General Debate 11 June 2010

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krazykiwi

the ones acting in self-defence
Nope. The IDF folks were attacked before even setting foot on the deck of the ship.

acting against international law
Nope. They were acting in accordance with international law. The blockade is legal, and virtualmark asked you to prove otherwise. You’ve dodged this. Again.

While I strongly uphold equal rights for women, I do not regard that as excluding the rights of other peoples to their own beliefs
So the stoning of this woman, as authorized by a belief system, is quite ok for you?
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June 11, 2010 6:05pm
philu

“..# Lucia Maria (118) Says:
June 11th, 2010 at 5:41 pm

Phil U,

There were a lot of heretic writings around even in the 1st century.

Doesn’t mean Jesus wrote it.

Don’t believe everything you read (or see in the movies).
..”

wow..where to start..?

if you followw the link..you get all the evidence you need that jesus taught that to the members of his essene sect..

..and was written at that time…

..these teachings were perverted…by the later writes of the bible…

..(maybe you are the one who has absorbed just a little too much charlton heston..eh..?..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 6:09pm
Lucia Maria

Phil,

I used to read all that shit years ago. It leads nowhere. It’s a dead-end. Eventually your truth-o-meter will kick in and see it for what it is, IF you are at all interested in truth.
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June 11, 2010 6:12pm
philu

btw..which version of the bible…do you think is ‘the true one’..?

and just new testament…?

or literal old testament too..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 6:14pm
philu

i am a humanist/animalist…

i just find it ‘interesting’ that confirmation of a core belief of mine..ie..you don’t hurt/kill/eat animals…

is actually supported by documentation i consider more reliable than most of the bible..

and it pisses me off when the christian fascists use their ‘holy book’..

..to preach/support their perverted beliefs./hatreds..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 6:19pm
krazykiwi

phil says:

felt like a bit of a break from the sole-parent/benificiary-bashing

So when your son was younger (back circa 2005) you took time away from home working on a degree at Akl uni, but now your son is older having a job would cause you to be neglecting your parenting. How does that work?
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June 11, 2010 6:25pm
philu

(this one is interesting/challenges a few commonly-held ‘beliefs’..

http://whoar.co.nz/2010/can-a-child-be-too-young-to-learn-to-read/

“…Forget Sweden or Finland:…

… how many English parents know that in Wales young children are following a play-based curriculum up until the age of 7?

And there haven’t been any riots … yet.

“At the beginning there was a bit of distrust from the parents,” says Sarah Owen, a mother of three (and former teacher) from Welshpool.

“We all knew that play was important … but a lot of us were wondering how our children would learn to read if they were playing all the time.

After all, it’s drilled into us that the sooner you learn to read, the better.”

Owen’s two eldest, Meg, 10 and Tom, 8, are too old to have experienced the new foundation phase in Wales.

Five-year-old Carys, however, is taking full advantage.

“I think it’s the right way to go,” says Sarah.

“She is definitely stimulated, but also seems to have this more joyous feeling about school.

They do a lot of outdoor play, but she is reading too — they introduce this at the child’s own level.

As long as a child has access to books and enjoys them … reading will come naturally.”

Owen’s views are relevant as they come in the middle of a heated debate about the value of early schooling …

… and particularly when children should be taught to read.

New research published this week was interpreted in startlingly different ways.

Some claimed it showed that early teaching had no impact on children at the age of 5; … others said quite the opposite.

However, David Richardson, co-author of the new study, says that it does show that children who attend pre-school before the age of 3 do better —

– both educationally and socially — at age 5.

“Our evidence suggests that what happens in the early years does have an impact,” he said.

So when should children learn to read?

Can they be damaged (or put off reading) by starting too early … or fall behind if they start too late?

It’s an important question with no simple answer — even though educationists have very strong opinions.

“Up to the age of 6 or 7, the true foundations of literacy are caught, not taught.

We have to invest in training practitioners in how to help children catch them,” says Sue Palmer, the former primary headteacher and liter-acy expert and author of Toxic Childhood.

Palmer thinks there’s “no rush” to teach children to read … and is particu-larly unhappy about the targets set in the English early years curriculum.

She points to Finland … with its very high literacy rates.

