General Debate 18 April 2014

April 18th, 2014 at 8:00 am by Kokila Patel
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205 Responses to “General Debate 18 April 2014”

  1. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    The strongman is also a showman: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2606846/From-one-spy-Putin-says-Russia-not-carrying-mass-surveillance-citizens-response-question-Edward-Snowden-live-televised-Q-A.html

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  2. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    “In the pioneer days on the prairie lands, people would sometimes find themselves about to be consumed. They would be in the middle of a field and a fire would catch in the tall, dry grass. Stiff winds pushed the flames towards them, so fast not even horses could outrun them. There was no time to escape. Instead they took a match and burned a patch of ground where they stood. Then they waited on the burned-over ground. The prairie fire swept up to the edge of the patch and, finding nothing there to consume, passed by.

    And later, the fire proved a gift to the earth: It burned what was already dead, and it’s ashes nurtured new life.

    Jesus Christ burned the earth with His cross. God poured out His wrath (which we deserve) on His Son. If we take our stand there, the wrath to come will pass us by, and in it’s time will renew the very earth it devours.’

    Mark Buchanan – ‘The Holy Wild.’

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  3. OECD rank 22 kiwi (2,819 comments) says:

    What Americaland has to say.

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  4. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    Everyone having a good Friday so far?

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  5. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Are Waitangi Tribunal working today getting a claim in for the new planet?

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  6. big bruv (13,454 comments) says:

    They will all enjoy their day off mike, all the more so knowing that they have another day off on Sunday.

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  7. SGA (931 comments) says:

    mikenmild at 8:48 am

    Everyone having a good Friday so far?

    Bit worried actually – I hope that all the bad weather over the weekend doesn’t upset the Easter Bunny’s schedule too much.

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  8. stephieboy (2,455 comments) says:

    Poetry and Prose for this day of Holy Obligation Good Friday . Please Enjoy.

    John 19 vs  23- 28 .

    Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was without seam, woven from the top in one piece. 24 They said therefore among themselves, “Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be,” that the Scripture might be fulfilled which says:
    “They divided My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.”[d]
    Therefore the soldiers did these things.
    Behold Your Mother
    25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” 27 Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.
    It Is Finished
    28 After this, Jesus, knowing[e] that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I thirst!” 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

    Blow, Blow, Thou Winter Wind ( Edited )

    Blow, blow, thou winter wind
    Thou art not so unkind
    As man’s ingratitude;
    Thy tooth is not so keen,
    Because thou art not seen,
    Although thy breath be rude.

    Freeze, freeze thou bitter sky,
    That does not bite so nigh
    As benefits forgot:
    Though thou the waters warp,
    Thy sting is not so sharp
    As a friend remembered not.

    William Shakespeare .As You Like it

    Via Dolorosa

    IV
    LIBITINA VERTICORDIA
    …….Sister of sleep, healer of life, divine
As rest and strong as very love may be,
To set the soul that love could set not free,
To bid the skies that day could bid not shine,
To give the gift that life withheld was thine.
With all my heart I loved one borne from me:
And all my heart bows down and praises thee,
Death, that hast now made grief not his but mine.
    O Changer of men’s hearts, we would not bid thee
Turn back our hearts from sorrow: this alone
We bid, we pray thee, from thy sovereign throne
And sanctuary sublime where heaven has hid thee,
Give: grace to know of those for whom we weep
That if they wake their life is sweet as sleep.
    
V
    THE ORDER OF RELEASE
    Thou canst not give it. Grace enough is ours
To know that pain for him has fallen on rest.
The worst we know was his on earth: the best,
We fain would think,–a thought no fear deflowers–
Is his, released from bonds of rayless hours.
Ah, turn our hearts from longing; bid our quest
Cease, as content with failure. This thy guest
Sleeps, vexed no more of time’s imperious powers,
The spirit of hope, the spirit of change and loss,
The spirit of love bowed down beneath his cross,
Nor now needs comfort from the strength of song.
Love, should he wake, bears now no cross for him:
Dead hope, whose living eyes like his were dim,
Has brought forth better comfort, strength more strong…..

    Algernon Charles Swinburne .

    Stabat Mater Dolorosa Pergolsi


    .

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  9. peterwn (3,192 comments) says:

    See:
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/wellington/9951325/Storage-customers-consider-legal-action

    Hate to be harsh, but the customers would need to show either negligence or breach of contract on the part of the storage company. It would be difficult to prove negligence merely because the owner provided facilities well short of Fort Knox standards. Sprinklers are not normal in storage units, so it is difficult to argue that the owner should install sprinklers, similarly a tenant cannot expect a landlord to provide sprinklers unless it is agreed to or sprinklers are already in place.

    Storage customers could have a case if the owner failed to ensure premises were reasonably secure in the circumstances eg if there is an automatic gate or cameras, it would be negligent if the owner did not keep them functional. It would not be negligent just because security was not up to Fort Knox standards.

    Then customers complain about lack of insurance cover on their contents policies. Perhaps insurance companies are more concerned about fraudulent claims than about break-ins, so it all probably comes down to the customer arranging appropriate cover and being in a position to prove (on a balance of probabilities) what goods were stored and their value.

    Extra fire protection and security costs money and would be reflected in increased rents. If I was in the business I might consider having several units with enhanced security and fire protection separately enclosed for those customers wanting extra peace of mind.

    While the losses are regrettable, one would very much doubt that the customers could pursue a claim successfully.

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  10. OneTrack (2,754 comments) says:

    peterwn – just another symptom of Aotearoa 2014 and anything that happens is considered somebody elses fault.

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  11. igm (1,413 comments) says:

    Mr Ed (Ardern) is questioning why sworn police are leaving the force. Reason is: Labour’s lowering of entry standards both academically and physically, along with a leaning to socialists, has driven many hard-nosed decent cops out. Read “Confessions From the Front Line”, where cops were cops, not undersized weaklings and sociology adherents.

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  12. stephieboy (2,455 comments) says:

    igm,

    The police I see coming from time to time to the public hospital I work at are generally very big, fit and strong.
    Same at the local police station.
    And if Araon Rhys Mc Donald is anything to go by , a very stressful job.!

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  13. RF (1,324 comments) says:

    igm…….When I worked in “The Job” the street wise cops came from backgrounds such as truck drivers, Shearers etc… Not wiz kids destined to be commissioned officers but hard working troops who watched your 6 and got their man.

    The Uni types were usually fast tracked for a higher calling and many although issued with a torch never used it. If you get my meaning.

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  14. big bruv (13,454 comments) says:

    “of Aotearoa 2014″

    Where?

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  15. Pete George (23,165 comments) says:

    More views on the Karam versus Parker and Purkiss defamation case:

    The Paepae: Defamation via Facebook and ‘a private website’

    This defamation case should be a shot across the bows of various internet wide-boys who think ‘defence of truth’ or ‘opinion honestly held’ is some kind of magic elixir or Get Out of Jail Free card. It’s worth noting the oh-so-easy-to-reach-for-until-you’re-tested ‘truth defence’ in this case was abandoned during the trial.

    Occasional Erudite: The Joe Karam defamation case – what does it mean for blogs and social media?

    To my mind though, the way in which Courtney J has applied the threshold test under which honest opinion can be relied upon doesn’t necessarily take into account the way that blogs and social media sites function.

    That’s why I’m slightly uncomfortable with the judgment. A comment on a blog post, when viewed in isolation or as part of the individual blog post and the thread of comments that follow, may not appear to have a factual basis. However, when viewed as part of a blogger or commentator’s history of blogging or commenting, may have a factual basis that is well known to others who frequent the blog.

    That’s not to say that the defendants in Mr Karam’s defamation suit don’t richly deserve to have been found to have defamed Mr Karam. My concern is whether the case sets a precedent that doesn’t necessarily fit with the way that blogs and social media actually operate.

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  16. Fletch (6,104 comments) says:

    Another good article in the Herald today.

    Easter is coming with eggs and other trivia; Christ will be ignored. New Zealand is not a Christian country in the sense that most of us are faithful believers but like the rest of the West it remains, for a while, ‘Christianised’.

    Most New Zealanders take equality of everyone under the law, from Prime Minister to the bottom of the heap, for granted. Only countries with a Christianised history benefit from this tradition. Ancient Rome did not hand this on to us and neither did any Greek city state or tyrant. That contemporary priestly vocation, secular multiculturalism, is an amnesiac devouring its own roots. Diversity can be fun but it’s a foundation for nothing.

    The conviction that all men and women are created in God’s image is the essence that infuses equality under the law. Together these inhibit the totalitarian state. They are the only barricade civil society has against creeping tyranny. Democracy decays without them

    [...]

    In spite of their rebellion God loves his creatures. To prove it and to fulfil the just demands of the law, in the person of Christ, he becomes man and dies on a cross. The Creator of Life is killed by his creatures; the irony is deliberate. The debt incurred by the creature’s rebellion is paid. Death, the consequence of our rebellion, cannot hold Jesus. He rises on the third day fully human and fully God. At last the rebel can be liberated from the power and consequences of his own folly.

    This is the story of our culture. It declares our dignity by teaching that freedom is first of all about self-control that comes from trusting God. It is not about the counterfeit of undisciplined choice. The more godlike the sovereignty of choice becomes the less free our lives will be.

    It is vacuous to claim that we are creating a new story to replace the old. The equality shibboleth of diversity and tolerance will have a limited life. Rubbing along together by excavating what we least disagree about is tiresome. It leads to increasing group self-interest and conflicting rights.

    There are only two stories. Either the Easter story is true and Christ is our redeemer or it is a lie. The second story is a tragedy. The State, with or without paganised civil religion, is the default saviour.

    When I was a boy most of us believed the first story; some of us put our trust in its Hero. We are sinners no longer. Guilt and shame and certainly sin, are psychological fictions; humility a weakness. Government, like Caesar, is the priest and king unable to forgive our trespasses. It tells us how to think, live and worship. Don’t imagine you won’t worship; you will. You are locked into it. There is a dubious consolation. Risk and suffering will be at arm’s length and you can ‘choose’ death with illusory self-esteem secure.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11239986

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  17. kowtow (7,871 comments) says:

    RF et al

    Another huge problem in policing across the Anglosphere is managerialism.

    This started as far as I can tell in the UK in the ’80′s and seems to have spread far and wide.Possibly through places like Bramshill with the command courses they run there for commonwealth and UK police.

    Old fashioned leadership has given way to managers and target culture as well as the fact that most if not all taxpayer funded organisations have been politicised and are now agencies for social engineering under the guise of “equality”.

    As someone else pointed out on another post ,National have forgotten or ignore their founding principles while police forces have binned Peels policing principles (if they’ve even heard of them).

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  18. holysheet (286 comments) says:

    SB said
    The police I see coming from time to time to the public hospital I work at are generally very big, fit and strong.
    Same at the local police station.

    thats because all the big brawny ones are imports from overseas. you just have to listen to their accents when they talk on the various police reality shows on TV.

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  19. Andrei (2,529 comments) says:

    Well Fletch – that in the NZ Herald on a Good Friday Morning is a wonder to behold.

    No Glynn Cardy posters this year, no boxes containing of the bones of Christ recently “discovered” a straight story on target

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  20. kowtow (7,871 comments) says:

    Talking of accents and reality TV shows….

    ……they must have elocution lessons at the police college to teach them “Bro talk”.What strikes me is ‘bro’ this and ‘bro’ that, ‘cool eh’ etc, all delivered with the newly fashionable maori accent that so many of our youngsters seem to affect these days…..

    The ultimate in dumbing down. That maori renaissance has a lot to answer for.

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  21. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    Yes, Andrei, I have to admit I was very happy when Glynn Cardy left the Anglican church.

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  22. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    Most New Zealanders take equality of everyone under the law, from Prime Minister to the bottom of the heap, for granted. Only countries with a Christianised history benefit from this tradition. Ancient Rome did not hand this on to us and neither did any Greek city state or tyrant.

