The first head to head debate
October 31st, 2011 at 11:00 am by David FarrarBrian Edwards writes that he believes Phil Goff will do very well in the televised debates, the first of which is tonight.
I agree. Key should certainly hold his own, as he did in 2008, but these debates should see Goff perform at least equally as well, if not better.
Goff has been in Parliament for close to 30 years. He can recite facts and figures about what happened to unemployment in 1989, the impact of market rents in 1995, power prices in the 2000s etc. Key only entered Parliament in 2002.
Goff was a Minister for nine years in the last Government, and he was rarely rattled in the House. His debating skills are second to none.
Where Goff can struggle is with empathy, coming across as a “normal bloke” rather than a professional politician who is always negative. But he and his staff have spent the last two and a bit years making him less robotic, and I have no doubt he will get that balance right tonight of criticising the Government’s record, and promoting their own policies. so that he is seen more positively by New Zealanders than previously. Key is already a known quantity.
Debates are huge opportunities for Opposition Leaders. For the first time they are being framed as the alternate Prime Minister. unless something goes badly wrong, my expectation is Goff will get a bounce from the debate tonight. The question is not so much whether he will get a bounce, but how big that bounce will be.
Tags: John Key, Phil Goff
October 31st, 2011 at 11:10 am
It’s definitely Goff’s best opportunity to cement in the public mind that Helen Clark isn’t the Labour leader anymore.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 11:12 am
Except goff has been around for long holding every position possible on public policy, not least his recent flip flop on superannuation. Goff just brushes all this off. But he forgets all this flip flopping adds up to a big credibility problem.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 11:13 am
“Key is already known quantity”
Vote:Are you refering to his smug incompetence.or shallow dishonesty
October 31st, 2011 at 11:17 am
Goff’s biggest problem, as he demonstrated on RNZ this morning, is his incessant talking point mode. I’m sick of hearing about what “all New Zealanders” want, and with his rote rambling on top of local candidate meeting rote rambling (which they do a lot) I’ve had enough of it – and the campaign has only just started.
Key might mumble and stumble a bit but at least it sounds natural and not like a push button doll stuck on.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 11:20 am
I agree that Goff should do better than people expect, for the reasons you cite. And it should help his personal ratings, if not Labour’s. His great weakness of course is the daft policy he is promoting.
But it is hard not to suspect you are playing a spin game here DPF: seeking to influence expectations so as to be able to claim victory on thinner grounds than otherwise.
[DPF: One can suspect that, but note Brian Edwards has said the same thing.]
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 11:21 am
Brian Edwards. Is that croaky old gentleman still around ? Thought he had long gone after Clark departed our shores. She was his best customer as he tried to do an Eliza Dolittle making her sound feminine. Major fail.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 11:21 am
careful pete…!..yr centreist-mask is slipping..eh..?
..we can all see the rightwing beast lurking behind..
..the real p.g…
..and i agree with the post…
..goff will eat key tonight..
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 11:28 am
russel…farrar seems to be outrightly spinning less this election..so far..
..from my observations…
..(his post on mana today exempted from that judgment..)
..of course the hysterical-denizens that lurk here are just roaring their usual one-eyed-historical-propaganda-irrelevancies…c.f..rf…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 11:30 am
With the polls showing the Nats with an unassailable lead, and perhaps in a position to rule alone, then this election is John Keys’ to lose if he doesn’t make a good showing of the debates.
Vote:Goff is as reported an experienced politician who can whether the criticism and plow on and has the ability to spontaneously quote facts and figures to support his argument.
Key however is prone to adlibbing and will have to stick to a more scripted presentation, particularly on asset sales where Labour is exploiting public reluctance and Goff will be looking to get bounce.
October 31st, 2011 at 11:44 am
Labour will campaign strongly, and negatively – they have nothing to lose – and I would expect the caucus to really swing behind Goff, who will perform strongly in the debates. This will be a test for J Key. Labour also has going for it, the natural swing that will haul back the lead National has, not on account of anything Lab. will do, but the natural moderate and balancing mentality NZers exhibit at election times. It will be much closer Lab – Nat than we expect.
Of worry, is the impact the effective Green ‘apple pie and world peace’ campaign will have lifting the Left vote in 2011. Ideally we should have the MMP Referendum AFTER the election. Lab/Green govt. is quite feasible.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 11:47 am
as a novice finance spokesman, Key saw off Cullen in a head to head debate before the 2005 election
Vote:as a novice party leader, key saw off Clark in a head to head debate before the 2008 election
I predict, Goff will be made to look like desperate dan v Key before the 2011 election .. he has no-show
October 31st, 2011 at 11:53 am
“..of course the hysterical-denizens that lurk here are just roaring their usual one-eyed-historical-propaganda-irrelevancies…c.f..rf…”
Phil: you are the one who most suits that description. That is why few people bother responding.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 11:55 am
Let’s just cut the bullshit. We all know that the reason Key has high ratings is because he is rich. That is all. Men want to be him, women want to be with him. The small minority of people who truly give a shit about the country are those who vote for ACT or the Alliance depending on what they believe. But otherwise for the rest of the nation, it has nothing to do with policy. National and Labour could switch policies and Key could be up there talking about no asset sales and Goff talking about partial privatisation and it would make fuck all difference to the polling. Because that’s how fucking stupid the average ‘mum and dad’ voter are. 100/100 voters you survey will tell you that the reason they prefer Key over Goff, it’ll be because “he seems like a nice guy”. If you ask them to explain the economic implications of asset sales they’ll just be like duhhhh.
Fuck election time pisses me off.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 11:55 am
hannity (24) Says: “Key is already known quantity. Are you refering to his smug incompetence.or shallow dishonesty?”
