General Debate 13 October 2008

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OECD rank 22 kiwi

Why does McCain feel the need to defend the Defeatocrats? Obama has done some shady things.

Surely he should be concentrating on winning the Presidential race.
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October 13, 2008 8:07am
philu

if it were a yacht race..

..you’d have to say national are somewhat rudderless/becalmed/lost..

..and i’m picking yr internal polling is causing widespread wailing/renting of garments/and gnashing of teeth..

whereas labour have achieved a new gravitas/air of competency/security..

..’in charge’..

it’s all fast turning to custard for national..eh..?

and if you were sheet-anchoring on that colmar-brunton poll from last night..

..it’s best to remember they were 8 points out at the last election..

..whereas roy morgan were right on the money..at the last election..

oo-err..!..

..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 13, 2008 8:16am
Ford Nucleon

Did it strike anyone else watching the new Zealand Music Awards the other night how well Labour has managed to harness the culture industry in NZ?

By being the biggest wallet in a small market, Labour has managed to get the key cultural influencers on its side and promote arts and music that reflect Labour values.

Is this something the Nats will have to change if they are hoping for a long run in power? Is it even on their radar?
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October 13, 2008 8:18am
philu

and then of course there is this to factor in..

http://whoar.co.nz/2008/the-national-party-dreamof-support-from-the-maori-partyis-over/

all in all..it’s pretty grim..

..eh..?

..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 13, 2008 8:27am
Portia

“Did it strike anyone else watching the New Zealand Music Awards the other night how well Labour has managed to harness the culture industry in NZ?… Is this something the Nats will have to change if they are hoping for a long run in power?”

Brent Edwards on Morning Report commented that he recognised all the music at the National Party launch, so figured it must have come from the 1970s (!) (This, he thought, was a bit incongruous given the “looking to a brighter future” slogan.) He didn’t recognise any of the music at the Labour launch, so figured it was more contemporary (bless him, yes Brent it was from this millenium) 😀

In other words, Labour won the “cool” stakes at the launch contest yesterday.

It’s important not to underestimate the sublimal powers at work here …
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October 13, 2008 8:29am
NeillR

Why is National so intent on losing this election? They’re trying to play “Mr Nice” while Labour is setting the agenda. For instance – the tax debate has now come down to “Nationa’s cuts aren’t any bigger than ours and they’re unaffordable”. Wake the fuck up, if it wasn’t for National’s plan in 05 there would be no “Labour tax-cuts”. National needs to tell people that this entire tax cut is theres (Nationals), there is no fucken comparison. And then they need to put the fear into potential Labour voters. “Only National will deliver tax-cuts, Labour will cancel them”. “It doesn’t matter how much goes into Kiwisaver if you don’t have a job” It’s that simple, or it should be. Key said a while back if you’re explaining you’re losing – and he’s doing far too much explaining.

The economy. Forget the current crisis, we have been going down the toilet for the last three years. And it’s due to the excessive bribes that were handed out at the last election. National needs to plant fear into the electorate, just like Labour (and Clark in particular) is doing. “Where is the money coming from” – this needs to be a Pavlovian mantra in response to EVERY Labour announcement.

If National lose this, then Murray McCully has a lot to answer for – i understand he was involved in ’02 and ’05 and this election has all the hallmarks of those two previous fuck-ups. Wake up, this country cannot afford another three years of Labour, especially with the current economic crisis.
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October 13, 2008 8:29am
democracymum

At the moment I’m feeling a little like we are playing a rugby game, where our players are being take are on the opposition’s side, and the opposition got also got to decide what the rules of the game (the EFS) should be.

In retaliation, I feel we need to come up with some bright ideas to redress the balance. One thing we can do is click on any of the Labour ads currently running on line. They are running some huge banner ads at the moment and also if you type Labour into google they are also running some adwords campaigns.

Each time we click on these, it will cost them money probably (around 70c for the adwords) , although I don’t think for a moment they will account for them in their electoral spending. But it is one way of getting our own back on a party that stole taxpayers money to get themselves back into power in 2005.

Next I think we need to put our collective thinking caps to come up with some other ideas to undermine this government before they have a chance to erode our democracy for another 3 years. One way is to heavy the MSM for their appallingly biased reporting so I may post the complaints details for these organisations each time this occurs.

