett @ 10.58am. No need to change the parties name.

    L-esbo’s A-lternative B-ackdoor O-ut U-nion R-ainbow or ‘Labour’ cheers & sorry but they (the party chose the name).

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  51. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    Damien O’Connor must have been hanging out on here, picking up language like that.

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  52. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    “Is Shane Jones a ‘straight shooter”?? ”

    From the hip.

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  53. Akaroa (557 comments) says:

    “……..but the way he has gone about expressing it does him little credit”

    You’ve been too long in the rarefied world of Wellington’s equivalent of the Beltway, David!

    Step outside into the real world -(and read the preceding offerings) – to see what the ol’ New Zilder in the street or paddock actually thinks!

    A spade is a spade is a spade!

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  54. somewhatthoughtful (465 comments) says:

    @2boyz, oh, the wit. I just don’t know how you do it.

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  55. 3-coil (1,220 comments) says:

    Put it Away (12:47pm): “Is Shane Jones a ‘straight shooter”?? …From the hip”

    Yes, but unfortunately all he ever hits is the light bulb.

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  56. J Mex (190 comments) says:

    Surely this is strategy from O’Connor? A play to his west coast voters

    “Hey guys, I’m not on the list. I’m not gay. I’m not a unionist. I’m a red blooded bloke. If you vote for me, I’ll keep sticking it to the PC pollies, and keep calling like it is”

    I think that Goff tacitly acknowledges this and tries a foot in both camp approach as well.

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  57. Yvette (2,821 comments) says:

    Little said the panel that ranked the list was drawn from a wide range of backgrounds.
    ”The moderating committee is made up of 36 people. The affiliate unions have two votes on it. The rest are made up of various sectors of the party, including the six geographical regions, including that which West Coast-Tasman forms a part of.”

    – stuff.co.nz

    But then, if this was more honest, it would surely add –
    But the order of the List is all fucking nonsense as I can lean on anyone, from the Labour Leader upwards, to fill any vacancy with whomever I choose.

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  58. nasska (11,535 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird @ 12.20pm

    Earlier I thought that I’d better do a little research before hitting the keyboard. The website of Gay Tourism NZ gives a figure of 100,622 gays & lesbians between 16 & 64yrs/age in NZ. Given the estimated population eligible to vote of 3,238,200 as at 30.6.10 that would indicate about 3.1%.

    There is obviously no way of vetting Gay Tourism’s figure but since it is a commercially orientated organisation I would be inclined to think that they won’t be far out.

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  59. Chris2 (766 comments) says:

    This is why political Parties should lose the right to create their Party List.

    The List should be compiled AFTER the election, made up of the highest polling unsuccessful electorate candidates ranked at the top in order of votes received, and so on down.

    This would force every candidate to go out and win personal votes. In this way even a List MP cold claim to have some sort of personal mandate to be in Parliament and it would stop backroom deals behind party doors forcing unwanted MP’s on the public.

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  60. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird said : “That would mean 1 or 2 homosexual MPs to be representative.”

    Chuck, who are the one’s you are happy to see there ? Any ?

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  61. kowtow (8,487 comments) says:

    2boyz @ 1245 ,very good.

    Whenever I see that dreadful abbreviation GLBT, I think of the traditional bacon.lettuce,tomato sandwich,but I’ll be buggered if I could come up with what the G is.

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  62. davidp (3,581 comments) says:

    >So Damien has a legitimate gripe, but the way he has gone about expressing it does him little credit.

    Damien? It is Goff who stereotyped all West Coasters as being rednecks who use intolerant language. He should apologise to them and promise not to stereotype again.

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  63. thas (61 comments) says:

    @DPF –
    “So Damien has a legitimate gripe, but the way he has gone about expressing it does him little credit.”
    I hope the phrase “bunch of rednecks” also receives such admonitions from you.

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  64. Chuck Bird (4,891 comments) says:

    Rodders, good question. None of the Labour lot. One National one who is in the closet. When you combine a homosexual and a left winger there are not many I would support. Michael Coote stood for ACT a couple of elections ago. I would be happy to see him come to ACT and get a high list rating. The reason for that is that he is not blindly supportive of all militant homosexual demands.

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  65. Chuck Bird (4,891 comments) says:

    nasska, Thanks for that. The figure sounds a lot more credible than the indirect link to Kinsey

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  66. Rich Prick (1,705 comments) says:

    Gluten-free perhaps kowtow. Modern times.

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  67. minto57 (197 comments) says:

    The Labour party the gay party of choice.

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  68. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    Why is it deemed so necessary in some peoples eyes to have this sort of representation in parliament.

    I do not find it necessary to have my representative share my Gender, race, religion or Sexual Orientation. All that matters is how that person represents MY INTERESTS and not MYSELF.

    For example, if my representative was my age, white, protestant and straight, but was incompetent, and I felt that some who shared some, all, or none of those traits would represent me better, then so be it. I would be willing to wager that more people share that view than some would think.

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  69. Manolo (13,783 comments) says:

    And the pansies at The sub-Standard are horrified and calling O’Connor homophobic, rude and all sort of names.
    Ah, the poor delicate divas.

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  70. David Garrett (7,292 comments) says:

    Chuck; Nasska: The “10% of the male population are gay” figure Kinsey claimed – which is now often quoted as authoritative – comes from his questionaires in the 1950’s which lead up to the Kinsey Report. Paraphrasing, the question was something like “have you ever, at any time, had a sexual experience with a member of the same sex?” According to Kinsey, 10% of males answered “yes”.

    Slightlyrighty: I agree with you completely – as do a number of my gay friends. Competence is much more relevant than the sexual orientation of ones MP…or doctor, or lawyer, or mechanic….

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  71. Brian Smaller (4,023 comments) says:

    Whenever I see that dreadful abbreviation GLBT, I think of the traditional bacon.lettuce,tomato sandwich,but I’ll be buggered if I could come up with what the G is.

    For Gluten-free of course.

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  72. toad (3,674 comments) says:

    @David Garrett 2:32 pm

    The percentage in the Kinsey study to that question i.e. “Have you had at least one homosexual experience?” – was actually 37% for men. The 10% figure for men in the study was to the question “Have you been more or less exclusively homosexual for at least three years between the ages of 16 and 55?”

    [DPF: That Kinsey figure is pretty discredited. Almost all the recent studies cite a 3% to 5% prevalance.]

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  73. KiwiGreg (3,255 comments) says:

    @ slitghtlyrighty – agree 100%. This bizarre fixation of sexual orientation and “race” as relevant qualifications for anything is pretty unattractive.

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  74. KiwiGreg (3,255 comments) says:

    Why isn’t Goff in your list DPF? He’s been a professional politician so long you cant be tagging him as a “unionist”?

    [DPF: He has an electiorate seat so is not on the "effective list"]

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  75. publicwatchdog (2,598 comments) says:

    Perhaps Labour MP Damien O’Connor, might have felt less grumpy had he been reminded of NZ Herald’s CHIEF Political Reporter’s analysis of the only poll that really counts – an election result?

    In this case the recent Botany by-election?

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10710626

    Botany byelection loss holds silver lining for Labour Party
    By John Armstrong
    5:30 AM Monday Mar 7, 2011

    At last, Phil Goff has something to smile about.

    Exactly why the Labour leader is smiling might not seem immediately obvious given that National’s Jami-Lee Ross won Saturday’s Botany byelection in a canter, securing almost double the number of votes of his Labour counterpart.

    The answer is that everything is relative in politics. Labour did better than it hoped. National did not fare as well as it would have expected.
    ……………………..

    The complicating factor is Saturday’s abysmally low turnout. However, the non-vote would more likely be weighted in Labour’s favour.

    The 36.6 per cent turnout – half that of a general election – meant both major parties got fewer votes than at the 2008 election. Labour’s vote proved more robust. National’s vote halved from more than 17,000 to just over 8000. In comparison, Labour’s vote fell, but far less dramatically – from around 6500 to just over 4000.

    The net result is: Labour increased its share of the candidate vote in the seat from 21 per cent in 2008 to 28 per cent on Saturday.

    Moreover, it did so in the face of a number of handicaps – notably the party’s candidate, Michael Wood, committing one of politics’ great sins early on by saying he would not win the seat. ………”

    While I’m here! :)

    “slightlyrighty (1,781) Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 1:58 pm

    Why is it deemed so necessary in some peoples eyes to have this sort of representation in parliament.

    I do not find it necessary to have my representative share my Gender, race, religion or Sexual Orientation. All that matters is how that person represents MY INTERESTS and not MYSELF.”

    I agree with you on this point “slightlyrighty ‘.

    Well put.

    In my considered opinion, it is the policies and track record that should be arguably be the most important yardstick which voters should apply to both candidates and the political parties they represent, not their gender, race, religion or sexual orientation.

    So – just how ‘representative’ should the House of Representatives actually be?

    Interesting question………..

    :)

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  76. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    There’s a subtle distinction that needs to be made here. Labour hasn’t ranked its list on the basis of the sexual orientation of those candidates; if you don’t believe that, imagine for a moment the fate of a conservative (by Labour standards) working class gay candidate. If that’s stretching the imagination, try and picture Damien O’Connor as a gay man, but with the same attitudes to policy issues as he has currently.

    The common thread that links the upper list rankings isn’t sexual orientation but conformity to a pattern of thought on a raft of issues, only a handful of them having anything to do with sex or sexuality. The other common factor for many is, of course, links to the former leader who spent her entire political life seeding the party with people who conformed to a particular world view. That many were gay was a secondary consideration, if it was a factor at all.

