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November 6, 2023 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 06 November 2023

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General Debate

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peterwn

Seems Winston originally decided he was going to have no dealings with the ACT party during coalition discussions as he did with the Greens in 2017. So he just ignored a txt from David Seymour reaching out to him. Looks like his stance has backfired on him and he is now back-pedalling. He claims the txt could have been a fake and therefore he did not want to respond. I call BS on this. Winston could have sent a txt to David or otherwise reach out by a trusted means. He said he would only meet David in person but hang it all his reply txt could have been ‘yes, but we must meet soon. How about ……..’.
Winston seems to be up to his old tricks again.
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November 6, 2023 8:02am
- Benedict Yu
  
  I am sceptical of any working relationship betwen Winston Peters and David Seymour. They thoroughly dislike each other and that cannot be erased. It is only a matter of time before something blows up.
  
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  November 6, 2023 8:06am
  - cmm
    
    “They thoroughly dislike each other and that cannot be erased.”
    
    What are they? 12 year olds?
    
    For people who are supposed to lead a country you would hope they are mature enough to get past that. They don’t have to go have a weekend with each other on the beach. They don’t need to sleep together and raise children. They just need to work together.
    
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    November 6, 2023 8:12am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      OK we shall see. I hope I am wrong.
      
      Politicians are not normal people. You and I need to work with people we may not like. They are not like that. It is all about power and winning. Winston Peters is the best example of such a politician.
      
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      November 6, 2023 8:17am
      - cmm
        
        Sure, but they are also employees. We pay them huge amounts to work for us.
        
        Politics seems to be the only job on the planet where you can get paid massive amounts while behaving like a toddler.
        
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        November 6, 2023 8:24am
      - NZL Fusion
        
        For most yes, but for Winston his motivation is someone losing.
        
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        November 6, 2023 8:28am
      - ClanMcleod
        
        At least Peters is acting like an adult whereas Seymour is acting like a petulant 4 year old.
        
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        November 6, 2023 8:42am
      - septic skeptic
        
        Clan, are you wilfully ignoring that Seymour texted him to ask for a talk and Peters didn’t reply because he supposedly assumed it was a prank? They should sit down over a beer and find out if they have some common ground.
        
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        November 6, 2023 8:55am
      - David Garrett
        
        Bene: Spot on. Parliament is most definitely NOT a normal workplace where you like some people, are indifferent about most others, and actively dislike a few.
        
        You become aware that your every move is being clandestinely scrutinised, both by your opponents and the media. And of course your enemies in your own caucus; Muldoon memorably said “my oppenents are in front of me in the House; my enemies are behind me”.
        
        I recall early on in my career talking to Simon Bridges in the House. He taught me to hide my mouth behind my hand so the cameras which are forever panning about could not see what we were talking about. After that I becaame acutely aware of where those cameras were pointing.
        
        I vividly recall one shot – broadcast on TV – of Rodney yawning cavernously while forgetting to cover his mouth. They are not supposed to do that sort of shit – or at least it’s not supposed to be broadcasted – but they do.
        
        I could write a book.
        
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        November 6, 2023 10:52am
      - Fuzzysnuggleduck
        
        Clan, how so?
        A petulant 4 year old that called, and texted Peters? i.e. reached out first.
        And Peter’s is in contrast “acting like an adult” by ignoring both contacts and assuming they were both a prank?
        A bias showing, with such an extreme assertions.
        
        It has been well established by yourself that you are upset about Seymour over the Covid-19 stuff, but Winston is an odd person to put on a pedestal.
        I am waiting to see if he doesn’t throw a spanner in the works.
        They both need to work together and hopeful they can stay more rational & calm than your post.
        
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        November 6, 2023 11:12am
      - Hollyfield
        
        NZ First & Act have a couple of similar policies. If they got together to make their individual policies joint ones, plus another couple each that the other one could live with, they could then go to Luxon with some significant bottom lines, and with a united front could have a much stronger bargaining position. Winston refusing to speak to Seymour only weakens his position in negotiations.
        
        I’ve also seen NZF supporters saying Winston has to be Deputy PM. Many National supporters want Nicola Willis as Deputy.
        
        National on 38%, Act on 8.6% and NZ First on 6%.
        Maybe negotiations will end up with Winston as deputy, but it is arrogant for supporters to demand that the third ranked party must hold the second ranked place.
        
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        November 6, 2023 6:46pm
    - Cassandra
      
      Doesn’t work that way. Peter’s consistently tells porkies, very hard to work with someone who you know you cannot trust. I’m sure Seymour will try.
      
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      November 6, 2023 8:18am
      - Chuck Bird
        
        Are you going to tell me that Seymour is like Ardern who never told a political lie? You must have heard how can you tell when a politican is lying.
        
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        November 6, 2023 11:02am
      - Jack5
        
        Did Seymour tell a porkie about the gun legislation after the Christchurch massacres?
        
        His one vote could have forced legislation changes to a committee hearing. Seymour says he missed the voting chance when he was standing outside the building talking to citizens when the bells went for the vote.
        
        So Seymour’s lone, brave stand failed. My guess is that he was pressured into it by National threats over his electorate.
        
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        November 6, 2023 1:21pm
    - lastmanstanding
      
      This pretty much sums up all that is wrong with politics in this country. Too many people with big egos and small brains. Full of themselves with little or no interest in governing for the good of the citizens. Its all about them them them them.
      Selfish arseholes the lot of them.
      
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      November 6, 2023 9:19am
      - NothingLeft
        
        It think most NZ politicians on the center right at least are genuinely there to do good. Most in National and Act can earn far more doing other things. Greens, Te Racists and Labour less so. And Winston has always just been a narcissistic trougher.
        
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        November 6, 2023 11:23am
    - Drone
      
      cmm they will be unable to work together. Winston is a genuine Luddite, I’m surprised he even knows what a cellphone is let alone a text. He will not document anything, he doesn’t trust technology, and if you’re not in his “party” you are naturally against him, hence the continued aggression towards Seymour. National would almost be better going with the greens, except for Shaw who’s a total plonker..
      
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      November 6, 2023 10:15am
      - cmm
        
        I don’t think he’s really a Luddite. He just doesn’t like to leave a trail because he’s a slippery bugger.
        
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        November 6, 2023 1:57pm
      - Graeme Hall
        
        Didn’t Winston Peters require Cindy to pass a Waka-jumping bill as part payment for anointing her PM? It seems he not only mistrusts those not in his party, but he also mistrusts his own MPs & probably his own misguided voters as well.
        
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        November 6, 2023 2:21pm
    - Loddenthinks
      
      12-year-olds? Much worse than that – 12-year-olds generally have no power to make laws.
      
      They are both hubristic narcissists who tell themselves they are there to make a difference, and that they can’t make a difference if they’re not inside the tent, and that the reason they’re swallowing a dead rat each is to get into power and to be able to make a difference.
      
      But it will inevitably, certainly, predictably end in tears, as every coalition Peters has been part of has done. Every single one.
      
      You would hope they’d be mature enough to get past their personal animosity, but IMO you’d be making a very big mistake to expect any other outcome than the one BY has articulated. I also hope I’m wrong, but they say those who ignore the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. It’s in Peters’ nature. I’d like to think Seymour is a little different, but that’s personal preference only and not evidence-based.
      