Any other ideas would be greatly received.
National – Nice guys finish last. We can’t let this happen we need to rally for the cause.
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October 13, 2008 8:36am
democracymum

NeilR

We are together on this, you read my mind!
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October 13, 2008 8:37am
expat

ha, labour are fucked.

see ya later hulun and mikhael. the nz music awards is well recognised by those actually in the industry as a sychophantic group blowjob of those leeching cash out of government agencies. Jude Tizzards job.

The kids think Hels is naff.
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October 13, 2008 8:41am
Chicken Little

I’m wondering if Auckland University has sorted out the muck up with Phules Masters degree yet?
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October 13, 2008 8:41am
Portia

“Only National will deliver tax-cuts, Labour will cancel them”. “It doesn’t matter how much goes into Kiwisaver if you don’t have a job”

You’re right, but it doesn’t matter how big your tax cuts are if you don’t have a job either. The two are effectively cancelled out if rising unemployment is likely (as both parties agree it is). Which is why Labour stole the march yesterday with some policy targeted at those who risk losing their jobs (irrespective of its merits, the point was that they at least HAD some policy).

The economic uncertainty means that the agenda for this election campaign is now mercurial. It is up to National to demonstrate how easily they can adapt to deal with the curve balls that are coming from all directions; ie they are facing a test of their governmental mettle. Actions, not words, will win this election.
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October 13, 2008 8:44am
Portia

er, why am I being moderated David??
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October 13, 2008 8:50am
expat

Ford, Portia,

The labour commies have spent their way to support.

If youve seen some of he NZ on Air tripe thats been pissed up against wall with tax payer dollars that i have youd be ill.

How do you counter that circle jerk in opposition?

In summary, the commie art leeches will only move on from labour when the economy is sufficiently fucked that they are economically pinched.
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October 13, 2008 8:58am
philu

come on chicky..for once in your blogging life..

really really try to address the issues..eh..?

your beloved parties’ election campaign/strategy is going down the toilet..

global/local economies are in meltdown..

and what do we get from you..?

..the same old..same old..bullshit..eh..?

..don’t you get as bored with yourself as we do..?

..with your just pretending it is constantly groundhog day..

..and that you can say the same (already covered/answered) thing..over and over..and over again..

…and that nobody will notice..?

..your mindless ‘cheeps’..are just that..

..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 13, 2008 9:04am
siobhan

Can someone PLEASE explain to me why the F*%k Clark is getting Kudos for giving a deposit guarantee.

They had no choice but to follow what Australia are doing. AND ALSO (just to F*%k me off even more), she is still the Prime Minister of the current government – she is only doing what she SHOULD be doing. Just in case the nimrods from the MSM have forgotten.

Maybe someone should remind them (MSM) that this crisis is happening regardless of the fact that NZ has an election around the corner. And from memory it is pretty F*%ken difficult to govern from the opposition benches.

S*$T Pi$s and Corruption

That is all.
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October 13, 2008 9:05am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

The ETS still a bad idea:
Roger Douglas – The Madness of the Emissions Trading Scheme

Only one party willing to scrap it.
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October 13, 2008 9:06am
expat

Labour are fucked phil – their last roll of the dice is doomed.

be a shame if hulun and jude got outed soon huh!
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October 13, 2008 9:07am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Labour go bye bye this 8 November. Time to get ready for the celebrations.
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October 13, 2008 9:12am
OECD rank 22 kiwi

“If you vote for the Greens you are making Helen Clark Prime Minister with knobs on.”:
Roger Douglas on MMP

So true.
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October 13, 2008 9:17am
thedavincimode

Amazingly, a significant policy announcement reported in the last 2 or 3 days appears to have slid under the radar of the blogosphere.

Whilst the world crashes around us, it is comforting to see one man has the vision and foresight to lead this country on its slide down the plughole. A man prepared to step up to the plate and set out to capture the jaws, if not the hearts and minds of the people. That trailblazer just happens to be the nice Mr Anderton who seems to be targeting DENTAL HEALTH as the crucial policy ground upon which he will do battle in this election.

What was the inspirational cue for this strategic insight? Was it the gnashing of teeth and flapping of gums that has accompanied the decline in our fortunes. Was it the $20,000 overhaul of Rodney’s choppers? Or was the years of being confronted by The Leader’s shortcomings in the porcelain department as a consequence of years of trial and, without exception error, by the dentistry profession? Perhaps we shall never know.
This revolutionary strategy will give the voters much to chew on over the next 4 weeks. It remains to be seen if the voters will swallow it, or whether he will fall flat on his own dental work. Will this enable him to bridge the gap to becoming a 100% MP? Or will he remain capped at 0.81% of an MP? Is this the floss that will dislodge voters from the political molars of the other pretenders and splatter them onto the mirror of Regressive Party support. Or is he just mouthing off? Can he deliver or has he bitten off more than he can chew? Will it solve his political halitosis? What is the future for this political plaque that clings with barnacle-like tenacity to the trouser suits of The Leader? (I could go on but I’m as bored as you are by now)

This isn’t an election about trust. Its about TEETH!

