Conservative Party policy?

November 17th, 2011 at 9:32 am by David Farrar

The said that they have not written all their election policy yet. Stuff reports on what it could be:

THE MIDDLE FINGER: Swearing and making rude gestures are criminal acts … and may result in significant penalties.

KISSING: Public displays of affection, such as holding hands and kissing, are socially unacceptable … arrests for public displays of affection.

UNDRESSED: In situations other than the beach or swimming pool, a woman’s clothing might be considered indecent if it is tight, transparent, above the knee or shows her stomach, shoulders or back.CHATTING UP WOMEN: It is illegal to harass women. This includes unwanted conversation, prolonged stares and glaring.

SEX: Sex outside marriage is banned. Homosexual acts and prostitution are illegal and subject to severe punishment.DRINK DRIVING: It is illegal to have any alcohol in your blood when driving.

DRUGS: a zero-tolerance policy towards drugs and penalties for drug trafficking include the death penalty or life in jail.

Dime should be very worried!

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76 Responses to “Conservative Party policy?”

  1. backster (2,079 comments) says:

    What bloody left wing nonsense. It doesn’t surprise me that the left wing media continues to promote left wing propaganda but that what portends to be a centrist blog should aid them in that endeavour.

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  2. GJ (329 comments) says:

    I think they could do better than expected. Beleive a poll is currently being undertaken in Rodney to see how Colin Craig is rating. If he does happen to come out ahead, it could be a real game changer. About 20% of his votes for Mayor came out of Rodney, so he is certainly well respected in that electorate.
    Why do NZ’s always want change, but never really want to give a new party a fair go?

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  3. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    No sleazing on women? Luc Hansen’s fucked

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  4. East Wellington Superhero (1,151 comments) says:

    I’ll be voting Nat but consider myself conservative. These comments show how prejudice and bigoted ‘liberal’ writers are.

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  5. Akaroa (541 comments) says:

    Now look here DPF, this just will not do! Delaying your first post until after 9.00 am – and this on a week/working day too – is just not acceptable. If you are going to take on the responsibility of fronting or overseeing a public blog- (yes, yes, I know its YOURS!!) – or, to be more precise a medium to which the public at large have access and commenting rights, then you ought at least try to maintain some semblance of order by ensuring that it appears at a time each day that the devotees out there can rely on. I have tried numerous times this morning to see what burning topics/burning issues of the day were to occupy your correspondents today only to find yesterday’s stale topics still predominated, and – when at last something did eventually appear – i’m disappointed in you to find its mindless frivolity. Come come, man, get a grip of yours elf and your blog!!

    [DPF: Blame Jadis. I finished work at midnight and normally crash around then, but she insisted I join her for drinks in Cuba Street, so woke up later than normal!]

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  6. Put it away (2,888 comments) says:

    Backster, “portend” is not a synonym of “pretend”.

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  7. Manolo (13,371 comments) says:

    More left wing crap spouted by Stuff and spread by the (il)liberal, gullible and naive!

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  8. polemic (360 comments) says:

    Maybe the Conservatives actually represent quite a number of Kiwis who do have some values that are worth upholding in a declining World.

    Principles that actually respect women and the Family.

    “A man without values is no man”

    And they have the guts to stand up for them while all around the declining family unit is broken up and look at the results, prisons full of thugs and criminals that believe only in hand outs and that they have a right to be cared for by the State with no personal responsibility and they have often come from divided homes – Chris Kahui isnt the only one.

    Just because the media choose what the public should see/read/hear, the backbone of NZ is still working class/battlers who only function normally in a family unit where love, respect and personal responsibility is taught by example, Dad, Mum and the kids !!

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  9. dime (9,435 comments) says:

    Yea Dimes not feeling good!

    Chest hurts, shortness of breath, cold sweats, shotting pain up my left arm, impending sense of doom!

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  10. Manolo (13,371 comments) says:

    Chest hurts, shortness of breath, cold sweats, shotting pain up my left arm, impending sense of doom

    Who is speaking: dim or the bludger Ure going cold turkey? :-)

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  11. Fletch (6,025 comments) says:

    I’ll probably vote Conservative, for my party vote anyway.

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  12. dime (9,435 comments) says:

    lol i hope you didnt intentionally leave the E off my name manolo!

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  13. Manolo (13,371 comments) says:

    dime, Completely unintentional, of course. I apologise for my mistake.

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  14. LabourDoesntWork (282 comments) says:

    Not even funny, just stupid. It’s the left that is regressive in its policies. Let’s keep beating that dead wealth-redistribution and social welfare horse, right? …Because policies should be judged by intentions not outcomes: Although we’ve been subsidising choices that lead to negative social outcomes, and thus getting more of both, for decades, we can always pat ourselves on the back for not wanting the poor to starve like those evil right-wingers do. Excuse me while I soothingly pat myself on my left-wing back. Ahhhhhh…feels better already!

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  15. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    polemic (263) Says:
    November 17th, 2011 at 10:11 am


    “love, respect and personal responsibility”

    “prisons full of thugs and criminals that believe only in hand outs and that they have a right to be cared for by the State with no personal responsibility and they have often come from divided homes”

    Conservatives never seem to explain what love, respect and personal responsibility have to do with their anti-homosexual bigotry… oops did I say anti-homosexual bigotry? I meant “family values”.

