Labour tensions

August 8th, 2012 at 2:02 pm by David Farrar

I blogged yesterday on the blog post by Duncan Garner reporting what senior Labour MPs had said about .

Garner’s post seems to have sparked off a furious backlash against the Labour MPs thought to be behind it.

Scott Yorke at Imperator Fish blogs:

It’s a bit of a problem, though, when Cunliffe appears more closely ideologically aligned to the party’s activist base than the rest of caucus. How exactly do those bright sparks in caucus with their knives out for Cunliffe think the party’s base will treat such a brazen attack?

And what about those soft Labour voters who might conclude from all of this that their party is a dead loss?

Or maybe being in opposition is such fun that some within Labour’s caucus are keen to do it for another five years.

Irish Bill at The Standard said it is a step too far:

It looks like someone from within Labour’s top team* has decided to have a real nasty go at David Cunliffe via Duncan Garner. … 

I don’t know whether this is an attempt to blame someone else for the recent bad polling (and total strategic failure that’s generated it) or whether it’s an attempt to smear a potential competitor in a lead-up to a leadership challange, but it makes Labour look like a bunch of childish clowns.

My advice? Pull you’re f*cking head in and focus on providing Shearer with some decent strategy and support or we’ll see another three years of National because nobody wants to vote for people who behave like this.

*I think we can all guess who

I have no idea which senior Labour MPs were involved, but commenters at The Standard keep naming two MPs as likely suspects.

Chris Trotter says the caucus rivalries have turned toxic. He backgrounds:

The cynical calculation that persuaded Mr Cunliffe’s enemies to unite behind Mr Shearer in December 2011 has delivered a very paltry harvest. The public was prepared to give Labour’s new boss a fair go at growing into a credible Opposition leader, but their patience isn’t endless. Above all other things, a political leader must be a communicator – and Mr Shearer isn’t. Not surprisingly, the major public opinion polls are all now registering declining levels of public support for both Mr Shearer and his party.

The timing of the attack on Cunliffe just after the bad polls may be coincidence, or may not be.

If the polls continue to register the electorate’s dissatisfaction with the Shearer-led Labour Opposition, Mr Cunliffe’s enemies will do everything within their power to ensure that he is not elected as Mr Shearer’s replacement. They are terrified that the advent of Labour’s new Electoral College will encourage the party’s rank-and-file to not only assert their preference for a new leader, but also, by availing themselves of the new procedures for selecting candidates, for a wholesale sacking of the non-performers and time-servers who long ago ceased to advance Labour’s cause. It is to the cautious Grant Robertson that Mr Shearer’s erstwhile backers will turn, and the price of their support will be that the Opposition’s front-benchers (with the obvious exception of Mr Cunliffe and his allies) stay exactly where they are.

 Mr Robertson would be most unwise to have any part in such a Faustian bargain. Labour must change or it will die. Not quickly and dramatically, but slowly and ignominiously, as the best among its ranks depart, and the worst cling on – for reasons of personal vanity, or from fear of a community they have given no reason to welcome them back – until, at last, the navigation lights of the good shipLabour are swallowed up in “the running straits of history”.
If Labour is to be saved, then its younger MPs must not resist but make common cause with Mr Cunliffe. This is the only alliance that holds out the slightest hope for a renewal of the party’s purpose and the rebirth of its fighting spirit. Mr Robertson and his friends have time on their side: they, unlike the political movement to which they have devoted their lives, can afford to wait.
The Labour Caucus has nothing to lose but Trevor Mallard.
It has an election to win.
 
Cunliffe and Robertson unite!
I feel very very safe in predicting that will never happen.
It will be interesting to see what DC says when he returns from overseas. Also will Shearer condemn the briefing against Cunliffe?
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89 Responses to “Labour tensions”

  1. Alan Wilkinson (1,938 comments) says:

    The Left really do viciously nasty very well.

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  2. Murray (8,803 comments) says:

    Whatever Key is paying Duncan Garner, double it.

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  3. Tautaioleua (324 comments) says:

    Duncan tries too hard.

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  4. Cato (1,095 comments) says:

    Does Chris Trotter have the most pretentious diction of any columnist in this country?

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  5. tvb (4,560 comments) says:

    This is all happening while Cunliffe is away. Labour seem pretty spooked by the polls and they seem convinced the asset sales programme will be a game changer. But the programme was well telegraphed before the election The brown mail being promoted by Maori interests over water may not be as popular as Labour thinks. So an element of frustration is creeping into Labour’s ranks which is spilling into leadership tensions.

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  6. Pete George (23,832 comments) says:

    There’s a certain person that Trotter only mentions briefly but, like almost everyone else, seems to think is toxic.

    But those brave warriors at The Standard, who would viciously attack a butterfly if it flapped it’s right wing, seem afraid. They had to be pushed last night to talk about, it and few would type the name in their comments.

    It’s obvious the Labour caucus and the party are festering messes, but when pushed they suggested putting it off until next year:

    “Either way something has to change. Preferably sooner.”
    “my pike’s sharpened and ready to go”
    “February 2013 caucus leadership vote, people.”

    Caucus may be still hanging on then, but will there be any people left? And…

    “The people on this blog who are part of Labour should grow a spine and make He Who Must Not Be Named defend their actions.”
    “Not a bad idea, but insufficient now, mate.”

