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October 4, 2007 9:11am by David Farrar

Venezuela now most corrupt

Tim Blair reports that Transparency International has found Venezuela to now be the most corrupt country in Latin America.

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International Politics

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Comments (118)

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Paul

The fact is the show is biased by a neo-con with inaccuracies. But if you can’t accept that then how sad for you.
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October 4, 2007 8:50pm
Redbaiter

“WE MUST bomb Iran”

Thanks for the reference. Its not a smear at all, (although that’s what you want it to be) its actually a great opinion piece. I agree with it completely.

“you’re now attributing more than one me,”

No I’m not you illiterate clown. Man, for a school teacher you’re such a non-comprehending dumbfuck. What a tragedy that such a moronic commie loon was ever permitted contact with children. I wonder how many kid’s lives you’ve fucked up in your time as an educator.

“The fact is the show is biased by a neo-con with inaccuracies. But if you can’t accept that then how sad for you.”

That’s not a fact, its a partisan and subjective opinion. Only a madman would describe it as a fact and, without any proof to back it up, only another madman would accept it as one.
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October 4, 2007 9:17pm
Paul

RB, this is getting comical.

Criticism of facts presented in a show is valid. He said stuff in the book and on the show that are not true. If I was to say the earth is flat, I would dearly hope someone picked me up on the inaccuracies of the fact not some opinion. He presented what he thought were facts and they weren’t, it’s not too hard.

Man you are a sensitive SOB. If I come back at your abuse with anything you fly off the handle. Do you get any pleasure out of being here?

“No I’m not you illiterate clown. Man, for a school teacher you’re such a non-comprehending dumbfuck. What a tragedy that such a moronic commie loon was ever permitted contact with children. I wonder how many kid’s lives you’ve fucked up in your time as an educator.”

That’s a mighty fine sentence you have going there young man. You must be proud.

no no no “non-comprehending dumbfuck.” That should be your ‘inability to comprehend the issue at hand is weak you dumbfuck’.

You still don’t get it. I am allowed under the mere fact of human existence to say that there are things wrong with the show. It was presented as the be all and end all of “how mighty socialism is” and yet it’s a crock of half truth shit.
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October 4, 2007 9:29pm
Paul

Come on Bob, you put the show out there as an “I told you so” and there’s no defense of the crap that it is? Stand up for your show my man! Don’t let RB and his amateur psychological analysis do the fighting for you.
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October 4, 2007 9:31pm
Richard

Oh dear, back to the bad old days.
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October 4, 2007 9:32pm
Redbaiter

“it’s a crock of half truth shit.”

Yes, so you have opined, again and again, with nary a fact to back up that opinion. ..and of course, AS YOU SAY, I shouldn’t object to the expression of opinion- AND I DON’T YOU RAMBLING DELUSIONAL DUMBFUCK.. I’m objecting to your claims that your opinions are facts.
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October 4, 2007 10:16pm
tom hunter

Paul
Given that it was nearing 11pm I suspect Bob is in bed, ready for his 4am start with milking. You know, working hard to put tax dollars into your pocket so you can educate his kids correctly by showing them “Paying The Price”, as well as wiping the sweat from your brow as you sit on right and left-wing blogs throughout the work day.

I had to say that you had the beginnings of an argument – albeit listing only one factual disagreement – until you got to this part:

Could I suggest you now take a look at any of the documentaries of Pilger, and lets compare notes

In looking at the various notes I’ve made over the years watching Pilger docos I’ll grant you that even though “Heaven on Earth” is made by a former member of the American Socialist Party (ah – those revolutionary Neo-Cons) it really does lack the subtle mendaciousness of the former. All those official responses framed by shots of dying children. Clever. Very clever.

Of course none of this is a surprise given that Pilger was embedded with the Industrial Workers of the World from the moment he fell out of his cradle. Readers may be interested in the activities of a closely related group – the WWF – although the following article precedes by five years the more recent revelations by the AP.

http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/behind-the-placards/3458/

Defenders of North Korea and the Soviet crushing of the Hungarian people’s revolution in 1956 are common themes. Solidarity. That’s the spirit.