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      November 6, 2023 10:50am
    - ClanMcleod
      
      septic skeptic – unless Peters has Seymour’s personal number then I can see why he wouldn’t respond. Why did Seymour text? Pick up the phone and ring his office, speak in person. Winston is 80, he’s not from the texting generation.
      
      Seymour is the one doing acting like a child. He was the same with the Bob McCoskrie interview. It was tragic to watch. To qualify, 2 months ago Seymour was 95% locked in to get my party vote.
      His comments re covid knocked that right bact, then I saw the McCoskrie interview.
      
      He needs to grow up.
      
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      November 6, 2023 11:10am
      - peterwn
        
        David txt’d Winston so he obviously had Winston’s cell number and that would have given Winston David’s cell number (unless David had caller ID blocked – unlikely). So I still call BS on Winston’s lame excuse. And as I said before Winston says he wants to meet David in person, not by phone – surely you would use phone or txt to set meeting up.
        
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        November 6, 2023 12:28pm
      - Ghost
        
        No, you use your staff to arrange the meeting. Winston hasn’t been in parliament for 3 years. Never got on with act, so how do you know Winston had Seymour’s number?
        
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        November 6, 2023 12:54pm
      - septic skeptic
        
        Seymour also phoned. In any case Wi ston should also have called to congratulate ACT and arrange a meet up. My guess is that Winston was hoping to sideline ACT like he did with the Greens last time. It’s not a good look for how things will be going forward. Predictable of course.
        
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        November 6, 2023 1:15pm
    - rouppe
      
      They just need to work together
      
      Act and NZ First don’t even have to do that particularly much. it’s more a case of “they have to be in the same room together”.
      
      When discussing responsibilities for the coalition, give NZ First responsibilities that don’t overlap with ACT and vice versa. You need to collectively agree on the outcome, and the boundaries (before you start) but from that point on it’s more like division leads in a large organisation.
      
      The leaders of those divisions are trying to build their empires and will be looking to make themselves look as good as possible to the leadership and shareholders (caucus and voters) but they only need to come together at the SLT meetings (caucus meetings) in order to report progress to the ELT.
      
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      November 6, 2023 2:48pm
    - Jigsaw
      
      Cmm – You apparently don’t ecall Winson’s previous relationships with other politoval leaders. Such a short memory!
      
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      November 6, 2023 7:47pm
  - peterwn
    
    Winston has a far weaker bargaining position compared with 2017. Winston then stitched up a deal with Jacinda and it seems the Greens did not get a look in and were simply told what was going to happen. This time round Chris Luxon and David Seymour are talking, so Winston is facing some unity between them. The other problem Winston has is Chris Luxon is much smarter than Jacinda so Winston would find it more difficult to put it across Chris.
    
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    November 6, 2023 8:20am
    - Dudley Quaffquaff
      
      One would also hope he doesn’t have the option to go with Labour, since he stated clearly and unequivocally during campaign that he wouldn’t do that. Also, Hipkins doesn’t want government now as much as Jacinda did then so won’t be as forthcoming with baubles.
      
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      November 6, 2023 9:24am
      - David Garrett
        
        Dudley: he stated clearly and unequivocally during campaign that he wouldn’t do that.
        
        And? What Peters says – and not just during the campaign – is utterly meaningless.
        
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        November 6, 2023 10:57am
    - I remember when
      
      He fails to understand what the rest of New Zealand think NZ First’s 6.08% of the vote entitles them to.
      
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      November 6, 2023 9:24am
  - Nickc2
    
    Our country MUST NOT be governed by inter-member School Yard attitudes/personalities.
    Currently, it would appear the present and future of our country depend on a couple of kids getting along with each other.
    Gimme strength FFS!
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:33am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Well it’s time they grew the f…. Up the people have voted for change, so get the hell on with it
    
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    November 6, 2023 12:14pm
- krazykiwi
  
  “Winston seems to be up to his old tricks again”
  
  He’s an old dog. Old tricks is all he can muster.
  
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  November 6, 2023 8:07am
  - kowtow
    
    He still has the rest of the country jumping through hoops .
    
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    November 6, 2023 8:30am
    - peterwn
      
      Then one day he may misjudge and face an unexpected election.
      
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      November 6, 2023 10:29am
      - krazykiwi
        
        Luxon would get huge kudos from me if he decided to call Winston’s bauble-harvesting bluff.
        
        It would be an ignominious end to a career characterised by leveraging angst-aligned constituencies for his benefit, one election after another… unless, of course, this time he decided his last throw of the dice would be with with Labour, the Marxists, and the racists.
        
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        November 6, 2023 3:04pm
- Simon
  
  Winston Peters eh? You National party types have got far bigger problems looming. (and NZ) Don’t mention the screaming left wing nut jobs with the full backing of MSM & woke govt departments who will launch against timid Luxon.
  
  The Nat led govt will only survive with people with a back bone. At the moment that is Peters & Seymour. Timid Luxon aint up to the coordinated hate that will he rolled out.
  
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  November 6, 2023 8:23am
  - Sacha
    
    Oh Simon. P&S have big egos to help stiffen their spines.
    I wouldn’t be surprised if Luxon simply called for another election, citing the inability of P&S to negotiate with each other. There is a limit to any-one’s patience.
    It could happen –
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:27am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Not sure he can now the left would have the numbers now if they team with Peters
      
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      November 6, 2023 12:17pm
      - peterwn
        
        Labour envoys have already reached out to TMP envoys on this without success. Even if they can cobble together a deal it will be potentially unstable and hence vulnerable.
        
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        November 6, 2023 12:33pm
  - peterwn
    
    Chris Luxon could not have held down successful jobs with Unilever or Air NZ if he was that ‘timid’. Indeed being CEO of Air NZ for some years exposed him to the similar sort of political, commercial and human relations issues that he faces as PM. He has a complex set of issues to contend with, but is well equipped to deal with them. He is not going to be a pushover for Winston Peters, David Seymour, any Caucus distractors or his political enemies. He has already ‘made it’ in life – he has nothing to lose.
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:43am
    - mawm
      
      Unilever is uber woke and one does not get anywhere unless one toes the company’s line.
      
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      November 6, 2023 6:18pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Yep, it’s all bloody Luxons fault your hope is a childish fool
    
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    November 6, 2023 12:16pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Old tricks = cryptic nonsense.
  
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  November 6, 2023 8:43am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Once again I refer to Donald Trump’s quote:
  “You don’t have to like someone to respect them, and with that respect you gain respect back”
  Time for these two little boys to show some respect. You work for us.
  
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  November 6, 2023 8:48am
- Surely Knott
  
  Act parties attack billboard against Winston and Seymour saying he wouldn’t be in cabinet if Winston was started this nonsense. Winston has been more gracious than Seymour throughout. I’m sure they will work something out.
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:09am
- David Garrett
  
  peter: Indeed. Like the parable of the scorpion and the frog, Peters simply can’t help himself.
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:44am
- Dudley Quaffquaff
  
  Apart from personal animosity – what are the actual policy differences between NZ First and ACT? Is it too simplistic to put it that ACT are socially liberal and fiscally conservative, and NZ First are the other way round?
  
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  November 6, 2023 11:17am
krazykiwi

Another day. Another reason to despise vapid Greens and their failed ideologies.