Finnish children — like the Welsh — don’t start formal reading until 7…”

(i agree with all that…it ties in with my disdain for loading kids up with homework…

..let them be kids….

let them play…)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 6:37pm
Kris K

virtualmark 4:40 pm,

Are Europe and the UK really becoming increasingly Islamified? Certainly they have large (non-indigeneous) Muslim communities. And they’ve had problems with Muslim hotheads. Some of those hotheads have fallen under the thrall of Islamists and have committed horrific offences.

But you’re probably talking less than 10,000 extreme Islamists across the whole of Europe. Over time – and I’m talking a generation or two here – who is more likely to become assimilated … the more extreme muslims become Europeanised? Or the Europeans become Islamified?

I hope you were crossing all your fingers and toes while you wrote that second paragraph.
Islam doesn’t know the meaning of the word ‘compromise’. It will NEVER be assimilated. There is NO ‘politically correct’ version of Islam. There is NO luke warm liberal theology version of Islam. Islam will continue to butt heads with the non-Islamic world until either a) Its opponent’s skull is smashed and he lies dead and subdued on the ground, or b) Islam is destroyed. There is NO option c) (SHORT OF DIVINE INTERVENTION).

How much evidence do you self-deluded fools need before you wake up to the truth of Islam!?

Did you actually read the article Mike linked to in his 9:35 am comment? The one I went through and highlighted with my own comments in my 3:43 pm comment? If this stuff doesn’t get you thinking about those who follow Islam, and Islam itself, then I doubt much will make any impact at all.

Here’s the link again:
http://times.cluster.newsint.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7145665.ece

Once again – only a fool ignores the handwriting on the wall:
“MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.”
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June 11, 2010 6:41pm
Yvette

On ONE NEWS a sheaf of papers on New Zealand First expenses were waved around as it was said that Winston denied having two spa sessions charged to him, but, at the same time, they had been paid back.

But, at the risk of displaying my ignorance [or I would suggest it is just the confusion of time passing as Winston would wish it], did he ever pay back the $ 158,000 of taxpayer money his party spent on election promotion of itself?
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June 11, 2010 6:45pm
krazykiwi

… how many English parents know that in Wales young children are following a play-based curriculum up until the age of 7? And there haven’t been any riots … yet.

Kids have widely varying ages at which they’re ready for academic learning. Many kids at 5 are nowhere near ready, while others are ready earlier. My view is that we force most kids into ‘formal learning’ too early. That said, a little boast: our daughter solved the Rubic cube (ok, with written instructions) unprompted at age 4! I was gobsmacked.
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June 11, 2010 6:47pm
mattyroo

The Ozzies have no qualms about naming people on charges for kiddy fiddling / kiddy porn – see: http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/abc-host-faces-child-pornography-charge-20100611-y2p2.html

So why the hell does “Bill” still have name suppression?
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June 11, 2010 6:59pm
Yvette

‘Plu – i am a humanist/animalist…

i just find it ‘interesting’ that confirmation of a core belief of mine..ie..you don’t hurt/kill/eat animals…

is actually supported by documentation i consider more reliable than most of the bible..

and it pisses me off when the christian fascists use their ‘holy book’..

..to preach/support their perverted beliefs./hatreds..

Re: your 1st century ‘Jesus quote’

Robert Lucius – Sadly, Szekely, the founder of the International Biogenic Society, fabricated this whole pseudo-Essene text and thus it has nothing to do with the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran in 1946 or with the Roman Catholic Church. That being said, I think we can find quite enough evidence in the Bible itself that speaks to God’s desire that we neither eat meat nor sacrifice animals.
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June 11, 2010 7:00pm
Viking2

# Fletch (1118) Says:
June 11th, 2010 at 3:43 pm

I bet if the conservation minister saw a spider crawling across the carpet, he/she would kill it.

Ah doubt it. Nick smith minister of most fuck ups and Conservation can’t kill a dead ETS let alone a living fighting man eating humongous Katipo.

