Joyce attacks Labour xenophobia

August 2nd, 2014 at 2:04 pm by David Farrar

The Herald reports:

Economic Development Minister has accused of “” in their opposition of the potential sale of Lochinver Station to the Chinese company that bought the Crafar Farms.

Mr Joyce and Grant Robertson, economic development spokesman for Labour, appeared on TV3’s The Nation this morning and discussed the sale.

Mr Robertson said under Labour the sale would not go ahead.

“Our criteria would definitely mean that a sale like this would be highly unlikely.”

Mr Joyce said the opposition were “electioneering” in relation to the issue.

“When did [Labour] go out and oppose the purchase of James Cameron’s land?”

“A little xenophobia from the Labour Party to start the day,” he said.

Cameron is becoming a resident, but you rarely hear Labour attack Harvard University for land purchases, Shania Twain, Australians or Canadians. But if it is Chinese, then they have lots to say.

Mr Joyce said the Lochinver Station was a “ridiculously small amount of land” in the North Island to sell off.

The Lochinver sheep and beef farm site is valued at $70 million and covers 13,800ha.

That’s 138 square kms. Around 0.05% of NZ. At this rate China will own all our land in the year 3,956. Panic, panic, everyone.

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97 Responses to “Joyce attacks Labour xenophobia”

  1. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    But we New Zealanders can buy land in Australia, Canada, and the US, but not in China.

    Even John Key seems to have mixed views on sales of NZ land to foreigners:

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10656731

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  2. smttc (752 comments) says:

    Has Labour actually put up a policy to change the Overseas Investment Act? That’s what Robertson seems to be suggesting. Is it a no farm land sales policy?

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  3. jp_1983 (212 comments) says:

    Labour opposes all foreigners

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  4. Redbaiter (8,804 comments) says:

    Where would the friends of Communist China be without their catchcry of “xenophobia”.

    Like there is no political dimension to the Chinese Communist Dictatorship currying political influence while its agents are buying up land around the Pacific Rim, Africa, Sth America, Sth China Seas and the Pacific ocean. At the same time as they conduct an unprecedented military buildup of planes, aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines.

    Just say it was Russia doing all of this. Would you still call objectors “xenophobic”?

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  5. freemark (580 comments) says:

    “At this rate China will own all our land in the year 3,956. Panic, panic, everyone”
    But, but.. we will all be by the year 2100:
    a) fried by AGW
    b) inundated by typhoons or sea level rises caused by AGW
    c) extinct due to all babies being eaten by the 1% rich white capitalist men
    d) dead from boredom waiting for peak oil, peak fish, peak something
    e) any combination of the above

    Unless of course we raise taxes, by which mysterious mechanism all will be sorted.
    :)

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  6. anticorruptionnz (215 comments) says:

    Fictional company ultimately owns large chunk of NZ
    http://www.anticorruption.co.nz/2014/08/02/fictional-company-ultimately-owns-large-chunk-of-nz/

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  7. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    I agree with Jack5.
    No problem with the Chinese buying NZ land as long as we are allowed to buy Chinese land.

    However, where was the outcry when Shania Twain bought 33,000 ha of land?

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  8. JC (955 comments) says:

    Lochinver is unusual in that its been in the same ownership for the past 56 years. However, its neighbour (and once part of Lochinver) Poronui Station (7000ha) has a more varied ownership. I’ll skip most of the owners and concentrate on just a few..

    In 1918 the station was owned by an Englishman.
    In 1967 it was owned by Salt Lake City Mormons (does El Rancho Poronui ring any bells?)
    In the 1980s it was owned by an Englishman
    In 1998 it was owned by an American family out of San Francisco
    And the current owner is a US family and group out of Alabama

    So how many of these foreign owners did the media and Labour and the left rage on about?

    I might add Poronui is world famous for its fishing, hunting, farming, Lodge, accommodation, scenary and generous hosting.. thats what you get from foreign owners.. money and potentially a huge diversity of activities and income streams.

    JC

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  9. mjw (396 comments) says:

    Wrong target. Winston is leading the charge on this one. Why isn’t Joyce attacking him?

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  10. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Other_Andy at 2.33 asked where was the outcry when Shania Twain bought Otago land.

    There were protests and conditions were set, Andy, though admittedly not as widespread as those against purchases by Communist Chinese, who don’t allow NZ investors to buy land in China:

    http://pub40.bravenet.com/forum/static/show.php?usernum=3374791773&%20frmid=956&%20msgid=394912

    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/10/1068329489575.html?from=storyrhs

    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/10/1068329489575.html?from=storyrhs

    http://www.dunedintv.co.nz/content/shania-twain-granted-consent-house

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  11. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    Jack5 points out:

    But we New Zealanders can buy land in Australia, Canada, and the US, but not in China

    Because you won’t find a race [insert preferred term here] than the Chinese.

    a. more xenophobic
    b. smarter at negotiating deals that benefit mostly them

    While we’re busy debating whether the TPPA benefits one country or sector more than the other, the Chinese simply say “these are our terms, take it or leave it”.

    And always, New Zealand takes it. God help us if Senator Penny Wong ever becomes PM of Australia. Our politicians have become so conditioned to capitulating if there’s an Asian across the negotiating table that we’ll be Australia’s penal colony and uranium dump by lunchtime.

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  12. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    “In the 1980s it was owned by an Englishman”

    The big tall Englishman wasn’t a bad bloke and featured I believe as a Taupo Councillor.

    I can’t remember his name but his son Shawn went on to found Helisika if my memory serves me well?

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  13. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    JC posted at 2.38:

    thats what you get from foreign owners.. money and potentially a huge diversity of activities and income streams.