    It’s also interesting that according to the Conservative Party website their solution to social issues is to bring back the right of parents to assault their children. Yet, while you rabble on about prisons, about half of all prisoners are Maori and the problem with Maori families is not that there is a shortage of violence in the home. These children aren’t growing up as social misfits because of anti-smacking legislation. Their parents are not afraid to hit them and are much more likely to hit them as compared to Pakeha parents.

    As to who the conservative party represents? This guy is probably a typical example:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVil0y3kUu4&oref

    Good “family values” sort of man. :)

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  16. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    # Fletch (2,146) Says:
    November 17th, 2011 at 10:50 am

    I’ll probably vote Conservative, for my party vote anyway.

    Yes, please do! lol :)

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  17. Elaycee (4,301 comments) says:

    “Tags: Conservative Party, Satire”

    Hello? Anybody home?

    Thought not. :D

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  18. David Garrett (6,427 comments) says:

    THAT is supposed to be satire?? It just demonstrates how utterly woeful our political “journalists” have become…. The yoof on here won’t even remember the likes of Exel, Walker, Beatson, even dear old Dr Brian….THEY were political journalists…

    As it happens I am working on a little surprise for Fairfax Media….a bridge too far and all that….

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  19. Scott Chris (5,880 comments) says:

    Put it away says:- “Backster, “portend” is not a synonym of “pretend”.”

    Presumably the word he wanted was “purports”

    As for the Stuff article: Not funny enough, but I agree with the sentiment.

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  20. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    I’ll probably party vote Conservative as well. If only give a vote to the ideal – have no idea what the reality of the Conservative Party will be like.

    And Weihana, you know full well that a smack on the bottom is not assault.

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  21. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    # LabourDoesntWork (180) Says:
    November 17th, 2011 at 11:08 am

    Not even funny, just stupid. It’s the left that is regressive in its policies. Let’s keep beating that dead wealth-redistribution and social welfare horse, right? …Because policies should be judged by intentions not outcomes: Although we’ve been subsidising choices that lead to negative social outcomes, and thus getting more of both, for decades, we can always pat ourselves on the back for not wanting the poor to starve like those evil right-wingers do. Excuse me while I soothingly pat myself on my left-wing back. Ahhhhhh…feels better already!

    If wealth redistribution and social welfare are a inherent problem, why do countries like Norway and Sweden consistently place at or near the top of world rankings on matters like standard of living? They also tend to place near the bottom in terms of their crime rate. What’s going on if welfare is supposed to, in accordance with conservative theory, erode the productive base and fuel crime?

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  22. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Lucia,


    And Weihana, you know full well that a smack on the bottom is not assault.

    No I don’t agree. Hitting with the intention of causing physical pain constitutes violence and is unacceptable in my view. It’s usually not much of a crime and police should use discretion appropriately. But the expectation should be that parents use non-violent methods to control their children.

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  23. Scott (1,707 comments) says:

    I think you are confusing Conservatives with Muslims there DPF.
    But look what you have started- Weihana- the craziest of opinions as always. A perfect poster child for every crack pot “progressive” view now extant and some yet to see the light of day.

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  24. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    Weihana,

    Most people would disagree with you. And considering that we supposedly live a democracy, the law criminalising smacking should be overturned, even though extremists such as yourself consider smacking to be violence.

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  25. GJ (329 comments) says:

    Weihana: Sadly you are one of the many that have believed the lie about child abuse and its connection to discipline. Our problem is we have now brought up a generation that has no idea on consequences for wrong behaviour. A good parent is now fearful of correcting their child with a GOOD smack (it should hurt but not be abuse) and our children are worse off for it. As for that Judge, well he should be locked up as with both words and force he abused his child and that is NOT what a smack is all about. A good smack is to correct and the child must understand what it is that they have done wrong.
    Personally I would like to see corporal punishment brought back to schools to restore order and respect back into the classroom. It did my generation no harm at all and you have to ask the question “has behaviour improved or deteriorated since it was removed?” The answer is obvious just read the papers.

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  26. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Scott,

    Conservatives have a lot in common with Muslims. Both share a socially conservative attitude towards sex. Indeed homosexual acts and prostitution were illegal in this country not that long ago and it is a fair bet that the Conservative Party would support turning back the clock on those changes. This would, of course, follow their “non-political inquiry into family breakdown”.

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  27. Viking2 (11,132 comments) says:

    Doesn’t this just mirror the current National Party thinking. Empty suits and goody two shoes all.

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  28. adze (1,864 comments) says:

    Weihana,
    Just to play devils advocate for a moment.
    Is there something specific about all forms of violence that in your view, makes it always bad? The use of smacking and other milder forms of physical discipline is generally used by parents as a mild negative stimulus when appeals to reason or verbal commands to avoid much worse outcomes (eg. Unsafe activity) are proving to be insufficient. In other words, a last resort.
    Is it the intentional use of negative stimulus that’s bad? If so, what distinguishes the negative stimulus of mild physical pain with the psychology pain of admonishment, or being placed in time out (for example)? Likewise, if it is the use of negative stimulus to subjugate the will of the child is bad, how can this be distinguished from the former examples?

