No mention of affiliation

November 21st, 2012 at 4:00 pm by David Farrar

Stacey Kirk at Stuff reports:

Nowhere in the Strip is safe from ’s “terrifying” bombardment, a New Zealander living in Gaza City says.

Speaking via Skype while military drones could be heard hovering over her house, freelance journalist Julie Webb-Pullman said it was an “absolutely terrifying” place to be. …

She said yesterday a group of people were targeted by an Israeli drone which killed a nine-year-old girl and her brother.

“It’s a crime against humanity what’s occurring, kids are being targeted, [Sunday] alone 31 people were killed – 10 of those children, six were women and five were babies and toddlers,” she said.

“They are not military targets, they are civilians. Israel is committing war crimes plain and simple.”

Now I am not suggesting the views of Ms Webb-Pullman should not be reported, as she is able to report first hand.

But surely the have an obligation not to present her as a disinterested freelance journalist!

She is a long-standing political activist for the communist regime in Cuba, the revolutionary leftist Zapatistas, and the Kia Ora Gaza and NZ Palestine Human Rights Campaign. She disputes that Israel even has a right to exist as a legitimate state, and people can judge this statement for themselves:

New Zealand’s Prime Minister might have his own personal reasons for choosing to forget such behaviour and welcome a Zionist embassy in New Zealand

This is short-hand for those Jews stick together.

Now again I am not in any way suggesting no one should be reporting what Webb-Pullman says. What I am saying is that merely describing her as a freelance journalist, and the implication of neutrality is grossly misleading and does readers a disservice.

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106 Responses to “No mention of affiliation”

  1. dime (9,663 comments) says:

    hope she gets taken out. nut job.

    [DPF: 50 demerits]

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  2. kowtow (7,943 comments) says:

    Andrew Bolt highlights the same issue with fairfax Ruth Pollard on the “spy” murder story,the one where a guy gets dragged behind a motorbike by gun wielding civilians. Well the media would count these animals as civilians if the Israelis whacked ‘em.

    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/guilty_anyway_suggests_fairfax_reporter/

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  3. unaha-closp (1,140 comments) says:

    How come whale oil had a post up, that quoted this post before 4 pm?

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2012/11/hamas-terror-boss-disguises-himself-as-media/

    [DPF: I set the date wrong and it appeared early]

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  4. Elaycee (4,332 comments) says:

    She is a long-standing political activist for the communist regime in Cuba, the revolutionary leftist Zapatistas, and the Kia Ora Gaza and NZ Palestine Human Rights Campaign. She disputes that Israel even has a right to exist as a legitimate state…

    Given these ‘credentials’ it won’t be long before resident Hamas propagandist Luc starts citing the literary efforts of Ms. Webb-Pullman as some form of independent voice reporting from within Gaza.

    Goebbels would be proud…..

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  5. snowy (107 comments) says:

    Bit harsh on Dime there DPF

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  6. montikaza (2 comments) says:

    Funny, there’s little mention why the Israelis are attacking Gaza. If someone launches rockets at your country, what is one meant to do? Sit on the ground and cry? Hamas only understands death. It’s their belief to annihilate Israel’s existence. And they’re quite happy to have innocent people die for their beliefs.

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  7. Ross Miller (1,681 comments) says:

    A shoddy journo too lazy to do any digging in respect of her ‘source’ and any attempt to provide balance goes flying out the window … whats new?

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  8. dime (9,663 comments) says:

    50? ouch! no love. best i dont follow up with an LOL if something happens.

    im sorry DPF, but people like her make me sick to my stomach. god forbid what state our country would be in if she had her way!

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  9. Scott (1,736 comments) says:

    Totally agree with your post DPF. I would add that the media was absolutely not interested in this conflict when Gaza was firing missiles at Israel. Like not a single story about it in the mainstream media. Nothing about Israelis sitting in terror in air raid shelters. No 1st person accounts about the damage done by hundreds of rockets fired without provocation into Israel.

    Now that Israel is finally defending itself what do we find? Intense media interest, 1st person accounts of woman and children dying and very little mention of who started the conflict. Apparently the Muslim radicals who are firing the missiles deliberately surround themselves with civilians as human shields. So the civilian casualties are the intended consequence of the actions of the radicals in Gaza. How about reporting that?

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  10. unaha-closp (1,140 comments) says:

    So the VRWCNZ isn’t vetting/conspiring on themed posts prior to publication. Oh well

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  11. Griff (6,995 comments) says:

    infidels

    http://www.bobdylan.com/us/songs/neighborhood-bully

    sorry to those who hate long poems

    Well, the neighborhood bully, he’s just one man
    His enemies say he’s on their land
    They got him outnumbered about a million to one
    He got no place to escape to, no place to run
    He’s the neighborhood bully

    The neighborhood bully just lives to survive
    He’s criticized and condemned for being alive
    He’s not supposed to fight back, he’s supposed to have thick skin
    He’s supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in
    He’s the neighborhood bully

    The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land
    He’s wandered the earth an exiled man
    Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn
    He’s always on trial for just being born
    He’s the neighborhood bully

    Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized
    Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
    Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad
    The bombs were meant for him. He was supposed to feel bad
    He’s the neighborhood bully

    Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
    That he’ll live by the rules that the world makes for him
    ’Cause there’s a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
    And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac
    He’s the neighborhood bully

    He got no allies to really speak of
    What he gets he must pay for, he don’t get it out of love
    He buys obsolete weapons and he won’t be denied
    But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side
    He’s the neighborhood bully

    Well, he’s surrounded by pacifists who all want peace
    They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease
    Now, they wouldn’t hurt a fly. To hurt one they would weep
    They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep
    He’s the neighborhood bully