Give that man a mouthwash!!!
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October 13, 2008 9:20am
Matthew

While I have no regard for Labour with their current regime because it is morally bankrupt, lying, corrupt, selfish, arrogant, revisionist, blind, manipulative, controlling, murdering, naive and hedonistic, I am sick and tired of the mouse that National has become. National needs to be a party of its own conviction and because this country needs some tough medicine because of the reckless borrowing it has engaged in for a long time then National has to come out and say so. National will not be getting my vote (and neither will I vote for Labour) because they do not have the guts to say the truth. This reminds me of a mouse and indeed is a character issue. Our current dictator, Clark (because that is what she is), has literally cowed them into silence. They are fearful of upsetting the electorate with the truth and the reason for that is because they fear losing the election.

This reminds me of that scene in Star Wars Three where there is a dungeon like cave underneath that Jabber the Hut would get his enemies or other such victims thrown into to meet the uninmaginable monster. In our world, Labour is that monster, while the equivalent of National is a mouse about to meet its death because, well, because it is a mouse.

The world is going through a current meltdown because of the socialist style policies of Clinton in the 1990s, and Bush’s inability to reverse them in the 2000s. And how does the US electorate look like responding? By electing an even more socialist President to compliment the current socialist Congress. If the people over there do that, then they will suffer even more. The same seems to apply here, but I’m hoping that our electorate doesn’t forget the socially irrelevant legislation for Civil Unions, the destructive Care of Children Act, the appointment of practising abortionists to the ASC (and their breach of the ASC Act), the EFA, all the -gates that we’ve had because of Clark, the legislation that outlawed parents to be parents, banning lightbulbs, and the corruption that is endemic at the high layers of our police force and partially in Dunedin.

Get rid of this current Governement, but for goodness sake replace it with people of conviction. Not that we need another “strong” Government, because we all know what that means, but we need people of conviction.

In its current self-portrayal National is not the answer.
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October 13, 2008 9:31am
democracymum

Oh look another Labour Leader in trouble over receiving donations from a wealthy millionaire

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1076718/Secret-documents-prove-WAS-No-10-cover-F1-chief-Bernie-Ecclestones-1million-gift-Labour.html

I see the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree
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October 13, 2008 9:46am
philu

expat..and oecd..

..you really are ‘true believers’..aren’t you..?

..able to ignore any evidence contradicting your thesis of the moment..

..you are in total denial..

..even your man hooten noted on nat rad..that when the polls are averaged out..

..that the razor-thin majority national hold..only needs to slip by a couple of points.

..and lab/grn/p + whoever is the winner..

..also..remember that this poll change happened before nationals’ totally over-egged/promised..but in the event..underwhelming..tax policy..

..so it will only get worse for national..

..labour/clark/cullen are looking the ‘safe-hands’ we need at this point in time/meltdown..

..and..also..in hindsight..cullens economic policies of the last nine years..

..were ‘the right thing to do’..

(a national government/policies of those years..would have left us much more vulnerable..now..)

..all of this will become more and more clear to the voters..

..as labour roll out their policy solutions/safe-guards..

..key..the money-market man..and his/nationals’ slash/burn/privatise/secret agenda-ridden/win-at-all-costs desperation..

..will be seen as just that..

..but hey..!..dream on..!..oecd + expat..!

..just be prepared to crash and burn..

..and hey..!..you could always just leave us/the country ‘to it’..eh..?

oh..!..that’s right..!

..you already have..eh..?

..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 13, 2008 9:48am
DamnedAngry

That shit you’re smoking morning & night has really fucked up your head Philu! Never read so much rambling nonsense in my life.

Best thing that could happen to you is for one someone to do a home invasion, beat the crap out of you and steal all your weed & P!

Oh and grab your PC and trash it so that we can be left alone to talk sensible politics…
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October 13, 2008 10:06am
philu

cullen and english are on nat-rad..

..english is waffling on..spouting generalities..

ryan is trying to get him to say what national would do..

.he has nothing..!

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 13, 2008 10:21am
philu

after you..angry one..

..start talking ‘sensible politics’..