    The doctrine of universalism is Roman in the sense that it was an integral part of the official religion of Rome, i.e. Roman Catholic Christianity, since Catholic, from katholika, means universal.

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  23. stephieboy (2,455 comments) says:

    Peter George, Very good points re Karam versus Parker defamation case,

    John Keys , David Cunilffe and Russell Norman daily on fb , blogs ,including this one ,endure much, much worse.

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  24. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    In spite of their rebellion God loves his creatures

    That’ll be the same deity which drowned everyone in the entire world and which consigns all non-believers, including babies and children, to an eternity of fire.

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  25. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    It is difficult to maintain any faith is such a vicious, vengeful god. You won’t get such treatment from the Fying Spaghetti Monster. It’s clear then, who is best to believe in.

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  26. stephieboy (2,455 comments) says:

    holysheet.

    You’ve got be to stone deaf.
    Could be a good idea for you to go for a long , long wander with your walking frame.

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  27. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    A literary great has died: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-17/gabriel-garcia-marquez-nobel-prize-winning-novelist-dies-at-87.html

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  28. dirty harry (444 comments) says:

    Love Easter..double time and 12 hours day in Lieu..cha ching..

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  29. Fletch (6,104 comments) says:

    That’ll be the same deity which drowned everyone in the entire world and which consigns all non-believers, including babies and children, to an eternity of fire.

    Does a creator not have a right to destroy what he creates? Even if the creation thinks it is so very special (based on what, without God?) I do not believe that God consigns all non-believers to fire, either.

    For the Church’s teaching on the salvation of non-Christians, see paragraphs 839-848 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, especially this section:

    “This affirmation [no salvation outside the Church] is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

    “Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience — those too may achieve eternal salvation.

    “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men” (CCC 847-848).

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  30. dirty harry (444 comments) says:

    stephieboy

    do keep up..its John ‘ Key’ , ‘Russel’ Norman and David ‘Cunliffe’..

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  31. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    “which consigns all non-believers, including babies and children, to an eternity of fire.”

    Where do you get that from Scripture? For a start it never says anything about babies and children. And the issue of salvation not as simplistic as you define it.

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  32. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    ShawnLH,

    Please don’t be disingenuous.

    Have the courage to face the consequences of this abhorrent belief system.

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  33. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    Thanks Fletch. Not RC myself but I agree with those statements.

    Atheists are often lazy thinkers. They go for straw man caricatures of real Christianity, or make references to the Fying Spaghetti Monster, because doing any serious study of what most Christians actually believe, and then offering a serious critique, would exercise their brains a little too much for their liking.

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  34. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    His Noodleness forgives you, Shawn. The beauty of the FSM is that there is as much evidence for the existence of His Noodleness as there is for your imaginary deity.

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  35. SGA (931 comments) says:

    ShawnLH at 12:20 pm

    because doing any serious study of what most Christians actually believe would exercise their brains a little too much for their liking.

    To be fair, that would also be true of what some chrisitians’ knowledge of “science” or competing religions.

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  36. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    “Please don’t be disingenuous.”

    I’m not, you are. Have the courage to face the consequences of your ignorance.

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  37. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    “there is as much evidence for the existence of His Noodleness as there is for your imaginary deity.”

    Not really. There is that lazy thinking I was talking about. We have more textual and historical evidence for Jesus than for Julius Caesar. There is none for your straw man.

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  38. Johnboy (15,410 comments) says:

    Gee. It will be an exciting series of games in the Swindale Shield tomorrow! :)

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  39. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    Atheists are often lazy thinkers. They go for straw man caricatures of real Christianity…because doing any serious study of what most Christians actually believe, and then offering a serious critique, would exercise their brains a little too much for their liking.

    You completely misunderstand, or misrepresent, the position.

    The problem is that ‘what Christians actually believe’ is mostly completely unbiblical (witness your bafflement when the consequences of ‘being saved’ were mentioned above.)

    What you fake “Christians” cannot deal with is having the ugliness and sheer evilness of the Bible presented back to you unvarnished.

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  40. kowtow (7,871 comments) says:

    A belief system whose central tenet is ‘Love your neighbour” can only be abhorrant to someone full of hatred and bitterness.

    And yes,Jesus Christ died for all mankind ,including the wat dabneys of this world….

    On this day.Good Friday.

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  41. Johnboy (15,410 comments) says:

    Odd games I’ve loved HOBM. I see no conflict of faith there! :)

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  42. SGA (931 comments) says:

    kowtow at 12:33 pm

    A belief system whose central tenet is ‘Love your neighbour” can only be abhorrant to someone full of hatred and bitterness.

    And yet, when I think of your comments on this blog the phrase ‘Love your neighbour’ isn’t my first thought. Odd.

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  43. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    “The problem is that ‘what Christians actually believe’ is mostly completely unbiblical”

    Classical Christian theology is Biblical.

    “witness your bafflement when the consequences of ‘being saved’ were mentioned above.”

    I wasn’t baffled, you were. You understanding of salvation is not Biblical to begin with.

    “What you fake “Christians” cannot deal with is having the ugliness and sheer evilness of the Bible presented back to you unvarnished.”

    What you fake atheists cannot deal with is your total lack of Biblical understanding and knowledge.

    I’m happy to take my Scripture unvarnished, rather than the varnishing that ignorant, uneducated and trolling atheists engage in.

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  44. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    Actually Shawn, there is no reliable historical evidence for Jesus outside the gospels. But you know that. At least for Caesar we have his own writings.

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  45. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    No Mike. Remember that I’m a theology student at a secular university. So what I do know is that your wrong. Again.

    Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources:

    http://www.probe.org/site/c.fdKEIMNsEoG/b.4223639/k.567/Ancient_Evidence_for_Jesus_from_NonChristian_Sources.htm

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  46. stephieboy (2,455 comments) says:

    This would have to be a highlight from the Pistorius trial thus far. Prosecutor shreds to pieces the credibility of Defence expert witness in forensic geology Roger Dixon.

    http://ewn.co.za/2014/04/16/Oscar-Pistorius-trial-Nel-shakes-Dixons-credibility#

    Utterly priceless.

    Not looking good Oscar.!

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  47. Fletch (6,104 comments) says:

    Actually Shawn, there is no reliable historical evidence for Jesus outside the gospels. But you know that.

    You’re wrong. Any true historian, Christian or not, believes Jesus existed
    Bart Ehrman is arguably the most influential Bible critic of our day. He frequently debates Christian scholars about the reliability of the New Testament gospels from a historical standpoint. While he is a skeptic in terms of the overall truth of the Christian faith, he is not skeptical about the existence of a real Jesus.

    I am not a Christian, and I have no interest in promoting a Christian cause or a Christian agenda. I am an agnostic with atheist leanings , and my life and views of the world would be approximately the same whether or not Jesus existed. . . . But as a historian I think evidence matters. And the past matters. And for anyone to whom both evidence and the past matter, a dispassionate consideration of the case makes it quite plain: Jesus did exist. ~ Ehrman, Did Jesus Exist? 5– 6.

    And, of course, Jesus is mentioned by Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, a Roman governor of Bithynia, Flavius Josephus, the third-century historian Julius Africanus by way of first-century historian Thallus, who wrote about the darkness that occurred at the time of the crucifixion:

    On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the 263 book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Savior fails on the day before the passover [see Phlegon]; but an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time but in the interval between the first day of the new moon and the last of the old, that is, at their junction: how then should an eclipse be supposed to happen when the moon is almost diametrically opposite the sun? ~ Julius Africanus, Chronography 18.1

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  48. Johnboy (15,410 comments) says:

    Prayer for good Friday:

    “Oh lord Jesus ….save us poor souls from Theology Students Amen” ! :)

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  49. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    Thanks for that Fletch.

    Is it too much to expect atheists, who are always ranting about “reason” and evidence, to actually get an education?

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  50. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    Aren’t the Swindale Shield games on today and Monday, JB?

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  51. freemark (497 comments) says:

    A few of you are ruining GD for many of us. Here are my suggestions..
    1) rename the 10 Commandments “rules for a happy & successful society”
    2) Live the rules
    3) Start your own blog “haters vs lovers’ or something like that.
    4) Have a happy Easter break, whatever it means for you, but don’t tell anyone else what it should mean for them.
    Thanks

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  52. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    ‘Jesus is mentioned by Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, a Roman governor of Bithynia, Flavius Josephus, the third-century historian Julius Africanus by way of first-century historian Thallus’
    I’m sure you will correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe any of these are contemporary sources. Julius Caesar still ahead in the reality stakes.

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  53. Johnboy (15,410 comments) says:

    A disgusting abomination of the lords two most sacred days that Rugby should be played on them milkey! :)

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  54. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    So Mike all you have done is to change your argument from “no evidence” to “no contemporary evidence.”

    Admit you were wrong on the first assertion, then we may make progress. But when you start with clearly ignorant statements then try to backtrack, it does not say much for your much vaunted “reason.”

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  55. Viking2 (11,220 comments) says:

    South Canterbury Finance’s collapse has left New Zealand $808 million out of pocket, with a Treasury representative admitting it knew the company was troubled but let it into the extended guarantee scheme anyway.

    Former SCF chief executive Lachie McLeod, and former directors Edward Sullivan and Robert White, are on trial before Justice Heath in the High Court at Timaru, on a combined 18 charges laid by the Serious Fraud Office.

    SCF collapsed in August 2010, with taxpayers’ money paid to investors under the Government retail deposit guarantee scheme.

    Treasury manager of guarantee schemes John Park gave evidence yesterday, discussing Treasury’s awareness of the flagging finance company’s troubles.

    ===============================

    so us taxpayers have done 808 million because treasury and English didn’t do the homework.
    send Bill the Bill.

    ( No wonder we have borrowed 50 billion since 2006)

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/timaru-herald/news/9951284/Taxpayers-lose-808m-in-finance-collapse

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  56. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    A brilliant destruction of atheist claims to rely on reason.

    CELESTIAL TEAPOTS, FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTERS, AND OTHER SILLY ATHEIST ARGUMENTS.

    “You have to pity the modern atheist who attempts to present arguments for her cause. Unmoored from any respectable intellectual tradition, each generation is forced to recreate anti-theistic arguments from scratch. The result is that the claims which they believe to be clever and damning often turn out to be—to use a technical philosophical phrase—just plain silly.”

    http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/05/celestial-teapots-flying-spaghetti-monsters-and-other-silly-atheist-arguments

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  57. SGA (931 comments) says:

    ShawnLHat 1:03 pm

    So Mike all you have done is to change your argument from “no evidence” to “no contemporary evidence.”

    I hope you aren’t relying on any “anecdotal and untested “evidence” and uninformed witnesses” :-)

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  58. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    Falsifying the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

    “There is a fundamental distinction between the way that Christian apologists approach proving a negative, and the way that atheists approach proving a negative. The distinction is that Christian apologists give good reasons to accept that something doesn’t exist or isn’t true, whereas atheist apologists will commit a fallacy known as an argument from ignorance. The atheist will say “If you can’t prove to my satisfaction that God exists, then I am justified in not believing.” It is an argument from ignorance to say that “X” does not exist because it hasn’t been proven to my satisfaction. However, Christian apologists will say, “We have good reasons to not accept your claim.” and then will proceed to give those reasons.”

    http://answersforhope.org/portfolio_item/falsifying-flying-spaghetti-monster/

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  59. Viking2 (11,220 comments) says:

    Found where the Flying spagethi Monster comes from.

    Astronomers have discovered what they say is the most Earth-like planet yet detected – a distant, rocky world that’s similar in size to our own and exists in the Goldilocks zone where it’s not too hot and not too cold for life.

    The find excited planet hunters who have been scouring the Milky Way galaxy for years for potentially habitable places outside our solar system.

    “This is the best case for a habitable planet yet found. The results are absolutely rock solid,” University of California, Berkeley astronomer Geoff Marcy, said.
    ===============================
    :lol:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/science/9956531/Earth-like-planet-breakthrough-discovery

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  60. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    The Conflict Really Lies within New Atheism

    “In his new book “Where the Conflict Really Lies,” Alvin Plantinga levels a devastating critique against the “new atheism” espoused by thinkers such as Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens.