This time it’s the cycle lane on Kent/Cambridge Tce in Wellington. The reduction of one traffic lane near the Central Fire Station and the new bicycles-only traffic light phase on the main Courtenay intersection is leaving traffic queues on multiple streets, while blocking Fire Appliance access to Wellington CBD.

This is what happens when Wellingtonians exercise their luxury, magical-belief system at the ballot box.
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November 6, 2023 8:05am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Julie Ann Genter says that cycleway on Kent Terrace has given her “joy and freedom”.
  🗽
  https://twitter.com/JulieAnneGenter/status/1681812319452508161?t=WEIRfazvQt2-yZVeyc_RIA&s=19
  
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  November 6, 2023 8:12am
  - kevn
    
    BY… On nice days only of course.
    
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    November 6, 2023 8:24am
    - pdm
      
      Always with a `tail wind’ Kev.
      
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      November 6, 2023 8:38am
      - kevn
        
        pdm… I’m sure a govt vehicle is pressed into service most of time.
        
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        November 6, 2023 8:52am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        “pdm… I’m sure a govt vehicle is pressed into service most of time.”
        
        AFAIK she has no access to a “government vehicle”. Those are only for Ministers. As an electorate MP she is eligible for a $7,200 allowance towards the purchase of a motor vehicle.
        
        https://oag.parliament.nz/2001/salaries/appendix2.htm
        
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        November 6, 2023 9:10am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Benedict. Does that $7200 apply to that stupid bike?//
        
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        November 6, 2023 9:16am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        “Does that $7200 apply to that stupid bike?//”
        
        Who knows? 🙁
        
        I do know that JAG convinced the last governmemt to subsidise the purchase of e-bikes by public servants. It is hard to think of a more odious or regressive policy.
        
        https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/discounted-electric-bikes-offered-public-sector-workers
        
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        November 6, 2023 9:50am
      - Drone
        
        You don’t need a tail wind pdm if you have an electric bike..
        
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        November 6, 2023 10:19am
      - Drone
        
        The $7,200 allowance a la BY and then mileage allowance as well because apparently it costs $$ to drive a car and the poor lovies shouldn’t have to pay for all those hydrocarbons or perhaps kilo watt hours themselves.
        
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        November 6, 2023 4:39pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Nice days means two days a year.
      
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      November 6, 2023 9:11am
      - kevn
        
        BY… I am sure she access to ‘free’ transport. Paid for by us. Uber/taxi.
        Her silly bike caper is just virtue signalling.
        
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        November 6, 2023 9:15am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        “BY… I am sure she access to ‘free’ transport.”
        
        Only on parliamentary business – not to shop for groceries and take her children to daycare.
        
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        November 6, 2023 9:36am
      - rouppe
        
        It isn’t 1974 anymore Steve.
        
        Quite frankly with the floods in Auckland, and the overbearing humidity I’d rather be here in Wellington than up there.
        
        Not to mention you’re more likely to catch a bullet in Auckland than you are a bus.
        
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        November 6, 2023 2:55pm
    - Benedict Yu
      
      So how do the kids get to daycare on a typical Wellington day? Her only alternative would be a bus or a taxi.
      
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      November 6, 2023 9:11am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      Agree… Anyone trying to negotiate the Courtney Place – Kent Tce Crossing in a southerly storm , or a northerly gale (ie 9 months of the year) knows that that wind funnel is no place for a bike.
      
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      November 6, 2023 9:13am
      - krazykiwi
        
        Yup. I’m a VERY experienced cyclist. 40’ish years. Multiple countries. Road, MTB, cross-country. I avoid this part of Wellington, and yet I see pink-haired, full-wet gear clad people riding 2-kids-in-a-basket megabikes down here.
        
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        November 6, 2023 9:48am
    - Groggy
      
      No JAG cycles in all weathers. Everyone else, not so much
      
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      November 6, 2023 12:20pm
  - imalwaysright
    
    Who in their right mind would risk their childrens lives in that contraption.
    
    Not only is it a dark hard to see colour, it is double the width of a standard bike.
    Its also electric and the battery is conveniently mounted right behind the kids.
    
    Why would she use this in a busy city with narrow potholed roads ?
    
    She is clearly willing to sacrifice her kids safety to signal her fake virtue .
    
    What an odious person.
    
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    November 6, 2023 8:50am
  - oldpark
    
    Wonder would the same cock up happen in Genters City of Boston before she came to NZ .Asking for some angry Motorists .
    
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    November 6, 2023 8:54am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    She claims that her two little children being transported by bike are “incredibly safe”. I actually doubt that. I think having two little children transported by bike in Wellington traffic is more like moderately dangerous. If it was “incredibly safe” and even moderately convenient, thousands of parents in Wellington would copy her example.
    
    I guess by refusing to own a motor vehicle she sticks to her principles.
    
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    November 6, 2023 8:55am
    - kevn
      
      BY… When transport is provided why own a car?
      
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      November 6, 2023 8:56am
      - Benedict Yu
        
        JAG gets no transport provided unless she is on official parliamentary business. In her personal life and ferrying her children around she is on her own.
        
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        November 6, 2023 9:06am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Last night I was on a vid chat with my Wellingtonian brother.
      I mentioned the name Julie-Ann Genter. He said he didn’t want to even talk about her. Biggest head case in Wellington.
      
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      November 6, 2023 9:20am
      - imalwaysright
        
        S.O
        
        I would say she is the second most vomit inducing person in recent politics .
        No prizes for guessing the first.
        
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        November 6, 2023 9:49am
      - GJM
        
        “another sort of Whanau” so to speak
        
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        November 6, 2023 10:35am
      - Jack5
        
        Bob Jones writing about J-A Genter, in Jones’s Breaking Views blog, 16 April, 2020:
        
        First, to clear the air, I like Jacinda and don’t wish the government’s demise.
        
        Long before there was any thought of her rise I admired her and Julie Anne Genter more than any other MPs. That’s because when I occasionally tuned into Parliament and they were speaking they did so enthusiastically, arguing for initiatives they thought beneficial, without ever resorting to the customary and tiresome abuse of the other side.
        
        Is Genter still focused on environmental issues? The rest of the Greens seem to have gone whole hog on Far Leftist politics and issues like Palestine.
        
        Jones writing about Genter:
        
        https://breakingviewsnz.blogspot.com/2020/04/sir-bob-jones-coming-economic-crisis.html
        
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        November 6, 2023 11:20am
      - kevn
        
        BY… There is no way a family could function normally being carless in Welly.
        
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        November 6, 2023 12:27pm
  - krazykiwi
    
    “joy and freedom” is what a Wellington southerly experiences as it passes from JAG’s left ear through and out beyond her right ear.
    
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    November 6, 2023 9:50am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      All she hears is a quiet whooossshhh.
      
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      November 6, 2023 10:58am
- igm
  
  And not a cycle to be seen.
  
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  November 6, 2023 8:16am
  - Dudley Quaffquaff
    
    In fairness – come back when it’s been operational for a year, ie in all seasons. Any cycleway, no matter how well designed and non-disruptive, will always have lower use outside summer months. A full year of data would be a better basis for drawing conclusions
    
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    November 6, 2023 9:28am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      In 2023 in Christchurch, cycleway use trended upwards all through winter.
      
      https://ccc.govt.nz/transport/improving-our-transport-and-roads/traffic-count-data/cycle-counters/
      
      However Christchurch has a much better climate than Wellington 🙂
      
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      November 6, 2023 9:34am
      - MCōs
        
        I used to cycl to work for years in Wellington in most weather.
        The weather wasn’t an issue. You soon warm up even on the coldest day. For me it was the hills that tested one’s resolve.
        