    More important than “who’s gay and who’s not” or any questions of sexual politics is the question raised by David Garrett and others – would Norm Kirk or even Bill Rowling, and the people who formed the backbone of the party during their time, have any place in the Labour Party of today? And if not, who is representing the interests of working men and women today? Don't they deserve a voice? And isn't it time Labour relinquished the name?

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  77. andrei (2,657 comments) says:

    Toad
    the Kinsey study was a crock, the sample was exclusively drawn from the good professors students and guests of the California government semipermanently resident of those institutions used to hold the anti social.

    It does not even extrapolate to California in the 1950s let alone the wider United States.

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  78. David Garrett (7,292 comments) says:

    toad: thanks for that…but am I right in thinking that currently wisdom has it that Kinsey was wrong (for whatever reasons) and that the percentage of gays in the adult male poplulation is less than 5%?

    That 37% figure is very interesting…Judging from vague memories of nocturnal fumbling at scout camps as an adolescent I wouldnt be surprised if it was about right….frottage was included as a ‘sexual experience’ from memory?

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  79. nasska (11,535 comments) says:

    David Garrett @ 2.32pm

    I’ve read of Kinsey’s questioning but it always seemed a little suspect. Essentially he is saying that one homosexual experience as a teenager, be it unwelcomed or born of sheer experimentation, defines a person’s sexual orientation. As a teenager I was sent to a single sex boarding school on the pretext that the absence of the fairer sex would concentrate my scholarly efforts….instead one was faced with the constant risk of buggery.

    But I digress…

    I care not what my doctor, my lawyer or my mechanic do to get their rocks off….I judge them totally by their ability to do what they are paid to do. A MP falls into a different category. As a group they enjoy & choose to exercise great power over what is legal & what is not. If they stuck to the knitting & legislated on tax, defense & the regulation of drainage authorities I care not what glues their sheets together but since they insist on legislating on matters that can or will impact on my personal life I wish to know a great deal about them. Their own views must influence their actions in parliament. Witness conscience votes on abortion or gay rights.

    As such they had better be up front or expect to be ankle tapped further down the line.

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  80. TripeWryter (716 comments) says:

    Stuff reports that Goff has told O’Connor to apologise to the Labour caucus tomorrow.

    Don’t do it, Damien …

    It’s a pity that this is starting to be spun as an attack on gays. It seems to me that O’Connor was saying that the list had been selected by people not representative of Labour’s supporters and original principles.

    A majority of people on the stuff website seem to agree.

    Don’t do it, Damien.

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  81. Pete George (23,578 comments) says:

    And if not, who is representing the interests of working men and women today? Don’t they deserve a voice? And isn’t it time Labour relinquished the name?

    They’re not ready to do that, they still need it for some of their slogans. They do sometimes purport to represent ordinary working kiwis, even though their history is just a convenient prop for their strategists. The problem is there are actors on Shortland Street who can deliver their lines more convincingly.

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  82. David Garrett (7,292 comments) says:

    Jeez Rex, give it it a rest! You have just agreed with me 100% – again!

    This is going to destroy both of our reputations…

    Nasska: You make a good point…Fair enough I guess to know if someone listening to submissions on abortion law had ever been a member of SPUC…more relevant prior to an election though??

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  83. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    I wonder what Darren Hughes and his 18 year old “drinking buddy” think about Damien’s comment?

    And I’ll second Nasska’s 3:09 pm comment:
    We have every right to know someone’s sexual orientation, and indeed their morality (or lack thereof) in general, when they are members of parliament; when they have been given the authority to pass laws which have a societal impact on morality, standards, and indeed the value of human life itself. People who think an MP’s morality doesn’t affect how they vote in parliament are fools, or worse, are deliberately sought on destroying any vestige of morality and values left within society.

    Good on Damien for his honesty. And shame on the cultural Marxists who would limit his/our free speech!

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  84. Christopher Thomson (376 comments) says:

    As far as I am aware there is no gay porn on hotel systems. certainly not in any of the hotels I have stayed in. So I would suggest that Shane Jones was watching ‘normal’ stuff.

    Kinsey was a charlatan. He become a Doctor for his work studying gall wasps. However he was such a fucked-up weirdo he attempted to validate his perversion by manufacturing a study that he hoped would let him believe he was normal.

    I have heard it said that one of his many behaviours was to violently masturbate while having his testicle strangulated and then insert toothbrushes – bristles first – into his penis. I immediately dismiss anyone who uses a Kinsey invented statistic to support their argument.

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  85. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    I never bought the 10% gay thing. Never seemed right.

    I went to a boys school (kelston). No way were there 130 gay dudes there.

    The 3% seems about right to me.

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  86. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Further to Damien O’connor’s “A gaggle of gays” comment, I have come up with some other animal grouping names and kept the alliteration going. Some alternative phrases he might have used:
    [I have highlighted my favourites]

    A herd of homos
    A horde of homos
    A harem of homos
    A harvest of homos
    *A hive of homos (Beehive – get it?)

    A pack of poofs
    A population of poofs
    A pride of poofs
    A puddling of poofs
    *A parliament of poofs (obvious)
    A pod of poofs

    A swarm of sodomites
    A skulk of sodomites
    A stretch of sodomites
    A shadow of sodomites
    A smack of sodomites
    A smuck of sodomites
    A smuth of sodomites
    A scourge of sodomites
    A school of sodomites
    A sloth of sodomites
    A sleuth of sodomites

    A quiver of queers

    A litter of lesbians
    A legion of lesbians (now that’s scary)
    A leash of lesbians
    A leap of lesbians
    A lepe of lesbians
    A lice of lesbians
    A lute of lesbians
    *A labour of lesbians (no need to explain)

    A troop of transgender
    A tower of transgender
    A tribe of transgender
    A thunder of transgender
    A team of transgender

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  87. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Christopher Thomson 3:35 pm,

    Yeah, we all know Kinsey was a sick demented pervert who was only interested in “normalising” his perversion. And thanks for that mental image with the toothbrush – I was just going to have a late lunch, but I think I’ll hold fire ’til tea time.

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  88. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    Kris K I’m a bit confused- How could a person’s sexual ‘orientation’ have any impact on their morality? and more importantly their ability to pass laws?

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  89. publicwatchdog (2,598 comments) says:

    Kris K (3,540) Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 3:48 pm

    Further to Damien O’connor’s “A gaggle of gays” comment, I have come up with some other animal grouping names and kept the alliteration going. Some alternative phrases he might have used: ”

    So you are gay yourself are you ‘Kris’?

    ‘Methinks he/she doth protest too much’?

    :)

    It’s ok – ‘Kris’ – being gay in NZ is neither unlawful, compulsory nor contagious.

    All the best.

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  90. big bruv (13,906 comments) says:

    The ironic thing about O’Connor’s forced apology is that it actually proves what he said to be true.

    It seems you are not allowed to speak out against Gay’s or Unionists.

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  91. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    The only timeyou can get away with saying a group is a bunch of something is white men.

    “they are just a bunch of white men”.

    Thats fine.

    “they are just a bunch of women” – not allowed

    “they are just a bunch of maoris” – really not allowed

    and so on and so on

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  92. Ross Miller (1,704 comments) says:

    Damien O’Connor …. white, farmer, Catholic, straight, conservative (with a small c) … no wonder he feels lonely in that caucus. Bet his best friends are on the other side of the House.

    But the outburst may have done him no harm whatsoever in the West Coast seat he is trying to wrest from National. But if he were to win the seat and Labour the election I can’t see their caucus voting him into Cabinet. Case then of winning the battle and losing the war Damien style.

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  93. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Longknives 4:00 pm,

    Kris K I’m a bit confused- How could a person’s sexual ‘orientation’ have any impact on their morality? and more importantly their ability to pass laws?

    In answer to ALL of your questions let me just say “1986 Homosexual Law Reform”.
    And just because a law is passed to “normalise” an immoral practice doesn’t make that practice any more moral. All it does is show how societal standards have slipped further into the sewer.

    And to Penny Bright,
    If you are the best example of someone who is a “Public Watch Dog”, then it only proves our society is well and truly stuffed. Does your “dog” come with a white cane?

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  94. big bruv (13,906 comments) says:

    “And just because a law is passed to “normalise” an immoral practice doesn’t make that practice any more moral. All it does is show how societal standards have slipped further into the sewer.”

    Another example of religious tolerance :(

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  95. GJ (329 comments) says:

    Longknives: Your question must surely be a Joke!

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  96. Rick Rowling (813 comments) says:

    Oh jeez, who got Kris the tolerant going?

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  97. slightlyrighty (2,475 comments) says:

    Speaking of jokes……

    Did you hear about the Gay Dyslexic Homophobe?

    He’s still in daniel……

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  98. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    Kris K – Thank you for your Speech from the Throne.

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  99. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    rodders – HAHAHA

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  100. publicwatchdog (2,598 comments) says:

    “# big bruv (8,897) Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 4:11 pm

    The ironic thing about O’Connor’s forced apology is that it actually proves what he said to be true.

    It seems you are not allowed to speak out against Gay’s or Unionists.”

    err……….. no – I think you’ll find that ‘O’Connor’s forced apology’ will be more likely to be about making such a statement publicly?

    Arguably, such a criticism should have been made ‘inside the tent’ – especially given that how Labour pick their party lists (as is equally the case with National, Greens, Maori Party etc) is THEIR internal business?

    There is obviously a contradiction between ‘freedom of expression’ and the exercise of that right when you are member of a political party, and expected to show a bit more political ‘nous’?

    ie: If you are a member of a political party and you say things that arguably undermine your political party, and caucus colleagues – then repercussions are surely to be expected?

    Basic political commonsense I would have thought.

