The London riots
August 9th, 2011 at 11:59 am by David FarrarTechnically I suppose the England riots, as they are also in Birmingham.
Stuff reports:
Some have branded the disturbances as a cry for help from impoverished areas reeling from the government’s harsh austerity cuts to tackle a big budget deficit
A cry for help?
It sounds like it might take the Police days to regain control of the streets. I wonder if they may have to call the Armed Forces in to assist?
August 9th, 2011 at 12:04 pm
How about a cry of “number one rifleman, the man in the yellow t-shirt – one round, go on.”
“Number two rifleman… never mind they’re going home.”
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 12:15 pm
I think the Met can do without comparisons to the Syrian security services . . .
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 12:16 pm
Dave Cameron has been too busy slashing the army, as well as the police.
Vote:He needs to restore these cuts and take the money from the UK foreign aid budget which is set to rise by billions- in fact enough to remove the rise in UK tuition fees.
The UK political establishment also needs to see that such riots along with the resultant looting are the direct result of touchy feely politically-correct multi-culturalism.
The UK police have been prevented from taking strong action against the drug dealers and gangs that prevail in many inner city black communities by a liberal elite who scream racism at every opportunity.
The education establishment have accepted gang culture as part of black growing up.
And then we have the issue of welfare, under classes, a lack of personal responsibility, a lack of respect for society and authority.
Finally, there is the issue of mass immigration. The bulk of the rioters are non-white and there is obviously a racial element to it, even when the rioters attack their own communities. They are embarassing the decent, law abiding immigrants too.
I have commented at my place that the riots should bring about the death of liberal England as many of the tenets of liberalism and progressivism will be found as factors behind the violence and mayhem that is underway.
Far from extreme, such commentary will be found in mainstream papers like the Mail and Telegraph as well.
Rather than the tories carrying the can for cuts that have not happened, the finger of blame can be pointed at the left!
August 9th, 2011 at 12:19 pm
“A cry for help?” Pigs arse. The direct result of decades of bent left leaning government and failing immigration, welfare and justice policies.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 12:20 pm
I think the met are fucked in terms of tactical capability, equipement and support.
The army is up.
You boo hoo about it after the fuckers are stopped from attacking people and homes. Not even mentioning childrens hospitals.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 12:22 pm
Time for a group hug methinks.
How about a great big family group conference?
What lefty bullshit will they dream up now?
Cos one thing is sure as shit, the left will not have the brain cells to see how their social and economic policies and cause this stuff, they’ll double down and call for more left wing idiocy and it will just get worse.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 12:23 pm
Mainland British police tactics for decades has been to stand off and “absorb” the violence of illegal assemblies etc.
There is very little “offense” in this tactic. It’s all defense so you give control to the criminals.Even if they are identified and arrested after the event judges give ‘em bugger all. Where are the murderers of PC Blakelock?
Rioters have learned from this soft tactic and you now see the results.
Contrast mainland policing with that of Ulster in the recent past. (they too now have a PC body which is a “service” not a “force”.)
How is it acceptable to fire plastic bullets at British citizens in Ulster but not so at looters and arsonists in London.
This is political correctness gone mad.
Politicians,particularly of the left and the media bear alot of responsibility for this situation.
Enoch predicted this and the political elite and media hammered him.
And yes arsonists should be shot. People live in those buildings.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 12:24 pm
London is Burning.-The rioters are looting and behaving like Feral animals.
Vote:I’d like to see to leftie media try to blame this one on ‘Racist Police’….
August 9th, 2011 at 12:29 pm
Once this is all sorted, and it will be, the people on CCTV will be rounded up. May I suggest the following then take place.
Those people involved in the looting and vandalism will be taken back to the shops and areas they attacked in the broad light of day, where they will be attached to the shop by a length of chain, which will remain in place until they have cleaned up the mess.
Then, in a nod to the past, a few sets of stocks can be set up in riot torn neighbourhoods, where the people who have had thier homes and neighbourhoods threatened will be able to meet and greet the lowlife scum who caused this, and exchange a few frank opinions.
Keep the name and shame campaign on the front burner, and it should slow down any re-occurence.
Any chance we can get News of the World to hack thier phones?
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 12:40 pm
A sign of the times.. Recreational Rioters..
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 12:44 pm
Nice to see the line-up of reasons for these riots expressed here:
1. touchy feely politically-correct multi-culturalism
2. decades of bent left leaning government
3. immigration
3. left-wing social and economic policies
4. weak policing – break out the (plastic) bullets
5. media
Have we left anything out?
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 12:47 pm
I’m not sure the British Army would be willing to be dragged into this.
Even under Aid to the Civil Power thing.
British soldiers don’t like having to shoot civilians.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 12:50 pm
Milksop
You left out the Human Rights Act introduced by Blair .
Why am I not surprised that the usual suspects,Luc etc are out in force defending this shit?
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 12:53 pm
Tripewriter,
Didn’t stop ‘em in Belfast or Londonderry (God Bless ‘em)
Both those cities are British.
And no one is asking the army to shoot unarmed civilians,arsonists are another matter.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 12:55 pm
Mikenmild- Nope I think that pretty much has it covered…You will be cheering these rioters on from the comfort of home no doubt?? ‘Solidarity’ and ‘smash the Police State brothers’??
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 12:57 pm
I don’t see how lighting shit on fire and stealing flat screen TVs and bottles of whiskey is a cry for help. I think pull out the plastic bullets. Civil disobedience is still disobedience.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 1:04 pm
Sounds like they’ll be building hideouts in the cities and leading a guerrilla campaign against the Conservative government, emerging periodically to fire-bomb organs of capitalism like offices and distributing underground anarchist literature!
Oh wait – wrong thread. This is the sort of actual extremism whose description requires watering down rather than hypothetical extremism being talked up.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 1:06 pm
On the home front I think making the fake friars pay $1.3 M is a good move. I’m sure the rioters calculate the response from the liberal establishment before they burn buses etc.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 1:08 pm
Trypewriter
Vote:‘British soldiers don’t like having to shoot civilians’ – unless they’re Iraqi, Afghans or Irish!
kowtow/Longknives – not defending this, just wondering when we’ll see it here and in all the other countries that are similar to Britain.
August 9th, 2011 at 1:10 pm
mikenmild (1,704) Says:
August 9th, 2011 at 12:44 pm
Nice to see the line-up of reasons for these riots expressed here:
1. touchy feely politically-correct multi-culturalism
2. decades of bent left leaning government
3. immigration
3. left-wing social and economic policies
4. weak policing – break out the (plastic) bullets
5. media
Have we left anything out?
……………………………………………………….
Of course the green party’s answer is : inequality.
One thing I’ve noticed is that when your neighborhood goes to the pack, the hood families turn the tables by using their muscle to create fear and thereby a sort of respect/ importance… Not the the liberal left would have lived in those sort of places…
The liberal left see people as sweet little babies until acted upon by the capitalist system.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 1:13 pm
Great attitude :-/
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 1:16 pm
http://melaniephillips.com/london-descends-into-anarchy
The Met is paralysed at the top.
HJ
Vote:As for the fake friars, they were found to be genuinely concerned that others were being killed by our US spybase.
I certainly hope that that the criminal (political) finding has no bearing on this case, it is only fair that they all share the $1.2m payment equally.
Someone mentioned to me that they have family trusts in place to protect assets, with luck they won’t.
August 9th, 2011 at 1:18 pm
Kowtow and M&M:
I was going to say, ‘unless they’re Paddies’, but I thought that might have been offensive to the Irish and to Catholics, of which I was once both.
I have been told by ex-British Army soldiers who now live here that they came to hate some of the Irish. One I know, a Welshman, has never forgiven the Irish for some of the things he said he witnessed there.
On the other hand, he has fond memories of Yemenis and Omanis from about the same era.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 1:18 pm
Disgraceful , but serves the UK right.
Thats what happens, when you import a huge number of lowly educated unemployable people from asia , eastern europe , the Caribbean and Africa, house them in ghettos, and see what happens. English culture is in danger of becoming a minority in the queens country.
I have a youngish kiwi relative with university education and had an employer who would hire them tried to get a work permit for the UK but was refused. Then, you look at the types of people they do let in and you wonder why.
I recall when I was living in the uk a few years ago, the council hired people to train immigrants on the use of modern appliances such as ovens and washing machines.
May NZ learn from this.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 1:19 pm
http://gizmodo.com/riots/
It doesn’t seem to be an isolated issue anymore.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 1:26 pm
Lived in London for 10 years, and just back from a long visit. Everything Ive heard is that the majority of this is oppotunistic tossers out for a lark, grab as much as they can and vanish, not even slightly politically or socially motivated. Most streets have empty shops, and they are doing it bloody hard over there, make no mistake. I saw London change ethnically when I was there, with the huge influx of Eastern Europeans and recently (last 10 years) the growth of Muslim communities.
Social unrest isnt new, and there is a certain level of repressed rage against ‘the man’ at the moment. But the people I know in the areas hit say the same things – its scumbags looting, not believers protesting.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 1:38 pm
Most reports say “the riots started after police shot dead a man…”. Reading further the police officer was fired upon first. Funny how the headline, “police shoot dead…” brings out the media looking for a good story and scapegoat.
The rioters are up for anything. They’re not protesting. Bored underclass, teenage dads from estates living for the moment. Probably never voted in their lives. And the West Ham game was cancelled. Hooligans. Wonder if any All Black replica shirts have been nicked.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 1:42 pm
Here’s a sad truth, expressed by a Londoner when asked by a television reporter: Is rioting the correct way to express your discontent?
“Yes,” said the young man. “You wouldn’t be talking to me now if we didn’t riot, would you?”
The TV reporter from Britain’s ITV had no response. So the young man pressed his advantage. “Two months ago we marched to Scotland Yard, more than 2,000 of us, all blacks, and it was peaceful and calm and you know what? Not a word in the press. Last night a bit of rioting and looting and look around you.”
http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/08/07/7292281-the-sad-truth-behind-london-riot
An interesting point of view.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 1:46 pm
This type of thing should be unacceptable in society. But even if the bastards looting are caught, they’ll be let off easy by some sappy judge.
I would like it if NZ made some laws that meant if you involved as a violent or destructive protestor in a situation like this, that your punishment would be much more severe than a misdemeanour vandalism charge. Ten years locked up would be good. Sure you’d get the families bleating that the sentence is unfair, but so is having your shop destroyed and robbed. We need to worry less about making things fair for the criminals, because they don’t give a shit about being fair for anyone else.
I’m glad the UK cops shot that drug dealer – at least they did something right. But they really need to clamp down on this rioting business hard (with the army) for the protection of its citizens.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 1:49 pm
***A cry for help?***
No, it’s angry black thugs seeking revenge for the death of Mark Duggan*. Enoch Powell tried to warn the clueless Brit’s that the US had problems with riots and crime in African American communities so importing large numbers from the West Indies might be risky.
A comment from a blog site:
* “justice against the pigs. retribution and revenge is ours. fuck what the scum police account is – we know they lie and deceive to suit their needs. a few burned pig cars is nothing compared to the life of our brother. this is just the beginning. from all sides of the city, from all corners of the country, we will seek revenge. ”
http://sonsofmalcolm.blogspot.com/2011/08/brothers-take-revenge-on-p
Vote:igs-in-north.html
August 9th, 2011 at 1:56 pm
Look, I’m not going to get all hysterical and use the “Z” word, but… these rioters aren’t eating anyone are they? No hunger for brains?