    Every empire that’s enslaved him is gone
    Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon
    He’s made a garden of paradise in the desert sand
    In bed with nobody, under no one’s command
    He’s the neighborhood bully

    Now his holiest books have been trampled upon
    No contract he signed was worth what it was written on
    He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth
    Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health
    He’s the neighborhood bully

    What’s anybody indebted to him for?
    Nothin’, they say. He just likes to cause war
    Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed
    They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed
    He’s the neighborhood bully

    What has he done to wear so many scars?
    Does he change the course of rivers? Does he pollute the moon and stars?
    Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill
    Running out the clock, time standing still
    Neighborhood bully
    Copyright © 1983 by Special Rider Music
    Infidels
    Buy Track $0.99
    Downloads

    Read more: http://www.bobdylan.com/us/songs/neighborhood-bully#ixzz2CpDdzO29

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  12. DJP6-25 (1,310 comments) says:

    The usual leftist double standard operation in the antique media then. No surprise, that.

    cheers

    David Prosser

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  13. Keeping Stock (10,177 comments) says:

    Shades of the Kate Sutton housing beat-up. Less-than-honest MSM; quelle surprise!

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  14. scrubone (3,082 comments) says:

    Griff: exactly.

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  15. Longknives (4,686 comments) says:

    Dime- The worst thing that could happen is that she got taken out. She would then become a martyr like that ‘Peace Activist’ ( Hamas supporter) who got killed by the bulldozer.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie

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  16. Longknives (4,686 comments) says:

    Having said that- If Dime gets stood down for his actions I am going to start a ‘Free Dime’ campaign. I fear that without Kiwiblog as an outlet he may well fall into a life of sordid debauchery….

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  17. Chicken Little (793 comments) says:

    I thought Dime was asking if anyone was going to take her out to dinner with a peanut slab for dessert.

    I will support you in your campaign longknives.

    I call for justice for Dime

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  18. The Scorned (719 comments) says:

    Well said Dime….and fuck you DPF…..fag

    [DPF: 20 demerits]

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  19. Steve Wrathall (260 comments) says:

    Wow. An opinion holder wheeled out without any mention of their political track record or agenda. That’s never happen before.

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  20. RRM (9,661 comments) says:

    *Editor’s note:

    The number of dead children referred to in this article may be purely a matter of political opinion.

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  21. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    montikaza is right!

    It is **Hamas** who has the blood of everyone who dies on their hands.
    If Hamas had not had the STUPID idea to do these rocket salvoes, then **nothing** would have happened.

    I don’t know if it is just me, but I get a sense that people in the West may – just may – be starting to wake up and see that the Fakestinians have been DUPING them all these years. It is the terror-loving, child-abusing, suicide-bombing **Fakestinians** who are the bad guys – not Israel.

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  22. Yoza (1,675 comments) says:

    Yeah, Israel needs to start concentrating Palestinians in special camps where they can learn the value of work, and how that work can set them free. Then for the infirm, the weak and the elderly Palestinians they could build special chambers where they could be quietly gassed.

    Noam Chomsky: “It is a poor tribute to the memories of the victims of The Holocaust to adopt the central doctrine of their murderers.”

    At least most of those posting on Kiwiblog are way too ignorant to understand the ugly racist precedent they continue to parrot.

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  23. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Noam Chomsky can fuck off Yoza, if there was ever an American who deserved a blindfold and a short drop as a traitor to his country, its that pathetic old prick

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  24. Bevan (3,965 comments) says:

    Yoza, your attempt at an analogy sux major arse. 1st the Jews in Germany weren’t trying to slaughter any Germans, nor were they calling for the destruction of the Germanic state. 2nd, your quoting a die hard Palestinian supporter who wears his blinkers proudly. 3rd, no Palestinian has been sent to any Concentration camp nor is Gaza similar to one – if it was they wouldn’t have any rockets to fire at Israeli civilians.

    Al that considering, I must endorse Pauleastbay’s fuck off comment.

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  25. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2235635/Gaza-conflict-Egyptian-president-says-peace-Gaza-imminent-predicts-lasting-ceasefire-begin-tomorrow.html

    Check this out, those lovely Gazians, shooting a man and then dragging his body through the streets behind a motorcycle. a lovely bunch.

    Israel should just turn the place into a parking lot, fuck world opinion , just do it, and then fuck anyone who trys to do anything about it and keep doing it until these pieces of shit get the message, – they are animals and deserve to be treated as an unruly animal, humanely put down.

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  26. Steve (North Shore) (4,522 comments) says:

    I will bat for dime. I agree with his statement saying Ms Webb-Pullman is a nut job.

    Hard call DPF but it is your blog. “Free Dime”

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  27. jakejakejake (145 comments) says:

    Some real kind words here haha…

    Pauleasybay sounds like he would have been dropping the gas into the “showers” in Auschwitz while rubbing one out.

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  28. Yoza (1,675 comments) says:

    Yes, I see ethnic cleansing is only that when officially endorsed by the establishment in the feeble minds of those posting here. Noam Chomsky is hated by the US media precisely because he exposes the official version of events for the farce they so often are, resplendent with exhaustive footnotes which are, more often than not, sourced from the public record.

    Calling Chomsky names exposes you for the weak minded fool you truly are, Paul. Please, enlighten me with your evidence of Chomsky’s ‘traitorous’ activities.

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  29. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4655806/Beeb-war-boob.html

    Imagine the media not being truthful, just sickening, idiots don’t have basic geography

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  30. bhudson (4,736 comments) says:

    Noam Chomsky is hated by the US media precisely because he exposes the official version of events for the farce they so often are, resplendent with exhaustive footnotes which are, more often than not, sourced from the public record.