Oh well, if Muravchik and so many others can have the scales lifted from their eyes there’s always hope – although thanks to myriad other Pilger worshipers in our journalistic community, it’s doubtful that viewers of TV1,2 or 3 will ever see “Heaven on Earth”.

Luckily there’s this:
http://www.pbs.org/heavenonearth/

I’m sure that misquote is in the transcript somewhere, though I could not find it. Perhaps someone has the page reference to the factual error?

Enjoy!
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October 4, 2007 11:06pm
toms

*sigh* Right whingers clearly fail to understand the nature of revolution. Chavez is undertaking a Bolivarian socialist revolution. That means he plans to smash the globalised Castilian ruling elite in Venezuela. Given that this elite controls most of the organs of non-state power, and almost all the wealth, of course his revolution is going to create some bitter opposition in the reactionary Venezuelan ancien regime. So there is no doubt that every sinew of globalised reactionary capitalism will be straining to discredit and destroy Chavez’s revolution. One look at the success of Cuba in creating an equal society compared to central American contemporaries like Honduras or Guatemala or the Dominican Republic should convince any person that the Venezuelan revolution must succeed.
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October 5, 2007 8:34am
Paul

RB.

I’m hoping that 1+1 still equals 2 in your world.

OK. for the last time, attributing someone’s quote to another person isn’t being factually correct. It can’t be any clearer than that can it. Quote A by Person A attributed to Person B is not a fact. It’s not my opinion, it’s there for the whole world to see in the movie. It is no different from me calling you a screaming leftie tree hugger pinko commie (which couldn’t be further from the truth).

But again keep shouting, if that makes you feel good.
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October 5, 2007 8:38am
Paul

Tom,

cheers for at least engaging in debate, bloody refreshing.

Several points to discuss. So he was once a young socialist, that’s used over and over to do the old “he saw the light” line. Doesn’t really have anything to do with it. “ah – those revolutionary Neo-Cons” He’s about as Neo-Con as you can get these days.

As far as I know Pilger is not a member of the WWF. Like saying that ACT is closely related to Mussolini (for the mere fact that they are on the right). If he was, he’s no longer a member. But again that’s a smoke screen. Sure Pilger is not without criticism, but then surely I can put a counter to Heaven On Earth, it’s free speech I hope.

As for the quotes. http://www.logosjournal.com/
http://www.logosjournal.com/schulman.pdf

Pretty good journal with excellent writers, Jürgen Habermas isn’t a lightweight when it comes to thoughts on paper.

“it’s doubtful that viewers of TV1,2 or 3 will ever see “Heaven on Earth”. That’s a good thing. A show full of inaccuracies and half truths is tantamount to propaganda, and last time I looked we don’t need US styled commie beating propaganda in NZ.

“You know, working hard to put tax dollars into your pocket so you can educate his kids correctly by showing them “Paying The Price”, as well as wiping the sweat from your brow as you sit on right and left-wing blogs throughout the work day.”

Not sure where that came from. I work for myself. I have a design business, I take no money from the govt, in fact shock bloody horror as a businessman I pay tax. Considering I am in Vancouver I was up till 4am getting my own work done, and then up at 6:30 with my two boys. “throughout the work day ” It’s called procrastination, and considering it’s my time I can do what the bloody hell I like. And if it’s getting up the skin of a few all too sensitive right wing hacks then that’s just fun. Some people play computer games, I do this from time to time.

But still if that’s your illusion of what teachers are like (my previous profession), unlucky for you. Otherwise goo debate.
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October 5, 2007 9:01am
side show bob

Thanks Tom, yes guite correct, bed at 9 and fucking dark when I arise.
Paul hope I didn’t ruin your night you seem to have worked yourself up into a lather. As I said i doubt very much if this show would make a scrape of difference to someone so blinded by ideaology. Of course you could say the same for me but having seen how the world works for myself I now see things a lot different. I once thought socialiism was the way to go, how fucking wrong can you get. I do not have the academic abbilty or the time to argue the pros and cons of socialism with you all day except to say no system of government is perfect but the present form of government we suffer under is far from ideal in fact it is down right evil. This country is going to the dogs, so much for government for the people, this government is only for the government.
Tom S, my brother has interests in Cuba you should talk to him about revolution. Yeah, the place needs a revolution all right. Given time it won’t be long before we can all enjoy a society like Cuba, just hope the weather gets better.
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October 5, 2007 10:40am
Socrates

“One look at the success of Cuba in creating an equal society compared to central American contemporaries like Honduras or Guatemala or the Dominican Republic should convince any person that the Venezuelan revolution must succeed.”