Too much of a girl for fighting stuff like that.
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June 11, 2010 7:07pm
philu

“..That being said, I think we can find quite enough evidence in the Bible itself that speaks to God’s desire that we neither eat meat nor sacrifice animals…”

dig it out yvette…

..dig it out..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 7:15pm
Lucia Maria

Phil,

The whole Bible (Old and New Testaments) is true.

i just find it ‘interesting’ that confirmation of a core belief of mine..ie..you don’t hurt/kill/eat animals…

is actually supported by documentation i consider more reliable than most of the bible..

Your core belief is linked to “how it ought to be”, rather than “how it is now”, and is therefore true in a sense. Original sin distorted humanity and how the earth and it’s creatures relate to us. We went from not needing to eat animals to live, to needing to do so. The original humans (and animals) were also not subject to disease and death like we are now.

We won’t need to eat animals when we are in Heaven, either.

However, in the meantime, it’s necessary.
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June 11, 2010 7:19pm
Manolo

I’m not into Middle Eastern mythology, so tell me: what is heaven?
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June 11, 2010 7:26pm
philu

“..We went from not needing to eat animals to live, to needing to do so. .”

“..However, in the meantime, it’s necessary…”

what absolute rubbish…

cd you plse substantiate that preposterous claim..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 7:27pm
Lucia Maria

Manolo,

Heaven is something that is unimaginable. This place is almost like Hell, in comparison.
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June 11, 2010 7:29pm
Lucia Maria

Phil,

Claim one or claim two?
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June 11, 2010 7:30pm
Manolo

Lucia Maria, but I like this place, so why would I trade it for something unknown just because an old book written centuries ago says so? By the way, who wrote it?

Nah, I rather enjoy life now than wait for your mythical heaven.
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June 11, 2010 7:35pm
Pete George

Heaven

O.E. heofon “home of God,” earlier “sky,” possibly from P.Gmc. *khemina- (cf. Low Ger. heben, O.N. himinn, Goth. himins, O.Fris. himul, Du. hemel, Ger. Himmel “heaven, sky”), from PIE base *kem-/*kam- “to cover” (cf. chemise ). Plural use in sense of “sky” is probably from Ptolemaic theory of space composed of many spheres, but it was also formerly used in the same sense as the singular in Biblical language, as a translation of Heb. pl. shamayim . Heavenly “beautiful, divine” is from 1460, often (though not originally) with reference to the celestial “music of the spheres;” weakened sense of “excellent, enjoyable” is first recorded 1874.

(1.) Definitions. The phrase “heaven and earth” is used to indicate the whole universe (Gen. 1:1; Jer. 23:24; Acts 17:24). According to the Jewish notion there were three heavens, (a) The firmament, as “fowls of the heaven” (Gen. 2:19; 7:3, 23; Ps. 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lam. 4:19), etc. (b) The starry heavens (Deut. 17:3; Jer. 8:2; Matt. 24:29). (c) “The heaven of heavens,” or “the third heaven” (Deut. 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Ps. 115:16; 148:4; 2 Cor. 12:2). (2.) Meaning of words in the original, (a) The usual Hebrew word for “heavens” is _shamayim_, a plural form meaning “heights,” “elevations” (Gen. 1:1; 2:1). (b) The Hebrew word _marom_ is also used (Ps. 68:18; 93:4; 102:19, etc.) as equivalent to _shamayim_, “high places,” “heights.” (c) Heb. galgal, literally a “wheel,” is rendered “heaven” in Ps. 77:18 (R.V., “whirlwind”). (d) Heb. shahak, rendered “sky” (Deut. 33:26; Job 37:18; Ps. 18:11), plural “clouds” (Job 35:5; 36:28; Ps. 68:34, marg. “heavens”), means probably the firmament. (e) Heb. rakia is closely connected with (d), and is rendered “firmamentum” in the Vulgate, whence our “firmament” (Gen. 1:6; Deut. 33:26, etc.), regarded as a solid expanse. (3.) Metaphorical meaning of term. Isa. 14:13, 14; “doors of heaven” (Ps. 78:23); heaven “shut” (1 Kings 8:35); “opened” (Ezek. 1:1). (See 1 Chr. 21:16.) (4.) Spiritual meaning. The place of the everlasting blessedness of the righteous; the abode of departed spirits. (a) Christ calls it his “Father’s house” (John 14:2). (b) It is called “paradise” (Luke 23:43; 2 Cor. 12:4; Rev. 2:7). (c) “The heavenly Jerusalem” (Gal. 4: 26; Heb. 12:22; Rev. 3:12). (d) The “kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 25:1; James 2:5). (e) The “eternal kingdom” (2 Pet. 1:11). (f) The “eternal inheritance” (1 Pet. 1:4; Heb. 9:15). (g) The “better country” (Heb. 11:14, 16). (h) The blessed are said to “sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,” and to be “in Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 16:22; Matt. 8:11); to “reign with Christ” (2 Tim. 2:12); and to enjoy “rest” (Heb. 4:10, 11). In heaven the blessedness of the righteous consists in the possession of “life everlasting,” “an eternal weight of glory” (2 Cor. 4:17), an exemption from all sufferings for ever, a deliverance from all evils (2 Cor. 5:1, 2) and from the society of the wicked (2 Tim. 4:18), bliss without termination, the “fulness of joy” for ever (Luke 20:36; 2 Cor. 4:16, 18; 1 Pet. 1:4; 5:10; 1 John 3:2). The believer’s heaven is not only a state of everlasting blessedness, but also a “place”, a place “prepared” for them (John 14:2).
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June 11, 2010 7:38pm
Lucia Maria

Manolo,

Well, this place is not all bad. There are many good things about it. However, life here is short and ends very quickly. A great number of people spend the last years of their lives in old bodies that are sick and immobile.

Why not consider the greater picture, living forever in eternal happiness?

It’s not just because an old book says so. What if it were true and you are throwing away eternity?
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June 11, 2010 7:41pm
philu

both of them..

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 7:47pm
Pete George

That’s a weak old ploy Lucia. What if it wasn’t true? What if eternity doesn’t exist? Of course eternal happiness might appeal but it is unattainable. You can only experience happiness if you also experience sadness to compare it with, otherwise it is nothingness.

There’s a lot of what ifs that have evolved over the course of Christianity and other religions. Even different flavours of Christian church have different claims of what heaven is.

“Christians in the first century, such as Paul of Tarsus, believed that the Kingdom of God was coming to earth within their lifetimes. They looked forward to a divine future on earth. After the Kingdom of God did not arrive, Christians gradually refined their hopes, so that they came to look forward to a reward in heaven after death rather than to a reward in an imminent, divine kingdom on earth.”

It has largely become a hollow carrot to try and lure followers without any rational explanation.
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June 11, 2010 7:49pm
Manolo

Lucia Maria, what if I tell you to deposit $100 on my bank account every week and I’ll guarantee you “eternal happiness”?
Sorry, but I do not find your old book trustworthy. I rather enjoy life here and now, thank you.
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June 11, 2010 7:50pm
Pete George

Ah, but Lucia, for 10% of your income per week I’ll guarantee you eternal happiness plus God’s company.

And that is how heaven has evolved. A bidding war. What does Islam offer? They seem to have good numbers.
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June 11, 2010 7:54pm
dad4justice

Someone remind me what book was the number one best seller again last year?
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June 11, 2010 7:56pm
philu

and how many people did ronsald reagan sentence to death/kill..?

with his refusals to take a scientific/rational approach to the aids virus…

under his stewardship..it moved from epidemic….

..to pandemic…

murdering old superstition-riddled bastard…

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 8:03pm
dad4justice

petey georgie gal – was the Koran the number one best selling book last year? Crawl back into your hole.
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June 11, 2010 8:07pm
big bruv

“Someone remind me what book was the number one best seller again last year?”

Works of fiction always sell well D4J.
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June 11, 2010 8:07pm
Steve

Best seller because the hypocritical bastards give them away as birthday/xmas gifts. You don’t think people buy the best seller for themselves do you D4J? they already know so spread the bullshit propaganda
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June 11, 2010 8:08pm
dad4justice

“Works of fiction always sell well D4J.”

Who pulled your dog chain oh fat one? Email me BIG blouse and I’ll send you a weight watchers guide to good health.
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June 11, 2010 8:09pm
Steve

Is the ‘Koran’ the one that comes with free set of …..
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June 11, 2010 8:10pm
Steve

Phool,

Epidemic to Pandemic is a bit like Welfare huh? Once addicted, always addicted.
Get a fucking job you tax bleeder
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June 11, 2010 8:13pm
Steve

Let the games begin,
big bruv and d4j
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June 11, 2010 8:15pm
big bruv

” with free set of …..”

Virgins?
Bombs?
How to fly manuals?
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June 11, 2010 8:16pm
nickb

Does anyone know if there is any truth to the rumours that philu and D4J are carring the NZ flag at tonights World Cup opening ceremony?
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June 11, 2010 8:18pm
billyborker

big bruv wioll always win as d4j disqualifies himeself by foaming at the mouth, fantasing over kirsty and wondering if I really am paul or not.
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June 11, 2010 8:21pm
krazykiwi

For those who are interested but not sure how to approach the Bible, I’d suggest getting a copy of The Message. It’s a 21st century translation that leaves theologians dismayed (that alone is a good reason to read it!).

And even if the truth of the message of salvation thru Jesus Christ doesn’t hit your hot buttons (yet!), look at the story of His life, the way He lived and related to people. Then ask yourself if the world would be a better or worse place if more people lived that way.

The essence of Christianity is becoming more like Christ. Quite a good objective I should have thought.
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June 11, 2010 8:22pm
dad4justice

A trifecta of hate(blouse, nicky and Paul P). Who said bloggers have spines?
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June 11, 2010 8:23pm
Pete George

“Then ask yourself if the world would be a better or worse place if more people lived that way. ”

You should ask that of a few of the regular bible bashers krazy. I’ve often suggested that Christ’s example is quite different to how many Christians present themselves now.

“The essence of Christianity is becoming more like Christ. Quite a good objective I should have thought.”

In a modernised way it would be better than what many try to do.

The role played by the Qur’an in opposing or in encouraging attacks on civilians is disputed.

The Princeton University Middle Eastern scholar Bernard Lewis, states that Islamic jurisprudence does not allow terrorism.
“At no time did the (Muslim) jurist approve of terrorism. Nor indeed is there any evidence of the use of terrorism (in Islamic tradition). Muslims are commanded not to kill women, children, or the aged, not to torture or otherwise ill-treat prisoners, to give fair warning of the opening of hostilities, and to honor agreements.”

“Similarly, the laws of Jihad categorically preclude wanton and indiscriminate slaughter. The warriors in the holy war are urged not to harm non-combatants, women and children, “unless they attack you first.” A point on which they insist is the need for a clear declaration of war before beginning hostilities, and for proper warning before resuming hostilities after a truce. What the classical jurists of Islam never remotely considered is the kind of unprovoked, unannounced mass slaughter of uninvolved civil populations that we saw in New York two weeks ago. For this there is no precedent and no authority in Islam.”

Michael Sells and Jane I. Smith (a Professor of Islamic Studies) write that barring some extremists like Al-Qaeda, most Muslims do not interpret Qura’nic verses as promoting warfare; and that the phenomenon of radical interpretation of scripture by extremist groups is not unique to Islam.”. According to Sells, “[Most Muslims] no more expect to apply [the verses at issue] to their contemporary non-Muslim friends and neighbors than most Christians and Jews consider themselves commanded by God, like the Biblical Joshua, to exterminate the infidels.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism
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June 11, 2010 8:31pm
philu

did he hate as much as you do..?..krazykiwi..?

did he preach hate..like you do…?

if not…

why do you..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 8:35pm
Hurf Durf

Luc has a history of insanity. He once compared the Taliban to the French resistance. You know, the brave heroes who hanged a seven year old boy for spying. Oh wait.
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June 11, 2010 8:36pm
Hurf Durf

ie..you don’t hurt/kill/eat animals…

Do you extend the same courtesy to chemists?
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June 11, 2010 8:44pm
nickb

swoosh haha
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June 11, 2010 8:49pm
krazykiwi

When did I ‘preech hate’ phil?

While you’re pondering that question .. remember this:

why don’t you stick yr head up yr arse and whistle fucken dixie..
you vile pece of racist/bigoted-shit..
kk..’feel free to’ fuck off..get fucked..stick it up yr arse..!

Have I ever spoken to you (or anyone else) like that?
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June 11, 2010 8:50pm
Johnboy

I hurt/kill/eat animals. Never tried eating a chemist though. Would taste a bit chemical I guess. Like the stuff they call bacon or smoked fish these days.
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June 11, 2010 8:51pm
Lucia Maria

Phil,

I can’t prove claim no 1.

In regards to claim no 2, I used to be vegetarian. I found after my first child, after being vegetarian for 14 or so years, that I needed to start eating red meat again. It took me a couple of years from realising I needed to, to actually being able to, as the aversion to it was that strong. As you are not a woman, and therefore not been subject to the effects of pregnancy and breastfeeding and monthly bleeding, this would be something you would not experience in the same way.

My first child is also very dairy allergic (also has egg and peanut allergies, and gradually worsening fish allergies) – he needs meat to vary his diet. Incidentally, he was the child I had while I was vegetarian all those years.

So, not proof as such, just personal experience.

Also, think of the old hunter/gatherer societies – could they have survived without hunting?
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June 11, 2010 9:34pm
philu

the hatreds you preach are far worse than my minor curses…

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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June 11, 2010 10:12pm
reid

the hatreds you preach are far worse than my minor curses…

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. I feel that way sometimes as well, phil.
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June 11, 2010 10:13pm
krazykiwi

the hatreds you preach are far worse than my minor curses…

Curious. Feel free to point out where I’ve preached hatred. Oh, and looks to me like quite a bit of hatred from you phil.. not really ‘minor curses’ are they?

Hey you never did confirm if you were lying about the at internet access thing. Do you have internet access from your home? Just a yes or no would do.
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June 11, 2010 10:23pm
Lucia Maria

KrazyKiwi,

A quick Google for The Message led me to this article : The Message. If the article is correct in it’s assessment of The Message, then it’s a very bad book to read if you are trying to understand the Bible. The worst type of lies are those mixed with truth, and it looks like that is what The Message does. It seems to make out that Jesus is some type of Master (ie new age master with different connotations) rather than being God, and that in itself is enough reason not to read it. There are more than enough good books out there on the Bible, such as A Father Who Keeps His Promises.

The essence of Christianity is becoming more like Christ. Quite a good objective I should have thought.

Well, yes. A huge part of that is taking up your cross, ie accepting your sufferings and sacrificing yourself for others. That’s the most difficult part that most people shy away from.
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June 11, 2010 10:32pm
billyborker

The absolute stupidity of the religious is fully revealed in this passage.

Lucia Maria (124) Says:

June 11th, 2010 at 7:29 pm
Manolo,

Heaven is something that is unimaginable. This place is almost like Hell, in comparison

So, according to lucia, heaven cannot be imagined,and yet soemhow she “knows” it is better than this existence.

Is anything, or anyone, capable of a greater stupidity thah this? Kris K, where are you? D4J, come in, your god has feet of clay.
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June 11, 2010 11:18pm
reid

…Is anything, or anyone, capable of a greater stupidity thah[sic] this?

Only someone who’s never opened themselves up to that possibility billy.

Honestly I don’t get it.

Millions possibly billions throughout history practiced and continue to, the art and science of religious belief.

It boggles my mind that some people dismiss such a significant strand running throughout recorded history, so lightly.
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June 11, 2010 11:31pm
krazykiwi

your god has feet of clay.

Disagree. Rather think that you have a heart of stone.
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June 12, 2010 9:44am
krazykiwi

@Lucia Maria – from your link:

This article will barely scratch the surface of the mystic New Age religion filling The Message. And this article only examines the New Age mysticism in The Message, we do not examine the treason against the Deity of Jesus Christ, salvation and scores of other fundamental doctrines. Note: We’ll refer to the King James Bible as KJB, the New Age Movement as NAM, and The Message Bible as The Mess.

So this is the website author’s view.. which differs from that of Billy Graham, Chuck Swindoll, Christianity Today, Dan Quayle, Bill Hybels, Gordon Fee, J.I. Packer, Jack Hayford, Jerry Jenkins, Jerry Savelle, John Maxwell, Max Lucado, Richard Foster, Rick Warren, Rod Parsley, Tony Campolo and Warren Wiersbe, and many others who endorse the translation?!?

Who to believe? I’m happy to agree with the Christians of standing on this.
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June 12, 2010 7:03pm

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