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        November 6, 2023 3:59pm
- cmm
  
  Don’t blame the Greens. Blame the voters. Parties are only a result of the feedback system generated by the voters.
  
  And while you’re at it, don’t blame the voters either. The incentives of Wellington (being able to live on other peoples’ money and power-trip) is what draws in those Greeny voters to the extent they could make a “safe space” for themselves.
  
  It is inevitable. Look at Canberra – exactly the same.
  
  Here in Chch we have some similar “clever” roading. One of the feeder roads in Riccarton had a lane closed off with a low wall to make a two-way cycle lane. As a result nobody can move aside to let emergency vehicles through. I saw an emergency vehicle stuck there for 5 minutes during rush hour traffic.
  
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  November 6, 2023 8:18am
  - Burtland
    
    in the central city, traffic halts if someone parked opens a car door – all the expansive coloured road markings are fading – they seem to now paint stripes rather than solid blocks of colours – they cant use mechanised road sweepers because of all the curbing – the traffic control causes congestion – designed by idiots and fools
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:07am
- kowtow
  
  The MP for Tijajuana has posted a photo of himself, Swarbick and GG at a hug hamas bash .
  
  Could even be the event where P Twiford encountered such hostility for daring to mention the fate of the hostages.
  
  Up and down the country were events organised by far left elements calling they claim for a “ceasefire”
  
  No mention of the slaughter on 7 Oct or the hostages , the constant rockets from all directions including Yemen and Lebanon.
  
  But most shamefully of all ; the Green MPs ,who are willfully blind particularly to how homosexuals , women and minorities are treated by the Iranian regime and their proxies across the Middle East and who have deliberately fostered this war for their own international geopolitical , selfish, anti democratic ends.
  
  One can only hope that the bright young things and women particularly ,who seem so enamoured of the Greens ,would get woke to their far left , extremist agenda , dressed up as concern for cuddly, furry animals . Pathetic.
  
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  November 6, 2023 8:28am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    I wonder if the MP for Tijajuana understands that if he visited Gaza he would be violently killed if Hamas discovered that he was gay?
    
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    November 6, 2023 9:51am
    - NothingLeft
      
      Perhaps the whole Green caucus could head to Gaza for the summer hol’s to help? They could educate Hamas on importance of proper attitudes towards LGBTQWERTYUIOP, perhaps organize some pride events to bring light to the poor darlings.
      
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      November 6, 2023 11:31am
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        A fact-finding mission?
        
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        November 6, 2023 7:04pm
  - Jack5
    
    NZ members of Parliament who expressed solidarity with Palestinians on keffiyeh day in 2021;
    
    Wily-Willie Jackson was among them, and the Labour MP for Christchurch Central, Duncan Webb:
    
    https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO2105/S00090/congratulations-to-new-zealand-mps-showing-solidarity-with-palestinians-at-a-time-when-it-is-so-desperately-needed.htm
    
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    November 6, 2023 11:28am
    - kowtow
      
      What is it about lefty luvie MP’s and cosplaying ?
      
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      November 6, 2023 12:26pm
  - Ra Henare
    
    KowTow
    
    You do know that emotions are driving your comments as well as the Pro Palestinian protests.
    
    Your emotions were triggered by the 7th October slaughter of 1400 including women and children and subsequent media coverage
    
    Their emotions are triggered by the 9,000 and counting slaughter of women and children(Bombing) and the subsequent media coverage.
    
    There is are no good guys and bad guys.
    Both sides have their faults.
    
    There is only tragedy.
    Rational thinking observers want the carnage to stop.
    
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    November 6, 2023 3:04pm
    - All_on_Red
      
      Rational thinking observers know that Hamas will never stop.
      Here’s the Leader of Hamas speaking
      “HAMAD: The occupation must come to an end.
      
      Q: Occupation where? In the Gaza Strip?
      
      HAMAD: No, I am talking about all the Palestinian lands.
      
      Q: Does that mean the annihilation of Israel?
      
      HAMAD: Yes, of course.”
      Perhaps we should believe them when they say it.
      https://hotair.com/ed-morrissey/2023/11/03/nbc-to-hamas-spox-how-can-you-demand-a-cease-fire-after-pledging-more-10-7-attacks-n589721
      
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      November 6, 2023 3:16pm
      - Ra Henare
        
        Of course my response would be.
        dont believe everything you see in an interview.
        
        Remember
        Jacinda being interviewed.
        THE VIRUS SPREADS BECAUSE OF THE UNVACCINATED
        
        THE VACCINE IS ENTIRELY SAFE
        
        etc etc
        
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        November 6, 2023 6:45pm
- cas
  
  Has anyone ever done a cost analysis exercise on the number of cyclists v the cost of all these cycleways? I know from my driving up and down the Tauranga Express way that I have only ever seen 7 cyclists on it. But hey perhaps cost benefit is not the answer. It will be the feels.
  
  PS Julie Anne better watch out. Someone will swerve into the cyclelane at some stage.
  
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  November 6, 2023 8:37am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    Christchurch has sensors that count the bikes. The average daily count averages 10,000 across the network. However you need to halve that to count the numbers of cyclists as the sensor will count the bikes outbound from home and inbound. So that means 5,000 cyclists using the network each day.
    
    https://ccc.govt.nz/transport/improving-our-transport-and-roads/traffic-count-data/cycle-counters/
    
    Based on my casual observation during peak hour on a prominent cycleway, I would estimate about 5-10 cyclists per minute.
    
    Also it is worth remembering that there are 315,000 passenger motor vehicles registered in Christchurch.
    
    https://figure.nz/chart/UxIYw4oXZ9BBIydk-0puDPF2X1ZkZPsxs
    
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    November 6, 2023 9:31am
    - Jack5
      
      Cyclists are running the Christchurch Council.
      
      Road works to make cycle ways and bike-friendly corners are rife.
      
      It would be far cheaper to set up groups of stationary bikes as exercise stations for staff in council workplaces.
      
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      November 6, 2023 10:04am
    - septic skeptic
      
      You also have to allow for the lycra lunatics doing laps through the sensors to boost the numbers.
      
      16 2
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      November 6, 2023 10:11am
      - All_on_Red
        
        I have seen exactly this in Quay St in Auckland
        A couple of the road maggots going back and around the sensors several times
        
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        November 6, 2023 10:29am
    - Burtland
      
      The city council traffic group used to employ many cyclists – the council then banned staff from using bikes when doing council work – unsafe. They were then supposed to use the council cars but most didnt have a drivers license – so they ubered instead and ran up a massive travel bill.
      
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      November 6, 2023 10:19am
    - Dudley Quaffquaff
      
      Comparing the number of bicycle trips made with the number of motor vehicles owned isn’t meaningful.
      
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      November 6, 2023 11:21am
    - NothingLeft
      
      So they’re a low single digit percent of perfectly flat, low wind and low rain Chch travel? Reality failing to conform to loonie misanthropic left’s field-of dream narratives.
      
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      November 6, 2023 11:35am
    - Local Miller
      
      You probably have to divide that by 2 or 3 again because they have sensors on multiple locations and no way of knowing if a cyclist went past multiple counters over their route to or from work.
      
