Dirty Politics

August 14th, 2014 at 6:01 am by David Farrar

Isn’t the most dirty trick exposed in ’s book, the revelation that Hager reveals that he received six years of stolen e-mails, hacked from Cameron Slater’s Gmail and Facebook accounts?

Is it not ironic that so many on the left have marched and protested against the right of the GCSB to assist the SIS or the Police to intercept communications, if a Judge or retried Judge agrees that there is enough evidence of criminal or national security issues to give out an interception warrant. They protested for weeks and months.

Yet when we get evidence of a massive criminal hacking of six years of personal communications, then they do not see that as dirty politics. They celebrate it, because it occurred against someone they do not like. Does this not suggest a large degree of hypocrisy and faux outrage over the GCSB changes last year? Are any of those anti-GCSB protesters going to condemn Nicky Hager and his unknown associate/s for the hack and publication  of Cameron Slater’s Gmail and Facebook?

Do all those journalists who wrote dozens and dozens of stories about the GCSB Bill, have a view on whether it is okay to criminally hack someone’s private communications, because you don’t like what they write? Is this where we want politics in New Zealand to go – partisans from the left and right trying to hack each other’s communications?

The book does expose dirty politics in New Zealand, the dirty politics of those who criminally hack private communications, and publish them. They’ve just had journalists in the UK go to jail for publishing stories that they knew were based on hacked voicemails. Here though, you get to make royalties out of them.

UPDATE:John Armstrong has got very excited and said:

Hager’s allegations are many and varied. They are extremely serious. But one stands out. The allegation that one of John Key’s minions hacked into the Labour Party’s database is – to put it bluntly – the modern-day equivalent of the 1972 burglary of the Democratic Party’s national committee headquarters in the Watergate complex in Washington.

This is factually wrong, and somewhat hysterical. There was absolutely no hacking of the Labour Party. The only person who has been hacked is Cameron Slater.

The Labour Party had the technical competence of a five year old and had their credit card database lying openly on their webserver for the world to see. No hacking needed, no passwords needed. They placed the data openly on the world wide web. 

Someone noticed this and e-mailed Cameron Slater. He of course delighted in their incompetence and prepared to blog on it. He mentioned it to a few people, who had a look around, including Jason. That’s not hacking, that is not burglary. It is curiosity. Again – this was information they had accidentally made publicly available.

The question arises of course as to how Cameron’s communications were hacked. The suggestion that it was related to the DOS attack on his site is a red herring I believe. His Facebook messages are not linked to his site, and I doubt his Gmail is either. Someone must have hacked both his Gmail and his Facebook. So who could have done this? Can we think of anyone who is a known successful hacker who hates Cameron? Someone who had a lackey blogging before the book came out, that he knew what was in it? Not hard to connect the dots is it.

UPDATE: Cameron Slate has alleged Kim Dotcom was responsible, but Dotcom and Hager deny this strongly. I have no direct knowledge of who is responsible, and as usual take people at their word until there is proof to the contrary.

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228 Responses to “Dirty Politics”

  1. Pete George (23,685 comments) says:

    I’ve also been hacked.

    – my Xtra email was hacked last year (Xtra were having major problems with email security)
    – at the end of last year one of my gmail accounts was hacked (the account I use for political correspondence only)
    – early this year my Facebook was at least flagged as under attack

    I have no idea if this is related or not but one does wonder.

    I agree that politically motivated hacking is a major and serious issue, whether just of Cameron Slater but especially if more widespread.

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  2. Dead Earnest (160 comments) says:

    Section 249 of the Crimes Act 1961

    249 Accessing computer system for dishonest purpose

    (1) Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding
    7 years who, directly or indirectly, accesses any computer
    system and thereby, dishonestly or by deception, and without
    claim of right,—
    (a) obtains any property, privilege, service, pecuniary advantage,
    benefit, or valuable consideration; or
    (b) causes loss to any other person.
    (2) Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding
    5 years who, directly or indirectly, accesses any computer
    system with intent, dishonestly or by deception, and without
    claim of right,—
    (a) to obtain any property, privilege, service, pecuniary advantage,
    benefit, or valuable consideration; or
    (b) to cause loss to any other person.
    (3) In this section, deception has the same meaning as in section

    Look on the bright side Nicky, Mount Eden will be a lot more comfortable than where your friend Krim is going!

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  3. Pete George (23,685 comments) says:

    Good guesses or prior knowledge?

    There was a lot of guessing about the topic prior to the release of Nicky Hager’s book Dirty Politics. Some people seemed to have a particular interest.

    Martyn Bradbury made some uncanny ‘guesses’ two days ago in 3 guesses about Nicky Hager’s new book:

    Here are my 3 guesses on his book.

    1 – Right wing spin doctors in Wellington will be crying harder than Matthew Hooton post the Hollow Men.
    2 – We won’t hear from the Taxpayer Union for a while.
    3 – This won’t be the only time Nicky makes an impact before the election.

    Bradbury has a record of having loose bragging lips.

    Geoffrey Miller follows up:

    #Hagerbook: How did Martyn Bradbury know what was in “Dirty Politics”?

    So how did he know? Did he have a leak from Hager?

    This is of course possible, but seems unlikely. If you want to keep a political secret – as Hager did, possibly out of fear of a court injunction stopping the book’s publication – surely the last person in the world you would consider telling would be Martyn Bradbury.

    If the information did not come from Nicky Hager, how did Bradbury find out?

    What if Bradbury knows the source who leaked the documents to Hager?

    The documents obtained from Hager came from somewhere – we have been told that they were “hacked”.

    Is the hacker linked in any way to Internet Mana? Or to someone else close to Bradbury?

    And given how central he has been to nearly every big political story in New Zealand since 2012, is there somehow a role for Kim Dotcom in all of this?

    Good questions.

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  4. lolitasbrother (749 comments) says:

    If someone robs physical things like money or jewellery then it is a crime to receive those stolen goods.
    So is intellectual property the same? If Hager admits receiving stolen/ hacked data he is a criminal. In time it took me to write this I see answer above. I am getting queasy feelings . What if NZF and Conservative both get 3 or 4%

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  5. mjw (400 comments) says:

    There is unquestionably a fair amount of hypocrisy here. Nevertheless, Nicky Hager is not the PM.

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  6. Simon (763 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  7. itstricky (1,900 comments) says:

    Another post about this? Thought the guy was just a whacko conspiracy theorist.

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  8. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    If someone robs physical things like money or jewellery then it is a crime to receive those stolen goods.

    Ignoring the issue of mes rea (guilty mind) of the receiver, it is a crime because the goods did not rightfully belong to thief.

    So is intellectual property the same?

    Intellectual property is a contradiction in terms, except for the special case where the information has not been transferred to anyone.
    Property has the essential quality of exclusive possession, information that is held by more than one party is not property.

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  9. eszett (2,431 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  10. Pete George (23,685 comments) says:

    More details – I’ve also been hacked

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  11. Dead Earnest (160 comments) says:

    Simon said…”the left love to able to watch everyone to make sure everyone is compliant with their rules”

    Now that’s a bit of serious “spin”.

    The left are currently treating the laws and rules and political conventions with disdain.

    Dominated by a foreign criminal who made a fortune out of stolen intellectual poperty, fronted by a pseudo feminist who “lifted” the policies of her former employer after being “bought” by the afore mentioned foreign criminal and now assisted by a pro-privacy activist who has violated the privacy of numeous pesons by publishing personal emails illegally obtained.

    So everyone must be compliant with the rules and laws of the land except them?

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  12. FeralScrote (226 comments) says:

    Cameron Slater blogged extensively about the Labour parties lack of security on their website and brought it to their attention and they did nothing about it ,hardly hacking.
    All this is only a bombshell in the feeble minds of the conspiracy theorists.
    The mindblowing hypocrisy of the the Left once again raises its ugly head,a “journalist” using hacked and stolen emails to claim the Right hack and steal emails.
    I guess when they can`t gain traction attacking Nationals economic policies ,we get this endless bait and switch dribble to take the gullible lefties minds off reality.

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  13. martinh (1,272 comments) says:

    Shooting the messenger, first strategy to try and minimise the damage

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  14. Igotta Numbum (466 comments) says:

    PM’s key person (Ede) feeds gossip to bloggers to work with = bad

    DC’s key person (Presland) directly blogs gossip = good

    Righto, on with the show!

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  15. Manolo (14,070 comments) says:

    Nothing new. It is normal practice of double standards for the Left.

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  16. lolitasbrother (749 comments) says:

    About hacking, ..
    Can we download all emails to external safe drive, and then delete those letters from the Internet.
    This is keep records of all correspondence and sensitive things off line

    Its like a burglar at your letter box who collects all your mail for the previous many years
    I lost all my yahoo site and facebook last year by a hacker, and I lost addresses,
    I could not even say to people, be careful everyone. My friends were all asked for money in my name.
    It was terrible for me but it was just on a personal scale. I dreamed for months of killing the bastard who did it
    I ask people here to devise ways to keep emails and sensitive things separate from web if you can .
    I know, i know the horse has bolted , and Winston soon ,will be in the stable with sugar cubes.
    But he will not collaborate with the fascist racist party,
    We need those 6% votes extra, the violence is amongst us.

    and thanks Ugly truth and Earnest for factual on intellect data

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  17. oldpark (382 comments) says:

    Dirty politics Labour Party style.An associate of the Labour Party hacks into someones private computer,steals the content.Enter a well known guy known as Tricky Nicky Hager uses all the stolen emails and then writes a book of stolen emails ,and tries to assassinate the good character of our man for all reasons and seasons John Key.The whole story is a seedy grubby little story more about Hager and the Labour Party dirty tricks brigade.Hager is now endeavouring to sell the stolen emails for whoever wants to waste THIRTY FIVE DOLLARS on a clap trap smogasbord of past known content.

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  18. Igotta Numbum (466 comments) says:

    Hosking ripping Hager a new one right now… hilarious.

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  19. IGM (527 comments) says:

    Take this gutless wimpy looking piece of shit to the cleaners DPF. I reckon between you and Cam he should be dog tucker.

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  20. flipper (4,218 comments) says:

    Simon (700 comments) says:

    August 14th, 2014 at 6:28 am

    PM’s office was supposed to have hacked in Labour’s computers.

    If true Key is a gone burger.
    ****

    Gone burger..,.??????? where have U been simple Simon?

    Slater had those emails and published them, what…. more than a year ago, described the gaps in labour’s money begging system, and it was nothing more than an opened-ended failure on Labour’s computer types.

    But heh, that doesn’t bother the “shock, horror, probe” conspiracy theorists here, and in the left’s compliant media.

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  21. EAD (1,326 comments) says:

    It’s funny what the presstitute MSM calls a “scandal” these days. Perfectly normal, reasonable, common knowledge behaviour is labelled scandal by our left wing hacks yet debasing the currency (i.e the fruits of our labour), 2% per year, every year = wise, enlightened behaviour.

    In the old days, debasing the currency used to mean the chancellor got his head chopped off in the Tower of London, nowadays they get pilloried if we “suffer” from too low inflation!!

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  22. Nostalgia-NZ (5,281 comments) says:

    Having trouble buying into the outrage of how the information was ‘found,’ because it doesn’t answer the allegations made – instead makes the point of ‘you shouldn’t have those, they’re stolen.’ However this turns out I doubt that the results will benefit the Government. It doesn’t make sense to have entertained any of this stuff if it’s true, and some certainly is, because the Government was running the economy and other matters so well that there was no need to consider this type of politics. Why entrust evidence of stupidity, or worse, corruption of office to a volatile, and by turn depressed, attention seeker.