    To use the ‘freedom of expression’ argument, in this circumstance, in my view is just ‘spin’.

    How would you have expected John Key to have dealt with such a lack of political discipline, in an equivalent situation?
    ie: A National Party MP publicly criticising fellow National Party MPs (for any reason) and how they are selected?

    I’m no John Key fan – but I don’t think he would have put up with it.

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

    :)

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  101. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    Kris I’m a ‘right leaning’ heterosexual male- To the the extent friends have on occasions accused me of being a ‘Redneck’! But alas I havn’t lead the cleanest and most wholesome life, I ‘covet’ women and I certainly have sex for other reasons than procreation. Does this make me unsuitable to run for parliament??

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  102. Rick Rowling (813 comments) says:

    Penny, Kris & I debated this a few months back.

    I’m sure he’ll correct me, but as I recall, I reckoned that being gay isn’t a choice (based on my own inability to choose – I have no choice but to be straight), and Kris agreed that he was also hard-wired to be straight (I’d suggested that if he thought he had a choice then maybe he was bi), as is everyone, but some people choose to behave homosexually as some sort of rebellion against god or goodness or society or something.

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  103. Doug (410 comments) says:

    It makes you wonder how far Andrew Little managed to get Damien’s arm up his back.

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  104. publicwatchdog (2,598 comments) says:

    # Rodders (708) Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 4:46 pm

    Kris K – Thank you for your Speech from the Throne.”

    VERY good ‘Rodders’.

    It’s all good Kris – I’d rather be a Public Watchdog than a sick puppy.

    Meant of course, in a compassionate, tolerant, caring way – following your shining example.

    :)

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  105. bhudson (4,740 comments) says:

    Ross Miller,

    No change for Damien in your example – he currently sits right at the back propping the wall up. So no disadvantage to him for creating dissension within his own party sonar to increase his personal chances in the seat he is contesting. I guess it does provide him with the benefit of another 3 years free feeding from the trough.

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  106. publicwatchdog (2,598 comments) says:

    # Longknives (87) Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 4:00 pm

    Kris K I’m a bit confused- How could a person’s sexual ‘orientation’ have any impact on their morality? and more importantly their ability to pass laws?”

    Fair point ‘Longknives’.

    I agree.

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  107. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    Oh Christ- Publicwatchdog is agreeing with me! I take EVERYTHING I said about this subject matter back (that ‘after work’ beer must have gone to my head)….. Apologies to Kris!!

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  108. publicwatchdog (2,598 comments) says:

    “# Longknives (88) Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 5:16 pm

    Oh Christ- Publicwatchdog is agreeing with me! I take EVERYTHING I said about this subject matter back (that ‘after work’ beer must have gone to my head)….. Apologies to Kris!! ”

    I work on an issue by issue basis ‘Longknives’ – sooner or later you’ll get the hang of it.

    Yes – it may seem unusual that we are agreeing on something – but remember – even a stopped clock is right twice a day ;)

    (You will probably find that on the hundreds of issues that exist in the world – we may agree on more things than you could have ever imagined. Why cut off your nose to spite your face?

    On issues where we agree, you will find that I am a VERY strong ally.
    Where we don’t agree – that’s cool – but you don’t have to be personal and nasty about it.
    Just agree to disagree in a civilised way – like I do.

    (Usually ;)

    Penny Bright
    waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  109. TripeWryter (716 comments) says:

    Hmmmm … it seems as if O’Connor might not have to apologise to his caucus.

    Perhaps Labour is finding that his remarks have received a lot of backing on radio talkback, and on the stuff poll, which was running about 75 % behind O’Connor the last time I looked.

    Don’t do it, Damien …

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  110. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    Christopher Thomson:

    I have heard it said that one of his many behaviours …

    I’ve heard a lot of things said about a lot of people, particularly myself. And always by some nasty little piece of vermin like Ron Mark who thinks that a filthy accusation is a shortcut to the destruction of someone’s credibility.

    FWIW Kinsey and his fellow researchers (he wasn’t the only author of Sexual Behaviour in the Human Male, Pomeroy and Martin were co-authors. Care to speculate on what they did with their toothbrushes?) devoted an entire chapter to stressing that there were, to varying degrees, problems with the vailidity of their data.

    Here’s a hint: it’s called “Validity of the Data”.

    But no, if we want to challenge their conclusions, far better to just conjure some bizarre perversion out of mid air. Speaking of which, who was that chicken I saw you with last night?

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  111. IHStewart (388 comments) says:

    @ Gpids, good point, even more so due to the creation of a super ministry encompassing Agriculture, Forestries, Commercial Fishing, Aquaculture and Recreational Fishing. I would have thought given the nature of the NZ economy you might want a guy who was the next possible minister in waiting to be in parliament should that possibly happen.

    One might also read into this that Labour see that possibility as so remote that why bother.

    As a recreational fisher I do have more than a few concerns about a super ministry. Shared fisheries has been a joke from a recreational perspective, I can’t see it getting any traction what so ever in a super ministry. This is an issue ” Waitakere Man ” understands and cares about. Actually I don’t even know who has the shadow portfolio now, it was Jim Anderton but he gave it up.

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  112. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Another example of religious tolerance.
    Oh jeez, who got Kris the tolerant going?

    Rick and BB,
    Only a fool would advocate being tolerant of the intolerable.
    And Rick, we’re ALL hard wired heterosexuals – people choose to take up the “homosexual lifestyle”, just the same way as someone chooses to become a paedophile. Or are you advocating that paedophiles are “just born that way” as well?

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  113. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    Longknives asks:

    How could a person’s sexual ‘orientation’ have any impact on their morality? and more importantly their ability to pass laws?

    It works like this, Longknives:

    1. Narrow minded bigots keep claiming a certain sexual practice is immoral, shameful, harmful etc. They keep it illegal for as long as they possibly can, just to emphasise how “wrong” it is. the fact that when it finally becomes legal and the world doe not in fact end, does not deter them in the least. They carry on judging a person solely or primarily on their sexual desire even though there’s no real evidence of any correlation between these “unnatural” desires and an inability to make good decisions. Note that I’m phrasing it broadly because, contrary to what they’d have you believe, it’s not just homosexuals to whom this applies. Imagine, for instance, that a would be MP was a secret plushie… think it’d be easy to admit it?

    2. People who experience these desires get the message and know they need to deny that side of themselves if they are to succeed in public life. Occasionally the hypocritical, unprincipled ones will actually make a career out of railing against people who share the same sexual proclivity, but are open about it.

    3. Those elected officials then become prospective targets for blackmail and “stings” and, even if they’re not targeted in that way, often eventually melt down due to the sheer mental and physical effort of separating their public persona from their private one. And/or they become so resentful of the people who’ve forced them to suppress who they are to get elected, they become biased in their decision-making either toward others like themselves or against people who are not, or both.

    The solution is simple: we stop caring what part of their anatomy people stick where, ever. Then everyone can be who they truly are and we can judge them on their performance as our elected representatives and not against some irrelevent moral standard.

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  114. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    Kris K asks:

    …are you advocating that paedophiles are “just born that way” as well?

    I don’t know about Rick, but I am. Based on no less a source than the Times of London, which in turn reports MRI studies of paedophile’s brains:

    Paedophiles may owe their sexual urges to faulty connections in the brain, research has suggested.

    A study in which the brains of convicted child sex abusers were scanned and compared with criminals who were not sex offenders has revealed striking differences that could point to a neurological origin for paedophilia.

    Now before you go conflating “explaining” with “condoning”, I’d best point out that the researchers also state:

    if the finding were confirmed, it would in no way excuse paedophiles who abuse children.

    Even if paedophiles’ sexual attraction to children is determined or influenced by underlying brain structure, that did not mean that people who actually attempted to have sex with children were not culpable.

    However, if we continue to deny scientific evidence that some people are hard-wired to behave differently then we deny ourselves the chance to protect victims, perhaps by “diagnosing” people with aberrant behaviours much earlier on, and effectively treating them so they don’t reoffend.

    Incidentally, anyone interested in the brain (not the mind, the actual physical structure, chemical environment etc of the organ itself) and its effect on offending – and more importantly, how neurology can help detect and prevent predispositions to certain types of offending – will be utterly fascinated by the Neulaw site and the work of Dr David Eagleman. If you have a spare half hour, the video on the front page does an excellent job of providing an overview, complete with fascinating anecdotes.

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  115. mudrunner (91 comments) says:

    It is about representation in the House of Representatives. Labour is not representative.

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  116. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    It has probably been said above but for my way of thinking all O’Connor has said out loud is what the majority of readers here and voters actually think.

    The NZ Labour presently has about as much in common with the traditional labour voter as Winston Peters has with the truth.

    The Labour party has been hi-jacked by Helen acolytes and it has become jobs for the boys on a grand scale. Look at Smiling Andy, he doesn’t even need to campaign in reality because he has been guaranteed a gig.

    A few Wellington insiders could take a note of this and grow a pair , the more people actually express themselves in real language the better, the message might get through. What he said was not offensive and to state……….. but the way he has gone about expressing it does him little credit … is bullshit, Damien O’Connor just got himself re-elected.

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  117. Lucia Maria (2,428 comments) says:

    Sexual orientation, by itself, does not make a person unfit for office. However, unmarried, sexually promiscuous individuals, who are promiscuous with either sex or sexually active with the same sex are unfit. This paragraph (taken from an article about pornography) talks specifically about how chastity is essential to the political order, which then can be translated as required those who pass laws to have the same virtue:

    Chastity is not only a moral virtue; it is also indispensable to political order. Chastity is integral to the functioning of the irreducible core of a polity. Aristotle begins The Politics not with a single individual, but with a description of a man and a woman together in the family, without which the rest of society cannot exist. A healthy family is posited upon the proper and exclusive sexual relationship between a husband and wife. The family alone is capable of providing the necessary stability for the profound relationship which sexual union both symbolizes and cements and for the welfare of the children that issue from it. Violations of chastity undermine not only the family, but society as a whole. That is why chastity may be spoken of as the first political principle.