So obviously you are a fan of imprisonment of the political opposition. You don’t believe in the freedom of speech or a free press. You would also like to torture, imprison and kill social undesirables as you define them? You also want to remove the right of the people to say who heads their country. As that’s what Cuba does and the path Venezuela is heading down.

Also Cuba’s famed health service is all mirrors and smoke. As soon as you get into the slums and ghettos you will see the true state of misery and poverty there, and the lack of real health care.

No forced redistribution of wealth and resources has every succeeded. All it ever does is shift the wealth from one set of ruling elite to another.

A question for you: If Cuba is so wonderful, why to thousands attempt every year to flee to America? If the US is so bad why do hundreds of thousands of people from around the world attempt to immigrate (legally and illegally) there each year?
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October 5, 2007 11:04am
Redbaiter

If Cuba is so wonderful, why to thousands attempt every year to flee to America? If the US is so bad why do hundreds of thousands of people from around the world attempt to immigrate (legally and illegally) there each year?

..and why did refugees from Haiti go right past Cuba and try to enter the USA??

You won’t get an answer. The man’s a stupid leftist robot who cannot think or say anything that isn’t pre-programmed in accordance with standard
Marxist propaganda guidelines.
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October 5, 2007 3:04pm
Paul

SSB,

thanks for the “I’ve seen the world” speech. I too have seen the world. We just have different glasses on. (but wait here comes RB – you’re glasses aren’t valid whine)

Sorry you have left your leftist beliefs behind, one could argue that that was borne of years of cynicism? As for the world, have you read this about work place relations. It’s funny and oh so sad. I’ve seen it in action.

“Banana Time” Job Satisfaction and Informal Interaction. D F Roy
http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~salaff/Roy.pdf

Red, everytime I’ve asked you to grace us with an answer all I get is abuse along the lines of the last line of your post, it’s just not worth it. It aint baiting, its abuse, but that’s how you work now isn’t it.
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October 5, 2007 6:02pm
tom hunter

Paul
Well congratulations on running your own design business. You’ve taken your first step into a larger world, even if it is itself “innately authoritarian”. That was merely an assertion by your reviewer with no argument and as you hopefully move forward to make more money (and pay ever more taxes) you’ll discover what a crock of an assertion it is.

My take on teachers was just a little teasing – mainly a result of being pounded with the full 60’s routine by freshly minted TColl graduates in the 1970’s and 80’s. The only time they ever considered both sides now was on the occasions when they played Joni Mitchell.

In any case I was almost going to apologise to you about my assumption that you were the same when I came across this:
A show full of inaccuracies and half truths is tantamount to propaganda, and last time I looked we don’t need US styled commie beating propaganda in NZ

Oh great. But Pilger inaccuracies and half-truths are just fine – because they’re actually objective and balanced? Please. In this day and age I’m surprised that people still try this “I’m objective, your ……” rubbish. In the age of post-modernist philosophy that nonsense does not cut it any longer, even as an attempt to vilify your opponents and win the argument.

Those TV channels have, over the years, screened numerous Pilger documentaries. Given that, and the well-known, hard-left bias of their author, I damn well do expect them to screen something like “Heaven on Earth”, warts and all. It’s called balance. I don’t expect any author to give me a fair and balanced look at anything by themselves: what I expect is to be able to see more than one view and then make up my own mind. What you are saying is, at best, the equivalent of some old, Victorian biddy shaking her finger at the TV screen saying that long-haired louts or scantily dressed woman “should’nt be allowed.”

As far as your comment on Pilger and the WWF is concerned I’ll resist falling into the RB routine of “you lefties can’t even read” – but really – I could not have spelled it out much more clearly. I said he was born into a household IWW – better known as the Wobblies. I also clearly stated that the WWF was a related group, not the same. The main difference between them is that the latter are a party, whereas the Wobblies, true to their original beliefs, are a fairly loose affiliation of worker activists who focus on workplace organisation and agitation. But aside from that the differences between them are tissue-paper thin – including, as I said, their mutual support for the crushing of the 1956 Hungarian revolution (they did not think it involved real workers, just reactionaries). Hardly an apt comparison with the gap between ACT and Mussolini!