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  23. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    All this is only a bombshell in the feeble minds of the conspiracy theorists.

    Operation Northwoods says that conspiracy theorists don’t have feeble minds.

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  24. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    Take this gutless wimpy looking piece of shit to the cleaners DPF.

    Superficial and ignorant.

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  25. mjw (400 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  26. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    mjw (263 comments) says:

    “So no denials at all from National then?”

    Have you stopped beating your wife yet mjw?

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  27. oldpark (382 comments) says:

    After hearing Cameron Slater just now on the radio being interviewed by Newstalk ZBs Mike Hoskins ,and he refutes the allegations and lies as put forward by Tricky Nicky Hager Labour Party advocate,and subsequently comments by other conspiracy theorists, feeding off the allegations and their comments.It would not be beyond the realms of possibility, that they could be facing a hefty legal bill for a libelious attack on Cameron Slater and others.,whose name appears in the book of stolen emails.which Hager is trying to peddle at THIRTY FIVE DOLLARS EACH.

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  28. Tarquin North (361 comments) says:

    I think Campbell Live turning up at Cams house will prove to be a very grave error of judgement.

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  29. ross001 (221 comments) says:

    Hosking ripping Hager a new one right now… hilarious.

    That wouldn’t be the same Mike Hosking, independent to a T of course, who is conducting the leaders debate soon? LMAO

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  30. PaulL (6,048 comments) says:

    I think they’ve nailed Whale on some stuff, I’m not really fussed on that since I never visit there. I find it too nasty. I’m not sure they’ve really nailed Key and co, other than that Key’s office have leaked stuff, which is kinda their job. It’ll do some damage but I haven’t seen the smoking gun yet. But I have to wait for others to read it – I have no intention of buying it.

    The biggest allegation appears to be of hacking, but that’s something Slater said he did in 2011, including all the details being published. And visiting a publicly available URL is hardly hacking.

    It’ll probably do some damage, but not so much as people are gleefully declaring.

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  31. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    he refutes the allegations and lies

    How did Slater do that?

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  32. tvb (4,515 comments) says:

    Hager makes a habit of getting material obtained unlawfully from a computer. The ability to hack this material is fairly sophisticated and could perhaps involve a foreign power.

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  33. ross001 (221 comments) says:

    it was nothing more than an opened-ended failure on Labour’s computer types.

    That sounds suspiciously like telling women they need to carry whistles and wear running shoes to avoid being raped…

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  34. Scott1 (576 comments) says:

    Going on about hypocrisy doesn’t usually produce the results one desires.

    A group accused of saying the right thing and doing the wrong thing when accused of hypocrisy is most likely to just stop saying the right thing, which will decrease the incentives to do the right thing for anyone else (which is hypocritical in itself).

    If you want them to stop DOING the wrong thing, the solution is to punish people for doing that thing.

    But if you do do it, it is a pox on both your houses for rampant hypocrisy because deep down all of those involved care about pushing their political agenda and are a bit flexible on exactly how that is done.

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  35. ross001 (221 comments) says:

    he refutes the allegations and lies

    You obviously don’t understand what “refute” means. If Slater can provide evidence that Hager is wrong, then indeed that would amount to a refutation. In the meantime, we await Slater’s evidence…or will he have to pay a lobbyist to get him the evidence?

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  36. RF (1,453 comments) says:

    Heard the Lardo lady Rachel on ZB this morning – Wringing her hands about the Supposed dirty tricks by Whale & the Nats and this was followed by thumb head Cunners sounding so serious & pious.

    Put me off my breakfast….

    I was cheered up after hearing Mike Hosking ripping Hager to pieces. It will be tomorrow’s fish & chip wrapping.

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  37. FeralScrote (226 comments) says:

    Jeepers 35 bucks Oldpark? I don`t think can be bothered ,even next week when they are in the 2 for a dollar bin at the Big Red Shed.

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  38. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ DPF

    Two wrongs will never make a right David.

    There is a certain irony that a Left Wing Activist used corrupt practice to expose the corrupt practices of Right Wing Activists.
    But, there is no excuse that make any of it respectable, I’m sorry.

    I haven’t yet read the book – but last nights conversation on here reminded me of an OIA I got a while back, where I requested information on the provision of information to certain members of the media and Whaleoil. I had noticed that he appeared to have information that hadn’t been provided to main stream media. At the time I thought little of the fact that Whaleoil had received many pages of documents within minutes of making a request, and the others had waited days for a reply. Nor had it overly worried me that Whaleoil had been provided with one document, that was absent from all the others. Today it has more significance.

    It doesn’t matter how you paint this – or the PM paints it – calling a person a left wing activist as if that is some sort of insult, does not work when you use, engage with or are a right wing activist yourself.

    I respect your stance, and your honesty – you do not hide what you do, and it is, as you say blatantly obvious that you are supplied with and encouraged by National to do what you do – but the standards, the dishonesty, and the out right appalling tactics of Cameron Slater are another matter – the fact that Government Ministers chose to give such a man preferential treatment is not acceptable.

    I am fully aware such tactics have been used for decades, got worse under Helen Clark, and have deteriorated more under Key. None of that is acceptable. None of it is fair.

    If National cannot win this next election on the merits of what they have to offer this country we are all losers. If the only reason they can win is by employing dirty tactics to do so, then we have already lost. Key should be the next Prime Minister because he is the best man for the job – not because he has a team of people behind him, who clearly don’t think he has the ability to win without the application of dishonesty.

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  39. Gulag1917 (1,018 comments) says:

    Lefties and freedom; people in Communist nations have been so traumatised that it will take 40-80 years for people to recover psychologically.

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  40. berend (1,716 comments) says:

    I would say if you are hackable, you have a problem. If it’s not journalists, it may be others. Obviously it’s not nice to have been hacked, but slack security is not necessary either.

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  41. Ross12 (1,456 comments) says:

    I haven’t seen the book but from some of the comments made by both sides it seem Hager thinks bloggers should NOT get information in the same way political journalists do. Bloggers are not in the news game as far as he is concerned.
    Maybe poor old Nicky feels he is being left behind

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  42. Viking2 (11,571 comments) says:

    Funny, but it is so newsworthy that it barely rates a mention in the morning papers.

    Definitely not headline stuff. Probably because the papers don’t want to be done over like Brit tabloids were.

    Reckon the Law just might be convinced to have a close look at Hager and his stolen emails.

    Oh they fell of a truck.

    Typical old union cry to avoid being done for stolen goods.

    piece of scum.

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  43. itstricky (1,900 comments) says:

    Good post Judith. In fact I think that should a far more sensible post than this one by DPF in it’s entirety. I wish he would rise above it and publish something thoughtful and measured rather than just stoking the fire with more ‘smarmy lefties hacking accounts he said she said you did it first’ high school fare. As you say, that gets no one anywhere.

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  44. big bruv (14,156 comments) says:

    I watched Cuntliffe on breakfast TV this morning discussing the latest book by Nicky Hager. It was classic Cuntliffe, complete with “this is my serious face” look.

    What a complete tosser. Cuntliffe also lied when he said that Labour are not involved with bloggers or party aligned websites.

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  45. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  46. oldpark (382 comments) says:

    Cameron Slater in his interview with Mike Hoskins mentioned a well known journalist who this year received a top award,might just be shaking a little bit and contemplating their navel,over the present fiasco,or words to that affect.Wonder what he was hinting at.

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  47. Lance (2,715 comments) says:

    Nicky Hagar stated to Hosking he wasn’t politically motivated……………………

    Brahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha

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  48. itstricky (1,900 comments) says:

    Cameron Slater in his interview with Mike Hoskins mentioned a well known journalist who this year received a top award,might just be shaking a little bit and contemplating their navel,over the present fiasco,or words to that affect.Wonder what he was hinting at.

    And if you wanted an example of why he is a nasty piece of work and not a ‘journalist’, there it is.

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  49. Hugh Pavletich (379 comments) says:

    Judith … thank you for your excellent contribution above.

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  50. oldpark (382 comments) says:

    Heard Barry Sloper on the radio at 7.00ish he seemed to put the boot in .Of course Soper is not known as Labour’s twelvth man for nothing.Was great to see he got the bumbs rush the other night at Helensville(how IronicaL) nobody knew who he was.)

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  51. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    So no denials at all from mjw then?

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  52. publicwatchdog (2,822 comments) says:

    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.

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  53. thePeoplesFlag (257 comments) says:

    “…Funny, but it is so newsworthy that it barely rates a mention in the morning papers…”

    Most of journalists would have spent the night reading the book. Expect the real shit to hit the fan later today.

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  54. Igotta Numbum (466 comments) says:

    Not hard to connect the dots is it.

    I see what you did there :D

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  55. Maggy Wassilieff (449 comments) says:

    @ Judith…. I don’t think politics has ever been fair or nice…. probably why I don’t associate with politicians.

    But some years ago I discovered that if you live in the left-wing beltway of the Wellington Public Service, you get a pretty one-sided view of what’s going on. Right -wing blogs have provided me with information I couldn’t easily access elsewhere.

    Of course the worry is I might become influenced by some of the writing on these blogs……perish the thought.

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  56. redqueen (583 comments) says:

    Long live Mike Hosking!

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  57. Raphael (88 comments) says:

    A couple people have made a comment about Slater hacking the Labour website……Um no. The database in question was left wide open for the world to access. That’s not hacking on Slater’s part, that’s crap network security on Labour’s IT team’s part.

    The scandal there isn’t that Slater accessed it. It’s that some idiot thought it was okay to have a confidential database on the webserver with no security on it.

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  58. Inthisdress (300 comments) says:

    Sorry, but under the Labour-initiated EFA is Penny Bright even allowed to participate in this blog so close to an election?

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  59. doggone7 (827 comments) says:

    red queen:

    Did Hosking get a mention in the book?

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  60. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Raphael (74 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 8:43 am

    Oh, I see, if you leave a window open its okay for a burglar to climb right in? Burglary is okay under some circumstances.

    That’s an interesting take on it – I’m amazed at the inventive thinking that is being applied to the phenomena of ‘butt covering’ this morning.

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  61. Nigel Kearney (1,049 comments) says:

    Politicians giving information to some media but not others is not corrupt or dishonest or dirty tactics. Choosing who gets what information based on whether they support or oppose your party is also fine.

    The OIA and parliamentary procedure specify what information the government is required to disclose. Anything else is at their discretion and they’re perfectly entitled to exercise that discretion in a way that is advantageous to them. It’s not tiddleywinks.

    But having anything to do with Cameron Slater is unwise just because he is so deservedly unlikeable and has low credibility.

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  62. radvad (772 comments) says:

    Is the claim that Whale/Ede “hacked” Labour party web site libellous? To say they have committed a crime has serious implications if in fact no such thing happened.

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  63. Neil (589 comments) says:

    This whole thing underlines the fact that the left are clutching at straws to get traction. Note how Cunliffe talked of a “civilised campaign”, I believe he knew this was coming and wanted to make Labour look so pure.
    Out in the wider world there is a general ho hum attitude to the whole thing. People will not listen to this – it’s a bit like the boy calling shark once too often. Key is National’s road to victory. Tarnish that will help the left.
    My feeling is that the die is cast already in the election, the left probably the recipient of a deflating decision of the people.

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  64. Rick Rowling (815 comments) says:

    ross001 (134 comments) says:it was nothing more than an opened-ended failure on Labour’s computer types.

    That sounds suspiciously like telling women they need to carry whistles and wear running shoes to avoid being raped…

    No, no it doesn’t. And if you think it does you need to reconsider the two scenarios. Misogynist.