Just want to be quite sure.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 2:02 pm
I hope some on the right can discuss this without sounding like the Norwegian on defending the NorthWesternEuropean homeland from immigrants.
As someone on the left I will simply note that there are two things in play
1. alienation from the wider society because of a sense of insecurity about getting by or getting on – this includes local underclass English born people of all groups (old migrant stock as in Celtic, Germanic, Viking or Norman or more recent). At the moment government budget cut-backs, higher unemployment and poor economic propsects exacerbate this.
2. an anti-establishment protest hijacked by a mob power mentality – and this leads to the hooliganism of basic teen vanadalism and then the awareness that property can be looted (German, Viking and Norman invasion and homeland security).
Cameron needs some LAVS’s in the streets. Maybe John Key can offer to send some of our spare ones over on lend-lease.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 2:06 pm
***I hope some on the right can discuss this without sounding like the Norwegian on defending the NorthWesternEuropean homeland from immigrants.***
They should be more careful (at least target highly skilled migrants) given that all the rapes in Oslo in 2009 were by non-norwegians.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 2:21 pm
Bob R
I should laugh at that comment, but it really is tragic. Is Norway different from Britain, or did they just choose to have rapists instead of rioters?
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 2:21 pm
Moments like these, you need some kind of military to protect the citizens from dangerous armed mobs.
You’re no longer disadvantaged, at-risk yoof when there’s 500 of you and you’re carrying on where the luftwaffe let off in 1941.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 2:28 pm
So importing unskilled immigrants is as dangerous as trading in slaves for the safety of the property of white men and the virtue of white woman bob …
The FBI BSU in the 1980′s did some worldwide research on crime and concluded that it was predominant amongst any ethnic group comparatively disadvantaged in a society with income and wealth disparity – they could have worked this out studying the immigrant groups arriving in the USA and also noted their progress into the middle class over a few generations. Of course one group was exceptional for so many of them never made out of underclass status across many generations – because their profile was established in servitude and exploitation and being subjected to racism. The research concluded that nations like Japan and those in Scandinavia were relatively crime free because they were so much more mono-cultural and egalitarian. Thus the risk of a global market economy driving growing income and wealth equality within nations when immigration occurs concurent with this (especially when in any downturn immigrants do not have opportunity to progress and or their failure to integrate into the economy is inter-generational).
I would conclude that race/ethnic group difference is an issue but it is not the cause of the probelm and racism and bigotry will only make the problem worse.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 2:36 pm
@ mikenmild,
That comment was specific to Norway. They have particular issues with poorly educated muslim migrants from a much less liberal culture.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 2:38 pm
“Cameron needs some LAVS’s in the streets. Maybe John Key can offer to send some of our spare ones over on lend-lease”.
Vote:No point they will just break down
August 9th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
Sorry Bob, I thought you were trying to draw a parallel between Oslo crime and the London riots. Now I don’t know what you were trying to do.
Good comment SPC.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
@ SPC
I think Amy Chua’s book ‘World on Fire’ addresses similar issues. Groups do tend to have different average crime rates, (Chinese tending to be at the low end) so immigration needs to be selective when recruiting from higher risk populations (similar to the statistical discrimination as applied by insurance companies).
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 2:40 pm
Thank god they’re only rioters.
We’ll know they’re terrorists the moment they start chanting Tax Cuts. Tax Cuts
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 2:45 pm
The #riotcleanup hashtag in Twitter is heartening.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 2:47 pm
As well as average crime rates rates of corruption should be a factor in recruiting from high risk populations
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 2:50 pm
The research did not indicate that different “groups” had different crime rates but that crime level was related to a groups place in a wider society – it’s a relative thing (and context changes from society to society and across periods of time within the same society as the progress of immigrant populations into the USA has shown) not something that can be stamped on this or that “identity” group.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 3:02 pm
Most reports say “the riots started after police shot dead a man…”. Reading further the police officer was fired upon first.
Yes, they were trying to arrest him – and they came prepared. Unfortunately he opened fire rather than surrender to the law.
There was a situation a few years back in New York where a well known drug dealer opened fire on police and was killed. Suddenly he was a pillar of the community and all sorts of witnesses testified that he was unarmed and surrendering. That is, until it was shown that the witnesses were lying.
I don’t even think they care about witnesses in this one, the police shot someone so ergo an injustice has occurred and rioting is justified.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 3:06 pm
Any Police shooting in the UK could set off this sortof reaction. Not saying that it is justified, and the full circumstancesof the incident aren’t clear anyway, but Police relationships with some communities there have been troubled for a long time. That’s something the Police themselves have tried to address, but there’s a legacy of distruct and hate that seems to be easy to stir up into violence, plus a fair few thugs always keen to join in.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 3:13 pm
Perhaps not.
The Guardian understands that initial ballistics tests on a bullet, found lodged in a police radio worn by an officer during Thursday’s incident, suggested it was police issue – and therefore had not been fired by Duggan
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 3:29 pm
***The research did not indicate that different “groups” had different crime rates but that crime level was related to a groups place in a wider society ***
Yes, I made that observation on other criminology data as discussed in this book “Crime: A Biosocial Analysis” by US criminologist Anthony Walsh.
http://tinyurl.com/3nhe4ea
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 3:29 pm
Off the top of my head 2 recent shootings in Britain, Moat and Menendez.
Menendez was in London and no riots. He was Brazilian,
Moat was shot and killed in the north. He was white.(and a crim) No riots.
But shoot a drug dealer in London and if he’s from a “troubled community ” it’s all go.
Enoch was right.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 3:36 pm
***Enoch was right.***
Well yes, but that goes against the prevailing ideology so it’s like saying capitalism is good while living in Stalinist Russia.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 3:39 pm
Fairfacts Media (248) Says: “The UK political establishment also needs to see that such riots along with the resultant looting are the direct result of touchy feely politically-correct multi-culturalism.
The UK police have been prevented from taking strong action against the drug dealers and gangs that prevail in many inner city black communities by a liberal elite who scream racism at every opportunity.”
——————————–
“Strong action” doesn’t work against drugs. Even when you execute people who traffick in drugs (a horrible despicable crime in and of itself) you do not stop people from trafficking drugs.
Riots like these are a direct consequence of the prohibition of drugs. These communities have high rates of drug use and thus they feel the effects of prohibition more harshly than other areas. They have more people who use drugs, more people who therefore have criminal records for drugs and more people who are imprisoned for drugs. Consequently their communities don’t function and opportunist criminals, like those doing the looting, are bred in large numbers.
Contrary to your conservative dogma, liberal policies do work, such as those tried in Portugal which has seen a decrease in drug use amongst teenagers as well as reduced HIV infection and increased uptake of drug treatment for addicts. But don’t let the facts get in the way of blaming it on “multiculturalism”.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 3:49 pm
Sigh,
this is an awful situation.
But let us not over-reach. These riots have arisen in England due to immigration policies enacted circa 1995 +/- 5 years with no concurrent/parallel social and fiscal consideration.
Its not a Labor or Tory discussion, it is a SOCIETY discussion.
FWIW I think that those that riot for a lark are scum, deserving of the stocks at the very least (thereby agreeing with you Right of way is Way of Right @ 12:29 pm).
Also, I think a little bit of my soul just died because of what I’m about to say but: if this rioting continues much longer, I think Murray from 12:04 pm might have had the right answer… mate, that depresses the hell out of me, but there’s 7 million people in London and 6.695 million of them aren’t rioting.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 3:57 pm
I am not sure that this is a racial issue. It seems to be more about welfarism, and the sense of entitlement among underpriviliged Britons.
If Cameron has any balls he will declare a state of emergency and martial law. That might stop a few of these simians in their tracks.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 3:59 pm
I fail to see how this can be ascribed so confidently to immigration policies.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 4:05 pm
Blair must have been to see Planet of the Apes.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 4:05 pm
you fail to see a lot of things mikey…
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 4:09 pm
***mikenmild (1,716) Says:
I fail to see how this can be ascribed so confidently to immigration policies.***
As Katharine Birbalsingh points out, the rioters are predominantly afro-caribbean. Someone at some point following WWII thought it was a good idea to import low skill afro-caribbeans. Now they have Operation Trident, a special police unit set up specifically to deal with gun crime in that community.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/katharinebirbalsingh/100099830/these-riots-were-about-race-why-ignore-the-fact/
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 4:18 pm
I know one or two expat ex-squaddies and I can assure you that they’d be right up for slotting a few of those feral chavs.
I think they’d be more than happy with a plane ticket and a small house in London as payment – kind of a return of the Fencibles deal.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 4:21 pm
Bob R
I think I’d like to see more detail on that than just what bloggers say (not that bloggers aren’t great, but they’re not exactly in the accuracy business!). Same with the details of the shooting incident, where there are conflicting reports. It’s natural to rush to judgement, just like the shooting in Norway, people tend to use these sorts of events to say ‘I told you so’ without bothering much about what might actually have happened.
Having said that, if this was solely Blacks, does that really takle us very far towards causes or solutions, or lessons forother countries? Some, like you, say Enoch Powell was right, others, like Pharmachick blame more recent migrants, while others might blame Muslim immigration.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 4:25 pm
Not solely, but predominantly.
You’re assuming there are solutions. For starters they may wish to be more selective in terms of their immigration policies. Wouldn’t that be sensible? Paying people to leave might be cost effective in the long run, but unlikely to be politically acceptable.
Also, making contraception a condition of welfare would also help stem the growth of the underclass.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 4:32 pm
oohh..police station in Birmingham set alight..wheres the army ???
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 4:34 pm
and watching the news at 4.30 its spot the white looter im afraid.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 4:36 pm
weihana FFS
riots like these are a consequence of…….criminal behavouur,individual choices made by law breakers.
The army will only be called out if this goes on for longer and the police become overstreched.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 4:50 pm
kowtow – that’s rather circular. You’re saying their criminal behaviour is a consequence of their…. criminal behaviour. Not particularly insightful.
Fact is prohibition promotes crime and some communities will be more affected than others. Arresting these rioters (and they SHOULD be arrested) is the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff. Not arresting them for victimless crimes and treating drug addiction like the sickness it is lowers crime, reduces the harmful effects of drug addiction, and promotes healthier communities. It’s not a perfect solution, and perhaps not an overall solution at all. But it will improve things and make it less likely that gang members and other criminals are carrying guns around to further their criminal enterprises.
One thing from the conservative side I will acknowledge is that importing poor unskilled people is generally a bad idea. But now that you’ve got them you’ve got to make the best of it and prohibition and marginalization will not help towards that end.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 5:00 pm
Drug takers and pushers are criminals. They, like the looters and arsonists are also making choices,criminal choices.
Vote:The war that drug pushers and users wage on society is real.There are also numerous victims.
Drugs kill. Fuck off.
August 9th, 2011 at 5:09 pm
Before we conclude that it’s all about race, might like to observe the complexions of pikey rioters in these photos:
http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2011/03/london-riots-il.html
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 5:12 pm
White? Black? “Asian”? Muslim?
Capitalism? Socialism? Democratic Socialism? Multiculturalism?
Possibly, but I think I may now read Life At The Bottom, and Our Culture, What’s Left Of It.
They seem appropriate.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 5:18 pm
England seems to riot relatively easily – there is something in the national psyche that ‘likes a bit of bovver’. I remember seeing the UK Poll tax riots of 1990 on the TV news (nothing to do with race), many of the rioters seemed to be anarchists and thugs looking for a good time.