    But JC, NZ farmers are right at the forefront of the technology. These owners bring no expertise or technology.

    Foreign investment is great when it builds a country, but what do the Chinese bring to the table in NZ agriculture apart from cash, and upward pressure on land prices, which ultimately makes profitability harder to achieve for NZ farmers?

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  14. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    This issue is potentially a big vote loser for National. Why aren’t we focusing on trying to find a way out of this problem for John Key and National instead of trying to justify selling chunks of the country to state-capitalist croneys of the Chinese Communist Party?

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  15. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    That would be “cronies” Jack5! :)

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  16. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Thank you, Johnboy, cronies they are!

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  17. freemark (580 comments) says:

    Rex.
    I see NZ “capitulating” far more to the UN multi headed beast than any other organisation, treaty or country.
    If there is any over riding philosophy (ideology) that this centre right Govt has subscribed to, or lead NZ in to, it is personal responsibility, free trade etc – although I agree like others that the necessity to get re-elected incurs a too large degree of compromise & soft socialism.
    I am more in favour of selling 100 year leases however..but as we all know (and the overseas purchasers should as well) after around 150 years if we as NZers stamp our feet hard enough we will be more than compensated (by someone) for the “injustice” of selling our land.

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  18. Chuck Bird (4,880 comments) says:

    Xenophobic, homophobic, sexist, racist etc are terms used when one does not have a logical government. If a German or Canadian buys land they are buying it for themselves or a private company not for the country they are a citizen of. When Chinese buy land they are closely linked with a communist dictatorship.

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  19. lurcher1948 (151 comments) says:

    This could be a game changer,Auckland is asia thats all you see trying to kill you on the roads and now a communist company is buying more of NZ but we will see some former piece of rubbish PM like jenny shitlley or other ex NATIONAL rubbish on their board, we are chinese we buy YOU CANNOT in the homeland thanks John Key and OUR national party THE DONATION IS IN THE BANK, and take a free trip to your masters homeland COMMUNIST CHINA

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  20. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Another well thought out and coherent argument by lurcher. :)

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  21. freemark (580 comments) says:

    We are surely privileged to have such erudite, articulate, educated and balanced comments from the likes of lurcher1948.
    Without doubt a Liarbore/Gimp fan, with a fiendish ability to collate the most unhinged, nasty & dishonest statements from various lefty blogs for our enlightenment.
    Thanks Lurch – you reinforce to most KB viewers the lefty mindset..

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  22. Other_Andy (2,676 comments) says:

    Chuck Bird says:

    “Xenophobic, homophobic, sexist, racist etc are terms used when one does not have a logical government.”

    You mean logical argument?

    And you forgot Griff’s favourites, wingnut and denier.

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  23. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    @freemark

    I agree we often pay too much heed to the UN. But I’m not aware of them owning large chunks of our land and thus agricultural production capacity.

    And in fact the heed we pay is often no more than lip service. What people often don’t realise is that unless a country codifies the provisions of an UN codes, agreements etc in statute, they’re unenforceable. If I had $5 for each person who’s said to me “But Australian is a signatory to the UN covenant on human rights so I can win my case by showing they’re breaching it…” only to have to have it explained that, unlike NZ, Australia doesn’t even have a BORA & it’s constitution is basically silent on civil rights, and thus signing the UN’s bit of paper was nothing more than a photo op…

    Australia is almost certainly in breach of several UN agreements in its handling of boat people (whether or not you agree with that policy, a simple reading of the agreements can leave you in no doubt), but so what? Practical effect is zero.

    OTOH, our largest and second largest farms owned by a somewhat hostile Communist government at a time it wouldn’t take much to see significant food shortages… that can’t be so easily undone, or ignored.

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  24. lurcher1948 (151 comments) says:

    Johnboy (15,026 comments) says:
    August 2nd, 2014 at 3:12 pm
    Another well thought out and coherent argument by lurcher. :)

    it was well thought out, most NZs see rich asians roaming our country, and they think fuck we the honkeys ripped the horis with trinklets and rorted said horis with muskets now the slits are bribing us with $2 shops and putting National shit like Shitley on there boards for respectably. It just needs the consevative leader to fire up the unwashed masses that the slits OWN NZ

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  25. JC (955 comments) says:

    “I can’t remember his name but his son Shawn went on to found Helisika if my memory serves me well?”

    Cant recall. Wasn’t Simon Dickie involved with that?

    JC

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  26. anticorruptionnz (215 comments) says:

    the reality is that we dont know who has bought this land it was purchased by a New Zealand company PENGXIN NEW ZEALAND FARM GROUP LIMITED which is 100% owned by MILK NEW ZEALAND HOLDING LIMITED which in turn is owned by the fictional company Milk New Zealand Investment Limited.

    Pengxin owns 76 titles

    Try doing this in china and not face the firing squad.

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  27. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    Can’t remember JC. Never flew with Shawn when he was piloting only later with Heliseeker. Still based at Poronui though.

    Took a walking trip through the Ohaoko Saddle to the Kaipo many years ago. Gave his old man a bottle of black label as a thank you. Bloody good bloke he was, though much maligned by the local hunters!

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  28. JC (955 comments) says:

    “But JC, NZ farmers are right at the forefront of the technology. These owners bring no expertise or technology.”

    Here’s the conundrum, the Greens say our agriculture is pants and we rely too much on it but in the same breath try to stop foreign money coming in that would help diversify the economy.
    There’s also another reason why real big money and long term planning and patience is necessary for Lochinver which I might mention when the deal is fully done.

    Meantime, Lochinver is *big* and selling it to locals simply means no breakthrough into other ventures or diversifications because of the short term need for debt payments and quick profits. New Zealanders often have great ideas but not the money, markets, R&D and fresh thinking that foreigners can bring or buy.