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  65. iMP (2,422 comments) says:

    From Whaleoil… CoNZervative

    The real hollow man is Nicky Hagar. In the interests of transparency and honesty Hagar, reveal HOW you got Cameron’s emails. Otherwise you’re a grubby clandestine partisan skunk. And it’s starting to really smell…

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  66. Nigel Kearney (1,049 comments) says:

    Oh, I see, you leave a window open its okay for a burglar to climb right in?

    That’s the wrong analogy for what happened. There is a legal rule and social norm that you don’t go into a stranger’s house uninvited even if the door is open. There is no such rule about browsing a stranger’s web site and opening files found there, as long as you don’t attempt to bypass security.

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  67. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Maggy Wassilieff (305 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 8:38 am

    Totally agree Maggy which is why I am here. I followed a link to the Standard once, and backed out real quick – even I’m not brave enough to post there!

    I think we all get influenced negatively or positively by what we read on line, but once we’re standing over the toilet with a toilet brush in one hand and a bottle of janola in the other, we come down to earth again pretty quickly – i.e. regular living tends to ground us once we’ve logged off.

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  68. Raphael (88 comments) says:

    Judith (8,015 comments) says:

    Oh, I see, you leave a window open its okay for a burglar to climb right in?

    That’s an interesting take on it – I’m amazed at the inventive thinking that is being applied to the phenomena of ‘butt covering’ this morning.

    Did I say that? No, I said that it’s not hacking when the database is sitting wide open to the world for anyone to access. It is hacking when you go about bypassing security to gain access to the data. (i.e. like hacking into someone’s gmail account to steal their emails).
    If there is no security to bypass, it ain’t exactly hacking (despite what teens seem to think when the find a friend who didn’t log out of FB)

    Furthermore it is not like “leaving a window open for a burglar to climb in”. It’s more like leaving a couch on the side of the road and then complaining because someone took it.

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  69. lolitasbrother (749 comments) says:

    Good to hear from you Hugh Pavletich, and referring to Judith’s comment,and I agree. Are you suggesting maybe that
    Christchurch has not been well served politically Hugh. I always saw it as a National disaster. Antony was not here in Bangkok so long. Change of clothes and home again, life hard brother

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  70. tom hunter (5,091 comments) says:

    I actually put the following up during the non-existent debate on the GOP will take Senate thread, but now it seems entirely appropriate for NZ.

    Here’s journalist Sharyl Attkisson casting Watergate into the modern world:

    ATTKISSON: I think that we’ve gone backwards since that time when we really felt empowered as journalists. And I like to think as what would happen today during a Nixon type scandal, Nixon would basically refuse to turn over tapes to congress, his aides would refuse to testify to congress or would take the fifth or would lie to congress with fair amount of impunity. Woodward and Bernstein will be controversialized on social media by special and political interests.

    RADDATZ: Well, this is all very depressing–

    ATTKISSON: — Facebook accounts. And then at the end, Nixon would go on a popular late night comedy show during which time he would humorously refer to his attackers as people that were political witch hunters who believe in Area 51 type conspiracies.

    Given how useless the MSM is in NZ the playbook might be even simpler here; just refuse to front Key or Collins on any radio or TV current affair show and let the 72 hour news cycle run until a cat is stuck up in a tree.

    For those who don’t think that something as simple as this could work you should note the way the whole Collins-glass-of-milk-shock-horror expose died after Key pulled Collins from the media.

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  71. thePeoplesFlag (257 comments) says:

    Can we confirm this post wasn’t ghost written by Jason Ede?

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  72. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Nigel Kearney (885 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 8:50 am

    Ahhh, but they did have to bypass security — the problem is it was pretty slack security that was easily by-passed, however, effort had to be made, the data base was not just sitting there for any casual observer to view.

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  73. Milk Me (157 comments) says:

    Nationals win at all costs attitude frankly stinks. John Keys very close association with the scumbag gutter raking ugly piece of shit Slater does him no favours. The public are slowly waking up to the fact that Key is not working for New Zealand but working for himself, his cronies and his puppet masters. (Key doesn’t see the strings)
    The sooner he leaves NZ the better, while we do not have a great alternative to National I’ve had a fucking guts full of the piece of shit Key and his lies, double standards and immoral behaviour to the most vulnerable in our country.

    LIES LIES LIES LIES. We deserve better.

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  74. Manolo (14,070 comments) says:

    The verbose Bainite could be an active member of the PSA. Who knows?

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  75. Pete George (23,685 comments) says:

    Bad link on this above, here it is again on #Hagerbook: How did Martyn Bradbury know what was in “Dirty Politics”?

    http://www.geoffreymiller.info/2014/08/hagerbook-how-did-martyn-bradbury-know-what-was-in-dirty-politics/

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  76. berend (1,716 comments) says:

    Raphel: he scandal there isn’t that Slater accessed it. It’s that some idiot thought it was okay to have a confidential database on the webserver with no security on it.

    Unfortunately that is still illegal. I.e. even if someone leaves a confidential report on the copier, doesn’t mean you can take or read it. Obviously you are technically right that this wasn’t hacking.

    Judith: Ahhh, but they did have to bypass security

    No, you are completely mistaken. There was no security. It was like leaving the membership database on the copier downtown.

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  77. Komata (1,202 comments) says:

    Milk Me

    You evidently don’t like Mr. Key very much. Would you care to explain why?

    In the interests of ‘Transparency’, and ‘open and informed’ debate of course…

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  78. lolitasbrother (749 comments) says:

    We have to pick up this potential 4% drag down, old people are going to sugar daddy Winston stables, maybe our Christian brother with cross eyes, move now NZ Nat party Government , pull out all armoury now

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  79. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Pete George (23,023 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 8:56 am

    Are you really going to play the game where it is the secondary messengers who are at fault, rather than those whose parties whose behaviour contributed to the wrong doing in the first place?

    I have to say I am disappointed Pete – I thought you stood for more than that.

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  80. Julian (178 comments) says:

    Even Hager seemed to realise – as Comrade Campbell’s forlorn look gave away that he thought the book was nonsense – that his moon-landing conspiracy theories were baseless.

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  81. Ryan Sproull (7,285 comments) says:

    Isn’t the most dirty trick exposed in Nicky Hager’s book, the revelation that Hager reveals that he received six years of stolen e-mails, hacked from Cameron Slater’s Gmail and Facebook accounts?

    I’m kind of comparing it to blackmailing Rodney Hide into stepping down as leader of ACT.

    And to Judith Collins moving a prisoner, at Slater’s request, away from his daughter so she couldn’t visit him any more, and him later attempting suicide.

    So “most dirty”? Certainly not the most dirty allegation.

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  82. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ berend (1,645 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 8:57 am

    It was not open access – in that anyone could just search Labour Party Members or some other similar phrase and find it. In order to find it you had to have non-public information to access it. Therefore there was a degree of security involved, which was breached. You can try to paint it any way you like berend, but dirty tactics were involved.

    The most dirty of all being what Slater did with that information – but somehow that doesn’t see to worry you – you find that acceptable – which speaks volumes about your ethics.

    I dont’ support the people that provided information to Hager or the use of corrupt practice to expose corrupt practice – but the dishonesty is not excused because of the methods. They just provide another layer to an appalling situation.

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  83. radvad (772 comments) says:

    I recall Cam claiming he had access to Labour’s website but I do not recall him using any of the info. Maybe someone can help me here.
    If not it could be argued that Cam actually did Labour a service by alerting them to the problem before someone unscrupulous enough to use “stolen” information got hold of it. Someone like Nicky Hagar perhaps.

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  84. metcalph (1,435 comments) says:

    Unfortunately that is still illegal. I.e. even if someone leaves a confidential report on the copier, doesn’t mean you can take or read it.

    There’s no law against reading confidential documents. The real analogy would be to have ACC or Social Welfare statements blowing in the street.

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  85. metcalph (1,435 comments) says:

    I’m kind of comparing it to blackmailing Rodney Hide into stepping down as leader of ACT.

    That allegation really doesn’t pass the smell test.

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  86. oldpark (382 comments) says:

    The Labour/green/mana/dotcom web site known as the “standard”.Gomerel Cunliffe as usual lied through his teeth .Saying his party were not involved with blog sites.Seems that is where the mentioned parties get their filth and lies from.Seems that leffto,party support base,is full of psychopaths and even worse sociopaths.What a pity Gomerel Cunliffe once more indicts himself as a chronic manifest liar.

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  87. metcalph (1,435 comments) says:

    It was not open access – in that anyone could just search Labour Party Members or some other similar phrase and find it. In order to find it you had to have non-public information to access it.

    Factually wrong. It was so open access that google was indexing it! If it was a person, it would be arrested for indecent exposure.

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  88. Nigel Kearney (1,049 comments) says:

    Ahhh, but they did have to bypass security …

    No, they really didn’t. It was just sitting there. I’m making up the URL but you could go to something like http://labour.org.nz/records/memberlist.txt and get a big list of members and their payment info. No password or authentication asked for or required. Once you opened the file you would realize they didn’t mean to make it public and a decent person would certainly have just sent a private email to the sysadmin and deleted their copy of the information. But there was no hacking of any kind.

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  89. Ryan Sproull (7,285 comments) says:

    That allegation really doesn’t pass the smell test.

    Could be. I haven’t read the book yet. Getting it today before I take any positions on the strength of its arguments.

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  90. metcalph (1,435 comments) says:

    I recall Cam claiming he had access to Labour’s website but I do not recall him using any of the info. Maybe someone can help me here.

    He didn’t. He would be the equivalent of a white-hat hacker but it wasn’t a hack by any definition of the term.

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  91. Pete George (23,685 comments) says:

    Judith, I don’t think political hacking is a secondary issue, it’s a serious issue alongside the Hager allegations.

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  92. Pete George (23,685 comments) says:

    Slater is promoting his modus operandi

    Politics is a dirty, disgusting, despicable game. And it involves dirty, disgusting, despicable people at all levels.

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/08/love-smell-napalm-morning/

    It doesn’t have to be dirty, and it shouldn’t be dirty. Entrenched attitudes and practices among political operators and media live off the dirt and stir it up, but that doesn’t mean it”s acceptable.

    Politics is supposed to be about leadership of the country, this involves a number of responsibilities. Some of those responsibilities are to act decently and honorably, and to set a good example.

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  93. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Nigel Kearney (886 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 9:13 am

    I realise there were no pass words etc Nigel. But it was not accessible simply by doing a normal search for it. The average person off the street would not have known how to find it, and even Slater wouldn’t have found it without assistance.

    Even if it was advertised Nigel, how Slater then used that information was unethical – it was dirty.

    IT was dishonest – it is dirty politics – and it is a definite show that National Supporters do not think Key has what it takes to be leader, without conducting such mindless and nasty campaigns to assist him.

    You are all scrambling round trying to make excuses for it – you’re all giving Slater permission but for what reason? Why would a reputable party need to resort to such tactics if they had total faith in their ability to provide the best for New Zealand?

    If John Key is the best prime minister ever, why is it he needs to engage with people who do such things? Why does National need DPF or Cameron Slater to twist facts, expose private secrets.

    And something else, why do they need to have exclusive access to government information – if the government is being the one Key promised – open and transparent? It appears to me that this issue has exposed, if nothing else, that Key lied when he promised that – in fact he has given quite the opposite.

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  94. Nostalgia-NZ (5,281 comments) says:

    I like the new defence of ‘I didn’t steal it because the door was open.’