..off you go then..

..make your 12th comment ‘count’..

..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 13, 2008 10:23am
Lee

The current Colmar poll has National so far ahead (51% to Labours pathetic 33%) that anyone with more than two braincells to rub together can see the writing on the wall.

Which of course disqualifies philu.
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October 13, 2008 10:29am
expat

pat pat – there there phil. dont get your blood pressure up buddy, and remember, save your passion for your day job!
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October 13, 2008 10:39am
philu

lee..last election..two days out..

..colmar predicted a victory to national..

..and were 8 points off in their result prediction..

..still so certain..?

..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 13, 2008 10:45am
philu

i see your 10.39 is up to the usual intellectual rigor of your usual mindless sloganeering..

..expat..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 13, 2008 10:49am
expat

no sloganeering phil, i was patronising you.
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October 13, 2008 10:51am
philu

english was dire..

..after saying nothing..except waffle..

..at the end of the interview/debate

..ryan tried one last time..

..to get english to say..specifically..what he/national would do..

..englishs’ reply..?

..’i’ve already told you..time and time again..’..(or wtte..)

..you could hear/see ryan throwing her hands up in the air..

..(priceless..!..)

..and if you doubt my ‘review’..?

..go listen for yourselves on the nat-rad website..

..if you are a natty..

..you’ll have your head in your hands..

..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 13, 2008 10:55am
PhilBest

Damned Angry, let me introduce you to my little theories about “philu”.

I am aware that in Canada and Sweden at least, there are people who are paid, usually on the payroll of a government “quango” like a “Human Rights Commission”, who spend serious amounts of time trolling on blogs and making comments aimed at inciting reactions from right-wingers that can later be prosecuted under “hate speech” legislation. Powers for surviellance of the internet on the most shallow of bases is already a total reality in those countries.

We may not have such legislation yet, but we are dreaming if we think it is not coming, and we are dreaming if we do not think that somewhere, there are already little minions of the Sisterhood busily accumulating “evidence” that such legislation is “necessary”. So I think a bit and I wonder, of all the lefty trolls with whom we are familiar, who might be doing this filthy, quisling, work?

Think about this. A guy who says he has an M.A., who also says he is on a benefit and has no intention of working, says he is the solo parent of a son, says he is a Greenie (and how!) and a “vegan”, says he is a pot smoker and has criminal convictions, claims to speak for all these classes of people, makes comments all the time that show he is quite skilled at pressing the hot buttons of right wingers, and he seems to have endless capacity for internet research, and no matter how long and complicated a blog thread gets and how slow it loads, “philu” is there at the end again and again. Tell me, how does a “bludger” afford this kind of internet time and bandwidth? And is it possible for one guy to actually be so many things that are a red rag to right wingers?

Doubts have been raised whether a certain “Philip Ure” who is known to exist, has an M.A. I am inclined to suspect that the existence of THAT “Philip Ure” is a coincidence, and that this is NOT the REAL name of the troll known to us. I have my suspicions of why he chose that name, too; he actually has an acute wit, if he was a right-winger he would be very like P. J. O’Rourke.

Anyway, I strongly advocate that those with the time and resources make some efforts to blow this guy’s cover, what gets revealed could well make for another chapter of a book by Ian Wishart.
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October 13, 2008 10:57am
philu

to first patronise..

..don’t you need to be someone/something..?

..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 13, 2008 10:57am
expat

BBBBBBzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Whats that annoying … period ….sound?

Anyone else hear it?
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October 13, 2008 11:01am
philu

brilliant comment from phil best..!

i’ve linked to it..

http://whoar.co.nz/2008/the-paranoia-of-the-right-wing/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 13, 2008 11:11am
Ford Nucleon

PhilBest. I think the explanation is much more simple. Philu seems to exist merely to sabotage interesting and constructive discussion by clogging it with his paranoid, distracting and annoyingly formatted posts.
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October 13, 2008 11:11am
siobhan

Ford : Pull U does everyone a favour by commenting the way he does (double spaced). It is easily identifiable, so you can scroll on past without mistakenly reading whatever bollocks he has come up with today.

Pull U – thanks ya big tool.
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October 13, 2008 11:22am
expat

‘it’ is rolling another bifta and laughing at the people wasting their time discussing ‘it’
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October 13, 2008 11:23am
Chthoniid

Alternatively he is still trying to get his blog up to 2 visits per day.
He comes here because this is the only site he gets noticed. And hopes that someone will click the links he provides.