    JC

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  29. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    JC posted at 3.44:

    … foreign money coming in that would help diversify the economy…

    How does foreign money coming in without expertise diversify the economy?

    Spell it out please, JC.

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  30. Scott1 (549 comments) says:

    I was just thinking..
    if the foreigners buy all our land – then they are the ones in trouble.
    100% of the land and none of the voting rights – means taxation law might not exactly be biased in their favor.

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  31. JC (955 comments) says:

    “Can’t remember JC. Never flew with Shawn when he was piloting only later with Heliseeker. Still based at Poronui though.”

    I don’t think I ever had anything to do with Poronui.. more with 60/8, Lochinver, TDC forest, Land and Scurvy Matea blocks and down the road to about Glenfalls.

    However the shepherds at Lochinver told me about the best time they had was when the Lord of the Rings was being filmed on the rougher country out back. A whole bunch a females had to come charging over a hill waving swords in absolutely filthy weather and after the scene they were drenched and turning blue.. before they were allowed into one of those monster caravans with the showers they had to strip everything off before an admiring audience of locals.

    JC

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  32. Boris Piscina (53 comments) says:

    The trouble with arguing in the court of public opinion is that public opinion doesn’t obey the rules demanded in any other court.

    Englishmen aren’t really regarded as foreigners even now, and back then they actually weren’t, even legally.

    Australians aren’t really regarded as foreigners even though they irritate us quite a lot.

    Even Americans aren’t really regarded as foreigners, or at least not in the same sense as other, more foreign, foreigners.

    Sharia Twain is exempt on two counts, being 1) she’s a hot chick and therefore not eligible for criticism, and 2) she’s Canadian and Canadians are our favourite cousins and therefore not eligible for criticism.

    So “foreign” in terms of land ownership in the court of public opinion actually means “Chinese.”

    It might not be right but it’s certainly true.

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  33. JC (955 comments) says:

    “Spell it out please, JC.”

    T.h.e.y. b.u.y. i.t.

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  34. SteveRemmington (16 comments) says:

    JC/Johnboy

    I think you are meaning Shamus Howard.

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  35. mjw (396 comments) says:

    So do you think New Zealand is heading in the right direction?

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  36. Johnboy (16,516 comments) says:

    That’s the man Steve. I never flew with him but negotiated walking access through Poronui with his dad.

    The old man was regarded as a bit difficult by the local hunters but I found him to be a bloody good bloke.

    The Johnny Walker black label helped! :)

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  37. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    Chain of ownership from a fictional company

    Milk New Zealand Investment Limited which does not have any legal existence according to the companies register is the owner of MILK NEW ZEALAND HOLDING LIMITEDand is the ultimate owner of the companies which MILK NEW ZEALAND HOLDING LIMITED owns these are
    MILK NEW ZEALAND DAIRY LIMITED (3900437) Registered Company — holding 100 shares incorporated 26 Jun 2012 reg office Vero as above director Mr Jiang and Terry Lee , 44a Armadale Road, Remuera up until 24 july 2013this company was called NATURE PURE FARM LIMITED, 0n 28 May and 29 May 2013 it went through an unusal shareholder shuffle being transferred into the name of MILK NEW ZEALAND (SHANGHAI) CO. LTD. and back again the next day , I always find such things note worthy.
    MILK NEW ZEALAND MANAGEMENT LIMITED (3906618) Registered Company — holding 100 shares formed 4 July 2012 directorship as above as is registered office
    NEW ZEALAND STANDARD FARM LIMITED (3900378) Registered Company — holding 81835875 shares 100% Zhaobai JIANG is the only director reg office as above
    PENGXIN NEW ZEALAND FARM GROUP LIMITED (3899677) Registered Company — holding 86075387 shares as above
    PURE 100 FARM LIMITED (3899541) Registered Company — holding 100 shares again formed 26 Jun 2012 Jiang is the only director registered office L 34 Vero
    THELAND FARM GROUP LIMITED (5120941) Registered Company — holding 100 shares registered 07 Apr 2014 Jiang is the only director registered office L 34 Vero
    THELAND FARMS LIMITED (5120741) Registered Company — holding 100 shares registered 07 Apr 2014 Jiang is the only director registered office L 34 Vero
    THELAND LIMITED (5120301) Registered Company — holding 100 shares registered 07 Apr 2014 Jiang is the only director registered office L 34 Vero
    NATURE PURE LIMITED (3142408) Registered Company — holding 600 shares – 30 Sep 2010 reg office Vero as above director Mr Jiang and Terry Lee this company has a second shareholder WESTLAKE CAPITAL LIMITED

    http://www.anticorruption.co.nz/2014/08/02/fictional-company-ultimately-owns-large-chunk-of-nz/

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  38. radvad (765 comments) says:

    It might be xenophobia. It could also be a game changer for the election. Be very very careful National.

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  39. G152 (337 comments) says:

    “I can’t remember his name but his son Shawn went on to found Helisika if my memory serves me well?”

    Cant recall. Wasn’t Simon Dickie involved with that?

    Simon was a fishing guide for Huka Lodge at one time

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  40. wf (441 comments) says:

    Who else has got $86 million?

    Come on everyone, show us the money!

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  41. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    So “foreign” in terms of land ownership in the court of public opinion actually means “Chinese.”