Haha – is that the best you have? Don’t you like the Stranded or Swampblog any more?
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 12:00 pm
@ DPF
“His debating skills are second to none.”
Really?
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 12:04 pm
@ Courage Wolf
“The small minority of people who truly give a shit about the country are those who vote for ACT or the Alliance depending on what they believe”
I disagree. It’s one thing to believe and vote a certain way. It’s another thing to go into ‘battle’ and actually do something about it – of which compromise (on policy not integrity) is part of the battle. I’m not saying that all MPs are truly passionate about NZ but disagree that politicians who compromise (on policy not integrity) don’t give a shit about NZ.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 12:06 pm
So John Key turned down the Radio NZ debate “because of the time needed to prepare he was not going to do any more”. What a crock of shit!
Your attempt to lower voters’ expectations of John Key ahead of the leader’s debate only confirms my suspicions that Key is a Manchurian Candidate – hand-picked by Jenny Shipley and created by a spin machine.
While there are protests worldwide against bankers screwing taxpayers, New Zealand is run by one.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 12:17 pm
This election could fast turn into the shallowness of Key versus the anonymity of Goff. I am not sure what the rest of NZ is thinking on this but the National Election campaign is far too Key centric presidential and for me the “Aw shucks” persona is cringe-worthy. Fortunately for Key labour has too big a hurdle to jump to be a significant threat. For Labour it is not so much their policies but the flakiness of its probable bedfellows in the Greens and possibly Winston should by some miracle he crawl his way to 5%.
ACT’s poor showing to date in Epsom may be an embarrassment for National, leaving the Maori Party and Peter Dunn as its only allies.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 12:18 pm
East Wellington Superhero (471) Says:
October 31st, 2011 at 12:04 pm
I disagree. It’s one thing to believe and vote a certain way. It’s another thing to go into ‘battle’ and actually do something about it – of which compromise (on policy not integrity) is part of the battle. I’m not saying that all MPs are truly passionate about NZ but disagree that politicians who compromise (on policy not integrity) don’t give a shit about NZ.
So basically what you’re saying is… Because of dumb fuck mum and dad voters that understand fuck all about economics, parties must compromise and water down their policies to appease their dumb asses. I don’t know how that is any different to what I was saying.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 12:33 pm
Goff has the George W Bush advantage in this debate. The media has spent so much of the last three years enlessly repeating how inept he is that the bar is set so low that short of punching John Key in the face he is all but guaranteed to come across as a reasonably likeable human being and ‘win’ the debate.
Where he has a problem is that in the campaign more generally he is more akin to John Kerry. The reasonable middle of the road compromise candidate that everybody can agree on, strong on policy detail and weak on charisma. As a left of centre voter if I could sum up my view of how Phil Goff might perform as Prime Minister it would be “OK” or “Not bad given the circumstances”. That mediocrity is the kiss of death in a campaign, Goff stands every chance of winning the battle but losing the war.
On a sidenote: Does anybody else notice how much like Helen Clark he sounds when he’s talking. Not sure if it’s the intonation or mannerisms or something from spending so many years together or just similar regional accents or something. It’s spooky, makes the hairs on the back of my neck raise, every time I see him speaking it’s like Aunty Helen is in the room!
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 1:12 pm
Goff has a nasty habit of talking over people, talking loudly and making 50 words go for 500.
He is a huge turn off. Monotone presentation. It wouldn’t be so bad if what he said was interesting.
Brian would’ve had his work cut out for him…
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 1:14 pm
@ Courage Wolf
I was about to reply to your comment but then after about three sentences I realised I was wasting my time. I’m doing something more productive and enjoyable now.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 1:39 pm
my expectation is Goff will get a bounce from the debate tonight. The question is not so much whether he will get a bounce, but how big that bounce will be.
But to what end, when his party is intent on rolling him the moment he loses the Election and fore-shadow that by not even having him on their billboards?
Vote:They sit like vultures ready to dive in to see who can get his job, but not yet – not for the worth of the Party. If they don’t care enough about the Party themselves why should I or anyone else.
Stuff them, as they deserve to be.
October 31st, 2011 at 2:45 pm
Where Goff can struggle is with empathy…
I thought that might be the cunning plan. Allow Goff to bully and shame Key with cogent points on relevent issues that highlight National’s incompetence, rammed home with ruthless efficency so Key can pull the hurt schoolboy face and garner the sympathy vote.
yup…pin a tail on that and call it a weasel.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 3:10 pm
I suspect Goff will do pretty well. I remember how well he destroyed Lockwood in a debate some time ago.
Although having said that, Key seems to have a very good grasp of facts and figures too, and he doesn’t have anywhere near the baggage that Goff has. I think that as long as Goff doesn’t do the nasty character assassination that Clark tried though he will at least hold his own.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 3:12 pm
East Wellington Superhero (472) Says:
October 31st, 2011 at 1:14 pm
I was about to reply to your comment but then after about three sentences I realised I was wasting my time. I’m doing something more productive and enjoyable now.
Which of course is double-speak for you wanted to debate the points I made but then realised that they were valid and that any reply you made would look ridiculous.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 3:22 pm
“..leaving the Maori Party and Peter Dunn as its only allies…”
um..!..bad news…the maori party is more likely to go centre-left..
..their policy differences with national..and the irrefutable fact that most maori party voters voter labour with their party vote last time..
..means that yr assurance is a false assurance..