Vote:And that’s without mentioning the football…
August 9th, 2011 at 5:22 pm
F’n Aye… Staunch Turkish business owners defend their street from gangs of chavs – without police help:
http://hackneycitizen.co.uk/2011/08/09/turkish-shopkeepers-stand-firm-rioters-dalston-hackney/
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 5:24 pm
kowtow – “fuck off”. So eloquent.
I’m quite aware that drugs kill. Alcohol kills hundreds every year. But that doesn’t mean prohibition reduces that harm, nor does it mean that ALL alcohol drinkers and those that supply alcohol are actually directly responsible for causing such harm.
Facts are a cure for ignorance and I suggest you equip yourself with some. The war on drugs has only led to increased crime and skyrocketing rates of incarceration in places like the USA. This destroys communities and does not solve the problem of drug abuse. Portugal has decriminalized all drugs with very beneficial results and you could learn alot from their example. That is if you are willing to learn but your hostile reaction suggests a very closed mind unfortunately.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 6:14 pm
Apparently the UK Prime Minister has been begging John Key to send over our trouble shooter, Keith Lock, to take on the rioters.
Go Keith. You have the answers.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 6:30 pm
all the predictable right wing strings have been pulled in this thread. Youre a bunch of limpwristed muppets, keep screwing these events into the frail frame of your conditioning and write it all off as just a bunch of underpriveleged monkeys on the take
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 6:31 pm
TV3 news has just had an expert on. An English sociologist complete with beard.
The upshot of his expertise…..the police now have alot of work to do to rebuild something or other with the “black community”.
Would that be because the police were rioting.looting and burning?
Why the black community?
As to pikeys rioting, doesn’t matter,it’s all part of diversity and multiculturalism,innit?
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 7:04 pm
Why can’t we have an honest discussion regarding immigration in New Zealand ?
While we need immigrants, why are we too frightened to say, for example that observation
of the experience in other western nations has shown that muslim immigration does not work.
Therefore lets limit muslim immgration into NZ
People have been conned by political correctness in NZ to the extent that now you cannot make
such a statement. (it would take a brave, principled, honest politician to state that self evident truth )
In my opinion immigrants of virtually any race or religion will successfully integrate here
except muslims.
We know that muslims will eventually seek to impose their own culture onto their host country.
(The head of Islamic studies at Auckland uni published a piece in the Herald last week extolling
the benefits a sharia financial system will bring to New Zealand) Just give them another few years.
Regarding the UK
wreck @ 1.18 ‘then you look at the types of people they do look in and wonder why.’
The answer to that is the same here as it is there, the poms had their visionary, Enoch Powell
but he was ridiculed by many. We have no one with the forsight or guts to speak up here.
We know we have major problems with our immigration dept but nothing ever really changes there.
On a final lighter note. At 3.06 Kiwiblogs own resident expert on all things, mikenmild has identified
Vote:the root cause of the current problem in the UK for us.
Its their Police Force.
August 9th, 2011 at 7:18 pm
Those terrorist ‘teabaggers’, Palin and Bachman supporters are the cause of the problems.
Vote:The rioters are the Christian extremist right wingers the media has warned us about.
It’s obvious isn’t it?
August 9th, 2011 at 7:33 pm
bereal struggles again with written comprehension. Lucky he has Winston to vote for – that’ll get him the immigration policy he wants.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 7:59 pm
Bereal,
There can be no honest discussion of immigration. Discussing immigration is tantamount to racism.
Racism is now a crime.
Honest discussion is therefor a crime.
The left and the political elite have won.
When the EDL demonstrate ,it’s racism.
Vote:When black yoofs loot and burn, it’s a cry for help. Geddit?
August 9th, 2011 at 8:01 pm
kowtow
You’ve got to realise that bereal has decided the English riots are the work of Muslims. Apparently anyone else could come here and integrate fine, just not Muslims, eh? Any other lessons for us from the English experience?
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 8:19 pm
bereal: problem is why single out Muslims? Many Christians want to dictate what’s broadcast on TV, they like to concern themselves with what homos do in their bedrooms, they think it’s their place to decide whether a grown adult can sell their body for sex etc. etc. None of this actually concerns them personally but they like to whinge anyway because they want to force their values on others.
But the problem is not just religion. There are other issues, such as whether a grown adult who wants to inhale smoke from a plant should be permitted to or whether he should be thrown in jail.
So I wonder, why single out Muslims as a group of people who want to force their way of life on others? As I see it there are groups all over who can’t mind their own business and want to shove their morality down the throat of everyone else. It’s like the National party talking about “nanny state” when they’re just the same – they simply want to be a nanny on different issues.
Note I’m not disregarding the fact that importing different cultures will change the cultural makeup of the country, perhaps for the worse. But is our country in a position to claim such moral superiority in a logically consistent way and, in any case, is it truly beneficial to stigmatize and marginalize these people who we have welcomed into our country, many of which are peaceful law abiding citizens?
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 8:19 pm
Two oddly contradictory views of which community is behind the violence:
Andrew Geddis:
http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2011/08/09/maybe-blogging-about-it-will-stop-me-from-humming-hang-the-dj/#comment-51621
Alan France (quoted):
http://www.3news.co.nz/London-riots-reflect-deep-divisions-in-British-society/tabid/417/articleID/221632/Default.aspx
Both of these guys are prominent NZ academics.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 8:34 pm
I picked up on this statement on a link:
“The rioters don’t think anything is wrong with what they’re doing, because they see a free-for-all by bankers and corporations. A society reaps what it sows, and clearly, the UK has huge numbers of disenfranchised youth. ”
…..
This sort of opinion seems to assume that to be good people need to be included: “enfranchised”
Vote:I’m thinking of Genghis Khan and his Mongol hordes where you could all get in on it: invade and kill off all the civilians..(great stuff)!
August 9th, 2011 at 8:37 pm
adze
France is a bearded sociologist,he must be an expert.
TV7 news had an insightful,serious toned piece from the BBC. Deputy PM being asked in Totenham….
is this wot the cuts is doin’
why wasn’t anyone ‘ere to proteck us
Even Mark Duggans friends condemn the violence (that’s good of them)
History of tension between the police and some parts of the community….
So there you have it. The BBC have presented it in their subtle way as the gummints fault.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 8:38 pm
People in London are furious. Angry at the worthless pieces of shit wrecking this great city. Personally it is the only time I am all for using armed forces to quell troubles. If they knew that they had a high chance of paying for the level of vandalism that is happening here with their lives I am sure the numbers would be more manageable. Problem is they know at worst they are going to get community service.
Thing is they have moved on from torching businesses, to homes. Quite a few people had to escape burning buildings last night. Its despicable
They torched Clapham Junction last night which is a major area of Australasians (but with estates just behind it which is where the trouble comes from).
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 8:41 pm
kk
Maybe not their fault so much as their responsibility.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 8:44 pm
This could be a connected version of the PYM (Progressive Youth Movement) of which Green Party’s Sue Bradford was a prominent member. They held a march chanting “take a walk, come on down… and see the pigs that run our town”.The pigs (of course being law and order) the ones we call when there’s a figure that shouldn’t be there in the backyard in the middle of the night (said figure suffering from inequality?).
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 8:55 pm
It’s as if nobody could foresee that paying people to breed would lead to trouble.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 8:56 pm
In a discussion on prison reform you hear the line about the pointlessness of putting people in prison. When the guy who shot the under cover policeman who was trying to bug his car got sent to jail his partner spewed the same line. Likewise with these people, I’m guessing they will have a script which mirrors some left-wing (social workers?) justification. Ditto Tariana Turie and Co.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 8:59 pm
RightNow
The rot started here with the Family Benefit.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 9:07 pm
Even the lefties at The Guardian now seem to recognise they’ve been spouting crap for decades over law’n'order:
“Tottenham violence is a wake-up call for the police. The Metropolitan police have taken the easy option by replacing proper law enforcement with courtesy cops in ‘no-go areas’…effectively abandoning the silent majority to a life of misery under the threat of violence and crime. ”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/tottenham-metropolitan-police-london
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 9:09 pm
Scotland Yard issued a request for parents to make sure they know where their kids are – not because of any fears for their safety, but because they may be the ones doing the looting. Says it all really.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 9:09 pm
These riots are the welfare state laughing at us
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 9:16 pm
The major problem here is the police simply don’t seem to have a standardised policy response available to them in declaring a curfew when a riot occurs involving looting and or a fire. This to protect property and or fire fighters in that circumstance.
A curfew enforced by water-cannon and tear gas etc. Shields and batons don’t really quell riots in a city that size, they don’t have enough police. It is still possible that this would not work alone (could be resisted), public knowledge that resistance to a curfew would result in armoured personnell carriers being called for would probably be sufficient deterrent to resistance.
The problem is the impression that the mob feels empowered if they get away with the looting and the burning, then others see the media reports and join in … . But if this is nipped in the bud by organised systematic response there is no momentum.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 9:18 pm
Perhaps there is something in adze’s suggestion above – riots seem an intrinsic part of English culture: from the Peasants’ Revolt, the Gordon Riots, Peterloo, race riots in the 1950s, Brixton and the Poll Tax riots in the 1980s through to today’s scenes.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 9:19 pm
kk, na it’s a policing failure, it’s the mob enjoying a failure of the establishment to to asert greater power than they a bunch of yoofs out at nite as a bunch of lads on the hoof in the hood.
But by using some water-cannon and tear gas there is no need to get any hands dirty cleaning up the streets of their anti-social attitudes.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 9:22 pm
SPC – I think the major problem is pan-generational welfare dependency leading to bored and directionless youths running down the street yelling “hey – come and joint the fun” as they head towards the next looting and firebombing target. If the police were in a permanent state of readiness for this type of behaviour, UKers would all be quite rightly bemoaning living in a police state.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 9:25 pm
No, society can endure inter-generational welfare problems – if they could not they would make job creation part of government policy. Society cannot endure threat to property and life on this scale without responding.
And no, the capacity to contain imternational aggression does not make a state militarist, nor capacity to control riots a police state. Inability to do either leaves a state equally defenceless.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 9:30 pm
wat dabney
You are being too kind to the guardianista.
They are having a bob both ways and also criticising the police.So now the police have left people to live in misery!
It has been decades ,literally, of leftist and media assaults on the police for racism,heavy handedness ,whatever, that has paralysed the politicians and senior police and left them looking like a bunch of pussies. Tell your children to go to bed!
The guardian may be running scared of it’s own readers who while left recognise that this may be a riot too far…..finally.
Good insights at this UK police blog
Vote:http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com/author/inspectorgadget/
August 9th, 2011 at 9:37 pm
I’m not suggestion that there should be no response. Rather that a what appears to be a sub-standard response from the authorities is rather a manifestation of the root issue, which is bored, directionless byproducts of pan-generation welfare grasping upon an outlet for their boredom.
From here the UK can either massively increase the police footprint to be prepared to stamp out subsequent incidents, or the country can look to the root cause. I think the latter has more legs.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 9:37 pm
Police used armoured vehicles to push back more than 150 people in the Lavender Hill area bbc on line. why push shoot
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 9:39 pm
… grrrr, edit timeout ….
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 9:41 pm
Griff, because shooting would make the UK no different to Syria. This from a rather right conservative!