    Talk about ducking. How much damage will they take before they tell him to get on his bike, and stay there.

    Meanwhile, I’ve heard there’s ‘much much more’ to come out yet.

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  7. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    DC’s time has come. The caucus must back Cunliffe for the greater good.

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  8. lprent (101 comments) says:

    But those brave warriors at The Standard, who would viciously attack a butterfly if it flapped it’s right wing, seem afraid. They had to be pushed last night to talk about, it and few would type the name in their comments.

    PG: You really are a pathetic dork. Some of us work for a living rather than having the amount of time you seem to be able to expend on blogs. Which is why most of the posts on the site are written the night before or in the morning and scheduled for release during the day.

    There was quite a lot of comment in OpenMike that I saw while doing moderation scans including your dumbarse copyright violation. Irish got around writing a post on it after work. He was in so much of a hurry to do it that he left an uncharacteristic glaring spelling error in it that I have been wincing about whenever it gets quoted (I didn’t see the post until this morning and it’d been quoted extensively so I didn’t fix it).

    Having posts written during the day just depends on who has time to write posts about things in their workday.

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  9. Alan Wilkinson (1,938 comments) says:

    Oh no, Hamnida, you can’t cut short the vicious back-stabbing and venomous bad-mouthing so soon. What ever would the Left do for the next couple of years? While the GFC continues ad nauseum courtesy of the EU ultra-bureau-politicrats what would we do for entertainment? We need some rampant stupidity closer to home to laugh at.

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  10. backster (2,196 comments) says:

    Maybe Comrade Cindy should challenge for the leadership with her subordinate Cunliffe as deputy.

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  11. Pete George (23,832 comments) says:

    lprent – I was referring to the commenters, not authors. The commenters that you let run riot with their bravado stalking and abuse (on some targets only), but who pussyfoot and wimp on something that could affect the survival of their party. They’re as gutless as whoever handed Garner the hatchet while the target os out of the country – is it a Labour thing?

    Why the big deal about ‘copyright’? I don’t usually post full articles but I thought that was quite an important one to quote in full for a strong Labour blog. I don’t see you complaining about any of the frequent extensive quotes in comments.

    Instead of playing the big boy with me why don’t you apply some gumption where it matters? Or maybe it doesn’t matter to you that New Zealand’s main opposition party is becoming a basket case.

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  12. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    No, no – Comrade Cindy can be the deputy. A political dream team.

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  13. BeaB (2,164 comments) says:

    I’d love to see Robertson lined up against Key! What a hoot. Landslide for National.
    What an odious lot they all are.

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  14. david (2,194 comments) says:

    Oh lookie here, (lprent a wee bit earlier) the steaming pile of shit who moderates dissention out of existence over at the Standard has put his head into the blog where his pitiful excuses for his inability to proof read and correct his contributor stable won’t be dumped on with scorn and derision but will be treated with the contempt they deserve. Even here he starts his contribution by dumping a turd onto a commenter who generally (and I must say in spite of great provocation at times) remains polite and committed to debate rather than what passes for discussion when the left attempt it.

    I’m sure that if we are polite to him he will grow as a person and might even qualify to be worthy of a discussion at some future date either that or he will implode out of frustration. I’m easy about which outcome would be preferable.

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  15. Alan Wilkinson (1,938 comments) says:

    Hamnida, that should really polish Labour off. Women won’t vote for a good-looking woman and men won’t vote for an arrogant twit.

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  16. Grendel (1,013 comments) says:

    isn’t it nice that DPF lets Lynn Prentice use language and an attacking style here that would have him blubbing and waving the ban stick within seconds at the standard.

    course at (low) standard, hypocrisy is considered a virtue, probably why they are so good at it.

    PG, there is no reason for Lynn to actually debate, they seem to think if they just attack everyone then they can ignore the fact that their party is going to the dogs. Remember, Deny, Distract and Denigrate are the responses to any argument you dont like.

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  17. Keeping Stock (9,384 comments) says:

    @ Grendel – The Standard should be renamed The Double-Standard, because that’s how Lynn plies his wares. If you dare to criticise his beloved Labour Party, you’re a goner. But Labour-leaning commenters can bully, threaten, and even suggest that people of the right be killed (you’ve probably forgotten THAT comment by Millsy, eh Lynn), and Lynn doesn’t even seem to notice.

    But what’s funnier still, is that Lynn seems to think that no-one else notices his double standards. And by thinking that, he couldn’t be more wrong.

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  18. Wayne91 (142 comments) says:

    Easy tigers – I made a new years resolution to stay away from the Standard and have easily maintained it. Dont bring to much of that hate pit into here!

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  19. Pete George (23,832 comments) says:

    Lyn’s behaviour is a symptom of a wider Labour problem, I don’t know if it comes from frustration in opposition, or if it’s just the diehard Labourites tend to be like that.

    And they seem puzzled why their party has trouble getting support.

    One commenter at The Standard has abused me (never moderated) ever since they labeled me a RWNJ. He went as far as ringing the local TV station trying to get them to ask me an embarrassing question in an interview during the campaign – we had a good laugh about that there.