    Plantinga gives a wealth of argument for the theist to use against the claims of atheism. And in this, it must be said, he exercises considerably more intellectual virtue than his opponents. Plantinga’s early chapters are devastating in revealing that the prime architects of the new atheism almost inevitably gravitate toward straw-man characterizations of their opponents’ views, attribute venal motives to their opponents, and fail to investigate the intellectual sources of Christianity, giving no weight, for example, to the classical arguments of Aquinas and Locke, or the arguments of contemporary theists such as Swinburne and van Inwagen. Their rhetoric is inevitably condescending, as the development of the recent cult of the “flying spaghetti monster” makes clear.”

    http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/06/5612/

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  61. SGA (931 comments) says:

    @ShawnLH
    All these quotes and links – remind you of any other regulars to this blog?

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  62. wf (390 comments) says:

    I’m getting the feeling that John Key needs to step back from the limelight, & stay in one place for a week.

    He’s in danger of overexposure.

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  63. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    So I’m backtracking? Tell me again how there’s more evidence for Jesus than there is for Caesar.

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  64. stephieboy (2,455 comments) says:

    “In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadow for those who don’t.”

    ― Blaise Pascal

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  65. cha (3,830 comments) says:

    remind you of any other regulars to this blog?

    Say it ain’t (*squawk*) so!.

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  66. freemark (497 comments) says:

    “Viking2 (10,700 comments) says:
    April 18th, 2014 at 1:04 pm
    South Canterbury Finance’s collapse has left New Zealand $808 million out of pocket, with a Treasury representative admitting it knew the company was troubled but let it into the extended guarantee scheme anyway.”

    If you don’t know the history of the Finance Co. Guarantees you are a fuckwit and have no place commenting on it.
    If you do you are a fuckwit anyway for your infantile comment.
    FYI NZ Govt (taxpayer) spending on Welfare (excluding amounts via IRD) appears to be around $500M per week. You’d like to see that chopped down no doubt?

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  67. Jack5 (4,785 comments) says:

    Anybody know much about the NZ Drug Foundation, which seems to be at odds with southern local bodies over synthetic drugs?

    Its web site talks about “Aotearoa New Zealand”, a description that typically signals liberal-prog influence, and it seems to reflect the views of folk who professionally treat drug addicts. I’m sure these people work hard for what they consider is the good and health of the community. Their views obviously need to be taken seriously. The views of affected communities, including ordinary citizens, parents, families, former addicts, police, mayors, and so on equally deserve to be taken seriously.

    It’s questionable whether concern of families and communities about synthetic drugs deserves to be labelled “hysteria” (as the foundation is reported as doing). To my mind, that’s the sort of bullshit that politicians seem to be filtering to the MSM through various gullible contacts.

    From a TV3 interview a little time back with Ross Bell, the foundation’s administrator, the foundation showed it supports regulation rather than prohibition, which it says doesn’t work.

    While NZ and other Western countries let synthetic poisons wash a generation of young people down the drain, Singapore shows prohibition can work. The point will arrive where we may surrender a little freedom so that the synthetic narco’s damaging trade can be suppressed.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/9956952/Southern-mayors-Ban-legal-highs

    AND

    https://www.drugfoundation.org.nz/about-us/what-we-do

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  68. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    After the American lie about the head of the CIA being in Ukraine, Putin confirms his own.

    He finally admits Russian forces were in Crimea. Possibly to increase credibility to his claim that they are not yet in Ukraine (whether this is true we cannot easily know).

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11240146

    Now we have the Russians seeking ethnic citizens of eastern Ukraine to register with local authorities. The initial focus is on Jews. A reminder of Stalin’s days (one wonders how Tartars in Crimea are being profiled by Russian security and whether the continued repatriation from lands they were deported to will actually continue for long).

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11240510

    Ukraine was wrong to respond to local activists as they did (re the show of force). Much smarter would have been overnight movements into key airfield positions (to reduce Russian troop movement options) and a statement that decisions on autonomous rule in the east (as Crimea had) would be determined after presidential and parliamentary elections – with the candidates and parties seeking mandate for their policies.

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  69. Viking2 (11,220 comments) says:

    freemark. Its you that’s the clown.

    I am am well aware of the history and find it reprehensible that the taxpayer should bail out a bunch of bad financiers, their funders and customers with the support and indulgence of Treasury and English when it was obvious long before the fact that SCF was in the crap and was going under.
    If you didn’t know it was then you, like them, must have had your eyes up your arse.

    Govt. won’t bail me or my business affairs out. But then I’m not a member of Socialist Unity nor an I a bank.

    And of course spending 500m a week on welfare, that in many cases is comfy handouts, e.g 20 hours childcare, to people who should do things for themselves doesn’t work in my book. Its creates a legacy of debt which NZ is rapidly piling up as indicated by Govt. Borrowings.
    Debt that will hang round our neck for a long time. Still I will be retired while you are still paying for it so that’s fine.

    I guess you were one of the privileged that was refunded some money from SCF so you think its alright the taxpayer should fund
    that handout.

    It ain’t the Taxpayers role in life to fund your mistakes.

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  70. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    Prohibition obviously hasn’t worked in NZ. Time to either make it work – damned if I know how – or move to a more sensible regime based on letting adults take charge of what substances they use and letting the justice and health systems focus on harm minimisation.

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  71. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    SPC
    It appears that Russia might be drawing back from its threats over eastern Ukraine:
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/04/17/russia_ukraine_e_u_and_u_s_reach_deal_to_defuse_eastern_ukraine_crisis.html

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  72. Jack5 (4,785 comments) says:

    Re Milkenmild on drug control (2.11 post).

    Milkenmild, that would of course meaning immediately ending the campaign to stop people smoking tobacco.

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  73. UrbanNeocolonialist (206 comments) says:

    http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/josephus-etal.html
    Unlike other founding religious figures like Mohammed, Guru Nanak, Joseph Smith, Buddha, Haile Selassi there is little to no reliable contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus. And there are some strong indications of later fabrications to shore up the weakness in the story.

    That is pretty damning given the millions of man years that have been devoted by Christian clergy to building up the story and destroying anything that might have put it in a poor light, while they held an almost complete monopoly on record keeping and scholarship in Europe for 1500 years that allowed them to get away with it.

    Not that it makes any difference to the truth of the Bible, it’s just remarkable that the central figure may be a myth or composite assembly of other individuals/stories.

    If you are Christian; why you are not a Muslim? A Zoroastrian? A Daoist? A Buddhist? A Hindu? A Mormon? A Sikh? A Santerian? A Wiccan? A Jew? Do you honestly believe you would not be a follower of one of these other faiths if you had been bought up in it? So how can you honestly hold christian beliefs above or ahead those others?

    Go on, stick your fingers in your ears, sing La-La-La and vote me down :)

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  74. cha (3,830 comments) says:

    Old habits.

    A leaflet distributed in Donetsk, Ukraine calling for all Jews over 16 years old to register as Jews marred the Jewish community’s Passover festivities Monday (Passover eve), replacing them with feelings of concern.

    The leaflet demanded the city’s Jews supply a detailed list of all the property they own, or else have their citizenship revoked, face deportion and see their assets confiscated.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4510688,00.html

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  75. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    Jack5
    Not necessarily. I could imagine education campaigns to promote reduced use of other legal substances.

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  76. Rowan (1,946 comments) says:

    http://www.thepaepae.com/wp-uploads/2014/04/Parker_intends_to_appeal.jpg

    Some people just never learn do they! hopefully this nutjob will only get himself into further strife by trying to take this further, although it looks like Kent will be bankrupted so not sure how much further he can go. Kent you should have settled this long ago way before it got this far, but no you had to keep fighting it. You have well intruly dug your own grave, with your actions and your big mouth, and deserve everything the courts throw at you. Its a pity (for you) that your so called friends who promised you money have left you high and dry but that just shows you what spineless shits they really are. Time to catch that flight to North Korea!

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  77. Jack5 (4,785 comments) says:

    Milkenmild: you mean you would be able to maintain such a vigorous campaign against cigarette smoking without doing the same against marijuana smoking?

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  78. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    I mean that a campaign against marijuana smoking would be fine if justified on health grounds. As I understand it, tobacco is way more harmful.

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  79. stephieboy (2,455 comments) says:

    cha,

    This part of the leaflet is interesting,

    “According to Alex Tenzer, a Kiev native and one of the directors of the National Association of Immigrants from the Former USSR in Israel, said: “The Jewish-Ukrainian leadership supports Ukraine’s new government, but it’s hard to tell whether the leaflet is valid or simply a provocation.

    “Anyway, the material is very anti-Semitic and reminds me of the kind of material distributed by the Nazis in WWII.”

    Of course, they’ll be those who will argue that Ynet is a tainted source and already on TM an anti semite there is describing it as a typical American / Jew ploy.

    We also need to remind ourselves that despite nearly 70 years of Soviet Communism anti semitism is still present in both countries post 1991. But if authentic it puts many Russians in the Eastern Ukraine in a very bad light.

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  80. Jack5 (4,785 comments) says:

    Re anti-Semitism in Eastern Ukraine.

    The following article in the Moscow Times suggests that Russia may be fomenting anti-Jewish incidents in the Ukraine in an attempt to brand the present Ukrainian Government as anti-Semitic, like the Ukrainian nationalists who fought alongside the Nazis in World War 2.

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/putins-fabricated-anti-semitism-in-ukraine/497950.html

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  81. nasska (10,834 comments) says:

    Jack5

    It is a little confusing to compare cannabis with tobacco…..while the latter can kill you & the former won’t one is an intoxicant.

    Rather, how would you feel about treating alcohol exactly the same way as marijuana?

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  82. publicwatchdog (2,225 comments) says:

    Hi Kiwibloggers – seen this?

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/five-things-youve-missed-behind-scenes-john-banks-pre-trial-hearings-sf

    “Five things you’ve missed behind the scenes of the John Banks’ pre-trial hearings”

    My comment – (yet to be published):
    __________________________________________________________________________________________________

    :) Well, I was one of the three people who made a complaint alleging electoral fraud against John Banks.

    Had the Police not failed to prosecute John Banks, this case would not have been taken to Court through Graham McCready’s private prosecution, with which I assisted.

    (I was the ‘process server’ who served the witness summonses which got Kim Dotcom, his lawyer, (former) bodyguard, and the CEO of Sky City into Court).

    PS: I’m usually VERY well-behaved if my LAWFUL rights to freedom of expression are respected, and Auckland Council ‘Standing Orders’ (based upon the underpinning Local Government Official Information and MEETINGS Act 1987) are followed in a proper way.

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

    (PPS: I, like Graham McCready have receive no public monies for the public interest work I choose do, as a self-funded ‘anti-corruption/anti-privatisation Public Watchdog’.

    Have a GREAT Easter! :)

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  83. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    nasska
    Or vice versa. I can imagine cannabis legalised, but subject to similar controls as we currently have for alcohol. It’d be great for tourism, among other benefits.

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  84. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    “……….prohibition obviously hasn’t worked in NZ. Time to either make it work – damned if I know how – or move to a more sensible regime based on letting adults take charge of what substances they use and letting the justice and health systems focus on harm minimisation…….”

    With drugs their is usually a dozen or so victims of an addict – the addict alone is not the sole victim of their drug use.

    The matter of ‘harm minimisation’ is that it does not take into account the side matters – parents, educators, employers ect watching the young waste more and more time while on drugs, and they themselves then having to spend more and more of their own precious time on the drug addict.

    Are you seriously going to believe that once an addict is before the courts or hospital mental crisis team that the problems are all over for those who know the addict? Hardly.

    Other addicts even rob and assault others for drugs and/or money creating even more victims.

    Cue the idot Collins – and her Victim’s Commissioner.