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 9:50 pm
The problem seems to be much like the boy races when they started using cell phones to organize.It is very hard for the police to react constructively when the mob use information sharing. a few rounds over their heads , rubber bullets, bean bag guns or some other nonlethal force would discourage many from taking part (why push shoot is my warped sense of humor)
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 9:51 pm
kk I would have thought capacity to use water-cannon and tear gas is fairly standard across much of Europe for crowd control in major cities – the UK is an exception to this basic capacity. It’s simply a security inadequacy that needs to be dealt with.
Their preference to focus on security cameras has been exposed by mobs wearing hoodies etc.
PS The right will not (is not – this is part of the background – the deputy PM even said before the election that Tory policy could result in riots and now he is in coalition with them) make the social setting nicer like by confronting welfare dependency without providing jobs.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 9:59 pm
SPC – agree on basic capacity (water canons) and uselessness of cameras, despite the UK being the most CTV’d nation on earth. The problem is that these things are not the root issue. The government should be creating an environment where private enterprise find it needs workers – ergo jobs are created. Obviously not the simple, but that’s the nub of it. Leave the government to create jobs and we’d probably be worse off.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 9:59 pm
Tear gas and water cannon would help, but the first step is just to allow the riot police to engage the rioters. In many cases, they are being told to stand their ground and just watch people looting and setting fire to buildings. There is an absolute fear from the police heirachy that any further injuries or deaths will exacerbate the problem; they haven’t yet managed to open their eyes and see the problem is already out of control.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 10:31 pm
kowtow @ 7.59 You are correct, of course, this rioting will be interpreted as a cry for help
in some quarters. Watch for the inevitable call from the left and political elite for an increase in benefits
across the board to placate these poor underpriviliged yoofs. Lets give them what they want, whatever it is.
Its true that discussion of immigration is shut down in NZ by linking it to racism, its a good trick but sad
because the major mistake we are making in immigration is importing muslims and muslims are not a race.
mikenmild, sorry about the spelling mistakes, i’ll try harder. i must congratulate you for consistancy though.
Same old M.O. over and over. Attribute a specious statement, attack that statement, ask a question
about it etc. etc. Boring. Note it was you who mentioned muslims in relation to these riots not me.
As you refer to learning from experience. Have a try at explaining why NZ will have a different
experience with muslim immigration than any other western host country. Try and come up with
something less laughable than your last effort where you reckoned it would be because we will
be nicer to muslims than everyone else and we wont provoke them as everyone else has.
Weihana 8.19 i single out muslims because it is now clear that they are unique. Muslim immigration has
Vote:not worked anywhere and NZ will be no different. If we remain frightened to talk about this issue then the
country is doomed to reap the inevitable consequences in time.
Wouldn’t it be healthier for us to grow the guts to stop fooling ourselves, get real and put this issue on the table
now, before its too late ? We dont need to follow all the other lemmings over the cliff.
August 9th, 2011 at 10:43 pm
Well, I was in London on Thursday when the gang-banger was shot (who was armed and fired the first shot according to the BBC on Thursday, funny how that seems to have dropped out of media reports now). No one really gave a toss about him then, nor do they now.
It seems to have taken three days for the rabble to find their cause and begin the mayhem. For those of you who don’t understand Tottenham, Clapham nor Brixton, any excuse will do. This is about self interest in looting and mayhem when crowds provide the cover for that sort thing. Why else would Oxford Street feature, it is hardly the most impoverished street in Westminster, which is not exactly the most impoverished part of London.
Lets be really clear, it is not political, nor about socio-economic difficulties. Its about cheap opportunists who hit the streets when there is a veneer of cover under the cover of numbers, and the hope that they will get away with a bit of looting and a bit of mayhem.
It will end and life will return to normal. It is only when the residents of Sheppard’s Bush or Fulham go on the rampage that you need to worry. We would of course torch the Gherkin, The Shard, most of Liverpool Street and Lloyds (not that any of it would burn, I suppose), not some carpet shop in Clapham Junction. That would be when the world ought to worry.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 11:11 pm
Totally, Rich Prick. We all know the type – they look at others and ask “why haven’t I got what they’ve got”. Are they interested in a realistic answer? Of course not, why stick to boring reality (that most people get somewhere in life by hard work) when there’s a left wing politician telling you that you’re picked on.
I read that there was a “peaceful protest” against the shooting. The mind boggles on that one, but what then happened is that one girl decided to throw stones and a story got circulated that she’d been hit to the ground with a baton – lack of video suggests that the police story that it didn’t happen is the correct one.
From there, the (misguided, but convenient) outrage against the police builds and we have a riot. More disaffected (read: lazy) youth realise there’s a chance they could get away with mayhem and join in and we have bigger riots.
One NZer on the news swore none of the rioters on his street was over 16.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 11:21 pm
scrubone, I hate to say it, but there is an arguement for Singapore’s way of dealing with this sort of thing. And I mean that in a deterrent way. Guess where I’d feel safer.
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 11:35 pm
As an aside I appreciate SPC’s thoughts tonight and Weihana’s comments on prohibition empowering the drug dealers, but anyways on to the main topic ….
Kowtow – cheers, that Inspector Gadget link was fascinating (I haven’t read it for ages) and it explains alot, how Police heriarchy is subservient to their political masters for fear of offending the “do-gooders” in society. Police heriarchy have become too PC.
The Police squads on the front lines are being told to watch and not engage for fear being prosecuted themselves etc. What has the UK come to?
(Could it happen here one day? Yes, possibly. Thanks to NZ’s own do-gooders that wage war in the media to present their minority views over the majority, the likes of the Green Party and scum MP’s like Keith Locke (always attacking the state) & other social justice clowns (pricks like Minto etc). Sure, we need social justice advocates, to help the poor have a voice, but not these jerks with their liberal-guilt & anti-establishment agendas. These jerks need to be starved of media oxygen).
Back to the UK. The Police there have had to engage with the community to re-establish trust due to previous frictions and riots. But softly-softly isn’t working, and it’s allowed a power vacuum in which the criminal elements have taken control of their communities by using violence and intimidation. Whilst I appreciate the unemployed are starved of hope and are seething at the inequalities, this explosion of violence and destruction is not the answer. Let’s hope the UK Govt has the balls to look at this situation as a whole, empower the Police, empower the communities & leadership and work out alternative solutions for the have nots.
(I suspect throwing money at the have nots isn’t the answer, such as building them swimming pools, and jobs won’t come easy, especially if they couldn’t be fucked learning anything at school. Sure adult education and some technical skill training may help somewhat, but not for those still at school who don’t wish to learn at their adolescent stages in life. What can one do in that situation)?
Vote:August 9th, 2011 at 11:42 pm
niggly, if I were the metro police in London right now, I would be firing rubber bullets into every plump ass nicking a TV and I’d be refusing NHS funded stitching-up thereof.
Otherwise, head shots. Dawin and all.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 12:14 am
International reaction to the riots.
Gotta love the ones from Iran calling for police restraint and China on the inability of the UK to afford a proper level of security for the Games next year (planned cuts in the police budget).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-14456635
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 12:52 am
Quiet out here in Shepherds Bush, which is just as well. We do have the enormous White City Estate on our doorstep, which is a very poor and deprived area. With the biggest shopping centre in Europe across the road from the estate, it is anticipated we will have trouble sooner than later. Westfield managed to protect itself on Sunday night however and have laid barriers along the entrances in case anything pops up in the day time.
This has got nothing to do with the current cuts or the “Tories” as the left like to bang on about. The Conservatives have only been in for just over a year – we had Labour in charge for a great many years and NOT ONE of them have conceeded that they have a part in this. Too many left wingers pointing the fingers everywhere but at themselves.
There are jobs but the youth don’t want to work preferring to stay on benefits until pushed into meaningless programmes and low end jobs they don’t want to go to. Foreigners are doing the jobs they don’t want and for less – and they are not protesting at their lack of “assets and wealth”.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 4:55 am
A word of advice for anyone caught up in a UK riot.
The safest place to hide is a Jobcentre.
I am sure Clint Heine will agree
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 5:42 am
I’ve been in England for a few years now and could have predicted this, the cities where these riots have taken place are all ‘Multicultural’, English cities are run down, job opportunities non existent and people have no hope, I guarantee these riots won’t spread to the leafy suburbs or the few parts of the country that actually are still largely English, parts of this country are basically immigrant ghettoes, most of the rioters are young black ‘gangstas’ and that’s not racist, it’s a fact. I wouldn’t hide in a jobcentre, I would hide in a mosque, nobody would dare attack one of them, I’m fortunate enough to be leaving this country soon, I pity young British people who are being alienated and marginalised by a government that couldn’t care less about them, the multicultural ideal has well and truly failed. The Brits have been sold down the river and I fear this is just the beginning.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 6:02 am
Welcome to multi cultural Britain, thankfully I’m getting out soon, the Brits have been alienated and margianilised, job opportunities are non existent, the government and many previous ones have encouraged a selfish, uncaring attitude to fester.
At least these riots are restricted to the low income areas of inner cities, the leafy suburbs and parts of England that can still claim to have retained some Englishness won’t be affected, the eroding of tradition, the failed multi cultural experiment and the refusal of politicians to listen to ordinary people have all contributed to the breakdown of society, the majority of these looters appear to be wannabe ‘gangstas’, if only the ordinary British people took to the streets and demanded their country back.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 10:05 am
“Why can’t we have an honest discussion regarding immigration in New Zealand ?”
Possibly because the large majority of New Zealanders are immigrants who failed to integrate into the existing society and demanded their own laws, values and culture should be dominant. Kind of makes it a bit difficult to criticise others (unless you just pretend well-known history didn’t happen).
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 10:39 am
Do you really want to know what the difference is?
People tell the Christians to go fuck themselves. While some of those same people entertain similar demands from Muslims.
Christians arent a problem. Their influence is dwindling, and soon they will be marginalised. Their ranks are melting as education, science, logic, and reason shine hot and bright lights on their childish, bronze-age beliefs.
The new concern is the resurgence of the worst elements of Islam.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 10:43 am
I thought the argument had been that European immigrants and their descendents in NZ had failed to live up to their own laws, values and culture.
Because when it comes to waging war against other peoples and then “walking the land” to mark out the new boundaries of what belongs to you, I’d have thought we were following the local laws, values and culture to a tee.
Bingo! Multicultural thought in a nutshell. I suppose Pita Sharples and company will be happy to know that they’re the only ones licensed to explain to Chinese, Islamic and other immigrants the meaning and implications of tikanga. Can’t wait to see the results.
Anyway – getting back to the actual thread topic: is it possible that the riots represent the resurgence of the British Celts seeking to restore their laws, values and cultures after being swamped by all those Normans?
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 10:48 am
I am touched by your adorable, naive faith in societies infallibility in correctly determining government policy.
Not inter-generational, pan-generational. We are talking about an entrenched welfare culture that makes the availability of jobs irrelevant.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 10:54 am
About as possible as the riots representing the urban populaces displeasure with the formation of a Scottish parliament, being as it is, an unforgivable affront to the Queen.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 11:00 am
@Sam Buchanan
Vote:Read nz history not the PC garbage The Real History find out about pre English laws Id love to have them back kill rape or enslave all you conquer hell you wouldn’t even need to inhabit their land to justify such behavior that is why your friends signed the treaty not for protection from the settler bit for protection from them selves. 25to40% of all Maori were wiped out by the musket wars 1810-1840.The well known history is not history its PC rubbish
some suggested real history http://www.enzb.auckland.ac.nz/browse.php
August 10th, 2011 at 11:10 am
Yeah, them darkies, no respect for western kulchar.
Oh wait, Waar komen joden toch vandaan.