    Actually in the Chomsky I forced myself to read he had quite a habit, in his footnotes, of using his own material as his sources – I guess he favours that sort of independent source…

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  31. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    PEB
    Any chance of reconsidering your call for genocide above?

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  32. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Nope,

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  33. Yoza (1,675 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay (2,863) Says: at 7:04 pm “Israel should just turn the place into a parking lot, fuck world opinion , just do it, and then fuck anyone who trys to do anything about it and keep doing it until these pieces of shit get the message, – they are animals and deserve to be treated as an unruly animal, humanely put down.”

    Wow! How stupid can one person be (I know ‘very’, obviously). I have no doubt your call for the extermination of the Palestinians in Gaza would be as welcome in as many parts of Israel as calls for the extermination of the Jews were welcome in many parts of Nazi Germany.

    You truly are a world class fool.

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  34. mavxp (494 comments) says:

    She was interviewed on TV3′s firstline this morning. Rachel Smalley struggled to get in the comment about Israel defending itself from Rockets – a rather weak attempt at balance when she at last realised what type of person she was interviewing: A shrill far left fanatic.

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  35. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    PEB
    Putting yourself in the Redbaiter class. Just saying.

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  36. TimG_Oz (924 comments) says:

    Chill out dudes.

    Here’s some balance. Some actual facts to counter the BS of Ms Webb-Pullman. These were current as of Monday morning NZ Time:

    The Humanitarian Situation in Gaza
    November 18, 2012

    Crossings
    1. Israel is making a major effort to maintain the fabric of civilian life in Gaza, despite the situation of current hostilities. The IDF opened today the Kerem Shalom crossing for movement of food, medicine and other goods from Israel despite the ongoing rocket attacks on the Israeli population and previous attacks on the crossing.

    2. The Erez crossing was open today, as on every other day of Operation Pillar of Defense. Seventy foreign journalists entered Gaza today by way of Erez. Twenty Gazans entered Israel for medical treatment, and twenty-three foreign nationals, representing NGOs who until now had been prevented by Hamas from leaving the Gaza Strip, departed.

    Food and Housing Security
    1. Gaza is not experiencing food scarcity. Israel is not blocking entrance of goods into Gaza, except for weaponry and dual-use materials. Construction materials can be imported to Gaza under the supervision of international organizations.

    2. Israel is continuing the yearly supply of five million cubic meters (1,320,860,250 gallons) of water to Gaza, despite the rocket attacks on Israeli cities and towns.

    3. UNRWA (UN Relief and Works Agency) reports (17.11.12) that despite some displacement of families due to hostilities, “there hasn’t been any need to provide emergency humanitarian assistance or to open UNRWA facilities as emergency shelters.”

    Medical Care
    1. Between January – October 2012, approximately 14,500 patients and their accompanying chaperones entered Israel from Gaza for medical treatment. 99% of the medical requests by Palestinian residents of Gaza were approved by Israel.

    2. The World Health Organization has reported a ten-day slowdown in referral process for Gaza patients due to disagreements between the Ramallah and Gaza Health Ministries.

    3. Gaza hospitals are currently operating at 80% capacity (17.11), slightly higher than routine periods.

    4. Israel is not blocking entrance of medical supplies into Gaza. Requests submitted by the international community are answered within 24-72 hours of submission, almost always positively, and Israel has opened the Kerem Shalom passage for transit of medical materials and other goods, despite the danger to personnel at the crossing.

    5. At present, there is a shortage of some medical supplies in Gaza due to disagreements between Hamas and the PA, and budgetary difficulties of the Palestinian Authority.

    6. UNRWA reports that all of its 21 health centers are open and functioning. Of UNRWA’s 12,000 staff members in Gaza, only one person has sustained injuries in the hostilities, and those are minor.

    Electricity
    1. Israel is supplying 125 megawatts of electricity to the Gaza Strip from the power station in Ashkelon despite the rocket attacks on Israel’s population, and on Ashkelon itself.

    2. Gaza continues to suffer from power outages due to a deliberate policy of Hamas, which opposes import of fuel from Israel. As a result, the Gaza power station is operating at 20% capacity.

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  37. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    No fool Yoza, clowns like you being professional contrarians just show support for the arseholes that would do that to a body.

    I sincerely hope that the Israeli’s have it organised that the individuals that incited these deaths and the crowds of baying idiots are no longer with us by Friday. The dickheads pulling the body around are nothings , but the professional agitators who organize the rioting and the like need to be got rid of

    If Hamas is crushed and I mean annihilated the normal Palestinian has some chance at a normal life, but while these arseholes hold all the power over them they have no chance.

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  38. Longknives (4,686 comments) says:

    http://gm2j.co/2012/03/29/new-zealand-journalist-julie-webb-pullman-lies-about-hamas-terrorist-for-global-march-to-jerusalem-cause/

    Seems this person has form for telling porkies….

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  39. ross69 (3,652 comments) says:

    Yeah how absurd that a journalist should be allowed to criticise Israel for murdering kids. She must be anti-semitic. Burn her at the stake.

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  40. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    Agreed, Pauleastbay.

    And meanwhile – what the **FUCK** have UNRWA – the largest body in the UN – been doing for the last 60+ years???

    They could have busied themselves with stopping Hamas from broadcasting the awful “Pioneers of Tomorrow” children’s brainwashing TV program (which encourages them to become suicide-bombers). But no – that program beams out unhindered. They could have busied themselves destroying the abysmal school textbooks in Gaza and the West Bank which show no sign of Israel, and then replacing them with **decent** REAL non-political textbooks. Again, no – the textbooks are untouched.

    What a complete bloody waste of time UNRWA is. They are part of the **problem** – not part of the solution.