    From a Minister of Justice..’If you can’t be loved best, then best to be feared.’ That could be the sentence of the year, a true revelation of a logic that if you can’t win over people with fairness, or at least a pretence of fairness and honesty, then ensure they fear you. People will have to now ask if this Government seeks either to dupe the public or be held in fear. It has the tone of pre Magna Carta times and no doubt will be investigated during a JR next year to see if the Minister indeed thinks she is above the Law and that her office is not bound to demonstrate fairness or due process but should maintain a rule of fear above all else. A ‘nice’ demonstration as to the lack of respect as to what an executive power or Royal Prerogative may be.

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  95. tom hunter (5,091 comments) says:

    I haven’t read the book yet. Getting it today before I take any positions on the strength of its arguments.

    You’re borrowing it I hope, not paying $35 of your hard-earned money to the trust-fund-baby?

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  96. RightNow (6,999 comments) says:

    I’m getting a leaked copy on a USB drive.
    Doubt that I’ll read it though. From what I hear, Dirty Politics by Nicky Hager is just dirty politics by Nicky Hager.

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  97. PaulL (6,048 comments) says:

    Imagine someone has a website, some things on it need a password, some things don’t. Say, Kiwiblog as an example. Google indexes all the things that don’t need a password. Say you go to google one day, and google gives you a link to a page on that website. By definition that means it’s open access, right? Is clicking on that link hacking?

    If I was a hacker I would be severely disappointed in the way the media assign the label “hacker” to people who click on links. It sort of demeans the art a bit – and makes being a hacker somewhat second rate.

    As for the actual usage and everything else about the list, this was all done to death in 2011, and all over the blogs. Rehashing it 6 weeks before the election doesn’t make it news, in relation to that specific allegation I don’t see why it’s getting airplay. And once we ignore that allegation, what do we actually have that’s new and that implicates National as opposed to Cameron Slater, known feral blogger?

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  98. Pete George (23,685 comments) says:

    Slater claims to have had email contact with people in Labour as well. None of this is apparently disclosed in the book.
    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/08/love-smell-napalm-morning/

    Did Hager ignore any correspondence between Slater and other parties? Or was this all filtered before he got the data?

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  99. Ryan Sproull (7,285 comments) says:

    You’re borrowing it I hope, not paying $35 of your hard-earned money to the trust-fund-baby?

    Nah, happy to buy it. Would much prefer it was available on Kindle, though.

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  100. tom hunter (5,091 comments) says:

    Nah, happy to buy it.

    Bloody hell:

    Theology student => libertarian socialist => pays up-front price for Hager book => ????

    I’m afraid for your future Ryan.

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  101. Manolo (14,070 comments) says:

    Nothing to be afraid of: he will become a loyal public servant who votes Labour at every election. :D

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  102. Tarquin North (361 comments) says:

    Ryan, have a look at KDC, surely it’s free there? Personally I think it would be a waste of time. I also wonder if reading it makes you guilty of receiving stolen property and your local bookshop owner a fence?

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  103. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Pete George (23,026 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 9:33 am

    ‘They’re doing it too’ – makes it alright does Pete?

    We kiwis have to accept it because both sides are corrupt? I think we all already knew that – the hypocrisy for me is that fact that one of the leaders promised faithfully to offer us open and transparent governance and has done the exact opposite.

    National’s right wing activists have spent absolute months tearing Labour to pieces for their behaviour whilst pretending to take the higher ground – when it fact they were sitting in the same sewer, the only difference being is they were being nurtured from the tits of Government Ministers, and labour were sitting alone.

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  104. mister nui (1,030 comments) says:

    Is that statement by Armstrong re the “hacking” of the Labour database not defamatory? The database was not hacked, but left open on the web, as I understand it.

    Could be another prosecution in the wind;
    The hacker for hacking
    Hagar for receiving stolen property
    Armstrong and the Herald for defamation

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  105. ross411 (880 comments) says:

    ross001 (134 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 7:46 am
    it was nothing more than an opened-ended failure on Labour’s computer types.

    That sounds suspiciously like telling women they need to carry whistles and wear running shoes to avoid being raped…

    Hey David Cunliffe, when you’re done apologising for being a man again, can you tell Matt McCarten to stop stealing money from honest employees and embezzling it to give to the Labour party. That wasn’t one of your secret donors was it?

    My point is, an opportunistic apologiser like you probably finds everything conveniently sounds like that, regardless of the stretch, if it wins your political point. And if the stretch is long, you just paint it that way anyway, because shit sticks to a wall.

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  106. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    For those confused about the “hacking” involved in accessing Labour’s database, you are currently “hacking” this webpage. Congratulations.

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  107. Psycho Milt (2,419 comments) says:

    Isn’t the most dirty trick exposed in Nicky Hager’s book, the revelation that Hager reveals that he received six years of stolen e-mails, hacked from Cameron Slater’s Gmail and Facebook accounts?

    Ha ha – yeah, those dirty tricksters Woodward and Bernstein were so much worse than the people they exposed, right?

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  108. Ryan Sproull (7,285 comments) says:

    Theology student => libertarian socialist => pays up-front price for Hager book => ????

    I’m afraid for your future Ryan.

    Missed a few steps in there, Tom, but the long and the short of it is this:

    I want to be able to engage in conversations about the allegations in this book, and I can’t do that without having read the actual allegations and the evidence presented to support them.

    As for my future, be assured it is awesome ;)

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  109. Pete George (23,685 comments) says:

    ‘They’re doing it too’ – makes it alright does Pete?

    No, it makes it worse. All parties need to clean up – particularly National and Labor but Winston’s one of the worst (and his opportunism on this is highly hypocritical.

    Bradbury has been a feed for the Mana and Internet parties. Even Greens sometimes resort to playing dirty.

    The whole lot of them need to clean up and act like responsible representatives and leaders.

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  110. Pete George (23,685 comments) says:

    And the plot thickens:

    ‏@dpfdpf

    Interesting. Whale Oil says that Nicky Hager met with Kim Dotcom at his mansion. Same sources as exposed Norman/Peters meetings.

    That link didn’t take long to come out.

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  111. berend (1,716 comments) says:

    Judith: The most dirty of all being what Slater did with that information – but somehow that doesn’t see to worry you – you find that acceptable – which speaks volumes about your ethics.

    You appear to be a bit out of your depth with regards to what is exactly hacking Judith. It was unauthorised access. Agree on that.

    But on what worries me: I actually encourage hacking!! I make money securing people’s information, and the current state is simply appalling. The more hacks the better IMO. It raises awareness, and it’s good for business.

    BTW, I have no clue what Slater did what that information, so can’t specifically comment if that would have worried me :-)

    And the second BTW: kids, don’t hack from home.

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  112. publicwatchdog (2,822 comments) says:

    Just checked with Whitcoulls St Luke’s. Nicky Hager’s ‘Dirty Politics’ has just come in. So – Ill be getting a copy shortly. Seems that sales are quite brisk ….

    Kind regards

    Penny Bright

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  113. ross411 (880 comments) says:

    Judith (8,021 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 9:25 am
    @ Nigel Kearney (886 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 9:13 am

    I realise there were no pass words etc Nigel. But it was not accessible simply by doing a normal search for it. The average person off the street would not have known how to find it, and even Slater wouldn’t have found it without assistance.

    You do not understand technology Judith. People leave things accessible on web sites all the time, and other people, even technologically unskilled, can find them with minimal effort. Google can do it with the right words, and you don’t even have to know it’s the right words, just the ones you happen to use.

    By your definition, when you’ve googled for something, you’ve implicitly done something wrong because you have no way of knowing what your search has found which was intended to be made available by the web site owners, and what was not. I’m not twisting anything, or painting anything the way it isn’t. This is simply how hard it is to be sure you haven’t made something available you didn’t want to.

    To call finding something made public unintentionally (through incompetence or lack of care), like Labour’s database, hacking, is to be disingenuous or ignorant. Hacking is actual breaking in. Like trying to guess a password. Or calling the service provider and pretending to be someone from Labour to get a password reset. Or using some program designed to take advantage of a flaw, in order to bypass access restriction systems. And so on.

    There’s a big difference between finding mistakenly made available information, and hacking. If you can’t see it, then can only shake my head in disappointment, as it is a sad lack of understanding of how the internet works.

    But if you choose to see it as hacking still, then let’s be clear. You are choosing to see it that way. The difference is clearly defined without any weasel words (made available intentionally or not vs. forcibly accessed past restrictions). Labour’s database was made available by Labour, and Slater’s emails were forcibly accessed past restrictions.

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  114. Redbaiter (9,631 comments) says:

    The opening post was concerned with the theft of emails and publishing what the stolen emails contain.

    Well, I’m no fan of the duplicitous little comme Hager, but I don’t think much of Slater either, (or his lying cringing staffers) but its surprising to me that in all the discussion above there is not one reference to Slater’s acquisition of Matt Bloomfield’s emails via a claimed stolen hard drive and his enthusiastic publishing of those emails while proclaiming “Dont Fuck With A Blogger”.

    Hasn’t Slater been “hoist by his own petard”?

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  115. RightNow (6,999 comments) says:

    Judith, you probably won’t want to dirty yourself so I’ll quote what Cam Slater says on Whaleoil about the ‘hacking':

    This is a lie. The Labour party website is extremely well documented, by me at the time. The website was open to the world and anyone could access it. It was not ever hacked. Furthermore it was not the PM’s department that alerted me to the openness of the Labour party website…I had two sources, neither of which are from the PM’s department.

    EDIT: Slater says that’s one of three lies he is calling without having read the book yet. I’m off to get popcorn.

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  116. flipper (4,218 comments) says:

    put these on the Gen Deb… but they should be here:

    flipper (3,680 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 8:59 am
    Judith…,..
    You are more intelligent than the “Hager believers”.
    Please try to remember that Hager has not produced any authenticated, documentary proof, to back his dot joining. He claims to have it, but discloses nothing. And to disclose might also disclose his lies.
    I suggest you go to Newstalk ZB, listen to Hosking tear Hager a second arsehole, and then listen to Hosking interview Slater. Both are on the web site.
    Slater is in Korea, but to believe TV3 and TVNZ, Slater has a fancy telephone diversion hook up to give the media the impression that he is in Seoul, while he hides in Auckland.
    Hager claims that he “discloses” the National Party membership of Slater and DPF. Not sure that Slater is a current financial member, but he has never hidden his leanings, nor his connections. Hell, his father is a former national President. David is well known in national circles, and has never hidden his membership or allegiance.As for leaks and inspired news items, these have been around since Adam was a cowboy, so to speak. Hell, at one time I had two apple boxes full of Cabinet papers and other documents – all given to me by the Ministers in question.
    There is nothing that I have seen in the extracts published that I find disturbing, not even the supposed links between Big Tobacco and Peter Dunne. Dunne’s son has worked for that industry, and last time I looked tobacco was a legal substance.
    While I have no time or respect for Collins, Hager makes allegations, but presents not a shred of evidence. Easy to claim, but more difficult to substantiate.
    Much ado about nothing..,.,. except that all the illegalities I have seen so far are on Hager’s tab.
    In the meantime Armstrong and Dann are having wet dreams over unsubstantiated claims by the ultimate “shock, horror, probe” artist – a disreputable parental leech, who writes fiction every three or so years.
    Vote: 10

    1. flipper (3,680 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 9:40 am
    Great sledge on Hager by Michael Bassett a few minutes ago…
    “Hager – a ferret-faced fruitcake”. Invited to repeat, he said: ” A ferret-faced fruitcake”.
    Bassett has also detailed to Leighton Smith the extent of left wing angst, nay fury, that they are unable, on any issue, to make in-roads into National, and J Key in particular.
    And, after slicing and dicing the left wing media (TVNZ describing Hager as a bombshell in one breath, and saying he (Dann) had not read the book in the next), he outlined one of the dirty tricks used by Helen Clark. According to M Basset she was in the habit of phoning talk back shows, and disguising her voice by talking through a sock. It was marvellous stuff, and will no doubt be archived shortly on NewstalkZB’s website.