    You will certainly have more addicts if you legalise drugs[I'm not saying they will all be addicts] but as DG agreed with me on:

    ‘Natural pot’ that the hippies smoked in the 60′s sent no one to the mental wards but now with high strength hydroponics ect, people[more so the young] are suffering from serious mental issues. We read about that in the news all the time.

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  85. nasska (10,834 comments) says:

    That’s the way I’d like to see it too Mike.

    But if we are going to prohibit marijuanna just because a few old farts think it is likely to cause the downfall of society let’s ban alcohol too.

    That way everyone can be miserable just for no reason at all.

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  86. freemark (497 comments) says:

    @ Viking
    “I guess you were one of the privileged that was refunded some money from SCF so you think its alright the taxpayer should fund
    that handout.

    It ain’t the Taxpayers role in life to fund your mistakes”

    “The privileged”… and you say you’re not a Socialist? Any spare cash I have after investing in my children’s lunches, shoes, education and wellbeing I would rather invest in things like MRP & Genesis actually.
    The failure of SCF was, IMO mainly due to a Socialist (Hubbard) playing with other people’s money to massage his own ego..like most Socialists do. In hindsight allowing SCF to re-enter the scheme was probably a mistake, however the consequences of a failure at that time were far greater than they eventually were. When a large proportion of NZ (the feckless & criminal) are supported by the taxpayer I don’t see it as being a crime when some who have obviously been successful enough to have some cash to invest shouldn’t get some relief as well.
    As far as taxpayer funding mistakes..so you agree we should slash DPB, ACC etc as well?

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  87. Jack5 (4,785 comments) says:

    Re Nasska, at 2.52, on marijuana v. alcohol:

    Sounds like you seek a personal view, so:

    I believe alcohol control should be promoted as actively as tobacco control is, and since I think the latter is overdone, that means a bigger education campaign that it is subject to now, but not to the level of tobacco health advertising. I think alcohol sales need tighter control, and that there should be higher duty on it to help the enormous cost it inflicts on health and welfare systems – user pays!

    However, if NZ were to institute a Singapore-scale anti-drugs regime, I believe control, duties, and health advertising on alcohol would need to be scaled up still further.

    I don’t believe marijuana should be treated the same as alcohol. Alcohol for millennia has been the drug of choice of the West, and I don’t see any need for marijuana or hash or cocaine to supplement it. Alcohol does enough damage without legalising new narcotics.

    How would we handle the legalisation of marijuana? Look at the bumbling mess our politicians are making of the control of synthetic drugs. Do we need more fuck-ups like this?

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  88. stephieboy (2,455 comments) says:

    Jack 5,

    Its true that Ukrainian Nationalist elements collaborated with the Nazis and many serving as guards e. g in Death camps like Sobibor and Treblinka in Poland.
    But its worthwhile to remember also that the Russians had their own Nazi Collaborators,

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_collaborationism_with_the_Axis_powers

    Many Russians and Ukrainians had become weary of Stalin’s despotism and brutal rule.

    I think the Ukrainians are only to fully aware of this shameful aspect of their past and are eager to make amends to the Jewish population among them.

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  89. iMP (2,312 comments) says:

    re the Melbourne woman who groped a man’s bottom on a plane…

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/travel-troubles/9954434/Good-behaviour-order-after-in-flight-bum-grope

    “[the judge] released her on a A$500 (NZ$5434) three-month order…

    Gee, I thought the NZ dollar was doing rater better than that.

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  90. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    “…..Or vice versa. I can imagine cannabis legalised, but subject to similar controls as we currently have for alcohol. It’d be great for tourism, among other benefits….”

    Are you being stupid Mikey?

    Backpackers and freedom campers ect contribute fuckall INDIVIDUALY to NZ compared with other types of tourists. They eat noodles and old apples – and drink water. Not all of them but most of them. They are also more than likely to be the drug taking tourists.

    It will not be a good look when trying to attract middle and upper class tourists to have it known that NZ is a stoners paradise.

    Besides that – their health insurance that they arrive in NZ on will no doubt have anti drug clauses – meaning that the NZ taxpayer is left picking up the full cost if they have an accident while being on drugs.[ I read a piece a while ago about insurance companies wanting hospitals ect to drug and alcohol test policy holders while they are being treated - so they can be refused health care payouts. It's fair.]

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  91. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    UrbanNC,

    “there is little to no reliable contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus.”

    This statement is simply not true. Of course, you would need to define “reliable” but there is enough evidence that no serious scholar today disputes that Jesus lived.

    “If you are Christian; why you are not a Muslim? A Zoroastrian? A Daoist? A Buddhist? A Hindu? A Mormon? A Sikh? A Santerian? A Wiccan? A Jew? Do you honestly believe you would not be a follower of one of these other faiths if you had been bought up in it? So how can you honestly hold christian beliefs above or ahead those others?”

    I was not brought up as a Christian. I spent several years researching other religions, reading the Koran, the Hindu and Buddhist scriptures, visited a Mosque and two synagogues, even tried Wicca for a while.

    At the end of the day they were all interesting, but had deficiencies, especially when it came to the issue of evil, theodicy, which most religions do not have adequate answers for.

    But most importantly, none came close to the personal experience I have had of Jesus actually working in me and in my life.

    My faith was not handed to me. It came from a mix of intellectual research and personal experience.

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  92. meh (165 comments) says:

    Err there’s just been an avalanche on Everest… Where is DPF at the moment?!

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  93. stephieboy (2,455 comments) says:

    Rowan (1,727 comments) says:
    April 18th, 2014 at 2:34 pm

    Your vindictive and nasty tirade typical of your stock in trade.
    No surprises there.
    But one thing is for sure the decision certainly wont be putting the compensation claim back on the table. Guest’s revelations and Binnie’s report itself has made doubly sure of that fact.

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  94. nasska (10,834 comments) says:

    ….”My faith was not handed to me. It came from a mix of intellectual research and personal experience.”….

    More like an overdose of magic mushrooms. :)

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  95. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    Shawn, please indulge us with a description of the contemporary evidence for the existence of Jesus.

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  96. stephieboy (2,455 comments) says:

    meh,

    Avalanche on Everest. Wow.!

    its a very big mountain and hopefully Dave was not in the area.

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  97. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    As to the legitimate exercise of force by an imperial power or those opposing it and the connection to local elites in league with one or the other. As to connection to freedom of religion, freedom from religion and claimed respect for due higher authority and a supposedly historical incident about this issue.

    The Sanhedrin representing the Temple cult of Judea and the Pharisees would have both been acutely aware that the Hasmonean era (Alexander Jannaeus) had been a problem for both. And that the Essene promotion of a Messianic age revival could be exploited by zealots resorting to violence against Rome. Any public figure with associations with a national throne ancestry could soon attract nationalist support, regardless of their own position on the relative merits of a militant or pacifist renewal movement. And of course, as with many local elites that sided with the imperial cause against local terrorists, the word terrorist could be used to discredit any local dissident that posed a challenge to their authority.

    There are many examples over the years since 9/11 re how this can be exploited by locals in league with imperial power. Moslems advocating for democracy soon portrayed by military or royal rulers as Islamists associated with terrorists. This has posed a problem for the West in so far that its anti-terrorist actions were to be legitimate, and in no way inimical to an emergent democracy in Moslem nations. Yet despite this, local rulers have manipulated public opinion in the imperial West to

    1. obtain consent for their suppression of democracy.
    2. diminish support from the West for democratic transition.
    3. discredit those that threaten established power.

    Possibly it is the more Christian of the West that have bought into this local ME ruler tactic (and in both Israel as well as surrounding Arab nations). Israel and the surrounding Arab elites have common interest in there being a real politic understanding whereby democracy is secondary to security.

    But ultimately the matter is posed as one of the peoples security, whether it is better that someone who poses a threat to the imperial peace established for the national realm should die, so that the risk goes away. Inferring a problem with the legitimacy of the individual, as one of the religion/national people, is to make this choice more palatable to public opinion. (in Malaysia there was resort to inference that the political dissident was “immoral”/apart from the code of the religious group and or political/legal orthodoxy).

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  98. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    An avalanche on Everest … first the one going for a long journey during Passover week (eating up all his scroggin) will be reassuring that they have his back when mountaineering stuff like ropes are used but they can count on his mothers status for safety when the frozen water moves.

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  99. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    “Shawn, please indulge us”

    I have a better idea mikey. Go and study Biblical theology at varsity. Get an education, that way you won’t embarrass yourself every time you spout on this issue, as you did above.

    And I might engage in a civil debate on the matter, if I didn’t think you were a troll who has zero intentions of wanting contrary information and has zero intentions of seriously engaging with any information that does not square with your world view.

    Do some research if you really are interested. I assume you can use Google at least.

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  100. Elaycee (4,322 comments) says:

    @meh: Appears the avalanche was just below Camp 2 on the slopes of Mt Everest itself – well away from our intrepid ‘blogster’ and explorer…

    Nepal Tourism Ministry official Madhu Sudan Burlakoti says the avalanche hit the area just below Camp 2 at about midday NZ time.

    http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/climbers-feared-missing-after-avalanche-sweeps-mt-everest-5935747

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  101. Viking2 (11,220 comments) says:

    Worth a look.

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/jemimaskelley/things-you-did-not-know-about-new-zealand

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/simoncrerar/most-new-zealand-moments-ever

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  102. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    Shawn
    What limited info i have to hand does not suggest to me that there is any reliable contemporary evidence for the historicity of Jesus. I am however completely convinced that you were lying when you claimed there was more historical evidence for Jesus than for Julius Caesar.

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  103. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    V2
    A good list that. Not sure about No 37:
    ‘The New Zealand government even created a Minister for Lord of the Rings, to ensure the most money could be made from the films.’

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  104. meh (165 comments) says:

    Thanks elaycee the first report I saw had no details, below camp 2 is a fair off thankfully. Still not good for those caught in it!

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  105. publicwatchdog (2,225 comments) says:

    Seen this Kiwibloggers?

    http://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/editorial/299227/keys-tough-choice-over-collins

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

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  106. big bruv (13,454 comments) says:

    Paid your rates yet Penny?

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  107. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    “I am however completely convinced that you were lying when you claimed there was more historical evidence for Jesus than for Julius Caesar.”

    Except there is. As far as textual evidence goes, there is more for Jesus than Julius Caesar. Now of course you will redefine “evidence” to suit your argument, so the only person lying is you.

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  108. iMP (2,312 comments) says:

    Great read.

    I note with interest many of the key Labour political players mentioned were centered disproportionately in Chch:

    • Sir Geoffrey Palmer (St Albans)
    • PM Mike Moore (Chch North)
    • Hon David Caygill (St Albans)
    • Jim Anderton (Sydenham/New Labour/Alliance/Progressives)
    • Clayton Cosgrove (Waimak.)
    • Hon Ruth Dyson (Port Hils), et al.

    In later years, the vanguard of Labour’s left wing extremism also emanated from Chch:

    • Tim Barnett (Chch Central; first openly gay NZ MP, now Lab Secretary, Prostitution Reform)
    • Hon. Lianne Dalziel (now mayor), etc.

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  109. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    Go on Shawn. Show me the contemporary evidence for Jesus and compare that with the evidence for Caesar. Dare you.

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  110. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Shawn, textual evidence also says that Mohammed is a greater prophet than Jesus … .

    The question is whether text is the revisionist history of a sect/religion on a blog, or the mainstream news media current events report of the day.

    And the issue of evidence, in matters related to faith teachings as to connection between Creator and creation, is questionable.

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  111. NK (1,102 comments) says:

    Sh*t, I hope DPF is okay: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11240554

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  112. stigie (970 comments) says:

    Has the Auckland City Council sold your house yet Penny ?

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  113. infused (644 comments) says:

    Just saw about everest. Hope david is ok.

    And Penny, pay your rates or shut up.

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  114. UrbanNeocolonialist (206 comments) says:

    Good response ShawnLH, your approach is better founded than sticking to ‘default settings’ as most religious folks appear to, though obviously you can’t expect a non-Christian to find conclusions predicated on a personal desire for a convoluted antiquarian variant of monotheism to be true to have any merit.

