General Debate 21 September 2009

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Redbaiter

On Kiwipolitico, that repellent left wing echo chamber, there is a post by Pablo making various charges against the groups currently protesting in the US. I found the post nauseating in its hypocrisy and posted the following message that draws attention to a clever video superimposing pictures from demonstrations against George Bush over MSNBC commentary on the protests against Obama. Here’s the text of my message.

————————-

Nobody can do propaganda and hypocrisy like the left, and this thread, with its collection of sycophantic group think comments provides an exceptionally glaring example of that truth.

What you puke inducing hypocrites need to do is check out this video, and if you can dare to watch it all the way through, ask yourself how you can actually write such nauseating claptrap as what you have above and in the lead article, without apparently suffering a skerrick of shame.

It just leaves me utterly gobsmacked that people who pretend to at least some small degree of intelligence can be so unaware of such a staggering degree of hypocrisy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEr65ZX6gLw

————————-

Surprise surprise, it was deleted.

I encourage all readers who want their ideas on the hypocrisy and artifice of the left confirmed to check out the video. It exposes their duplicity in a remarkably effective way.
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September 21, 2009 8:05am
XChequer

Congrats, DPF. Somehow, Kiwiblog has made it to Googles Suspicious Website list!

If one uses Google Chrome (which I do cause it’s so shiny) and a website is on the list, the browser comes up with a red screen notification that the website has cookies that contain malware.

Not the best publicity but thought you might like to know.
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September 21, 2009 8:12am
philu

john key is going to get some environmental ‘shock therapy’..while he is in new york..

(i look forward to his return as a wild-eyed green..wearing a new hemp suit..)

http://whoar.co.nz/2009/climate-change-un-plans-shock-therapy-for-world-leaders-on-environmentwhat-john-key-faces-in-new-york/

“..The heads of state attending the UN summit are to be stripped of their entourages.

Each will be allowed just one aide, generally their country’s environment minister, in the sessions.

Instead of set-piece speeches, leaders will be paired off to chair discussion groups.

Britain will be with Guyana, Tuvalu with the Netherlands, and Mongolia with the European commission.

The leaders will also lunch with environmental activists and chief executives of corporations who have been pressing their governments for action.

At dinner, the leaders of the biggest polluting countries will dine with the leaders of Bangladesh, Kiribati and Costa Rica –

– which are among the primary victims of climate change.

By the end of the day, the rationale goes, the leaders will be imbued with a new sense of purpose.

Leaders of rich countries will have been galvanised to take on the big emissions cuts – 25-40% over the next decade, 80% by 2050 –

– needed to keep temperatures from rising more than two degrees above pre-industrial levels..

.. the temperature set by science to avoid the most calamitous effects of climate change..”

(come on down..!..green-john..!..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 21, 2009 8:27am
kaya

Kevin Rudd is my new hero!!!!!

A group of MP’s met with Rudd to complain about their printing allowances being cut from $100k to $75k (printing allowance????) According to The Australian newspaper:

– The meeting was attended by left-wing women MPs Sharryn Jackson, Maria Vamvakinou and senator Carol Brown, and right-wing senators Michael Forshaw, Don Farrell and David Feeney.

According to a report by journalist Glenn Milne, the Prime Minister “exploded” in particular after Senator Feeney, a former state secretary of the Victorian ALP, spoke up on the issue.

After allegedly saying, “I don’t care what you f…ers think”, Mr Rudd said, singling out Senator Feeney, “You can get f…ed” and “Don’t you f…ing understand?”

Go Kev! More power to your gob!
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September 21, 2009 8:30am
kaya

philu – any chance of you linking straight to the article in question instead of redirecting via your site just so you can register a “hit”?
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September 21, 2009 8:43am
Ryan Sproull

Congrats, DPF. Somehow, Kiwiblog has made it to Googles Suspicious Website list!

If one uses Google Chrome (which I do cause it’s so shiny) and a website is on the list, the browser comes up with a red screen notification that the website has cookies that contain malware.

Not the best publicity but thought you might like to know.