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  117. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    @Redbaiter – “…Slater’s acquisition of Matt Bloomfield’s emails via a claimed stolen hard drive…”

    I think that the claim of “stolen” may have been made by a leftie. Given that that they *still* think that the Labour website was “hacked” I wouldn’t put much store in their claims.

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  118. Redbaiter (9,631 comments) says:

    “I think that the claim of “stolen” may have been made by a leftie.”

    I think it was made by Matt Bloomfield.

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  119. thor42 (971 comments) says:

    This will all end up exploding in the left’s faces.

    It is the height of irony that the term “dirty politics” will now be forever associated with *Nicky Hager* – not with the people that he accuses of indulging in it.

    Various people in the media have already metaphorically shredded the book – Mike Hosking in particular. Hager was lost for words when grilled by Hosking.

    The Nats could not have hoped for a better own-goal by the Left. It is also the case that because of this nonsensical book, Labour’s election messages will get no “cut through” for at least the next week. “Well done” Hager……. /sarc

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  120. Mr_Blobby (190 comments) says:

    Well what do we know about Blubber Boy and his Whale scum.

    1. They are nothing but ratings whores.

    2. Some one has served up some of their own medicine and they don’t like it.

    3. We know that Slater (Blubber boy) is a nasty piece of work.

    4. Lift the stone, shine some light and the cockroaches run away. Knock on door from media.

    5. Will blubber on about how unfair life is, but will not want to test the allegation in an open Court.

    And yes Redbaiter Blubber Boy has been “hoist by his own petard”?

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  121. Pete George (23,685 comments) says:

    More from Slater on the Dotcom connection:

    When will Nicky Hager declare the involvement of Kim Dotcom in this book, and with the hacking? Hager spent a considerable amount of time at the mansion and I have three eyewitnesses to this. Ironically the same eyewitnesses who told me about Clare Curran’s, Winston Peters and Russel Norman’s visits to the mansion.

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/08/apparently-shock-horror-politics-dirty/

    And another wee snippet:

    Martyn Bradbury ‏@CitizenBomber

    pfft – Nicky contacted me months ago asking specific questions which helped my guesses – the lesson is read TDB

    Using Bradbury as a source.

    And a new post at Whale Oil – Hagar confirms links to Kim Dotcom

    Two independent witnesses have placed Nicky Hagar at the Dotcom mansion on multiple occasions. Hagar has admitted to only one visit on radio this morning.

    http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/08/hagar-confirms-links-kim-dotcom/

    It’s worth reading all of that post. The story was never going to be one sided.

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  122. Ryan Sproull (7,285 comments) says:

    Sold out in central Auckland – both Whitcoulls, and Unity.

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  123. hubbers (142 comments) says:

    Dirtiest election ever

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  124. Pete George (23,685 comments) says:

    Jason Ede should be a bit concerned about his future. Patrick Gower:

    If the email is credible, then it really is this simple: a staffer of the Prime Minister should not be digging around in another party’s computer system.

    The question for the Prime Minister is this: what is OK about one of his staffers allegedly poking around in Labour’s computer system?

    All political parties get involved in attack politics and a bit of dirt digging.

    But in most ordinary New Zealanders’ minds “attack politics” doesn’t include unauthorised access to other people’s computers.

    The Prime Minister can get to the bottom of this very quickly: he can just ask Ede to “please explain”.

    Then the Prime Minister needs to explain what has been going on.

    And if Key’s office is as dirty as Hager’s book makes out – then he must clean it up.

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Opinion-Key-must-clean-up-his-dirty-office/tabid/1382/articleID/356795/Default.aspx

    Key can’t afford to risk being anything other than upfront and decisive in dealing with this. It’s not the book that will trip him up, it’s how he deals with it – and he learnt that lesson in 2011.

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  125. oldpark (382 comments) says:

    Here we go Hager admits a Dotcon connection.He has been seen licking his well formed backside.Go figure,now where were we with stolen emails.

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  126. ldypen (42 comments) says:

    Milk Me… You sound like the type that enjoys painting at night near campaign signs!?

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  127. publicwatchdog (2,822 comments) says:

    Just heard Sean Plunket’s interviews with Cameron Slater and Nicky Hager.
    When it comes to factual accuracy – I prefer the proven track record of internationally acclaimed investigative journalist Nicky Hager.

    Penny Bright

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  128. Yoza (1,908 comments) says:

    I don’t see why anyone should be whining about Slater’s email being hacked if he is involved in having a disproportionate effect on public policy. This is where such an episode deviates from being comparable to the NSA surreptitiously reading emails – those who are in power or are working directly for those in power should live under the highest level of scrutiny.

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  129. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    … internationally acclaimed …

    Is that like “judicially recognised”?

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  130. PaulL (6,048 comments) says:

    @Yoza: it’s OK to hack emails if the person is famous? Voicemails as well? I’m sure News of the World will be happy to know that.

    I have no particular sympathy for Whale, live by the sword die by the sword I’d say. And I’m not sure he’s actually dying, maybe a better analogy is pigs and muck, and Whale is certainly revelling in rolling around in it.

    I think the links to National in general are tenuous. The Labour database thing is uninteresting to me, it was done to death in 2011. The Judith Collins allegation is the one that I would see as most damaging to National at this stage.

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  131. freemark (616 comments) says:

    Yoza (1,612 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 10:54 am

    “if he is involved in having a disproportionate effect on public policy”

    What a bizarre & dishonest statement.

    Oh, that’s right, you are a Leftie, no surprise.

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  132. Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left (786 comments) says:

    just been reading The Standard….it’s depressing how blind and blinkered the left are…………..they actually think this will swing the election…..

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  133. smttc (763 comments) says:

    And right on cue the Comptroller General of Conspiracy Theories Winston Peters jumps on the bandwagon and accepts Hager’s lines hook line and sinker. It must the story he is relying on to get him over the 5% threshold.

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  134. lastmanstanding (1,302 comments) says:

    And does anyone outside the beltway care a stuff about Nicky Hagar and his wet dreams. NO. Will it have any impact on the Nats NO.

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  135. Paulus (2,668 comments) says:

    What a boor !

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  136. Lance (2,715 comments) says:

    @Mr_Blobby
    Shouldn’t you be at school?.. run along, the grown ups are talking.

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  137. Mr_Blobby (190 comments) says:

    So where are the denials from National.

    A rather sad looking Joyce claiming that they brief Slater like they do any other media.

    If that was even remotely true then we should all be very worried about the democratic process and the influence of lobbyist.

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  138. Mr_Blobby (190 comments) says:

    @ Lance

    Really is that the best you can do.

    What part did you not like best.

    “Well what do we know about Blubber Boy and his Whale scum.

    1. They are nothing but ratings whores.

    2. Some one has served up some of their own medicine and they don’t like it.

    3. We know that Slater (Blubber boy) is a nasty piece of work.

    4. Lift the stone, shine some light and the cockroaches run away. Knock on door from media.

    5. Will blubber on about how unfair life is, but will not want to test the allegation in an open Court.

    And yes Redbaiter Blubber Boy has been “hoist by his own petard”?”

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  139. Redbaiter (9,631 comments) says:

    Funny Thedavincimode isn’t around.

    That dirtbag has spent years stalking me for my criticism of the Nats.

    Thought he’d have the inside running on this story.

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  140. Pete George (23,685 comments) says:

    And right on cue the Comptroller General of Conspiracy Theories Winston Peters jumps on the bandwagon and accepts Hager’s lines hook line and sinker. It must the story he is relying on to get him over the 5% threshold.

    A practiced election opportunist.

    But going in to bat against dirty politics might be a tricky one to remain clean on for him. At least Hager got emails to back up his claims.

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  141. Redbaiter (9,631 comments) says:

    I don’t believe anyone hacked your emails Mr. George.

    I know there are some sick masochists around but I doubt anyone could wish to suffer anything quite as bad as reading scores of emails written by you.

    I’d rather do ten years in D block at Mnt Eden.

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  142. Lance (2,715 comments) says:

    @Mr_Blobby
    You resort to nasty name calling and pathetic negative imagery and expect anyone to take you seriously?

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  143. Pete George (23,685 comments) says:

    I don’t care what you believe Mr Baiter. I have evidence from Google who advised me about it.

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  144. Mr_Blobby (190 comments) says:

    @ Lance

    Big believer in FREE speech don’t hold back tell us what you really think.

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  145. Mr_Blobby (190 comments) says:

    @ Redbaiter

    You called it Red.

    The Whale Scum do not like sunlight as they say.

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  146. Scott Chris (6,177 comments) says:

    just refuse to front Key or Collins on any radio or TV current affair show and let the 72 hour news cycle run until a cat is stuck up in a tree.

    Forget the cat, the next big story is already here:

    The world’s most intelligent gorilla came close to tears after hearing of Robin Williams’ death. http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/10382320/Robin-Williams-mourned-by-his-gorilla-friend

    But seriously, I disagree. A stained dress nearly got Clinton.

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  147. RightNow (6,999 comments) says:

    “The world’s most intelligent gorilla came close to tears after hearing of Robin Williams’ death.”

    I had a laugh at that. Lead story on Stuff… a gorilla’s lip twitched.

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  148. Redbaiter (9,631 comments) says:

    “You called it Red.”

    Progressives have taken over the National Party.

    That’s the real problem.

    If this hadn’t happened, commie scum like Hagar et al wouldn’t have the leverage they now have.

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  149. Fentex (1,038 comments) says:

    Are any of those anti-GCSB protesters going to condemn Nicky Hager and his unknown associate/s for the hack and publication of Cameron Slater’s Gmail and Facebook?

    The State is different from individuals; worries about granting it excessive authority are not the same concerns about individuals breaches of law and regulation.

    Does DPF argue journalists may not snoop or accept information possibly gained at odds with legislation to hold authority to account?

    Because if journalists who want a non-totalitarian government are to be called hypocrites for daring to check governments act within the law by accepting possible breaches of rules and regulations then we shall have a totalitarian government (that claims it is not) through the simple expedient of outlawing telling journalists anything, if journalists are cowed by threat of being called hypocrite.

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  150. Mr_Blobby (190 comments) says:

    I did briefly visit the Whale Oil site yesterday.

    What I noticed was a lot of relatively new posters, with very few posts, jumping to Whale Oils defense, with some gusto.

    There could be more to see there.

    Like a little bot army.

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  151. PaulL (6,048 comments) says:

    Yes Mr_Blobby, like lots of new commenters here, with few comments (say, 120 or so), taking a consistently left wing line. It’s election season, you may have noticed.

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  152. Mr_Blobby (190 comments) says:

    Just checked the Whaleoil site myself.

    Full on damage control.

    Whale oil is going to have to work his little blog bots very hard today.

    Looking at the weak excuses. If a real journalist was found out to be nothing more than a mouth piece for the dirt dished up in such a one sided way.

    They would not last long as a journalist.

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  153. Mr_Blobby (190 comments) says:

    @ PaulL

    Have a closer look they are not hard to find.

    Very few posts.

    Then a big flurry yesterday in defense of Whale Oil.

    Look closer and you will find privacy setting set to the max.

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  154. Mr_Blobby (190 comments) says:

    @ PaulL

    Yes it is election year and Whale Oil have gone out of their way to shut down any dissenting voices.