    The answers you may see in Christian theodicy arises precisely because direct evidence for Jesus is so weak – oral transmission/chinese whispers and poor literacy gave early Christian theologians pre-Nicia the opportunity to manufacture, screen, edit and reconstruct gospels with deeper consideration and in ways most favourable to the narrative they were constructing (though still embarrassing that so few ‘divinely inspired’ gospels made the Biblical cut). The oblique and contradictory nature of the gospels open up scope for re-interpretation and theological sophistry that makes it possible to construct arguments to defend any political/ethical/moral position desired. As 1700 year of Church history have revoltingly shown.

    That reinterpretation-on-the-fly process is trickier for other more rigorously founded religions given immediate written records of their founders and prophets with less latitude for reinterpretation (though the goat that ate part of the Koran has probably kept thousands of theologians in business for 1500 years).

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  115. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    DPF will be fine. Camp 2 is a long way up from Base Camp, where he is headed.

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  116. NK (1,102 comments) says:

    Thanks Mike.

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  117. UglyTruth (4,550 comments) says:

    http://www.odt.co.nz/opinion/editorial/299227/keys-tough-choice-over-collins

    More disturbing is the attitude the minister is taking over a dinner with Oravida top official Stone Shi and a senior Chinese border control official.

    It was revealed yesterday that the dinner came after the company made a formal request to New Zealand ministers to intervene with the Chinese Government over import barriers.

    Oravida’s request was made in a letter last August to Trade Minister Tim Groser and Primary Industries Minister Nathan Guy, obtained by New Zealand First. Ms Collins’ husband, David Wong Tung, serves on Oravida’s board.

    The letter from Oravida managing director Julia Xu set out the company’s consternation over the Fonterra botulism scare and sought ”some thoughts as to what you may do to assist exporters such as us who have been greatly affected by this”.

    The letter urged New Zealand ministers to help Oravida through a difficult time by working with the Chinese Government to remove the new testing regime.

    Two months later, while on an official visit to China, Ms Collins dined in Beijing with Ms Xu, Mr Shi and a senior border official she still refuses to name.

    Prime Minister John Key has already warned Ms Collins about the Oravida situation, saying her last chance had arrived when she was forced to grudgingly issue an apology after seemingly misleading the media on the dinner.

    She is becoming increasingly defiant about the issue at a time Mr Key wants only good news to come out of the Government.

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  118. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    For Wellingtonians

    Wainui 30-30 MSP and HOBM 28-23 over Johnsonville and Petone losing 18-21 to Norths – showing the gap between Hardham Cup and Jubilee Cup is very small and that these valley teams would not be out of place in the lower grade.

    The polo necks slaughtered by the Rams who move into third and are now looking to guppy gut the Wellingtonians.

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  119. Rowan (1,946 comments) says:

    Stephie
    Again as usual no facts from you, The compensation claim is currently subject to judicial review as you well know, this latest decision has nothing to do with it and changes nothing as far as that’s concerned neither does Guest’s letter.
    As usual you use police and crown spin like ‘fundamentally floored’ and ‘factual errors’ but can substantiate none of it.
    Whether or not JC does the right thing and pays compensation or not doesn’t actually change anything about the truth of what happened and neither did Kents witch-hunt/hate campaign against Karam.
    Its interesting when JK was sued by Weir and Anderson back in 1997, he stuck to the facts and was able to substantiate what he said, Kent thought he might follow likewise but instead of facts used lies and ‘hate speech’.
    The difference Stephie is called the truth and the truth has and will continue to win at the end of the day.

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  120. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    It’s quite a close competition so far SPC. Only Wellington really uncompetitive so far.

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  121. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Yes and no. Wellington beat Upper Hutt last year and their loss today to Tawa, 45-22, was the closest game for Tawa so far. And Wellington’s win over Johnsonville was by more than the one by HOBM.

    Wellington were well beaten by Ories – but when they had some reps like Ardie Savea playing.

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  122. Southern Raider (1,697 comments) says:

    Reid must be well pleased with pro Russian’s in the Eastern Ukraine forcing all Jews to register including detailing all property they own.

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  123. stigie (970 comments) says:

    Typical Liarbore, trying to get mud to stick on Key and Collins, the same as they tried to do in 2008 and 2011.

    I tell you what….its not going to fucking work again in 2014. It is going to end in tears Uglytruth !!~

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  124. Steve (North Shore) (4,517 comments) says:

    And Penny, pay your rates or shut up.

    No,
    Pay your Rates AND shut up

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  125. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    Anyway SPC, off to the Hurricanes tonight?

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  126. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    kowtow,

    A belief system whose central tenet is ‘Love your neighbour” can only be abhorrant to someone full of hatred and bitterness.

    The issue here is that you are not describing the deity depicted in the Bible; a deity which murdered everyone in the entire world, fomented genocidal racial war, legalised slavery and prescribed death by stoning for the most trivial and victimless actions.

    By all means love your neighbour, but recognise that it is in spite of Yahweh and not because of it.

    And yes,Jesus Christ died for all mankind ,including the wat dabneys of this world

    That makes no sense whatsoever.

    You’re saying that Yahweh’s Jesus sock-puppet “died” (for a full weekend no less) in order to modify an entirely unjust situation – Original Sin – which Yahweh itself had instigated.

    Obviously there was no need for the story’s Jesus character or any other drama queen to commit temporary suicide, when all the deity had to do was retract Original Sin and acknowledge how unjust and abhorrent it was.
    Instead, we have the situation where the ludicrous and evil Original Sin doctrine remains, consigning everyone to the fiery pit bar a small minority of adults prepared to suck Yahweh’s cock and call it caviar.

    You are like a bunch of abused children telling us how wonderful Jimmy Saville is.

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  127. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    Well said wat. No doubt Shawn will come out again to tell us we can’t possibly understand these matters as we have not studied theology.

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  128. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    Goddammit! It’s started raiing. Just as I was thinking of going to the footie.

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  129. Reid (16,066 comments) says:

    Reid must be well pleased with pro Russian’s in the Eastern Ukraine forcing all Jews to register including detailing all property they own.

    Are they? Depends on whether they’re Khazars or not SR: i.e. these ones. Most of the oligarchs are and perhaps that’s why Putin’s doing it, not that I’d expect you to know that since you seem confused about who I’m talking about when I call them evil satanic thugs. Anyway all these rabbis agree with me so I’m quite comfortable with my position, notwithstanding uneducated fools who don’t even understand what it is I’ve been talking about.

    Perhaps Putin’s been reading this.

    BTW UT, you’ll probably be interested in this.

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  130. chiz (1,129 comments) says:

    ShawnLH:

    We have more textual and historical evidence for Jesus than for Julius Caesar.

    No. We have way evidence for Julius Caeser than for Jesus. We know that there used to a Roman Republic, then it changed into an Empire. If Julius didn’t exist then how did this happen and why do we have no records of who was actually involved. We also have evidence for him from contemporaries like Cicero.

    The only evidence for Jesus comes from a handful of documents written by his followers. There is widespread agreement by historians that there is no independent evidence for his existence. Christians, as Fletch did, often try to claim that there is evidence for him in, say, the writings of Josephus, Tacitus, Suetonius, Pliny the Younger etc but none of those claims stands up to scrutiny. In each case the quote is either a Christian forgery, or a quote from uncredited Christian sources, or is a response to Christians.

    Unfortunately Christians are never taught this. The Josephus claim was debunked centuries ago and yet Christians are still being taught it.

    Of course, you would need to define “reliable” but there is enough evidence that no serious scholar today disputes that Jesus lived.

    Which Jesus? The Jesus of the Bible, or some guy who inspired it? There may possibly have been a Jesus, a teacher, a revolutionary or maybe a conman, but the Jesus of the Bible is an invention based on him. The stories have been modified and exaggerated so much that the Jesus of the Bible is, to all intents and purposes, a different purpose. The obvious analogy is with Robin Hood, who may, possible have been based on a real person – an Earl – but just because that Earl existed and Robin Hood is based on him it doesn’t mean that Robin Hood existed.

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  131. Andrew (81 comments) says:

    Crap! Did anyone see this? http://nzh.tw/11240554

    Sounds like it might be higher than the base camp, so hopefully DPF is okay.

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  132. stigie (970 comments) says:

    Put your feet up and watch it on the tele i suggest Mikey !

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  133. chiz (1,129 comments) says:

    mikenmild:

    I am however completely convinced that you were lying when you claimed there was more historical evidence for Jesus than for Julius Caesar.

    While what he was saying is false, it isn’t because Lee was lying. He really did believe that. This claim – that there is more historical evidence for Jesus than there is Julius Caesar – is quite a common one among apologists. I’ve encountered it frequently – including from two other Otago Theology graduates. As far as I can tell people are being taught this – either at Sunday school, or ,maybe, at university.

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  134. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    chiz
    Personally I feel it is likely that Jesus existed: the fables about him probably have a basis in fact. But that’s all; it’s purely a matter of faith as to whether someone believes that he was the son of a god, performed miracles, etc.
    And I shouldn’t have called him a liar, even though five minutes’ research would expose that old canard. I accept he really does believe the things he says, even when there’s absolutely no evidence for them.

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  135. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    stigie
    It’s stopped raining;so I think we’ll take the plunge. I’m feeling better about the Hurricanes now I know Hammett is going at the end of the season.

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  136. nasska (10,834 comments) says:

    ….”I accept he really does believe the things he says, even when there’s absolutely no evidence for them.”….

    He can believe what he likes Mike but if he wants to crap over every thread with his evangelical Godrubbish then he can hardly expect not to be called out on his statements.

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  137. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    Yeah, I’ll call him out – like on the Julius Caesar bullshit. I accept he genuinely believes the bullshit though and I’m sorry I called him a liar. If he continues to maintain bullshit after having the truth pointed out – then he will be a liar.

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  138. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    Manuscript Evidence for Ancient Writings

    Author Written Earliest Copy Time Span #Mns

    Caesar 100-44 B.C. 900 A.D. 1,000 yrs 10

    Plato 427-347 B.C. 900 A.D. 1,200 yrs 7

    Thucydides 460-400 B.C. 900 A.D. 1,300 yrs 8

    Tacitus 100 A.D. 1100 A.D. 1,000 yrs 20

    Suetonius 75-160 A.D. 950 A.D. 800 yrs 8

    Homer (Iliad) 900 B.C. 400 B.C. 500 yrs 643

    New Testament 40-100 A.D. 125 A.D. 25-50 yrs 24,000

    http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html

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  139. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    Well, I don’t know what that’s tryiong to prove. Are they the oldest dated fragements of the respective writings?

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  140. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Reid, you have been handed your head on your Khazar ramblings, and your persistence with it demonstrates how facts inconvenient to your world view are ignored/misrepresented. Can your world view cannot assimilate facts and endure change or do you just like to dissemble about Jews?

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  141. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    “but if he wants to crap over every thread with his evangelical Godrubbish”

    I. I’m not an evangelical.

    2. I am almost always responding to other people when I do bring the issue up, mostly atheist trolls looking for a fight.

    3. If your going to crap over every comment made by a Christian you should expect to be called out.

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  142. nasska (10,834 comments) says:

    ….”I. I’m not an evangelical. “….

    Notwithstanding the garbage at 8.11 this morning?

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  143. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    My point Mikey is that we have more early textual evidence of the NT (and thus, though you will disagree for Jesus) compared to other historical figures.

    And of course you claimed that we had none outside the Bible. That was proven false. So if your going to make claims that are based on ignorance, that would have taken only five minutes on Google to check, you should expect to be called out on them, which you were.

    Quid pro quo. Yes?

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  144. Reid (16,066 comments) says:

    SPC it’s not just my worldview it’s shared by many. The last time it was discussed you guys just brayed what you wanted to without listening to a word I said.

    To demonstrate, I bet none of you can reiterate what my position is. It’s pretty simple, you can sum it up in a few sentences. But I bet you can’t even do that.