See, we could be the closest things to friends PhilU has.
Feeling the aroha…

I find the formatting helps to skip over the posts entirely btw. I don’t think anything new or interesting has been added to the first two posts of his I’ve read. So nothing’s really lost…
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October 13, 2008 11:25am
s.russell

Many people seem to believe that National’s best election strategy would be to denounce Labour as “morally bankrupt, lying, corrupt, selfish, arrogant, revisionist, blind, manipulative, controlling, murdering, naive and hedonistic” evil-doers, declare that Roger Douglas should be finance minister; and promise to abolish tax for high income-earners, sell all SoEs, and force all sickness beneficiaries to mine coal for new coal-fired power stations.

I suggest that there is no danger of anyone who believes in these policies voting for Labour or any other party of the left. So why should National concentrate on winning votes from these people?

To win the election (necessary to be able to do anything more than howl in anguish from the Opposition benches) National needs to win the support of people who are TEMPTED TO VOTE LABOUR. Anyone so tempted sees things very very differently from the people first described. And pursuing the strategy they suggest would be the most effective way of losing the election.
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October 13, 2008 11:26am
Chthoniid

Next question- why could the Greens get $1bn out of Helen for insulation, but getting an extra $10m to keep the DoC funding ahead of inflation and escape jobcuts was impossible?
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October 13, 2008 11:29am
aardvark

Who has put down a deposit for the new Airpod?

I suspect the Greens will be pushing this vehicle as the solution to our transportation and environmental problems

ROTFL.
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October 13, 2008 11:59am
NeillR

You’re right, but it doesn’t matter how big your tax cuts are if you don’t have a job either.
Portia, to deliver a tax cut at a time when the economy has tanked will have a much better chance of succeeding than stufffing an excess amount into savings – which are being subsidised by the taxpayer.
On top of that, Labour wants to increase spending by offering training allowances to allow workers to upskill. Where was that policy nine years ago when Labour first started talking about the knowledge economy? You know, the one that was going to deliver us back to the top half of the OECD? Instead they have driven the greatest number of skilled workers out of this country in our history. Labour are out of ideas, out of money and if the electorate has any sense – out of here.
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October 13, 2008 12:00pm
PhilBest

S. Russell, at 11.26, you are right, but sorry, I think the result of this is a no-win situation. If John Key wins this election, by “winning over Labour voters”, he will have 3 years of hell. He could not inherit a worse position, and the MSM are so biased, they will give him hell no matter what he does. And the people of NZ are obviously so economically illiterate, the MSM will succeed in railroading Key out and the Heleban back in, in 3 years flat. Remember the Nats getting 24 percent of the vote in 2002? What had they done to deserve that? How does the Heleban still enjoy 30-40% support after 9 years of scandal?

If Key does anything really bold that might have the slightest chance of turning the NZ economy around, he will be beaten up from here to eternity for “breaking promises” and having a “secret agenda”, and we will have the message rammed down our throats from here to eternity that we cannot trust the main “right of the spectrum” politicians ever again. But if he just does the barest minimum, softly, softly, don’t upset the stupid sheeple, the economy will continue to bomb like it was going to anyway thanks to 9 years of Liarbour plus the international crisis; and the MSM will spin this endlessly as the Nats fault. Either way, the MSM and the Heleban will spend the next 9 years blaming 3 years of John Key for the deepening mess they continue to make of NZ, and the stupid, stupid, stupid people will keep believing it.

Many more years of the Heleban following 3 years of John Key, will be hell. So I actually wonder if the best bet is for John Key to NOT win this election. Let Helen and Mikhael manage the crisis THEIR way. I and many others like me thought that things were obvious enough now, and the Heleban was on its way to being wiped out. But no, it seems that the stupid, stupid, stupid sheeple of NZ have been frightened by the very crisis that has occurred in NZ under the Heleban and thanks to the Democrats in the USA, into wanting nanny state blanky politics to “rescue” them, they cannot trust the free market believing right wing to be any help.

I think John Key needs to do the sort of tough talking now that as you rightly say, will NOT win over Labour voters. Warn them of the consequences of their preferred politicians ideology, and if they lose the election, spend the next 3 years on the attack saying “We Told You So”. Keep doing this until the stupid, stupid, stupid sheeple of NZ have learnt their lesson. At some stage, if not now, if not in 3 years, if not in 6 years; that tough talking and saying “We Told You So” has to register. The trouble is, by doing the opposite, by going “me too” all the time, they are tacitly providing confirmation in peoples minds that there is really not a lot wrong with Labour’s economic management, perpetuating NZ’s long term problems, and inviting a one-term stay in government apon themselves.

Sack Murray McCully as strategist. Perhaps he’s the Labour Party’s high placed stooge?
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October 13, 2008 12:33pm
PhilBest

What we might be seeing from all this, is not so much the demise of Capitalism, as the demise of “big government”. All over the world, governments tax revenues are collapsing AND CREDIT is TIGHTENING. So there is every possibility that governments will both run out of revenue AND be unable to borrow.

It would be better to have Helen and Mikhael cling to government again now and do a swift suicide job, rather like the end of “Atlas Shrugged”. If they have to go into coalition with the Greens, all the better for the swiftness of the suicide. John Key is too much of a nice guy to have to spend 3 years of hell prolonging the agony of the country and then getting blamed for it forever after when it is not his fault at all.
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October 13, 2008 12:44pm
Redbaiter

“Sack Murray McCully as strategist. Perhaps he’s the Labour Party’s high placed stooge?”

I’m not sure he is a strategist. I can’t seem him going along with this ingratiating “media please please please like me” approach. Its what kept Brash from winning, and one would think they’d have learn’t.

(I had [just] managed to swing my old Gran away from voting for Winston when she saw the humiliating interview of Brash by Susan Wood wherein she accused him of lying over the Brethren meetings and Brash, as ineffectual as a slice of wet toast, tried to smile his way out of it. She said “I’m not voting for that weak pansy- Winston has twice his spunk”)
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October 13, 2008 12:46pm
DamnedAngry

I vote for PhilBest to replace Murray McCully, with RedBaiter chosen as his assistant.
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October 13, 2008 12:48pm
baxter

Cullen has announced he will introduce a mini budget in December to deal with the financial situation…Goodbye Liabour’s tax cuts………I agree with others the National campaign seems to be a repeat of the nice guy campaigns of Shipley and Brash.. As for the polls I don’t think they can be trusted for one thing they don’t take into account the voting patterns in underclass ghettos such as South Auckland where the only policy that matters is more welfare.
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October 13, 2008 12:50pm
freethinker

When is a media wimp going to ask Winnocent and Snake oil Dunne to prove they have paid back the money thye stole off the taxpayer and in Winnocents case when is the IRD going to send him a gift duty bill plus interest and penalties?
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October 13, 2008 1:06pm
thedavincimode

Has anyone out there in the ether come across this little wheeze regarding Labour’s plans prior to Xmas? Overheard (well eavesdropped by all accounts) between a couple of likely types seriously on the piss; one of whom appears to have been a senior union official and the other some sort of paid party flea either well in with or part of the ninth floor cabal.

It seems that there is to be announcement of a 5% (likely, but the number could change) tax surcharge on earnings of $10,000 and then $25,000 above the 1 April 09 top tax bracket (ie 44% from $70,000 to $95,000) and 49% thereafter. This would then move up in line with increases in the 39% thresholds announced for 2010 and 2011. This would be justified on the basis of these trying times and no doubt, based on previous experience, with the favourite line that: “those that earn more can afford to pay more and that is consistent with a just and fair society”.

The effect of outbound migration on reductions in the personal tax take hasn’t been lost on Gummint either by all accounts, although it seems that until now the policy was to bring in potential Labour voters as distinct from encouraging non Labour voters to buggar off.

This would allow the Leader and The Leader’s Flush Faced Accomplice to deny any suggestions that their tax cut package has been pulled. It seems that they have also recently latched onto the fact that potentially plummeting interest rates will compensate eg 1.5% to 2% interest rate reduction on a $300,000 mortgage is equivalent to the 5% tax hike. And why shouldn’t The Leader pocket the interest rate reductions? After all, The Leader is now guaranteeing the banks (albeit with taxpayers’ credit).

Does this have any legs? The fact that any such move would be so cynical would certainly add plausibility.
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October 13, 2008 1:45pm
side show bob

I wouldn’t be to worried thedavincimode if the socialist are returned to office then shit will really hit the fan. Pretty hard to drop tax cuts and up the tax rates when their is nothing to tax. Give it another year and watch these parasitc worms start squeal like stuck pigs I have heard that one (very)large company is thinking about moving it’s funds to an off shore account should the socialists get back in power. Dear Leader talks about trust, there is sweet piss all trust in these bastards out in rural NZ.
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October 13, 2008 2:34pm
Redbaiter

Bloggers bloggers bloggers- listen up..!!!

Story I mentioned some weeks ago about Obama’s missing US birth certificate- this is getting a lot bigger with Obama’s grandmother reportedly saying she was present at his birth IN KENYA. Reports are that there are legitimate copies of the certificate covering this birth.

Law suit (by pro Hillary Democrat) forcing Obama to provide proof of US birth blocked by Obama lawyers and now by Democrat Party. Why? Why don’t they just produce the proof??

This is developing into another “Bush National Guard fake papers” style story, with the MSM as usual refusing to report on it. The bloggers need to go on this, and as they did back then, shame the lying deceitful partisan mainstream media into reporting the truth.
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October 13, 2008 3:11pm
Hoolian

DPF has been a little slow on the uptake so I’ll broach the subject…

What does everyone think of todays announcement by Labour of universial student allowances by 2012?

– http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz-election-2008/news/article.cfm?c_id=1501799&objectid=10537245
– http://www.stuff.co.nz/4725735a28435.html

Another bribe or policy long overdue?
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October 13, 2008 3:17pm
Redbaiter

Klark wan’t every student to grow up as fucked in the head as she is, and she wants me and you to pay for this indoctrination.
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October 13, 2008 3:22pm
NeillR

hoolian – HOW ARE THEY GOING TO PAY FOR IT?
It’s a simple question – get all your friends to ask it.
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October 13, 2008 3:23pm
Nefarious

Great, let’s waste however many fuckin dollars it is a week to pay the likes of phule to spend 3 hrs a week listening to some beard wearing cottager preach socialism to the masses.

How some loser studying “the history of man boy love in christchurch city” at the taxpayers expense is going to advance society is beyond me.

Doctors, engineers, accountants and other useful professionals should be bonded to study. The rest can fuck off and waste their own time and money in the library.
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October 13, 2008 3:31pm
Chthoniid

Political opportunism Hoolian. And its is only supposed to cost 120m (3 SI high country stations apparently). The idea that declining productivity growth is caused by a lack of tertiary graduates is absurd. The two biggest obstacles to getting productivity increases has been low levels of capital formation and low rates of innovation. That’s been a product of punitive taxes, an unkind regulatory regime and high interest rates. We don’t need more graduates, we need to let people who can be entrepreneurial keep the returns (rather than treat them as Labour’s tax-bitch).
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October 13, 2008 3:33pm
Hoolian

NeillR – I hope you haven’t mistaken my approaching the subject as some sort of approval. I think its very cunning and I hope National saw it coming – as pretty much every man and his dog knew this would arise. It was the ultimate follow-up from interest-free loans.

Notwithstanding I think its good policy, but think its come too late. There is no way NZ can afford it now, but maybe 2 years ago. I can’t wait to see Clark field questions on where funding will come from…
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October 13, 2008 3:36pm
WraithX

Hoolian said: “I can’t wait to see Clark field questions on where funding will come from…”

Alas, Hoolian, she won’t have to field questions like that – no one in the MSM will bother to ask – they will just fawn over her wonderful policy.

I am starting to wonder whether the MSM is playing a game – to see if they can put National in a position to win, then take it away in 4 short weeks.
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October 13, 2008 3:50pm
Portia

Baxter: “I agree with others the National campaign seems to be a repeat of the nice guy campaigns of Shipley and Brash..”

I don’t think it is so much the “nice guy” (or gal, in JS’ case) strategies. I think the fundamental flaw is the decision not to tell the electorate too much for fear of “frightening the horses”.

This decision hobbles the Leader’s ability to lead, as it does not trust Key, or English and Brash before him, with the courage of their own convictions. Effectively, they are not allowed to go out on a limb and say, “this is what I believe in and this is why I believe in it”.

And being fundamentally honest people, they are set up to fail. They end up speaking in slogans, being too cautious about what they say and sounding, I hate to say it, like “hollow men”. Being unable to lie shamelessly, they also end up looking incredibly guilty when caught out by the inevitable contradiction that results from not being open in the first place.

What happened to the power of persuasion, people? Something very powerful happens when someone speaks about an issue that they believe in. Their voice lowers, their eyes shine, they become more animated. And, ultimately, more compelling. This is the wood that Helen Clark has over John Key at the moment. Whatever you think of her, Clark DOES believe in Labour’s core policies and isn’t afraid to champion them. I fear that until the National Party backs themselves to go out and win the electorate on points of principle, then they’re not going to receive a mandate to govern.
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October 13, 2008 3:57pm
Chthoniid

It’s a cunning move. Compared to the tens-of-billions that get spent by the Govt, $120m isn’t likely to rock the fiscal boat- and you can use 5% inflation to take some of it back anyway. But it’s a highly visible gesture. As a political strategy, these things payoff. Unfortunately it also signals the bidding war for votes has begun.