    From The Politics of Porn, which I quoted a number of years back when in defence when I was attacked for being annoyed that I voted for a lesbian mayor.

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  118. Longknives (4,753 comments) says:

    Thanks Rex for opening my mind with that link to the amazing world of Plushophilia! That’s the good thing about Kiwiblog… I am always learning something new! Though I feel a little dirty….

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  119. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Rex Widerstrom 6:18 pm,

    Narrow minded bigots keep claiming a certain sexual practice is immoral, shameful, harmful etc. They keep it illegal for as long as they possibly can, just to emphasise how “wrong” it is. the fact that when it finally becomes legal and the world doe not in fact end, does not deter them in the least.

    On that point, Rex, you might want to take it up with the then citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah when you encounter them in the sfterlife. Not to mention those who practiced such abominations prior to God, quite literally, destroying the earth during the Flood of Noah because of the wickedness of man. There is indeed a precedent here.

    And as you are pushing the issue about “right” and “wrong”; about morality – how do you, Rex, determine what is moral? Would you also cite some so called study to back up your claims, or do you rely on some other “authority”. Or is “right” and “wrong” nothing more than a “majority vote”? Assuming the latter then I guess nothing is off limits? Isn’t moral relativism a wonderful thing …

    PS Yes, I’m more than happy to wear the “narrow minded bigot” badge – in fact I wear it with pride!

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  120. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    “At the very least, surely it is time for “Labour” to change its name? I will leave it to others with more imagination than I to come up with possible new names…”

    Civil Unionists.

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  121. Viking2 (11,471 comments) says:

    dime (3,058) Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 3:48 pm

    I never bought the 10% gay thing. Never seemed right.

    I went to a boys school (kelston). No way were there 130 gay dudes there.

    Dime; You checked all the boys out? There may well have been a gaggle of them there.

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  122. nasska (11,535 comments) says:

    Rex @ 6.18pm

    In all other spheres of human activity bar politics my attitude is basically homo, hetero, farmyard, whatever. When it comes to government, however, we are moving into slightly different territory. As I stated earlier when parliament is engaged in it’s normal fruitless & childish waffle over the Waikikamookau Drainage Act it is irrelevant whether they go home to practise plushophilia, disinfect their toothbrushes or tend to their pet gerbils.

    Regrettably these same self servers take it upon themselves to legislate our moral standards. For fundamentalist Christians the biggies are abortion & homosexuality which hopefully have been debated to death. For others of us it could be drugs, section 59 or the powers of the police. Our representatives are playing for high stakes here because their deliberations can result in the loss of a person’s reputation & (or) freedom.

    I’m not suggesting that a MP’s sexual orientation, religion or upbringing necessarily debars them from representing me but I do feel entitled to know of anything that may influence their judgement. Serving as a MP is not an ordinary job & I consider it fair for the elected ones to accept that disclosure is a price they pay to hold the office.

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  123. RightNow (6,994 comments) says:

    Civil Unionists? Surely an oxymoron

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  124. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    Right now – my other idea was Thuggery&Buggery , more accurate but not as neat.

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  125. big bruv (13,906 comments) says:

    “Sexual orientation, by itself, does not make a person unfit for office. However, unmarried, sexually promiscuous individuals, who are promiscuous with either sex or sexually active with the same sex are unfit.”

    That Lucia, would be the most ignorant and downright stupid comment I have ever read on this blog.

    It is no wonder that most Kiwis have no time for religion and even less time for old fashioned religious bigotry.

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  126. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    Kris K said “you might want to take it up with the then citizens of Sodom and Gomorrah when you encounter them in the sfterlife”

    (Groan)

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  127. reid (16,473 comments) says:

    And Rick, we’re ALL hard wired heterosexuals – people choose to take up the “homosexual lifestyle”

    Kris I’m really not sure on that, myself. As you know I’m a Christian so I know precisely what the Bible says about it, I’m straight, but I have a brother who’s gay. You know one rumour is that “gay” came out of San Francisco in the sixties and stands for “Good As You” but I digress.

    Having known like a brother my brother all his life (I’m older) I know exactly what he did as a child and I’m buggered if I can point to anything in his life that could have turned him.

    I don’t get it myself. The argument that it’s a choice depends on being titillated by other guys and personally, that’s not something I’ve ever experienced. I don’t understand how a genuinely straight man could turn himself queer by “titillating himself” with whatever the hell it is gays think about when they’re horny, and fuck, my experience and I bet that of any straight guy, is that’s not really a path that’s ever really occurred to one.

    A person’s sexuality can be influenced by trauma, but otherwise it occurs as a natural part of growing up. It’s something that wells up, it’s not directed up by our conscious thought, is it. And my brother has told me that when he was the same age I was when I first started thinking about girls, he was thinking about boys.

    Like I say, I’ve known him all my life and if his homosexuality is a conscious choice, I’m buggered if I know why he made it, because it’s not the easy option. But it is a case of being true to oneself and that’s why they need to be open about it and why we should let them be open about it. It’s when they get all precious about it, like this reaction to Damian’s comment, that I don’t care for. Newsflash: being gay is NOT a sacred taonga, you know.

    At the same time Kris as I said I know exactly what the Bible says about, and I can’t reconcile what I think is right and what the Bible fairly explicitly points out. I admit that’s a sin on my part, for not following the Lord’s word on this and I know I will answer for that.

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  128. kaya (1,360 comments) says:

    A rarity, an honest political statement.

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  129. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Lucia

    Bruv ,was correct again, please burn your voter registration card, you have shown once again you are clearly too stupid to be allowed the privilege of partaking in a democratic society .FFS,

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  130. Pete George (23,578 comments) says:

    “Not to mention those who practiced such abominations prior to God, quite literally, destroying the earth during the Flood of Noah”

    Drowning everyone on earth except for a select couple wouldn’t be regarded as an abomination would it.
    Men. Women. Kids. Pregnant women. Married for life faithful hetereo couples. Better not take any chances in case one might have once not prayed before they went to bed.

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  131. reid (16,473 comments) says:

    I never bought the 10% gay thing. Never seemed right.

    Absolutely Viking. The issue and problem with gay rights is, the politicians use it for their own ends, as several alluded to above: civil unions anyone. It to them is a mere vehicle.

    Useful idiots who think it’s all about the humanity when of course it’s really about the power, get all excited and spread the word that it’s 10%, precisely like a useful idiot would do, if one actually were one.

    It’s my observation that these useful idiots also think they are actually achieving something by their creeping gay rights advocacy, like civil unions, as if there was anything more to gain. The battle was won long ago, in the 80’s and 90’s. It’s a fairly simple equation. Of all people in all cultures, all walks of life, all socio-economic groupings, all educational levels, apparently, a proportion are gay. So leave them alone. It’s not their fault. It’s not even an affliction, it’s an attribute of their personality. So what?

    The useful idiots don’t seem to get that this attitude became almost universally prevalent like say 98% since the 80’s and 90’s so they can now stop shouting, it’s all fine. Just shut up. And stop lying, as well.

    10%. Yeah right.

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  132. IHStewart (388 comments) says:

    @Lucia Maria. Can’t see a problem with

    ” However, unmarried, sexually promiscuous individuals, who are promiscuous …”

    being represented in parliament as long as the shagging is consensual. This has nothing to do with pornography or any other of the crap you are going on about.

    Should Damian have said what he did ? No in my opinion, he could have sent the same message in a more subtle way but he sent a message to Labour voters such as me. Take back control of the party or walk. I have opted to walk. Oh for the record I want Grant Robertson to emerge from this stupidity as leader. He dosen’t make gay an issue, he gets isues that are important to me. ( Now if I could take Grant fishing he really might understand my point of view ).

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  133. Pete George (23,578 comments) says:

    “Gaggle of gays” is hardly the worst term a politician has ever used.

    Why aren’t all the groups representing”self-serving unionists” up in arms about their label. Young unionists all over the country will have had their self esteem shattered by that slur.

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  134. reid (16,473 comments) says:

    Young unionists all over the country will have had their self esteem shattered by that slur.

    I suspect Little would have already issued an APB some hours ago addressing precisely that Pete. The poor wee things. How tewwible.

    From: Andrew
    To: Everyone
    Re: O’Connor’s slur on the Party Union Representatives

    Dear Comrades,

    Today was a dark day perhaps unsurpassed in the lamentable catalogue of human injustice. Perpetuated by a vicious traitor previously loyal representative of our great Party Union.

    Basically, Damien’s just a facist. He’s a homophobic capitalist pig-dog just waiting to turn against us again. I’m organising a series of hui so we can plan his downfall, during working hours. (Don’t tell the members about this, will you.)

    Your local Party Committee Member Regional Union Representative will be in touch soon with the details. Don’t forget to bring lots of koha. Make something up and pass the hat around. It would be welcome were you to encourage your members to contribute to this worthwhile cause.

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  135. Viking2 (11,471 comments) says:

    I’m waiting for Ms Kelly to erupt with some puerile nonsense about the unions.