..given act is crashing on the reef…
..all you really have is dunny-brush…
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 3:25 pm
Thats what you said at the last election. You were wrong then, your wrong now.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 3:25 pm
“..But to what end, when his party is intent on rolling him the moment he loses the Election ..”
but if he wins sofia…he becomes prime minister…
..if he loses..he will walk on that night…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 3:41 pm
leo.. the major problem the maori party has is that it is increasingly being viewed by most maori as the party for the iwi/maori elites…
..increasingly/irrefutably hone is that voice for most of maori….
..tariana has already said she is going…and sharples is looking very tired/barely going thru the motions…
..nationals’ possible-allies are sinking/looking very unwell…
..and really..when it all boils down..it’s yr asset-sales program that’s gonna sink you..
..i mean..14% support…?..52% ‘strongly’ against it..?
..and the sale wd only pay for the tax cuts for the richest for six months..?
..with the rest of us paying and paying forever into the future..
..utter utter ideology-driven economic-lunacy..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 3:44 pm
@Sofia: “not even having him on their billboards”.
Having driven through the Wairarapa on the weekend and seeing about 107 photos of JK on the otherwise completely uninspiring billboards, often larger than the local guy that makes my Grandfather look young (Hayes), and then contrasting them to Labour’s billboards that are either completely policy or completely about the electoral candidate (photo**, no policy), personally I think Labour made the right call in leaving Goff off the signs.
** though I understand they gave the Photoshop guy a few too many coffee’s in some places…
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 3:46 pm
The partial asset sales plan has been well known for almost a year now. Yet the polls have shown National extending its lead over Labour. National is more popular now than ever. The facts do not match your claim.
No, that would be Mana and the Greens.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 3:49 pm
Thats not what the polls say. And Hone is hated by Ngai Tahu people.
Once again all your doing is spinning this fantasy of this oncoming lurch to the extreme left. You have been spinning this claim on this blog for years now. It has not happenned. There is no sign of it happening. Its a fantasy in your head.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 4:24 pm
Key will eat Goff alive. end of story.
I’m stopping at the shops on the way home for some chips and dip
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 4:28 pm
“..and the sale wd only pay for the tax cuts for the richest for six months..?
..with the rest of us paying and paying forever into the future..”
“Us paying” ? Did I read that correctly? What do YOU pay Phil?
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 4:36 pm
careful it’s not something you can easily choke on..eh batman..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 4:38 pm
i think we are talking power-bills here nookin…
..you seem somewhat flustered..
..is that cold claw of defeat ripping into yr guts..?
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 4:40 pm
looks like the Craig bloke is doing ok in the polls?
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 4:40 pm
“…The partial asset sales plan has been well known for almost a year now. ..”
and has been hated for all that time…
..latest polls have only 14% supporting the rotten/stinking/dead-albatross of an idea..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 4:52 pm
“i think we are talking …”
Vote:You were talking tax cuts, not power bills. You may have thought “power bills” but that term did not emerge from the murky haze that hovers above your neck and materialise in the post. Given that you say that assets sales will be applied for tax cuts for the rich, I rather conclude that you were not thinking at all. Unless of course you can offer any evidence to support your view?
October 31st, 2011 at 5:08 pm
do i have to walk you thru it there..nookin..?
power companies sold to elites…(local or o/s..no difference..both will screw us blind…)
..to maximise profits..power prices go up..
..hence..we all have to pay..forever..those higher power-bills..
..got that one..?
..it is called capitalism..isn’t it..it is all about profit..not social good/benefit..
..the other fact is to demonstrate the utter madness of going into huge govt debt..to pay for tax-cuts for the rich…
..and then selling those assets…(with key/english having already factored that debt-reduction into their last budget-predictions..remember..?)
..suddenly now they plan to factor it in again..to something else..
..that is very clever accounting..eh..?
..and that those asset sales will only pay for six months of those cuts..
..just amplifies that economic-lunacy up to ear-splitting level..
..i thought you conservatives claimed to be economically-literate…
..unless you are the 1%..if you are supporting those policies..
..you are an utter fucken fool..
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 5:13 pm
Phil, don’t start on me. I will chew you out. I ignore all your ramblings as they do nothing to improve my knowledge.
go back to your vapouriser
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 5:16 pm
Phil
Vote:Please point me to that part of National’s policy that says that there will be tax cuts for the rich funded out of asset sales? Or is this just another example of “..the hysterical-denizens that lurk here are just roaring their usual one-eyed-historical-propaganda-irrelevancies…c.f..rf…” ? The denizen, in this case, being you.
October 31st, 2011 at 5:16 pm
‘holy threats..!..batman..!..”
.and i see you more as ‘gumming’..rather than ‘chewing’..
..eh..?
..so gum-away..!
..eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 5:19 pm
go on nookin..just go and read the 5.08 again..
..but this time more slowly..
..and really really try to understand..eh..?
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 5:56 pm
I am not going to even try to read your nonsensical gibberish again. Just like water woman, you are constantly changing the goal posts to cater for your deficiencies. Just go on howling at the moon, Phil. Better still, why not fund your power bill out of your own efforts and not everyone else’s?
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 6:15 pm
I hope Crosby-Textor has come up with counter-propaganda when Goff says “tax cuts for the rich” as he will, probably in the first 30 secs.
Ever since Liarbore started this meme years ago, the Nats have been completely silent in response, bereft of ideas, over this poisonous and effective meme. There are various ways to spin this, let’s hope the guys who do this for a living, have given Key a ready answer that works, a phrase that roars out of Key’s throat, grabs Phil by the nuts and gives them a big long hard squeeze while at the same time tapping his ankles, giving him a body slam then finishing it all off with a knee in the head. Figuratively speaking, of course.
I’d really enjoy seeing that happen.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 6:36 pm
while you are shopping at the fantasy-shop there..reid..
..can i have a pony..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 6:39 pm
jaba (1,560) Says:
October 31st, 2011 at 4:40 pm
looks like the Craig bloke is doing ok in the polls?