    One of the issues is not what a multimillionaire can do but how the ordinary people can swap/trade (as in we live there and they live here). Europeans tend to have a common history (even if it was fighting one another). Also there is an economic benefit to being a member a member of a nation: a globalised property market gives a foreigner the same rights of purchase as a local.
    Another issue is scale. Most people don’t mind a few foreigners but scale is a different matter:

    Just inside the sliding doors of the Dahua supermarket in Northcote, Spoonley enthuses over the leafy greens. An estimated 80 per cent of the businesses in the precinct are Asian.
    “Have you been in one of these lately? Look at the variety,” he says, waving an arm across the expanse of the produce aisle. “You are getting all the choys. And see, it’s in Mandarin script as well as English.”
    We continue through the aisles, up into the meat section where a customer is chatting happily with one of the staff. “Have you heard English spoken so far?” says Spoonley. “Most of the language spoken here is Mandarin. Asia comes to Auckland. Asia comes to New Zealand.”
    Apile of Chinese newspapers sits on the floor near the exit. It’s with what sounds like wonder that Spoonley points out it’s just one of 28 Asian publications, most in foreign languages, printed in Auckland.
    Outside, in the carpark, he admires the surrounding strips of shops and businesses: “Look down here, look at all of this: Your hair studio, your video, your pharmacy, everything that you would want. And you can deal in Mandarin.

    National Geographic
    BTW China has 55 ethnicites but Han make up over 91% (they are very multicultural!)

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  42. PaulL (5,981 comments) says:

    I know it’s an election risk, but I really hope that National don’t decide to pander to the stupid.

    They can’t pack the land up and ship it away. They can’t import Chinese to work on it (because immigration law) so they’ll employ locals. They’ll either sell produce at market price, or they have a cunning plan to sell at above market price. What problem does that cause?

    The Japanese bought half of NY in the eighties. They lost money on most of it. If that happens here, NZers get to sell land for more than its worth, and buy it back cheap when the crash comes. If we don’t piss the money up against the wall that is.

    There’s a fair suggestion out there that the Chinese are buying real estate in NZ and Aus at well above market prices because they don’t care about profits – they just want their money out of China. How dumb would we be to turn away investors who are keen to make a loss? That’d be like Toll turning down the govt when they wanted Kiwirail back.

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  43. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    Neville Bennet on The Great Realestate Party Sell-Off

    The assumption in this case is that land is a scarce resource. NZ has large quantities of prime land that is cheap by international standards but once the land has been alienated, its holding costs are ridiculously low.

    Moreover, as the holding cost of land is low, there is a tendency for landholdings to increase in size. This is especially clear in the case of dairying.

    Dairying was once the preserve of small family farms, mostly in the Waikato, who developed local cooperatives. But the rewards of scale meant farms grew larger to maximise use of capital invested in fencing, walkways, mechanization, milking sheds etc. But family farming is not dominant in dairying, especially in the new frontiers of Canterbury and Southland; the corporates are now the driving force. I imagine that it is very difficult for the hard-working couple to break into dairy farming.

    Dairy farming is remarkable because it pays so little tax. There has been a good debate on this in interest.co.nz. I merely want to stress that our system taxes only the ‘profits’ to an operation after very generous allowances of ‘expenses’. The land owners also get access to untaxed water.

    This system is leading to huge land accumulations and I believe huge ranches or whatever are not desirable in the long run as few people get an opportunity to buy land.

    I believe that countries with a more inclusive land policy are much better. We have come away from our traditions where the state broke up large estates to give ‘little people’ a fair go.

    http://www.interest.co.nz/rural-news/53668/opinion-land-crisis

    At least Bryce Edwards and Progressives of the Internationalist Traditions support it (while the public support them).

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  44. jackinabox (776 comments) says:

    I remember that sign, El Rancho Poronui, drove past it many a time on the way from Clements Camp to the Rangitiaki pub. Good times.

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  45. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    PaulL (5,876 comments) says:
    1. They can’t pack the land up and ship it away.

    but they can preclude a Kiwi from owning it.

    2.They can’t import Chinese to work on it (because immigration law) so they’ll employ locals

    How come there are so many Chinese driving tourists?

    3.The Japanese bought half of NY in the eighties. They lost money on most of it. If that happens here, NZers get to sell land for more than its worth, and buy it back cheap when the crash comes.

    But the opposite is looking more likely. The glaciers in the Himalayas are shrinking so their farmland is under threat. What’s more they are getting wealthier and so will consume more.

    4.How dumb would we be to turn away investors who are keen to make a loss? That’d be like Toll turning down the govt when they wanted Kiwirail back.

    That assumes prices will drop when the opposite appears true. Predictions are that we will have more and more Chinese regardless of the wishes of the people of New Zealand. The people are just an inconvenience to be manipulated. Meanwhile Kiwis have to slog their guts out to get a house in a safe neighbourhood where they are within reach of employment.

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  46. oldpark (324 comments) says:

    The land was owned by Stevenson Group for 50 years.the proceeds will enable the seller to develop a major project around its large quarry operations in Drury.The new project will create more than 8000 jobs over a given period in the South Auckland area.It beggars belief to hear some wee Wellington Labour politician,who would not work in an iron lung, put the boot into the sale.Of course Gomeral Cunliffe has also put the boot into the sale.I used to think Labour was all for jobs for the workers,especially South Auckland.Seems with the stance and comments made by both self serving Labour party dinosaurs, that lie or myth has been well and truly exposed.

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  47. PaulL (5,981 comments) says:

    Yes HJ, NZers have to slog their guts out to get a decent house – because we keep voting for policies that make houses more expensive and NZers poorer. At least National have gone done way to fixing both. Probably the fault of the Chinese though, never could it be our own bloody fault.

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  48. JC (955 comments) says:

    “We have come away from our traditions where the state broke up large estates to give ‘little people’ a fair go. ”

    And the only way to keep these little enterprises going was through subsidies, tariffs, tax breaks, grants, cheap loans, SMPs and cheap warehousing of unwanted product.