    Oh, and I see our “pet troll” Yoza mentions “ethnic cleansing” – thanks for that, Yoza.
    What is the stated aim of Hamas? To DESTROY Israel.
    What is **that**, if not “ethnic cleansing”, Yoza?
    Or is “ethnic cleansing” only “OK” when done by Fakestinians?

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  41. Bazar (38 comments) says:

    Keep the demerits against dime, let it be a lesson learnt.

    Arguing against someone at a personal level, rather then the issues they raise, makes you as petty as the posters that live in the squalid known as thestandard.

    Publicly wishing for an individual to be murdered because of their opinions? That lowers the bar far further.

    As someone who tries to see both points of the argument, its always been nice to see that the quality of posts at KB being considerably higher calibre, and the fact that it’s done with with minimal moderation is impressive. (compared to the heavy, biased, and unfair moderation at thestandard)

    If it ever drops to the point where comments like dime’s are both common and acceptable, i’ll go from respecting this site, and what dpf’s writes, and consider it as trashy as thestandard.
    I won’t be the only one either.

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  42. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    TimG_Oz (758) Says:

    November 21st, 2012 at 7:30 pm

    Ah, thanks for that reassurance, Tim.

    It’s nice to know that although Israel will blindly kill, it will do so with with kindness!

    And serve up BBQ baby for desert…

    Meanwhile:

    http://www.theheadlines.org/12/19-11-12.shtml

    tells a different story.

    as does…

    http://www.jonathan-cook.net/2012-10-24/israels-formula-for-a-starvation-diet/

    All carefully calculated in time honoured oppressor fashion.

    While in this interview the UN Speccial Rapporteur for Palestine drops the G-word AND Israel’s rulers demonstrate absolute racism (the only human life considered worthy of international protection is western life) AND exposes itself to war crimes charges by its own admission

    http://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/19/un_special_rapporteur_calls_for_global

    And going by latest events, this latest murderous assault by Israel is in serious danger of becoming known as Bibi’s Booby!

    He is clearly floundering, as he does every time he tries to make history.

    However, that’s no consolation to the victims as his successor is guaranteed to be cut from the same cloth.

    But keep up the good work Tim – could be a special star coming your way from your superiors!

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  43. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    PEB
    I shouldn’t make the mistake of imagining that Hamas are too much different from the ‘ordinary’ Palestinians. To a certain extent, Hamas are representative of a very large section of the population who saw that Arafat’s surrender in the 1990s brought no discernible benefits. In Gaza, Hama ARE the Palestinians, in the same way that Likud and Labour ARE the Israelis.

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  44. nasska (10,908 comments) says:

    ….”And serve up BBQ baby for desert…”…..

    Could you get more pathetic?

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  45. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    mm

    do bugger off with..to a certain extent…

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  46. TimG_Oz (924 comments) says:

    Holy smoke, Luc, you don’t believe the UNRWA? The UN organisation SOLELY for the Palestinian refugees?

    There must be something wrong when you disagree with them.

    BTW – what was your take on the “motorbike corpses”?

    I heard an unconfirmed report that one of them was actually murdered for owning pornography. Apparently some wanker emailed him some home made nudist porn on Saturday night to make him feel good.

    They forgot that its illegal in Gaza

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  47. Reid (16,110 comments) says:

    Is it possible there is Israeli propaganda as well as Palestinian?

    Or does that just not like, happen?

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  48. Pauleastbay (5,035 comments) says:

    Apparently some wanker emailed him some home made nudist porn on Saturday night to make him feel good. They forgot that its illegal in Gaza

    Well, thats a comment will not be bettered for many a day, golden.

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  49. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Luckily, we all saw the funny side…

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  50. Nostalgia-NZ (5,043 comments) says:

    Luckier than people getting bombed and missiled from every direction.

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  51. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Thanks for the opening to quote UNRWA. Tim.

    From its website:

    UNRWA is a United Nations agency established by the General Assembly in 1949 and is mandated to provide assistance and protection to a population of some 5 million registered Palestine refugees. Its mission is to help Palestine refugees in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, West Bank and the Gaza Strip to achieve their full potential in human development, pending a just solution to their plight. UNRWA’s services encompass education, health care, relief and social services, camp infrastructure and improvement, microfinance and emergency assistance.

    Financial support to UNRWA has not kept pace with an increased demand for services caused by growing numbers of registered refugees, expanding need, and deepening poverty. As a result, the Agency’s General Fund, supporting UNRWA’s core activities and 97 per cent reliant on voluntary contributions, has begun each year with a large projected deficit. Currently the budget deficit stands at USD 21 million.

    In short, without UNRWA supplies Palestinians humanitarian situation would be even worse!

    I suggest readers go to the website and read the facts on the ground as they are, rather than Tim’s hasbaric fantasy:

    http://www.unrwa.org/

    I wonder how long before we find out from Tim that they are just a bunch anti-semite, Israeli hating lying propagandists!

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  52. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Tim

    re the motorbike diaries

    My memory of this site when similar was done to Gaddafi was one of exultation, blood lust fulfilled, and I didn’t herar any criticism of the perpetrators.

    My take is that this is what happens when a people is brutalised almost beyond imagination. Exactly the same situation as when Jews brutalised almost beyond imagination arrived in Palestine with the express purpose of killing and dispossessing the native Arab population.

    Tim, tell your bosses to dismantle the blockade and work through a process that will enable peaceful cooperation. Ongoing conflict makes Israel less, not more secure.

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  53. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    hope she gets taken out. nut job.

    [DPF: 50 demerits]

    So crying for the wholesale deaths of thousand/millions of Muslims/Israelis attracts no demerits.

    But to imply that even a single left wing shit stirring journalist should get the same as she condones on others (thousands of rocket attacks) , 50 demerits !

    DPF, your better than that.