By doing OK do you mean less than 5% and no electorate seat, rendering the term ‘OK’ to mean doing ‘shit’?
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 6:48 pm
Watching the debate tonight between a couple of soft-cock pussies that don’t want to do anything significant to help the country would mean that I would have to leave the computer, go to the living room and turn on the TV. Fuck it, not worth the effort.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 6:55 pm
while you are shopping at the fantasy-shop there..reid..
Shut up phil I’m burning incense, holding my temples, rocking back and forth and generally concentrating really hard on visualising it into existence at 7:00:30 tonight.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 7:16 pm
Well so far Key is slaying him.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 7:18 pm
My god!…I almost feel sorry for Goff.
Key is tearing his arms and legs off.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 7:22 pm
And ‘another one’
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 7:26 pm
key has the manner of that door to door salesman with his foot in the door..’
..trying to close…
..goff is nailing key on gst..on the lie he told last election campaign..when he promised he wouldn’t raise gst..
..goff has called him a liar..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 7:30 pm
Philu, Goff is an idiot calling John Key a liar. No future in that line of attack. Moron.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 7:37 pm
Agree smttc. It is an unwritten rule that you never use the liar word. Fibber is the more decent turn of phrase.
Phil lost out right from the start when he used his first 45 seconds to attack Key and National. Big mistake.
I wish JK would bite back when ever Goff goes on about how he (Key) got a $1000 a week tax cut. By my calculations it is about 400 per week but when you consider he is paying about 150K in tax anyway, it is chicken feed.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 7:38 pm
smtcc..he lied..
he looked down the camera..and promised a national govt would not raise gst..
how was that not a lie..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 7:41 pm
smtcc
He did lie about GST. Key is naive, he shouldn’t make promises if he intends to break them. Obviously you don’t care what Key says as long as he smiles and waves.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 7:44 pm
> It is an unwritten rule that you never use the liar word.
In your world perhaps, but not in politics. Some people need to be reminded of Key’s lies, and even when you draw attention to them, there are people (as on here) who will deny those lies.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 7:46 pm
Goff is coming across as a whining doom merchant trying to score cheap tricks
Vote:Par for the course
October 31st, 2011 at 7:48 pm
Perception is a funny thing. Goff to me looks as he is doing well for Goff. Key seems a bit smarmy must because he developed a bit of a credibility gap(been caught twice so far)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 7:48 pm
Key did not lie about GST. The question posed to him at the time was “Would you raise GST to pay down debt”. The honest answer was NO. GST was raised to switch tax from mainly income to consumption based and was not to pay down debt.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 7:48 pm
The shit hit the reef!!
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 7:50 pm
Phool,
Vote:Why does this GST increase become a problem when 15% was suggested years ago (Roger Douglas in Labour I think)
Maybe was needed to give shitbags like you an income. When you earn an income and pay PAYE the you have ground to stand on re TAX. Until then fuck off. You are a leech on the TAXPAYER
October 31st, 2011 at 8:00 pm
> “Would you raise GST to pay down debt”.
Wrong, why don’t you do some research. But here’s a hint…Key said that his was a party of cutting taxes, not increasing them. That’s fairly unequivocal. Are you that biased that you will defend Key’s lies?
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:00 pm
Phool demonstrates the desperation of the parasitic left. They see things that are just not happening.
What ever way you look at it Key is kicking Goff’s arse.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:01 pm
Key says he would march down Queen St and hold a placard!
Yeah maybe if his millions were at stake.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:02 pm
> What ever way you look at it Key is kicking Goff’s arse
It must be hard for you wearing that eye patch.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:03 pm
What ever way you look at it Key is kicking Goff’s arse.
He certainly is. Isn’t it funny.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:04 pm
gramps-steve..!..are you getting that whiff of defeat too..?
key is looking glib/smarmy…
.and the only answer he has to everything is ‘the economy’..and i mean for everything..
..(a drinking-game involving that wd have everyone horizontal by now…)
..the economy a factor that did not feature in the concerns of those polled-voters..
..he is barking up the wrong tree..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:07 pm
Geez Ross, Bruv is hardly a partisan cheerleeder for the Nats. If he says that Phil is getting slayed, then PHIL IS GETTING SLAYED!!
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:08 pm
Hey philu
Vote:If national win the election dispute your assurances they are doomed…. Will you agree to bugger off and not blight this blog again?
October 31st, 2011 at 8:09 pm
What ever way you look at it Key is kicking Goff’s arse.
Really? To me, he looks commanding and powerful.
..the economy a factor that did not feature in the concerns of those polled-voters..
You mean your mentals who think money isn’t available because the wich confiscated it and all one has to do is to demand it back? No, it probably doesn’t, in those minds.
But who cares about them, phil? Crikey.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:12 pm
What are those intra-debate pundits doing there? Are people not capable of forming their own opinions for even five minutes?
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:14 pm
Phool,
Vote:The only defeat I see is that the National Party will continue to support parasites and shitbags like you, at my expense.
To vote Labour would only encourage more useless bludgers. To vote Green is the same. To think I once supported and donated to Greenpeace. Different people now, fucking lemons like you Phool
October 31st, 2011 at 8:17 pm
I just lost interest when Espiner announced that coming up is the question of whether your vote is based on personality or policy.
I thought when I saw Sainsbury something like this would happen. The mental wouldn’t let it just end, with the leaders. No.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:18 pm
It’s ok Steve, I once voted NZ first
Vote:We all make horrible mistakes at different times in our lives
October 31st, 2011 at 8:18 pm
Goff looks and sounds terrible .. angry and very Lenny B like in that he is promising the world and no way to pay for it and when he has to agree to many Green spending ideas, NZ will be in REAL trouble
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:19 pm
What has Goff done to his face. Looks puffy around his eyebrows. Almost unnatural. I know he colours his hair and walks funny.. What else has he done.