    It never ceases to amaze me how many people think that farming should look like a John Constable painting of honest but thick yeomen using horses to plow the land and take the produce to town 5 miles away.

    JC

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  49. RF (1,396 comments) says:

    Good old sweet cheeks. Grant Robertson is up to his usual double standards. It’s ok if Labour does it.

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  50. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    The land was owned by Stevenson Group for 50 years.the proceeds will enable the seller to develop a major project around its large quarry operations in Drury.The new project will create more than 8000 jobs over a given period in the South Auckland area.
    ….
    Yeah right :roll:

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  51. wreck1080 (3,905 comments) says:

    screw it, we can’t buy chinese land so they shouldn’t be allowed to buy ours.

    Mai Chens opinion piece the other day was saying that asians are going to have all the political power in auckland by 2021. How long before they take NZ?

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  52. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    wf posted at 4.31:

    Who else has got $86 million?
    Come on everyone, show us the money!

    If New Zealand farmers don’t want to buy it at $86 million, the farm is above it’s working value , and the price is because the asset is worth that as a deposit box for Communist oligarchs. Real estate agents, PR firms to feed the media, and banks facilitating the transaction are others who benefit. By the farm’s “working value” I mean its ability to produce agricultural products profitably.

    If you extend wf’s argument, it would mean, if the offered price was high enough, we would sell land to foreigners so they could dump nuclear waste on it.

    Voters won’t buy that.

    Chinese aren’t the only buyers scouring the world for agricultural land. Middle East oil money is going into agricultural land around the world.

    The debate about foreign ownership of land is widespread. For example, Brazil has just declared agricultural land to be a strategic asset, and is restricting sales to foreigners. NZ is a small, mountainous country dependent on farm exports, and just 2.03 per cent of its land arable or in permanent crops (grass). For NZ,, farmland is even more strategic than it is for Brazil.

    Brazil’s move:

    http://www.laht.com/article.asp?CategoryId=14090&ArticleId=364278

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  53. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    PaulL
    Yes HJ, NZers have to slog their guts out to get a decent house – because we keep voting for policies that make houses more expensive and NZers poorer.
    …….
    You mean the strong correlation between immigration and house prices or because we provide frivolities such as sewage pipes, roads etc and town planning for our burgeoning population (80% of it due to non NZ citizens).

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  54. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    Mai Chens opinion piece the other day was saying that asians are going to have all the political power in auckland by 2021. How long before they take NZ?

    See Mai Chen isn’t xenophobic!

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  55. Fisiani (1,039 comments) says:

    So NZF, Conservatives and Labour are all fighting for the redneck Chinese hating voters. They are welcome to them. As they each seek to be more and more extreme the Chinese residents will flock to National. I suspect there are more Asian people (?8%) in NZ than racist Asian haters(?4%).

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  56. PaulL (5,981 comments) says:

    Fisiani: Asians aren’t homogenous. I suspect there are plenty of Asians who don’t like the chinese

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  57. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Fisiani (5.22 post) implies that if you oppose land sales to foreigners you hate Chinese.

    Shut the debate down with a cry of racist, eh Fisiani?

    This isn’t Tonga or the Solomon Islands, Fisiani. There antagonism in 2006 about Chinese business moving in fuelled riots. In Tonga, that led to deployment of Australian and NZ troops.

    Let’s hope the same inter-race violence doesn’t ever occur in Auckland.

    http://chinaconfidential.blogspot.co.nz/2006/11/anti-chinese-feelings-fuel-tonga-riots.html

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  58. mara (784 comments) says:

    China could colonize NZ a million times over if it wished. Don’t open the door. If you think that comment is xenophobic or racist, I do not care. I am OVER all the ” isms” that infect society today.

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  59. ChrisM (103 comments) says:

    As I’m local and regularly drive past Lochinver and know people who do work there, I know a bit about it. It is a big station because it has to be. It would be uneconomic to have it there as smaller farms. They have a relatively short growing season as most land there is above 700m. If it wasn’t for the fertiliser, it would have to grow pines like the surrounding land. Even now, it doesn’t have the capital investment it needs. Stevenson Group aren’t farmers and only had it for historic reasons. It is fairly likely that Landcorp will manage the station for Pengxin. When one looks at the developments that have been done in Tahorakuri (which pleases everyone but the Greens), I think the future bodes well. NZ frantically needs capital investment and the NZ owners don’t provide it as they think next year’s balance sheet is long term planning. Now that asset stripper Hart has been forced to sell out of Kinleith, it is likely to get the new plant it has needed for 30 years. And what sawmills are as modern as Panpac?
    Over Xmas, I did a ride through Poronui Station organised by DoC. They were full of praise for both the work that both Pengxin and the Station had put in on cleaning up the Tararau Stream with their riparian strips and farm management. DoC commented this was a lot more than previous NZ owners would ever do.
    I don’t feel threatened by Chinese owning the farms. They will be a lot better than the absentee English owners of a century ago ever were.

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  60. JC (955 comments) says:

    “If New Zealand farmers don’t want to buy it at $86 million, the farm is above it’s working value ,”

    Nope. It means NZ farmers have no idea or money on how to make the place work at that price. Mind you, at $5000 per ha its a bit of a steal when you consider land 70km further North that is drought prone and very steep is selling for up to $20,000/ha because it has dairy run off potential.

    JC

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  61. Captain Pugwash (98 comments) says:

    NZ traditionally sells its produce to anyone who will buy it. China has an expanding & Hungry population, that must be fed, China needs to secure its food supply.

    If China owns farms in NZ then China is guaranteed a food supply & can’t be out bid by other countries. However there maybe be a problem in the future, through Chinese ownership, that we become China’s farm. In that case China will increasingly take an interest in NZ’s affairs. The interests of China may not necessarily be our interests.