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  54. Warren Murray (293 comments) says:

    I disagree with the notion that free lance implies neutrality. As for the comment that the PM is biased because he has jewish heritage, so what? The same claim could be levelled at you David, neither of you has denied your heritage. Im not bothered either way, as Ive read postings by others, the number of people who dont have a side is probably equal to the number of people who don’t care.

    I think both sides pull what ever tricks and create whatever propaganda they can to gather international sympathy and support. Israel funds many films about the holocaust and other persecutions, doesnt mean they didnt happen, but does tend to help them in the current era when they perpetually remind the world they are surrounded by enemies. Kind of helps to gloss over the size of the IDF and the extent of its reach, capacity, capability etc. It is fortunate that Israel manages to intercept most of the missiles from Gaza.

    I’m fairly cynical of the causes for this latest flare up in what seems a never ending cycle of violence. Israel has maintained a blockade on Gaza for years, intercepting the boats that led to some loss of life. But the missiles still got through. It might help Iran and Syria to stoke the embers a bit too, try to divert attention to the common enemy, etc. so I think there are political drivers at play which has led to Hamas launching all these rockets with such scant success and they must have known there would be a terrible price inflicted by Israel. On the other side, two months out from an election, it would be good domestic politics for Netenyahu to have a conflict to appear tough, etc. when you have a very successful anti missile shield and unlimited firepower at your disposal, there isnt much risk in starting a small war.

    I really dont think Israel wants peace. Given that Gaza is a massive ghetto, it seems Israel has learned well from its past history of persecution how to inflict similar miseries on the Palestinians. Israel would be a lot better off if there were no Palestinians, but to achieve that it would need mass deportments or exterminations. Thats not possible, so the best strategy seems containment in the most miserable conditions possible.

    Israel either doesn’t want peace or cant make the compromises necessary to achieve it. it does the opposite by continuing to take more land from the Palestinians in the West bank, making a viable state impossible.

    If the Palestinian Authority and Hamas surrendered unconditionally, what would Israel do? It cant make the Palestinians citizens of an new israeli state that incorporates all of British mandated Palestine, they would outnumber the jews. But nor can it make them some other second class citizen, that would be apartheid. So containment is the default solution. But its not a solution because it isnt peace.

    One closing remark (for Obama), if Israel is allowed to do whatever it believes it must in self defence, shouldn’t the same apply to the Palestinians? Who decides which side is acting in legitimate self defence?

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  55. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Pauleastbay (2,868) Says:
    November 21st, 2012 at 6:52 pm
    Noam Chomsky can fuck off Yoza, if there was ever an American who deserved a blindfold and a short drop as a traitor to his country, its that pathetic old prick

    Gotta be good for a solid 50 demerits :)

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  56. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    ‘Jews brutalised almost beyond imagination arrived in Palestine with the express purpose of killing and dispossessing the native Arab population.’

    You are getting a bit carried away there, Luc.

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  57. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Yes, you are right, mm.

    Not the time or place.

    Anyway, here is Julie’s website|

    http://todayingaza.wordpress.com/

    Today…

    http://todayingaza.wordpress.com/2012/11/20/how-gaza-children-experience-international-day-of-the-child/

    Some good stuff there for the likes of PEB to ebjoy!

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  58. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Luc, nice propaganda site. Shall we all post links to extremist sites to support our views, or shall we just stick to facts?

    What is it with you freaks and the constant references to dead kids ? Do you really think that lends weight to your argument ?.

    I do not care how many kids die. Its not relevant at all to the issue. Read some history idiot. Every major war has had massive civilian casualties. They have usually been targets (Dresden/London). The only unusual thing here is that the Israelis have not targeted civilians, unlike your sand nigger mates in Gaza.

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  59. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    I’d be interested in Kiwibloggers’ recommendations for a good introductory history to the Middle East conflicts.

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  60. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Not Kea’s recommendations, obviously and nothing from Luc that backs up his last comment.

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  61. pq (728 comments) says:

    so much pain farrar ,
    and yet your blog relevance comes through
    .we go to Farrar to get some basic inrelligence

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  62. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Oh you want “revisionist history” mikenmild. That is real easy to find.

    ****Spoiler Alert*****

    The White Man did it !

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  63. Yoza (1,675 comments) says:

    “I’d be interested in Kiwibloggers’ recommendations for a good introductory history to the Middle East conflicts.”

    Norman Finkelstein “Beyond Chutzpah”

    Noam Chomsky “The Fateful Triangle”

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  64. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    More from UNRWA – many thanks to Tim for reminding me about this invaluable source of facts on the ground -

    Gaza: facts and figures
    1.2 million refugees
    8 refugee camps
    12,000 staff
    245 schools for 225,000 students
    21 health centres
    12 food distribution centres for more than 800,000 refugees
    Living under a tightened land and sea blockade since 2007
    Shattered local economy

    So fully half on Gaza’s population of 1.6 million is dependent on UNRWA food aid for daily survival.

    Thanks Tim, on their behalf, for your kind consideration in promulgating absolute falsehoods.

    And half of Gaza’s population is under the age of 15.

    Not only shooting fish in a barrel, but underage fish at that!

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  65. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    1.2 million refugees
    8 refugee camps
    12,000 staff
    245 schools for 225,000 students
    21 health centres
    12 food distribution centres for more than 800,000 refugees
    Living under a tightened land and sea blockade since 2007
    Shattered local economy

    Sounds like parts of Auckland, but the folks there don’t have money to spend on rockets.

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  66. big bruv (13,558 comments) says:

    Release Dime!…

    Think of the punishment that numerous hookers will be subject to if you give Dime spare time DPF….have some heart.

    Oh…and as for Gaza, I am with PEB, turn the fucking place into a car park.