    And if it is simply causing pain that’s bad, how can this be distinguished from a dentist appointment or a flu jab?

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  29. JamesS (352 comments) says:

    As far as I can tell the only policy the Conservative party actually has is to reintroduce depreciation allowances on investment properties, the usual “we hate gays and abortionists” ranting is just perepheral nonsense.

    Apparently the only reason the party was created was because poor old Colin Craig has now become a taxpayer and belives unproductive investment should be rewarded.

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  30. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    Weihana,

    Muslims are very different from Conservatives with regards to sex.

    Muslims have no problem with men having multiple wives, Conservatives believe in one man one woman in a marriage.
    Muslims will employ “temporary marriage” to get around the moral issues of prostitution.
    Homosexuality is very prevalent in Islamic countries (it’s just kept quiet) because of the limited number of women available due to plural marriage.

    Try again.

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  31. LabourDoesntWork (282 comments) says:

    What’s going on if welfare is supposed to, in accordance with conservative theory, erode the productive base and fuel crime?

    Norway and Sweden have traditionally been highly homogenous societies. This would help as a stopper on the divide and conquer strategy that welfare and demagoguery accompanying leftwing policies has in other countries. That leads to generational depedency as the left actively makes up excuses for minorities not to do well. I’d say there is greater shame in being a “victim” and dependent on welfare absent of these factors, within a culturally and racially homogenous society. These cultural factors would tend to undermine the kind of excuses that the left makes for lower social strata elsewhere.

    But Norway and Sweden are NOT so homogenous any more, shockingly so given such a short time span for change. Maybe you’re not up on things, but Muslim immigrants are transforming their cities and their society in a major way. The news stories out of these places are amazing, especially the rape statistics and the fear of emergency personel and even police to enter Muslim controlled neighbourhoods. This stratified society results in part from new immigrants who are attracted to the generous welfare state in these countries and Europe generally. They refuse to assimilate, thanks to their Islamic mentality (I would admit this isn’t just about the welfare state–but it’s a big part), have no desire to become Swedish, Dutch, British etc, as the case may be, and show up massively in the unemployment statistics. It’s not just the welfare state, but that’s a prime enabler.

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  32. dime (9,435 comments) says:

    “Homosexuality is very prevalent in Islamic countries (it’s just kept quiet) because of the limited number of women available due to plural marriage.”

    so its kinda like prison? ouch

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  33. grumpyoldhori (2,410 comments) says:

    adze , well to play the devil’s advocate you would not whine if one of my 120 kg lads smacked you would you ?
    Would a mild amount of negative stimulus do you good ?

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  34. swan (659 comments) says:

    The conservative party and the left (mana, greens, labour) are pretty similar in a lot of ways. They seek to control others, they just disagree on which customs, rituals, and dogma to follow.

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  35. Bo (1 comment) says:

    DPF – The polls are suggesting that the majority of NZers want a National led government but no asset sales. Neither Act nor United will stop the asset sales, but the Conservatives say they will. If the Conservatives hold the balance of power it seems to me they would be likley to support National on confidence and supply provided they don’t sell the state assets, but have little influence beyond that. I believe National have failed to make the case on asset sales and the nationwide strategic voting option with quite broad appeal is therefore to party vote Conservative. Why do you think people shouldn’t?

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  36. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    # Lucia Maria (807) Says:
    November 17th, 2011 at 12:07 pm

    Weihana,


    Most people would disagree with you.

    So? Most people are dumb, obviously. :)


    And considering that we supposedly live a democracy, the law criminalising smacking should be overturned, even though extremists such as yourself consider smacking to be violence.

    I disagree, rather since we live in a democracy those that know should inform those who are ignorant so that they can vote accordingly. The reality is that there is pretty much a consensus amongst child welfare groups that corporal punishment is, on the whole, harmful and that non-violent means of correction should be used and achieve superior results.

    Indeed Sweden has had a ban since 1979 and contrary to the Conservative Dogma their society has not experienced negative consequences.

    “…rates of child abuse appear to have declined; the number of referrals to St. Göan’s Hospital in Stockholm, which receives all child maltreatment cases, had declined by 1989 to one-sixth of the 1970 rate (Haeuser, 1988). By the mid-1980s, Swedish rates of physical discipline and child abuse were half those found in the U.S. (Gelles & Edfeldt, 1986; Haeuser, 1988), and the Swedish rate of child death due to abuse was less than one-third the American rate (Gregersen & Vesterby, 1984). ”

    http://www.nospank.net/durrant.htm

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  37. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    Dime,

    It’s like prison in more ways than one.

    Here’s an example: Afghanistan, where women are for children and boys are for pleasure.

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  38. adze (1,864 comments) says:

    GOH, can I assume from your question that you are against violence under all circumstances then?

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  39. TEO (33 comments) says:

    Weihana

    “Hitting with the intention of causing physical pain constitutes violence and is unacceptable in my view.”

    Guess you had to boycott the RWC then? All contact sports for that matter.
    What a dull life. You can’t even do a decent haka with ethics like that.

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  40. publicwatchdog (2,107 comments) says:

    Anyone know what the Conservative Party policy is on a ‘Capital Gains Tax’?