    At least if all Farm ownership is in NZ’s hands we can have more control over who we deal with in the future, and spread the risk, so to speak.

    Our idea of a free & democratic society if different to that of China, and in 50 years time the good old US of A my not be in a position to protect little old NZ.

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  62. Fisiani (1,039 comments) says:

    Paul T Rednecks do not distinguish between Chinese, Korean or Vietnamese or any other Asian.
    Many first generation Asian immigrants have made the mistake of assuming they should vote Labour. They have wisened up and are now supporting National.
    Jack 5 Opposition to land sales to foreigners is only ever public when it involves Chinese buyers, not to Australian, English , USA or Canadian buyers, it is thus anti-Chinese it is thus racist.

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  63. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    ChrisM posted at 5.58:

    I don’t feel threatened by Chinese owning the farms. They will be a lot better than the absentee English owners of a century ago ever were.

    That sums up our trading strategy. We diversified enthusiastically and successfully after Britain joined the EC about 40 years ago.

    Now we are back to dependent on one customer, one market, and overwhelmingly one product – milk powder.

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  64. ChrisM (103 comments) says:

    JC – Are you thick or just trying to feel right at home with Labour? 70km north takes one out on the Rangitaki plains – off pumice land and lower altitude Why don’t you compare house prices in Paratai Drive toOtara – they are closer – if you go across the Raingitaiki from Lochinver – a stone’s throw away- there is a lot of totally undeveloped land. It is Maori Trust land where there is too much infighting and trustee milking to give the beneficiaries any income. That is in inalienable NZ ownership and how is the country benefitting from that?

    Jack5 -What % of new Zealands dairy trade is with China? What other investment can give the same income per hectare? Who said Lochinver is going to dairying? And what is your trading strategy that will give us 30% of the export income that is not Gree Tee shirt slogans?

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  65. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    Captain Pugwash,

    At least if all Farm ownership is in NZ’s hands we can have more control over who we deal with in the future, and spread the risk, so to speak.

    Again, who is this “we”?

    If a Kiwi owns the property it doesn’t mean you get any more more say in how it is run that if a foreigner owns it.

    “Our idea of a free & democratic society if different to that of China”

    Apparently yours isn’t.

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  66. mara (784 comments) says:

    While we are all squabbling among ourselves about what is happening today, China takes a longer view. We beat ourselves up and risk elevated blood pressure while China, who by the way, is smarter than us, just boxes on steadily expanding its empire at the speed necessary in the Country of choice in their eventual occupation. They are probably too big to fight. But selling them NZ farmland still galls me.

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  67. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    mara, what a load of bollocks. “China takes a longer view.” “China is smarter than us.” “Wax on, wax off.”

    Sorry, but it’s complete crap.

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  68. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    Captain Pugwash notes:

    there maybe be a problem in the future, through Chinese ownership, that we become China’s farm. In that case China will increasingly take an interest in NZ’s affairs. The interests of China may not necessarily be our interests

    The politicians who are presiding over this, and the useful idiots who are enabling it, are Quislings. Of course major landowners are going to want a say in the running of this country. They have every right to. Which is why the Chinese are far too smart to sell any of theirs.

    If Donghua Liu can corrupt as many people and processes as he has with only a fraction of the capital that we’re talking about in this deal, then clearly NZ is highly vulnerable.

    It’s funny how those who support the erosion of our sovereignty never have an adequate answer for the question “if it’s such a red hot idea, then why aren’t the Chinese doing it?”

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  69. lolitasbrother (687 comments) says:

    where I am now, Asia, the newspapers are full of new entente Asian and China,
    they joke here about sending the American weakling back on first class KENYAN AIRLINE.
    well if Thailand is laughing at USA you can imagine what Putin thinks ,
    his face on every Asian newspaper , wake up, this is serious

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  70. mara (784 comments) says:

    Rex, sorry deleted you by accident.

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  71. lolitasbrother (687 comments) says:

    and there is more, please go to alternative sites to see Ukraine attack aircraft. MH 17 directed into attack site, Kiev dog weakling EU aircrafft attack proven, you do,also proof of fake interviews,
    Gosh thats rightOoswald killed the president , and god is true

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  72. JC (955 comments) says:

    “JC – Are you thick or just trying to feel right at home with Labour? 70km north takes one out on the Rangitaki plains – off pumice land and lower altitude”

    OK, I was thinking of parts near Ngakuru which on checking is 90 not 70km. But whatever advantages of altitude are lost to the steepness, drought on pumice and impossibility of dairying, yet the land is 4 times more valuable. Its sheep country with beef and dairy runoff potential and thats about all. Above all it doesn’t have the advantage of size and thus options that Lochinver has and is highly developed whereas Lochinver still has a huge area undeveloped out the back.

    If I was offered Lochinver as opposed to 14 farms North that aggregated to the same area I’d take Lochinver every time.. breaking up the station to make it more affordable gives up its huge advantage to attract overseas capital and specific markets.

    JC

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  73. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    Fisiani (957 comments) says:
    Jack 5 Opposition to land sales to foreigners is only ever public when it involves Chinese buyers, not to Australian, English , USA or Canadian buyers, it is thus anti-Chinese it is thus racist.
    ………
    It is true that humans have a preference for people like themselves (Chinese included) but that is a side issue. It is still the prerogative of the people of a nation to have a say in who land is sold too. As JS Mill says “The land of Ireland, the land of any country belongs to the people of that country” (and he didn’t mean sovereignty since that is just self determination).
    If countries were equal in assets so that there was mutual benefit to the majority (not a minority) it could be justified.