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  67. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Yoza you have to be kidding giving Noam Chomsky as a credible source. As well as being an arrogant, and terribly boring idiot, he has acted as an apologist for some of the most murderous regimes in recent history.

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  68. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Check out the reading list on my blog, mm.

    I especially recommend Tom Segev, “One Palestine, Complete.” You can’t read it in a night.

    Like I said, now is not the time for that comment you refer to and I shouldn’t have included it.

    I’ve been doing well except for that.

    But I would suggest you start looking into the history of Zionism, which is replete with an expectation that Palestine would be cleansed of the native population. If you want chapter and verse you will have to wait till I get a bit more time. And the research will be from an academic-style tome, not a blog.

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  69. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Shock me Kea, demonstrate that you have read an actual book about middle eastern history.

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  70. Yoza (1,675 comments) says:

    “Yoza you have to be kidding giving Noam Chomsky as a credible source. …he has acted as an apologist for some of the most murderous regimes in recent history.” Bullshit. Please provide a quote and a link to back this up.

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  71. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Kea

    Please give an example of that statement. In Chomsky’s writings, not some nutty right wing fanatic passing on lies from another right wing fanatic. after all, that’s how all the right wingers in the US didn’t know they were always going to lose the US election – they stayed in their own deluded bubble.

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  72. Reid (16,110 comments) says:

    How come the No Man Is An Island humanitarian principle isn’t applied by some, to the Palestinians, at times like these?

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  73. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Like I said, now is not the time for that comment you refer to and I shouldn’t have included it.

    I’ve been doing well except for that.

    When is “the time for that comment” ?

    Doing well at what?

    Maybe if you told the truth you would not need to worry about these things. Even as someone who opposes the establishment of the modern Israeli state, I can see you are full of shit and will say anything to support your poorly considered ideas.

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  74. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Messrs Luc, MM, Yoza, there is little need to prove myself, or what I say, to anyone. Every person reading this can Google search themselves. Your attempts to support your twisted logic, with links to extremist sites, fools no one of any intelligence.

    You may be impressed with that pompous and discredited old fool Chomsky, but many of us are not.

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  75. valeriusterminus (247 comments) says:

    And we still suffer Ben Wedeman, an “unaffiliated reporter”, for CNN, in our National media…
    How about Israel just honours it’s first principles obligations under GA181 ? – see where we can go from there.

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  76. V (694 comments) says:

    On the subject of Chomsky, its a pity they can’t airdrop him in there on a pallet with a microphone, speakers and power supply, he would quickly bore both sides into submission with his nuance.

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  77. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    V, that sort of cruel and unusual punishment would see you charged with war crimes. Chomsky is so impressed with himself that he appears oblivious to how boring and irrelevant he sounds.

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  78. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    after all, that’s how all the right wingers in the US didn’t know they were always going to lose the US election – they stayed in their own deluded bubble.

    Just like the left wingers predicting Bush would lose ? (He never did)

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  79. cha (3,856 comments) says:

    calling for the destruction

    http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Op-EdContributors/Article.aspx?id=292466

    We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.

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  80. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Good quote cha. That is indeed what they should have done years ago. Either they flatten it, or Hamas stops the rockets, which every comes first.

    You would do no less if the rockets were blowing your family into steaming lumps of torn meat.

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  81. valeriusterminus (247 comments) says:

    Hey Kea – is that Palestinian or Israeli families ? – do the numbers!
    What comes first is GA181.

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  82. V (694 comments) says:

    While we’re doing cut&paste, why don’t we provide the whole article so it can be read in context.


    Anyone who thinks Hamas is going to beg for a cease-fire, that Operation Pillar of Defense will draw to a close and quiet will reign in the South because we hit targets in the Gaza Strip, needs to think again.

    With the elimination of a murderous terrorist and the destruction of Hamas’s long-range missile stockpile, the operation was off to an auspicious start, but what now? This must not be allowed to end as did Operation Cast Lead: We bomb them, they fire missiles at us, and then a cease-fire, followed by “showers” – namely sporadic missile fire and isolated incidents along the fence. Life under such a rain of death is no life at all, and we cannot allow ourselves to become resigned to it.

    A strong opening isn’t enough, you also have to know how to finish – and finish decisively. If it isn’t clear whether the ball crossed the goal-line or not, the goal isn’t decisive. The ball needs to hit the net, visible to all. What does a decisive victory sound like? A Tarzan-like cry that lets the entire jungle know in no uncertain terms just who won, and just who was defeated.

    To accomplish this, you need to achieve what the other side can’t bear, can’t live with, and our initial bombing campaign isn’t it.

    THE DESIRE to prevent harm to innocent civilians in Gaza will ultimately lead to harming the truly innocent: the residents of southern Israel. The residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas. The Gazans aren’t hostages; they chose this freely, and must live with the consequences.

    The Gaza Strip functions as a state – it has a government and conducts foreign relations, there are schools, medical facilities, there are armed forces and all the other trappings of statehood. We have no territorial conflict with “Gaza State,” and it is not under Israeli siege – it shares a border with Egypt. Despite this, it fires on our citizens without restraint.

    Why do our citizens have to live with rocket fire from Gaza while we fight with our hands tied? Why are the citizens of Gaza immune? If the Syrians were to open fire on our towns, would we not attack Damascus? If the Cubans were to fire at Miami, wouldn’t Havana suffer the consequences? That’s what’s called “deterrence” – if you shoot at me, I’ll shoot at you. There is no justification for the State of Gaza being able to shoot at our towns with impunity. We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.

    There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. Then they’d really call for a ceasefire.

    Were this to happen, the images from Gaza might be unpleasant – but victory would be swift, and the lives of our soldiers and civilians spared.