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  155. RightNow (6,999 comments) says:

    Mr_Blobby (121 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 11:45 am

    Just checked the Whaleoil site myself.

    Cameron says thanks. There’s no bad publicity for Whaleoil.

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  156. Mr_Blobby (190 comments) says:

    You called it well done.

    Refer my previous post.

    “Well what do we know about Blubber Boy and his Whale scum.

    1. They are nothing but ratings whores.

    2. Some one has served up some of their own medicine and they don’t like it.

    3. We know that Slater (Blubber boy) is a nasty piece of work.

    4. Lift the stone, shine some light and the cockroaches run away. Knock on door from media.

    5. Will blubber on about how unfair life is, but will not want to test the allegation in an open Court.

    And yes Redbaiter Blubber Boy has been “hoist by his own petard”?”

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  157. PaulL (6,048 comments) says:

    @Mr_Blobby: sorry, was that too subtle for you. Are you a recent joiner here yourself? Are you a bot?

    I’ll be shedding no tears for Whale, don’t particularly like him nor his site. But it’s not clear to me at all that he’s lost – your assumption is that he’s measuring this based on whether people threw some shit and it stuck. I’d say that he enjoys the bit where the shit sticks, and what he’s measuring is publicity and page views. By those measures, I’d say he just won, which is far from being hoist by his own petard.

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  158. Mr_Blobby (190 comments) says:

    @ PaulL

    Sorry, you are absolutely right. Whale Boy does like rolling around in the shit and he absolutely loves it.

    And it is working for him as a rating whore.

    But long term he will just be another over the hill punch drunk boxer. struggling to spell his own name.

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  159. RRM (10,026 comments) says:

    Sad to see Slater was getting paid (undisclosed) by fonterra to criticise the breastfeeding lobby..

    Disappointing, I thought he was a political commentator writing what he believed in…

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  160. Mr_Blobby (190 comments) says:

    @ RRM

    Sad to see, but are you really surprised.

    My guess is that he is very cheap.

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  161. Lance (2,715 comments) says:

    @PaulL
    Usually newbees build up to being a total troll so either MrBlobby is an exception and is an instant troll or has been re-incarnated from a previous poster (possibly a banned one?).

    He’s killing this thread quite effectively.

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  162. Tauhei Notts (1,749 comments) says:

    Mr Farrar writes that Labour accidentally made the information publicly available.
    I believe the word “incompetently” should be used instead of accidentally.

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  163. polemic (460 comments) says:

    Oh the hypocrisy of the left!!!

    First Whaleoil is so called hacking the Labour Party by reading publically open information on their website.

    But yes Whaleoil is guilty of this charge. They (Labour) were hacked off to be exposed for loose web building.

    Then it isnt hacking or theft to illegally steal someones private information….. they (Hagar & Co )were legally entitled to have this private information. Entitlement is an inherent right of communist/socialist especially if it is for a worthy cause to their ideals.

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  164. ShawnLH (5,756 comments) says:

    “Operation Northwoods says that conspiracy theorists don’t have feeble minds.”

    It does is the only “evidence” of the supposed operation comes from conspiracy theorists.

    When conspiracy theorists can only reference other conspiracy theorists for their claims, they are not credible.

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  165. Richard (873 comments) says:

    Nicky Hager’s attempt to spin a vast sinister illuminati style conspiracy out of some dubiously acquired emails and publicly available info that everyone knows (like DPF is a member of the National party and talks to ministers, party insiders etc about ideas for posts etc in the same way they do on the Left) only shows how dishonest he is by claiming to be an independent journalist and how duplicitous he is by releasing his book of innuendo close to an annual election.

    The emails only show that the Right in New Zealand can be just as keen on eye gouging and street brawling in politics as the Left especially in light of the Left’s various failed attempts to smear John Key in the last two elections (remember the ‘neutron bomb’ on John Key that Left bloggers, broadcasters and Labour party insiders obsessed over which turned out to be another fizzer?).

    Elections should be about policies, government track records and most importantly a vigorous debate of ideas. The Left consistently are failing in all 3 areas in this election (how can you win against falling unemployment ,a 20 year trade surplus high, a strong manufacturing sector despite a high dollar, targeted controls on bank lending successfully cooling the housing market, reversal of the brain drain, big increases in elective surgery, free GP visits and prescriptions for young children, new schools etc all with a budget surplus showing sound economic management and the fundamental common sense idea of equality of opportunity rather than equality of outcome?) and so they have latched onto Mr Hager’s activist pseudo- journalism and smears as a hoped for lifeline. An attempt at mass distraction from the things that actually matter and that are keeping National consistently high in the polls and will see it win this election.
    The only sinister conspiracy here is the curious acquisition of the emails and the writing of Hager’s book of innuendo which might be a conspiracy worth looking into.

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  166. gump (1,662 comments) says:

    @Judith

    I’m sorry but you’re wrong about the allegations that Slater hacked the Labour webserver.

    The files were stored on a publicly browsable folder that was indexed by Google. They should never have been stored there, and the sysadmin responsible should have been sacked for incompetency.

    As much as I dislike Slater (and believe me – I really do), browsing files on a publicly accessible folder is not hacking and is not a crime.

    https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/06/eff-access-public-website-not-crime

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  167. ShawnLH (5,756 comments) says:

    @ Judith

    “Oh, I see, if you leave a window open its okay for a burglar to climb right in?”

    Well, you won’t get an insurance payout for that kind of stupidity.

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  168. Mr_Blobby (190 comments) says:

    @ Lance

    Apologies,not, for having an opinion. And no I have not been “re-incarnated from a previous poster (possibly a banned one?).”

    But I was banned from the Whale Oil site. So I do have an axe to grind. I have another log in but choose not to use it at Whale Oil.

    I came back from a holiday overseas and the Whale Oil site had changed. I noticed that dissenting posts just disappeared I complained and was told that my language was not acceptable. Having reviewed the posts in question they were very tame. I then started posting very sedately, but also criticizing the heavy handed censorship. Went a little over the top once and received a threat from the moderator, another poster went to my defense pointing out that I had merely agreed with another poster and that the response was a bit heavy handed, they were also slapped down.

    My final post was more about censorship than the topic and I was instantly banned.

    Not one to run around behind peoples back I confront Blubber boy at every opportunity personally. I speak very plainly and bluntly to him and will continue to do so. I have very little respect for the Whale Scum he has censoring his Blog.

    He puts up with my insults because we have a shared interest in another piece of scum.

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  169. ShawnLH (5,756 comments) says:

    “When it comes to factual accuracy – I prefer the proven track record of internationally acclaimed investigative journalist Nicky Hager.”

    LMOA!!!!!! :) :) :)

    My God your gullible Penny! :)

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  170. ShawnLH (5,756 comments) says:

    If Hagar was not motivated by partisan politics then why is there nothing in his book about the Standard, Greg Presland, and the setting up of Cunliffe’s secret trust?

    Any apologists for Hagar have an answer for that?

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  171. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    My God your gullible Penny!

    Says the apologist for hypocrisy.

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  172. berend (1,716 comments) says:

    Biked to my local Whitcoulls, and they had 0 copies according to their inventory system. Luckily there was one final copy on the counter, so according to the inventory they now have -1 copies (the guy showed me :-) ). Whatever we may think of the merits of Nicky Hager’s book, I think we should recognise that it is not easy to create a book with this much hype, which sells so many copies in hours.

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  173. Ross12 (1,456 comments) says:

    I see a number of comments about the “standards’ on Whaleoil. Initially I was put off by the language on the site but there has been a major clean up in recent months which is good.

    BUT one thing I can say about Cam , it is very hard to prove what he says is wrong. He gets his facts right especially on major issues. Like DPF he has a go a both sides –there are couple of Govt. Ministers who regularly get a “whipping”.

    He seems to have taken Hager’s book quite calmly — I suspect there is a lot more that he knows and if I was Hager I’d keep my head below the parapet.

    BTW. It seems interesting to me that while the MSM are all over this most commentators are not overly enthusiastic about it. John Campbell, last night, did not seem to be taken in by it , which has to say something. ( apparently Gower is the same)

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  174. Pete George (23,685 comments) says:

    @RadioLIVENZ
    Live at 2pm: @RodneyHide on his chapter in the #Hagerbook.

    That will be interesting. A summary from the book at Dim-Post

    Lusk was hired by Brash to help replace Rodney Hide as leader of the ACT Party. Lusk – evidently without Brash’s knowledge – found out from Jordan Williams that Rodney Hide had been sending ‘dodgy texts’ to a young woman. Slater published hints about this on his blog and Lusk proposed that they approach Hide quietly and ‘tell Hide that someone had the texts and will release them if he doesn’t resign by Friday’. Hide resigned.

    http://dimpost.wordpress.com/2014/08/13/dirty-politics-summary/

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  175. ShawnLH (5,756 comments) says:

    “Says the apologist for hypocrisy.”

    Still pretending you made your case UGlyNazi?

    Nope. Total failure. You lost. You failed to make the case. You could not establish your case without inserting your own opinions and pseudo-logic. That is why you were forced to make statements like “the only reasonable conclusion” which is just stating opinion, not fact.

    You lost. I ran rings around. You ran away like a coward. Get over it. :)

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  176. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    So why won’t you argue the point on GD, then?

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  177. ShawnLH (5,756 comments) says:

    UPDATED 8:54am: Cameron Slater is taking action over the Nicky Hager book.

    The Whale Oil blogger plans to lay a complaint with police over what he says is illegal hacking of his emails.

    Slater told Newstalk ZB he also plans to lay a complaint with the Privacy Commissioner.

    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/auckland/news/nbpol/1598224930-blogger-taking-action-over-hager-s–dirty-politics-

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  178. Psycho Milt (2,419 comments) says:

    If Hagar was not motivated by partisan politics then why is there nothing in his book about the Standard, Greg Presland, and the setting up of Cunliffe’s secret trust?

    Any apologists for Hagar have an answer for that?

    Well, I’m not a journalist or a published author or anything like that, but my amateur guess is that he decided to write the book about the stuff he had evidence for, rather than writing it about stuff that ranters on Kiwiblog like to speculate about.

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  179. ShawnLH (5,756 comments) says:

    “So why won’t you argue the point on GD, then?”

    There is nothing more to argue. You have no evidence. Unless you have new evidence, which I suspect would just more uninformed opinion, there is nothing left to argue about in the first place.

    You entire case rests on a highly opinion filled reading of the text. This is called eisegesis, and it would get your views thrown out in an academic setting.

    Face it. You lost. Move on.

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  180. ShawnLH (5,756 comments) says:

    Psycho

    ” but my amateur guess is that he decided to write the book about the stuff he had evidence for, ”

    You mean stuff he wanted “evidence” for, and stuff he didn’t want to have “evidence” for.

    That would be more honest.

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  181. burt (8,316 comments) says:

    RE: The hacked Labour website.

    That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. That area of their website was wide open viewable from a normal browser. After Slater published the details it was still live on their site – I went there myself and was able to view it until they took it down an hour or so later.

    But lets get this clear: Viewing an unprotected area on a public website is hacking and people need to resign over this – but hacking a computer and stealing information that was secured with user names and passwords is OK and makes Hager a hero of the left.

    Typical lefties… It’s different when they do it !

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  182. Jack5 (5,163 comments) says:

    Berend posted at 1.37:

    Whatever we may think of the merits of Nicky Hager’s book, I think we should recognise that it is not easy to create a book with this much hype, which sells so many copies in hours.

    C’mon, the whole point of Hager the Horrible’s PR coup was to sell his book. The MSM has taken the hook and swallowed the bullshit bait, and Hager the Horrible and his publisher are laughing all the way to the bank.