    I also bet you don’t even read anything in those links, proving you don’t want to know. Which is a shame, because they say things like:

    Jerusalem greeted Herzl appropriately and, excommunicated and ostracized, he was compelled to sit alone during his entire stay in Jerusalem. This was after a strict warning was issued by the rabbi of Jerusalem, Rabbi Shmuel Salant, “that no one should draw near to him or give him a place in the Jewish area of Jerusalem.” (Mara D‟ara Yisroel v. 2 p. 45)
    Rabbi Yosef Meir Weiss,Rebbe of Spinka, Hungary (1838-1909)

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  145. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    “Notwithstanding the garbage at 8.11 this morning?”

    It’s Easter. Get over it. This is not an atheist blog. And no, the quote does not make me an evangelical, though I would be happy to be thought of as one. I’m just not.

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  146. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    So Shawn, are you going to backtrack on your core claim: that there is more direct evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for Julius Caesar?

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  147. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    I said textual evidence Mikey, look at my first comment on that. Which I have just backed up. Are you going to backtrack from your claim that there was none outside the Bible?

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  148. Reid (16,066 comments) says:

    So Shawn, are you going to backtrack on your core claim: that there is more direct evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for Julius Caesar?

    Typical tangential diversion by people who don’t understand the subject and don’t want to and who hallucinate that if only their tangent gets addressed once and for all, that this will mean something terribly significant about the wider question, thus demonstrating their own tiny understanding of it.

    It always happens with the ignorant especially those who have no wish to correct that state of their mind. Absolute and utter fascination with something that’s entirely peripheral.

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  149. nasska (10,834 comments) says:

    ….”Absolute and utter fascination with something that’s entirely peripheral.”…..

    You’re deflecting…..Mike’s on to something here. :)

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  150. publicwatchdog (2,225 comments) says:

    Sorry whining GUTLESS / ANONYMOUS Kiwibloggers – I will neither pay Auckland Council rates (when they are UNLAWFULLY failing to comply with the Public Records Act 2005 or Local Government Act 2002) nor ‘shut up’.

    Sorry that you can’t ‘handle the jandal’ when it comes the FACTS or my considered opinions?

    I anticipate that you’ll really LOVE this post!

    NOT.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________________

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA1404/S00334/select-committees-for-14-april-to-17-april-2014.htm

    Finance and Expenditure

    The committee met on 16 April when it further considered the 2012/13 financial review of the Earthquake Commission, and the petitions of Deidre Kent and 877 others and of Penelope Bright and 13 others.

    ………………………………..

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/presented/petitions/50DBHOH_PET3196_1/petition-of-penelope-mary-bright-and-13-others-that-the

    Petition of Penelope Mary Bright and 13 others

    That the House conduct an urgent inquiry into why New Zealand Auditor-General Lyn Provost did not disclose that she was a shareholder in Sky City Entertainment Group Ltd at the time she declined to conduct an urgent investigation into the failure of the Organised and Financial Crime Agency of New Zealand to carry out ‘due diligence’ on the increased risk of money-laundering arising from the New Zealand International Convention Centre (Bill) 2013.

    Petition number: 2011/101
    Presented by: Denis O’Rourke
    Date presented: 12 March 2014
    Referred to: Finance and Expenditure Committee
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________

    New Zealand – ‘perceived to be the least corrupt country in the world’ (along with Denmark, according to Transparency International’s 2013 Corruption Perception Index).

    Damn shame about New Zealand’s corruption REALITY?

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

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  151. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Reid (15,508 comments) says:
    April 4th, 2014 at 10:10 pm
    “et al, the problem for the DNA analysis is identifying the Khazar DNA to see what it is of the non ME y chromosome DNA and also what of the non ME mitochondrial DNA is from that source amongst Ashkenazi Jews.”

    SGA, why does it matter whether or not Askhenazi’s are Khazars? What’s the critical nature of that point?

    It’s just I’ve always understood Khazars are Ashkenazis but I’ve never bothered to find out what it would mean if it turned out Ashkenazis are different from Khazars. I’ve just assumed they were and that Shephardics were the tribe of Judah. So what happens to that arrangement if Khazars aren’t Ashkenazis?
    ——————————————

    You admitted that you had not found proof that Ashkenazi Jews are Khazars yet you keep repeating that story anyhow … . Always understood … meaning it was a convenient line for you to use, whether true or not …

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  152. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    Shawn
    This is what you said:
    ‘We have more textual and historical evidence for Jesus than for Julius Caesar.’
    Want to back off from that claim just a little?

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  153. SGA (931 comments) says:

    ShawnLH at 6:25 pm

    “Notwithstanding the garbage at 8.11 this morning?”
    It’s Easter. Get over it.

    First post April 10th as well – “The Second Coming” – odd for someone who says “I am almost always responding to other people when I do bring the issue up, mostly atheist trolls looking for a fight”.

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  154. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    No Mike, because I just backed that up. Textual evidence is historical evidence.

    Now are you going to back up from your claim there was none at all outside the Bible?

    Come on Mikey, you can’t have it both ways.

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  155. big bruv (13,454 comments) says:

    Penny

    “I will neither pay Auckland Council rates (when they are UNLAWFULLY failing to comply with the Public Records Act 2005 or Local Government Act 2002) nor ‘shut up’.”

    OK, let me know when the Auction is on, I do want to be there to see your house sold.

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  156. chiz (1,129 comments) says:

    Except Shawn, as I pointed out before – there is no nonchristian evidence for Jesus outside the bible. All those quotes that people keep bringing up in Josephus, or Tacitus etc all turn out to have christian origins.

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  157. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    “First post April 10th as well – “The Second Coming” ”

    It’s a poem from Yeats. It’s about the tendency of human societies to unwind and descend into anarchy and/or war.

    You can read religion into it if you want, but I wasn’t.

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  158. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    There is a distinction between (external) textual support for the New Testament writings (their existence at the time) and text demonstrating the historical veracity of the life of someone called Yeshua whose life events were the same as that of the character in the gospel story.

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  159. mikenmild (11,231 comments) says:

    Quite right chiz, whereas we have an abundance of direct evidence for the existence of Juliues Caesar.

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  160. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    “All those quotes that people keep bringing up in Josephus, or Tacitus etc all turn out to have christian origins.”

    Christian origins does not mean that they are Biblical origins. They might be, they just as easily might be from Christian sources from the early church, which had the witness of the disciples for Jesus long before the NT was written.

    Either way, the claim there is no evidence outside the Bible is clearly wrong. The community Jesus founded, the church, existed before the writing of the NT.

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  161. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    One has to wonder whether the church would have allowed an independent historical account to survive – as the religious purpose was to pose a Christ of faith, not to promote a man or any relative into royal leadership over the Jews. As to the particular family, privacy would have been a survival instinct in the days of empire and nationalist division.

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  162. Reid (16,066 comments) says:

    You admitted that you had not found proof that Ashkenazi Jews are Khazars yet you keep repeating that story anyhow

    Read that first link in my 5.05 SPC, which details a study by a Jewish geneticist that says exactly what I’ve been saying.

    But the genetics aren’t and never have been my main argument anyway. It’s a side issue. My main argument is and always has been that you can tell they’re anti-Jewish by their own actions. For example by the way the Israeli leadership constantly acts in ways that make that country an international pariah, when they don’t have to act that way in order to keep themselves safe. For example. There are many other examples and not just those in Israel but also those in the US and in the UK. For example, Murdoch’s one. Look at the way his media outlets lied in unison about the WMDs in Iraq. Think that was good for the UK? It was bloody good for Israel, got rid of its public enemy #2. But not at all good for the UK, nor for the US, who together paid for the whole thing, in order to do Israel’s bidding. For example.

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  163. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    reid, I understand the argument, but any nationalist can resort to actions that are counter-productive, that does not mean they are not loyal patriots, just misguided. So it’s a weak argument that you make

    Note, some claim that conspiracy theorists are disinformation agents – they distract people from serious political engagement and activism and can assist in marginalising dissent against established power.

    Claiming that disinformation about WMDs was Israel’ doing, is that to let the UK and US governments off the hook, as Israel made them do it … waaah.

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  164. stigie (970 comments) says:

    Are you thinking about putting a bid in for Penny’s house there Bruv ?

    I would be extremely careful….you never know what you might find !~

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  165. chiz (1,129 comments) says:

    ShawnLH:

    Christian origins does not mean that they are Biblical origins.

    It means that all the evidence for Jesus comes from people who believed in him, even though most of them had never met him and only knew of him from documents written and modified by other christians. Ergo, there is no independent evidence for Jesus.

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  166. nasska (10,834 comments) says:

    ….”you never know what you might find”….

    At one stage she had six cats stigie…..there should be plenty to find. :)

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  167. UrbanNeocolonialist (206 comments) says:

    milkenmaid; is more likely that any Jesus figures active in Judea at the time would be a hard line Jewish fundamentalists, but that would have been an unpopular story impossibly to sell to the rest of the Empire, and would have needed a lot of amendment (care of Saul of Tarsus the great and promoter and traveller who never even met Jesus)

    Christianity, grew into a force not in Israel, but in the necessarily religiously permissive (can’t kill all non-believers in occupied lands) wealthier parts of the Roman Empire where it seems there was an effective religious vacuum created by the recent conquering introduction and then declining credibility of the pantheistic Roman religion. The Caesar’s were having themselves declared gods – without seeming consequence, and the priestly hierarchy must have appeared very cynical/corrupt as a result. This was fertile ground for new cults.

    Probably also a big factor was the massive socio-economic and political change bought about by the Pax Romania away from the edges of the empire, in which constant warfare abated, people were safer and due to trade and specialisation much wealthier, and the violent and nasty gods/religions (like monster-Yaweh, capricious Roman deities etc) were less appealing. A message of a friendly, paternalistic deity that was slightly less misogynistic and promised an assuredly happy afterlife (a lovely carrot before they later became the dominant religion and needed to refine the stick of hell) probably mostly hadn’t been heard before and sold well.

    The early missionaries/stalwarts of Christianity were likely partly devout, and partly conmen looking for a way to support themselves and gain wealth/status when they had no possessions or other means of income.

    The Roman Empire remained a powerful force for another 300 years allowing the upstart Christianity to become pervasive, but if it hadn’t been Christianity, then some other similar monotheistic upstart religion would have capitalised on the situation at around the same time.

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  168. Nostradamus (3,079 comments) says:

    Penny Not-so:

    Sorry whining GUTLESS / ANONYMOUS Kiwibloggers – I will neither pay Auckland Council rates (when they are UNLAWFULLY failing to comply with the Public Records Act 2005 or Local Government Act 2002) nor ‘shut up’

    You keep alleging that Auckland Council isn’t complying with section 17(1) of the Public Records Act 2005.

    Section 17(1) states:

    Every public office and local authority must create and maintain full and accurate records of its affairs, in accordance with normal, prudent business practice, including the records of any matter that is contracted out to an independent contractor.

    Please provide proof (to an evidential standard that would be accepted in a court of law) that Auckland Council is failing to create and maintain full and accurate records of its affairs in accordance with normal, prudent business practice. I very much doubt you have any proof.

    Please advise what Auckland Council services (including, for example, rubbish collection) you aren’t using. You wouldn’t want to be ridiculed as a freeloading hypocrite, would you?

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  169. cha (3,830 comments) says:

    When he’s not rattling his sabre and despite the fact that there’s no parliamentary oversight of secret services Vladimir’s assuring the world that his state apparatus would never spy on the people.

    http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-putin-ukraine-20140417,0,469177.story#axzz2z9Lpbo7l

    http://www.smh.com.au/world/does-russia-spy-on-millions-edward-snowden-asks-vladimir-putin-on-live-tv-20140418-zqw5o.html

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  170. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    Chiz,

    “It means that all the evidence for Jesus comes from people who believed in him, even though most of them had never met him and only knew of him from documents written and modified by other christians. Ergo, there is no independent evidence for Jesus.”