    IF THE government isn’t prepared to go all the way on this, it will mean reoccupying the entire Gaza Strip. Not a few neighborhoods in the suburbs, as with Cast Lead, but the entire Strip, like in Defensive Shield, so that rockets can no longer be fired.

    There is no middle path here – either the Gazans and their infrastructure are made to pay the price, or we reoccupy the entire Gaza Strip. Otherwise there will be no decisive victory. And we’re running out of time – we must achieve victory quickly. The Netanyahu government is on a short international leash. Soon the pressure will start – and a million civilians can’t live under fire for long. This needs to end quickly – with a bang, not a whimper.

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  83. Tom Jackson (2,518 comments) says:

    If Hamas is crushed and I mean annihilated the normal Palestinian has some chance at a normal life.

    Is that the new Tui ad?

    Israel should just turn the place into a parking lot, fuck world opinion , just do it, and then fuck anyone who tries to do anything about it and keep doing it until these pieces of shit get the message, – they are animals and deserve to be treated as an unruly animal, humanely put down.

    And in the next breath you’d tell us how Hamas are a load of genocidal maniacs with no sense of decency…

    Try reading what you’ve written when sober.

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  84. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    Those critical of Israel are offering no alternative to address the rocket attacks. When asked for one they quickly change the subject, to historical wrongs or other issues. Maybe those issues have merit, but they will not protect people from rockets.

    Hamas can not expect to fire hundreds of rockets and get no response from the target. The fact that Israel is better armed, gives no moral high ground to Hamas. If Hamas does not like Gaza getting hit, then they can stop the rockets.

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  85. Tom Jackson (2,518 comments) says:

    We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too.

    They would never do this. It would be a remarkable act of self immolation by Israel, and would create all sorts of social problems for diaspora Jews, given that the “spokespeople” for these communities would likely defend such acts to the horror of their fellow citizens.

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  86. valeriusterminus (247 comments) says:

    Hey Kea
    An alternative – “Honour the Treaty (GA181)” sound familiar?
    Primarily Right of Return and Compensation.
    GA181 precedes any rockets from Hamas or PLO.
    Israel’s failure to deliver on the obligations of GA181 is the root of their misfortune since 1948.
    GA181 promised the Zionists – if you do “that” you can have “this”
    They now have much more “this” but never did “that”.
    Contract obligation Fail !

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  87. Tom Jackson (2,518 comments) says:

    Hamas can not expect to fire hundreds of rockets and get no response from the target. [..] If Hamas does not like Gaza getting hit, then they can stop the rockets.

    Let’s reverse this.

    Israel cannot expect to forcible keep millions of people under occupation in an open air prison and in near poverty and get no response. If Israel does not like getting hit, then they can stop the occupation.

    Those critical of Israel are offering no alternative to address the rocket attacks.

    They offer it consistently: end the occupation and honour UN Resolution 242.

    When asked for one they quickly change the subject, to historical wrongs or other issues. Maybe those issues have merit, but they will not protect people from rockets.

    When Israel is asked to end the occupation, they quickly change the subject to the supposed genocidal urges of untrustworthy Palestinians. This could be argued in circles forever.

    But it doesn’t matter anyway. The death knell for Israel already sounded earlier this year. Jews are now by a small margin a minority in Israel/Palestine (surprising, huh?), and the continuing troubles in Gaza and the expanding tentacles of settlements in the West Bank mean that Israel can no longer politically separate itself from the Palestinians. At some point, not too far from now, the Palestinians are going to give up on agitating for an independent state and campaign for full civil rights within Israel. Watch for it, because it is coming, and there’s nothing that anyone can do about it.

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  88. Random Punter (65 comments) says:

    mikenmild (5,649) Says:
    November 21st, 2012 at 9:14 pm
    I’d be interested in Kiwibloggers’ recommendations for a good introductory history to the Middle East conflicts.

    I’d recommend Bernard Wasserstein, Israelis and Palestinians: Why Do They Fight? Can They Stop?

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  89. Tauhei Notts (1,649 comments) says:

    Yoza at 6.39.
    Totally brilliant.
    And the widespread opprobrium written about your comments?
    I was chatting with a bloke who is trying to sell Christmas hams over the next four weeks. I told him “do not advertise on Kiwiblog. The readers do not buy them”.
    “But Tauhei, I work like a slave in my piggery at Kiwitahi.”
    “Mate, work will make you free. And after work you might be able to explain to the editor of Kiwiblog the difference between your and you’re. But those Yids will be unlikely to accept free advice from somebody in a heterosexual relationship like you”.

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  90. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    Kea is a funny chap. One moment there seems to be common ground with the more same commenters here, like myself, then he turns as rabid as a Zionist on speed!

    However, I have been doing a bit of research on the 2005 pullout of the settlers from Gaza by Israel, which I have maintained was to enable attention to be turned completely to colonising the West Bank.

    But another reason that I tend to forget about is the demographic bomb represented by the Gaza population, and that was admitted as a prime motivator of that 2005 pullout by none other than Simon Peres, the Ariel Sharon’s deputy prime minister:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/aug/16/comment.israelandthepalestinians

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  91. V (694 comments) says:

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-dangerous-success-of-iron-dome/

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  92. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Random Punter
    Thank you – that seems a decent recommendation.

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  93. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    Luc Hansen#

    “….Tim, tell your bosses to dismantle the blockade and work through a process that will enable peaceful cooperation. Ongoing conflict makes Israel less, not more secure….”

    Fakeastinians are actually jubilant!…….. They’ve got western governments to redefine the Palestinians’ war of extermination against Israel as a land dispute where Israel is in the wrong.

    They’ve got the western media to transmit that the Palestinians are the poor persecuted victims of Israel, so that the west stops Israel from defending itself by really coming after them.