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      November 6, 2023 2:07pm
    - slightlyrighty
      
      However, it must be remembered that when it comes to cyclists, Christchurch has 2 distinct advantages that Wellington does not.
      
      1. Christchurch has much wider streets.
      
      2. Christchurch is Flat.
      
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      November 6, 2023 3:26pm
  - What's the Frequency, Kenneth?
    
    Probably worth considering the total cost of Car on Bike incidents, from hospital/ambulance costs, rehabilitation, lost productivity, quality of life costs etc.
    
    And I don’t mean the Can’t Understand Normal Thinkers who run red lights and flout other road use conventions, they deserve the stupid prizes.
    
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    November 6, 2023 12:54pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  Try Adelaide Rd. One cycle lane outside the hospital, one bus lane heavily monitored by WCC cameras, one lane for cars. Guess which lanes are empty.
  
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  November 6, 2023 7:07pm
Im Right

I see Winnie is having a go at the media now, and fair enough too.
Good strategy, National and ACT can get on with actually implementation of policy whilst the media are distracted/outraged/busy by some tweet or interview that Winnie gave.
NZ1st can be the media decoy sitting outside the headmasters office whilst the teacher continues teaching the class …a masterstroke!
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November 6, 2023 8:05am
- Jack5
  
  And the media are giving Peters a work-over.
  
  For him, the role of non-participating observers is abandoned, and the reporters become part of the game.
  
  Here’s Amberleigh Jack, classified as a “lifestyle and entertainment” reporter, in Stuff today, winding up her account of Peters at a Port Waikato election meeting in Pukekhohe::
  
  ” … a brief visit to the bathroom against the side wall of the hall and NZ First leader, Winston Peters with his gleaming black shoes shuffled back out of the hall and away from the left wing ‘shills’ of the media …”
  
  Hell’s teeth! Is Ms Jack alleging that Peters finished his meeting by pissing on the wall of the hall?
  
  Talk about a hit job ….
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:13am
Warren

Another day and more rubbish from a
Labour Minister suggesting Anachy and letting his mouth get in front of his brain with statements like the protest and violence at a sports event like the Springbox in 1980 could happen again if the Government goes ahead with a referendum on the TOW.
IF this had come from a pakeha all shit would have broken out by now and Willie Jackson would be screaming racism.
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November 6, 2023 8:17am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Everything is racist according to Willie – except himself of course.
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:36am
  - Jack5
    
    Wily-Willie Jackson is a smart operator.
    
    Look at the Maorification of Radio NZ, and more or less its operational merging with the State-subsidised network of 20 or so tribal radio stations.
    
    This provided a Left-wing, national information and entertainment service that backed Ardern.
    
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    November 6, 2023 9:59am
- Loddenthinks
  
  It did come from a pakeha – Willie Jackson wasn’t it? He’s about 3% Maori, if that.
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:54am
- imalwaysright
  
  Warren
  It seems that there is only one ‘principle of the treaty’ for people like jackson and the self appointed maori representatives:
  
  ‘Give us money and there won’t be any trouble (until the money runs out and we want more).’
  
  In any other country it would be known as extortion and the perpetrators would be arrested.
  
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  November 6, 2023 11:19am
Sparrow

I have finally seen the light regarding Stuff. Yes many KBs have seen it a long time ago. Read two disparaging articles in todays edition. One related to Winston in Pukekohe and the other regarding the failure to have Māori wards in Auckland. The articles were sneering at older Pākeha citizens for supporting Winston and voicing their opposition to the wards. I note one article was written by an entertainment journalist she should stick with that. That’s me finished with that rag and reading the Herald is pointless as most articles are behind a paywall and I am not paying twice as my taxs have gone to support it already.
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November 6, 2023 8:20am
- kowtow
  
  If you’re a member of your local library sign up to press reader .
  
  You’re paying for it through your rates.
  
  And yes , I endeavour to click on $1uffed as little as I can.
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:14am
KH

If your task is deciding to uplift a child in danger, or not uplift, you are going to get it wrong often enough. Inevitable. And a child might die.
Then we had the racists campaigning that the decision should be made on political grounds. That’s even worse. It was nothing to do with the child’s best interest. So worse.
May the bastards rot in hell.
https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/301001586/jehan-casinader-oranga-tamariki-stopped-uplifting-children-is-this-what-we-wanted
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November 6, 2023 8:25am
- cmm
  
  Sure there is a blurry grey bit in the middle, but when members of the family are calling on OT to do something then it surely is no longer in the grey zone. Uplift.
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:13am
  - Dudley Quaffquaff
    
    Not necessarily. The family members may be more motivated by malice against the mother, or by wanting to get their hands on more benefit, than by concern for the child.
    
    It is neither possible nor helpful to try to make generally-applicable rules which allow no scope for individual, case-specific, contingency-dependent judgement.
    
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    November 6, 2023 9:35am
    - KH
      
      Yes. Happens in the lowlife community certainly.
      
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      November 6, 2023 10:32am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    And don’t place the child with the next door neighbour.
    
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    November 6, 2023 9:38am
  - septic skeptic
    
    I have to say “Ruthless Empire Souljah whatever” would be enough evidence for me.
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:18am
- Gravelroad
  
  Instead of channelling resources into debating whether to uplift or not uplift, how about someone actively putting some real heat on the people who are killing these kids?
  OT must be one of the biggest wastes of space we currently have in this country.
  They are funded big, but what do they actually do – you know – for the kids?
  Not funding the selfish, criminals and drug addicts who keep giving birth and abusing them.
  Animals look after and value their young better.
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:40am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    A big problem is that family violence by Maori is blamed on colonisation. If you accept that premise, the only way to end violence is to “decolonise”.
    
    ““There is no historical support for claims that traditional Māori society tolerated violence and abuse towards children and women.””
    
    https://www.2shine.org.nz/resources/colonisation-and-family-violence/
    
    It is simply counter-factual compared to international historical events. Taiwan was occupied by Japan for 50 years with many thousands of people killed.
    
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7312/liao13798
    
    If a Taiwanese man killed his child and blamed the Japanese occupation, he would be considered insane and locked up.
    
    Maori men killing children will not be solved so long as ‘colonisation’ is blamed.
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:00am
    - Gravelroad
      
      Ok, someone has to say it – might as well be me-
      “Colonisation” is just an excuse.
      Some big man who can’t control his temper and who is high on meth takes offence at the baby crying and bashes it until it is dead. Might not be his kid anyway- so who cares?
      “Why did you do this” asks the person from OT.
      “Um err – colonisation made me do it. Not my fault. I’m the victim here.”
      
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      November 6, 2023 10:16am
    - Burtland
      
      “maori men killing children” – there are no full blood maori left.
      
      So they are euro-maori or just plain NZers that are killing kids.
      
      We all need to own it.
      
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      November 6, 2023 10:39am
      - rouppe
        
        They’re plenty bloody Maori when they want a leg up the waiting lists, or want access to scholarships not available to others, or want extra paid days off work for cultural events or want their vote to count for more than others.
        
        As long as we allow for racial exclusions, they can wear their terrible child abuse problem.
        