    Given that Colin Craig – Leader of the Conservative Party is a millionaire property developer, and David Whitburn, Head of Auckland Property Investors Association, has described Labour’s Capital Gains Tax as their ‘least-favoured’ policy?

    (Recent Herald on Sunday ‘Biz leaders: policies that pass go’ article (not on-line), 13 November 2011, Susan Edmunds).

    Penny Bright

    Independent Candidate for Epsom
    Campaigning against ‘white collar’ CRIME, CORRUPTION (and its root cause – PRIVATISATION) and ‘CORPORATE WELFARE.

    waterpressure@gmail.com

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  41. graham (2,215 comments) says:

    Reading these comments, I have to ask – how many of you actually clicked on the link?

    You DO realise that DPF’s taking the piss, don’t you?

    Here’s a clue: the article he links to is entitled “How to avoid arrest in Dubai” …

    [DPF: Heh, has been such fun]

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  42. V (668 comments) says:

    Tell you what though when an arrival card of a country states:
    “IMPORTATION OF DRUGS IS PUNISHABLE BY DEATH” it is sobering and you know they mean business!

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  43. TEO (33 comments) says:

    Weihana

    “If wealth redistribution and social welfare are a inherent problem, why do countries like Norway and Sweden consistently place at or near the top of world rankings on matters like standard of living?”

    Because they actually have wealth to redistribute. Norway in particular ain’t afraid to Drill it, Mine it, Pump it, etc. Big oil money And Sweden does a great job of managing their beautiful native timbers: something we should have started doing years ago instead of planting that weed pinus radiata everywhere.

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  44. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    # GJ (322) Says:
    November 17th, 2011 at 12:08 pm


    Weihana: Sadly you are one of the many that have believed the lie about child abuse and its connection to discipline.

    Hitting is not discipline, it is punishment. Discipline is about being under control. Hitting is one method advocated to make children controllable through fear of physical pain. But its effectiveness at producing such control is questionable and alternative methods work just as well if not better.


    Our problem is we have now brought up a generation that has no idea on consequences for wrong behaviour.

    Straw man. Consequences can be imposed without hitting.


    A good parent is now fearful of correcting their child with a GOOD smack (it should hurt but not be abuse) and our children are worse off for it.

    Nonsense. The Swedish experience shows quite the opposite.


    As for that Judge, well he should be locked up as with both words and force he abused his child and that is NOT what a smack is all about. A good smack is to correct and the child must understand what it is that they have done wrong.

    You have failed to elucidate the difference between what the judge did and what you advocate in principle. The judge hit his child in a manner that hurt in order to induce fear of such pain so that she did not commit the prohibited act for which she was being punished. This is what smacking is. It is punishment to induce fear of that punishment to coerce conformity to a desired standard of behaviour.

    Note I wouldn’t equate this judge to your average parent who smacks because 1. his daughter was not a little girl but almost an adult, 2. he used an instrument which increases the physical force exerted and the pain experienced, and 3. there seemed to be some rather sick sexual overtones in that video. But aside from the sexual overtones, what he did was only different in degree. In principle it was just the same as any smack.


    Personally I would like to see corporal punishment brought back to schools to restore order and respect back into the classroom. It did my generation no harm at all and you have to ask the question “has behaviour improved or deteriorated since it was removed?” The answer is obvious just read the papers.

    Just read the papers? Oh dear. Media hype: good source for information!

    Corporal punishment in schools, as in the home, is harmful to young people. It teaches kids that when they think they are right, and they are more powerful than someone else, it is acceptable to use violence against that person to force compliance. This fuels bullying and this has been with us long before kids had cell phones on which to record it.

    In any case order can be maintained in schools quite easily without corporal punishment. In my experience (without corporal punishment) the vast majority of teachers were quite capable of maintaining discipline without violence. Some can’t and they should probably find alternative careers.

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  45. TEO (33 comments) says:

    LDW

    Agreed. ‘Multiculturalism’ is sending the scandies down the gurgler. Mate recently returned from Finland says the tension there is palpable.

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  46. TEO (33 comments) says:

    Penny

    Heard Col in an iv recently. He denies being a property developer. Might want to double check your facts there.
    He’s quite coherent. Might get my protest party vote.

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  47. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    # adze (928) Says:
    November 17th, 2011 at 12:32 pm

    Weihana,
    Just to play devils advocate for a moment.
    Is there something specific about all forms of violence that in your view, makes it always bad? The use of smacking and other milder forms of physical discipline is generally used by parents as a mild negative stimulus when appeals to reason or verbal commands to avoid much worse outcomes (eg. Unsafe activity) are proving to be insufficient. In other words, a last resort.

    Reason and verbal commands? That’s a last resort? Time-out? No pocket-money? No TV? Children depend on their parents for EVERYTHING. The world is yours to take away from them and this can be done without violence.


    Is it the intentional use of negative stimulus that’s bad? If so, what distinguishes the negative stimulus of mild physical pain with the psychology pain of admonishment, or being placed in time out (for example)? Likewise, if it is the use of negative stimulus to subjugate the will of the child is bad, how can this be distinguished from the former examples?

    It’s not bad because it’s a negative stimulus, it’s the nature of the act itself. Violence induces a different psychological response than other disincentives and also serves as a poor example for good conduct because it fails to teach children that a person’s body is sacrosanct and that no one has a right to violate the body of another person.