Key is all over him.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:22 pm
“..fucking lemons like you Phool..”
aren’t you a bit fruit confused there..?..old fella..?
..don’t you mean ‘watermelon’..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:23 pm
Looks puffy around his eyebrows.
Possibly he mistook the botox for the botulin when he was “preparing” for the debate, RF.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:25 pm
Both, if the hat fits, wear it.
Vote:Green on the outside, red on the inside and yellow when rotten
October 31st, 2011 at 8:26 pm
now he’s lying about the role of the s.a.s. in afghanistan..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:31 pm
that robinson is so one-eyed..she should come with a disclaimer…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:33 pm
You would know a lot about the SAS of course Phool. But you can’t tell me, or you would have to kill me.
Vote:Can anyone imagine a drug crazed idiot doing what the elite forces do?
October 31st, 2011 at 8:33 pm
Phool.
The only one lying is Goff.
Goff started to make a bit of a comeback in the second part of the debate, for a moment he sounded reasonable but true to form he lurched back into frothing socialist mode and made a complete Joe Hunt of himself.
The text poll showed that Key slaughtered Goff.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:34 pm
One eyed people are only allowed to be lefties eh Phil…
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:38 pm
> The text poll showed that Key slaughtered Goff
Who would’ve thought that your life is run by text polls…can’t you think for yourself?
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:40 pm
Ross
Feeling a bit under pressure are you because of Goff’s piss poor performance?
Never mind petal, you have at least six years to find another leader good enough to take on Neville Key and he gutless Nats.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:41 pm
Why was Goff so furious?
Vote:Will they replace the worm with the Phil Goff anger meter next time?
Reminds me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hApCBfB-nng
October 31st, 2011 at 8:42 pm
“Neville Key and he gutless Nats”
Phew! I thought someone had stolen Bruv’s login details for a while there.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:44 pm
the txt-poll..?..snigger..!..@75 cents a vote..yep..!..that’;; bring out the poor/labours’-base..
..and griffon..robinson is the same on the chat-shows..
..you just know what her stance will be..
..and what compounds that is that she never veers from that message..
..she just called a shifty-eyed key..the winner over an assured/prime minister-like goff..
..(snd if you look at my questiontime commentaries..
..i often rip goff to shreds..
..that’s why i call robinson one-eyed…
..there is no over-riding discernment with that..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:48 pm
..she just called a shifty-eyed key..the winner over an assured/prime minister-like goff..
..(snd if you look at my questiontime commentaries..
..i often rip goff to shreds..
..that’s why i call robinson one-eyed…
..there is no over-riding discernment with that..
phil, would you read what you’ve just said. Your bias drips all over that, mate. Just the same as mine would, had I been watching Hulun, cos she’s the only politician and human being for that matter, whom I really truly loath. But every other human being, even you, I’m pretty cool with.
So in my cool calm objective world, Key slaughtered Phil. He gave him a massive wedgie in front of the whole country.
This is what I saw, phil. As did many more. You watch what the polls do.
Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
In advance.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:49 pm
BlueGriff
Yeah…well when faced with the choice between Key and Goff I guess I have to hold my nose and vote for Key.
I like Key, any reasonable person has to like the guy, it is his policies that disappoint me.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 8:58 pm
Geez they are tearing into Claire Robinson on the lefty sites. What is it with you guys.
Johansen is clearly of the left yet the right doesn’t get all hung up about it, let alone start a letter writing campaign to TVNZ.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 9:02 pm
Phil Goff is a bitter nasty shit, as well demonstrated at the end
Vote:What a prick
October 31st, 2011 at 9:08 pm
You guys should look at this MTV streaming debate.
Listen to the complete fantasy bollocks the Mana is putting out as unchallenged facts. It’s fucking amazing:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5883747/Live-streaming-Town-Hall-debates
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 9:11 pm
it’s also on maori tv reid..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 9:19 pm
Actually, as a typically national/act voter who dislikes 99% of Labours policies, I thought Goff did quite well. Didnt see the first 15 min though. Couldn’t quite understand what the female pundit was going on about.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 9:19 pm
Yes phil, so what did you think about Key?
Wasn’t he fantastic?
swan, Phil did OK, but not next to Key. He just didn’t.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 9:31 pm
he was ‘fantastic’ as far as helping ensure his defeat…
..and i repeat..it won’t be these debates that will decide the election..
(tho’ this one has helped goff..even keys’ body-language was shifty..
..whereas goff was calm/assured/knew his subjects…
..if they were both being interviewed for a job..
..you’d hire goff..
..it will be asset sales..and those concerns expressed by those voters…env./poverty..cost of food/living.that will sink him
..and the greens will do really well this time..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 9:39 pm
LOL, what the fuck does philu know abot job interviews…
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 9:40 pm
..it will be asset sales..and those concerns expressed by those voters…env./poverty..cost of food/living.that will sink him
No it won’t phil since those are exclusively the concerns of your base, not the floaters. The floaters care about stuff like their own job, how the global thingy whatsaname is going, and watching sport and CI.
They don’t care about the issues your base cares about.
..and the greens will do really well this time..
phil I may be mistaken but I didn’t notice Wussell or Metewia there, at all. Of course they’ll do really well. Not because they’re any good, but because our education system is really letting the whole country down, big time.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 9:47 pm
Oh, thats not fair, I bet he is an expert at failing them on purpose
Vote:At least Phi Goof was trying
October 31st, 2011 at 9:48 pm
“..Your bias drips all over that, mate…”
no..had goff been shifty-eyed and squirmy…
..and key more calm/focussed/prime ministerial..
