General Debate 3 November 2010

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kaya

Good moaning people.
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November 3, 2010 8:04am
kaya

On a lighter note, the pain for our export sector is going to increase if the Fed go ahead as planned and cranks up the printing presses.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/economy/news/article.cfm?c_id=34&objectid=10684911

Possibly another 500 billion dollars, apart from devaluing the US dollar and pushing up the gold price, this can only hurt our export sector.
The Aussies RB increased their interest rates to hold their dollar down. Are we going to be the only country that sits back and lets our currency get hammered by artificial forces? Free market my arse.
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November 3, 2010 8:12am
stephen

Good moaning people.

😀
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November 3, 2010 8:23am
peterwn

See:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10684959
“Govt curbs driver loans” (for legal fees to seek limited licence when disqualified)

I know that Judith Collins feels strongly on this one but she is out of order on three points:
1. She should not be using her role of acting Social Welfare Minister to direct Social Welfare on this in the face of Paula Bennet’s comments that she had no objection to the advances.
2. While she sympathises with the long suffering taxpayer on this sort of thing, it would seem to me thatthe taxpayer is better off by meeting the foregone interest on the advances (and very small risk of non recovery), than paying unemployment benefit to a person while they remain disqualified (agreed the person should try and seek non-driving work).
3. If she considers that disqualified drivers should not have access to limited licences, she should propose that legislation be amnded accordingly rather than attacking it indirectly in this manner.

IMO it is this sort of attitude that potentially loses elections. While her stance may appeal to the party ‘faithful’, it is the swinging voters the party needs to attract and her stance could be seen as rather too hard line. On the other hand removing the ability to obtain limited licences would be an easier one to sell politically.
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November 3, 2010 8:25am
Murray

Johnboy really plans to outdo Helen doesn’t he. She only managed to kill our stike wing, hes trying to kill the entire armed forces.
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November 3, 2010 8:30am
MT_Tinman

Peterwn, I couldn’t agree less.

Using taxpayer money to circumvent the penalties laid down in law (as a measure to reduce drunk driving in this case) is nothing less than obscene.
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November 3, 2010 8:37am
MikeNZ

I agree with MtTinman
a penalty is a penalty and should be left as such.
disqualified ia a consequence and people being able to avoid it is obscene
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November 3, 2010 8:39am
MikeNZ

http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/durban-iii-set-new-york-city-september-2011_514526.html

I guess the Un has plans for the 10th anniversary of 911.

I wonder what the victims families will think of it?
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November 3, 2010 8:40am
Jimbob

Kaya I would wait until after the Fed meeting to see what happens before making predictions. This has been telegraphed for a while now, it could already be baked into the cake.
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November 3, 2010 8:49am
nickb

Murray did you read this part:

Budget

* No cuts in overall budget (current year about $3 billion).
* Savings of up to $400 million a year by 2015 to be used on other defence priorities.
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November 3, 2010 8:55am
Murray

I read all of it and I had flashbacks to the Qugley Report in which all 5,000 employees were hauled into the michael Fowler centre and told no one would lose their jobs.

How many do you think were left two years later nick?
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November 3, 2010 9:01am
Chuck Bird

Colin du Plessis, ACT candidate for Mana will be on the Backbenches tonight at 9:10 pm on TVNZ 7 or SKY 97.

Colin is the only true local candidate having lived in the area for 12 years.
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November 3, 2010 9:02am
gravedodger

@ kaya 08 12, I thought raising the prime rate in safe oportunities like Australia had a strengthening result for the currency as it increases the desirability of holding the currency hence raises its value – supply and demand.
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November 3, 2010 9:02am
peterwn

MT_Tinman and others

It is the law that disqualified drivers may apply for a limited licence to drive on work business or under similar circumstances. It is NOT circumventing the law for a disqualified driver to so apply. Because the case for a limited licence has to be well made, the use of a lawyer is pretty well essential. Parliment’s intention was no doubt to in appropriate cases ensure that such a driver could continue with employment and not end up as a burden on the state. Whether a limited licence is granted depends on circumstances – for example there may be no problem for careless driving , 100+ demerits, or drink drive slightly over the limit. There would be for reckless driving or drink drive well over the limit.

If the law allows such limited licences, I can see no objection to Social Welfare helping disqualified drivers obtain suchlicences if there is an overall saving to the taxpayer in minimising the payment of unemployment benefits.

If people are concerned that such limited licences should never be granted then the answer lies in lobbying Parliament to change the law, not to make access to the law difficult for the poor.

I would agree that Social Welfare should not make an advance to finance the appeal against a traffic conviction, but this is not the case here.

If one gives the matter some proper thought, driving disqualification with a ‘work’ exemption woulfd be an appropriate sentencing tool for cases where the driving offence was not too serious. It will appropriately ‘inconvenience’ the offender without losing the services of the offender to the community or having to pay the offender unemployment benefit. It may be that there should be a cheaper way of applying for a limited licence than having to go to court (eg via a probation officer).

This sort of thing needs to be thought out properly, and not be subject of kneejerk reaction, as was Judith Collin’s reaction.
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November 3, 2010 9:29am
tom hunter

If/when DPF puts up a thread on today’s US elections I’m going to put this in, but in the meantime GD can have a laugh.

The SecondCityNetwork (I don’t know if it’s actually connected with the famed comedy troupe in Chicago), went to the Stewart/Colbert “Rally for Sanity” with a certain sign – check out the reactions of the rally attendees to Is Obama A Keynesian.

Comedy Gold.

Remember this the next time somebody implies as to how smart, hip and aware they are in watching The Daily Show and looking down at the stupidity of right-wingers generally and Tea Partiers in particular.
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November 3, 2010 9:49am
mattyroo

Kaya said:

The Aussies RB increased their interest rates to hold their dollar down. Are we going to be the only country that sits back and lets our currency get hammered by artificial forces? Free market my arse.

Interesting school of economics you went to there Kaya.

Increasing the interest rate in low sovereign risk countries, such as Australia, increases the value of their currency – as it is more desirable to be held by investors (carry trade Japanese housewives), due to the higher interest rates that are on offer.

The increase in the Oz rate can swing both ways for the NZD, as quite often the NZD will piggy-back the AUD. However, sometimes the leap in the AUD, due to the increased interest rate, is more than the markets can sustain for the NZD – hence I’m picking the NZD to remain weak against the AUD in the short-term. This is after it had started a small rise against the AUD in the last week or so.

It’s starting to get tough(er) for Oz borrowers, as I see the CBA near doubled the RBA rate hike….
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November 3, 2010 9:51am
Brian Smaller

tom hunter – that was funny. “He’s not a Keynesian, he was born in Hawaii” Ha ha 🙂
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November 3, 2010 9:58am
MT_Tinman

Peterwn, I have read your argument which appears to be that circumventing the penalties set by law is legal in this instance so it is not circumvention (it is!).

I reject it.

I admit my first (knee-jerk if you will) reaction upon hearing this issue was yours but further thought has changed my mind.

I will add that the thought of having to support these law breakers through benefits is also obscene and in my opinion the only assistance these people should get is in the form of refundable grocery, rent and power vouchers if extreme hardship can be proved.
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November 3, 2010 10:05am
Inventory2

@ Peterwn – I disagree. I think Judith Collins summed it up pretty well when she said this:

“Driving is a privilege not a right. If you lose your licence because you have broken the law, be prepared to take the bus,”

Breaking the law has consequences. If those consequences impinge on your life to some degree, they ought be a powerful incentive not to re-offend.
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November 3, 2010 10:21am
Murray

Its a nice idea but the judical systems seems focused on removing consequences from being part of the result of breaking the law.

Look at the celebs that get a free pass.
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November 3, 2010 10:27am
Pita

For the economists amongst us…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_23Nt5XumaU
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November 3, 2010 10:31am
grumpyoldhori

Murray the term from Crete of useless military mouths comes to mind.
The army needs musicians why ? they are not trained medics, infantry, drivers etc etc etc.
So they should be fired out of the army as they are not needed.

Should any people outside of specialised medics etc be in the army if they are not capable of carrying out infantry work when needed ?

The government states it cannot fund a third battalion but at this time we seem to have a lot of useless mouths being feed who should not be in uniform.
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November 3, 2010 10:35am
Mr Magister

The man who bashed preschooler James Whakaruru repeatedly until he died will spend Christmas a free man – despite fears he will reoffend.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10684990

Fortunately Sue Bradford (and by extension Key) have saved the nation’s children from further harm at the hands of this character.
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November 3, 2010 10:36am
nickb

Fortunately Sue Bradford (and by extension Key) have saved the nation’s children from further harm at the hands of this character.

Exactly Magister. Mr Haerewa (and other child abusers) will definitely go down to the library and read the new s59 before they try this again!
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November 3, 2010 10:42am
Murray

My medic was also one of my section 2ics grumpy. And musicians also have basic medial training as well as being casualty clearence trained. Even during dirty great big bloody wars like WW V1.0 and V2.0 we had what you want to claim are none infantry and therefore useless.

someonae has to man A and B ech to keep the guys at F ech operating. And army nurses are shit load more use than civilian ones thanks. For a start they can’t go on strike.

The army is NOT the infantry. If you want to go getting rid of useless people you could start with the public service that was bloated by up to 400% under labour.
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November 3, 2010 10:49am
kaya

Gravedodger and Mattyroo – I’m not an economist (thank fuck, I have a real job 🙂 )
I based my comments on this in the Herald:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/economy/news/article.cfm?c_id=34&objectid=10684916

“The Reserve Bank of Australia unexpectedly increased its benchmark interest rate yesterday on concern stronger growth will cause inflation to accelerate, driving the nation’s currency toward parity with the US dollar.”

The only part I would pretend to understand is that if you make more and more of something you dilute the value of what is already there. This weakens the US dollar against the Kiwi presumably? Our exports get more expensive, imports get cheaper and our whole deficit increases?

I admit, my understanding is layman at best. Happy to be informed by those who know more!!
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November 3, 2010 10:55am
Inventory2

@ Mr Magister – Benny Haerewa has reached his statutory release date. He cannot be legally held beyond that, more’s the pity.
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November 3, 2010 10:57am
backster

PETERWN..What has been happening and the practise you endorse could be described as a Benefit for lawyers. If a Judge sees fit he should grant an exemption for work or other purposes as the time of sentencing,..In my view the Judicial system should have the waste, procrastination, and inefficiency removed before they start on the Defense Department.
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November 3, 2010 11:03am
Repton

@MT_Tinman: peterwn is pointing out that the change is only in stopping WINZ from offering loans to help people apply. It is the intent of the law that people be able to apply for limited licenses. If you don’t like that, then parliament needs to change the law. Instead, Collins has arbitrarily decided to restrict the exemption to people who can afford their own lawyer. Is that fair?
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November 3, 2010 11:25am
Fletch

Can see some red starting to appear…C’mon!
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November 3, 2010 12:23pm
RightNow

Also here Fletch:
http://www.foxnews.com/interactive/politics/election-map-2010/#race=racesInPlay&pres=false&tab=house&state=us-house
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November 3, 2010 12:24pm
Offshore_Kiwi

Repton, yes it fucking well is. Why the hell should I have to pay for some drunken fuckwit to get his licence back, when he didn’t have the foresight to save the couple of grand most lawyers would charge for a limited licence application?
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November 3, 2010 12:27pm
minto57

Those that ignor the lessons of history will repeat its mistakes.
financial meltdown followed by austerity cuts to to defence followed by opportunists followed by
“We are not a threat to anybody”
Sounds like an invitation to me.
Peace is the breathing space between wars
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November 3, 2010 12:57pm
nickb

Rand Paul has taken the kentucky senate seat
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November 3, 2010 12:59pm
hj

Tariana Turia
It doesn’t matter what our take [issue] is, be it tr reo, be it whatever, it is always going to be an uphill battle. But hey, watch this space because over the next 40 years Aotearoa is browning up and it will be at that time that our mokopuna will come back and they will take their rightful place as leaders in this land and they are the ones who will take us forward.

All we can do is do what we can do today.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10684449
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November 3, 2010 1:01pm
Offshore_Kiwi

That stupid woman doesn’t even realise she is just the KKK in a different shade.
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November 3, 2010 1:38pm
KevinH

Judith Collins does’nt have a mandate to comment on Paula Bennetts area of ministry and has made the fundamental mistake on commenting on a colleagues portfolio without prior consultation.
Judiths concern is understandable and reflects the opinions of some members of the electorate but largely her concerns are unfounded.
Disqualified drivers are applying for loans , not grants, and this is a pragmatic solution to what is a conundrum when Winz is attempting to place an unemployed person into work.
The Ministry of Justice has a restorative justice programme whereby offenders are required to compensate to some degree victims of the offenders crimes.To do this they will require some form of capital or work to meet those committements.
Therefore providing that Winz assists these people with loans that will empower them then the scheme is practical and useful.
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November 3, 2010 1:46pm
peterwn

Re disqualified drivers ans Social Welfare

So the real consensus here (including Judith Collin’s stance) is that those who are disqualified from driving for traffic offences should not be able to obtain any limited exemption. This is fair enough and reflects a viewpoint that the purpose of disqualification is to keep ‘bad’ drivers off the roads.

Therefore in my view in this case, legislation should be amended so there is no provision for a disqualified driver (for traffic offences) to obtain a limited licence. Otherwise the rich can afford to ‘flout’ the law, while the poor cannot. As it is, a rich or middle income earner offender (cops included) will often hire a drink drive lawyer to try and derail a drink drive charge on a technicality, whereas the poor just have to take it on the nose.
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November 3, 2010 2:13pm
Offshore_Kiwi

Well peterwn, the “poor” should therefore choose a more sensible course than running up sufficient traffic infringemments. They should choose to sign up for Granny Herald’s stupid 2 drinks max campaign. Knowing they are unable to afford to purchase a limited licence should make them appreciate even more the unlimited one they have, rather than come crying to WINZ and expect the long-suffering taxpayer to bail them out. It isn’t as though they don’t already get plenty of my cash.
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November 3, 2010 2:33pm
joana

So Meridian Energy built a wind farm on top of Aboriginal burial grounds..Secretive mongrels…They want to build wind farms all over the South Island also. Time for a boycott.
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November 3, 2010 2:57pm
Hurf Durf

joe90 is a very clever person. joe90 would never repeat leftist spin verbatim. joe90 says those two producers were just “looking at seeing who might turn up.” It’s Breitbart who has to release the full transcript or whatever.

Yeah, not so much.

What a bright lad.
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November 3, 2010 3:02pm
calendar girl

I’m missing something here. How is that that my taxes are funding beneficiaries so well that they can drink enough booze to exceed the drink-drive limit? Nobody like WINZ pays for my drinks on a regular basis.

The state’s priority with welfare payments should be to target genuine necessities of life, not to distribute somebody’s idea of a “living wage”. When we get that balance right (and better incentives / disincentives in place with it), then we might debate briefly the niceties of the lawyers’ support scheme at WINZ.
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November 3, 2010 3:14pm
Chuck Bird

Mason’s assault conviction quashed

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10685029

John Key said he would change the law if it did not work.

The anti-parental authority control freaks used this case to justify the law.

Juries can easily get it wrong when judges get it wrong.

It should have been obvious that there should have been two separate charges.

There was never any proof that the jury believed he his his son in the head but a flick to the ear is still assault so I can see why they reached the guilty verdict.

To quote Key the law is a dog’s breakfast. It is time it goes.
.
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November 3, 2010 3:16pm
Rex Widerstrom

Aside from the point made by peterwn and others that the law gives people the right to apply for an extraordinary licence the question is one of least cost to the taxpayer.

People seem to be getting confused because it’s WINZ giving out the loans. I assume that the only grounds (aside from medical needs, perhaps) for an extraordinary licence being granted would be that the applicant needs to drive in order to remain employed (and the courts generally impose a 6 or 7 pm “curfew” to ensure that it’s limited to that purpose).

Therefore, is it more cost-effective to loan a person the cost of getting an extraordinary licence and thus remain a productive taxpayer; or to refuse and have them lose their job and become a burden on remaining taxpayers?

They still can’t go out at night, whether to rugby training or the pub, or to play sport on the weekend, or go to the beach, or do any of the pleasurable things we all do in our cars. But their employer is spared from losing a trained staff member and falling behind in production and incurring the costs of replacing them. And their family (if they have one) avoids perhaps losing their home and seeing their standard of living collapse due to the driver’s unemployment.

The fiscal and social cost analysis is clear, and comes down in favour of extraordinary licences. But again, this weird delight some people appear to feel in seeing other people punished seems to cloud the logic of many.
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November 3, 2010 3:31pm
sbk

Sadly Joana,its the probable future of farming(if the warmists/Greens get their way)…from beef and lamb to farming the wind…just a pity we cant eat it.
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November 3, 2010 3:36pm
Offshore_Kiwi

I see the 2025 Task Force’s second report is out today. I wonder how long it will be before John The Appeaser bins it as “too radical”?
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November 3, 2010 4:00pm
Hurf Durf

Love the Hooerald whining about the Defence White Paper and the Clinton visit. Wet Rudman demanding an apology – excuse me? It’s not the US in a position of weakness, Rudman.
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November 3, 2010 4:46pm
nickb

Hurf, did you ever hear about that firefox plugin that removed any mention of Justin Bieber from any web page you visited? We need to make one of those for Brian Rudman.
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November 3, 2010 4:54pm
Rex Widerstrom

It seems the English deserve the “soapdodger” label:

a poll for tissue manufacturer SCA found that 41 per cent of British men and 33 per cent of women don’t shower every day, with 12 per cent of people only having a proper wash once or twice a week.
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November 3, 2010 5:07pm
kaya

I understand the logic of work licences, but I also remember living in the UK when that wasn’t an option. (Don’t know what the law is now). I remember that the lost licence, probable lost job and the ensuing nightmare was one of the reasons it was a deterrent? As I said, I understand the logic but other than a slight inconvenience of not being able to drive at night (your mates would presumably pick you up, no big deal) there doesn’t seem to be any real deterrent.
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November 3, 2010 5:34pm
kaya

“Raid, arrests break elephant smuggling ring”

Fuck I love that headline, brings up some really frightening images. How do you smuggle an elephant??????
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November 3, 2010 6:45pm
Rex Widerstrom

Kaya:

It’s easy. The crafty buggers have very good camoflage. You just put them next to your Gucci bag and bingo, Customs just think you have a lot of luggage.
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November 3, 2010 7:07pm
gravedodger

The intellectual giants on the Maori Affairs Committee think banning tobacco will curtail its use ,YEAH RIGHT.
Why not give the gangs another income stream, I mean prohibition was a great success wasn’t it..
The black market is alive and well at these price levels, so just wait for the end game
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November 3, 2010 7:15pm
Rodders

Good

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4303615/U-turn-on-MPs-travel-expenses
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November 3, 2010 7:57pm
kowtow

I’m an ex smoker but if people want to smoke that’s their business! We’ve been doing it for hundreds of years and the totalitarian,authoritarian brigade are really learning to flex their muscles all over the world. It’s bloody scary.

This country has huge problems with dope ,P etc those idiots on the Comittee surely have bigger problems to attend to.
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November 3, 2010 8:08pm
the bird is the word

It’s quite quiet without Redbaiter isn’t it
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November 3, 2010 8:17pm
MT_Tinman

Repton, yes.

Rex, I need a new vehicle to keep my taxi business running and therefore support myself and keep myself off the dole.

By your reckoning WINZ should loan me the $25,000 I need.

WINZ should not be offering loans at all and certainly not in this circumstance. Their job is to assist those in extreme need and this should be done only with refundable grocery, power and rent vouchers.

Those that need a work license should borrow through commercial lenders and pay interest like anyone else.
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November 3, 2010 8:49pm
Yvette

Banning smoking in your own private car?
There must be a point coming where the Government’s own actions – eg; establishing the danger of smoking in such an area – as to open themselves to litigative liability for continuing to even allow the sale of tobacco itself.

Oh ! . . . that’s the plot. What? . . . Warners wrote it for them? yeah . . . ?
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November 3, 2010 8:52pm
John Gibson

“Think again. Or even better, look again. Social networking is just another clever marketing tag. Parts of it are benign. And other parts are repugnant. If more parents spent more time looking a little closer at what their children are doing online, they will discover that social networking often hides a darker, not so friendly, reality.” – http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/social-networking-kids-out-of-the-safety-zone/story-e6frg6zo-1225946919897
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November 3, 2010 10:09pm
Rex Widerstrom

MT_Tinman:

Rex, I need a new vehicle to keep my taxi business running and therefore support myself and keep myself off the dole.

Did some power mad agent of the state interfere with your right to own the vehicle? Take it away and give you no replacement? Destroy your ability to work? Then you have a case.

Or maybe the lawmakers should wake up and realise that thousands of small businesses rely on their employees being able to drive and stop putting laws on the books that interfere with that. A law that simply says “a person disqualified from driving shall provide from their employer evidence of the hours they are required to drive for their employment and any disqualification shall not apply to that period” would fix everyone’s problem.

And AFAIK WINZ would be means testing those who applied for a loan, so it’s not like it’s an automatic entitlement. Those who’d qualify wouldn’t be eligible for a commercial loan… unless we legislate to force lenders to lend to people who can’t afford the interest they want to charge?
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November 3, 2010 11:10pm
OECD rank 22 kiwi

Don Brash delivers another winner with the 2025 Task Force’s second report.

Looks like New Zealand is failing and by implication John Key.

10% of the population leaving New Zealand for Australia in the next 15 years and taking $30 billion dollars of taxpayer “investment” with them sounds good to me.
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November 4, 2010 3:20am
Viking2

Question for today for All Ratepayers.

Some councils (including Auckland), charge for waste water based on the water consumption. i.e. a % of the water consumption is considered to go to the sewer system and therefor generates a chargeable cost.
New building owners have set up to usurp those charges.
Install your own rain water tanks for toilet and other functions and hey presto small water consumption and no waste water charges.
Now why do I point this out. Well Telecoms new buildings,:
Telco’s new HQ:
* 28,900sq m of offices
* Four buildings, 28 floors
* 168 toilets flushed with rainwater
* 120,000 litre rainwater tanks
* Can accommodate 2700 people

Thats a fair bit of waste water not being charges waste water processing fee’s. Enough to make the Telecoms boys happy.
Now who but the Greenies and architects (are they the same thing), would promote such a devilish ratepayer rip off?

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10685152
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November 4, 2010 6:48am
Offshore_Kiwi

OECD 22, I wonder why the dead tree press and the blogosphere have been so quiet on this one. I mean, I understand kiwiblog wanting to wait until Nat HQ respond to the report before commenting, but I haven’t seen anything from the normally brilliant Cactus Kate, nor from Hickey.

Comrade Fallow from Granny did a small piece on it, but he only spoke to his keyboard and Cun(t)liffe, and didn’t bother to speak to anyone who can actually *do* something about the report’s recommendations (you know, like the government).
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November 4, 2010 5:48pm
GregCooper

Even in cultures with long environmental traditions, it is not unusual to find people who perceive waste water – especially pungent-smelling or mold-bearing varieties such as rainwater or sewage – as unpalatable. Eco-science writer Harold McGee proposes that waste water is such an acquired taste because it is produced through a process of controlled spoilage and many of the odor and flavor molecules in an aged sewage are the same found in rotten foods.
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November 4, 2010 11:28pm

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TDB Daily Reading List 10th May 2024 – Best NZ Left, Independent and Progressive Politics opinion daily reading list
The Daily Blog
No, the govt will not be cutting back on every budget – and the Defence vote is among those to be given a funding boost
Point of Order
Xenophobes R You!
No Minister
Word of the day
Hompaddock
Unwinding Labour’s Agenda
NZCPR
Justice for Bainimarama!
No Right Turn
New trans guidelines for schools will be welcomed by families
Bob McCoskrie's McBlog
KEYBOARD COWARDS
No Punches Pulled (Bob Jones)
The Treasury and productivity
Croaking Cassandra
Super Rugby Predictions for Week 12
Stats Chat
Media Link: “A View from Afar” on the moment of friction, and more.
Kiwipolitico
ABs stripped of 2011 title after try disallowed
Imperator Fish
Legal Beagle: Election '23: The Special Votes
Public Address
Making this movie might have been a mistake
Liam Hehir
Why I am retiring from political blogging
Kiwi FireWalker
Angie Warren-Clark: Meet the Newbies
Dan Moskovitz