    And if it is simply causing pain that’s bad, how can this be distinguished from a dentist appointment or a flu jab?

    In my experience it is the fear of such treatment that is more painful than the treatment itself.

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  48. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    # LabourDoesntWork (181) Says:
    November 17th, 2011 at 1:07 pm


    Norway and Sweden have traditionally been highly homogenous societies….

    …It’s not just the welfare state, but that’s a prime enabler.

    Well no, allowing immigration of people who are undesirable would seem to be the problem. I fail to see the link between crime and welfare. It would seem to be a consequence of culture and not welfare. The answer is not to scrap welfare because that will not deter people when your country would still offer opportunities far above what can be offered in their home country. The answer is to limit immigration.

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  49. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    # TEO (21) Says:
    November 17th, 2011 at 1:39 pm

    Weihana

    “Hitting with the intention of causing physical pain constitutes violence and is unacceptable in my view.”

    Guess you had to boycott the RWC then? All contact sports for that matter.
    What a dull life. You can’t even do a decent haka with ethics like that.

    What a stupid analogy. There’s a world of difference between playing a rugby match and going up to someone and tackling them. One is a game between consenting participants, the other will see you locked up for disorderly behaviour.

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  50. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    Graham,

    The thread has morphed, as they do when some one says something really silly and they are called on it.

    Weihana,

    A good parent is now fearful of correcting their child with a GOOD smack (it should hurt but not be abuse) and our children are worse off for it.

    Nonsense. The Swedish experience shows quite the opposite.

    I’ll break this to you gently …. Durrant is not a good source for what’s happening in Sweden. She misrepresents the research and poor schmucks believe her. What’s actually happened in Sweden is that hundreds of families have had their children taken away from them just for smacking and Sweden’s child on child attacks have increased six-fold from when the anti-smacking legislation was put into place. There’s also been a big increase in parents using pinching as punishment, because it’s painful and it can be done surreptitiously.

    I did a series of posts on this years ago – here’s one: Smack smoke and mirrors.

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  51. Mick Mac (1,091 comments) says:

    graham (145) Says:
    November 17th, 2011 at 1:43 pm
    It’s either a piss take or an character assassination!

    Based on their website and the way their newspaper flyers excoriate the holy one, DPF’s own JK
    I’m wouldn’t be surprised at the latter.
    Bearing in mind this is an election year and DPF is very supportive of National I don’t think it can be taken as jest.

    I’ve just done a google and looked at their website and to be frank most of what they say is common sense.
    yeah could be a good protest party vote.
    have to look some more.

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  52. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    TEO (21) Says:
    November 17th, 2011 at 1:48 pm

    Because they actually have wealth to redistribute. Norway in particular ain’t afraid to Drill it, Mine it, Pump it, etc.

    Agreed. But it would still appear true that having a strong welfare state is not necessarily a hinderence to economic progress and prosperity. Indeed it isn’t with us either. For all its problems we are still a wealthy prosperous society and our welfare system isn’t going to change that. It just seems to me that conservatives talk about the welfare system as if its the path to destruction and the second coming.

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  53. Mick Mac (1,091 comments) says:

    yeah Weihana
    87% of the pop are dumb.
    I guess that makes you one of the 13% bright ones then.

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  54. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    Tried to edit my comment above because I included something in blockquotes that shouldn’t have been, but Firefox kept crashing. O how painful. Am I being punished for something? Here’s the comment again, this time fixed up.

    Weihana,

    A good parent is now fearful of correcting their child with a GOOD smack (it should hurt but not be abuse) and our children are worse off for it.

    Nonsense. The Swedish experience shows quite the opposite.

    I’ll break this to you gently …. Durrant is not a good source for what’s happening in Sweden. She misrepresents the research and poor schmucks believe her. What’s actually happened in Sweden is that hundreds of families have had their children taken away from them just for smacking and Sweden’s child on child attacks have increased six-fold from when the anti-smacking legislation was put into place. There’s also been a big increase in parents using pinching as punishment, because it’s painful and it can be done surreptitiously.

    I did a series of posts on this years ago – here’s one: Smack smoke and mirrors.

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  55. Mick Mac (1,091 comments) says:

    Weihana
    How long have the Swedes & Norwegens etc had to build up their reserves?
    With the Islamics coming to town, once they get to a certain % that is going to change.

    Notice how the Malmo Police aren’t publicly giving the ethnic Id of rape offenders any more?
    Because in the last 5 yrs they have all NOT been born in the country but are immigrants.
    Guess who they are?

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  56. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    # Mick Mac (512) Says:
    November 17th, 2011 at 2:29 pm

    yeah Weihana
    87% of the pop are dumb.
    I guess that makes you one of the 13% bright ones then.

    Yes, well done. :)

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  57. Bob R (1,336 comments) says:

    ***If wealth redistribution and social welfare are a inherent problem, why do countries like Norway and Sweden consistently place at or near the top of world rankings on matters like standard of living? They also tend to place near the bottom in terms of their crime rate. What’s going on if welfare is supposed to, in accordance with conservative theory, erode the productive base and fuel crime?***

    That is because they are populated by Swedes and Norwegians. Those people have low crime rates in other countries too.