    That person is the most persistent stalker and one of the most over the main accusers and abusers. They also happen to be a longstanding Labour Party member. Yesterday they asked people to join the party to try and boost support.

    I guess he might attract people who like protected status when they abuse any new people who turn up at The Standard. As they wonder why a million people won’t vote for them. (And yes, I invariably get UF thrown at me when I say things like that, but I don’t whine about lack of support all the time).

    If Labour thinks that grass roots support will save them they’re rooted underground as well as at the top of the tree.

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  20. hmmokrightitis (1,596 comments) says:

    “DC’s time has come. The caucus must back Cunliffe for the greater good.”

    All chanting: “The Greater Good”

    And lyn, you utter hypocrisy is noted – if anyone called you that at the substandard they would be banned in a heartbeat, unless they were of the inner circle. But then your currency is hypocrisy isnt it? Utterly beneath contempt. I wouldnt piss on you if you were on fire.

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  21. lprent (101 comments) says:

    I don’t see you complaining about any of the frequent extensive quotes in comments.

    Bullshit.

    I chop every comment that over-quotes that I see and have banned people for persisting with it. That goes across the whole spectrum from Penny Bright (who eventually learned) to the right. It not only violates copyright, it is a misuse of the web which was designed to hyperlink.

    The only quoted material that I leave if I see it is from newbies or when it appears to only be on our site when I hunt for it in google.

    Personally I feel that I have tolerated your posing and continual whining quite a lot – certainly far more than most of the readers on the site would prefer. Your exaggerated opinion of your writing tends to irritate most people, probably including many here. As you’re aware we don’t even try to moderate abuse, we do moderate just pointless abuse and some forms of simple bigotry. See our policy.

    While you do tend to attract quite a lot of abuse, most of it is rather pointed and usually relates to your habits of seldom debating or answering points that have been raised in responses to the points you write which are usually sanctimonious, shallow, and very short on understanding or detail.

    I rather expect that you are going to view the paragraph as being “abuse” by your definition. But that is probably because you are too much of a git to even try to understand what I’m saying.

    Oh and The Standard is not the Labour party. There will be people here who can advise you about my usual responses to that fatuous statement.

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  22. Grendel (1,013 comments) says:

    Oh look. lynne gets to come here on paid laboir party time and treat people in a way that if anyone but his inner circle (jerk) tried he would have a cry and then ban instantly. good old paid lapblogger hypocrisy.

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  23. Pete George (23,832 comments) says:

    As you’re aware we don’t even try to moderate abuse, we do moderate just pointless abuse and some forms of simple bigotry.

    Sounds very Animal Farm.

    This could imply that abuse and bigotry directed at people who are considered outsiders is not seen as pointless, ie it’s what you want.

    Most of the abuse I get is off topic, unprovoked and repeated. And I’m far from the only one on the receiving end. It’s your blog, run it how you like, but it is seen from the outside for what it is, a friends haven and open season on anyone deemed the enemy.

    And I know The Standard is not the Labour. But like it or not it’s widely associated with Labour. When people get abused by Greens (it happens sometimes) and Manaians (often) it’s Labour that accumulates the bad reputation. As they wonder about lack of support. Maybe if you up the abuse a bit more the polls will pick up.

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  24. queenstfarmer (782 comments) says:

    The Standard should be renamed The Double-Standard, because that’s how Lynn plies his wares

    Unfortunately, that is true. The Standard has some great content and commenters, but unfortunately the authors & mods have a kneejerk habit of banning those who disagree too cogently, or expose an author’s hypocrisy.

    Quite why lprent & co are so thin-skinned is quite a mystery, given there is no shortage of intelligent commenters to shout down dissenters 20 to 1. I now give it a miss.

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  25. joe bloggs (126 comments) says:

    Personally I feel that I have tolerated your posing and continual whining quite a lot …. oh, cry me a river!

    Whatcha going to do Lynn? Ban Pete George from commenting on Kiwiblog?

    Pretty ironic, dontcha think, that you can come across here and bitch, moan and troll away to your hearts content, without some self-indulgent twat moderating your opinions out of existence … no, not so much ironic, just highlights your own double standards.

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  26. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    You Neolibs seem very sensitive today. Perhaps you are annoyed at the prospect of Labour having a new leadership team.

    You Neolibs are OK at running small businesses (although don’t 80% of those fail?) and getting C+ average BComs from Massey, but not so good at reading and politics.

    Face the reality – you have a one seat majority propped up by a disgraced right wing extremist. The Left are simply more intelligent than the Right.

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  27. Reid (16,720 comments) says:

    The Left are simply more intelligent than the Right.

    So how come you’re the poor ones then, Hamnida? How come it’s lefties who are always the social basket cases, the whiny, sad, snivelling, disaffected ones, while meantime conservatives are famous for bwahaha-ing all over the place and constantly having a good time just cause we can? How come that’s the way it really truly is all the time in life, and doesn’t that say something to you about who’s intelligent and whose not?

    Lefties only hallucinate they’re intelligent. This is because they’ve got nothing else but their own arrogance to help them to deal with the fact that by factual, real, comparison with conservative results on a side-by-side basis then in all measures, on all comparisons, lefties come out looking very very poor, tragic, snivelling little creatures. But of course your monstrous egos can’t process the simple fact that all you have to do to win is to become a conservative, you’d rather blame other things, and other people, for your own wretched crapulence in which you insist upon dwelling.