..i would have called it as that..
..but the opposite was true…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 9:51 pm
Like I said phil, let’s see what the polls say.
Awwwwwwwwwwwwww.
In advance.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 9:51 pm
So Phool, how you going to feel when the Greens do a deal with the Nat’s?
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 9:53 pm
“..No it won’t phil since those are exclusively the concerns of your base, not the floaters…”
reid..that was a poll of voters by tv3….not a survey passed around the occupiers…
..and that core green issue…and that key mana policy…are amongst those random voters main concerns..
..it’s a bit silly of you to dismiss that as my ‘base’..(whatever the fuck that is..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 9:55 pm
“the txt-poll..?..snigger..!..@75 cents a vote..yep..!..that’;; bring out the poor/labours’-base..”
Wasn’t it Honest Hone who rejected polls because his supporters didn’t have landlines — only cell phones? Now Honest Philu rejects a text poll because all those people who had cells phones previously cannot now afford them. Shifting sands, Phil? Or hysterical-denizen lurking and roaring your usual one-eyed-historical-propaganda-irrelevancies.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 9:56 pm
“..So Phool, how you going to feel when the Greens do a deal with the Nat’s?..”
for that too happen..key/nat would have to u-turn on most of their poiicies…
..and that ain’t gonna happen..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 9:58 pm
are you now going to argue that txt-polls are scientifically-accurate…?
..shine on you crazy diamond…eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 10:02 pm
No Phool
The Greens are sick of not being at the table, after being shat on by Labour time and time again they want some of the baubles.
Key will give them fuck all but it will be enough to get them onside.
How are you going to feel about that?
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 10:02 pm
If any of you political junkies can cast your mind back to the first televised leader’s debate between Nixon and Kennedy, most radio listeners thought Nixon won but most television viewers thought Kennedy won. Out of shot, Nixon was constantly wiping the sweat off his brow.
In the Key/Goff debate, Key looked rattled at the edge of the screen. His body language was not good.
Perception maybe but that’s really, right?
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 10:09 pm
reid..that was a poll of voters by tv3….not a survey passed around the occupiers…
Pretty much the same thing phil, but if you don’t already know that then far be it for me to point you to more accurate sources.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 10:09 pm
(And BTW, I couldn’t help but notice some well known Nats behind Goff frowning in the audience in the red light district.)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 10:11 pm
Key looked rattled at the edge of the screen.
That was probably Phil just using a bit of Blue State Digital’s more secret equipment. Clearly it didn’t have a very long range, must be a prototype.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 10:16 pm
Nah – I don’t believe in polls of any sort. They give a rough indication of a picture at a particular time. People will give an answer they they don’t intend giving on the real day. That’s not the point, Phil. Don’t change the rules, Phil. We were not talking accuracy of text polls. The point is the dishonest way people switch goal posts to suit their own petty prejudice. Use facts to argue one way one day and the same facts to argue the other way on another day.
You know the defining moment for me Phil? When they were debating GST, Key said that he increased GST because the circumstance justified it. Goff was asked if ever he took the view that policies appropriate at one time might be inappropriate at another. Goff evaded the question ( asset sales. capital gains tax, anyone?) Instead he said that he doesn’t lie. By evading that question and making a veiled allegation against Key, Goff proving that he is a sneaky, devious politico with few principles. An honest man would have said “Yes – of course”.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 10:19 pm
“..but if you don’t already know that then far be it for me to point you to more accurate sources…”
right ho..!
..carry on..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 10:21 pm
The problem with National’s policy is that it is a punt. They punt that they can set the economy up in such a manner that we will be able to increase our share of the world market (export led recovery). But exports are marketed into a world marketplace that has never been so competitive; all Europe, North America, they all face a need to increase their share of the world market to build up their own economies. Furthermore, this marketplace is, frankly, corrupt; just look at America angling for pharmac! Into this environment National would send the only hope they afford the country, and if the hope of export led recovery falls upon the real politik of the international marketplace we are stuffed; assets sold, tax system that does not cover services that make New Zealand New Zealand.
Labour, on the other hand, have taken a far more cautious approach. Doing what they can ensure opportunities by supporting research, emerging business, and the social health of the country; prudently covering Government debt blow out by tax reform; listening to credit rating agencies’ critique and altering superanuation accordingly.
Just to end, what sort of knucklehead thought increasing gst on NZ goods and services did not increase the competitiveness of offshore online goods and services? Hello Whitcouls! And who was the bright spark that thought a tax switch to gst would be fiscally neutral given goods and services brought over the internet do not incur gst? And who is thorough statistician who has calculated just how much tax revenue has been lost due to this massive hole in the tax system?
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 10:21 pm
it wasn’t a ‘veled’-accusation..
..he called him a liar on multiple fronts..
..and then listed those fronts..
phil(whosr.co.nz)
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 10:21 pm
Goff called Key out as a liar to his face and Key as much admitted it. Now that genie is out of the bottle, it’s never going back in. It’s open season on anything Key tries to spin as fact now.
What was it Helen said about the last election being about trust ?
Don’t think for a sec the fact Key cannot be trusted not to skew the truth in a dynamic environment slipped past the average Kiwi battler because Goff didn’t let him get away with any bullshit.