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        November 6, 2023 4:27pm
    - Paulus
      
      Maori violence is long exposed to well before colonisation.
      Is it accepted the killer war lord Te Raparaha made the War cry Kamate as a war and therefore violent cry for absolute violence, including intertribal murder.
      New Zealand should be ashamed in that it is still used today as it remains indicative of coming from a violent mentality and we see this in the children violently taken today and regularly.
      
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      November 6, 2023 11:14am
      - Jack5
        
        Sometimes it was for profit, as in the trade of tattooed heads, sold to the gun and rum runners before the Waitangi Treaty.
        
        Now NZ taxpayers are financing parties of the sellers’ descendants to fly to Europe and bring the heads back, with much ceremony.
        
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        November 6, 2023 12:06pm
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        Maori tribal stories, Maori myths, Maori legends, etc are replete with tales of violence and nasty deeds.
        
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        November 6, 2023 2:15pm
      - Ra Henare
        
        Paulus. You do know the history behind Kamate??? IT IS NOT A WAR CRY>
        
        Perhaps you need to do some research before propogating falsehoods.
        
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        November 6, 2023 3:09pm
      - rouppe
        
        Te Rauparaha is steeped in violence, revenge, conquest and slavery.
        
        https://teara.govt.nz/en/biographies/1t74/te-rauparaha
        
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        November 6, 2023 4:30pm
    - Kiwiguy
      
      The benefit is also a creation of colonisation.
      Let’s cut it for the ferals such as this family.
      
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      November 6, 2023 12:28pm
- edhunter
  
  What I’d like to know KH is who this “we” they speak of?
  I for one would like to see an increase in “upliftings” with a (almost) never to be returned caveat added in for good measure.
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:50am
  - KH
    
    Ist para. We, the people of NZ
    2nd para. Fully agree
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:27am
- sirknz
  
  Here we go again…
  
  https://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/301002889/infant-found-dead-in-south-auckland-police-making-enquiries
  
  Place your bets as to the kid having:
  – a stupid name
  – being a special person
  – gang linked
  – solo mum
  – state house
  – revolving door of unrelated people in the house
  
  Any other factors you want to add?
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:45am
  - KH
    
    You pretty much got it
    
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    November 6, 2023 11:23am
  - Jake Dee
    
    I would also add high probability of undiagnosed and untreated mental health issues or personality disorder.
    
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    November 6, 2023 4:35pm
- Loddenthinks
  
  As long as the media use pejorative terms such as “uplift”, “steal”, “kidnap”, and “hands off our tamariki”, bleeding hearts will march in the streets to stop the heavy hand of the state from intervening.
  
  Why don’t they use the word that really describes what they’re doing to these tamariki (tacit acknowledgement, if any were needed that the overwhelming majority of cases involve Maori families)?
  
  SAVE
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:58am
  - NothingLeft
    
    uplift doesn’t sound pejorative. Though ‘saved’ (from shitty caregivers) is more accurate.
    
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    November 6, 2023 11:40am
    - Jake Dee
      
      Exactly it’s a euphemism. I don’t think anyone was using it in the 90s. A bit of investigation could determine exactly when and which “communication strategist” cooked it up. Those sorcerers are always trying to put a positive spin on something and are people who DON’T believe that “a rose by any other name would smell as sweet” but DO believe in “give a dog a bad name and hang him”.
      A little trip over to dictionary.com gives me,
      Uplift
      Verb (used with object)
      to lift up; raise; elevate.
      to improve socially, culturally, morally, or the like:
      to uplift downtrodden and deprived peoples.
      Noun
      an act of lifting up or raising; elevation.
      the process or work of improving, as socially, intellectually, or morally.
      emotional or spiritual exaltation.
      
      Is there ANY other English-speaking nation who use that term as an official designation for government agents removing children from the homes of unfit parents?
      What we have is an attempt to shoehorn in a connotation of spiritual exaltation and enlightenment into a highly traumatic experience.
      They make the bad look better rather than actually better. It’s word magic occult voodoo.
      Real dangerous stuff
      
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      November 6, 2023 5:04pm
- septic skeptic
  
  An as yet unexplained death of a toddler in South Auckland this morning. Deja vu all over again?
  
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  November 6, 2023 1:33pm
slightlyrighty

The trick to dealing with Winston is to give Winston what Winston wants, while not giving Winston what Winston’s support base wants. That way, you only have to deal with him for 1 term.
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November 6, 2023 8:30am
- RoboRob
  
  Give him Minister of Foreign Affairs, problem solved. His out of the country most of the time so you dont have to deal with him. He is good at Foreign Affairs as smooth talking people without actually saying anything is 99% of the job.
  
  Its a win win. The issue is coming up with something for the rest that Jones and the tag alongs can stomach.
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:17am
- cmm
  
  I think many of Winston’s votes were a once-off “fuck you” to National/Act over the way National/Act treated Covid non-believers.
  
  National and Act alienated what should have been “their” vote. Instead of then pulling their heads in and saying sorry they doubled down.
  
  In time, ie for the next election, those people will drift back so long as:
  * National/Act don’t continue to alienate them.
  * Winston doesn’t find a way to hold on to those people.
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:19am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    2026 Winston will be finished, and so will NZF.
    Even if he is still running, NZ will finally wake up to his nonsense.
    
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    November 6, 2023 9:42am
    - septic skeptic
      
      The current lot will, but if he can live forever he will always find enough gullible customers after a term outside parliament.
      
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      November 6, 2023 10:23am
    - cmm
      
      “[Insert year] Winston will be finished”
      
      How many times have we heard that? And here we are…
      
      He can sniff out opportunities that others create for him.
      
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      November 6, 2023 11:02am
      - NothingLeft
        
        He’s older than dirt at 78, only 2 years younger than Biden, and hiding decline with increased bluster/aggression.
        
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        November 6, 2023 11:44am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      “2026 Winston will be finished, and so will NZF.
      Even if he is still running, NZ will finally wake up to his nonsense.”
      
      Good grief. I can’t tell if you are being sarcastic 🙂
      
      I told folk that Winston was finished not last time he was out of Parliament, but the time before that.
      
      Winston will be finished when he dies or he is too ill or infirm to continue.
      
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      November 6, 2023 11:05am
      - imalwaysright
        
        B.Y
        
        When Winston dies we will choose a leader who identifies as Winston.
        He/she only has to fit the double breasted pin stripe suit.
        Basically a kiwi dalai lama.
        
        9 1
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        November 6, 2023 11:39am
  - krazykiwi
    
    “Instead of then pulling their heads in and saying sorry they doubled down.”
    
    Exactly.
    
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    November 6, 2023 9:54am
    - cmm
      
      Just a one-liner acknowledgement and saying sorry would have given National/Act another 5% from the “fuck you” Winston voters as well as another % or two that were lost to all the other oddball conservative parties that sprung up for the same reason. Winston would not have been in parliament, so another lift from that (effectively another 3% or so).
      
      Being smarmy cost National/Act a good 8 to 10% of the vote.
      
      I hope they look in the mirror and learn. I fear they won’t.
      
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      November 6, 2023 11:07am
      - Gravelroad
        
        I’m picking that Mr Luxon did not factor the determination of the single-issue voter into National’s election campaign.
        His advisors could have given him more of a “heads-up” about the lingering resentments around the mandate protests and the river of filth insults which National didn’t address at the time.
        Single issue voters had too big an influence on this election – at the expense of the big ticket policy items of getting rid of the socialist wreckers and securing opportunities which might lead to a recovery for NZ Inc.
        