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  28. Say Goodbye to Hollywood (461 comments) says:

    I was just about to respond to Hamnida comment but Reid nailed it, well said. In regard to The Standard, I no longer visit and I’ve never left a comment. It is the classic circle jerk.

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  29. niggly (832 comments) says:

    Easy tigers – I made a new years resolution to stay away from the Standard and have easily maintained it. Dont bring to much of that hate pit into here!

    Well said dude, I haven’t been back to that shithole attack site for many months (and have no intention of ever revisting it, despite the temptation to grab the popcorn, sit back and watch the infighting) :-)

    If Labour thinks that grass roots support will save them they’re rooted underground as well as at the top of the tree.

    PG – Lol, glad to see you always retain your sense of humour :-)

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  30. Peter (1,695 comments) says:

    Lyn demonstrates Labours fundamental problem. They cannot see themselves as others do.

    Long may it last.

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  31. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    I think that a Cunners-Robertson Labour leadership team would be **great** – for the Nats!
    Cunners could scare the voters away with his smarmy, arrogant weaselish nature, while Robertson would almost certainly result in Labour’s vote sinking in South Auckland, in the anti-gay P.I. area.
    Not only that, but there will be the inevitable ructions in the Labour ABC camp (Anyone But Cunliffe).
    I’m sure that the Nats wouldn’t be greatly concerned if these two were to take Labour into the next election.

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  32. tom hunter (5,134 comments) says:

    I was just about to respond to Hamnida …

    You were? Why? It was one of the dumbest, most pathetic attempts at diverting a debate that I’ve ever seen on KB.

    And someone needs to fill the poor soul in on how to appear to be more intelligent: witty comments, put-downs as well reasoned arguments and demonstrated superiority of knowledge are what’s needed (see The DImPost as a halfway decent example). Otherwise it just comes across like a sad, little playground taunt – like Labour.

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  33. Pete George (23,832 comments) says:

    niggly – you gotta laugh at the hypocrisy and futility and blindness to their own reality on the other side, but it’s sad as well to see a blog with much potential being dominated be negatives, it’s like a rest home for bitter and twisted ex activists.

    It’s not all bad, there are some very smart and knowledgable people so there’s plenty to learn if you look beneath the noise. It’s actually been quite a bit better lately due to the mugging mob trying to ‘ignore’ me with smiley faces that only lampooned themselves in yet another way, that’s cleared the way for some decent discussions.

    But if ‘the left’ want to be seen as an attractive option on their best forum they have to deal with the overwhelming climate of ugly.

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  34. Reid (16,720 comments) says:

    Gosh it’s just such a shame tho isn’t it that the magic of an ex-UN Administrator hasn’t simply taken the country by storm in the same way Shearer obviously did with his Liarbore colleagues when he came onto the NZ political scene. I imagine a lot of them are looking at the nation now and stamping their feet petulantly and pursing their mean tight little lips as they furiously try to work out just why it is that their UN hero just doesn’t seem to get any traction with the country at all whereas some NY rich-prick banker (as he is in their minds) seems to have absolutely no trouble.

    Given how envious the rest of the country must be (in their minds) of Key and his wealth, this seems no doubt to them to be a puzzle inside an enigma wrapped in a mystery.

    Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

    It’s vewy vewy sad isn’t the silly old lefties can’t work out what’s wrong?

    Perhaps Hamnida with his massive IQ can come riding to the rescue.

    But if ‘the left’ want to be seen as an attractive option on their best forum they have to deal with the overwhelming climate of ugly.

    Pete clearly you’ve never watched Question Time in your life. There’s no hope I’m afraid. None. It’s vewy sad. It’s like endemic in the Liarbore gene. To get in, you have to be ugly. I mean, look at Hulun. It has to be on the application form, that’s all I can think of.

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  35. thedavincimode (6,890 comments) says:

    Well tensions must indeed be increasing when the mission control operatives come slithering over here to administer some firm discipline to PG off topic and undisguised.

    Good heavens. I’m laughing so hard that I do believe my tits have just fallen off.

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  36. Peter (1,695 comments) says:

    Reid – top post! 6.23

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  37. Viking2 (11,684 comments) says:

    Its going to be alright boys. Helen’s back here to give instructions. :roll:

    Oh oh, oops, she has and look what’s happened. 8O

    Predicted the demise of the Labour Party before the last election. Well on its way. We just need a good right wing party to control the National Socialists and get rid of the Racist party and life might get back to normal. :cool:

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  38. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    What the fuck is hamymoana bleating about?
    Who is this disgraced right wing extremist shes talking about?
    Banksy is not a extremist. Hes a bloody conservative why do you think that acts support collapsed
    And she seems to lump Whinny on the left. Whinnys on the side whinny political spectrum be damned. Peters is as toxic as a pile of industrial sludge. If the left cosy up to the toxic pinstripe they will do even worse than they already are. Not that that would be a bad thing

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  39. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    It is a proven fact Left and Liberal leaning voters are more intelligent than their Neolib counterparts. I have quoted many peer reviewed academic journal articles on this blog in support of my argument.