    It’s a con, a publishing con.

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  183. Igotta Numbum (466 comments) says:

    Psycho Milt (2,306 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 1:46 pm

    Well, I’m not a journalist or a published author or anything like that, but my amateur guess is that he decided to write the book about the stuff he had evidence for, rather than writing it about stuff that ranters on Kiwiblog like to speculate about.

    Except that on NewsTalkZB this morning, Hagar openly admitted that nothing in his book was verified. No evidence, just loose innuendo and making squiggly lines to try and ensure dots connect to match his narrative.

    You’re right about you being an amateur.

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  184. Pete George (23,685 comments) says:

    Felix Geiringer ‏@BarristerNZ

    It is my opinion that #DirtyPolitics provides compelling evidence that @JudithCollinsMP did leak the @michelleboag/@bronwynpullar email.

    @BrookSabin

    John Key will “go away and look at” claims Judith Collins got a prisoner moved for Cameron Slater. But isn’t concerned by book “at all”

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  185. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    There is nothing more to argue.

    We could always argue (on GD, preferably) about the way that you assumed that you had won after you posted this, Shawn:

    UglyTruth (4,435 comments) says:
    August 12th, 2014 at 10:56 pm

    That was hilarious.
    Goodnight.
    Vote: Thumb up 3 Thumb down 1

    ShawnLH (4,203 comments) says:
    August 12th, 2014 at 10:58 pm

    Lost again Ugly. Run away like a coward, like a good little Jew hating Nazi coward eh? :)
    Vote: Thumb up 1 Thumb down 3

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  186. Scott Chris (6,177 comments) says:

    As much as I dislike Slater (and believe me – I really do), browsing files on a publicly accessible folder is not hacking and is not a crime.

    Maybe not but I’d say the actions of Jason Ede are dodgy at best. Mind you, that’s the nature of his business:

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  187. Jack5 (5,163 comments) says:

    Felix Geiringer! That’s an interesting name to introduce in this thread, Pete ( PG’s 1.55 post).

    This guy seems to be a lawyer who does a lot of Treaty work and has worked for the Maori council. The interesting bit in the Fairfax biographical piece I link to below is that Geiringer was originally a a very bright mathematician, worked in IT, and is something of an expert in cryptology, and has patents in in it. An extract from the article.

    On that IT job in the UK, he produced a handful of cryptology patents. “I didn’t just sit in the office and bide my time.” (You can look them up on Google patents; they’re for things like “parallel modulo arithmetic using bitwise logical operations”, and some are cited in further patents for Apple and Intel.)

    The link: http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7415536/More-than-a-lawman

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  188. goldnkiwi (1,542 comments) says:

    Thumb up 6 Thumb down 1
    RightNow (6,718 comments) says:

    August 14th, 2014 at 9:31 am
    Funny and ironic.

    Is that like cookies and the members only ‘Justice for Robin Bain Group’ or what ever it was called ‘Judith’ and infiltrating the Justice for Robin Bain facebook page? How ironic, you never seem to have had a problem with that.

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  189. Pete George (23,685 comments) says:

    Hide says first he heard of supposed “dodgy texts” was last night when news called. He says no truth to exchange between Slater and Lusk.

    Hide: “If someone came and attempted to blackmail me, I would’ve said I’m not going.. and my next phone call would have been to the police.”

    Jordan Williams ‏@JordNZ

    Rodney Hide has just set record straight on @RadioLIVENZ. No blackmail in Brash coup. The Hagar comments on me/Brash campaign are a smear.

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  190. gump (1,662 comments) says:

    I look forward to Slater explaining why it is perfectly acceptible for him to publish emails stolen from Matt Blomfield, but not acceptable for Nicky Hager to publish emails stolen from Slater.

    His hypocrisy is breath-taking.

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  191. rangikemara (1 comment) says:

    “Is it not ironic that so many on the left have marched and protested against the right of the GCSB to assist the SIS or the Police to intercept communications”

    The approach here is to conflate the fear of a Stazi state by extending too much power to Govt spy agencies i.e. the protests against the GCSB, with a hack attack on a National Party spin doctor who cannot protect his stuff online. They are two completely different issues of course.

    “Yet when we get evidence of a massive criminal hacking of six years of personal communications, then they do not see that as dirty politics.”

    Here we see the messenger being attacked with the same inference as if Hager was himself behind the hack attempts. If this is difficult for you to grasp David, then try imagine it was Slater receiving internal emails of Kim Dotcom and your highly probable equal and opposite elation.

    All in all a nice attempt at trying to divert the public discourse. Any spin doctor with any salt would try this on, its spin-alley 101.

    The contents of the book dwarf the methods of attaining the content though, and you are not doing your ‘wing’ any favours with these over used misdirection techniques.

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  192. Pete George (23,685 comments) says:

    Yes gump, but so is Hager’s hypocrisy breath-taking, being strongly against gathering any sort of spy data, plus one of his strongest criticisms in the book is of Slater getting data off a Labour server while he is using arguably illegally obtained data.

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  193. Jack5 (5,163 comments) says:

    Re gump at 2.34:

    So you are saying Hager the Horrible is handling stolen goods?

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  194. RightNow (6,999 comments) says:

    gump (1,531 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 2:34 pm

    I look forward to Slater explaining …

    It’s on his blog. Sorry if that means you’ve got nothing to look forward to any more. Maybe you could plan to cut your toenails on the weekend.

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  195. gump (1,662 comments) says:

    @Jack5

    “So you are saying Hager the Horrible is handling stolen goods?”

    ——————–

    Yes – it’s pretty obvious that Slater’s emails were stolen by somebody who passed them to Hagar. How else could he have obtained them?

    It’s equally clear that Matt Blomfield’s emails were stolen.

    I’m not sure why it’s ok for Slater to publish other people’s stolen emails, but not ok for other people to publish his.

    Slater likes to quote from the Bible. Perhaps he should meditate on the following verse:

    Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. (Matthew 26:52, King James Version)

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  196. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    it’s pretty obvious that Slater’s emails were stolen…

    If I take any information from you without your consent, is that theft (like information about your appearance, for example)?
    Where do you draw the line?

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  197. gump (1,662 comments) says:

    @UglyTruth

    “Where do you draw the line?”

    ——————-

    I am using the word “stolen” in its common language sense, not the sense defined by the Crimes Act.

    Though in the case of Matt Blomfield, somebody literally stole his emails when they pinched an external hard-disk from his office.

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  198. PaulL (6,048 comments) says:

    Yeah, we got this pin dancing with the Brash e-mails, and some other e-mails that I’ve forgotten. I think the legal type people at the time said that it wasn’t stealing. The law around stealing is based around depriving someone of use – so if you copy something that someone has, but they still have a copy, that’s not formally stealing. It may be theft though perhaps, or maybe it was copyright violation, or unauthorised access, can’t remember. It’s potentially illegal though, and I think that Hager has clearly said that he believes the e-mails were illegally obtained. So I’m not sure the legality is in dispute, the bigger question is whether receiving illegally copied e-mails is in itself illegal. I suspect not, and I think that’s why Whale is focusing on proceeds of crime, and whether Hager, as not being a real journalist, can be forced to reveal his sources.

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  199. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    I am using the word “stolen” in its common language sense, not the sense defined by the Crimes Act.

    OK, in common language, if I took your photo without your permission, would that be theft?
    If not, then how is it different to taking information in other forms, eg taking a copy of information stored on your phone without permission?

    Though in the case of Matt Blomfield, somebody literally stole his emails when they pinched an external hard-disk from his office.

    Sure, they deprived him of the information when they deprived him of the hardware that it was stored on.

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  200. Scott1 (576 comments) says:

    “Hide says first he heard of supposed ‘dodgy texts’ was last night when news called. He says no truth to exchange between Slater and Lusk.”

    In that case you know he is lying.
    That being said, it would be a daring person who decided to blackmail him. You never know when your leverage might disappear and it might blow up in your face.

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  201. Scott1 (576 comments) says:

    Maybe you would do it in a subtle way, like the below.

    “You know this guy has some dirt on you.. I’m your mate and I’ll try to stop him… but he plans to publish these things if you are still leader in X days time.. I don’t know how many copies he has.. He’s a pretty crazy supporter of Dono, and he’s willing to kill ACT if he doesn’t get his way… you know I think he will do it… Tell me if you have any ideas how we can deal with this… but I can’t think of anything… Just tell me what your plan is – I got your back…”

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  202. dad4justice (8,313 comments) says:

    Does fatty Whale Oil and Hagar the wimp have real jobs or suck from the socialist tit like the parasitic lying pollies do?

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  203. goldnkiwi (1,542 comments) says:

    UglyTruth (4,451 comments) says:

    August 14th, 2014 at 6:11 pm

    Interesting the question regarding ownership of images, in light of the monkey selfie. Is it the camera owner, the picture taker, the subject, the commissioner of said photo,(if there is one), intellectual property, permission, convention, common law?

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  204. Reid (16,634 comments) says:

    What’s the bet Hagar’s spent more on lawyers vetting his book than he’ll ever make from its sales?

    And what does that say about his motives?

    And who would have the money to cover him off, if he’s going to be sued?

    Because as we know, hacking is not the same as looking at a publicly available website published by IT morons. Which given the massive publicity over this, lays Hagar wide open to have his pants sued off him by Whale.

    Doesn’t it.

    Not to mention the exposure the certain legal action will require from the sources who’ve rather foolishly furnished Hagar with the information on which he’s based his book, when it comes to requiring Hagar to reveal his sources. And which, if it is successful, may expose an even bigger whale, in due course.

    And which, if it’s not successful, will reverse the very same ratio decidendi Whale’s been fighting in his battle to get himself the same legal protections “real” journos have.

    So either way, Whale wins.

    Hoo Rah.

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  205. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    I just love the apologists in here.

    Trying so hard to brush aside the dirty politics, by trying to blame someone using hacked emails against Slater.

    Slater has stooped to using every low tactic available to him – he has stolen people’s information, colluded with Ministers, attacked and deliberately exaggerated and destroyed people’s careers, and private individuals reputations in some sort of sick game, often without any purpose other than to impress his friends – all verifiable in those emails.

    But that’s all brushed aside by those trying hard to retain some dignity in this and they excuse Slaters behaviour because someone took information from him – treated him like he’s treated many others – oh the hypocrisy!!

    Hager has hundreds of emails from Slater regarding his personal relationships and family etc – he has stated he will not publish or use those in any way – and I ask – if the roles were reversed, do you believe Slater would be as generous? I think we all know the answer to that.

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  206. Judith (8,534 comments) says:

    @ Reid (16,037 comments) says:
    August 14th, 2014 at 7:00 pm

    Oh yeah, because its all about money isn’t it – too bad for the disgusting filthy politics that some of our ministers are taking part in – too bad about the hypocrisy of National accusing everyone else of, when they are knee deep in it themselves.

    Keep shooting the messenger Reid – but it won’t discount what Slater and his ‘friends’ have done to this country.

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  207. PaulL (6,048 comments) says:

    @Judith: but that’s the point. Slater does bad things. No news there. He looked at data on Labour web servers that they left accessible. Done to death in 2011. He’s friends of Collins, and Collins is a hard lady who in private says nasty things about people she doesn’t like. Tick, knew that too.

    What we have beyond the things we already knew is that National leaked stuff to media, including Whale Oil. Ummmmmm, is this news?

    Really all we have is that Whale is a nasty piece of work, and Hager would like to smear National by association.