Or this perhaps, HAMAS HAMAS JODEN AAN HET GAS!!!
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 11:34 am
Griff
Wow, the Musket Wars seem to have become a talking point lately – what with John Ansell’s ravings etc. What exactly were these ‘muskets’ and where did they come from?
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 11:40 am
“Because when it comes to waging war against other peoples and then “walking the land” to mark out the new boundaries of what belongs to you, I’d have thought we were following the local laws, values and culture to a tee.”
OK, so why do people here have a problem with a new group of immigrants supposedly wanting to walk in and take over then?
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 11:42 am
Are U saying we should not give Maori the benefits of the industrial revolution and science
Vote:the muskets came from traders sealers and whalers not only the British bit from the whole world at that time we did not encourage the Maori to buy and use these guns its the first thing they wanted after iron
August 10th, 2011 at 11:43 am
I was wondering why the police just didnt get stuck in with the tasers and rubber bullets? Why just stand and watch? If you take affirmative action then surely the word would spread that their not going to get away with it?
Vote:Call in the army I say!
August 10th, 2011 at 11:55 am
Griff
I’m just saying you could look at causes. Were the Musket Wars a product of European contact with Maori, or were they the logical next step for a warlike and barbarous people? In my view, both of those statement are overly simplistic, in the same way some comments have tried to tie the London Riots to Muslims or some nebulous conception of ‘socialism’ or ‘multiculturalism’.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 11:56 am
If I truly believe in multicultural theory then the answer is, no problem whatsoever.
That’s your position Sam?
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 11:56 am
Maybe the shoe is now on the other foot.
Vote:Hostile takeovers? Hang on thats nothing new in British history.
August 10th, 2011 at 12:02 pm
My conception of “socialism” is “giving you stuff for free that you can’t afford”, which the London rioters appear to have internalised.
As far as “multiculturalism” is concerned I thought its strength was its nebulousness. No value judgements allowed, what right have we to say what’s best and all that?
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 12:05 pm
tom
i though that was paternalism, ie Xmas presents!
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 12:08 pm
At some time in the near future Israel’s going to do something that will cause huge protests in Europe – YouTube clips of which Cha will then link to with glowing approval – and no sense of ironic humour.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 12:10 pm
“If I truly believe in multicultural theory then the answer is, no problem whatsoever.
That’s your position Sam?”
I’ve not entirely sure what ‘multicultural theory’ is, but I’m pretty sure I disagree with it.
What’s your position – is it OK for immigrants to walk in, decide the society they’ve moved into isn’t up to standard – and dictate new laws and values, or not?
“My conception of “socialism” is “giving you stuff for free that you can’t afford”, which the London rioters appear to have internalised.”
They’re not being ‘given’ they are just taking – in line with the individualist Thatcherist values of seizing opportunities to accumulate wealth and having no responsibility to the wider collective or community.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 12:13 pm
i though that was paternalism, ie Xmas presents!
It is – but only because the tax rates on Elves are one of Santa’s deepest secrets.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 12:14 pm
This is just plain thuggisim!!
Vote:Police should go hard with tasers and rubber bullets. Make one good example and the word will spread.
August 10th, 2011 at 12:19 pm
***in the same way some comments have tried to tie the London Riots to Muslims or some nebulous conception of ‘socialism’ or ‘multiculturalism’.***
@ mikenmild,
Perhaps one aspect of this is the extreme sensitivity in dealing with racial minorities. That may be holding the police back.
Otherwise, the link to multiculturalism appears to be the weird decision to allow in large numbers from the Caribbean despite that being a relatively high crime population. Not surprisingly, they now need Operation Trident to deal with gun crime in that community. Hopefully the politicians will learn from this and be more selective in terms of allowing people into the UK from higher risk populations.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 12:22 pm
@DeeDeeb
Vote:“the facts are the facts. 100 years before colonisation begun NZ had a small population of Chinese, French, English, Dutch and American”, check Your facts please cook 1770 is not 100 years. 2000 settlers in isolated pockets as opposed to a remaining population of 80000 Maori well armed who had been at war among them self’s for at least 400 years prior. Maori were selling land in ausie to perspective settlers with some blocks being sold to six or more different buyers. After the treaty most land sales were disallowed so Maori got to sell land for a second or more time.The declaration was signed in 1835 by approximately five chiefs in the far north not by Maori
Estimates as to the total Maori population in the south island were around 500 total as at 1840
The Maori signed to protect them selves from each other they in fact wanted to have more settlers because it gave them more access to western products as i said read the history don’t read modern interpretation because most are very biased in favor of Maori. go to my link above and read what are the real accounts of the times not distorted PC crap
August 10th, 2011 at 12:29 pm
kimble,
Your selecting only part of a comment I made is to troll away from both the point I was making and the issue.
I’ll simply repeat it (and it was made in response to a particular comment made by someone I was discussing this issue with).
No, society can endure inter-generational welfare problems – if they could not they would make job creation part of government policy. Society cannot endure threat to property and life on this scale without responding.
And no, the capacity to contain imternational aggression does not make a state militarist, nor capacity to control riots a police state. Inability to do either leaves a state equally defenceless.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 12:31 pm
I’m a right-winger who’s trying to unlearn my bad habit of making value judgements, so I’ll try to imagine what Sam Buchanan might answer:
1. It is okay – thereby rendering my initial point about European immigrants who failed to integrate into the existing society and demanded their own laws, values and culture should be dominant as pointless snark.
2. It is not okay – thereby muting any criticism I might have about future immigrants who fail to integrate into the existing society and demand that their own laws, values and culture should be dominant.
God, I love Post-Modern De-Constructionism.
Now back to my game of tic tac toe.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 12:32 pm
oops I am commenting on a post that’s gone sorry and i am of topic sorry again.The coffee is working
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 12:38 pm
The East India Company actually sold parcels of land (in Maori Ownership) to immigrants prior to them sailing. Maori had no individual “ownership” of land and parcels that were sold were by unscrupulous Maori (hence these sales being made illegal).
Land was sold in multiples because immigrants were ignorant and some Maori were ripping them off!
Either way the Treaty was signed in order for Maori and Pakeha to work together. There was wrong done on both sides Maori coming out the worst of the two, we need to get over this. I did by the way edit my earlier post because having read it I confer it was to one sided.
My family didnt have this problem by the way, my Scottish ancestor married Maori and protected our land. They were used to the workings of the English as my great grandfather told me. BTW they also worked for the East India Company.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 12:39 pm
I should have added to point 2. It is not okay, the words:
… unless I want to be a hypocrite about my shameful European past.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 12:41 pm
Sam
Yeah apart from government insisting on demonstrating capacity to maintain public order and delivering police the resources for this (before the Games next year), the other issue will be about building community and emphasing the term integration into society.
Individualism – personal incentives to either survive on your own resources or succeed for yourself clash with disparity of opportunity and aspiration between different groups and the divide can get too great for any society – especially with the prospect of tougher times ahead and a sense of unequal burden.
But society can only embrace that issue when it is first secure enough to do so. So that means water cannons and tear gas being used as soon as shops are looted, as soon as a fire starts and fire fighters need protection – the surrounding streets are placed under curfew and the streets cleared by these means if necessary. Other centres without these means using plastic bullets.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 12:48 pm
@DeeDee
Vote:Either way the Treaty was signed in order for Maori and Pakeha to work together. There was wrong done on both sides Maori coming out the worst of the two
yah its far worse to get your land used than to be cooked alive then eaten far worse to have a life expectancy of 70 years than 35 Maori came out far better due to colonization and civilization read the accounts of the time Maori society was buy any standards pretty sick
I think you are thinking of the New Zealand company not east india
August 10th, 2011 at 12:52 pm
Actually Tom, my answer is: “It is not okay – and any criticism I might have about future immigrants who fail to integrate into the existing society and demand that their own laws, values and culture should be dominant ALSO needs to be applied to my own culture”.
But why are you speculating on what I think – rather than saying what you think?
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 1:02 pm
from my reading of the riots its mostly small groups poping up at diverse locations by the time the police organize the yobbos have dispersed. The use of rubber bullets or bean bags would be far more effective in actually hurting the perpetrators, need far less organization and give far more impact on the perps than water cannon or tear gas
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 1:08 pm
Griff:
Vote:No East India Company operating throughout the Pacific at that time.
Land to Maori at that time meant life.
If you were cooked alive – you werent alive and your problems were over!
Majority of Maori died off during early colonisation as well you know, its a big leap to the 70yrs life expectancy of 2007 now wouldnt you say?
Maori coming out “far better” – ask us!
August 10th, 2011 at 1:10 pm
Griff
And Maori still haven’t said thank you!
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 1:10 pm
Anyway back to the thread: Use the rubber bullets!
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 1:12 pm
ALSO needs to be applied to my own culture”.
Well that’s easy for you to say when it’s your culture that’s already dominant. The word ALSO seems rather weaselly: you do realise that making ANY criticism of the laws, values and culture of future immigrants is simply reinforcing the Euro-centric nature of the status quo.
On what basis can you make any criticism of such things other than your own subjective experience, and how can that then be regarded as legitimate or meaningful criticism, let alone leading to something that’s “better”?
But why are you speculating on what I think – rather than saying what you think?
I already explained that I’m trying to unlearn my tendency to make value judgements. Hopefully my exposure to enlightened left-wingers such as yourself will show the way.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 1:13 pm
Tom Hunter – Gosh, how old are you? I’m sure you don’t have to take responsibility for colonialism so I don’t see the hypocrisy there.
Bottom line is we live in a modern liberal democracy which (for the most part) protects our rights. I quite like that fact, doesn’t everyone else? Therefore it is in my interests to protect that state of affairs from those who might seek to change our system to conform to some other set of backward values.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 1:17 pm
A story about police options for riot control.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14459127
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 1:17 pm
“Majority of Maori died off during early colonisation” No early contact yes at their own hands
Vote:If you were cooked alive – you werent alive and your problems were over! think about preparing your own cooking and jumping in to the hangi alive pretty nasty why to die dontyathink
If you think pre contact was better live like that fortified pa starvation slavery infanticide rape and all else
August 10th, 2011 at 1:18 pm
“you do realise that making ANY criticism of the laws, values and culture of future immigrants is simply reinforcing the Euro-centric nature of the status quo. ”
Bollocks – but I’m sure you know that.
“On what basis can you make any criticism of such things other than your own subjective experience”
Yes, my experience is subjective, but it doesn’t stop me being critical and questioning things. Just stops me from believing I have a right to unilaterally inflict my views on others. The basis of a real democracy.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 1:22 pm
You’re sure about that? Because, according to this:
I do, and even then I find myself in a position where it’s a bit difficult to criticise others, at least according to “others”.
I wonder if this would be different were I a left-winger like Sam?
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 1:22 pm
Sam Buchanan
Why do you equate your culture with those who may advocate theocracy? (for instance). If your culture is represented by the ideals of liberal democratic secularism, then you should consider your culture superior to a culture which says death to anyone who commits apostasy. It is superior because it is the only culture which inherently forbids people from imposing themselves on other people. Indeed it is a tragedy that liberal secular democracy is not “imposed” throughout the middle east thus allowing oppressive religious fanatics to impose their nonsense on those populations.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 1:22 pm
tom, are you demonstrating what happens when farmers leave the horse on the farm and come into the city to read books at the library and then go on line and dicusss politics on blogs – and leave the police outmanned on the streets?