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  74. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    wat dabney (3,693 comments) says:
    August 2nd, 2014 at 6:45 pm

    If a Kiwi owns the property it doesn’t mean you get any more more say in how it is run that if a foreigner owns it.
    ….
    At least the Kiwi isn’t outbid by foreign money.

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  75. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    It is Maori Trust land where there is too much infighting and trustee milking to give the beneficiaries any income. That is in inalienable NZ ownership and how is the country benefitting from that?
    ….
    They were talking this morning about planting lots of Manuka for the honey.

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  76. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    NZ frantically needs capital investment and the NZ owners don’t provide it as they think next year’s balance sheet is long term planning
    ………
    maybe we could blame real estate lobbyists for that:
    Savings Working Group
    January 2011
    ” The policy choice that increased immigration – given the number of employers increasingly unable to pay First-World wages to the existing population and all the capital requirements that increasing populations involve – looks likely to have worked almost directly against the adjustment New Zealand needed to make and it might have been better off with a lower rate of net immigration. This adjustment would have involved a lower real interest rate (and cost of capital) and a lower real exchange rate, meaning a more favourable environment for raising the low level of productive capital per worker and labour productivity.”
    http://www.treasury.govt.nz/publications/reviews-consultation/savingsworkinggroup/pdfs/swg-report-jan11.pdf

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  77. wat dabney (3,756 comments) says:

    hj,

    You are mistakenly conflating foreign investment with immigration.

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  78. ChrisM (103 comments) says:

    JC
    Ngakuru is an average 4-5° warmer and has a lot better soil and moisture. It also isn’t pumice as any roadside cutting shows. Have you ever been through Rangitaiki, especially in winter? Seen all the frost flats that have nuked the pines? You split it into 14 farms, you would have 12 poor farmers and two sitting pretty. The grazing season is a lot shorter up there. It seems colder than nearby Matea Road which has dairy. They need very large hay/silage paddocks for the feeding out and they are all in the north east.
    hj
    You must be a JAFA. The land is already covered in manuka and there are beehives on it. Not much money from that, especially after the trustees have taken their cut.

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  79. RF (1,396 comments) says:

    The drunken dwarf is now tossing his bottles out of his play pen. If the sale goes ahead he will not work with National.

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  80. lolitasbrother (687 comments) says:

    New Zealand victory, NZ Nat John Key,many people have to accept
    ,AGOD VICTORY SOEACH

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  81. Crusader (314 comments) says:

    The same type of people who tell you New Zealand’s foreign policy is in America’s pocket, are telling you that we have sold out to the Chinese, which of course is contradictory. So which is it, Uncle Sam or the Red Dragon?

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  82. Chuck Bird (4,880 comments) says:

    “The drunken dwarf is now tossing his bottles out of his play pen. If the sale goes ahead he will not work with National.”

    What makes you think that?

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  83. ChrisM (103 comments) says:

    The farm was developed using the Stevenson’s quarry and earthmoving equipment over the winter months in the 60s. The airstrip was also Taupo’s airport for a while. As part of the development, they left some of the steeper land around streams bushed or did forestry planting in the gullies. The shelter belts are massive. There is also a lake in the flat ground. They could do this conservation because the farm was so big. If it was split up, then all that land would be cleared for pasture or drained. Look at the land to the west to know what it was like.

    Did you know there is a giant covered cattle feed lot down in the SE. Feedlots are very expensive and labour intensive, especially when on a grass based system. JC, why do you think that is there?
    When one looks at the farm, it is likely that Pengxin want it for dairy support and runoff. That would round out their farming venture.

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  84. Unity (577 comments) says:

    If we can’t buy land and businesses in China, then they should not be allowed to buy the same here. End of story. It’s the same in Japan but we aren’t talking about them – yet. I don’t place the Chinese in the same category as the Australians, British, Americans, Canadians etc. Also, we can actually buy land and businesses in these places so that too makes it okay – for me. Selling huge blocks of land to the Chinese rings alarm bells for me.

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  85. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Fisiani posted at 6.05:

    Jack 5 Opposition to land sales to foreigners is only ever public when it involves Chinese buyers, not to Australian, English , USA or Canadian buyers, it is thus anti-Chinese it is thus racist.

    That is untrue. Read my 2.45 post above.

    It’s one thing to be uninformed, but another to ignore points already made in a thread.

    People who resort to the cry of “racism!” as a tool of argument have become as ineffectual as the fabled boy who cried “wolf!” too often. The “racism” cry has lost its power, and too often diverts attention from core problems.

    For example, you can question and criticise China’s policies in Tibet, Inner Mongolia, and the Uighur homeland without resorting to the exhausted accusation of racism, which would over-simplify or perhaps even ignore Beijing’s assimilation strategy.

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  86. Jack5 (5,137 comments) says:

    Crusader posted at 9.04:

    The same type of people who tell you New Zealand’s foreign policy is in America’s pocket, are telling you that we have sold out to the Chinese, which of course is contradictory. So which is it, Uncle Sam or the Red Dragon?

    That is utter bullshit. You say that Redbaiter is anti-American?

    The only people torn between America and the People’s Republic of China are in the National Party faction which has its collective head up the arse of the Chinese Communist Party.

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  87. Mobile Michael (451 comments) says:

    Aren’t you glad I own property? I mean, because I’m New Zealand born it must be better for you even though you can’t use it, you can’t benefit from it, and everything I do with it is solely for the benefit of myself and my family. But because I’m a kiwi, its just better that I own a property than any foreigner.

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  88. MrTips (95 comments) says:

    I don’t know what Robertson’s problem is, he’s been getting owned by foreigners (National) in Parliament ever since he turned up.

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  89. Boris Piscina (53 comments) says:

    The sale will be done and dusted long before the election and Peters and Key both know it.