Doesn’t seem to be happening with me. Neither Chrome nor my Avast AVP is warning me about it.
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September 21, 2009 8:48am
philu

“..via your site just so you can register a “hit”?..”

no..no..you would miss all the other delights i have on offer..

eh..?

i mean so far this morning i have an interview with madonna..

a vid-preview of bob dylans’ new/first xmas cd..

and michael caine talking about his ‘hols’..

(and that’s only in the ‘music/ent/culture’ section..!

and it’s only 8.51…am..!..)

whoar..!

eh..?..

http://whoar.co.nz/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 21, 2009 8:53am
jcuknz

It is a shame that blogs delete material but after all they are paying for our privilege of contributing. Pablo seems to me to be one of the more intelligent writers I come across at blogs with considered argument rather than abuse that so many indulge in. One can skip over and ignore the abuse but really it shows a certain lack in the abusers we can best do without. If you want to abuse then do it on your own site rather than spoiling quality blogs … it is not hard to set them up.
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September 21, 2009 8:55am
Chuck Bird

If ACT focuses on the 5 points of difference between ACT and National Muriel highlighted plus crime, ACT could greatly increase its representation in Parliament.

ADDRESS TO THE ACT PARTY NORTHERN REGIONAL CONFERENCE
Dr Muriel Newman
12 September 2009

http://www.nzcpr.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=885
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September 21, 2009 9:29am
Chuck Bird

The fivwe points of difference are:

1. Cancelling tax cuts instead of reducing government spending
2. Pushing ahead with the Emissions Trading Scheme instead of wisely buying time
3. Prevaricating on welfare reform in spite of pre-election promises to prioritise dealing with the problem of the underclass
4. Ignoring voters in the smacking referendum
5. Failing to take a principled stand on race-based issues
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September 21, 2009 9:35am
MikeNZ

Thanks for the link Chuck.
The Indigenous peoples Treaty is a whopper.
sadly the media haven’t got to it or are looking the other way.

I encourage all readers to read

[Rosemary Banks’ full statement can be read here: http://www.nzembassy.com/info.cfm?c=51& … to&p=63315,
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September 21, 2009 9:40am
Colonel Masters

I seem to be unable to give Karma points this morning, clicking on the thumbs does nothing at all. (Not even if I reload the page.)
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September 21, 2009 9:50am
dime

good shit! im stoked National dropped 5 points. take it on board JK. arrogance doesnt work.

Labour also went up 4 points? ACT! up .2%?

what happened to DPF’s smug “National voters will go to ACT! so they aren’t worried” (paraphrased but i’m too lazy to get the quote)

[DPF: There was a 3% gain the previous fortnight which I thought was over-stated so not at all surprised it dipped back this poll. People read far too much into individual poll movements. The long-term trend is what matters]
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September 21, 2009 10:05am
tom hunter

….with considered argument rather than abuse that so many indulge in.

He usually was in that mode when he used to comment on this site, but it’s the same facade that a polemicist like Brown wears. Which is to say, one useful to avoid seeming like a bug-eyed extremist and to help convince those not yet in the argument of how “reasonable”, “moderate”, and “sensible”, the left-wing side is.

It’s also the default facade when they’re winning. When losing, or looking like they’re going to lose? Well that’s when all the bile emerges and you get to see what they really think of people who oppose them. Here’s a couple of examples from the same world-view that Pablo inhabits – in both cases they’re comments from people who constantly ooze nuanced, thoughtful, “moderacy”, and imply further (in a raised eyebrow, tilted nose manner) that this is a natural result of how smart and learned they are:

Paul Buchanan:

It will give ammunition to the rabid US right, though, which could have negative consequences for the Obama administration when dealing with security conservatives in the general electorate at a time when it is already besieged by a disloyal ultra-nationalist-fundamentalist coalition.

Rabid (you know, like a rabid dog, not only unreasonable but with only one solution).
Disloyal (that may be a joke?)
Ultra-nationalist (we know where that can lead in debate, but Godwin is watching)
Fundamentalist (of course-protests marred by religious nuts are far worse than those marred by people who still adore Che & co.)

and then the ever oleaginous Brown:

…..from which ……… herself emerges as mendacious, stupid, lazy and vain. Oh, and greedy.