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 1:23 pm
“think pre contact was better live like that fortified pa starvation slavery infanticide rape and all else”
Ohh god here we go – that old wha wha
Now I didnt want to say this but check out some of the statistics – yep much better off!
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 1:24 pm
That they’re given a pass, only football hooligans?.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 1:39 pm
DeeDee
Vote:yes much better off !
you don’t like the truth do you
August 10th, 2011 at 1:39 pm
Max Hastings has an excellent opinion piece in “The Daily Mail” today:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 1:42 pm
“Why do you equate your culture with those who may advocate theocracy? (for instance).”
I don’t.
“If your culture is represented by the ideals of liberal democratic secularism”
It isn’t.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 1:50 pm
Actually I do “like the truth”.
Vote:The statistics prove how wrong you are!
August 10th, 2011 at 1:52 pm
Such a depressing level of ignorance here. “”Any breakdown of civil order is inescapably political” and I hope before anyone starts blaming every conceivable thing they are ideologically opposed to, that they read this article from the excellent Al Jazeera.
http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/08/201189165143946889.html
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 2:04 pm
SPC
Apparently I’m demonstrating that left-wingers deliver more snark than argument.
Sad really, as I was merely seeking enlightenment via dial-up speed rather than the crayon-covered books I left behind on my pit-sawn kitchen table. I appreciate your point on the Police though, and given that my steed is actually waiting outside I may amble over and propose the return of Massey’s Cossacks.
Actually I rode into the urban jungle to see my prepared accounts, so now it’s time to arrange the budget to pay tens of thousands in taxes. I’m sure you’ll be pleased.
Hopefully, it will prevent riots. What are the odds?
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 2:06 pm
Sam – you’re not a liberal democrat? That’s terrible.
I would have thought the view that people do not have a right to “inflict their views on others” is a view that accords with liberalism. In any case, point is that liberalism, if that can be regarded as a type of culture, is impossible to “inflict on others”. It is the very opposite in fact, it is the prohibition of people inflicting their views on others. Thus I find no hypocrisy in saying that liberalism should be “imposed” throughout the middle east and elsewhere where, at the moment, oppressive theocratic and dictatorial regimes exist. And to believe that does not mean I have to accept that those cultures should be able to come here and impose the type of theocracy that they might prefer.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 2:06 pm
How does modern life even on the dole compere with pre contact Maori life honestly it was short brutal and nasty the problems of some Maori stem more from retaining their own culture more than any thing else and by that I mean the reality not some made up dream-time
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 2:07 pm
Good link, willb. This statment should resonate here:
Vote:‘There will be a fierce conflict in the weeks ahead as politicians, commentators and others seek to frame the events of the last few days in ways that serve their wider agenda.’
August 10th, 2011 at 2:12 pm
weihana
Imposing liberalism on the Middle East? Let me know how that works out, will you? It’s hard enough invading these countries as it is, let alone converting them to our way of life.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 2:13 pm
Griff
Would be happy to debate this on a different thread but I think we are getting of subject of what is happening in England though.
Its good to see that the local citizens are doing something about cleaning up their communities, now all thats needed is the rubber bullets!
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 2:15 pm
@Kimble 10:39 am:
I don’t see most people telling Christians to “fuck off”. Indeed I see a large number of people who supposedly support free speech EXCEPT where it’s “offensive” or “hateful” towards some group of people. Of course this destroys any notion that people can express any opinion they like. And so long as so many people embrace this type of thinking I don’t see why Muslims need to be singled out for, say, protesting some cartoons.
I just don’t see the benefit in a government coming out and saying “we don’t like Muslims”. It stigmatizes a largely law abiding population and creates division. Immigration should be targetted towards skilled and affluent people. This is a good way of ensuring that people, from whatever cultural background, are less likely to embrace more extreme views because these people have a stake in society.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 2:16 pm
@DeeDee
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10744092
Your wish has come true
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 2:17 pm
It is in a perverse way related to the riots in England however you are right and I will shut up on this thread and go and drink more coffee
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 2:24 pm
mikenmild – I agree, I’m not suggesting they be invaded. Indeed it’s been tried and has, as far as I can see, largely failed or at least cost too many lives. My point is simply that one culture is better than the other. A culture which respects the right of individuals to believe and act as they wish in a way that does not harm others is superior to a culture that dictates how people should live their lives and that is the reason why I don’t want backward cultures changing the political landscape in NZ.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 2:27 pm
It takes time to assimilate Muslims in to our culture I spoke with a councilor last nite about this and she made the comment that the look on the faces and comments by migrant woman as to the fact that your husbands demands for sex are classed as rape in our country were Very educational
Vote:To stop Muslim immigration totally would be wrong to be careful as to the number and location would be wise to many at once would allow the formation of isolated self supporting community to the detriment of our way of life this is what has happened in blighty
August 10th, 2011 at 2:45 pm
I can hardly even muster the enthusiasm to wonder about why this has happened. But I’m certainly not surprised, when we have had decades of feckless rutting animals supported by the welfare state to breed more feckless rutting animals.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 2:53 pm
I dont believe this should be attributed to either race or social “class”.
Vote:This is purely a pack of thugs making the most of a situation.
Hopefully the police wont hold back and will get stuck into them.
August 10th, 2011 at 2:58 pm
Murray at the top has it right. Shooting looters on sight would quickly bring them to heel. Discussions & solutions on causes are best left for later.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 3:00 pm
Weihana wrote: Riots like these are a direct consequence of the prohibition of drugs. These communities have high rates of drug use and thus they feel the effects of prohibition more harshly than other areas.
So because such communities use a lot of illegal drugs, they should be allowed to. That is, in effect, what you are saying. Have you had much experience of drug dependency and the mindless behaviour which results?
Mikenmild wrote: Nice to see the line-up of reasons for these riots expressed here:
1. touchy feely politically-correct multi-culturalism
2. decades of bent left leaning government
etc.
Try reading this: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/katharinebirbalsingh/100100161/no-wonder-these-kids-think-stealing-trainers-is-ok-everyone-makes-excuses-for-them/
This speech is a must-see for all with Mikenmild tendencies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XekkQ3HG2lg
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 3:01 pm
Max Hastings does have a few good points, but it’s hard to figure what his solution really means – is he blaming ‘liberalism’ as in the free-market policies that have dominated the UK for the last couple of decades, or ‘liberalism’ as in leftism that’s virtually vanished in the UK?
I worked with quite a few young people in London a while back, and they were perfect free-market citizens, even the intelligent and educated ones – aspirations limited to sex, money and their football team winning on Saturday. No politics or values to speak of, little thought for the collective good. In other words, just what the free-market wants – atomised amoral consumers educated by a media that finds sex and conflict the easiest way to sell things. Not in the least surprised they are rioting – and doing it rather badly.
There’s exceptions of course, but the difference between the behaviour and conversation of Continental Europeans in the UK sure made them stand out a mile. A couple of times I particularly noticed polite, apparently pleasant kids on a train or bus. “Odd, I thought”. Then I noticed they were speaking French or Spanish.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 3:02 pm
RightNow – so you hypothesize that poor people breed less when social programs do not provide them with the necessary support. So to test this theory we only need look at the birth rates of countries around the world to see who ranks at the top. According to the UN the top 5 are:
1 DR Conga
2 Guinea-Bissau
3 Liberia
4 Niger
5 Afghanistan
Crickey, it seems like the poorest people on Earth also breed the most. So much for the theory that making people poorer will stop them breeding.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 3:11 pm
The speech 2011
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 3:12 pm
The shooting of Mark Duggan by London Police was the tipping point that caused the spark that led to the riots. Seething resentment at the rising cost of living in London and elsewhere in Europe has created an enviroment of tension where the public will spill out onto the streets and riot unashamedly, causing mayhem and widespread damage.
Vote:Further to that , displays of conspicuous wealth, such as the Kate and William betrothal, added fuel to the class resentment experienced in England, where the average citizen faces costs of up to 80% of their pitiful incomes just to exist.
August 10th, 2011 at 3:12 pm
Weihana – and now London is turning into the Congo. Spot on.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 3:20 pm
Spiritfree
I do not agree that drug use is inherently harmful which is why I do not look down on someone because they want to have a beer. But the point is not that people should use drugs and I certainly do not advocate more drug dependency, the point is that prohibition does not reduce the harm associated with such activity, in fact it increases it and this is demonstrated time and again for anyone who bothers to look at the evidence.
The difference between alcohol prohibition and the “war on drugs” is that alcohol was more widely consumed so the harmful effects were apparent to many more people. Drugs other than alcohol, on the other hand, are more widely used only in some communities and even where affluent people from affluent neighbourhoods use drugs they are not profiled by the authorities and thus most of the time go under the radar. Therefore it is only some communities which feel the full harmful effects of prohibition compared with other communities.
Criminal convictions and prison generally do not help people get their lives on track whether they are an addict or whether they are a dealer. Try getting a job with a criminal conviction for drugs. Not a lot of options out there especially so in an economic downturn. It also does not deter the trade and so long as there is demand then there will always be people looking to profit from the trade, and to then use those profits to further other criminal enterprises.
Decriminalization has been a demonstrable success in Portugal and anyone who dismisses it out of hand is simply being closed minded and ignorant. Note also that such success has been achieved without actual legalization and regulation which would likely bring the added benefit of bringing the trade out into the open where it can be controlled by the government.
Finally I accept that the riots cannot specifically be blamed on the war on drugs but in my view ending this idiotic war would do a lot of good and help alleviate the stress many communities suffer unnecessarily. Drug abuse requires treatment, not criminal sanctions.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 3:23 pm
RightNow – you have missed the point entirely. Point is that removing welfare will not stop them breeding it will just mean they experience harsher conditions which would make them more likely to engage in the kind of behaviour that we see happening right now.
People start to control their breeding better when they enter the middle class. Stoping welfare payments will not have the effect you predict and will only worsen the situation.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 3:26 pm
Yeah, heroin is a safe drug. So is meth.
I also reckon drugs should be liberalised, but saying that arent inherently harmful is way off mark.
Really?
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 3:30 pm
Weihana – the fallacy with your comparison is infant mortality rates. That’s why there are higher birthrates in poorer countries.
Vote:People start to control their breeding better when they have to pay for their own kids.
August 10th, 2011 at 3:31 pm
@Weihana
Vote:That is why I find it so perverse that mr Dumme has banned kronik .He has admitted smoking pot and has not acknowledged the damage that this could have caused to his life. hypocrite of the first degree
August 10th, 2011 at 3:34 pm
Kimble – Heroin and meth are not safe, but I have known people who have used those drugs and who have not harmed others as a consequence. To say something is inherently harmful is to say that ANY use causes harm and that is simply not true and such hyperbole doesn’t help the discussion or give people an accurate understanding of what these drugs actually do. Moreover, to say it is not inherently harmful is not to diminish the fact that harm is associated with such drugs and relatively more so with drugs like heroin and meth.
In any case, their illegality makes it more likely that addicts would steal to fund their habit due to the inflated price.
And yes I did say the riots were a direct consequence and that’s why I made the statement to say that I accept they can’t be specifically blamed on the war on drugs. I was being overzealous with my original statement.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 3:36 pm
KevinH, it’s excusers like you who have – albeit indirectly – resulted in the riots.
Mark Duggan was no innocent. He was involved in drug-dealing and the police gun was not the only one on show at the time.
Those who rioted welcomed the excuse to go and steal the latest trainers or mobile. And then you come along and say “it’s not your fault, but the fault of someone else who has more money than you.”