    By that logic, we could all agree that The Standard is often a sewer, and publish the most outlandish conspiracy theories. They’re mean to people. Some of the posters there are known activists inside left wing parties, some even in the leader’s office. Labour often leak stuff to them. So….what’s the news here? At least Whale was never hosted on National party servers!!

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  208. Reid (16,634 comments) says:

    disgusting filthy politics that some of our ministers are taking part in

    So Hulun didn’t engage in that Judith? Tell us another…

    Cancerous and corrosive ring a bell? Speeding and letting her own driver take the fall? Haters and wreckers. Electoral Finance Act.

    Blah blah blah blah blah.

    …what Slater and his ‘friends’ have done to this country is nothing and never will be anything compared to what that hate-filled, spite-filled individual did to it, Judith.

    Unless and until you accept that reality my friend, you’ll never ever in any way, achieve balance, poise and frankly, good judgement.

    Sure, Key and Whale et al represent conservative values. The thing people like you don’t yet seem to have grasped Judith, is that does not make them inherently evil.

    It doesn’t make them good, either, but it doesn’t make them evil.

    And you must know from for example the recent Israeli threads my stance on many conservative memes (when they are memes and not real) is mistaken by conservatives as being on the left, so you might want to get a clue, and recognise a vapid contrived hit piece for a vapid contrived hit piece, even when its coming from your “own” side and start thinking for yourself, instead of following the sheeple, in your part of the paddock.

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  209. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    What strike is Collins on again?

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  210. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    I’m still not sure why when you receive stolen goods you get locked up and when you sell those goods you get locked up even longer

    But if you steal someone’s property and use it to write a book you become a hero for the left and the MSM lap it up

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  211. ex-golfer (167 comments) says:

    Don’t shoot the messenger?
    How hilarious.
    Someone can write and allege, often with no firm proof at all and mainly based on stolen personal emails of conversation between friends, sell a book and make money out of it and you tell us not to shoot the messenger?
    What planet are you on? Planet Lack of Reality by the sounds of it.
    Get real Judith – this is a shitty and dirty game played by ALL sides.
    And the fact that Labour party members are pretending to be all shocked at the nicknames they have earned just makes them look even more foolish and Class-A hypocrites. WhaleOil makes no secret of the various nicknames – he uses them all the time. Just as members of the Labour party do.
    Another non-revelation.

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  212. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    “I would have preferred to carry through to the finish whatever the personal agony it would have involved, and my family unanimously urged me to do so. But the interest of the Nation must always come before any personal considerations.”

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  213. Evadne (88 comments) says:

    Oh, Judith, I know you rant a lot about things you have no clue about, but really, please don’t throw out such uninformed accusations as your one above at 7:06, about Cam Slater’s approach to personal information.

    You ask: “if the roles were reversed, do you believe Slater would be as generous? I think we all know the answer to that.”

    We do, actually. For example, in the course of his investigative inquiries (you know, the things investigative journalists do) he uncovered a substantial amount of information about Len Brown – which he decided not to publish – or even hint at. It’s Hager who’s spilt the beans on that: http://www.whaleoil.co.nz/2014/08/shock-cameron-slater-tried-dig-dirt-len-brown/

    We can all admit that Cam Slater is not perfect; that politics & journalism are murky, and no doubt we all have an opinion about which degree of murkiness is unacceptable. Throwing out unsubstantiated and patently false slander is usually beyond that line.

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  214. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    @goldnkiwi

    Common law refers to equity as a separate realm, and equity is better suited for questions like this one where there is no governing contract. At equity any value arising out of the original matter is shared pro-rata, and it is up to the trustee or trustees to administer this so that equity is preserved.

    Wikimedia declares itself to be a non-profit organization, so unless Wikimedia is making some kind of capital from hosting the selfie then David Slater doesn’t have much of an argument for lost revenue (assuming there’s no plaigarisation). It could just as easily be argued that Wikimedia’s exposure is generating more interest in Slater’s work as it could be argued that he’s losing business because of it.

    The way I see it Slater has the role of trustee, and it’s up to him to share the value equitably with the artists themselves.

    As far as copyright goes, I think Wikimedia is correct in saying that there isn’t anything applicable.

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  215. KevinH (1,236 comments) says:

    One thing for sure is that this book will be the shot in the arm this election needs to raise awareness and get people thinking but the reality is that this book is round 1 in Blog Wars, Hagar vs Slater. The next few weeks should be interesting with claim after counter claim and the election result will be telling.

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  216. Mr_Blobby (190 comments) says:

    Wonder how many of the apologists on here have seen a copy of the book.

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  217. Reid (16,634 comments) says:

    Wonder how many of the apologists on here have seen a copy of the book.

    One thing’s for sure. If there is even a teeny tiny scrawny skerrick in it, the media will be going absolutely insane between now and the election.

    Let’s see what they do.

    Me?

    I predict the news cycle after this coming Sunday’s breathless, hopeful, desperate “expose” will move on and by this time next time, it’s going to be “Nicky What?” amongst the floater community who are so sadly drifting ever further away from the fools and morons who misunderstand precisely what most of the country seems to recognise: Key is not evil, Key is not selfish, Key is not going to be painted as you lefties wish him to be painted, just because you lefties wish him so to be painted. And you can’t stand that, can you.

    I know it worked very successfully in reverse for you with Hulun, I mean how much lipstick did you have to import to paint that pig? But you just can’t stand it, can you. That without any lipstick at all, the Key you hallucinate so desperately everyone hates, isn’t hated at all, in any way whatsoever.

    Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

    That’s why you can’t afford anything isn’t it, Blobby. You spent it all on lies and innuendo and now it’s going nowhere. At all.

    Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

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  218. Dead Earnest (160 comments) says:

    Seeing Trick Nicky is such a great stickler for transparency, he will doubtless be happy to answer the following questions. (If our fawning MSM journalists ever get around to asking them
    1. How many times did he visit the Coatsville mansion?
    2. What did he discuss with Krim Dotcom?
    3. Was Krim Dotcom aware of the DOS attack on Slater’s computer?
    4. Was Krim Dotcom involved in the DOS attack on Slater’s computer?
    5. Has he recieved any money from Krim Dotcom
    My gut feeling is that another “useful idiot” has been drawn into the malignant orbit of a foreign criminal determined to manipulate our electoral system to pervert the course of justice.

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  219. Nookin (3,467 comments) says:

    “Hager has hundreds of emails from Slater regarding his personal relationships and family etc – he has stated he will not publish or use those in any way – and I ask – if the roles were reversed, do you believe Slater would be as generous? I think we all know the answer to that.”

    Given them back to their lawful owner then, has he? Or is he keeping them for future advantage?

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  220. RightNow (6,999 comments) says:

    “Keep shooting the messenger”
    Wait, what? Hager is only a messenger? Who’s he working for? DC?

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  221. dad4justice (8,313 comments) says:

    Clearly Whale Oil should be in a mental hospital behind locked doors. You have just cost National many votes down here you fat dumbarse!

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/10385310/Earthquake-victims-scum-says-blogger

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  222. Nostalgia-NZ (5,281 comments) says:

    Of course Hager is, like any writer able to freely visit where he likes – whether the visit may or may not be for a book being researched. In fact that right applies to anybody, odd though it may seem.

    Nookin, I detect a frustration with you – almost as if your usual neutrality is wearing thin these days. Any reason for that, if it’s true of course.

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  223. polemic (460 comments) says:

    The biggest thing getting overlooked here is that these were private conversations after all not public.

    What does freedom of speech mean??

    Surely you should be free to say or email what you think or feel with out getting publicly exposed … How many of you all that are spouting and attacking here have said things that they feel keenly about

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  224. freemark (616 comments) says:

    So, on one hand we have selective quoting from stolen private email conversations between a blogger and his friend. On the other hand we have a blog that hosts Q&A’s with Cunliffe, is fed information from the highest Parliamentary levels of Labour, Greens, Mana/IP etc, and has many Left MP’s & senior staffers commenting under pseudonym. Here is a small sample when you search for scum.. hypocrisy much?

    marty mars 6.2.1.1
    7 August 2014 at 12:22 pm
    I agree – it shows how low and scum-like key is

    bad12 4.1.2.1
    15 July 2014 at 9:19 am
    i was considering commenting to you SSLands on ‘owning’ and ‘dogs’, however self moderation has me loath to avail you of my exact thoughts on these subjects vis a vis ‘you’,

    There is no need of you to remind us that you are in fact ACT scum, that fact drips from every word that you publish here…

    Enough is Enough …
    7 July 2014 at 3:40 pm
    Anyway, its been good chatting with you OAB.

    Whatever strategy we take into this scrap, I hope in three months we are debating the priorities of the new Green/Labour government, and can forget about Key and his scum tory mob forever.

    amirite: Comment:Open mike 07/08/2014
    Date published: 7:15 am, August 7th, 2014
    If Labour wants us to ‘vote positive’, their candidates shouldn’t associate with scum like Slater and Farrar.

    Jenny 6
    24 July 2014 at 5:59 am
    Will Labour back down to TVNZ?

    And let them have that vile Right wing scum bag moderate the election leaders debate?

    marty mars 4
    11 July 2014 at 1:02 pm
    What low scum these gnats are – they attack the most vulnerable, those who need help the most and then they laugh over their slobbering chins when those people suffer – a reckoning is coming.

    phillip ure: Comment:Open mike 03/07/2014
    Date published: 5:52 pm, July 3rd, 2014
    …/poorest/sickest.. ..fucken rand-ite scum that they are.. ..i hope…

    Blue: Comment:The dirtiest election campaign backfires
    Date published: 11:23 am, June 19th, 2014
    … that National are dirty little scum merchants and that the Herald…

    One Anonymous Bloke: Comment:Open mike 18/06/2014
    Date published: 2:13 pm, June 18th, 2014
    As a Green voter I prefer that the country not be governed by right wing scum with transparent double standards to go with their witless incompetence.

    One Anonymous Bloke: Comment:James Macbeth Dann, an introduction, and a bit about Rebuilding Christchurch
    Date published: 1:14 pm, June 18th, 2014
    Karma is far too random and uncertain a process to rely on it to deal to Tory scum. We need something more direct. For the children.

    A small sample of the holier than thou real nasties in the blogosphere…

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  225. UglyTruth (4,552 comments) says:

    So, on one hand we have selective quoting from stolen private email conversations between a blogger and his friend.

    Like I’ve said before, the email conversations were copied, not stolen. If you carry on supporting the US copyright industry you are just going to end up looking like another dumbarse.

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  226. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    “Wonder how many of the apologists on here have seen a copy of the book.”

    Like John Key and the Police report on John Banks most apologists are desperately avoiding reading the Hagar book. That doesn’t stop them trashing it though.

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  227. Mr_Blobby (190 comments) says:

    People seem to be having trouble sourcing a copy, seems to be a top seller.

    There will be no shortage of troglodytes ready to follow John Key off the cliff.

    Sad when people don’t seem to have the ability to question the official party line.

    Blind faith.

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  228. deadrightkev (532 comments) says:

    All this is muck raking is good for the Conservative party polling.

    The CP will no doubt keep pushing principle, ethical standards and straight dealing to make them look the part of purity. They sure look to be gaining momentum with Christine Rankin and Garth McVicar climbing on board. That is quite a coup.

    If the pressure is kept up by Labour, Greens and NZF (and they have nothing else going for them lets face it) it will push more and more fringe voters away from National and John Key to the Conservatives.

    Last election Winston was revived by a National brain fart, this election it may be the Conservatives that get the National bonus payout. Its funny how the worm turns. More power to Colin Craig too I say. NZ needs some fresh straight politicians.

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