    The traditional Right are wealthier due to intergenerational money laundering. If inheritance did not exist, the Right would be poorer because they are less intelligent. But under an education fuelled Leftist regime, they would soon catch up. I think you Neolibs call this ‘trickle-down’. In your case, it was based on money and did not work as the Right are greedy. In terms of the Left, it will work through a variety of public policy measures focussed on health and education.

    Key is a junk bond dealer, not a known academic. For every dollar Key made on the junk bond market, someone lost. That’s hardly value added or helping anyone but yourself.

    One day Key will go and I will sit back and watch the Collins/Joyce/Parata blood bath.

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  40. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    Little lynn said something like “quoting is an abuse of the web ’cause it has hyperlinks”, what a wanker.

    I remember Lynn trying to trojan horse my PC a few years ago. What a totalitarian tool.

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  41. niggly (832 comments) says:

    Crickey Hamnida, you really believe that?

    Anywho there’s a number of people here on Kiwiblog, like myself, who don’t mind saying we’ve been Labour leaning in the past but have finally seen the light and switched sides (to National in my case). And I’m not wealthy!

    Crickey, apart from deserting to National, even Labour voters are deserting en-mass to the Greens!

    Hmm, do ya possibly think something might just be a teeny weeny bit wrong with, ya know, Labour? :-)

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  42. Pete George (23,832 comments) says:

    What’s particularly ironic is I post more Labour policy and pro Shearer comments at The Standard than probably all the authors combined, and often get attacked when I do that.

    While they remain stuck in negative campaign mode. Same as the Labour parliamentary strategy, hoping to bring down the Government, expecting to be welcomed into the vacuum by a people just waiting for some they can adore.

    The current intrafighting is a symptom of one of their big problems. They have attack and abuse so ingrained as their modus operandi that when they have internal issues they revert to the only way that seems natural.

    And it’s not just the old guard – they are a big part of the problem, but far from all. They have attracted/recruited more of the same. I see second and first term MPs slotting straight into the same “them and us”practices.

    The Party and The Standard have been very similar, if you aren’t compliant for them you are forever sworn at as persona non grata. Mates can lie and abuse as much as they like, if you compliment their patry you get relentlessly attacked.

    I want Labour to wake up and to repair and rebuild, we badly need more political strength and far more capable politicians (all parties). But they keep getting worse, blind to their repeating mistakes.

    I think it’s a widespread and entrenched mallady, but a key place to start is removing the Mallardy, who is so much a symptom and a cause. I doubt they will start to turn things around until they address that.

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  43. Pete George (23,832 comments) says:

    Hamnida, you are confusing intelligence with being an academic. That is one of the biggest mistakes and arrogances of the left. Particularly noticeable on Dim-Post.

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  44. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    niggly – yes, I believe the Left and more intelligent than the Right. The only reason the Right are wealthier (in financial terms) is because of inheritance from generations long ago. There is a new breed of National voters who are not of this ilk – bogans. Bogans are turning to National because they don’t like the socially liberal side of the Left. You can see the bogan affect in electorates like Otaki, Waitakere, Hamilton East and West.

    Yes, I think there are issues. Labour needs policy that provides a genuine alternative to National. They also need a new leader.

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  45. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Pete George – I know the difference. I am talking IQ, not proportion of academics in relation to political sway.

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  46. Pete George (23,832 comments) says:

    Labour needs policy that provides a genuine alternative to National.

    It’s not intelligent to focus so much on policy. Thinking they can suddenly coming up with a policy that the people will like is one of Labour’s dumbest repeated mistakes. Anyone can spout grand sounding policies. There are three more important things than policies:

    1. Quality of people
    2. Quality of people
    3. Quality of people

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  47. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    It is very hard to argue that National have higher quality people than Labour. That’s just simply untrue.

    Cunliffe or Key?
    Roberston or English?
    Ardern or Bennett?
    Parker or Joyce?
    Shearer or McCully?

    I would agree that the Labour list needs some work.

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  48. Than (514 comments) says:

    Hamnida, are you seriously claiming to have objective evidence that “left and liberal” voters are more intelligent than “Neolib” voters? I have to ask, because that is such an utterly ridiculous claim that my first assumption is you are just trying to goad people.

    On the off chance you are serious, my next question is could you please define “Neolib”? And please be precise, because I will continue to use your definition for the remainder of this thread. Before I can even try and shape a response I have to be speaking the same language you are.

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  49. Pete George (23,832 comments) says:

    Shearer’s speech yesterday has seriously pissed off the activist base of Labour, who were about the only ones outside the parliamentary bubble hanging in there.

    If you look at TS and Red Alert there could be a mutiny under way.

    See the latest from http://thestandard.org.nz/too-far-3/comment-page-2/#comment-504337
    http://blog.labour.org.nz/2012/08/08/moving-forward-and-moving-forward-together/#comments

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  50. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Yes, objective evidence that Neolibs are none too bright.

    Get a reality check, or did you miss the global financial crisis.

    Happy to post the journal links again if that’s what you Neolibs want.

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  51. Reid (16,720 comments) says:

    It is very hard to argue that National have higher quality people than Labour. That’s just simply untrue.
    Cunliffe or Key?
    Roberston or English?
    Ardern or Bennett?
    Parker or Joyce?
    Shearer or McCully?