    Wrong. The NT was not formed for some time after Jesus’ life. The early Christians had no documents (apart from the OT). They had, first, the eyewitness of the Apostles, who passed on what they had personally witnessed to the first Church leaders.

    So we do have evidence prior to Scripture. We have the evidence of the community Jesus founded, again, prior to the writing of the NT.

    Now the existence of that community may not rate as evidence to you, but the existence of that community, and the testimony passed down from the disciples/Apostles, is extra-Biblical evidence.

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  171. ShawnLH (4,330 comments) says:

    “When he’s not rattling his sabre and despite the fact that there’s no parliamentary oversight of secret services Vladimir’s assuring the world that his state apparatus would never spy on the people.”

    Putin must be dreaming if he thinks anyone outside of Russia is going to take that claim seriously.

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  172. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    Urban Neo #

    The Roman Empire remained a powerful force for another 300 years allowing the upstart Christianity to become pervasive, but if it hadn’t been Christianity, then some other similar monotheistic upstart religion would have capitalised on the situation at around the same time.

    Hardly. But anyway,

    “…….Pantheon

    This very famous structure was established around the time of Christ, and was originally a temple to the various pagan gods. It was pretty clever how they dealt with religious pluralism back then. When the ancient Romans conquered a people, instead of telling them to stop worshipping their god, they simply added it to their collection of deities.

    As the name suggests, this was a place of ‘all gods’ or ‘many gods’. Everyone could be happy, as an image of their particular god was added to the Pantheon. As long as the Roman ruler had pride of place in worship, they could keep their gods. But when Jesus Christ came on the scene, things became real messy.

    He did not proclaim himself as just another god, but as the One True and Only God. And the early Christians saw him as Lord exclusively. That meant that the other gods, and emperor worship, were just not on. That of course was a major threat to the powers that be at the time.

    To proclaim Jesus as Lord was to say that the Emperor was not. That was treasonous, and of course plenty of Christians paid the price as a result. This was not just religious disloyalty, but more importantly, political disloyalty, and a threat to the whole Roman Empire.

    So believers back then had to make a very clear choice as to who they would serve as Lord. Those who did not bow to Caesar had to pay the ultimate price – and many did. Of course later, when Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity around 312, the scene slowly turned around, and by the 7th century the Pantheon was turned into a Christian church…..”

    http://billmuehlenberg.com/2014/04/17/rome-caesar-christ-and-eternity/

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  173. Harriet (4,614 comments) says:

    “……Quite right chiz, whereas we have an abundance of direct evidence for the existence of Juliues Caesar….”

    And for David Bain – so what’s your point?

    BTW : Last time I looked the Bible was explaining wisdom and Truth – not science.

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  174. nasska (10,834 comments) says:

    ….”the scene slowly turned around, and by the 7th century the Pantheon was turned into a Christian church”….

    So that’s when the rot set in. :)

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  175. chiz (1,129 comments) says:

    ShawnLH:

    They had, first, the eyewitness of the Apostles, who passed on what they had personally witnessed to the first Church leaders. So we do have evidence prior to Scripture. We have the evidence of the community Jesus founded, again, prior to the writing of the NT.

    Again, no. That there was a community of christians before the NT isn’t in doubt. That they believed various things about Jesus isn’t in doubt either. However just because a bunch of people believe that Jesus existed and their founders knew him doesn’t mean this is actually the case. Some of their stories were made up, or modified. As I pointed out earlier its important to distinguish between the Jesus of the Bible, and any actual Jesus who may have been an inspiration for the bible.

    And in any case this is all irrelevant. The original point remains – there is non-christian evidence for Jesus.

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  176. nasska (10,834 comments) says:

    Joe goes to the doctor and says to him…
    “Doc, my arm is killing me but I don’t know what I did to it.”
    The doctor jumps up from his chair and hands Joe a specimen cup.
    “Pee in this cup” The doctor says
    Joe pees in the cup and gives it to the doctor.
    “We get to try out my new machine.” Says the doc.
    He then takes Joe’s pee and dumps it into the big machine in the corner of the office. The machine makes a few noises and after about 3 seconds, it spits out a piece of paper. The doctor picks up the paper and reads it…
    “You have tennis elbow.”
    “How can that hunk of junk tell I have tennis elbow just from a cup of my pee?” Joe asks.
    “This “hunk of junk” is a state of the art machine and can tell what is wrong with a person from a stubbed toe to terminal cancer.” The doc replied. “Come back in 2 weeks with another specimen and we will see how you are doing.”
    2 weeks go by and Joe has decided he wants to fuck with the doctor. He gets his wife to pee in the cup, he gets his daughter to pee in the cup, he puts some oil from his car in the cup, he even jerks off in the cup. He takes this lovely mixture to the doctor with him to the doctor. When he walks into the office, the doctor is reading the paper.
    “Did you bring your sample Joe?”
    “Yep, I sure did Doc.” Joe replies.
    “Go ahaead and dump it in then.”
    Joe dumps the sample into the machine and immediately the machine starts jerking and coughing. After about 2 minutes, the machine spits out a long piece of paper which the doctor quickly picks up and reads to himself.
    “Uhuh…mmhum…I see…”
    “So Doc, what does your state of the art machine say now?” Joe snickered.
    “Well,” replied the doctor “It says here your daughter’s pregnant, your wife’s cheating on you, your car needs a new transmission and if you’d quit jerking off so much you’d probably get rid of that tennis elbow.”

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  177. Reid (16,066 comments) says:

    Claiming that disinformation about WMDs was Israel’ doing

    It’s not just for those reasons SPC that US and UK zionists do it, they have other reasons such as many of them make lots of money from war and remember what I’ve always said on this subject, the zionists, whether they are in Israel, the US, the UK, Australia or anywhere else, are not acting in Israel’s best interests, they’re doing what they’re doing in order to set her up in order to eventually destroy her before the eyes of the world.

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  178. Viking2 (11,220 comments) says:

    This morning on the motorway,
    I looked over to my right and there was a
    Woman In a brand new VW Golf !!
    Doing 1120kph

    With her face up next to her
    Rear view mirror Putting on her eyeliner!
    I looked away

    For a couple seconds

    And when I looked back she was
    Halfway over in my lane,
    Still working on that makeup.

    As a man,

    I don’t scare easily..

    But she scared me so much I dropped
    My electric shaver,

    Which knocked The meat pie
    out of my other hand.

    In all the confusion of trying
    To straighten out the car

    Using my knees against The steering wheel,

    It knocked my Mobile phone away from my ear

    Which fell into the coffee between my legs,

    Which splashed and burned “Big Jim and the Twins”,

    Ruined the phone, soaked my trousers and disconnected an important call.

    BLOODY Women Drivers!!

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  179. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    Those zionists make me so angry, Reid.

    Ooh, they really do!

    Thankfully you’re on the case, exposing their shenanigans.

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  180. SPC (5,472 comments) says:

    Harriet, did Jesus portray himself as not “just another god, but as the One True and Only God”

    Apparently the faith the church of Simon Peter was built on was that he was son of God.

    “the early Christians saw him as Lord exclusively. That meant that the other gods, and emperor worship, were just not on. That of course was a major threat to the powers that be at the time.To proclaim Jesus as Lord was to say that the Emperor was not. That was treasonous, and of course plenty of Christians paid the price as a result. This was not just religious disloyalty, but more importantly, political disloyalty, and a threat to the whole Roman Empire.”

    The problem was more the fact that Octavius had styled himself son of a god (in reference to the Senate mocking the dead Julius Caesar as a god, one they made by killing him). Thus what was more important being adopted son of Julius, as Octavius was, or being seen as adopted by God. At the time the adopted son of Octavius, Tiberius, was on the Roman throne.

    The development at Rome whereby Octavius went from son of a god to a living god may have played apart in Christian theology when the one once called son of God became part of the God trinity as God the Son (a great way to expel Jews from the now Gentile dominated church).

    The problem between Christians and Rome, was that God was God and not a man (who was Emperor of Rome).

    If you go back to context, Simon Peter declares Jesus to be son of God at the place of a cult centre to the emperor of Rome being a god. Do not presume that the church of Simon Peter prevailed at Rome, it was a draw.

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  181. nasska (10,834 comments) says:

    A man, his wife, and his mother-in-law go on holiday to the Holy Land. While they are there the mother-in-law dies.

    The local undertaker tell this guy, “You can have her shipped home for $20,000, or you can bury her here in the Holy Land for $1000.”
    The man thinks for a minute, and tells the undertaker to packer up and ship her home. The undertaker asked, “Why?” Why would you spend $20,000 to ship your mother-in-law home, when it would be wonderful to spend only $1000?”.

    The man replied, “A guy died here 2000 years ago, he was buried and three days later he rose from the dead. I just can’t take that chance.”

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  182. publicwatchdog (2,225 comments) says:

    Here you go ‘Nostradumbass’?

    (Meant of course in a caring way – sorry – couldn’t resist it ;)

    You want EVIDENCE of Auckland Council’s lack of compliance with the Public Records Act 2005?

    Try this:

    (It’s a High Court document.)

    http://www.occupyaucklandvsaucklandcouncilappeal.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/OCCUPY-AUCKLAND-APPEAL-APPLICATION-BY-APPELLANT-BRIGHT-TO-ADDUCE-NEW-EVIDENCE-pdf.pdf

    (Item 6

    “6. NEW EVIDENCE in the form of a Local Government Official Information Act reply from Auckland Council dated 21 November 2011, from Darryl Griffin, which confirms the lack of transparency in the spending of public monies by Auckland Council, in refusing to make available for public scrutiny the ‘devilish detail’ ie: the names, the scope, term and value of 5000 contracts related to 12,500 suppliers contracted to Auckland CQuncil, on the basis that ‘To collate and publish these would be a major exercise logistically and cost~wise’.

    Although this evidence was available, I did not think to use it because I hadn’t given due consideration to its significance in helping to prove how the Auckland Council was working in the interests of providing work to private business interests, yet not providing transparency in relation to the spending of citizens and ratepayers monies. ”

    BTW – are you aware of this following STANDARD, compliance with which under the Public Records Act 2005 is supposed to have been a mandatory requirement since July 2010?

    http://archives.govt.nz/sites/default/files/S7_Create_and_Maintain_Recordkeeping_Standard.pdf

    Or – is it ok with you that Auckland Council is effectively ABOVE THE LAW and nobody should try to hold them accountable?

    PS: Here are the steps I took to try and get a law change to fix the problem, and get some genuine TRANSPARENCY regarding local government rates spending.

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz

    Unlike Ernst and Young – whose 19 page ‘review’ on Auckland Mayor Len Brown’s ‘conduct’ cost over $250,000, my over 50 page submission to the Local Government and Environment Select Committee cost nobody anything.

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    PPS: Like to provide some evidence of what YOU have done lately, in the public interest?

    I don’t expect your reply to take you very long ……. :)

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  183. Nostradamus (3,079 comments) says:

    Here you go ‘Nostradumbass’?

    (Meant of course in a caring way – sorry – couldn’t resist it ;)

    Penny Fuckwit (meant of course in a caring way – sorry – couldn’t resist it)

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  184. nasska (10,834 comments) says:

    Looks like DPF is well in the clear.

    ….”An avalanche has swept the slopes of Mount Everest along a route used to ascend the world’s highest peak, killing at least six Nepalese guides and leaving nine more missing, officials said.

    The Sherpa guides had gone early in the morning to fix the ropes for hundreds of climbers when the avalanche hit them just below Camp 2 around 6:30am, said Nepal Tourism Ministry official Krishna Lamsal, speaking from the base camp and monitoring the rescue efforts.”……

    Ref: http://tvnz.co.nz/world-news/least-six-sherpas-killed-in-avalanche-mt-everest-5935747

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  185. Nostradamus (3,079 comments) says:

    Penny Not-so:

    PPS: Like to provide some evidence of what YOU have done lately, in the public interest?

    I don’t expect your reply to take you very long ……. :)

    Yes, that’s easy, I’ve paid my local government rates. And you’re right – it didn’t take me very long to reply, did it?