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        November 6, 2023 11:57am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        Don’t talk utter crap, 99% of people do not think about that rubbish, I hear nothing mention in my large circle of friends about your constant gripe
        
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        November 6, 2023 12:27pm
      - Ghost
        
        Good for you. However the people I am around do talk about it, and how they lost their jobs, or had to close their businesses because of it. So just because you don’t know anyone doesn’t mean shit.
        
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        November 6, 2023 12:48pm
      - krazykiwi
        
        Oh dear … “99% of people do not think about that rubbish”
        
        The “rubbish” being the greatest ever assault on the rights of New Zealanders, the attempted creation of a two-tier society based in injection status, the greatest impoverishment of future New Zealander as a result of using red-hot money printers to bribe NZers, and the media?
        
        That “rubbish”, G?
        
        Luxon, your great hope, was TONE DEAF (yes, I’m yelling) about this issue and he has been punished for it by being denied what should have been the easiest opposition->government formation in history.
        
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        November 6, 2023 1:53pm
      - cmm
        
        Giant. Maybe you and the folk that lined up to be saved don’t know people like that but there are many that are in that camp – especially, as Ghost said, those that lost jobs and businesses.
        
        If you can’t understand that people might think differently to you about things then you will never understand much.
        
        Some of the things politicians said were extremely humiliating and hurtful – eg calling people rivers of filth. And the only political figure that stood up was Winston (yes, for sure, for his own ends, but he still said something). All the rest just followed along.
        
        Such levels of humiliation cause a lot of hostility and emotion. Enough to make people into single issue voters even when there are really far more important things to be concerned with.
        
        Many voters are single issue (or few issue) voters – whether that is climate change, welfare, economy, health or education.
        
        Many are emotional voters eg. all the women voting for Cindy because she’s a woman of ditsiness “just like me” or Covid voters who are enraged past a point they can forgive.
        
        Whether they SHOULD or SHOULD NOT vote like that is not really for you to say. People all have the same value vote and can use it as they see fit. Broken or not, that’s what democracy gives us.
        
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        November 6, 2023 1:54pm
      - imalwaysright
        
        G
        You don’t have a large circle of friends. We’ve read your posts.
        Perhaps change your daft posting title and start a new life.
        All the best.
        
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        November 6, 2023 2:24pm
  - RoboRob
    
    IF you are right and Winstons voters want COVID action, It will be VERY interesting to see what if anything Winston does. Will there be anything in the coalition documents? I would not be surprised if Winston insists that his section of the agreement is kept confidential.
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:03am
    - cmm
      
      I doubt anyone really thinks Winston will deliver and effective investigation. He has never delivered in the past, so why not?
      
      I think most of the “Covid rebels” just wanted to send a message – once – I doubt they are fooled by Winston. Rather, they just could not bring themselves to vote for someone that ridicules and humiliates them.
      
      I was right on the edge of doing so myself.
      
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      November 6, 2023 11:11am
      - RoboRob
        
        ‘I doubt anyone really thinks Winston will deliver and effective investigation.’
        
        Lol, I was going to reply, ‘Check Clans posts’. But low and behold the next reply down is from him saying…. ‘Peters will only get one shot at this. If he lets down those damaged by the covid policies he won’t get another chance’
        
        I’m not criticisng Clan, I am saying it will be interesting to see if he follows through this time. His track record isn’t great.
        
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        November 6, 2023 11:51am
  - ClanMcleod
    
    cmm – good analysis, something NACT could have and should have addressed pre election.
    
    Peters will only get one shot at this. If he lets down those damaged by the covid policies he won’t get another chance. They were worth around 4% of his votes.
    They were available to Luxon and Seymour who both raised their middle finger to these people. So yes, it was a bit of a ‘fuck you’ to both of them.
    
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    November 6, 2023 11:24am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      How did Peters dropping Māori seats get on?
      
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      November 6, 2023 12:28pm
      - mawm
        
        Do you understand what happens in a coalition government especially if you are the junior partner? You probably get very little of what you stood for during the elections.
        
        So from that we can assume that Luxon is not going to give Winston his comprehensive Covid enquiry as Luxon is a true believer, as he is of climate change and the road to zero.
        
        In my circle very few acknowledge the disaster caused by Jacinda’s covid response and the mRNA injections but none believe in climate change and loudly proclaim it.
        
        Luxon’s just too leftwing, spineless and a company (Globalist) man. I’m surprised he did as well as he did. It’s probably due to Seymour behaving like an arrogant prick.
        
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        November 6, 2023 6:38pm
    - cmm
      
      Clan, Peters will only get one shot at it for the Covid voters and I bet you he doesn’t deliver.
      
      Based on historical delivery from Winston, at best what will be delivered is a watered down poi-waving ceremony and lots of bluster.
      
      And I bet that most of those one-off Covid voters won’t be voting for him in 2026 for three main reasons:
      * The “fuck you” voters have said “fuck you” once. That is enough and are now appeased.
      * By then the feeling of hurt has subsided and there will be more pressing issues for most of those people.
      * Winston Peters will disappoint anyone who really hoped he would deliver.
      
      But don’t dismiss Winston in 2026 yet. He is a master at sniffing out an issue and exploiting it (and exploiting the people). By 2026 I’ll bet he has forgotten about Covid. He leaves a wake of such discarded issues from winebox enquiries to Pike River and now Covid.
      
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      November 6, 2023 1:37pm
    - krazykiwi
      
      “Peters will only get one shot at this. If he lets down those damaged by the covid policies he won’t get another chance”
      
      He won’t need another chance.
      
      Cunning as a shit house rat, he will sniff out some angst causing issue that has a constituency just large enough to secure him a few baubles.
      
      Just like he’s done at every election for the last 30 years.
      
      Hopeful voters have kissed their Winnie-elevating ballot papers and prayed that “… this term he will be different.”
      
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      November 6, 2023 2:06pm
    - rouppe
      
      So lets say Peters wastes his one shot.
      
      Where will your vote go then?
      
      National and ACT won’t materially change their position because they’ll “be focussed on the things that matter to NZrs” and that won’t include the (by then) historical mandates.
      
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      November 6, 2023 4:38pm
vand

The local community rag for Wellington West has the Onslow College principal saying success includes inter alia “equity,” “honouring Te Tiriti” and “valuing diversity of thought”.
Our granddaughter assures us there is no diversity of thought at Onslow College . Many of the teachers are simply activists pushing leftish ideology esp. in English and Media Studies and even in a French exam (topic on trans gender )
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November 6, 2023 8:31am
- Miritu
  
  Homeschool revolution in US. Hoping to see the same here in NZ
  https://tuttletwins.com/newsletter/confirmed-the-post-pandemic-education-revolution/?utm_klaviyo_id=01FN2B7SD26TPDGX6E3EAZNKXH&nb_klid=01FN2B7SD26TPDGX6E3EAZNKXH&_kx=DGDPlJ6J4V6MiGToRavMk3w7f4xLdtq3pGpGcyhXQLg4mVD9gA6Krz4XJ9dMHvN-.Vv3cEp&al_pg_id=6b9bd213-a383-4d29-8d0b-a3142c483a4a
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:46am
  - kowtow
    
    Yes but essentially that is not just a tactical retreat , it’s a battlefield rout leaving it to the enemy.
    