    Key, English, Bennett, Joyce, Shearer.

    4/5 Hamnida. You lose. What a der. Plus presumably that was your best shot. Your top players in the field. And you still go down 4 times out of 5. And you were the one asking us for our response. Crikey Hamnida, what’s wrong with you? Is that what you call “participating is more important than winning?”

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  52. niggly (832 comments) says:

    Hmm, ok thanks Hamnida (for the reply).

    So would you liken the “intelligent Left” to say, how about, Actors? You know, those people that start off dirt poor thru art or acting school, who are also outspoken on causes (cos they are “intelligent” and know everything of course), even some like Sean Penn or Lucy Lawless and what not, are proud to serve their causes?

    Mind you they seem to be the new generation obtaining almighty wealth, maybe the capitalist wealth wave is scooping all types in life up, check out those middle management and Union leader salaries – over $100K in NZ, let alone these emerging power house country’s (Brazil, India, China, S Korea etc) ;-)

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  53. Than (514 comments) says:

    Hamnida, an intelligent “left and liberal” response would have actually answered the question asked.

    Please define the term “Neolib”, as you are using it. I notice you always capitalise it, so I’m assuming it is a proper noun.

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  54. Peter (1,695 comments) says:

    Hamnida,

    I used to be left. And poor. And rather naieve.

    I grew out of it.

    Rather than boast about my position in life now, I will just say one thing: the right is the path to fun and success.

    I came from a poor family of immigrants, BTW.

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  55. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    Hamnida
    You are simplifying politics into left right its way more complex than that
    The Political Compass
    A good quiz can be found here
    http://www.gotoquiz.com/politics/political-spectrum-quiz.html

    Left and right do not do justice to the political spectrum under MMP

    Griff
    center-right social libertarian.
    Right: 2.07, Libertarian: 3.69

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  56. Komata (1,220 comments) says:

    As a thought for consideration: What are the chances that this ‘infighting’ may be for the benefit of ‘she in New York’? Given the factionalism and extreme loyalties that we know exists within the NZ Labour party, and Clark’s well-documented ability to act as puppet-master, and her inclination for control, this may not be such an unlikely possibility. Setting the scene for her return from the UN perhaps? One wonders.

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  57. Reid (16,720 comments) says:

    Setting the scene for her return from the UN perhaps?

    Personally Komata I don’t think that fits with her psyche. She’s always mentally moved on from things once she’s finished climbing that mountain and I think now her mountain is the UN. She determined a long time ago to become UN S-G and that’s why she got the No.3 spot, to position herself once Ban-ki leaves. Lots of people don’t know this but she is great mates, always has been, with Putin. He is in fact her mentor. That, combined with her Fabian connections with Blair, IMO, put her over the line for her current spot.

    Who she’s lining up for her final push to the S-G summit is anyone’s guess, but she’s highly connected and she always has been. She used NZ as a training ground. That’s all it ever was, to her.

    IMO.

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  58. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    Would be awful if history ever repeated itself.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dag_Hammarskj%C3%B6ld

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  59. Reid (16,720 comments) says:

    The whole world would weep. She was the best Pwime Minister we ever had! What a twagedy!

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  60. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    Dentists/Airbrush artists everywhere would go into deep mourning! :)

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  61. Komata (1,220 comments) says:

    Thanks Reid. Today New Zealand, tomorrow the world. It helps to have friends doesn’t it, ‘cos best friends help each other.

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  62. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    I don’t need to provide a definition – I am sure you Neolibs have faster computers and internet connections than me. Think Roger Douglas 1984, but instead of learning that it doesn’t work and moving on, you Neolibs simply repeat the same mistakes. Sort of like a game of lemmings, with Neolibs being the lemmings and their policies the cliff face. Neolibs think wealth just ‘trickles down’, but unfortunately most rich people are greedy.

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  63. Than (514 comments) says:

    Thank you, that does (indirectly) answer my question.

    You repeatedly use a term without being willing to define it. So it is not worthwhile discussing anything with you, and I will ignore any future posts you make.

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  64. Reid (16,720 comments) says:

    cos best friends help each other.

    I see H2 as Hulun’s Tinky Winky Komata. That helps me keep it all in perspective.

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  65. Falafulu Fisi (2,141 comments) says:

    Haminda, go and stand at that corner over there and wank yourself and after you are satisfied, then come back to debate. Oh! One other thing, wen you come back don’t ever try to talk up yourself as if you’re intelligent or academic because there are lots of PhDs here on Kiwiblog from science and engineering. Your qualification in politics Haminda, is simply equivalent to toilet cleaning. Now you understand that you’re dumb.

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  66. PaulL (5,449 comments) says:

    Hamnida: check the definition of troll whilst you’re looking up the definition of neolib.

    I am aware of some studies in the USA, which on first glance looked to potentially have some bias in them, that found that Republicans were generally less educated, and arguably had lower IQ, than Democrats. I’m not convinced that automatically relates to “left and liberal” v’s “Neocon”. And if it did, I’m not sure that it would have much relation to “Labour” v’s “National.”