    Oh, and as for that Archives NZ document you cited, here’s the relevant extract:

    3.3 Normal, Prudent Business Practice

    In the context of the Public Records Act 2005, the phrase ‘normal, prudent business practice’ appears in s17(1) where it is part of the requirement on public offices and local authorities to create and maintain full and accurate records of their affairs.

    This standard will establish the minimum requirements for developing a recordkeeping framework for the creation and maintenance of records as part of ‘normal, prudent business practice’. Establishing how these principles are applied depends on an organisation’s functions. An organisation’s functions will be defined by an evaluation of core business activities and may be stated in any enabling legislation or foundation documentation.

    The standard requires that the public office and local authority create and maintain records of their affairs to allow them to meet their statutory, contractual and accountability obligations both for the present, and as an on-going entity. It does not mean that every work-related conversation or act of correspondence must be identified, recorded and retained. It is the records which document a transaction, business action or business decision that must be identified, captured and maintained as evidence of the business process or outcome. Not every record must be retained. General Disposal Authorities (GDAs) allow routine disposal of records of short-term value or records that do not need to be maintained at all.

    Oh dear – talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

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  186. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    Like to provide some evidence of what YOU have done lately, in the public interest?

    Voted against socialist/fascist cunts like you, love.

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  187. Steve (North Shore) (4,517 comments) says:

    at 8.30 Penny is pretending that she is not pissed
    chatting with a bottle of leonardo de brown.
    Ffs where is Len? nothing on the interwebby, easter show is free, where is the corksoaker

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  188. cha (3,830 comments) says:

    More details on the reported anti-semitic flyer.

    http://www.vox.com/2014/4/17/5624696/anti-semitic-flier-ukraine

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  189. publicwatchdog (2,225 comments) says:

    Thank you proving that ‘NostraDUMBASS’ is indeed applicable.

    errrr…. the ‘devilish detail’ that I want to see, is not every word of every contract, but the NAMES of the consultants/contractors/ the SCOPE of the contracts/ the TERM of the contracts and the VALUE of the contracts.

    Oh dear – talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

    Or is it that YOU ‘NostraDUMBASS’ are one of those with YOUR snout in the public trough?

    That’s why YOU don’t support citizens and ratepayers LAWFUL rights to transparency under the Public Records Act 2005 – because YOU might be caught out?

    Is that why ‘NostraDUMBASS’ – you don’t put your own name to your posts?

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________

    PS: Seen this?

    (www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz)

    ” 5) SUBMISSION TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT 2002 AMENDMENT BILL

    Submission I subsequently made to the Local Government Act 2002 Amendment Bill on this and related matters:

    http://www.parliament.nz/en-nz/pb/sc/documents/evidence/49SCLGE_EVI_00DBHOH_BILL9872_1_A55792/penny-bright
    “On 9 March 2009, I submitted evidence to this same Local and Environment Select Committee, in support of Petition 2008/002:

    which:

    “Respectfully request(ed) that the House urgently amend the Local Government Act 2002 to make it a mandatory requirement to ensure councils and council-controlled organisations are open to public scrutiny by using annual reports to record contracts issued to the private sector for goods, services and people as a means of providing openness and accountability in council operations; and to help ensure prudent stewardship of citizen and ratepayer resources.”

    MY CONSIDERED RECOMMENDATION AS TO THE NECESSARY LEGISLATIVE CHANGE:

    Publishing details of contracts issued in Council Annual Reports is not intended to add thousands of pages, containing every word written for every contract issued

    All that is required is:

    a) The name(s) of the contracting company /contractor.
    b) The $ value of the contract.
    c) The term (length) of the contract.
    d) The scope of the contract.

    eg: DOG CONTROL

    a) Joe Bloggs Dog Control Services Ltd.
    b) $350,000
    c) 2008 – 2010
    d) Enforcement of Dog Control Bylaw 123 for Auckland City Council (ward(s) covered)
    e) CONTRACT NUMBER ACC 33333

    http://www.parliament.nz/resource/0000075765

    “It is our view that the issues raised by the petitioner are best dealt with as part of a comprehensive review and we recommend that the Minister consider the issues raised in this petition. ..”

    Unfortunately – this Bill does not fix this problem.
    The public still don’t know exactly where our rates are being spent.
    This is NOT transparent.

    It seems ridiculous that the public can scrutinise thousands of pages detailing Ministerial spending on credit cards – but the public are not provided with the above-mentioned ‘devilish’ detail which would clearly show where BILLION$ of residents and ratepayers public monies are being spent on private contractors.

    Please amend this Bill to do so. ”
    _________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

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  190. nasska (10,834 comments) says:

    Brick wall….meet Nostradamus. :)

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  191. publicwatchdog (2,225 comments) says:

    Oh dear – wat ever – you must be SO disappointed that nearly 12,000 people voted for me, campaigning against CORRUPT CORPORATE CONTROL of the Auckland region?

    And what POLLS predicted THAT?

    Kind regards

    Penny Bright

    http://www.pennybright4mayor.org.nz

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  192. publicwatchdog (2,225 comments) says:

    Are you ‘Brick wall’ as well as ‘nasska’?

    ;)

    Having a LOVELY evening?

    I am ……

    Kind regards,

    Her Warship

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  193. Nostradamus (3,079 comments) says:

    Indeed Nasska!

    Now, if Penny Not-So genuinely believed that Auckland Council is acting unlawfully, then she could do a McCready on them. But, no, she thinks the correct approach is to unlawfully refuse to pay rates. I wonder how many of those 12,000 people who supposedly voted “for” Penny fulfil their lawful duty and pay their rates.

    And Penny, while I’ve got your attention, you conveniently forgot to answer my other question. Please advise whether you’ve opted out of certain services provided by Auckland Council, and funded by other ratepayers, such as rubbish collection services. You wouldn’t want to be ridiculed as a freeloading hypocrite, would you?

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  194. Reid (16,066 comments) says:

    This Terrified Diver Prepares To Die As A Predator Approaches, When Suddenly…

    http://rense.com/general96/diver.html

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  195. Reid (16,066 comments) says:

    “It no longer matters who sits in the White House,” former Goldman Sachs managing director Nomi Prins writes in her new book “All the Presidents’ Bankers: The Hidden Alliances That Drive American Power.” “Presidents no longer even try to garner banker support for population-friendly policies, and bankers operate oblivious to the needs of national economies. There is no counterbalance to their power.”

    http://www.salon.com/2014/04/15/we_are_in_great_danger_ex_banker_details_how_mega_banks_destroyed_america/

    If you’ve never read Confessions of an Economic Hitman, you should. Why some people can’t seem to be able to bring themselves to recognise the things which that book and this article and many others like them say, as the actual in your face reality, is IMO, because said people are completely mental.

    And this is what they do.

    http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/04/17/358940/us-policies-on-russia-to-herald-wwiii/

    And this is why.

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  196. publicwatchdog (2,225 comments) says:

    errr… NostraDUMBASS – I told electors in both the 2010 and 2013 Auckland Mayoral elections that I was refusing to pay rates and why that was the case.

    Another thing you may have missed is the petition I initiated, signed by 40 Water Pressure Group members, which resulted in a Local Government and Environment Select Committee inquiry declaring that Metrowater ‘Charitable payments’ were unacceptable?

    (Auckland City Council had planned to take $320 million from Auckland City Council citizens and ratepayers over 10 years in the form of ‘Charitable payments’ from Metrowater increased charges for water and wastewater services, then use that money to subsidise rates to be used on other things.

    The Select Committee concluded:

    *”We consider Auckland City Council’s description of the price increases for Metrowater cutomers as “modest” and “small” in the Statement of Proposal to have been misleading and to have led to the anxiety and concerns behind the petiton.* **

    *We consider that the council could have kept the public better informed about the charitable payments, the rise in water rates, and the decision made to direct that payment from Metrowater into upgrading Auckland’s stormwater system. In future the council should ensure that the public is better informed and that its decision making process is transparent.* **

    *We consider that the use of charitable payments in this way, and to this extent, is not best practice, and emphasise our concern that it should not be adopted by other local authorities.* **

    *We strongly advise Auckland City Council to reconsider its requirement for charitable payments from Metrowater in the years 2007 to 2017.”*

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/AK0710/S00262.htm

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________

    How much money did I get paid for all the work that went into providing evidence for the Select Committee, to help stop this $320 MILLION ripoff?

    Oh – that’s right – NONE.

    I did it all for free – because I don’t get paid for what I CHOOSE to do.

    I would expect any reasonable, fair-minded person to take this into consideration – before making silly and obviously ill-informed comments such as “You wouldn’t want to be ridiculed as a free-loading hypocrite, would you?”.

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    PS: What steps are YOU taking to help ensure Auckland Council is not acting unlawfully?
    Why are you not focusing your attention on THEIR unlawful actions, instead of those of us who are actually trying to fix the problem by taking action which cannot be ignored?
    Or is it simply easier to be a GUTLESS BLEATING SHEEP?

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  197. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    Oh dear – wat ever – you must be SO disappointed that nearly 12,000 people voted for me, campaigning against CORRUPT CORPORATE CONTROL of the Auckland region?

    As a right-winger I vote against all special-interest groups.

    You, by contrast, are happy to fuck-over the workers in order to benefit particular labour cartels.

    You are a class traitor.

    Come the revolution you will be first up against the wall for your shameless collusion with the corrupt “Labour Party” rent-seekers. Your contempt for us workers will be paid back in lead.

    Count on it, bitch.

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  198. publicwatchdog (2,225 comments) says:

    errr….. wat ever …..

    You just keep doing wat you’re doing – whining about those of us who are actually doing something EFFECTIVE?

    So campaigning against CORRUPT corporate control and privatisation is a ‘special interest group’?

    yawn ……

    Like the Not-So-Honorable John Banks – YOU wat ever – have all the CLASS of a rat with a gold tooth.

    http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/JOHN-BANKS-RAT-WITH-GOLD-TOOTH-MORPH-BANNER-ONLY-23-September-2012.jpg

    Kind regards

    Penny Bright

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  199. lilman (914 comments) says:

    Penny your full of shit,dont be a whinger,be honest for a change,pay your rates you dishonest person.

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  200. publicwatchdog (2,225 comments) says:

    I wouldn’t regard you as a ‘revolutionary’ wat ever.

    But you’re definitely REVOLTING.

    (Meant of course in a caring way :)

    Kind regards

    Penny Bright

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  201. publicwatchdog (2,225 comments) says:

    Oh – I’m VERY honest GUTLESS ANONYMOUS ‘littleman’ – and I’m NOT paying my rates.

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

    (Who at least has the honesty to put her name to her posts)

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  202. wat dabney (3,714 comments) says:

    Penny,

    What you are doing which is “EFFECTIVE” is conspiring against us workers, conspiring to keep rent-seeking special-interest labour cartels in control at our expense.

    Do you think it makes any difference who picks our fucking pockets? Do you think it makes any difference to us whether they are members of a corporation or a union?

    At best you are a clueless stooge; a sanctimonious prop used to help justify the plundering of the workers by the politically-connected.

    Fuck off and take your rent-seeking mates with you.

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  203. Dirty Rat (383 comments) says:

    I hope everyone enjoyed their Friday, a day when we celebrate a fucking socialist getting nailed up on a cross

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  204. publicwatchdog (2,225 comments) says:

    Yawn ……. wat ever

    I’m a ‘clueless stooge’?

    Try looking in the mirror …..

    Good night!

    :)

    Penny Bright

    PS: I’ll be back later on today.

    Suggest you quit while you’re behind?

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  205. Manolo (13,514 comments) says:

    Today’s NZ Labour Party will be up in arms:
    Roughly 25 Muslim drivers dispatched to Cleveland Hopkins International Airport are refusing to drive cabs adorned with advertising for the region’s upcoming Gay Games, citing religious reasons.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/18/muslim-drivers-at-cleveland-airport-refuse-to-drive-cabs-with-gay-games/

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