    “But the welfare state is not the only thing which sets Scandinavia apart. Swedes and other Scandinavians have a homogenous population with one of the world cultures best adapted to success. They have high cooperativeness, trustworthiness, work ethic, civic participation, family values and individual responsibility (Scandinavians are politically liberal but personally conservative). You notice this if you live amongst them and think about the importance of norms and culture for economic outcomes…

    The Swedish economy had extraordinarily high growth before the creation of the welfare state, the second highest in the world. Swedish 19th century immigrants to the U.S to this day score above the American average in most metrics, despite obviously having no Scandinavian style welfare state…

    Likely, the strong norms and high productivity of Scandinavians meant that the cost of experimenting with a welfare state was lower. For a while at least, these policies worked, though they tended to quickly cause disaster in other countries.”

    http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2011/10/welfare-state-and-causality.html

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  58. Scott Chris (5,880 comments) says:

    Simple really. For some people, smacking kids is culturally acceptable violence.

    For others, striking to intentionally inflict pain amounts to assault, and therefore, abuse.

    I number myself amongst the latter group. The only time my parents ever hit me is because they’d lost patience and gotten angry.

    Not a good look, especially when ‘time out’ is far more effective and allows both parties to cool off.

    Apart from anything else, why would society want to advocate lashing out as a reasonable response to anger and impatience?

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  59. Fletch (6,025 comments) says:

    What is interesting is that lefties and liberals love to poke fun at traditional values, yet according to the last issue of North and South magazine I read, parents are desperate to get their children enrolled in faith-based Christian schools here; it said they would do almost anything. That suggests to me that parents are sick and tired of the liberal crap that children are indoctrinated with in secular education, and are looking for a return to good, old fashioned models.

    In the same way, Madonna won’t let her child watch MTV because it is a bad influence. Quite ironic that the queen of (almost blasphemic) bad taste, won’t let her child have a dose of the medicine that Madonna has been dishing out to the young for years.

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  60. Bob R (1,336 comments) says:

    ***Apart from anything else, why would society want to advocate lashing out as a reasonable response to anger and impatience?***

    Scott Chris, you’re redefining “smacking” as “lashing out”.

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  61. kowtow (7,631 comments) says:

    I’d now like to see something in similar vein on the Mana or Maori Party or is it only conservatives that are OK to be lampooned by our shit MSM?

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  62. Bob R (1,336 comments) says:

    @ kowtow, this is why I read blogs like Auster’s View from the Right and Steve Sailer’s iSteve. They provide some balance to the MSM.

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  63. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    Conservatives are just right-wing socialists… socialists of the soul. Like their economically challenged friends on the left they wish to impose their values upon every one else in the social sphere.

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  64. Batman (97 comments) says:

    Mick Mac and all those who cite the 2009 referenda: Despite the fact that the question was worded poorly, lets look at the result.

    87.4% of the 56.09% of eligible voters who cast valid votes said a smack shouldn’t be a crime (1.4m). I believe (from a rough guess) that that is in a fact a minority of the population, and in fact the majority of New Zealanders either don’t care enough about the question, or think it should be a crime (1.5-2.5m kiwis).

    So who is right here? neither really, the low turnout means that the referenda has barely enough legitimacy to even begin to force the government’s hand (no matter which party is in govt).

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  65. eyemedianz (3 comments) says:

    I’ll be voting for the Conservative party – I like their policies and their brochure is a good read, actual policy based on sound principles. Principles that the National party used to support.

    My husband is also voting Conservative he took
    Their questionnaire ‘Are you a conservative?’
    And scored 19 out of 19.

    I just wish they had a candidate in Mana but I won’t be voting for Hekia Parata
    And definitely party vote conservative,

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  66. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Lucia Maria (811) Says:
    November 17th, 2011 at 2:29 pm


    I’ll break this to you gently …. Durrant is not a good source for what’s happening in Sweden. She misrepresents the research and poor schmucks believe her. What’s actually happened in Sweden is that hundreds of families have had their children taken away from them just for smacking and Sweden’s child on child attacks have increased six-fold from when the anti-smacking legislation was put into place.

    I followed your link whereupon another link was found:

    http://www.christian.org.uk/pdfpublications/sweden_smacking.pdf

    As usual, a social conservative cites a “believer”. ;)

    Durrant has rebutted the claims of Larzelere:

    http://umanitoba.ca/faculties/human_ecology/media/Durrant_2.pdf


    3. Larzelere’s claim: Physical assaults of children have increased.

    Response: Larzelere erroneously uses police reporting statistics as if they are rates of actual assault. He fails to recognize that reporting rates are highly vulnerable to changes in legal and cultural definitions of violence. As public sensitivity to violence increases, so do reporting rates. The proportion of total assault reports composed of aggravated assault reports has not increased, indicating that assaults are more likely to be reported, but their severity has not increased. A study by the National Crime Prevention Council supports the conclusion that the
    increase seen in reporting does not reflect a true increase in violence against children

    6. Larzelere’s claim: The 1979 corporal punishment ban has caused youth violence to increase.

    Response: Larzelere again presents police reporting statistics as if they are rates of actual assault. He
    does not acknowledge the powerful impact that anti-bullying initiatives have had on reporting of
    youth assault in Sweden. He misrepresents the conclusions of the Swedish criminologist, Dr. Hanns
    von Hofer, and does not address the findings of self-report and victimization studies that demonstrate
    stability in youth violence since 1971.