Just to reiterate for the partisan hacks hanging off team blues nutsacks…
JOHN KEY IS A LIAR…own that future because Key’s past is going to haunt him for the rest of this campaign.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 10:29 pm
BWAV
Changing policy is not lying. Making a promise when, at the time, there is no intention of keeping it is lying. There is no evidence that Key intended raising GST pre-election. Lying is much more straightforward. An example? Try “I was never briefed about the Israeli tourists?” You know – what Goff said. Or what about the famous photo shoot on the beach. You know the one. First he acknowledged that it was a photo-shoot. Then he said he was asked to help. Help? Fuck me, 10 seconds with a shovel is help?
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 10:33 pm
FFS, is it a full moon or Halloween? – the commie nutjobs sure are in fullswing right now.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 10:34 pm
I think you will find that Goff will regret the personal attacks. His own track record is too flimsy a foundation on which to base a campaign of integrity.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 10:38 pm
You lefties are really desperate, aren’t you. Trying to find one little area where your man managed to make even a small dent and the only one you can find, that really exists, as opposed to being in your hallucination, is that where your man descends to the gutter and below.
As a matter of fact, would not be surprised if you scummy little fucks designed it. Bit of Blue State Digital research: go and look at every single thing Key ever said in 2009, we’ll use it in the first debate.
Wouldn’t be surprised at all, given the level you lefty scum permanently operate at. Disgusting creatures, aren’t you.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 10:47 pm
Wateva Nookin. It’s more than just raising GST though isnt it ?. Goff called him out on the decade of deficits as well. But hmmmm…how many families have suffered because Goff may or may not have been briefed on Israeli spies or monged a photo op ?
Compare that with the ‘fiscally neutral’ tax swap to boost high earners take home pay funded from an across the board rise in GST ?
Spin all you like, obfuscate til the cows come home, misdirect to the point of believing your own bullshit. Simple truths resonate with simple folk and we as NZers are fairly simple. We know when we can’t make ends meet that some politician telling us we’re not likely to be worse off by raising GST is utter crap. So to put it simply once again.
JOHN KEY IS A LIAR AND CANNOT BE TRUSTED.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 10:56 pm
we as NZers are fairly simple
Well, you are, Black. Let’s be honest.
Adding 2.5% to the CPI is NOT financial armaggedon to anyone and if it is, they simply don’t know how to use their money.
OTOH, there are a lot of whingers and complainers who prefer to use OPM and do nothing but complain they don’t have enough of it, which Liarbore politicians do nothing but placate, in their immense selfishness.
For the reason our country doesn’t work, is cos of thousands and thousands of occupiers, bludgers, Blacks and phils. Imagine for example, if everyone did what phil does. This is what Liarbore advocate and this is what they want.
And you Black, vote for them. You make me sick.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 11:06 pm
well don’t forget to take your meds then reid.
For the reason our country doesn’t work, is cos of thousands of greedy self serving fatcat fuckers are dodging their taxes and buying off politicians sucking hard on the public tit to ensure it stays that way.
FIFY…no thanks neccessary.
BTW i don’t know who i’m going to vote for yet.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 11:07 pm
That’s the sad legacy Labour have gifted us Reid.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 11:10 pm
Black my reply to phil clearly also applies to you:
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2011/10/tax_cuts_for_the_rich.html#comment-896268
That’s the sad legacy Labour have gifted us Reid.
What really fucks me off noskire, is the smart ones, like Trev, Hulun and Phil, know it’s bullshit. And they know the damage they are doing. But they just do it anyway. The idiots like phil and Black, I just feel sorry for.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 11:33 pm
oh fuck off with your fake ass sympathy reid and for fucks sake chill the fuck out. I’d hate to have you going into full cardiac arrest on my account weighing me down.
…and clearly your reply to Phil doesn’t apply to me in the slightest. What is clear however is that you’re moronn for thinking so.
Vote:October 31st, 2011 at 11:37 pm
“National and Labour could switch policies and Key could be up there talking about no asset sales and Goff talking about partial privatisation and it would make fuck all difference to the polling. Because that’s how fucking stupid the average ‘mum and dad’ voter are. 100/100 voters you survey will tell you that the reason they prefer Key over Goff, it’ll be because “he seems like a nice guy”. If you ask them to explain the economic implications of asset sales they’ll just be like duhhhh.
Fuck election time pisses me off.”
Yeah well guess what mate, that’s what democracy is all about. Giving those silly mums and dads the right to vote because what ordinary people think matters, not just the educated elite. Maybe we should just scrap elections and let you run the country, hmmm?
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 12:33 am
I think it fair to say that Goff won this first round, well and truly. Except for the segment on Afghanistan, where Key held his own and sounded more authoritative.
On the whole, Key looked nervous (notice his hand wringing?); couldn’t make eye-contact with Goff; and had an awful, smarmy smile that only his mum could love.
I think Key has good cause to be worried – they’ve underestimated ole Goffy!
Worst question of the night; the twit asking about NZ’s bloody flag! *ouch!*
# swan (106) Says:
October 31st, 2011 at 9:19 pm
“Actually, as a typically national/act voter who dislikes 99% of Labours policies, I thought Goff did quite well. Didnt see the first 15 min though. Couldn’t quite understand what the female pundit was going on about.”
Have to agree.
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 3:55 am
I’ve not yet watched the debate apart from a short clip on Stuff but my 18 year old first time voting niece tweeted what a nasty tool Phil Goff came across as. She’s a true floating voter and has a quiet National voting father and an outspoken likely Green voting mother. If that’s the response of an entirely a political first look voter then Phil’s in more trouble than I thought.
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 3:57 am
If Labour is true to form, this blog will feature a number of astroturfing ‘floating voters’ who will pop up to criticize Key all under the guise of objectively viewing the election campaign.
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 6:29 am
KIA
Like this from BWAV: “BTW i don’t know who i’m going to vote for yet”?