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  136. Viking2 (11,471 comments) says:

    More on unions.

    http://warmandloving.blogspot.com/2011/04/nzs-impotent-union-movement-comes-to_11.html

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  137. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Reid 7:16 pm,

    I appreciate your comment, and thanks for sharing about your brother – no one ever said it was easy. Like you, I can only go by what God says on such topics, and when He describes such things in black and white terms my feelings and opinions have to take a back seat. My greatest concern is how the homosexual agenda has been pushed to the point where society today is almost unrecognisable compared to when you and I were growing up. This “normalisation” of homosexuality is central in the drive to remove whatever remains of Judeo-Christian values and principles; upon which Western civilisation was established. Which, of course, is the aim of the cultural Marxists who are behind such an agenda. We force God out of our society and then people wonder why it all turns to shite …

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  138. Scarfieasbro (1 comment) says:

    @Reid , There is always a lot to gain, namely Equality under the Law ?

    I just wanted to post as a an American Log Cabin Republican and also a National voter and say that some people in here are rehashing really old/misguided talking points regarding LGBT stuff. One of them being that all gays are lefties or something. The only tiny amount of bible beating in here is pleasing (in the USA its pretty rampant).

    To be short:
    Sexual orientation is not a choice.
    Sexual behavior is.
    Even the Catholic Church (who I am no fan of) have understood this distinction for ages. There is a huge scientific consensus on this idea.

    Other thing:
    “PS Yes, I’m more than happy to wear the “narrow minded bigot” badge – in fact I wear it with pride” – Kris

    LOL

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  139. Lucia Maria (2,428 comments) says:

    Big Bruv and PaulEastBay,

    I’m so wounded!

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  140. Yvette (2,821 comments) says:

    So the self-serving unionist Little jumped [figure of speech] lesbian Louisa Wall five places up Labour’s List into Parliament at the exit of outed Darren Hughes.
    And for some reason Damien O’Connor has to fucking apologise?
    For stating the truth?

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  141. iMP (2,385 comments) says:

    What happens if you’re a trade unionist AND gay? Are you compulsorily made leader of the Party?

    How do you define “gay”? Does Andrew Little check?

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  142. Pete George (23,578 comments) says:

    This “normalisation” of homosexuality is central in the drive to remove whatever remains of Judeo-Christian values and principles; upon which Western civilisation was established. Which, of course, is the aim of the cultural Marxists who are behind such an agenda.

    If giving reasonable rights to groups like homosexuals happens to cause some Christians to think it is an attack on their very being they must be very insecure about their reasonings.

    We force God out of our society and then people wonder why it all turns to shite …

    Shite has been around in large amounts since God, and before. It isn’t all turning to shite this week, year, century or millenium.

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  143. big bruv (13,906 comments) says:

    KrisK

    “We force God out of our society”

    Damn right!….people like you have forced your God out of our society, you have forced your God out through your intolerance, bigotry, racism and total disregard for the realties of life. It is no wonder that religion plays no part in the life of most Kiwis.

    You can blame the pinko’s if you like Kris but all you achieve by doing that is to ignore reality, cultural marxists are not to blame for the demise of religion, the church itself must carry that blame…..frankly, it is no more than the church, and you, deserve.

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  144. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    iMP 8:12 pm,

    What happens if you’re a trade unionist AND gay? Are you compulsorily made leader of the Party?

    No, I’m pretty sure that to secure the leadership position you have to be both a communist and lesbian. Apologies to Phil “seat-warmer” Goff.

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  145. Viking2 (11,471 comments) says:

    Perhaps we now know why Dalzeil also went out on her own as an electorate MP.

    Krisk; When the facts change a wise person changes their thinking. You should consider how you will feel if you have a son or daughter that one day says to you, I’m gay. Unlike them you will have a choice. Send them from your life,i.e. disown them or accept them as your child grown up. Love for your children is unconditional, even when they are different or do wrong.

    Lucia. Do you ever read what you post? You can’t seriously believe the tripe you wrote. Well I guess you can. Sad really.

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  146. Scott (1,801 comments) says:

    Agree with your comments Kris. What amazes me is that they happily use the word bigot to describe anyone who is against homosexuality. Presumably they must have some means of knowing they are right and Christians and conservatives are wrong. But what is that method? How can they know they are right?

    Like homosexuality was illegal up till 1986. But now its not only tolerated it should be celebrated. So somehow it has become right. But how can we know it is right? That is the vacuum at the heart of godless liberalism. Homosexuality may be pc but how can anyone prove or know it is right?

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  147. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    … I personally blame useful idiot enablers like Pete George and Big Bruv – but then that’s just me.

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  148. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    Kris K – Is that your own brain or are you breaking it in for an idiot?

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  149. Pete George (23,578 comments) says:

    Who tries to prove it right Scott? It’s about promoting the right of people to be as they are without victimisation from those who try and prove it is wrong, the heartless godly.

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  150. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    A study using census data from New Zealand and eight other countries suggests religion is set for extinction in all these nations, researchers say.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10714235

    Kris please switch off the light if you’re the last one out thanks

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  151. big bruv (13,906 comments) says:

    KrisK

    Is the best you can come back with?

    Shame

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  152. reid (16,473 comments) says:

    We force God out of our society and then people wonder why

    Kris I think the causes and dynamics behind this phenomena are numerous and as you know not consciously exercised by most. To me the worst one is designing society so mothers have to work, simply to maintain a middle-class: i.e. average, lifestyle.

    That is the worst because it attacks our family values directly. Mothers, women, are the communicators of language and culture and if a stranger brings up their children in their most formative years which is what happens these days, we are totally totally totally screwed long term inter-generationally.

    Any mothers reading this, you imagine what society your grandchildren are going to inherit and reflect on how to prevent that.

    As I’ve indicated above Kris homosexuality is a human condition not an illness but a state of being but as you say Kris it also has a political dimension and personally whenever I criticise “gay rights” it’s done under that dimension and boy, you could slam dunk that dimension with the utmost vigour if you looked at how the politicians play that baby seal for all its worth in pursuit of their own, evil, selfish and destructive agendas.

    The real tragedy is, the leftists have succeeded in convincing a heck of a lot of people that their political agenda disguised as gay rights is gay rights itself and this is where the useful idiots show themselves sometimes in surprising places. Personally I think said idiots need some raddling and then some dipping cause they’re infected with something and it ain’t good, but that would be unkind.

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  153. Shunda barunda (2,983 comments) says:

    I want to say good on you Damien O’Connor, you have finally rediscovered your spine to stand up to those that run roughshod over your values.
    I would also like to say that Phil Goff can go and get sodomised by uncle Helen. That callous b!%@$ and him are two drips out of the same tap, slagging off the very birthplace of the Labour movement, he has revealed his true colours in yet another of his media blunders.

    But isn’t it scary how the homosexual community can not be criticised with out throwing a queeny fit.
    This issue reveals why Labour are screwed, they have become a party of wishy washy social progressives that are so out of touch with reality that they wouldn’t know their arse from their mouth, which is probably why they talk shit so much.

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  154. Yvette (2,821 comments) says:

    Noah was the first man to plant a vineyard [Genesis 9:20], got pissed, lay naked in his tent, then cursed his sons for having seen him thus, and showed he hadn’t learned a single bloody thing from the Flood. Forget Adam and Eve, Noah buggered up the slate that God had just washed clean – so Noah screwed the meaning of all those before the Flood, and they are not worth mentioning again.

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  155. Christopher Thomson (376 comments) says:

    Rex, if it is good enough for Philosopedia to relate the information about Kinsey then it’s good enough for me.

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  156. reid (16,473 comments) says:

    Noah buggered up the slate that God had just washed clean

    No it was Abraham’s advocacy for Lot that buggered up the slate Yvette and we pay for that to this day.

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  157. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Hey Scott,

    At least some of us know which side our bread is buttered on, so to speak. I struggle to imagine what it must be like to live in a “reality” where there are no absolutes, where this same “reality” is merely a fabrication of the current “group-think”. A lot of people are going to be mighty surprised when Reality™ finally hits them squarely between the eyes. Is that “weeping and gnashing of teeth” I hear … nah, must just be my ears playing tricks on me.

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  158. Viking2 (11,471 comments) says:

    Excuse me a moment. This a few minutes ago.

    Strong earthquake rocks Japan, tsunami alert issued for Pacific

    * By staff writers
    * From: NewsCore
    * April 11, 2011 6:42PM

    JAPAN has issued a tsunami alert after a strong quake struck the east and northeast of the country, one month after the devastating March 11 earthquake-tsunami disaster.

    A strong earthquake struck Japan today, swaying buildings in the capital Tokyo and leading to a tsunami alert for the Pacific, including the Fukushima province, Kyodo news agency reported.

    The 7.1-magnitude earthquake was centered in the Fukushima prefecture, NHK reported.

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  159. James (1,338 comments) says:

    An insecure bigot named Scott says…Like homosexuality was illegal up till 1986. But now its not only tolerated it should be celebrated. So somehow it has become right. But how can we know it is right? That is the vacuum at the heart of godless liberalism. Homosexuality may be pc but how can anyone prove or know it is right?

    It just is…for some people …nature,the creator and authority of all things within it made it thus. Straight and put off by homosexuality?…me too….it repels me and is at total variance with my sexuality…but it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg so I just avoid it and leave those alone who wish to partake…. what’s so hard about that Scott?. Its not that these Labourites are Gay that’s the issue…its that they want to use force to further their own particular gay agenda….its their politics,not their sexuality that is the problem.Plenty of Gays oppose this on principal and want no special status..just equality under the law… what’s the harm in that?

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  160. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    Reid 8:31 pm,

    “Personally I think said idiots need some raddling and then some dipping cause they’re infected with something and it ain’t good, but that would be unkind.”