    They’ve got the western intelligentsia to all but delegitimise Israel altogether, having bought their lies hook, line and sinker.

    So why should you despair Luc ? They think they are winning! :cool:

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  94. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    I should think that the Palestinians are very far away from being able to pursue a war of extermination. Tell me though, Harriet, do you agree with some of the other comments above to the effect that Israel should flatten the Gaza strip completely?

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  95. UglyTruth (4,551 comments) says:

    mikenmild (5,653) Says:
    November 21st, 2012 at 9:14 pm

    I’d be interested in Kiwibloggers’ recommendations for a good introductory history to the Middle East conflicts.

    http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/zionismpromotes.cfm
    http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/herzl/index.cfm
    http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/zionism/ZionistState/historical.cfm

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  96. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    I appreciate the thought, Ugly, but I’m not sure I’ll be making ‘Jews against Zionism’ my first stop in looking for a reading list.

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  97. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    At some point, not too far from now, the Palestinians are going to give up on agitating for an independent state and campaign for full civil rights within Israel. Watch for it, because it is coming, and there’s nothing that anyone can do about it.

    Tom, now your talking !

    I long ago thought that if the Palestinians used the democratic process, of Israel, their situation would be far more advanced by now. If they integrated themselves into normal Israeli society, from the start, we would be seeing a very different state than we do now. Jews and Muslims have lived, and do live, along side each other in harmony. All we ever hear about is the conflict. Even in Israel today, there are many Muslims who happily live there, work and run business.

    But when you address the problems by firing rockets, it is human nature that people will become more extreme in their views. People do not “fence sit” when their homes or families are at risk. They pick a side. This applies to both sides. The attacks must stop. The rockets have done nothing to advance the cause of Palestine, it is simply not working for them. It goes without saying that Israel most stop military action also.

    I would like to see a blended state of Israel, where both sides can prosper together. Jews, Christian, Muslims and even us atheists, can work together in a climate of mutual respect and cooperation.

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  98. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Not the stupidest approach, as Israel has no intention of ever allowing a viable Palestinian state to develop in the occupied territories; but demographics are against it, as there are just too many Arabs in Palestine overall. By ‘Palestine’ here I mean the old British mandate borders. Israel would need considerably less Arabs in the territories it wants before it could comfortably accept a civil society.

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  99. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    mm, Years ago I thought I would find out what all this fighting was about that we hear on the news. I read a book about how modern Israel was established. I literally could not believe it. I thought the book must be bias. So I read more books, along with background subjects about religion.( I recall “Jerusalem: One City, Three Faiths” by Karen Armstrong, was a good one.)

    I have seen nothing that justifies the establishment of a Jewish homeland. They may have historical links to the area, but so do many others. It is incredible that a person from Russia/USA etc, whos family has lived there for generations, can have more rights to occupy Israel, than a person whos family has lived there for centuries. I do not deny the validity of Jews living there. My problem is the -exclusive- rights they claim to have.

    It is not ok to go about claiming others land on the basis of religion or long past historical connections. Imagine if we all did that ! We could all claim rights in Africa, for a start. The holocaust provides no logical reason either. Many other peoples have suffered terribly through out history and do not get a country as compensation.

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  100. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    Well the modern history of Palestine really starts in the late nineteenth century with the rise of Zionism against the backdrop of the declining power of the Ottoman empire, rising nationalist sentiment among Arabs and the interests of the other great powers, notably Britain and France. But it’s hard to hold anyone to account one they’re out of living memory, so most modern myth-making starts with the heroic story of the foundation of modern Israel as Britain faced the reality of running away from the intractable problems she had created in the mandate. territory. Since then it’s been bad Arabs; good Jews or vice versa ever since.

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  101. Kea (11,878 comments) says:

    But it’s hard to hold anyone to account one they’re out of living memory

    And that my friend is why I believe Israel has a right to exist.

    The Muslims can not un-invent it. The people living there now, did not make this mess. They are just ordinary decent folk born into a difficult situation. They are not religious/Zionist nuts. The same applies to the people of Palestine. The vast majority on both sides are not into this. They are just doing what they can to survive. I feel for them all.

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  102. mikenmild (11,246 comments) says:

    If our platitudes made any difference the conflict would be long over.

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  103. tvb (4,253 comments) says:

    Hammas is testing their luck when they fire hundreds of rockets at random into Israel. The Iron dome seems to be working quite well knocking out many but not all missiles. Israel has a right to defend its-self against these attacks. Hammas cynically uses human shields especially children and gambles world opinion will react with horror when an Israeli drone drops a bomb on a high value target near a school. But Netanyahu the Israeli PM is no saint.

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  104. Luc Hansen (4,573 comments) says:

    And the guns fall silent…

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  105. virtualmark (1,514 comments) says:

    tvb …

    The Iron dome seems to be working quite well knocking out many but not all missiles

    The Iron Dome system works out where the rocket is going to fall and only fires one of its own missiles at it if it’s heading for a populated area. So it intentionally lets some Palestinian rockets carry on. No point firing off expensive missiles at rockets that aren’t likely to be putting lives at risk.

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  106. Bob100 (8 comments) says:

    Try this for size. Why did this “exchange” erupt now? Abbas is going to the UN seeking a heightened status for the Palestinians based on the Green Line borders. Israel is doing all in its power to paint this as a disaster. Such recognition may open the way for the Palestinians to go to the World Court with charges against the Israelis. Remember there is an election very soon in Israel as well.

    On Hamas’s side the last thing they want is for Abbas’s request to succeed. A political win of this magnitude would be very damaging for them and the other more terrorist groups among the Palestinians.

    Both groups have their own agendas but I don’t think “protecting our people” figures very highly.

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