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  67. LabourDoesntWork (282 comments) says:

    Conservatives have a lot in common with Muslims. Both share a socially conservative attitude towards sex.

    Your moral nihilism is creeping in here. Are you so far out there that two centres of civilisation and tradition so different to each other merge as one?

    I can say accurately that pedophiles are liberal – is that meaningful? I think so. Since there is currently an attempt to remove adult-child sex from the American psychiatric diagnostic manual, pedophilia clearly does overlap with liberalism. (Unless every one of those psychiatrists are pedophiles …not mere liberals.)

    It just seems to me that conservatives talk about the welfare system as if its the path to destruction and the second coming.

    You’re exaggerating. The welfare system is primarily destructive to the people it supposedly benefits. There’s nothing wrong with a safety net but it’s grown far beyond that into subsidised irresponsible lifestyles, even for multiple family generations. For everyone else, it merely squanders some of their prosperity. The political debate in this country is dominated by the cheap sanctimony of the notion that welfare helps people. The evidence is in: beyond a safety net it becomes a trap. But, it’s good for buying votes.

    Re: Sweden
    Well no, allowing immigration of people who are undesirable would seem to be the problem. I fail to see the link between crime and welfare. It would seem to be a consequence of culture and not welfare. The answer is not to scrap welfare because that will not deter people when your country would still offer opportunities far above what can be offered in their home country. The answer is to limit immigration.

    I don’t think I disagree with what you say here, only your use of the Swedish situation to justify the welfare state there and elsewhere.

    Yes the cultural aspects of Swedish society – homogeneity plus an endemic low crime rate – are concurrent with a highly taxed welfare state. They also exist independently of Swedish welfarism, since they pre-exist it. That the welfare state doesn’t erase these is a testament to the strength of the cultural homogeneity of the Swedes and is an argument for cultural monoism. The left’s multiculturalism opposes that.

    The left doesn’t believe in a monocultural societal model, for Sweden or elsewhere. You probably don’t either. To the left, though they bring it up a lot Sweden is not really a model for everyone else: IT’S JUST AN ARGUMENT. It’s an argument for welfarism, to defend the entrenched welfare underclass the left exploits politically in virtually all other countries, including ours. I already mentioned the left’s excuse-making of social failure outside of the examples of Sweden and Norway. Welfare-generated underclasses whose votes have been nicely locked up for generations. The left supports any culture but the majority one, and attack those traditions and national identity (especially in Europe-or so they’ve tried with the EU). Referring to Sweden is playing both sides.

    Helen Clark’s a perfect example: She refers to Sweden as some kind of model society for everyone else; though the left does its best to foist multiculturalism, to run down the traditions of their own nations and promote EU fascism and anti-democracy as the cure to nationalism (and bankrupt welfarism). Clark et al are just fine with that, too. Convenient!

    It’s the leftwing multiculturalists that are committing national suicide in Sweden. What’s changed from the past is that now, finally, they have a large migrant population (of Muslims…even “better”!) to import to their far-north petrie dish to run the multicultural experiment with. It’s been maybe a couple of decades in the making already and it’s not going well. In fact, it’s going particularly bad for them, the all-too genial Swedes, and they seem much slower to realise what is happening. As with Norway.

    The root problem is leftism and its nihilism. Traditional Sweden has shown it’s an effective guard against cultural nihilism and the barbarians beyond the gates …at least until they all starting showing up at it. They’re so weakened by their collectivist mindset they can’t seem to shake themselves into reality. Nothing happens in a vacuum. Immigration is merely showing up the weaknesses of low birth-rate welfare collectivism.

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  68. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    Waihana,

    And Larzelere has rebutted the Durrant rebut.

    Having observed non-smacked children myself, and I think I told you this last time, in my experience they are little shits. My ten year old is friends with one and that kid really tries it on with me. That was the boy that used to punch my boy when he wouldn’t do what this friend wanted in games when they were 4 & 5 years old. Only thing that slowed down the punching was the boy kept breaking his arms and was incapacitated for a while. Even now, he controls his mother, makes her stand around and wait for him when she comes to pick him up and all she does is talk softly to him.

    That’s one example, I can give a few more that aren’t as extreme, but I’m short on time right now.

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  69. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    Whoops, wrong vowel. Sorry, Weihana.

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  70. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    LabourDoesntWork (182) Says:
    November 18th, 2011 at 12:53 pm

    Your moral nihilism is creeping in here. Are you so far out there that two centres of civilisation and tradition so different to each other merge as one?

    No I didn’t say they merge as one, I said they have a lot in common. Also I am not a moral nihilist. I believe morality has great meaning to one’s life though I think I understand that meaning better, and in a more objective sense, than religious people.


    I can say accurately that pedophiles are liberal – is that meaningful? I think so. Since there is currently an attempt to remove adult-child sex from the American psychiatric diagnostic manual, pedophilia clearly does overlap with liberalism. (Unless every one of those psychiatrists are pedophiles …not mere liberals.)