    Bugger being kind – I’m all out – these idiots need a rocket on a regular basis until they recognise their part in the destruction of Western civilisation, and take resposibility for it! If the Commander in Chief said, “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword”, then who are we not to do likewise in His service?! Some of these nuts have skulls so dense that one can only hope by continually hammering the message home something may eventually filter through. We live in eternal optimism!

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  161. Maggie (672 comments) says:

    The Labour Party was born out of the trade union movement – that is how it began. It is hardly surprising that unionists dominate its parliamentary representatives.

    Some, like me, see this as a strength. Union people certainly understand the issues faced by workers, are usually compassionate and articulate, all good qualities for an MP.

    Others see it as a weakness and seek to exploit the union domination to the full. Conservatives generally have a hatred of unions which, in my view, has no rational basis. No Tory has ever been able to give me a simple, unemotional reason for why they detest the organisations of working people so much.

    The National Party was born first of farmers and then of business, largely big business. It is hardly surprisding that these people tend to dominate the National ranks in Parliament. Labour people try to exploit this domination also,

    I see the domination in both parties as both a strength and a weakness. A strength because it brings some very capable people into Parliament, articulate advocates of their point of view and constituency.

    The main problem is that farmers and business people don’t understand unions, while unionists don’t understand farming or business. They continuously talk past each other and seldom listen.

    Labour has lost its way, there is no doubt. The party has a weak leader and is struggling to gain any political traction. The chances of it winning the next election are nil.

    But Labour has been around a long time and is going anywhere, it will come back ,that is inevitable.

    But one thing it has to do is to break free of its union domination. Tony Blair did many things wrong in my view but he sure got that one right and I am pleased to see Julia Gillard making noises in that direction.

    National should also spread its wings beyond farming and business. A few unionists in the party, genuine unionists not someone like Tau Henare, would do Nats the world of good.

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  162. publicwatchdog (2,598 comments) says:

    THE LAW in NZ which pertains to this matter:

    http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0082/latest/DLM304475.html?search=ts_act_Bill+of+rights+Act+1990_resel&p=1#DLM304475

    Human Rights Act 1993 No 82 (as at 03 March 2010), Public Act

    21 Prohibited grounds of discrimination

    (1) For the purposes of this Act, the prohibited grounds of discrimination are—

    (c) religious belief:

    (m) sexual orientation, which means a heterosexual, homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual orientation.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    So, Kris you cannot lawfully discriminate on the basis of a person’s ‘sexual orientation, which means a heterosexual, homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual orientation’.

    Likewise, you cannot be discriminated against for your religious beliefs, but what happens when your religious beliefs include unlawful discrimination on the basis of a person’s ‘sexual orientation, which means a heterosexual, homosexual, lesbian, or bisexual orientation’?

    How you can attribute your religious beliefs to any sort of ‘Christianity’ is quite beyond me.

    ‘God help us!’ said the athiest.

    “And just because a law is passed to “normalise” an immoral practice doesn’t make that practice any more moral. All it does is show how societal standards have slipped further into the sewer.”

    Well, Kris – good to see how your enlightened, compassionate and understanding ‘societal standards’ are uplifting us from the sewer.

    not.

    The more I read what you have to say – the more concerned I am that you may in fact be a ‘closet gay’?

    Had a bad experience somewhere, for which you may need some counseling perhaps?

    Seriously?

    What is it about gays that so jams your buttons on full?

    I’ll say it again – being gay in NZ is neither unlawful, compulsory nor contagious.

    All the best.

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  163. Viking2 (11,471 comments) says:

    Some of these nuts have skulls so dense that one can only hope by continually hammering the message home something may eventually filter through. We live in eternal optimism!
    The reverse is also true except that in that case we are dealing with bigots.

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  164. reid (16,473 comments) says:

    We live in eternal optimism!

    Aren’t we lucky Kris. It’s so warm and snug. If only the heathens knew what it feels like. The big sillies.

    Crikey Kris, just read the above. It’s a pincer attack, you take Penny, I’ll take Maggie. Mission Code: Quicksilver.

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  165. Maggie (672 comments) says:

    An MP’s exuality is his/her business and no-one else’s, with one proviso.

    If his sexuality impacts on the way he fulfills his role as MP, then voters are entitled to know his sexual preference. An extreme example would be an MP who rails publicly against homosexuality, but then picks up gay prostitutes in bars.

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  166. starboard (2,537 comments) says:

    “I’ll say it again – being gay in NZ is neither unlawful, compulsory nor contagious”

    ..but its disgusting , filthy and just not normal Penny Bright.

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  167. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    Here comes starboard to raise the tone of the discussion.

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  168. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    *Yawn* must be time for my beddy-byes …

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  169. James (1,338 comments) says:

    Despite what Penny posted the fact is you DO,as a private individual, have the right to discriminate against anyone else for any reason you may have…its called the “right to liberty” and it morally precedes any nonsense like the hopelessly flawed and contradictory Human Rights ACT. No one has the right to force themselves upon another with or without the backing of the States gun…..I disagree with Kris K but uphold and support his inalienable right to liberty and to discriminate against Gays or whoever in his personal life.

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  170. starboard (2,537 comments) says:

    are you a sodomiser Rodders?

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  171. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    Is that an offer? No, thank you.

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  172. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    I’ll pass the batton to Reid and Starboard, they can deal with the moral relativists more than adequately. Until we cross swords again …

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  173. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    Section h (iv) “intellectual or psychological disability or impairment”

    Does this mean we have to be nice to phool?

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  174. starboard (2,537 comments) says:

    you’re not my type

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  175. Viking2 (11,471 comments) says:

    No Tory has ever been able to give me a simple, unemotional reason for why they detest the organisation of working people so much.

    Maggie. You ain’t old enough to know what they were like obviously but you could go back up and read some of the posts and go read some of the history in papers past. Look up stuff about Finton patrick Walsh, Patrick Kelly, Middlemass, etc etc. Arseholes to the end of their days along with many others. Bullies, thieves and destroyers. Added nothing to the working mans life but constant doses of misery and hardship.

    No different to the last Labour Govt. really.

    The National Party was born first of farmers and then of business, largely big business. It is hardly surprisding that these people tend to dominate the National ranks in Parliament.

    Like Jamie Lee Ross? Like Bill English? like Nikki Kaye? Like Simon Power? Like Simon Bridges? Like Wayne Mapp?
    And the list goes on.
    Stupid unsupportable statement.

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  176. starboard (2,537 comments) says:

    bad term to end on there Kris…there be no crossing swords on my watch…

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  177. James (1,338 comments) says:

    I’ll say it again – being gay in NZ is neither unlawful, compulsory nor contagious”

    ..but its disgusting , filthy and just not normal Penny Bright.

    Personally I would agree that its disgusting……but it is normal occurring variant in Human societies and has been since year dot. Homosexuality is natural…..in the sense that it occurs in nature….so do redheads,albinos,dwarfs, Siamese twins etc etc What’s the big hangup some people have?

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  178. publicwatchdog (2,598 comments) says:

    # reid (6,748) Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 9:15 pm

    We live in eternal optimism!

    Aren’t we lucky Kris. It’s so warm and snug. If only the heathens knew what it feels like. The big sillies.

    Crikey Kris, just read the above. It’s a pincer attack, you take Penny, I’ll take Maggie. Mission Code: Quicksilver.”

    no! no! not the goldfish bubble attack!

    eeeek!

    I’m so tewified!

    well – I might be if I could stay awake …………….. yawn……………

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

    PS: Reid – you’re supposed to leave your dreaming until you’re asleep :)

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  179. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    … and thankyou, James.

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  180. big bruv (13,906 comments) says:

    KrisK

    “I’m all out – these idiots need a rocket on a regular basis until they recognise their part in the destruction of Western civilisation, and take resposibility (sic) for it!”

    Man..you need to drag yourself into the real world!

    Western civilisation is not in any danger of destruction, western civilisation has come a long way, some might say that we have managed to progress this far because so many of us have thrown off the shackles of religion.

    Modern western civilisation has realised that we can no longer persecute people based on the colour of their skin, their sex or their sexuality, modern civilisation has moved on, sadly in most cases religion has not.

    I am sorry if that does not sit well with you and the rest of the religious bigots Kris but given time I just know you will see that it is a good thing.

    I accept that you cannot deal with the reality that people have turned their back on your god, it is inconceivable to you that people have made this choice on their own, the only way you can process this fact is to look for some evil conspiracy behind it….well Kris, I am here to tell you there is no conspiracy, there is no evil communist plan, most of us came to the conclusion that there is no God all by ourselves.

    The sooner you come to the same conclusion the sooner the world will be a better place, we can always do with one less bigot.

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  181. starboard (2,537 comments) says:

    I say again..until liarbor remove the sodomites , lesbians , freakshows and nutbars from their group they are not fit to govern..

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  182. Kris K (3,570 comments) says:

    … just as well we’re both secure in our sexuality, Starboard ;)

    [I really am gone now!]

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  183. Rodders (1,755 comments) says:

    @starboard – I notice that you don’t include Trade Unionists on that list.

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  184. starboard (2,537 comments) says:

    ..they come under sodomisers..

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  185. publicwatchdog (2,598 comments) says:

    # starboard (1,827) Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 9:17 pm

    “I’ll say it again – being gay in NZ is neither unlawful, compulsory nor contagious”

    ..but its disgusting , filthy and just not normal Penny Bright.”

    So who is ‘normal’ Starboard?

    YOU?

    eeeek!

    You who thinks a woman’s place is in the kitchen, handcuffed to the sink?

    Yep – sounds pretty normal and 21st century to me!

    not.