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 3:39 pm
Heroin and meth and crack cocaine are artifacts of prohibition the same as bootleg whiskey was in the 20′s easy to transport stronger so more potential profit for crims
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 3:44 pm
RightNow – and what do you suppose will happen to infant mortality rates when parents have no means to support their children? And why is infant mortality not a disincentive to produce children whereas a lack of a welfare cheque would be? Personally I think seeing your child die would be more discouraging than losing a welfare cheque.
I think your problem is that you ascribe too much rationality to their thinking. There is no rationality just the desire to have children without regard for the consequences.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 3:46 pm
“I think your problem is that you ascribe too much rationality to their thinking.”
First, it’s not a problem. Second – whose thinking?
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 3:49 pm
Griff – I agree, hypocrite. The least he could do is submit himself voluntarily to the same type of punishment he advocates for others such as paying a fine or doing community work.
But don’t get me wrong, that Kronic is nasty stuff and personally I would prefer that teenagers, if they are going to smoke something, use the real thing rather than something that is laced with prescription medicine and god knows what else. Of course they never stopped using the real thing and I see no evidence that many of them took up use of Kronic just unsubstantiated anecdotal reports from the types of people that like to get hysterical over this sort of thing. I think the vast majority of users were in fact adults who wanted to avoid drug tests or didn’t want to involve themselves in criminality.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 3:52 pm
Weihana
Thanks for your long reply. I understand what you are saying and though I don’t wholeheartedly agree, I accept your arguments. For me, it all comes down to right and wrong. You write in another comment that you’ve known people who take heroin and who take meth and who didn’t harm people. I’ve known a couple who were heroin addicts. Outwardly nice people, but ruthless and totally devoid of any moral scruple. And with character traits like that they most certainly did harm people. On a grand scale.
Again, I think, it comes down to a basic understanding of what is right or and what is wrong, which requires well-meaning parenting and education which is strong on the basics. Please have a look at the two links I posted earlier. The writer/speaker there is Katharine Birbalsingh.
You see, if
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 3:53 pm
RightNow – the thinking of those who decide to have babies they can’t afford. If there was no welfare for people who can’t afford to support their babies then the rational thing to do would be to take precaution before you decide to have a baby. I don’t believe many will respond in such a rational way. They will just have babies and then make those children suffer under horrible conditions because they can’t provide them what they need. Those children will therefore be more likely to grow up as misfits and to cause the kind of mayhem as we are seeing.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 3:55 pm
Ah yes, those people. You’ve described them in nicer words than I used, but effectively you’ve just called them feckless rutting animals breeding more feckless rutting animals, haven’t you?
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 4:01 pm
Spiritfree, far from making excuses for the thugs rampaging through the streets looting and burning, my analysis of the situation there is that the shooting of Mark Duggan was the catalyst that sparked the riots. The enviroment preceeding the riots is where most commentators should look because that is where the root cause of the seething resentment and anger originates from.
Vote:It’s quite simple really, the cost of living is the singular outstanding issue that has contributed to the riot in London. Those same cost of living issues are prevalent throughout western Europe and will also affect France, Spain, Portugal et al, etc.
Europe is a tinder box waiting to explode, even the Israelis have been out marching.
The message to European governments is plain; “Get your house(s) in order or face the wrath of the young and dissaffected.”
August 10th, 2011 at 4:07 pm
Spiritfree – I didn’t view the youtube clip (no sound) but I read the article. Personally I think both sides (conservative and liberal) have a point. It is about right and wrong and none of this violence should be regarded as acceptable. But that doesn’t mean there are not other factors which influence how people behave, and looking at things like poverty is not necessarily a means to excuse behaviour, it’s just a pragmatic way of seeing how such events might be avoided in the future (if that’s even possible).
Also, I have to mention the war on drugs again because it does have relevance to the issue of right and wrong and respect for authority. When large numbers of people start entering the criminal justice system communities inevitably start losing respect for the authorities because those people are their friends, neighbours and family. Consequently they start to lose respect for other laws the authorities are enforcing such as laws against theft etc.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 4:09 pm
Those that have babies on the benefit don’t decide as such they just don’t care about the consequence of their actions at all
Vote:There are woman out their that have had 4 or more baby’s removed from their care and still continue to have more no consequence no change
August 10th, 2011 at 4:10 pm
RightNow – I suppose.
But I also want to make the argument that there isn’t an easy solution to the problem and I don’t think it can all be put down to welfare though welfare can have negative long term consequences for people who become accustomed to abusing the system.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 4:24 pm
I accept there’s no easy solution, and haven’t argued that there is. In fact, reducing the proportion of any population that is dependent on welfare is far from an easy solution, but is certainly one aspect that needs to happen. As population demographics change so must policy. And my argument is that policy should be shaped to encourage future demographics to have a lower proportion of welfare dependency.
edit – this is analogous to superannuation – as our life expectancy increases so should the age of eligibility for superannuation. Otherwise too few taxpayers need to support too many super-annuitants for too long.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 4:32 pm
RightNow
I don’t imagine too many would argue with those points (except John Key re superannuation), but as always the devil is in the detail – turning princples into policies and policies into actions that work.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 4:36 pm
yeah mikenmild, I find often after discussions with someone approaching a subject from the other side of the ideological spectrum that we usually want the same outcome, but differ in how we think the transition should take place.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 4:39 pm
Yes, even Stalin and Hitler didn’t necessarily want to kill millions of people, it was just a side effect (to which they were indifferent) of their policies.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 4:42 pm
***And my argument is that policy should be shaped to encourage future demographics to have a lower proportion of welfare dependency.***
One way to achieve this would be to make existing welfare entitlements contingent on having a 3 monthly birth control shot. This would reduce the growth of intergenerational welfare dependency.
Also, Freakanomics author Steve Levitt found that the Roe v Wade decision allowing greater access to abortion resulted in fewer children being born in the underclass. This in turn lead to a big drop off in crime.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 4:45 pm
People who keep having babies they cant look after dont usually think about the wrongs and rights of the situation only that they are going to a) keep the man b) keep the benefit c) have “something” that belongs to them etc etc
Vote:There are multiple reasons why people do this, it pays not to generalize.
August 10th, 2011 at 4:54 pm
@DeeDee
Vote:We are saying the same thing “People who keep having babies they cant look after dont usually think about the wrongs and rights” =consequence
just U are more PC not a bad thing as long as you allow me not to be
August 10th, 2011 at 4:58 pm
“One way to achieve this would be to make existing welfare entitlements contingent on having a 3 monthly birth control shot. This would reduce the growth of intergenerational welfare dependency.”
Sounds reasonable to me!
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 4:59 pm
off course
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 5:06 pm
And then why dont we start sterilizing Invalids Beneficiaries with down syndrome or some other genetic problem. Ooo next why dont we just put them down.
Vote:Personally I would like to see the population increase where these children will grow up earn good wages and pay taxes – which will pay for my super!!
However with the role models they have for parents, it would be difficult for them (not impossible) to succeed.
Rather we grow our own future workforce then continue to import them.
August 10th, 2011 at 5:07 pm
If you do this you also need to allow an opt out clause that if invoked negates the states responsibility for future support
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 5:13 pm
***Ooo next why dont we just put them down.***
The state shouldn’t have that kind of power over an individual. On the other hand offering welfare on the condition people use contraception is a reasonable arrangement. If people don’t want to use contraception they could simply not accept welfare payments.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 5:14 pm
Weihana Also, I have to mention the war on drugs again because it does have relevance to the issue of right and wrong and respect for authority. When large numbers of people start entering the criminal justice system communities inevitably start losing respect for the authorities because those people are their friends, neighbours and family.
Again I see your point. But. The idea about right and wrong is that before thinking “hey, I’ll just shoot up and see what happens!” people would know to take a reality check. Everyone’s seen the films about the disasters which face addicts. Likewise with ‘P’. If “right and wrong” were to come first every time, the drift into the criminal justice system of whole rafts of society wouldn’t happen.
Many years ago I knew a mixed race guy who had just acquired a new philosophy – if the Police were going to stop him for nothing, then he might as well do something (bad). This tallies with your statements. But like I said, that was many years ago and I know that since that time in Britain the police have changed. The Met now has a huge number of non-white officers. Crime on the Broadwater Farm estate is a fraction of what it was in the 1980′s, when PC Keith Blakelock was killed defending firefighters. Etc etc.
Poor parenting and lack of a solid education, without these there will almost inevitably be trouble.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 5:15 pm
An opt-out clause is inherent, you simply choose not to receive welfare. It’s not mandatory, rather it’s conditional upon receiving welfare assistance. A person on welfare has no business having more children and they should welcome such protection from unwanted pregnancies.
And also the comparison to sterilization or putting people down is rather over the top and is not what is being advocated. Or am I ignorant of the proposed procedure? Does it carry significant risks? If so maybe I’d rethink my position but if it’s perfectly safe and temporary then why not?
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 5:17 pm
I feel compelled to stress that I can’t imagine either of them would have thought my desired outcomes were similar to theirs (or vice versa)
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 5:22 pm
spiritfree:
” I know that since that time in Britain the police have changed. The Met now has a huge number of non-white officers”
However, young black people are still being frequently stopped and searched by police without just cause:
As far as I can tell from reading around the web, the lack of faith/respect for the police (and from all parts of society) is still a major factor in what’s going on.
Vote:http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2011/08/that-word-respect-again.html
“why is it that we should be so adamant in expecting that those who many would prefer to think of as the “lower orders” should have any respect for the very institutions that we shun? Putting it personally again, how can I expect them to have any respect for the police when I have none?”
August 10th, 2011 at 5:23 pm
Spiritfree
Vote:the problem with the present laws around drugs is that they are founded on not right and wrong bit peoples beliefs pot LSD and MDMA are safer than alcohol this is the consensuses of most unbiased studies yet we allow alcohol and ban the others creating a distortion in peoples perception of right and wrong that damages society
August 10th, 2011 at 5:24 pm
I’m talking the ability for the state to dictate if someone has a child or not (in this case with strings attached) – we have to much government interference as it is. On one level I agree that we cannot continue to support this, but we need an increase in our population to have enough workers in our future – its the quality of good parenting and role models that dont exist in the majority of these cases.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 5:31 pm
Likewise with ‘P’. If “right and wrong” were to come first every time, the drift into the criminal justice system of whole rafts of society wouldn’t happen.
——————————————–
Indeed. Problem is people don’t make the right decisions and our focus should be on how do we get them to make the right decisions. At the moment addicts are criminalized and are pushed underground where stigma and fear of arrest prevents adequate government monitoring and treatment. In an ideal world the war on drugs would have no consequence at all because rational people would not indulge themselves in behavior that can harm their health. Unfortunately we have to deal with people as they are and to find ways that can minimize the bad decisions people might make.
Also, while it is important for governments to warn against drug use even with drug liberalisation, it also needs to be remembered that addiction is a sickness and eventually it becomes less of a “choice” whether or not to use. People take up the habit because in the beggining it seems like harmless fun and perhaps they think it won’t happen to them, that they are somehow different to every other addict and that they can “control it”. I believe dealing with this sort of ignorance is more effective in an environment where drugs are decriminalized. And this goes back to what I was saying about using hyperbole in relation to the effects of drugs because kids hear “drugs are bad, drugs kill you, you’ll become an addict after one hit” and then after their first hit they don’t see these things happen and they lose faith in the warnings.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 5:37 pm
“after their first hit they don’t see these things happen and they lose faith in the warnings.”