I left the name out, since he could have been talking about Judith Tizard, but you know that could never be.

All things to keep in mind the next time you hear these people going off about how “nasty” (or perhaps “rabidly nasty”) their right-wing opponents are.
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September 21, 2009 10:06am
philu

um..!..tom..

have you never read redbaiter..?

or the other knuckledragging droolers..?

oh that’s right..!..silly me..!

you are one..!

what was i thinking..?

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 21, 2009 10:17am
Fletch

Test.
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September 21, 2009 10:19am
kaya

philu – for a mental picture of my visit to your site, imagine a flat, smooth stone striking a millpond at speed and at an optimum angle for skimming, say 87 degrees.
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September 21, 2009 10:20am
Fletch

DPF, I see you’ve added a new function to request deletion of posts which is good. However, I can’t seem to edit my posts anymore. When I click ‘Edit’ the vertical Barber Pole goes across but the posts don’t load anymore.
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September 21, 2009 10:22am
philu

kaya..your loss..

(maybe it’s not ‘for you’..?..it does assume an intelligence/inquiring mind..eh..?

enjoy your ongoing steeping in ignorance..

eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 21, 2009 10:26am
nickb

Lol kaya.
All the ellipses hurt my eyes
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September 21, 2009 10:33am
llew

…..from which ……… herself emerges as mendacious, stupid, lazy and vain. Oh, and greedy.

I left the name out, since he could have been talking about Judith Tizard, but you know that could never be.

All things to keep in mind the next time you hear these people going off about how “nasty” (or perhaps “rabidly nasty”) their right-wing opponents are.

He’s commenting on the picture painted by the Vanity Fair article, which is itself based on interviews with the subject’s own son-in-law. Take it up with Levi.
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September 21, 2009 10:40am
tom hunter

Kaya – that’s not quite an accurate analogy.

Millponds are deep, clear, pretty and upon visiting, one leaves feeling uplifted.
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September 21, 2009 10:41am
Dirty Rat

Dime wrote
“good shit! im stoked National dropped 5 points. take it on board JK. arrogance doesnt work.

Labour also went up 4 points? ACT! up .2%?

what happened to DPF’s smug “National voters will go to ACT! so they aren’t worried” (paraphrased but i’m too lazy to get the quote)”

Dime, I don’t think that JK is arrogant, I put the drop due to his weakness on trying to please everyone at everytime under MMP.

Normally a leader would tell Rodney to get fucked and hand his resignation in over Hides threat.

John will be a great Prime Minister, he just has to grow some balls over clowns who make threats
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September 21, 2009 10:58am
kaya

tom hunter – good point, that stone should have traces of excrement on the bottom.
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September 21, 2009 11:14am
Hurf Durf

i mean so far this morning i have an interview with madonna..

a vid-preview of bob dylans’ new/first xmas cd..

and michael caine talking about his ‘hols’..

(and that’s only in the ‘music/ent/culture’ section..!

and it’s only 8.51…am..!..)

How productive. If only you had a proper job.
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September 21, 2009 11:18am
Elijah Lineberry

What does the Prime Minister want to achieve from his expensive sojourn to New York City?

I shudder to think of the cost of such a non event and so I think it important we actually get something for our money; perhaps as Mr Key is appearing on the David Letterman show (to expose his appalling accent to the entire World) he could, upon his return, give us his Top 10.

Top 10 achievements from John Key’s trip to New York…

Needless to say Mr Key would be hard pushed to think of a single achievement, let alone that many, but it would be good if instead of feeding his ego he could return and announce a couple of new free trade agreements, that he has flogged off some apples and lamb to a foreign country, that he encouraged 50,000 people to book holidays here, that he got President Obama to pull out of Afganistan (even Ghengis Khan did not bother with the godforsaken place), a morning on Wall Street resulted in a dozen fund managers rushing to invest in New Zealand… and numerous other things to tick off his list.