    REAL enlightened.

    Oh come on ‘Starboard’ – admit it.

    You too are a secret ‘closet gay’?

    I’m sure you’ll feel SO much better when you come out of the closet? :)

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  186. Grendel (1,002 comments) says:

    and the most hilarious part of the thread is when the resident fan of imaginary friends talks about other people getting hit with reality.

    Says the man who has decided a 2000 yr old work of fiction is the basis for planning ones life and the word of a mythical being who used to show up all the time and poke his oar in, but is now suddenly quiet.

    the fact is that the god bothers won;t ever face reality, becuase one day they will just die, and thats it. no heaven, no finding out the jews were right, just rot in the ground. andi suspect that fact keeps many of them going, as they know they will never be proved wrong, becuase when they die, they won;t be around to know how wrong they are.

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  187. starboard (2,537 comments) says:

    ..well , must go and spend a Penny..ciao.

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  188. publicwatchdog (2,598 comments) says:

    # starboard (1,829) Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 9:34 pm

    ..they come under sodomisers.. ”

    Including the female trade unionists?

    Mr Normal?

    ;)

    Poor little goldfish – such a TERRIBLE case of wind – such a stream of empty little goldfish bubbles…………….

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  189. Grendel (1,002 comments) says:

    Maggie,

    actually i do understand unions, its why i hate them. i used to deal with them day in day out as part of my job. i would be dealing with an intelligent person and wonder why they needed a union to get stuff done for them, or to negotiate their pay, when the union rep was way dummer in all cases than the person they were representing.

    having to deal with union reps who defended with zealotry a teacher who dragged a child across the room by her hair because the kid (a 13 year old girl) laughed during a karakia. first they claimed it was racist, oops girl was maori, and then they decided she was stressed and the school should pay up for stressing her out for suspending her for assualting a child.

    Unions defend the incompetent and stupid, the violent and useless, becuase they don;t care about the job, or the person who has to deal with the crap job the member does, they just want as large a membership as possible to maximise their income.

    so don;t assume we know nothing about unions, we know all too well and thats why we know they are a dieing, violent relic who actually keep good employees down and favour bad employees.

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  190. starboard (2,537 comments) says:

    ..they not female Penny…they seem to have meat and vege as well as fun bags.

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  191. reid (16,473 comments) says:

    Very well said Maggie.

    Union people certainly understand the issues faced by workers, are usually compassionate and articulate, all good qualities for an MP.

    Why don’t you think conservatives are also compassionate? We are, you know.

    Conservatives generally have a hatred of unions which, in my view, has no rational basis. No Tory has ever been able to give me a simple, unemotional reason for why they detest the organisations of working people so much.

    Firstly, as a Tory, I don’t detest unions when they represent their workers against their employers according to the laws of the land which we all agree are just fine (although I personally pine for the glorious days of the ECA but that’s my own personal cross…)

    Point is, that’s just fine. Do all the collectives you want, take all the cases and do everything you do, as a union.

    This doesn’t invite you to the political table. This is the issue. You’re an organisation paid ultimately for by the very people whom you most critique. And guess what? You don’t actually achieve anything that wouldn’t be achieved anyway by your common-or-garden suburban law firm. Seriously. You don’t, do you. You don’t ever actually get anything extra that isn’t already within the stated boundaries of what was going to happen anyway under the law and prevailing market conditions, than any other competent, moderately priced private outfit could get, do you? Given this premise and feel free to disprove, how much is your total fee base for the EPMU for example. How many millions do you have to play with, to do nothing for your members other than what they were already going to get, anyway?

    It’s what you then do with those surplus millions in terms of bite the hand that feeds, which is tribal behaviour that I have observed is considered reprehensible even in the rather primitive primate world in the zoo.

    It is hardly surprisding that these people tend to dominate the National ranks in Parliament.

    Maggie, Ray Smith made this point to me once in a tutorial when he was only a tutor. He said: older people are conservative because they want to conserve. That’s all a conservative is. It’s hardly surprising therefore that conservatives sit naturally with commerce since that is all about conserving and nurturing and growing the assets. What’s wrong with that?

    The main problem is that farmers and business people don’t understand unions, while unionists don’t understand farming or business. They continuously talk past each other and seldom listen.

    Absolutely and it’s frankly a tragedy for the country. We are in fact all on the same page in terms of what we want, it’s only the path, not the objective.

    Labour has lost its way, there is no doubt. The party has a weak leader and is struggling to gain any political traction. The chances of it winning the next election are nil.

    But Labour has been around a long time and is going anywhere, it will come back ,that is inevitable.

    But one thing it has to do is to break free of its union domination. Tony Blair did many things wrong in my view but he sure got that one right and I am pleased to see Julia Gillard making noises in that direction.

    National should also spread its wings beyond farming and business. A few unionists in the party, genuine unionists not someone like Tau Henare, would do Nats the world of good.

    One of the best segments of wisdom you’ve ever imparted Maggie, thank you.

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  192. publicwatchdog (2,598 comments) says:

    # starboard (1,831) Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 9:39 pm

    ..they not female Penny…they seem to have meat and vege as well as fun bags.”

    You know all of these female union officials do you Starboard?

    (I would seriously doubt that you knew any female union official, actually………)

    I actually have an extensive union background (never a paid official and never a members of the Labour party) – so are you going to put me – who you do not know from a bar of soap – into your category – ‘not female’?

    Think you’d have a BIG argument with my boyfriend on that point – before you lost – horribly – ‘Starboard’.

    :)

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  193. Maggie (672 comments) says:

    reid, thanks for your comments I know they are sincere.

    I’ll try and respond as best I can.

    1) I know there are compassionate conservatives. I have met some who are a great deal more caring than many so-called socialists. But, overall, after 63 years, I am sure there are far more caring lefties than righties.

    In my experience, caring Tories sometimes try to hide this from the world. Bill, a mate of mine, has a son who is a ranting rightwinger. Yet at weekends, without telling anyone, he helps out at a foodbank. He didn’t even tell his parents. When they found out he told them: “For Gods sake don’t tell my mates at the National Party – they’ll kill me!” True, funny, but also sad……

    2) Of course unions don’t have any more right to sit at the political table than any other group or individual.

    3) From here we part company. I cannot disagree more strongly with your next points on unionism. To plant a flag in the ground I have been one of the youngest NZers ever to be national leader of a union (a small but influential one) and later spent 15 years as a union employee, senior advocate for a major union.

    I do not believe lawyers can ever produce better results in any negotiation than an experienced union team. Of course the law and market conditions set the scene for any negotiation, but within those confines a myriad of results are possible. Quite simply unions get far better results than any lawyer ever could and here’s why:

    Lawyers set the law on a pedestal, it is black and white for them. For non lawyer unionists and sensible employers, the law isn’t a strait jacket, but a sweater that can never be unpicked, but can be modified to fit and provide an acceptable outcome.

    An example: Take a dismissal that is challenged. a personal grievance. The parties agree a measure of compensation is appropriate, but dispute the sum. Compensation falls within two categories, loss of wages or a payment for injury to feelings etc. In my example the employer makes an offer based on lost wages only, which are taxable. Compensation for injury to feelings etc isn’t.

    So the two parties reach a deal. The lost wages are paid in full to the worker and described as compensation. That way the worker gets the lot and the employer pays no more.

    Is it legal? Well, that’s debatable. It’s borderline. But it works. I have settled hundreds of PGs on that basis, so has every union.

    The point is it gets a settlement. It is pragmatic and gets the job done.

    Would a lawyer ever be part of such a deal? All I can say is I’ve never found one who would.

    The same applies to contract negotiations. What the two parties are looking for is something that works, settles the contract. Pragmatism rules, not strict legalities. Its the real world, not the courtroom.

    My last PG was done a few years ago, after my retirement and pro bono. The employer chose a lawyer to represent him. When the brief announced his identity at the hearing the mediator looked at me, rolled his eyes and gave a huge sigh. He knew that a simple case would suddenly become complicated, the look said: “This is going to be a long, long day”. It was.

    The grievance WAS settled but only when the employer disagreed with his lawyer’s advice, told him so, and made an offer the lawyer had spent hours arguing against. Then we all shook hands and went home.

    I’ve no doubt the lawyer was being paid by the hour. All I got was sincere thanks and a bottle of scotch!

    PS: Not all, oldies are conservative, look at me…….I know and like Ray, but don’t agree with his definition of a conservative. To me, a conservative is someone generally satisfied with the status quo, he likes things the way they are. A left winger wants to reform things.

    Once again my thanks.

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  194. Rich Prick (1,705 comments) says:

    For fucks sake Penny, cut the superfluous shite from your posts, organise coherent sentences and work them into paragraphs, like you should have been taught at school. And lay off the full-stop key, we have an issue round here with that.

    Then we might read the shite you type.

    Pubic watch-dog with fleas, tics and fly-blow
    Attendee : At the hydatits drenching station
    http://wakjob.underpressure.fuckedup.sillybint.com

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  195. James (1,338 comments) says:

    At heart socialists and conservatives are much the same.Both are opposed to change and people making their own way and following their own values.They both would,and have used force to get their way Classic liberals /libertarians by genuine contrast support individual freedom and human prosperity.

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  196. Rich Prick (1,705 comments) says:

    Maggie, thanks for that long essay. When I fire a useless fucker, he’s out the door, I don’t ponder all that shite you mention. It means nothing. That’s the real world. Unions, worse than genital warts, and that would be the employees’ view too after I’ve had costs awards against every single one of them, paid by the union I suppose.

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  197. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    RP – Penny seems to write more like you-know-who every day.