    My observation would be that in the US the Democrat supporters tend to be a mix of old-school unionists with little formal education (and my random assertion that if you need to join a union to get good pay, you’re not so smart), academics, public servants, lawyers, and very well-to-do lefty liberal types like say George Soros. The Republicans tend to be a mix of rednecks, reactionaries, business people and middle class type people. I suspect the variation within those groups is well larger than the variation between the groups – so as a predictive measure even within USA it’s pretty useless. Like observing that women have lower IQ than men without noting that 49% of women have higher IQ than 49% of men – so no real predictive value.

    In NZ we don’t have quite that same split. We do have lots of lefty liberals, but they tend to be supporting a range of parties – Greens, Labour, National largely. Business type people tend to be National or ACT, maybe UF or similar. Wrinklies support Winston. Most of those groups have smart people in them, and dumb people in them.

    Last point – you see the GFC as somehow proving that right wing people (“Neocons”) are dumb. Which shows yourself to be lacking in understanding. Questions for you:
    1. George Soros – money trader? Part of the problem?
    2. John Key – zero sum. So nobody derives any value from “junk bond dealing”? (and do you know what he actually did?)
    3. GFC – caused by massive over leverage in the US housing market, right? Caused by which policies?
    4. Lefty leaning govts in Europe. Those countries going well, or not well?

    Sorry, you’re basically coming across as a university student. You might want to try looking at your comments as others see them, and think about whether you have any evidence to support them.

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  67. OneTrack (3,374 comments) says:

    Hanida “I don’t need to provide a definition”

    So it can mean whatever you want it to mean, no more, no less. Please, more training needed at lefty troll school. If you are going to throw around buzz-words, it might be good to have some idea what they mean.

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  68. niggly (832 comments) says:

    Yippee Hamnida’s back!

    I just have one more question about the Intelligent Left, which is, if I may generalise that is, if the Left is so intelligent then how come the Left are usually judgemental, scornful, spiteful, grumpy, and generally just outright nasty and toxic? (I mean, it kind of sounds like the Labour Party as well doesn’t it)!

    And then, if I may continue my generalisation, how come the Right are more tolerant (especially of other viewpoints and dissenting viewpoints), pleasant (even Chris Trotter said he is more welcome when invited to RW events compared to LW events), happier (less likely to bitch and moan) and generous (support’s the Left’s concept of the welfare state)?

    Explain that, why the so called Intelligent Left, are like that as described above? Is that what being Intelligent is about?

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  69. niggly (832 comments) says:

    Would be awful if history ever repeated itself.

    Oh Johnboy, you’re just a nasty bogan, according to Hamnida’s description above! :-)

    I bet your flock have donned black (4-armed) Pink Floyd tee-shirts, and when you are not looking they are doing burnouts on your tractor, with Metallica blasting out the stereo! Ever wondered why your grog cupboard is always bare and the Ram’s have a wide grin, glazed eyes and the ewe’s are also a bit unsteady on their feet and your paddock’s littered with JB bottles? Now you know why! :-)

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  70. Johnboy (17,051 comments) says:

    I’ve always considered myself to be more of a Dag than a Bogan. :)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dag_%28subculture%29

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  71. sparky (235 comments) says:

    @Reid, when you look at the line up of Labour, it makes National’s MP look genious in comparison. Labour have the worst group of Front Bench MP I have ever seen. Get rid of them Labour and start again. Jacinda Ardern, etc are just useless.

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  72. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Paul L.

    1. George Soros – money trader? Part of the problem? – Yes.
    2. John Key – zero sum. So nobody derives any value from “junk bond dealing”? (and do you know what he actually did?) – Junk bond dealing, only winners and losers, no value added to society.
    3. GFC – caused by massive over leverage in the US housing market, right? Caused by which policies? Unregulated banking industry and financial markets fuelled by greed.
    4. Lefty leaning govts in Europe. Those countries going well, or not well? Obviously doing well, just look at the OECD indicators.

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  73. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    It is just insane to think Bennett is more capable than Ardern.

    McCully v Shearer – redneck v UN peace keeper?

    And then a front bench staked with Robertson, Cunliffe and Parker.

    You live in very strange world if you think it’s not 100% in Labour’s favour.

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  74. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    OK, as you Neolibs can’t do simple searches, here they are for you:

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201003/why-liberals-are-more-intelligent-conservatives

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

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  75. Pete George (23,832 comments) says:

    Hamnida, you do realise that there’s many people commenting here with a wide range of views and political leanings?

    I know for the simple folk “neolib” is just another interchangeable term of abuse, but you say you’re intelligent.

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  76. hj (7,181 comments) says:

    Pete George (14,135) Says:
    August 8th, 2012 at 7:40 pm
    Labour needs policy that provides a genuine alternative to National.

    It’s not intelligent to focus so much on policy. Thinking they can suddenly coming up with a policy that the people will like is one of Labour’s dumbest repeated mistakes. Anyone can spout grand sounding policies. There are three more important things than policies:

    1. Quality of people
    …………………………….
    i can’t believe someone would think “good people” is better that good policy; you can’t have one without the other.

    Labours policies are mush: they lump workers with the gentry of welfareism; they fail house prices because they ignore the Savings working Group and Australian Productivity Commissions findings on immigration; they bolster self-interest in the public service; they are designed to get incumbents jobs at the UN.