Anyway – coffee – and then I’ll get back to that reviewer of yours!
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October 6, 2007 7:26am
tom hunter

Okay – the review of “Heaven on Earth”

Actually I thought the review was fairly mild, as was the original programme. The show did not come across as a fire-breathing denunciation of socialism but as something that showed the origins, the changes over time, and the failures, of socialism, often using former socialists to speak about their experiences. Towards the end it even had interviews with modern socialists who expressed why they believe they still have something to offer society, as well as articulating strong criticism of “the Third Way” that Shulman complains Muravchik is too easy on.

The review’s primary gripe was that the show had merely focused on “old” themes: elites autocratically trying to create rational societies; socialism going against human nature; blood-soaked revolutionaries always appearing out of the affluent classes whilst real workers become mild reformers.

Whether a theme is “old” is surely not as important as whether it is accurate. Schulman, despite several hundred words, clearly has no taste for delving into these three faultlines, as though socialists themselves have long-since resolved the problems and now wish to be fully engaged with the “other soul” of socialism without having to deal with these yapping, right-wing critics.

Unfortunately the subject of this thread (not to mention the usual defenders of socialism on it) is yet another example of how these themes of socialist failure have not been addressed at all but arise again and again. If we’re going to talk about “old” themes I would point out that there is nothing more old and tired than a socialist theorist whining about how the critics are picking on well-known failures in practice and ignoring the glorious and sunny possibilities of the “other soul” of the theory, as seen in his wrapup:
”But the whole point of socialism, when it has not been hijacked by authoritarians,……”

“The whole point”, Is actually several points:
that socialism has always been hijacked by authoritarians eventually;
that relatively well-meaning idealists like Luxemburg have always greased the skids – overriding whatever misgivings they might have had;
That well-educated elites have always wound up at the heart of it and usually turned out to be the most vicious protagonists (“Che” being merely the most iconic).
that the masses have always been the ones most royally fucked over by it in the end.

From Lenin to Stalin to Mao to Castro to Mugabe to Chavez to…….!!!! It’s endless and yet we still have people like Schulman, and presumably yourself, who walk around saying that those occurrences have nothing to do with “real” socialism and that only when the theory is applied correctly will it all be good!

When are socialists going to realise that, It’s not a bug, it’s a feature!, of the stupid theory!

Not even the desparately idealistic structures of the kibbutzim, created by smart, passionate, ordinary people who had clearly read as much early socialist text as Schulman, meet his “pure” standards. The implication of that criticism – particularly the line that ”to each according to his needs” (an impossibility under conditions of scarcity) on the last page is that Schulman sets impossibly high bars that conveniently always allow believers an out when each experiment collapses.
That comment, together with the critique that 92% of kibbutzim were affiliated to companies selling goods for profit, indicates that Schulman still believes that true socialism will only be possible when there is a total, global socialist revolution. Good luck with that.
But of course that’s just another bar that cannot be cleared, thereby allowing yet another excuse for the failure of socialist systems.

If the themes are “same old, same old” critiques I would say that repetition still forms a valuable service in the face of relentless recycling of the myths of socialism and socialists in things like “Reds” and “The Motorcycle Diaries”. Something that draws little comment in everyday life.

Muravchik’s documentary was too kind by half.
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October 6, 2007 11:19am
tom hunter

Paul
Amazing how three kids and petty bourgeoisie activities (watching the AB’s, mowing lawns, trying to meet a damned project deadline) can stuff up things!!!

Just a couple more things on Schulman, in light of your comments about half-truths and propaganda.

For someone who writes for a place that is “not a lightweight”, he certainly demonstrates some startling ignorance:
Muravchik mostly offers the traditional fallacies, claiming that the Bolshevik revolution was a mere coup d’etat and attributing all its tragedies to Leninism’s innate evil and nothing to the civil war in which the Bolsheviks were fighting a full scale invasion by fourteen different states. Lenin—who supposedly ordered “tens of thousands of deaths,” though no proof is offered—”.