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  90. ChrisM (103 comments) says:

    Of course, all those budding xenophobes out there know Pengxin’s milk is processed at the Miraka plant. It is probably why canny politicians like the Maori Party are saying nothing on the issue.

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  91. SJM (77 comments) says:

    PaulL (5,878 comments) says:
    August 2nd, 2014 at 4:36 pm
    I know it’s an election risk, but I really hope that National don’t decide to pander to the stupid.

    They can’t pack the land up and ship it away. They can’t import Chinese to work on it (because immigration law) so they’ll employ locals.
    _______________________________________

    Ya think Maori said that right before signing off on the Treaty of Waitangi? As for immigration, that seems to be something that can be purchased these days.

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  92. SJM (77 comments) says:

    Crusader (280 comments) says:
    August 2nd, 2014 at 9:04 pm
    The same type of people who tell you New Zealand’s foreign policy is in America’s pocket, are telling you that we have sold out to the Chinese, which of course is contradictory. So which is it, Uncle Sam or the Red Dragon?
    ———————————————

    Its whoever pays the most, always has been. I forget who it was who said it, but it is a truism that New Zealand’s foreign policy is trade (One could also suggest that claims to foreign policy independence is well undermined by complete reliance on other nations to accomplish our overseas goals, especially on defense related matters)

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  93. Unity (577 comments) says:

    I guess it could be said that the trader, wheeler dealer, or whatever we should call him, is at it again. Trading away our country!! I wonder what will go next.

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  94. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    JC Says:
    1.Here’s the conundrum, the Greens say our agriculture is pants and we rely too much on it

    I don’t think the Greens say that;they say we rely too much on dairying.

    2. but in the same breath try to stop foreign money coming in that would help diversify the economy.

    that is drawing a long bow. Where is the evidence that foreign money helps diversify the economy when so much of it goes into realestate (urban and rural)?

    3.There’s also another reason why real big money and long term planning and patience is necessary for Lochinver which I might mention when the deal is fully done.

    Expand dairying? Mining? Subdivision? Geothermal? Industrial park? Silicon Valley?

    4. Meantime, Lochinver is *big* and selling it to locals simply means no breakthrough into other ventures or diversifications because of the short term need for debt payments and quick profits.

    This type of comment begs the question: how do do we get were we are with land locals can’t afford and loaded up with debt? Globalising the property market where transactions are between groups and individuals across borders directly benefits those groups and the rest of the peasants are irrelevant (I’m skeptical of the 8000 jobs in South Auckland) the money is just as likely to go anywhere.

    New Zealand’s growth in the period leading up to the GFC(2002 to 2008) was associated with rapid credit expansion, fast growth in consumption, high external borrowing, low private saving, a house and farm price boom, high government tax revenues and spending, and static tradable sector growth. Growth on this basis was unsustainable and had several negative consequences including rapid growth of private-sector debt and a high NFL-to-GDP ratio (Figure 2.7)

    Migration and total private-sector debt

    New Zealand’s population growth rate in recent decades has been rapid by international standards; from 1990 to 2007 it was the third fastest in the OECD.
    A country with a rapidly growing population needs to devote resources to building more roads, schools, shops, houses, factories and so on than a country with a low rate of population growth. In a country with a relatively low national savings rate, rapid population growth will put sustained upward pressure on real interest rates and, in turn, the real exchange rate, making it harder to achieve the per capita income gains that people (and the government) aspire to.
    Countries with rapid rates of population growth will also tend to have, all else equal, more negative net foreign asset positions.7
    New Zealand’s birth rate, although not much above replacement, is relatively high by OECD standards but the rate of total population growth is largely a matter of policy choice.

    Savings working group Report

    5. New Zealanders often have great ideas but not the money, markets, R&D and fresh thinking that foreigners can bring or buy.

    Covered money (above). Markets? you mean like the Vestey Model a vertical operation? R & D. Don’t we have agricultural scientists?

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  95. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    It is likely that the reduction in export competitiveness has, in turn, slowed productivity growth. There is evidence that a lower exchange rate creates opportunities for high-productivity firms to grow, achieve scale through exporting, and contribute a range of spill-over benefits to other firms. In contrast, what happened is that non-tradable industries such as construction and property and business services expanded rapidly and attracted labour and other resources at the cost of their availability to export industries such as agriculture and food processing.

    Savings Working Group.

    but the Government calls bullshit.

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  96. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    Finance Minister Bill English yesterday announced the terms of reference for the group, saying he was giving it a wide brief to consider national savings including government, business and private savings.

    He has ruled out a capital gains or land tax and said New Zealand Superannuation isn’t up for discussion.

    Labour’s finance spokesman David Cunliffe said the government was desperately hoping the working group could help it out of its difficulties.

    “National has never been committed to lifting New Zealand’s household savings rate,” he said last night.

    “After two years and two budgets they have gone backwards and this committee looks set to go further back.”

    Cunliffe said the government had touted fiscal policy and taxation as areas of importance, but neither would deliver real options to save like bolstering KiwiSaver.

    “Having already cut New Zealand Superannuation Fund contributions and gutted KiwiSaver, the terms of reference for the Savings Working Group are now equally disturbing,” he said.

    “New Zealanders all know `government savings’ is code for harsh cuts to essential services, `changes to the tax system’ are likely to favour the wealthiest kiwis, and references to `fairness and effectiveness of KiwiSaver’ could mean further gutting of this landmark scheme.”

    http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/labour-savings-working-group-won-t-deliver-3733002
    Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dee.

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  97. hj (6,996 comments) says:

    Another Vesty?
    With Dewhurst the butchers they became Britain’s richest business dynasty – and the country’s most astute tax avoiders
    http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/1999/aug/11/features11.g2

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