Instead he will give his goofy smile, mention the number of photographs he took, how he had dinner at the 21 Club and other inane undertakings during his forgettable (for everyone else, but a ‘trip of a lifetime’ for him) jaunt in America.
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September 21, 2009 11:47am
tom hunter

Ilew

Imagine a piece of white trash getting a Pelosi daughter up the duff, abandoning her, and then going on The View-circuit with claims that can never be disproven, as he makes moolah from his 15 minutes of cheap fame.

You think the utterer of such comments would escape Brown’s gaze with nothing more than ….the style is a little unconvincing at times….? Really?

Come on. If they were attacking one of his icons he’d tear into the article, the journalist who wrote it, and the interviewee themselves. But in this case he’s more than happy to use a piece of gutter-journalism as a backstop to his opinions. That’s the perfectly normal double standards of polemicism, a sort of Lesser Lyrebird of the Matthews/Moyers family.

I just don’t want to hear the claim or the implication that he’s anything other than a polemicist, and underneath those well-fed, avuncular features, a rather nasty one at that.
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September 21, 2009 11:52am
philu

“..tom hunter – good point, that stone should have traces of excrement on the bottom..”

especially if it had come from your hands..eh..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 21, 2009 11:57am
Hurf Durf

Looks like Bummer’s going hard left on defence.

Barack Obama has demanded the Pentagon conduct a radical review of US nuclear weapons doctrine to prepare the way for deep cuts in the country’s arsenal, the Guardian can reveal.

Obama has rejected the Pentagon’s first draft of the “nuclear posture review” as being too timid, and has called for a range of more far-reaching options consistent with his goal of eventually abolishing nuclear weapons altogether, according to European officials.

Those options include:

• Reconfiguring the US nuclear force to allow for an arsenal measured in hundreds rather than thousands of deployed strategic warheads.

• Redrafting nuclear doctrine to narrow the range of conditions under which the US would use nuclear weapons.

• Exploring ways of guaranteeing the future reliability of nuclear weapons without testing or producing a new generation of warheads.

The review is due to be completed by the end of this year, and European officials say the outcome is not yet clear. But one official said: “Obama is now driving this process. He is saying these are the president’s weapons, and he wants to look again at the doctrine and their role.”

The move comes as Obama prepares to take the rare step of chairing a watershed session of the UN security council on Thursday. It is aimed at winning consensus on a new grand bargain: exchanging more radical disarmament by nuclear powers in return for wider global efforts to prevent further proliferation.

And of course, there’ll be Nice Mr Key at the UN helping him emasculate the West in general and US in particular. Has there ever been a situation in human history whereby a pre-eminent power has consciously limited its ability to defend itself?
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September 21, 2009 1:10pm
Nomestradamus

Phool:

When are you launching your “big commercial model news/opinion site” in collaboration with your American contacts? You weren’t having us on, were you? Or rather, you’re not the sucker of a modern Nigerian scam, are you?
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September 21, 2009 1:29pm
nickb

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2886814/SAS-in-Afghanistan-now-Key

Interesting..

I do find it hilarious that Labour and their assorted sycophantic echo chambers like the Standard criticised National for sending the SAS under the request of Obama, when Labour sent them 3 times at the request of George Bush.

Irony..
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September 21, 2009 2:27pm
Paul G. Buchanan

tom hunter:

You are being either willfully disingeneous or are ignorant about the extremist right in the US. There is a disloyal opposition with ultra-nationalist, if not racist beliefs openly involved in the anti-Obama “crusades.” Think the likes of the John Birch Society and Minutemen, to say nothing of their more notorious fellow travelers. They may not be a majority of the opposition to health care, etc., but they help sway the public debate into unreason (see the Obama is the anti-Christ meme discussed in a later post). They would be laughable except that now, again in opposition, the GOP and its media acolytes have given sotto voce to their views in order to skew the debate in their favor. Shouting about “socialism,” “communism” and other such labels simply obscures the discussion about specific policy (such as health care). It certainly does not illuminate it. Glen Beck is a good example of the syndrome.

My comment about the deferral of the BMD shield simply pointed out that this will be politically problematic for Obama because it will play into the extremist hands as well as cause legitimate concern amongst security conservatives who do not share the extremist views.

As for redbaiter. He has been invited to comment over at KP in a rational, civilised manner. He refuses to do so, and we simply do not tolerate personal invective and mere ranting without a defined point. If it is any consolation, we have had to put Roger Nome into the same auto-moderated category because of similar failures to heed the comment guidelines.
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September 21, 2009 2:52pm
Redbaiter

“ranting without a defined point”

My ranting always has a point. It is in this case to expose the rank deceit and hypocrisy of the authors at Kiwipolitico. I do not ever expect to be published by sites such as yours when that is my mission. It would be silly to expect otherwise, just as it is silly for you to pontificate here as if your decisions to delete are not made arbitrarily and prejudicially.

You will never allow me to post there when all I can ever do if I am honest with myself is post comments that reflect the utter horror I feel at the language, the ideas and the world view that you and other authors at that site promote. Like many of the protesters in the US, I consider the ideas you favour to be the root of the evil that has brought so much of the world to the worst place it has been in decades. No language or “abuse” (as you are in your typically perverted manner so ready to label honest criticism) from myself, could ever actually do justice to the vileness you promote.

Your post above is a typical example. No attempt to compete with the ideas of Beck Limbaugh or Hannity and others on the right, just hate couched in oily mealy mouthed derision and sneers. Cowardly propaganda targeting decent people with the deceitful objective of marginalising them.

Here’s one thing you need to know Pablo. We’re on to you. I and the protesters in the streets of the US know what you are and what you represent. We know the poison that lurks behind that oily academic veneer, and we are at last coming after you. Enjoy your current ascendancy, but know well that for Progressivism, the end is nigh.
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September 21, 2009 3:21pm
nickb

Dont get too upset Redbaiter.
Most people here realise KP is just a large pompous wankfest pushing a tired liberal view.
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September 21, 2009 3:25pm
Paul G. Buchanan

Thanks redbaiter.

You proved my point, on several levels.
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September 21, 2009 3:26pm
Redbaiter

“it would be good if instead of feeding his ego he could return and announce a couple of new free trade agreements, that he has flogged off some apples and lamb to a foreign country, that he encouraged 50,000 people to book holidays here, that he got President Obama to pull out of Afganistan (even Ghengis Khan did not bother with the godforsaken place), a morning on Wall Street resulted in a dozen fund managers rushing to invest in New Zealand… and numerous other things to tick off his list.”

Really?? All that? Strange coming from you Elijah, one who professes to be a Libertarian. As a Conservative I would rather Mr. Key just focused on protecting my basic rights and kept the hell out of everything else. I thought that would be your opinion too, given the Libertarian’s frantic obsession with claiming Conservative ideas as their own.
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September 21, 2009 3:37pm
philu

sheesh paul..!

you haven’t even got me n yr blogroll..

chrs..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 21, 2009 3:47pm
Cerium

Mr Laws said he had received a huge volume of correspondence on the H issue.
“And I’d have to say, they’re about nine to one in favour of the status quo.”

http://www.wanganuichronicle.co.nz/have-your-say/news/council-votes-to-fight-on-over-h/3904345/

It’s a bit like claiming that 9 out of 10 Christmas cards he receives are from people that know him.
And it’s hardly surprisng that pro-h people aren’t overly enthusiastic about sending him letters.
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September 21, 2009 3:48pm
Redbaiter

“Thanks redbaiter.”

Perhaps you could regain some of the credibility you so sorely lack by correcting the false charge that “I sent you a video”. I posted a link to a video. Please, if you’re going to ponce about in the blogosphere at least get the terminology right, especially when you’re so busy denying your opponents a right of reply.

That’s it with you collectivists and your web sites- you can’t stop yourself from acting like power drunk little tyrants.

A demonstration of the same tyrannical behaviour you would be guilty of if you ever gained the absolute power that is always your objective. Anyone who might doubt this only has to look at recent history to see how the left have traditionally dealt with dissent, and this is the reason why I detest you and your kind as strongly as I do.

Every time you delete one of my posts I am reminded of your blood soaked past.
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September 21, 2009 3:49pm
Johnboy

You mean he gets 10 xmas cards!!!!
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September 21, 2009 3:49pm
RRM

No jokes about the holocaust, please.

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-stories/6083240/lincoln-uni-apologises-for-students-nazi-party/

The humour police are everywhere.
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September 21, 2009 4:30pm
philu

“..Every time you delete one of my posts I am reminded of your blood soaked past..”

that’s one of reds’ better lines..eh..?..(would fit on a t-shirt..)

d’yareckon a lot of reds’ imagination..is ‘ blood soaked’..

i do..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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September 21, 2009 4:35pm
RightNow

good news phlu, technorati has you ranked at 600,143 in the world! You’re moving up. How’s the deal with the americans coming along? Have they made you super-rich yet?
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September 21, 2009 4:45pm
Nomestradamus

RightNow:

Does that mean Phool is – after years of trying – finally out of the bottom 1% of Technorati-ranked blogs?
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September 21, 2009 5:14pm
Redbaiter

“Does that mean Phool is – after years of trying – finally out of the bottom 1% of Technorati-ranked blogs?”

..and he wouldn’t even have achieved that if not for his constant shameless linking on Kiwiblog.
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September 21, 2009 5:27pm
tom hunter

Paul

Once I’ve finished making dinner for the kids I’ll see if I have the time to engage with your points later tonight, and we will see who is being willfully disingeneous on this point.

All I have time to say for now is that you seem to be basing your point in an extremely thin (and dated) reed in pointing to the John Birchers.

That is, if you are so concerned about lunatics obsessed by the purity and essence of our natural bodily fluids I suggest you look elsewhere.
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September 21, 2009 5:28pm
malcolm

Sorry, bit late I know, but I couldn’t resist this article in the Times:

“Muslims mass-producing children to take over Africa, says Archbishop”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article6841734.ece

When I saw the title I thought it might be that nice old Archbishop of Canterbury, but sadly no. Anyway his argument was going swimmingly until he said:

“They come to Africans and say, ‘Christianity is asking you to marry only one wife. We will give you four!’ ” Archbishop Okoh described this as “evangelism by mass-production”.

He said: “That is the type of evangelism they are doing: mass-production, so if you have four wives, four children, sixteen children, very soon you will be a village.”

Hang on, there’s something wrong here. Let me get my calculator..
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September 21, 2009 8:32pm
Banana Llama

Hurf Durf 1:10

Washington Naval conferences comes to mind.
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September 21, 2009 8:54pm
virtualmark

Hurf Durf … the US and Russia are in the late stages of negotiating the replacement to the START I treaty. This new treaty will greatly reduce the size of the US nuclear arsenal, probably down to somewhere around 1,500 nuclear warheads, but potentially down as low as 1,000 warheads.

It’s well known that the US and Russia are both struggling with the cost of maintaining their stocks of nuclear warheads and their delivery systems. Both would be happy to make significant reductions to their arsenals. Even 1,000 warheads is more than enough to maintain an effective deterrent.

It’s also well known that the US, like the other nuclear powers, is struggling with ensuring the safety and reliability of its nuclear warheads because of the test bans. Even the most modern of the US’s warheads was designed in the 1970s, and none have been test fired since 1992. All the recent “testing” has been done via computer simulations, and there’s a bit of uncertainty about the current & future reliability of the arsenal.

So, stripping away the Guardian’s standard leftie-isms … Obama has asked the Pentagon to refine their plans of how they’d rejig and refocus the nuclear arsenal in the event of the START I replacement treaty landing at any of a range of outcomes between “hundreds” of nuclear warheads and 1,500 warheads.

Sure, people might categorise that as a “radical review”. But the reality is that if you’re going to finalise a new treaty like START then you need to understand what your choices are and how you’d optimise your nuclear deterrent at each of the possible levels the treaty might end up.

No conspiracy. No Bummer being a commie selling out the good ole US of A. Just a Commander in Chief asking for information so that he can make informed decisions.
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September 21, 2009 8:56pm
reid

…just hate couched in oily mealy mouthed derision and sneers…

You’re so funny RB. Don’t ever stop being you.
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September 21, 2009 9:45pm
tom hunter

Virtualmark. Agree. I also think the ever increasing sophistication of conventional, precision weapons is a driver from within the military itself. From the point of view of achieving almost any forseeable military objectives, nuclear weapons are simply useless nowadays.

However, from the point of view of diplomacy and political calculation, they’re not. So one problem I have with Obama on this is that his primary driver is a 1980’s leftie view that if only the weapons could be eliminated from the US arsenal then the problems of North Korean and Iranian nuclear weapons would also go away. The classic left-wing view that such things are merely reactions to the West, and the US in particular, with the Iranians and North Koreans in particular as Pavlovian animals.

In any case the “deep cuts” have already occurred over the last 20 years – courtesy of the West’s victory in the Cold War – whereby inventories in the tens of thousands have already been reduced to the low thousands. That process will continue, albeit at a reduced rate and I think Obama will simply encounter the old law of diminishing returns, while making boastful claims about international agreements.

The bigger problem I have is that in order to gain this grand bargain, Obama is going to sell down the river, in classic realpolitik fashion, the hopes and dreams of ordinary people, from Eastern Europeans to Iranians.
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September 22, 2009 12:29am
Hurf Durf

In his 1981 Columbia University thesis (in as succint a way possible), Obama thought that the Reagan Administration reinvestment in nuclear and SDI technology was wrong and that disarmament was the route to go down for world peace and harmony.

Guess who won that argument.

This will, I believe, go beyond anything the START programme envisioned as part of the gradual process and has achieved. The only thing the Russians will do with this is use it as an opportunity to get rid of the old, obsolete ICBMs without agitating the hawks in the government.
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September 22, 2009 12:38am
tom hunter

Hurf Durf – I think Obama would like to push it beyond START, given his historic approach to the question – but I also think such an effort will run aground when future talks stall with even the likes of France and Russia as it becomes obvious that they will never get rid of all their nuclear weapons.

I’m not too worried by that, more that the pursuit of this Cold War Western left-wing fantasy will result in ever more brutal compromises being made by the US in dealing with the likes of Iran and Russia. I think that process has been well underway since Obama’s election.
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September 22, 2009 12:44am
Hurf Durf

I also think such an effort will run aground when future talks stall with even the likes of France and Russia as it becomes obvious that they will never get rid of all their nuclear weapons.

Fingers crossed, Tom, though I wish I shared your optimism.
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September 22, 2009 12:48am
tom hunter

By the way Hurf Durf – I left a reply to you the other night but you may have missed it. In a debate thread some days ago you gave me an accolade for something that was actually from CraigM.
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September 22, 2009 12:59am
Hurf Durf

Hmm, so I did. Dunno how that came about. Sorry Craig, if you ever get round to reading this.

I should probably clarify that in terms of disarmament, I don’t think Obama the top secret red has made it a priority to obliterate the US nuclear arsenal while swigging down bottles of vodka, but that he is approaching the matter with a naivety that doesn’t underline just how sensitive Russia still is to its loss of prestige and that apart from UK Labour (which is going pretty soon anyway), no other country seems intent on downsizing its arsenals to a comparable degree. He’s made it his key personally-initiated foreign policy plank and he seems intent on using it to make the usual suspects follow suit, as though every country on the policy has the goal of eternal peace and brotherhood. There’s no cynicism, or some kind of realistic thinking. “The President’s weapons?” What? It doesn’t help that at the time of writing there’s conflicting messagess from the Russian military as to whether or not Russian missiles are going to Kaliningrad.
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September 22, 2009 1:08am
kaya

If the Greens had been involved in the Making of Star Wars……lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eknuqWQ4-Mw
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September 22, 2009 2:01am
jackp

If National dropped 4 points on the polls, good. After their incredulous ETS, I hope they drop another 20. Hopefully Act will pick up those points. John Key is loosing it.
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September 22, 2009 9:50pm

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