Fucking incredible. Has this man, a Ph.D student, never read Dimitri Volkogonov’s 1994 biography of Lenin? Or is Volkogonov, like Muravchik, such a class traitor or turncoat or whatever, that he must be automatically dismissed?
Volkogonov was the Director of The institute of Military History in the 1980’s. He was given access to the most secret archives of the Central Committee for his biography of Stalin. Following that effort – and still a committed Leninist – he went after the even older material on his hero. The result left him a changed man and I cannot imagine anyone other than a socialist fanatic denying his research or conclusions about Lenin.

The two conclusions relevant here are that Volkogonov unearthed copious correspondence from Lenin, (telegrams, letters, notes) demonstrating that he not only knew he would be starting a civil war but that hewanted to start, indeed that he had to start one. In rejecting the path of reform and the evolutionary development of the country, it was predetermined that civil war must follow:

”whoever recognises class war must recognise civil wars, which in any class society represent the natural and, in certain circumstances, inevitable continuation, development and sharpening of class war” – from September 1916, Lenin, Polnoe sobranie sochinenii(1961-65)

As Volkogonov points out, you can certainly throw some responsibility at the imperialist powers assisting the counter-revolution, but their efforts were utterly unplanned and uncoordinated (which is one of the main reasons they failed).

The overwhelming cause of the appalling Russian civil strife lay in the heart of Lenin’s strategy, which was to completely destroy the old order so that a New World would arise. Not just the governing classes but the very norms and ingrained customs of Russian life. He started a policy of violence against millions of people, and himself took a daily hand in applying the measures, giving advice and instructions on how the policy should be carried out. Nobody could have been under any illusions that such actions would spark a full-scale civil war. Certainly no one nowadays should be.

And this latter point enjoins the nonsense put forward by your reviewer about “no proof being offered” that Lenin ordered the deaths of tens of thousands. Volkogonov reviewed hundreds of telegrams and exhortations sent out by Lenin:

”Merciless war against these kulaks! Death to them” – August 1918, from Plekhanov’s 1921 book God na rodine

”…..temporarily to appoint your own army commanders and shoot conspirators and waverers without asking anyone or any idiotic red tape” – instruction to a party boss in Saratov in August 1918.

”……In a fourth place, one out of every ten people guilty of parasitism should be executed on the spot.” – from his pamphlet “How to Organise Competition”

“…..surprised and alarmed by the delay in operations against Kazan. In my opinion, you shouldn’t spare the city and delay any further, because what is needed is remorseless destruction” – a September 1918 cable to Trotsky.

”catch and shoot the Astrakhan speculators and bribe takers. These swine have to be dealt so that everyone will remember it for years.” – instructions to Shlyapnikov, Dec 1918.

”….If you are not absolutely sure you have forces for a ferocious and relentless reprisal, cable us immediately and in detail. – cable to Sokolnikov expressing annoyance at the delay in suppressing a Cossack uprising on the southern front.

What does your reviewer need – Lenin’s fucking signature on each death warrant?

Perhaps he’s simply another sap. Volkogonov again on Lenin:

It is true that in many articles he published and the many public speeches he made during this period, he rarely called for the shooting of counter-revolutionaries or traitors. He preferred to issue his harsh instructions in coded telegrams, confidential notes or anonymous decrees in the name of the Sovnarkom. He cared about his reputation, and did not want to stain it with the notoriety of a hangman. In this he was moderately successful, as history has not on the whole judged him badly in this light”

Well, not until all that stuff became public after 1991 anyway.

The key point again is that a reviewer who moans about the undue focus given the “same old same old” in a critique of socialism, with the implication that such things are well understood and exposed (though not resolved) buries in the heart of the review an enormous piece of ignorance, quite possibly a bald lie, that goes to the heart of one of the founding myths of modern socialism. Perhaps we need “Heaven on Earth II – Original Sin”.
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October 8, 2007 12:11am
tom hunter

Nuts

Nobody could have been under any illusions that such actions would spark a full-scale civil war

should be:
Nobody could have been under any illusions that such actions would fail to spark a full-scale civil war

Obviously it’s bed time
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October 8, 2007 12:14am

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