Vote:Depending on the drug. A first time LSD user can end up permanently in and out of mental health facilities – it’s a gamble. Same with alcohol of course, some have the thirst, some don’t, and you won’t find out unless you try it. The only sure way not to become addicted is not to try it.
August 10th, 2011 at 5:37 pm
ratings for the harm of drugs
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/HarmCausedByDrugsTable.jpg
http://www.gizmag.com/go/7037/picture/32838/
Statistics culled from the United States and the United Kingdom report only 7 ecstasy-related deaths per million users of the drug. This is an interesting figure whtn compared to the 625 alcohol-related deaths per million drinkers that occur each year.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 5:40 pm
Griff – I would agree pot is definitely safer than alcohol in any context. But LSD and MDMA depend on circumstance and environment and have the potential to be more dangerous. I’m not disputing the many studies that rate the harmful effects of drugs just saying that comparisons are difficult and involve multiple factors. For instance, having one beer is safer than consuming LSD or MDMA in my opinion. But when you evaluate the overall harm then you’ve got to take into account things like the potential for addiction, for which alcohol is far worse.
Also LSD has the potential for very unpleasant experiences that may be hard to control. I’m not sure if these may have any long lasting effects, putting aside those who are already predisposed to certain psychological conditions, but even if the “bad trip” has no long term consequences, 8-12 hours of horror is probably not something many people would care to experience.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 5:43 pm
RightNow – true, but from my understanding these people are predisposed to the psychological condition for which they need treatment and drugs like LSD merely bring out a condition that likely would have developed anyway. But I’m not an expert, that’s just what I’ve gathered from my own reading.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 6:02 pm
DeeDee – I actually think the government does have a right to dictate that welfare recipients not get pregnant. While generally speaking the government should not dictate over people’s reproductive “rights” it should also be remembered that reproduction is not merely a right, it is also a responsibility and people who are on welfare and purposefully want to get pregnant are not being responsible to either their children or to society at large. Making temporary sterilization a condition of welfare seems reasonable to me if the procedure is safe. The right to reproduce free from government interference should not translate into a right to get pregnant and demand everyone else pay for it. Bottom line is you can’t complain about government interference when that is what welfare is, it is government interference. What right does such a recipient have to demand the government help them and then to dictate the terms upon which that help is given?
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 6:08 pm
Excuse me for interupting the debate on drugs
Back to the riots, apparently water cannons are not useful as the agitating groups tend to be small (eg 10) and then disperse.
People have mentioned rubber bullets, but wouldn’t the obvious first thing for the Govt to do is enact a curfew around certain areas at night time? And ensure the curfew areas are manned? Granted one doesn’t want or need to shut whole cities down (although perhaps it could come to that).
I’m a tad uncertain about simply bringing in the Army personnel per se to man roadblocks, because the Army aren’t tasked to maintain civil order (what are they to do, shoot protestors?
) but certainly see value in the Army being deployed in armoured vehicles with the appropriate night-vision equipment to detect the trouble-makers and pass the info onto Police to detain or at least have the Police ride in the APC’s to engage the trouble-makers. I’m sure an APC heading towards them would ensure they dropped their looted 40″ LCD tv’s and run etc.
After all the NZ Army & its LAV’s, with night and thermal sights were apparently very useful during the Chch earthquake to keep an eye on things …
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 7:52 pm
We are told, endlessly, that only the rapist is to blame for rape. Nothing that the victim does, has done, where they go, how they’re dressed, nothing at all changes the fact that the rapist is solely and completely responsible, in and of themselves, for the crime.
So why isn’t this true for rioters?
http://timworstall.com/2011/08/10/who-is-to-blame-for-the-riots
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 8:35 pm
Amidst all the fun I forgot about this little tossed-off gem from Sam Buchanan, because the question of which societal elites are encouraging people to have no responsibility to the wider collective or community has an answer at samizdata:
Who knew there were so many Thatcherites in the London Police? In spite of this “encouragement” it sounds like there are people who still want to act collectively in a good way:
If they’ll be allowed to by the Police.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 9:02 pm
This debate is so wide-ranging it’s difficult to keep up! Weihana – I really like your contributions, believe it or not. [innerpeace2020.........yahoo fill in the missing bit there's com at the end of course]
Drugs: I could relate a lot of stories of people and groups of people I know and have known whose lives have been affected very negatively by the experience of drug abuse. And I’m sure that anyone working in a pub could do the same about alcohol abuse. I’m not defending one over the other other than to say that it is ‘easier’ to use alcohol on a recreational basis and not be affected long-term. MDMA – it spruiks the ‘feelgood’ hormone in the brain. But whose to know whether that tab is MDMA and not speed or something far worse sold to hook the user on something else?
My moniker here indicates where I come from, as it were. And looking at it from a spiritual perspective…..well, we all take decisions every moment of every day. So anyone choosing to riot – each and every one of those rioters decides as an individual to do so. Likewise, each and every person who shoots up, drops another tab or who has another beer when they’ve had too many takes that decision for themselves at that moment, however far down the rocky road they are.
Most drugs are very dangerous for the psyche, for the human experience, as they open the way for other energies to enter the aura and disturb the individual. This is happening more or less everywhere there is drug use. The problem with drugs as compared to alcohol is that the change in consciousness is usually quicker and much more marked and the likelihood of such ‘outside interference’ is far greater. Despite this, there seems to be a competition between alcohol companies and, for example, dope peddlars, to each create and hold on to their own market by making things like alcopops and much stronger marijuana. Both of these have the same end result as I’ve described.
It’s far better to get a high from meditation, because if you want to raise your consciousness – that’s the easiest, cleanest and clearest way to do it. In truth, in a few years time, there will be far, far more people doing just that. What we’re seeing right now is a break-down of society as it’s been established. A society where living unsustainably is more or less a given, with few if any moral scruples, where there is perpetual divide and rule…..such a society can have no claim to exist in perpetuity. When enough of us realise that we can rise above the old systems as one and leave this sorry state of affairs behind, then we will.
Vote:August 10th, 2011 at 9:24 pm
The scum can riot but it is not going to change anything escept guarantee unemployment for certain people in those areas.
Vote:August 11th, 2011 at 8:37 am
Can I just interrupt the discussion on drugs and racism to point out someone stating the bleeding obvious:
“”The price of this financial crisis is being borne by people who absolutely did not cause it… Now is the period when the cost is being paid, I’m surprised that the degree of public anger has not been greater than it has.”
That statement didn’t come from some left-wing community organiser, social worker, or long-haired radical. It came from the Governor of the Bank of England, talking to the Treasury Select Committee in the Houses of Parliament. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/mar/01/mervyn-king-blames-banks-cuts)
Vote:August 11th, 2011 at 9:20 am
But the following statement did, to his 9000 twitter followers as it happens:
The Feds? They’re called the Old Bill, at least in London.
And who was this obscure personality who will be so easily dropped down the memory hole? Why it’s one of those darling fighters for social justice whose blogging the Independent shelters. You can get a taste of his background from this piece:
As it happens McIntyre’s complaint was dismissed, but in the wake of this and countless other such incidents, you can imagine what the cops must have thought as they stood around looking at the rioters, asking themselves how many Help, help, I’m being repressed pricks like McIntyre were in the mix and how much paperwork they’d be subjected to if they stood on his toe, or whether they’d even have a career as a cop afterward.
The Independent has since posted this:
But that’s just part of the memory hole treatment. Anybody think we’ll see wall-to-wall coverage on the BBC about this aspect of shoddy British journalism and the responsibilities of journalists or bloggers in the use of “uncivil” language that might stir people to violence? Not to mention serious questions about whether far-left fanatics like this are actually journalists?
No – I don’t think so either.
Vote:August 11th, 2011 at 9:54 am
The Governor of the Bank of England stated a truth that’s clear to everyone in England. You can dismiss that as shoddy and uncivil, but that doesn’t make it less true.
More to the point, why were people listening and acting on his suggestions? I mean, it’s not like he said anything new, we’re constantly awash with calls to rebellion. Here’s one from Queen Street, Auckland: “Enough is enough, get rid of the government” (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10519931). That didn’t result in rioting, whereas statements like that in the UK did.
For Jody McIntyre, the situation is the exact opposite of what Tom Hunter is claiming. The BBC have a track record of giving Jody McIntyre a slagging, to the point where they already received numerous complaints that they treated Jody McIntyre too harshly the last time he was in the public eye. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2010/12/interview_with_jody_mcintyre.html)
Still, if Jody McIntyre did incite people to criminal acts then that should be a matter for the Courts. They can decide if he committed a crime or he was just “formenting happy mischief”.
Vote:August 11th, 2011 at 9:57 am
A blogger is not a journalist. Is the there is a spectrum here? someone commenting on a blog / blogger / columnist / journalist / researcher. Different standards apply (loosely) to each.
Vote:August 11th, 2011 at 10:03 am
A blogger is not a journalist. Is the there is a spectrum here?
Funny, but I don’t recall such fine distinctions being made by the Left in the wake of the Norway shootings.
Different standards apply (loosely) to each.
Of that there is no doubt, but not in terms of bloggers vs. journalists, as the Right has learnt in the wake of the “Teabagging Terrorists” outbursts in the US, coming just a few months after the handwringing concerns expressed at the time of the Gifford shooting about the effects of “violent” and “uncivil” language.
Vote:August 11th, 2011 at 12:25 pm
A thought provoking opinion piece. Is there a failure of morals in the United Kingdom that has led to the current disorder?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024690/UK-riots-2011-Britains-liberal-intelligentsia-smashed-virtually-social-value.html
Vote:August 11th, 2011 at 1:00 pm
Bloggers probably only have the limits imposed by libel laws. I think journalists retain some vestige of professional standards. This is a bit thin at times, but there is at least some accountability to bodies such as the Press Council an BSA.
Vote:August 11th, 2011 at 5:58 pm
David you’re better than this.
None of the reductions in growth of welfare spending or housing benefit have been implemented yet.
but I’ve noticed the “reporters” who infest the NZ media, who don’t do any original research are engaging in traditional Marxist rhetoric that somehow politicised amoral youths who want free stuff and who enjoy vandalising.
I’ve now seen firsthand how NZers can pontificate with such profound emptiness about events far away that they are largely consuming through their own braindead media.
Maybe you should start reading editorials from http://cityam.com they are light years ahead of editorials in the New Zealand parish pump gutter sheets.
Vote:August 11th, 2011 at 6:39 pm
@libertyscott I agree with the sentiments expressed by the editor of cityam.com They are similar to this, in the UK Daily Telegraph: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/graemearcher/100100379/how-do-you-destroy-a-london-borough/
But please also take on board the fact that the editor of libertyam is talking from a City of London perspective. The City of London being the financial capital of more than just the UK. And some bankers there and especially in Scotland did extremely well thank you very much out of all sorts of financial merry-go-rounds, and still do, the bailing out of which is bankrupting UK plc. I’m not defending any looters – they deserve the punishment they get. Most probably more – many will get let off. However, it has to be accepted that those bankers, aided by a whole raft of idiotic politicians and regulatory authorities (lack of) have done the same, on a drastically larger scale, ‘legally.’ The law is an ass.
Vote:August 11th, 2011 at 8:35 pm
Spiritfree – and the editor of City AM opposed bank bailouts, supports banks being allowed to fail and the shareholders and depositors above the government guaranteed £60k being allowed to lose as well.
He did not support the regulatory environment that led to the financial crisis, nor the response to it, so is hardly a legit target.
Vote: