General Debate 13 October 2011

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alex Masterley

Nookin,

See the various postings on the Rena.

When cold hard fact and analysis appear the shills disappear.
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October 13, 2011 4:09pm
Chthoniid

There is no proof for anything. You cannot prove you exist. Thats the problem with your claim. It is predicated on a false premise. EVERYTHING is a matter of faith.

yet strangely, nobody ever accused of murder has ever thought of employing that defense. I wonder how anyone ever gets convicted of murder if we can’t prove that the ‘murder victims’ existed?

This is just utter inane, bullshit. It is obvious your beliefs lack the evidence necessary for them to be given credence. You don’t escape this problem by pretending evidence is something that can be banished to suit your delusion.
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October 13, 2011 4:13pm
Lucia Maria

Lee,

Yeah, though you do have to be careful with blanket statements on places such as this. They can be misconstrued.
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October 13, 2011 4:14pm
Mick Mac

Joseph Carpenter (39) Says:
October 13th, 2011 at 2:44 pm

Harmless?
Lets see what our lot cooks up.
Have you read the sit in crowds slogans?
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October 13, 2011 4:19pm
Lee01

Cthoniid

yet strangely, nobody ever accused of murder has ever thought of employing that defense. I wonder how anyone ever gets convicted of murder if we can’t prove that the ‘murder victims’ existed?

Actually, that was my point. You misread what I meant. MNIJ’s concept of “proof” is just debate framing. But the very example you use proves that morality (muder is wrong) is not arbitrary, but absolute.

Partly my fault. As Lucia points out, I should have said “MNIJ’s definition of proof” cannot prove anything, which is true. That does not mean there are not very good arguments and reasonable assumptions we can make, about a whole range of things, God included.
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October 13, 2011 4:30pm
TooMuch

Out of interest – does anyone know why the ability to rate comments was axed?

I recall it was an option on Kiwiblog for a while but then vanished. Presume it was abused?
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October 13, 2011 4:53pm
Nookin

TooMuch

Someone else asked that question recently and I am not sure if DPF responded. I thought is was a good scheme and was surprised that it was dumped.
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October 13, 2011 5:26pm
chiz

The comment rating facility was axed because of its overheads. The server couldn’t handle it.
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October 13, 2011 5:36pm
chiz

Lucia Maria:And the same with God, we can prove He exists as well. Those proofs are based on reasoning where we use the mind He gave us to find Him.

Can you prove God exists? by Peter Kreeft

Amateur hour nonsense and dishonest too:

There are relatively few atheists among neurologists and brain surgeons and among astrophysicists, but many among psychologists, sociologists, and historians. The reason seems obvious: the first study divine design, the second study human undesign.

Most astrophysicists and neurologists are atheists or agnostics. Religion is noticeably less common among scientists than the general public.
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October 13, 2011 5:39pm
Chthoniid

But the very example you use proves that morality (muder is wrong) is not arbitrary, but absolute.

Well of course.
Except for the religious crimes of witchcraft, apostasy or heresy. Then torture and murder is quite ok. Because god said it was. So you can kill them by the thousands.
Or the old human practice of exposing unwanted infants in the wild. Especially is it had State-sanction like Sparta.
Or if you just wanted to keep the helots under control (oops, that Sparta again).
Or that delightful historical NZ custom of cannibalism.
Or the Aztec thing of taking captives to murder for their gods…
Or that delightful tactic of de Montfort in the Albigensian Crusade- kill everyone and trust god will know his own.

It’s kind of funny you promote a religion that murdered promiscuously and think also think murder is absolutely wrong based on exactly the same religion.
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October 13, 2011 5:51pm
Weihana

“There is no proof for anything. You cannot prove you exist. Thats the problem with your claim. It is predicated on a false premise. EVERYTHING is a matter of faith.”

The mere fact that I can consider the question of whether I exist proves I exist because I would otherwise not be able to consider the question. One’s own existence is self-evident to oneself.

Moreover, I think you misrepresent what “proof” is. Proof, aside from logical proof, does not mean that something is 100% absolutely and necessarily true, it simply means that there is sufficient evidence to conclude the truth of some proposition. Thus we have standards of proof such as “beyond reasonable doubt” or “on the balance of probabilities”. These proofs rely on evidence and to say everything is a matter of faith is to say that there is no such thing as evidence which is not true.

Evidence is knowledge which we acquire through sense perception. While we may make conceptual errors in understanding what is sensed I would argue that the reality of our senses is axiomatic. So for instance a person high on mushrooms may see all sorts of things which aren’t really there, but the experiences of the individual on mushrooms is nevertheless “real” even if misinterpreted. Thefore the process of acquiring knowledge (or evidence) in order to “prove” something is the art of non-contradictory identification. The person on mushrooms might realize “Oh I’ve taken mushrooms, those things aren’t really there”. Or a person might look at another person and observe all the attributes which makes something a “person” and then conclude that the other person exists. Simple really and you do it everyday.
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October 13, 2011 5:52pm
Weihana

Lee01,

“…proves that morality (muder is wrong) is not arbitrary, but absolute”

I witnessed no such proof. All moral statements are conditional as you cannot derive an “ought” from an “is”.

Ayn Rand provides a quote I’m quite fond of:

“If [man] chooses to live, a rational ethics will tell him what principles of action are required to implement his choice. If he does not choose to live, nature will take its course. Reality confronts a man with a great many ‘must’s’, but all of them are conditional: the formula of realistic necessity is: ‘you must, if -‘ and the if stands for man’s choice: ‘if you want to achieve a certain goal’.”
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October 13, 2011 5:56pm
thedavincimode

chiz

“The comment rating facility was axed because of its overheads. The server couldn’t handle it.”

Shouldn’t be a problem now then, given that the Big Magpie has gone.
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October 13, 2011 6:30pm
Lucia Maria

Chiz,

Most astrophysicists and neurologists are atheists or agnostics.

What Peter Kreeft said was that there are relatively few atheists, not relatively few atheists and agnostics. There is a quite a difference between an atheist and an agnostic.
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October 13, 2011 7:17pm
Scott Chris

Regarding a comment rater:

FWIW I don’t think it is a good idea if you wish people to behave naturally. Especially in a right wing forum where anyone with a controversial point of view such as mine or Lee’s or Jack’s or Mike’s or Luc’s could get ganged up on, and our only way of fighting back would be to join together as a political ratings group. Ughhh. Politics.

I would be forced to suck up to some posters at the expense of expressing myself freely, as would others. Can’t think of anything worse to be honest, if freedom of expression is the goal here.

I did a timing exercise. It takes less than a fifth of a second to scroll past 200 comments. Or a millisecond to scroll past one if you’re quick enough. Small price to pay if you don’t want to hear what someone has to say.

Or you can install the software Elaycee claims she possesses to block out certain posters. (Though I’m sure she reads my posts. She just can’t help herself. I think she’s in love with me :P)
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October 13, 2011 7:20pm
Lucia Maria

C,

Except for the religious crimes of witchcraft, apostasy or heresy. Then torture and murder is quite ok. Because god said it was. So you can kill them by the thousands.

Back in the day when witchcraft, apostasy or heresy were considered crimes, they were crimes against the state and treated as such by the state. Very different times back then. The Church tended to encourage leniency, not death, despite popular opinion nowadays to the contrary.
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October 13, 2011 7:21pm
Chthoniid

There is a quite a difference between an atheist and an agnostic.

No, not really. They refer to two different categories and as such, are not mutually exclusive.
Even Dawkins (using his own 7 point scale of disbelief) allows for the possibility of a deistic god. He is by this statement, an agnostic atheist.

Agnosticism is about knowledge. In short, the question of whether we know there is a god or not.
Atheism is about belief. That is, whether someone believes there is a god or not.

I lack belief in gods because theists have not proved that such an entity exists. That in itself is not extraordinary. I don’t believe in socialism, or leprechauns, or Ken Ring, or anything of that ilk simply because no evidence substantiates these beliefs either. This is an entirely rational response to any claims that lack supporting evidence.
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October 13, 2011 7:32pm
Viking2

thedavincimode (2,206) Says:
October 13th, 2011 at 6:30 pm

chiz

“The comment rating facility was axed because of its overheads. The server couldn’t handle it.”

Shouldn’t be a problem now then, given that the Big Magpie has gone.

yep it will be. Haven’t you noticed all the fruit cakes and religious nutters that have arrived since. At least Phil was only one.
GD today and yesterday has been the sandpit for the school kids on holiday. Sooner school goes back the better.
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October 13, 2011 7:49pm
Scott Chris

Some would claim that if you believe in existence, then it logically follows that you believe in creation.

If you believe in creation, then you must believe in a creator. Only nihilists can wriggle out of this idea.

Nihilists cannot, however, wriggle out of this one:

Based on the one assumption that nothingness in infinite, then in an infinite probability field, anything is possible according to the ironclad laws of probability.

Therefore a deistic god is possible. A pixie god is possible. A godless universe is possible. Agnostics win in this idea.
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October 13, 2011 7:59pm
nasska

Two old guys, one 80 and one 87, were sitting on a park bench one morning.
The 87 year old had just jogged around the park and wasn’t even short of breath.
The 80 year old was amazed and asked the other man what he did to have so much energy.
The 87 year old said, “Well, I eat plenty of rye bread every day. It keeps your energy level high and you’ll have great stamina, especially with the ladies, if you know what I mean?”
So, on the way home, the 80 year old stops at the bakery. As he was looking around, the lady asked if he needed any help.
He said “Do you have any Rye bread?”
She said, “Yes, there’s a whole shelf of it. Would you like some?”
He said, “I’ll take 5 loaves please.”
She said, “My goodness, 5 loaves … by the time you get to the 5th loaf it’ll be hard.”
He replied, “Jesus. I can’t believe everyone knows about this shit but me.”
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October 13, 2011 8:00pm
publicwatchdog

Seen this?
http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/flurry-last-minute-bills-simon-power-cw-102384

Flurry of last minute bills from Simon Power
Colin Williscroft | Thursday October 13, 2011 | 4 comments

Simon Power introduced four bills to Parliament this afternoon.

They were the Commerce (Cartels and Other Matters) Bill, the Companies and Limited Partnerships Amendment Bill, the Prisoners’ and Victims’ Claims (Redirecting Prisoner Compensation) Amendment Bill and the Human Rights Amendment Bill.
…..”

MY COMMENT:

So – how come, under National’s Minister of Justice (and Commerce) Simon Power – NZ STILL has not yet got our domestic legislative framework in place in order to ratify the UN Convention Against Corruption?

(And how on earth can NZ be ‘perceived’ to be the least corrupt country in the world along with Denamrk and Singapore according to the 2010 Transparency International ‘Corruption Perception Index’ – WITHOUT having yet ratified the UN Convention Against Corruption?)

In my considered opinion, when it comes to fighting ‘white collar’ crime and corruption, it is a clear ‘conflict of interest’ for the person to hold the Ministerial Portfolios for Justice and Commerce.

Is that a significant reason why NZ still has not ratified the UN Convention Against Corruption?

Because organisations such as the one for whom Minister for Justice (and Commerce) is going to work – such as Westpac – have a vested interest in NOT having more stringent controls in place to help prevent ‘white collar’ crime and corruption?

How is it that in 2009, the NZ High Court upheld a total tax assessment of NZ$961 million by rejecting an avoidance scheme used by Westpac Banking Corporation?

Westpac Banking Corporation being the NZ Government’s ‘bank’ – involved in tax avoidance?

[Westpac Banking Corporation v The Commissioner of Inland Revenue CIV 2005-404-2843, 7 October 2009 ]

How is it that a key advisor to Westpac in this case was John Shewan, who became Chairman of PricewaterhouseCoopers, and, according to the above-mentioned judgment – advised Westpac to make tax payments as low as 6% (at a time that NZ’s company tax rate was 30%)?

If these tax avoidance arrangements were found to be ‘unlawful’ – then how can it be ‘lawful’ for John Shewan to have given advice on ‘unlawful’ tax avoidance?

I cannot find any evidence of John Shewan being charged with any offence relating to this matter.

What I have found, however, is that this same John Shewan, ended up on the ‘Tax Working Group’!

Check it out for yourself…..

http://www.victoria.ac.nz/sacl/cagtr/pdf/tax-report-website.pdf

“Foreword
The Tax Working Group (TWG) was established by Victoria University of Wellington’s Centre for
Accounting Governance and Taxation Research, in conjunction with the Treasury and Inland Revenue, in May 2009.

Although an independent Group, it was formed with the support of the Minister of Finance, Hon Bill English, and the Minister of Revenue, Hon Peter Dunne.
The Group’s task was to identify the major issues that Ministers will need to consider in reviewing medium-term tax policy and to better inform public debate on tax.

Members of the Tax Working Group
Bob Buckle, Victoria University of Wellington (Group Chair)
Rob Cameron, Cameron Partners
Paul Dunne, KPMG
Arthur Grimes, Motu Economic and Public Policy Research
Rob McLeod, Ernst & Young
Gareth Morgan, Gareth Morgan Investments Limited
Mike Shaw, Deloitte
Geof Nightingale, PricewaterhouseCoopers
Casey Plunket, Chapman Tripp
John Prebble, Victoria University of Wellington
John Shewan, PricewaterhouseCoopers
Mark Weldon, NZX Limited
David White, Victoria University of Wellington ”

I note that in this Tax Working Group Report there is no reference to tax avoidance or tax evasion.

Looking at the membership of this Tax Working Group – I guess it’s a case of ‘no surprises there’?

Penny Bright
Independent Public Watchdog
Candidate for Epsom
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October 13, 2011 8:10pm
Rodders

tl;dr
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October 13, 2011 8:13pm
nasska

Bruce went to Bondi Beach.

He had the eski next to him, and had a great time watching the sheilas in their bikinis, but after two sixpacks of VB he fell asleep for several hours in the midday sun and got horrible sunburn, specifically to his upper legs.

He went to the hospital, and was promptly admitted after being diagnosed with second-degree burns.

With his skin already starting to blister, and the severe pain he was in, the doctor prescribed continuous intravenous feeding with saline, electrolytes, a sedative, and a Viagra pill every four hours.

The nurse, who was astounded, asked, ‘What good will Viagra do for him, doctor’?

The doctor replied, ‘It won’t do anything for his condition, but it’ll keep the sheets off his burned legs.
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October 13, 2011 8:26pm
Scott Chris

A man is innocent until proven broke. – Johnboy

There are three sorts of lawyers – able, unable and lamentable. – Robert Smith Surtees

Whoever tells the best story wins. – John Quincy Adams

A Lawyer will do anything to win a case, sometimes he will even tell the truth. – Patrick Murray

Ignorance of the law excuses no man – from practicing it. – Adison Mizner

In almost every case, you have to read between the lies. – Angie Papadakis

A lawyer is a gentleman who rescues your estate from your enemies and keeps it for himself. – Lord Brougham
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October 13, 2011 8:33pm
nasska

A survey recently revealed that most women want a man who’s handsome, has broad shoulders, ripped pecs, a flat stomach, and a nice arse.

However, a simultaneous survey revealed that almost all of the men matching those criteria also want a man who’s handsome, has broad shoulders, ripped pecs, a flat stomach, and a nice arse.
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October 13, 2011 8:44pm
Don the Kiwi

A lawyer walked into a bar with a frog on his head.
The barman said, “Where did you get that?”
The frog replied,”Dunno – it started off as a wart on my arse.”
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October 13, 2011 9:08pm
nasska

Playgrounds

1991 – My dad’s tougher than your dad
2011 – My mum’s tattoos are better than your mums
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October 13, 2011 9:20pm
Scott Chris

Dedicated to no one in particular. Certainly not Garrett, Bruv, Eastbay or Lofty.

SURGEON GENERAL’S WARNING: Stupidity is not for everyone. Do not use stupidity if you don’t want to succeed. Do not use stupidity if you are driving or operating machinery. Do not use stupidity if you are nursing, pregnant, or may become pregnant. Side effects may include: pregnancy, injury, death, fiscal losses, injury to others, or death to others.

Always consult your doctor before beginning any cycle of stupidity. Ask your doctor if stupidity is right for you [hint: it isn’t].
Idiots have played a vital role in history, teaching early humans what happens if you place your hand in fire, get on the bad side of a large, angry animal, or look directly down the barrel of your spear. In fact, idiots have often been held responsible for starting the Cold War.

Many people scorn the idiot, saying that they have no value to society, and that they should be exterminated. They are probably right, but it was this kind of thinking that led to the Holocaust. Actually, the United States had a plan to exterminate the idiot population, but this plan was scrapped when they realised that in doing this they would be wiping out at least 86% of their populace. Russia had the same idea, but they too had to terminate the plan because Idiots are the currency there.
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October 13, 2011 9:25pm
Rodders

Evening Scott – didn’t realise that you live in US 😉
http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/celebrities/5777935/Johansson-hacking-suspect-arrested
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October 13, 2011 9:31pm
Scott Chris

Hiya Rodders. Been havin a right old time of it today. Coulda used some help!!!
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October 13, 2011 11:00pm
Rodders

Sorry ’bout that, Scott (I’m only passing by outside business hours, presently.)

The quote that “The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about” might provide comfort 😉
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October 14, 2011 6:34am
TooMuch

Scott Chris – the comment rating capabilities on, say, newspaper websites don’t seem to work like that though (i.e. filtering right or left or agreeable views to the top). Rather, it seems to filter quality comments/opinions on both sides. It isn’t so much about avoiding comments you disagree with – rather avoiding all the cursory ones that don’t add to the debate (or arguments between two commenters which rarely add much value).

Also, the default should be chronological with the ability to sort by highest rated, so opposing views (or whatever) won’t be drowned out.

Anyway, doesn’t look like it’ll be reinstated.
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October 14, 2011 1:31pm

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