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  198. Rich Prick (1,705 comments) says:

    Put it away, is phil back in prision? He has been very quiet (God I feel sorry for his kid, who must just about to reach the peddles of the get-away car, and may be of age for phil to get a job).

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  199. Yvette (2,821 comments) says:

    Since this all seems to be deviating a little from the original thread, i would repeat –
    “the self-serving unionist Little jumps lesbian Louisa Wall five places up Labour’s List”
    Why should Damien O’Connor apologise for telling the truth?

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  200. reid (16,473 comments) says:

    But, overall, after 63 years, I am sure there are far more caring lefties than righties.

    overall, after 63 years, I am sure there are far more caring lefties than righties

    Maggie caring has many aspects including results.

    Add up the caring results of the 5th Labour govt which are still being played out. All things considered, did Helen leave us as a nation in a good position?

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  201. reid (16,473 comments) says:

    Maggie sorry for that accidental repeat. Didn’t catch it during edit mode.

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  202. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    RP – he got banned a few weeks ago, bizarre paranoid anti-DPF rant. I forget how long for, Couple of months? Condemned to spend time on his own blog, listening to the sounds of silence.

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  203. Rich Prick (1,705 comments) says:

    Yvette, the thought of the union/rainbow faction jumping anyone in Labour, just conjures a thought of an over-used swiss ball, and its yikky.

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  204. Put it away (2,878 comments) says:

    Yvette – “Why should Damien O’Connor apologise for telling the truth?”

    It’s an odd one isn’t it? The same people who celebrate the rainbow types “being true to themselves” would like Damien O’Connor to not be true to himself.

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  205. Maggie (672 comments) says:

    Rich Prick (755) Says:

    April 11th, 2011 at 11:21 pm
    Maggie, thanks for that long essay. When I fire a useless fucker, he’s out the door, I don’t ponder all that shite you mention. It means nothing. That’s the real world. Unions, worse than genital warts, and that would be the employees’ view too after I’ve had costs awards against every single one of them, paid by the union I suppose.

    RP there are times when you are so deliberately extreme and obscene it is impossible to take you seriously..

    But, for the fun of it, I’ll play along.

    To be awarded costs, you must take part in two hearings. The first is a mediation, the second a costs hearing. This will take the guts of two days, one day for each.

    About 75% of employers awarded costs get $2000 or less.

    So you waste your time and money seeking costs when the award doesn’t meet the cost of your own time, let alone the cost of a lawyer for two days?

    Still it give your workers a break from you, I guess. I suspect they need one.

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  206. Rich Prick (1,705 comments) says:

    Maggie, we do it to teach them a lesson, who cares what it costs. A couple of bucks hurts the useless. Not us.

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  207. Rich Prick (1,705 comments) says:

    FYI Maggie, I am a lawyer. Worst of all a corporate lawyer.

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  208. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    I’m a right-winger but far from a conservative, and I don’t hate unions, though I do hate the way teacher unions take out large ads proclaiming their love of children when everyone knows they’re the biggest bullies in the school.

    But what I really hate is the use of the word ‘worker’ to describe manual workers only, with the insulting implication that those who create their jobs do not work.

    If only!

    As for Damien O’Connor, his use of the word ‘gaggle’ (surely ‘giggle’ would be better?) got the issue top billing on CloseUp, so that’s a win.

    If he hadn’t been so colourful, we’d all be none the wiser about Labour’s prejudices.

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  209. publicwatchdog (2,598 comments) says:

    # Rich Prick (758) Says:
    April 11th, 2011 at 11:10 pm

    For fucks sake Penny, cut the superfluous shite from your posts, organise coherent sentences and work them into paragraphs, like you should have been taught at school. And lay off the full-stop key, we have an issue round here with that.

    Then we might read the shite you type.

    Pubic watch-dog with fleas, tics and fly-blow
    Attendee : At the hydatits drenching station
    http://wakjob.underpressure.fuckedup.sillybint.com

    Cameron?
    How lovely to hear from you – another level-headed, rational, well-reasoned post! ;)

    Given that David has not died and made you the boss – think I’ll continue to exercise the freedom of expression you deny me on your blog?

    “FYI Maggie, I am a lawyer. Worst of all a corporate lawyer.”

    Yeah right – you SO sound like a lawyer Cameron? –

    So why don’t you defend yourself in Court?

    Given that almost every poster boy/grrl (including yourself Cameron?) has dropped the ad hominum petty abusive adjectives before my name, and now just refer to me as ‘Penny’ – I take that to indicate that most, including yourself, are actually reading what I have to say?

    You may not like my considered opinions – but I think most of you are choosing not to ignore them.

    Given that I usually back up what I think with facts and evidence to help explain why I think that way (unlike many – including yourself Cameron?), I think it helps make my considered opinions worth considering.

    Unlike a lot of your utter ‘shite’ Cameron?

    oops!…… substitute ‘shite’ for ‘ill-considered opinion’……………………………………………………………. ;)

    Which, of course you have every right to express?

    I don’t recall trying to tell you what ‘shite’ should write, how you should write your ‘shite’ , or ask David from preventing you from writing ‘shite’?

    Unlike yourself Cameron?

    :)

    You’ve made my night!

    Good on you.

    All the best.

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  210. publicwatchdog (2,598 comments) says:

    Now this is the sort of ‘campaigning unionism’ upon which I’m sure we’ll all agree?

    “We do not have a budget deficit,” Jeff Johnson, president of the Washington State Labor Council, one of the rally’s main organizers, told the crowd. “We have a social services deficit, we have a jobs deficit, we have a revenue deficit, and we have a deficit of leadership.”

    Yep – about time we had here in NZ:

    Social welfare – not corporate welfare’
    Public monies spent on the public majority – not the corporate minority’!

    (You’d agree with that wouldn’t you Cameron? ;)

    Seen this?

    http://www.nwcn.com/news/Thousands-flood-Capitol-to-oppose-budget-cuts-119534779.html
    Third day of ‘sleep-in’ at Washington state capitol

    by Associated Press

    NWCN.com

    Posted on April 9, 2011 at 11:19 AM

    Updated Saturday, Apr 9 at 12:04 PM

    OLYMPIA, Wash. – Thousands of union members from all over Washington poured into the state Capitol Friday, calling on lawmakers to “put people first” by ending corporate tax breaks and painful cuts to public programs.

    The protest was by far the largest of four days of boisterous demonstrations in Olympia over spending cuts legislators are considering in order to help close a looming $5 billion budget deficit for the next two-year cycle.

    Buses began arriving at the Capitol hours before the noon rally, carrying musicians, iron workers, firefighters and others concerned about the scarcity of jobs, the rising cost of college and the security of their pensions. The Washington State Patrol estimated 7,000 people gathered outside the main legislative building, while labor group leaders put the figure closer to 12,000.

    Protesters said they hoped the demonstration would serve as a powerful reminder to lawmakers of who their decisions are affecting as they work to craft the state’s next two-year budget. The House plans to vote Friday or Saturday on a budget plan that includes $4.4 billion in cuts, while the Senate will introduce its own proposal next week.

    “We need to remind them that we need changes right now, not later,” said Tim Haslett, an electrical worker and father of five from Seattle who has been unemployed for most of the past two years. “I’m trying to do everything I can to pay for my youngest daughter to go to college next year, but I don’t know how I’m going to be able to do that if there are no jobs.”

    “We do not have a budget deficit,” Jeff Johnson, president of the Washington State Labor Council, one of the rally’s main organizers, told the crowd. “We have a social services deficit, we have a jobs deficit, we have a revenue deficit, and we have a deficit of leadership.”

    Many of the signs blanketing the crowd focused on the need to discontinue tax breaks for the financial services and other industries before resorting to more cuts. One read, “My community college teacher pays more tax than General Electric,” while another declared, “We the People v. We the Corporation.”

    Good on them.

    Penny Bright
    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com

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  211. DJP6-25 (1,387 comments) says:

    kowtow 1:25. G is for gherkin perhaps. I’m not sure how tasty the sandwich would be though.

    cheers

    David Prosser

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  212. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    I always thought it was a gaggle of geese.

    Won’t the average heterosexual goose on the street be annoyed by being compared to a Labour list member?

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  213. nasska (11,535 comments) says:

    Bobbie black @ 8.25am

    There are probably few forms of life on this planet that wouldn’t be annoyed by being compared to a Labour list member.

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  214. Maggie (672 comments) says:

    Rich Prick (758) Says:

    April 11th, 2011 at 11:57 pm
    FYI Maggie, I am a lawyer. Worst of all a corporate lawyer.

    Well at least you recognise corporate lawyers are worse than ordinary lawyers. I agree. They are even worse than shark lawyers, tinpot lawyers, lying lawyers and lawyers with paper hats on their heads.

    This could be a magic moment RP, a genuine breakthrough. At last, we agree on something! When you reckon you are shite, how could I break your heart by differing?

    Louis, this could be the start of a beautiful friendship. My place or yours, darling?

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  215. Maggie (672 comments) says:

    Rich Prick (758) Says:

    April 11th, 2011 at 11:34 pm
    Put it away, is phil back in prision? He has been very quiet (God I feel sorry for his kid, who must just about to reach the peddles of the get-away car, and may be of age for phil to get a job).

    A corporate lawyer who doesn’t know the difference between peddling something and pedalling away? Surely not. RP, peddling is what you do to attract clients. Pedalling is what you do when you stuff their case up and cost them millions.

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  216. Bobbie black (507 comments) says:

    I hate it when lawyers stick things they know they shouldn’t on my bill.

    Quack! Sorry, I meant Honk!

    Ok whose up for some more goose jokes?

    Nasska?

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