    Nonsense. Some paedophiles are liberal, some aren’t. It is not tenable to suggest that all the paedophiles that occupy the Catholic Church are liberal. I suspect you are defining paedophilia as an intrinsically liberal act which is nonsense. There is no basis in liberal history to make such a claim and there is no indication that such a viewpoint is developing. I have no idea about any move to reclassify paedophilia in psychiatric manuals and I do not see that it has any relevance to liberalism.

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  71. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    Lucia,

    Thanks for the link I’ll try have a read of it tomorrow.

    With regards your anecdote I can only say that you are creating a false dilemma between parents who smack and parents who do nothing but talk softly and impose no discipline and consequences for bad behaviour. These aren’t the only options. Discipline can be maintained without hitting. And in situations where it can’t, hitting won’t make a difference either.

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  72. Weihana (4,496 comments) says:

    LabourDoesntWork (182) Says:
    November 18th, 2011 at 12:53 pm

    On the issue of multiculturalism it depends what you mean by multiculturalism. If you mean moral nihilism and a lack of any common standards then yes a society is doomed to fail on that basis. But I do not accept that society needs to be “monocultural” in the sense that they share all the same customs and traditions. I think something needs to hold society together and that something should be a general respect for other people and a respect for their welfare and liberty.

    For instance, society does not need to cling onto some antiquated notions of sexuality and embrace anti-homosexual bigotry just for the sake of maintaining a traditional culture. Indeed I would say that western society has benefitted from being more inclusive of different people such as minority cultures and lifestyles. But it is true to say that tolerance has in some respects gone too far. Some on the left have become so tolerant they tolerate intolerance. The Labour Party has even tolerated a Muslim who would not condemn the practice of executing homosexuals in Islamic countries.

    The fundamental mistake is the rejection of any basic standards and embracing a culture, such as Islam, which in large part does not fit with western sensibilities of individual freedoms and rights. But this does not mean we need to revert back to some close minded bigotry of the past. Multiculturalism is fine if one accepts that it doesn’t mean any culture is okay.

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  73. Lucia Maria (2,207 comments) says:

    Weihana,

    Having been a non-smacker until my oldest was 4 and a bit, and being one of those non-smackers who totally believed in it and felt completely morally superior because of it until I had an experience trying to put my son in time-out with him in full on tantrum and then realising a smack would have been less distressing for both of us and probably more effective, I have a lot more knowledge and direct experience with this whole field of discipline than you think.

    Might write a post later.

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  74. adze (1,864 comments) says:

    Weihana

    Just got around to replying to your post, what with KB being down twice in as many days and all. :) I should mention that I am ambivalent about smacking, I would prefer it is never needed as it seems odd (and let’s face it, is unpleasant to witness or perform let alone receive) and I would certainly prefer if there were some skills that could be universally applied regardless of the relative intelligence or social skills of the parents.

    Reason and verbal commands? That’s a last resort? Time-out? No pocket-money? No TV? Children depend on their parents for EVERYTHING. The world is yours to take away from them and this can be done without violence.

    Actually I said – or alluded, anyway – that a smack was a last resort. Reason and verbal commands being the first. All those other strategies you mention I would imagine could be effective depending on the context and personality of the child. Would a non-smacking strategy always be effective? And is smacking never effective? Those are the two key questions for me. But onto the crux of the matter:

    It’s not bad because it’s a negative stimulus, it’s the nature of the act itself. Violence induces a different psychological response than other disincentives

    Can you specify the different psychological response? I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just trying to eliminate in my mind the possibility that “smacking is always wrong/violence” is simply arbitrary or emotional reasoning.

    and also serves as a poor example for good conduct because it fails to teach children that a person’s body is sacrosanct and that no one has a right to violate the body of another person.

    This seems an unusual choice of words for you, if you don’t mind me saying so. I have the feeling that if you had encountered that type of claim (“a person’s body is sacrosanct”) on the other side of a debate you would call it out as a wishy-washy unsupported claim. The truth is we violate people’s body’s all the time, adults especially. We conduct internal body cavity searches for drugs, we lock people up for things they had done in the past. And that’s without a rational investigation as to why a bodily sovereignty holds a special status above other personal freedoms. Once again, I’m not saying you’re wrong necessarily, it’s just an interesting distinction to make.

    The other problem I have is the apparent unspoken assumption (by some) that physical violence is always going to be more damaging than psychological violence. This seems wrong to me, as psychological scars always take longer to heal whether physical violence is involved or not. This is where intent comes in, I would think. If a smack is administered with the goal of humiliating a child, of course they are going to be resentful and possibly suffer long term developmental problems; but so might a child who was teased at school or humiliated by a teacher or sibling, sans any physical violence whatsoever. Likewise a child may become withdrawn or abusive later in life if those strategies you mention are employed in a mean-spirited way. My point is, is a smack always going to have greater deletarious effects?

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  75. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    “Dime,

    It’s like prison in more ways than one.

    Here’s an example: Afghanistan, where women are for children and boys are for pleasure.”

    Sounds a lot like the Catholic church.

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  76. big bruv (13,296 comments) says:

    I just cannot work out why in 2011 so many people want to give their vote (waste their vote) on a party headed up by a man who wants to take NZ back to the dark ages.

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