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 6:43 am
“..As a matter of fact, would not be surprised if you scummy little fucks designed it…”
no no reid..it is all keys’ own words/work..
..key was the one who told that string of bare-faced lying ‘promises’ before the last election…
..and then went on to break them…
..not us ‘scummy little fucks.’..
..so the big change in the last 24 hrs is that key has been hung out to dry as a serial-liar…
..which means that nothing he says between now and the election can really be believed…
..that is quite a serious development..for key/nact..
..and the reason reid is foam-flecking all over his monitor..
..is that he has been one of those riding that election-result gloating-triumphalism meme..
..and he now has the rancid smell of fear/defeat wafting around his nostrils..
..he will..i fear..only become more fevered between now and election-day..
..phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 6:45 am
Wow – I know it was Halloween but were Goff and Key obliged to act like they were auditioning for The Walking Dead? No horrible FUBARs from either side, but nothing I see grabbing the attention of a swing voter.
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 6:49 am
and when reading the words/predictions/ramblings of/from kiwi in america…
..the reader should remember he/she spent months posting long screeds here..telling us all how clinton would defeat obama for the nomination..
..followed by more daily screeds….for months..telling us how mccain/palin wd defeat obama in the actual election..
..and then a long sullen silence…
…is he now going for three for three…?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 6:54 am
Cut thru all the personal hack-abuse above, the facts are: TV1 viewers’ poll
Vote:Key 61% Goff 39%. Just like the other polls. JK won the debate. Simple.
November 1st, 2011 at 7:36 am
sure imp..that is why tv is constantly re-running the key lying-footage…eh..?
..showing key ‘winning’..?
key was really hurt by that debate..
..key is now framed in voters’ eyes as a liar..
..and he will find that very hard to shake..
..between now and voting-day..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 7:38 am
@ big bruv – it won’t worry Phil if the Greens sell out to John key; he’s followed all the losers to Mana
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 7:45 am
I love the flood of leftest retards hanging out here pretending to be the voice of the people who just happen to think Goff did better than Key in the debate
You are all a joke
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 7:50 am
lance..if goff had tanked…and key been all over him..that is what i would be saying..
..but he didn’t..and he wasn’t
..i really thing the ‘retards’ are those..who ..in their ideological-blindness…despite key being successfully framed as a liar…
..are claiming ‘key won’..
(shine on..!..you crazy diamonds..!..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 7:53 am
“..it won’t worry Phil if the Greens sell out to John key; he’s followed all the losers to Mana..”
that is actually incorrect..
..this is the thread on frogblog where i have been vehemently arguing against such a possibility/the very idea…
http://blog.greens.org.nz/2011/10/25/general-debate-october-25-2011/
..i want both the greens and mana to do well..
..and then to unite in a negotiating-bloc…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 7:59 am
Edwards when talking about the Labour Party will do anything to talk up the old cow. On that topic he has deeply compromised his journalistic usefulness. Goff did not beat Key indeed most if not all gave Key a points win. Goff can be a good debater but he has had too many positions on public policy issues to have any credibility. Goff has no firm convictions on anything.
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 8:13 am
so..tvb..who came out of it proven to be a liar..?
..key or goff..?
..do try to be a little more impartial/less one-eyed..eh..?
.you are doing yrslf no (credibility) favours..
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 8:17 am
I reckon it was pretty much 50/50. Neither impressed me all that much. Phil attacked Key too much. Key did well early on, not as good towards the end. Phil talking about folk he’s spoken to was a good touch and he had no notes. Key had notes but stuck to the message better than Phil did who referred to “John” too much, allowing Key to get another word in.
Espinor didn’t do too badly. Whoever chose the video questions was an idiot – many of them were inane (who gives a shit about the flag at this point?) – it’s a pity that neither Goff or Key said that it was inane strongly enough. Similarly, many of them were rambling rather than direct questions.
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 8:32 am
Like this from BWAV: “BTW i don’t know who i’m going to vote for yet”?
It’s a dinamic world we live in. Anything can change between now and the election.
You’re not calling me a liar are you ? One thing though is, i’ve never been called an astroturfer before. I’m more of a taro planter than anything.
and of course knowing your views, it’s not possible she was sucking up to Uncle for hopefully a nicer xmas prezzy eh ? Sounds like shes playing you for a tool.
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 8:43 am
whenever key says/promises something..from now on..
the auto-response/question should be..”just how ‘dynamic’ is that promise/situation..?..mr key..?..”
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 8:49 am
Phil you really are a stupid git. We live in a dynamic world. Assets sales were appropraite for Goff when he was in office. Not now it seems. Captial Gains tax was wholly innappropriate for Goff not 12 montha ago. Not now it seems.
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 8:52 am
‘dynamic’..has joined ‘asset-sales’..on the list of key/defining-words in this election-campaign…
(suggested-lines/uses..?..
..’you’re just dynamicing me..!’..
..’you old dynamicer you..!’
..’i've had enough of yr dynamics..!..’
..suggested movie titles..’sex, dynamics % videotape’..
..and if you wanted to go all historical/international..?..
‘i did not have dynamic with that woman!.’…
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 11:10 am
philu
Vote:How did your 2008 projection that Clark would win work out? Every time you raise a 3 year old prediction of mine you invite scrutiny on your own pathetic track record.
November 1st, 2011 at 11:18 am
No Black you’re not an astroturfer – you’re a reliable lefty who will always shill for Labour. I was targetting my comments at all these interesting new people posting …like Francis X.
Vote:November 1st, 2011 at 3:31 pm
I just don’t like bare faced LIARS eh ! They cannot be trusted, especially not running the country. If that means i’m shilling for Labour then whatever man.
I’d say I’m more shilling against Key.
Vote: