General Debate 14 December 2008

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Grant Michael McKenna

I rather enjoyed Bill Ralston‘s piece in the NZ Herald today. The government is keeping its word- and this is indeed a problem for those who are used to the politics of prevarication, promises and puffery.
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December 14, 2008 8:25am
kiwipolemicist

I’m interested in hearing the opinions of Bloglanders regarding Equal Employment Opportunities.

Good thing? Bad thing? Reverse discrimination? Utter nonsense?

IMHO “discrimination” is PC language for “choice” and there’s nothing wrong with it.

Before you tar and feather me, allow me to say that I am in one of the groups that is commonly discriminated against when it comes to seeking employment.

http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2008/12/13/equal-employment-opportunities-nonsense-on-stilts/
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December 14, 2008 8:34am
Lee C

Well, I’m concerned about the constitutional implication of the rush to legislate:
http://monkeyswithtypewriter.blogspot.com/2008/12/time-to-get-real.html

Equal Opps in my opinion is a politically correct imposition of the state’s power over individuals. So I am opposed to it.
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December 14, 2008 8:41am
skyblue

RIP John Drake. He was a brilliant prop. Part of the best front row I have seen, with Steve McDowell & Fitzy.
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December 14, 2008 8:46am
Adolf Fiinkensein

GMM and Bill Ralston have got it right. Those who bleat about the use of urgency are looking at a very small part of a bigger picture. I’ve posted about it at No Minister.

Keep your powder dry chaps. You WILL have a legitimate grouch if NACTtional puts up ‘new’ legislation and passes it under urgency. That was the way of Labour who suddenly find themselves possessed of constitutional virtue.

As far as I can see, pretty much everything going through now was either flagged during the campaign or dealt with in Select Committee during the last term. You really ought to find something more important about which to go crook.
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December 14, 2008 8:53am
kiwipolemicist

Adolf: what constitutional virtue?

We don’t have a constitution and we have a government that may well be illegitimate with no authority to legislate, levy taxes, etc.

Herr Helen previously dodged this issue – now a reader has written to John Key and it’ll be interesting to see if he too dodges the issue.

http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2008/12/12/a-readers-letter-to-john-key/
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December 14, 2008 9:09am
bringbackthebiff

I am glad someone blogged the passing of John Drake, I agree whole heartedly. He was a fine man, and my sympathy to his family. In oz we normally get the partisan rugby commentary of Phil Kearns, Greg Martin and Greg Clark

Drake was as good of a caller of the game as he was a player. I will miss his comments come Season 2009.

RIP indeed
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December 14, 2008 9:11am
Camryn

Just wanted to add my note to the John Drake comments. He dropped by 2 or 3 of my team’s practices when I was in 6th form (the mid 90’s) and gave us some scrumming and line out tips and tricks. A very friendly guy with a strong affection for the game. My thoughts are with his family for losing him so young.
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December 14, 2008 9:16am
goodgod

Adolf: what constitutional virtue?

substitute: parliamentary convention. It’s the closest we have.
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December 14, 2008 9:24am
grumpyoldhori

Damn, only forty nine, RIP John Drake.
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December 14, 2008 9:24am
goodgod

Lee C, the black n white photo on your blogpage, is that you, or are you John Lennon’s twin brother?
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December 14, 2008 9:28am
expat

Yeah I saw that article GMM. Couldnt agree more – the gummint is doing what it said it would do when campaigning. They have a mandate to do so by being elected.

Piss off commies.
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December 14, 2008 9:29am
dad4justice

Piss on commies.
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December 14, 2008 9:35am
expat

I see you have been banned at the substandard D4J, what gives?
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December 14, 2008 9:38am
AG

“Couldnt agree more – the gummint is doing what it said it would do when campaigning.”

You guys just don’t get it. There is an important difference between what policy you deliver and how you go about delivering it. Even if National campaigned on these broad policies, the devil lies in the detail of legislative language and structure. Rushing this stuff through Parliament just stores up problems down the track, and saps the future legitimacy of this institution as our highest lawmaker.

But don’t just take my word for it. Go read this publication (from that well know commie outfit, the Maxim Institute) as to why even those happy with National’s policies (or the policies rushed through by Labour) ought to care.

http://www.maxim.org.nz/index.cfm/Media/article?id=1758
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December 14, 2008 9:42am
WebWrat

Emissions Tax Scam.

Carbon liabilities calculator:

http://www.carbonfarming.org.nz/calculators.php

One of the places I’m working on has:
(All calculations @ Price per tCO2e $25/ton)

12,500 merino sheep.
500 beef cattle.
30 horses.

Based on the data provided, total liabilities will be NZD $131543 per year.

The other farm I work on:

250 beef cattle.
5 horses.

Based on the data provided, total liabilities will be NZD $10761 per year.

Big dairy farm at Ti Pirita:

4,500 cows.

Based on the data provided, total liabilities will be NZD $277875 per year.

Glenary Station near Gore:

32,000 ewes (from memory and not counting dry stock and cattle):

Based on the data provided, total liabilities will be NZD $264000 per year.

My place, which I am not allowed to develop because it is designated to a private company for their irrigation scheme and is therefore bordering on the negative profit line anyway:

200 deer.
300 sheep.
1 horse.
(I don’t appear to have to pay for my 100 goats).

Based on the data provided, total liabilities will be NZD $5790 per year.

If I was to plant my whole property in trees:
E.G.
60 hectares Radiata.
60 hectares Doug Fir.

Based on the data provided, total liabilities will be NZD $-57000 per year.

I guess the dairy farm and Glenary (fat lambs) will be still viable with this tax scam, but the two places I work on and my own will become unprofitable, especially in the (common) lean years for fine wool, beef and venison.

The alternative is to get rid of the livestock, plant whole properties in trees and get paid (by whom?) for 25 years for producing nothing.

So you can see that the Emissions Tax Scam has the potential to massively reduce our export earnings for years to come, put all our eggs in one basket (timber), smother the whole country in trees and totally fuck farming as we know it!
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December 14, 2008 9:43am
side show bob

Kiwipolemicist, why do you think a constitution would make a blind bit of difference to politics in New Zealand. Some people seem to think that a constitution would rein in abuses of power, I doubt it. Just look at the USofA, it seems their constitution is under attack daily from both the politicians, courts and it’s citizens. In NZ we have the much herald Human Rights legislation, how many times was this legislation wheeled out to try and bring to heel an out of control Liarbore government and how many times did it work, sweet piss all. There have been thousands of words written for both constitutions and human rights for the people but all this amounts to nothing when pitted against human nature i.e greed, power etc.

I see the Obama administration is thinking of introducing a “cow tax”, typical fucking lefties. It seems Obama is out to save the world with the help of his retard sidekicks. It see Mr Obama has offer the people many times more then he can hope to deliver perhaps the “cow tax” will help to boost the budget. Of course all this will go down like a shower of shit.
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December 14, 2008 9:45am
dad4justice

“I see you have been banned at the substandard D4J, what gives?”

expat – the mental ones over at the substandard banned me after I wouldn’t do a guest post ?
What strange kids they are over at that deranged playground.
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December 14, 2008 9:45am
Redbaiter

Obama Birth Certificate video-

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=sX7uuhHXs-0

If you want to understand what more and more people are becoming concerned about, watch it.

This is not a tin foil hat issue. This is a Constitutional requirement. That the “objective” mainstream media refuses to report on it is another measure of their corruption to the leftist cause.
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December 14, 2008 9:46am
expat

AG – “You guys just don’t get it.”

No we get “it” mate. After the past 5 years of democracy abuse and constitutional buggery by the Labour gummint, we get it real good. National campaigned on policy, released during the campaign, was elected and has enacted it.

Pretty simple stuff.
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December 14, 2008 9:52am
expat

New Topic:

Whats with all the refugees from the substandard here at the moment?

Thoughts.
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December 14, 2008 9:56am
oranjemakker

Webwrat,
Shame on you…. why would labour and the Green care about farmers, after all they are smart enough not to vote for them and their idiotic policies.

But hte funny thing is, that deep down, and they hate to admit it, they know that farming is about the only sector of the economy that is paying for the welfare state these days on which they all rely… after all, how many of these tossers actually work independently for a living (excluding the “jobs” most of them hold, e.g. academics, students, welfare recipients, trade unionists, poiliticians). So in the end of the day, they are all capitalists really, ebcause we pay for all their bullshit. Wankers. No point living in a peniless socialist paradise!

On that note, Jafawhatever, George Dull etc… do you people actually contribute in any productive way to our economy and society? (defending the interests of snails and the delicate sensitivities of rapists and murderers does not apply)
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December 14, 2008 10:01am
oranjemakker

Red,
one of the problems I have with the Obama birth cert story is that so many of the people propagating this story seem to be either known conspriacy theorists or are on the extreme right wing like Rush Limbaugh (who in my opinion, despite my general conservative political views, is a buffoon), i.e. not exactly impartial. There is an interesting story on Salon (and while I know this is a liberal source, I think its worth reading for another perspective).
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/12/05/birth_certificate/

Excerpt:
But that doesn’t matter. The faux controversy isn’t going to go away soon. Yes, Obama was born in Hawaii, and yes, he is eligible to be president. But according to several experts in conspiracy theories, and in the psychology of people who believe in conspiracy theories, there’s little chance those people who think Obama is barred from the presidency will ever be convinced otherwise. “There’s no amount of evidence or data that will change somebody’s mind,” says Michael Shermer, who is the publisher of Skeptic magazine and a columnist for Scientific American, and who holds an undergraduate and a master’s degree in psychology. “The more data you present a person, the more they doubt it … Once you’re committed, especially behaviorally committed or financially committed, the more impossible it becomes to change your mind.”

Any inconvenient facts are irrelevant. People who believe in a conspiracy theory “develop a selective perception, their mind refuses to accept contrary evidence,” Chip Berlet, a senior analyst with Political Research Associates who studies such theories, says. “As soon as you criticize a conspiracy theory, you become part of the conspiracy.”

Evan Harrington, a social psychologist who is an associate professor at the Chicago School of Professional Psychology, agrees. “One of the tendencies of the conspiracy notion, the whole appeal, is that a lot of the information the believer has is secret or special,” Harrington says. “The real evidence is out there, [and] you can give them all this evidence, but they’ll have convenient ways to discredit [it].”

Whatever can’t be ignored can be twisted to fit into the narrative; every new disclosure of something that should, by rights, end the controversy only opens up new questions, identifies new plotters. Perhaps the most common argument of those questioning Obama’s eligibility is that he should just release his full, original birth certificate, rather than the shorter certification, which is a copy. His failure to do so only proves there is reason to be suspicious, they say, and if the document was released, the issue would go away. But that’s unlikely. It was, after all, the Obama campaign’s release of the certification this summer that stoked the fever of conspiracy mongers.

For believers, it works like this: So what if Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the director of Hawaii’s Department of Health, released a statement saying she has verified that the state has the original birth certificate on record? So what if she said separately that the certification looks identical to one she was issued for her own Hawaii birth certificate? Why didn’t her statement specify Obama’s birthplace? So what if a Hawaii Health Department spokeswoman later clarified that Fukino meant that Obama was born in Hawaii? So what if researchers for FactCheck.org actually saw the physical copy of the certification and debunked much of the key “evidence” supposedly proving that the image posted online is a forgery? They’re not really independent. They’re funded by the Annenberg Public Policy Center, and Obama once (with Bill Ayers, no less) ran an entirely unrelated program that happened to be paid for with money donated by Walter Annenberg. And on and on and on.

If the long-form birth certificate were released, with its unequivocal identification of Hawaii as Obama’s place of birth, the cycle would almost certainly continue. Rush Limbaugh already suggested that Obama’s trip to Hawaii to see his ailing grandmother, who died not long after, was somehow connected to the controversy. Others, like Michael Savage, followed Limbaugh’s lead, saying Obama was going to Hawaii to alter the record.
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December 14, 2008 10:16am
WebWrat

oranjemakker …. got it in one.

Just had a thought.

Councils/Gummint support a private company seizing private property to enable the Central Plains to become a huge factory farm.

Lets say the irrigation scheme encourages large corperate dairy farms to take over the Plains (off the top of my head):

60,000 cows

Based on the data provided, total liabilities will be NZD $3705000 per year.

A socialist tax scam dream come true! I bet bent Benson-Pope was creaming his jeans when he gave a private company permision to steal my farm!
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December 14, 2008 10:28am
side show bob

Redbaiter, there is an article on the scoop website that is getting a lot of hits from the USA, it’s well worth a read. It seems mr O may be as bent as a dogs back leg. Can’t remember the exact tittle but it has Obama mixed up in the corruption in Illinois as a slumlord. And there is also talk that his wife may have been a candidate on the”list”.
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December 14, 2008 10:35am
AG

Expat.

“Pretty simple stuff.”

Sigh.
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December 14, 2008 10:47am
Redbaiter

It is no conspiracy theory. It is only a conspiracy theory because the Obama media machine has chosen this as the best strategy to defend Obama’s apparent inability to comply with one of the Constitutional requirements of being POTUS.

Here are the facts:

A birth can take place overseas and still be legally registered in Hawaii. The original certificate specifies the actual place of birth. Obama has shown the certificate of registration, which is a summary document, but will not release the original document which differs from the first in that it shows where the birth took place.

Obama refuses to provide a birth certificate proving he was born in the US. Every other candidate has done so. Obama knows the document he has provided does not prove his place of birth. All he needs to do is show the second document, same as every other presidential candidate, and for many, who have only become interested because of Obama’ steadfast refusal, the case will be closed.

Why are so many people are prepared to say that where others must comply, Obama should be excused? I’ll tell you. Brain damaged white liberals, mainly ignorant of the importance of the American Constitution, are so bound up over race (as usual) they think that because Obama is black, any attempt to subject him to scrutiny is racism.

Its not racism. Its not a conspiracy theory. Its merely a Constitutional requirement and Obama needs to comply with it. End of story.

Thanks to Obama’s refusal to produce his original birth certificate, interest in this item is growing like wildfire. Like the fake Bush guard documents, and as Obama’s gangster and fraud connections are inevitably revealed, the mainstream media will eventually have egg all over their face for refusing to acknowledge this interest. Obama, the mainstream media’s choice, is a train wreck waiting to happen, and this is only part of it. The tip of the iceberg.

Watch the video- it will save you a lot of misinformation.
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December 14, 2008 10:50am
Redbaiter

Side Show Bob- as I say above, the birth certificate issue is only the tip of the iceberg. Obama is a complete and utter fraud.
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December 14, 2008 10:53am
expat

AG,

When we pull out of Kyoto, will you sigh?
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December 14, 2008 11:04am
oranjemakker

Thanks Red,
Just wathced the vid. Does it bring up anything new though? From the sounds of it (e.g. the references to making a decision before casting your vote) it was a pre-election ad? Again, impartiality is a big issue.

Also, surely if this is for real, then the Supreme Court, which is now decidely conservative, at least until Obama can appoint some judges, would jump on this issue?

I guess that I am simply skeptical, that in this age of free information, such a cover up could actually be sustained. I mean, if it was for real there would be all kind of witnesses saying they had seen him born in Indonesia or whatever.
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December 14, 2008 11:39am
oranjemakker

Red,

Again, are you sure this is not a beat up… factcheck.org says it has seen the actual cert

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

Excerpt:
We beg to differ. FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. We have posted high-resolution photographs of the document as “supporting documents” to this article. Our conclusion: Obama was born in the U.S.A. just as he has always said.
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December 14, 2008 11:44am
Adolf Fiinkensein

Rangemakker, you can obtains US citizenship without being born in the US. I believe to be POTUS you need to actually have been born in the US. Me thinks your people at ‘factchecker.org’ are engaging in yet more disingenuous obfuscation. They conveniently fail to note exactly where he was born. Funny that, don’t you think.

I think there is much sport still to be had at the expense of this skinny little black crook out of Chicago.
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December 14, 2008 12:21pm
jafapete

I’m really disappointed, Redbaiter. I thought that you would be far too intelligent to get sucked into this nutbar conspiracy stuff. It’s not just the State of Hawaii that must be in on the conspiracy, but a number of courts in various states, all of which have declined actions to challenge Obama’s eligibility to stand on this basis. Why? Because it’s loony nonsense. By pursuing this you just bring yourself into ridicule.
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December 14, 2008 12:29pm
Redbaiter

“factcheck.org says it has seen the actual cert.”

The certificate Fact Check is referring to is only the summary version. A fact that has been stated fifty million times and it just amazes me that people are still out there saying this is the original certificate. Let me repeat it once more, for the benefit of those apparently too stupid to grasp such a simple matter in one reading:

FACT-

Fact Check have not seen the certificate on file at the Hawaiian hospital. Fact Check have only ever seen the summary certificate. The summary certificate is the only one ever released by Obama. (the video above covers this very well)

FACT TWO-

Obama is using three teams of lawyers to ensure that original certificate remains hidden from public view.

I don’t understand why the simple matter of Obama refusing to present his original birth certificate remains a matter of such confusion misunderstanding and difficulty. Well I do actually. The left seek to muddle the situation in the hope that this will allow Obama to escape scrutiny. What puzzles me is how easily people fall for what is such a transparent subterfuge.

Obama has not ever released his genuine birth certificate. He must do do to assume the office of POTUS. End of story. What could be more fucken simple for fuck’s sake?

Anyone has got any real argument as to why Obama should not present his birth certificate like every other Presidential candidate let’s hear it. (..and I don’t want the usual bigoted shit from the Left- ie, Obama is a black socialist and therefore he’s free of the obligations other people may have.)
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December 14, 2008 12:36pm
kiwipolemicist

side show bob: I’m not saying that a constitution will help. The state is and always be the enemy:

http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2008/09/15/who-are-the-police-really-serving/
http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2008/09/03/the-red-squad-the-labour-party-and-the-election/
http://mises.org/story/2612
http://mises.org/story/2988
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December 14, 2008 12:36pm
Redbaiter

“By pursuing this you just bring yourself into ridicule.”

The left have never had much more than ridicule Pete. Its where I draw my strength. Now if they had facts and logic, things might be different.
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December 14, 2008 12:39pm
dad4justice

Wouldn’t the whole Nobama birth certificate scandal be resolved if he provided the document?
Jafapet, everybody knows that Court systems are a sick joke, for example our own white elephant supreme court.
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December 14, 2008 1:20pm
billyborker

Redbaiter (4770) Vote: 1 0 Says:

December 14th, 2008 at 10:50 am
(…) they think that because Obama is black, any attempt to subject him to scrutiny is racism.

Who says Obama is “black”? Are you a throw back to the good ole South where a single drop of Negro blood was enough to make a man beyond the pale, a nigger?

Obama is bi-racial. He is also “African-American” in its most genuine sense.

But he is NOT black.
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December 14, 2008 2:00pm
billyborker

dad4justice (4493) Vote: 1 0 Says:

December 14th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
Wouldn’t the whole Nobama birth certificate scandal be resolved if he provided the document?
Jafapet, everybody knows that Court systems are a sick joke, for example our own white elephant supreme court.

How many convictions do you have dad? I’d say our justice system is doing fine.
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December 14, 2008 2:01pm
Barnsley Bill

I have just eaten my first home grown pineapple of the year up here.
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December 14, 2008 2:06pm
kiwipolemicist

billyborker: “African-American is an absurd term. If a white African goes to America he isn’t called an African-American, becuase it’s just a PC way of avoiding the term “black”.

More info here:
http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2008/09/06/i-am-pakeha-and-i-am-oppressed/
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December 14, 2008 2:15pm
Adolf Fiinkensein

Well dear boys, if you really want to be precise, Obama is an Arab-American. That’s why I’m laughing my head off at all the dead heads who think they have their first Negro president. They voted for a Negro and got instead a smooth talking Ayrab.

[DPF: How is Obama an Arab? He does not have Arabian ancestry, does not speak Arabic and is not a citizen of an Arab state]
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December 14, 2008 2:20pm
Barnsley Bill

kiwipolemicist, you are the worst linkwhore since keeping stock. Have you no shame?
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December 14, 2008 2:27pm
Patrick Starr

Billyborker. the phrase ‘beyond the pale’ means a stake or pointed piece of wood. Not ‘pale’ as meaning whitish and light in colour.
Now if that is what you intended you seem to have no qualms in referring to the rest of us as ‘pale’ – but it’s not ok to refer to Obama as a black?
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December 14, 2008 2:54pm
kiwipolemicist

WebWrat: thanks for the shocking numbers. Carbon trading is global Socialism , stealing from the “rich”” and giving to the “poor”. The IMF has admitted as much.

http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2008/09/11/the-emissions-trading-scheme-global-socialism/

Barnsley Bill: if I have a post that will kick off a discussion or contribute info to a discussion I’ll share it. The posts also verify my statements, eg the one in this comment. If someone else has a post that will kick off a discussion or contribute info to a discussion I’ll share it, eg the Mises links above.
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December 14, 2008 4:21pm
billyborker

Patrick, I know exactly what “beyond the pale” means, and chose that phrase carefully, although I also saw the puntential of the phrase in this context.

So, my point remians – Obama is not black, he is bi-racial.
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December 14, 2008 5:03pm
Owen McShane

Webwrat
The real crime is that many biologists (and especially those who specialise in soil) unlike the UN’s atmospheric scientists argue that pastures of perennial grasses farming livestock (including belching ruminants which you may have noticed do not run on fossil fuel) are more effective carbon sinks than forests of any kind.
Futhermore our own soil scientists who have measured NO2 emissions on our farms have found they are half the level negotiated as the “standard” as part of the Kyoto agreement.

Anyone who tells you that forests are better than carbon sinks is displaying their ignorance of our ignorance. The best response is to ask them for the equation which sets out the biological exchanges and the final outcome. YOu migh like to check out Freeman Dyson and his “heresies” for an interesting discussion on how to trap our carbon dioxide emissions through building up topsoil. Just googel on Freeman Dyson and Heresies.
I am sorry to say that the only reason we count our ruminants is because if we did not and acknowledged the scientific reality there would be no problem for our government to “solve” and indeed Mr Putin might well end up sending checks to us rather than the other way round.
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December 14, 2008 5:28pm
Owen McShane

Billyporker,
just about every black in America is bi-racial. Just as most Maori in NZ are bi-racial.
It’s just a matter of the ratio.
I presume you have heard of “octoroons”. It’s not hard to guess the ratio there – or the ratio for half castes if it comes to that.
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December 14, 2008 5:30pm
adamsmith1922

I am shamelessly trolling for visitors, especially those who will publicise the disgrace and tyrannical despot that is Robert Mugabe

http://adamsmith.wordpress.com/2008/12/14/11381/

Sorry to interrupt the flow but I am very angry about this
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December 14, 2008 5:45pm
dave strings

How about that Supreme Court of ours then!

I was looking at it (in development) the other day, and walked around the perimiter. Then I looked at the plans on the site surround hoarding. Seems to me there’s room for about 1000 people to work in there! How many judges sit on the bench there, anyone know?
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December 14, 2008 6:12pm
dad4justice

dave strings; the bent Dame has more judges in the supreme court than horses in her stable. Oh judge, you wasted expensive drop kick parasite!
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December 14, 2008 6:24pm
Lee C

goodgod – it’s John Lennon on Monkeys with typewriters I put it up to remember his death. I captioned the pic ‘What a drag’ for a reason too. ‘It’s a drag isn’t it?’ was what Paul McCartney said to interviewers on the day of Lennon’s death. Apparently it had been an in-joke between Lennon and McCartney when they were youngsters starting out.
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December 14, 2008 7:42pm
getstaffed

I see NZ 2nd worst in world for school bullying. Our kids have obviously been watching Parliament TV for the last 9 years.
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December 14, 2008 10:39pm

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