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  77. tom hunter (5,134 comments) says:

    Sorry, you’re basically coming across as a university student.

    Woah there PaulL! That’s giving waaayy too much credit to a creature that’s not smart enough to rise to the level of troll. Even the dimmest varsity student has learned how to show some degree of reasoning rather than simple, bald-faced assertions. With Hamnida we’re talking the deepest level of dumb – Core-Of-The-Earth dumb.

    In one respect it’s good to see Hamnida and iPrent here on this thread as it allows people to see where the pathologies of the Labour Party have come from, the very dregs of the Labour base.

    But if I were you I’d pick the intelligent lefties to argue with, otherwise you’ll find yourself dragged down to Hamida’s level of dumb and iPrent’s level of nasty. The next thing you know you’ll be standing amidst the crowd of zombies voting Labour.

    And just like zombies, that would be a fate worse than death.

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  78. Griff (8,419 comments) says:

    Neo Liberals
    Are liberals you stupid little lefty troll
    You accuse neoliberals of being dumb yet fail to see the difference between conservative and liberal
    There are dumb conservative leftys in the liebour party just as the national party has dumb conservative rightys

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  79. PaulL (5,449 comments) says:

    1. George Soros – money trader? Part of the problem? – Yes.

    OK, so he’s a lefty. You know that, don’t you.

    2. John Key – zero sum. So nobody derives any value from “junk bond dealing”? (and do you know what he actually did?) – Junk bond dealing, only winners and losers, no value added to society.

    OK, so not a junk bond dealer. And liquidity is something that is very useful in any market. It’s like saying that insurance offers no value to anyone and is a zero sum game. Futures and options are essentially insurance. And there are some people who are prepared to consistently lose money to gain insurance. The other end of that trade consistently gains money but takes risk. That’s the nature of insurance. To deride that as having no value is just showing ignorance.

    3. GFC – caused by massive over leverage in the US housing market, right? Caused by which policies? Unregulated banking industry and financial markets fuelled by greed.

    Nope. Heavily regulated banking industry encouraged by government policy to lend money to people who clearly couldn’t afford it. Regulations that made it zero risk for those same people to borrow money as in many states they could simply mail the keys back to the bank and walk away with nothing more to pay. The biggest actors in the securitisation of mortgages were Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, government backed institutions. Look again, the government (and lefty polices) were a large part of the problem.

    4. Lefty leaning govts in Europe. Those countries going well, or not well? Obviously doing well, just look at the OECD indicators.

    Yup. This one was pretty heroic, even by your standards. You’re not seriously suggesting that Greece is going well at the moment. Spain perhaps? Ireland? Sorry, you need to get out more. Lefty policies, mostly based around borrowing against future generations’ income so as to live beyond our means today, has not worked. The magic pudding has suddenly deflated, and everyone can see what has been going on. Those policies don’t work.

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  80. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    Are you seriously suggesting the U.S or England are better societies than Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland, The Netherlands, France, Germany and Austria?

    You Neolibs are mad. What’s worse, you don’t learn from your mistakes. In any case, New Zealand’s debt is 90% private sector/10% public sector. Overall, it is extremely low by OECD standards. You Neolibs make it sound like there is a crisis, when there isn’t one at all.

    PaulL – shocking to blame to Left and working people for GFC.

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  81. hj (7,181 comments) says:

    Hamnida (140) Says:
    August 9th, 2012 at 10:16 am
    Are you seriously suggesting the U.S or England are better societies than Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland, The Netherlands, France, Germany and Austria?
    ……..
    define better society.

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  82. hj (7,181 comments) says:

    and better society for whom.

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  83. Paulus (2,712 comments) says:

    It has been said that Cunliffe is “on holiday” looking for another job.
    Well he won’t get one with the UN, but NY is a wonderful town, and I believe that he has worked there before, Like John Key.

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  84. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    A more equal society, where children grow up with the same opportunities.

    If you believe the U.S and England are better societies than the ones I quoted at 10:16am, then we are at opposite philosophical extremes. The U.S is exactly what I don’t want for NZ – high crime, high imprisonment, increasing income disparity, high levels of privatised health and education, racism, fringe religious groups influencing policy, etc.

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  85. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    If you Neolibs want to keep wealth amongst the few at the top of the socio economic ladder, just admit it. But don’t pretend that your policies benefit wider society. The last 30 years has taught us they don’t.

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  86. Alan Wilkinson (1,938 comments) says:

    Hamnida, tell that to the Asians. They will tell you you haven’t learnt anything from the last 30 years.

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  87. Hamnida (905 comments) says:

    “Asians” – You do sound like a National voter from 30 years ago.

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  88. Alan Wilkinson (1,938 comments) says:

    Sorry if the word had too many syllables for you, Hamnida. Consider it a reference to China, India, South Korea, Thailand and Malaysia – even Vietnam.

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  89. PaulL (5,449 comments) says:

    Hamnida: what’s the use of a great society if it isn’t financially sustainable – if it’s just basically borrowing against their children’s future standard of living? That’s like saying that my standard of living is better than yours when I’m just putting my whole lifestyle on the mortgage, whilst you’re paying for yours from your income. It’s interesting that I’m spending more, but it doesn’t mean everyone should do it.

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