I think the Nats need to follow suit with low-ticket but ‘attention arresting’ items to get onto the frontpage. I hate to say it, cause this I hate this bidding for votes- but that’s how the incentives are organised. It can’t be vague $1bn a year stuff, it’s going to be the fringe stuff that tips undecided voters. Things that provide a credible signal that the Nats have ‘got the right stuff’ to govern.
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October 13, 2008 4:02pm
philu

i reckon the universal student allowance will just about ‘nail it’ for labour..eh..?

especially with many now staring down the abyss of possibly not being able to afford to educate their children..

the next round of polls will be interesting..

..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 13, 2008 4:15pm
Portia

Just to clarify my position, as I’m sensitive that my posts today have been a tad critical of National, and I don’t want to be accused of trolling!

I’m a lifelong floating voter and haven’t yet made up my mind who I’ll be voting for this election. I’m totally open to a change in government, but believe that a party should earn that right and not simply receive it by default.

Hopefully, this means that I can be more objective than many of the die-hard National and Act voters who contribute to this blog. And that any criticisms are viewed as constructive ones.
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October 13, 2008 4:26pm
philu

crikey..it just keeps on getting worse..for you nattys..

..john armstrong was just on nat-rad..saying how lame-arse nationals’ launch was..and how energised labours’ was..

..and now audrey young is giving you a boot in the goolies..

http://whoar.co.nz/2008/dull-national-vs-energised-labour/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 13, 2008 4:37pm
dad4justice

phool, does it hurt a eunuch like yourself when kicked with steel caps in the “goolies”?
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October 13, 2008 4:43pm
philu

i think that chill/despondancy(?) in the national camp..is the ‘peters’-effect’..

..the dawning/widening realisation of just how much they blew it with that (failed) conspiracy/attack against peters..

..and the idiocies of ruling peters out of contention post-election..(i mean..!..mmp politics 101..eh..?..)

..and y’know..!

..they haven’t even wheeled out scary old sir ‘wodger’ yet..have they..?

..it’s not looking good..

..and is it the ‘mccully effect’..?

..will this be the third election defeat..each after a lame-arse/’wrong’ campaign..

..that is ‘down to mccully’..?

..phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 13, 2008 4:45pm
grumpyoldhori

Philu, goolies, please this is the new metro Nat party, they have no goolies.
Damn, in a bit of a fix Nats are you not, all those Labour voters in Epsom voting for Worth to get rid of ACT.
The hories want nothing to do with you, better throw up some more Iwi rules
signs, they worked so well last time.
National getting over 50% on their own, hey, whatever that electric puha is, can I have some.
Oh the wailing, the hair tearing if the Nats have to spend another term in opposition, jeez, twelve years without a flash car.
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October 13, 2008 5:39pm
riki

‘Story I mentioned some weeks ago about Obama’s missing US birth certificate’

Red,

I respect your deep insights into the socialist scourge tearing the fabric of nations apart at the seams,

because you have a gifted skill in portraying said skirmishing, but really,

Obama is a naturalised US citizen anyway. he’s been on american soil longer than the legal requirements.

Even if he was born on foreign soil, that’s just a physcological argument.

He holds a US p/p and would’ve thoroughly been vetted by the Demo’s.

Common sense dictates the Demo’s wouldn’t have promoted him with flimsy platform as citizenship hanging over his head.

Simply put, his family is american, so is he.

And he’s not looking anywhere near homeless.
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October 13, 2008 6:58pm
Steve

Tax cuts.
October 1st good.
Mini budget Dec
Restrospective Ledgistration if Liarbour get in.
No money left and put you in dept forever
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October 13, 2008 8:54pm
jackp

Philbest, I was thinking about Key and what he has to do to win this election. Helen Clark hates men, that is a fact. She also hates National. I hate her but I am not running for office. She is a dyke and John Keys has to start getting mean, very mean. I don’t mind dykes but when they are making major decisions for our families and children, that is a step too far. Keys has to handler her like some monkey screaming in her cage. He’s not, he is only sticking to policy. The public is very illiterate and only gets its info from tv. He has to start swinging.

[DPF: And that is 50 demerits for calling Clark a dyke]
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October 13, 2008 9:47pm

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