    Good people shouldn’t allow the far left , any politics indeed, to invade schools and any publicly funded institutions …….
    
    That’s losing.
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:20am
    - cmm
      
      There are around 3000 homeschooling families in NZ.
      
      Good people should not just hand over their responsibilities to the state and whine when the state does not deliver.
      
      The state ALWAYS gets infected. That is how the state works. Show me one organisation in any Western country not infected and I will be surprised.
      
      To try to stop that is kinda pointless. Far better: construct your life so that you need the state as little as possible.
      
      I can’t control/fix the whole broken education system in NZ. But we could home-school. Sure, it cost us a salary and probably over $1M of potential income but so be it.
      
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      November 6, 2023 11:17am
      - Diogenes
        
        I fully support families that home school their children because of where the education system is going. HOWEVER, there are many other reasons why families go this route. One of my grandsons is ADHD. He bounces around the walls and back again, and there is no way a teacher having to deal with 30-or-more other kids could manage him. My daughter-in-law is managing him pretty well — I take my hat off to her in a difficult role (thankfully he is an only child) — and the family is part of a collective of homeschoolers who meet weekly to provide the interaction and some subjects needed to round out the curriculum. I’ve been to several of their end-of-year celebrations, and am highly impressed with both their educational standard and their deportment.
        
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        November 6, 2023 12:26pm
      - kowtow
        
        I fully support the freedom of choice of good parents to home school , I take my hat off to them.
        
        My point is we can’t afford a whole sale surrender to the Blob.
        
        Conservatives need to stand and fight.
        
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        November 6, 2023 1:02pm
      - cmm
        
        kowtow: “Conservatives need to stand and fight”.
        What do you mean by “fight”? How much time and effort are you prepared to put into it?
        
        It’s pointless pissing into the wind. At a certain point it is just easier to do your own thing.
        
        There are around 600,000 families with school-age children in NZ. 3000 are homeschoolers. Therefore the rest (ie. 199 or of every 200) are sufficiently satisfied with current schools that they are not doing anything about it.
        
        They might bitch and moan a bit, but, for the most part, people do nothing.
        
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        November 6, 2023 1:24pm
      - Jake Dee
        
        I sympathize with your position, but I think you’re wrong and kowtow is basically correct. An individual can defect, externally to another nation (if they will have him) or internally and become a monk in the mountains, but families and communities cannot.
        “Going Galt” like in the Ayn Rand novel “Atlas Shrugged” is just not a feasible option. The closest examples would be the Amish in America or the various Brethren sects here in NZ. Even then they are still dependent on the state which they, in turn, have very little control over. They can’t build vital infrastructure like roads railways and airports, they can’t negotiate with foreign powers, and they certainly can’t create an effective military. They would be hard pressed to make a civil militia.
        They might in turn reply that they depend on the grace and providence of Lord God Almighty, which in my vocabulary cashes out as depending on dumb luck.
        
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        November 6, 2023 5:28pm
- Paulus
  
  Trevor Mallard “taught” at Onslow College so nothing changes.
  
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  November 6, 2023 11:17am
- imalwaysright
  
  Vand,
  
  “equity,” “honouring Te Tiriti” and “valuing diversity of thought”
  
  This is word association . We are meant to fill in the context and therefore give credence to the ramblings of some low intellect marxists .
  Note that they never give a full and frank explanation of what they mean. It is always a few emotive words that we have been programmed to fear.
  The best retort to their verbal excretions is to ask ‘what do you mean?’ and keep asking them until they give a sensible answer. This will never happen because after the third time they will have a meltdown and call you a racist.
  
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  November 6, 2023 11:57am
  - miltonF
    
    That’s exactly how these conversations go. They’ll never describe what they want because they would be admitting they want racism and apartheid. As soon as they realise they are about to make themselves look really bad, they flip and start projecting – no it’s you that’s the racist! Lol…
    
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    November 6, 2023 2:27pm
- rouppe
  
  The headmaster at Wellington College made a stirring speech about being stronger united – and then issued prizes for “best Maori student” and “best Pasifika student”.
  
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  November 6, 2023 4:40pm
plc

So Greater Wellington has just spent umpteen million building a cycle lane between Petone and Melling…..and still the a#$eholes still insist on riding on the two lane Hutt Road.

Now GW are spending hundreds of millions on Wellington to Petone cycle lane so they can do the same.

Make the pr#$ks use it.
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November 6, 2023 8:37am
- cmm
  
  If there is a cycleway, then the cyclists should use it. Period.
  I know some want to go faster than other cyclists do etc, but the road is not there for your racing pleasure. If you want to race then go to a velodrome.
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:20am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Toll them for using the road will fix that.
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:44am
- imalwaysright
  
  I noticed yesterday that it is fully lit at night. Looks like 2/3 size lamp posts every 8 or 10 metres .
  So the entire length will be illuminated all night every night?
  Can you imagine the carbon footprint of that amount of electricity that we generate from Indonesian shcoal?
  How many use it every day?
  It would be better used as a lane for ambulances to get to Wellington faster.
  
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  November 6, 2023 12:05pm
Maggie Pie

What to make of this?

‘The David Knight Show’…..

MAORIS GIVE JAIL SENTENCE TO COVID CRIMINALS

https://twitter.com/libertytarian/status/1717964871805907125
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November 6, 2023 8:39am
- KH
  
  What I make of it Maggie is that there are nut jobs about. Hero’s in their own dreams. Sad.
  
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  November 6, 2023 8:42am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Seems you have to log on to the Maori Government website to get the court judgement..
  
  Sentencing of Four NZ Government Officials
  The first court sitting of COJ-07-23-001 was convened to deliver judgment to four convicted New Zealand Government officials, Christopher John Hipkins, Andrew James Little, Ashley Robin Bloomfield and Christopher James for their part in actions that breached He Wakaputanga and actions that led to serious Covid 19 crimes.
  
  The following is exclusive to tangata who are enrolled to the Jurisdiction of He Wakaputanga and logged in to our new website. Open to all people from this land. Please join us, if you support this extremely important kaupapa/purpose that affects all of mankind. The following information is historic, and should not be taken lightly.
  
  https://govt.maori.nz/index.php/category/news-posts/news-releases-from-pou-arahi-upoko-pirimia/
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:26am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    GOOD GOD… it is actually a happening thing then??
    That is so so scary.
    
    10 1
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    November 6, 2023 9:32am
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      Well just behave yourself if you are in Te Awamutu, where the Maori Gvt is based.
      
      https://govt.maori.nz/
      
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      November 6, 2023 9:50am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        The only good thing about Te Awamutu was the Commercial Pub, back in the 70s. Best pies ever.
        
        12 1
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        November 6, 2023 9:58am
      - thirteenstars
        
        “The only good thing about Te Awamutu was the Commercial Pub…”
        
        Ahem, you might have heard of Tim and Neil Finn, Split Enz, Crowded House.
        
        And no doubt they’ve both had a beer and probably played at the Commercial.
        
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        November 6, 2023 10:07am
      - thirteenstars
        
        From the Maori Govt. website:
        
        Kaitiakitanga. There are spiritual beings, kiatiaki (guardians) over the natural environment such as, Rongo, Tangaroa, Tawhirimatea, Ruaumoko, Tane, Tu Matauenga are some of the well known kaitiaki, we remember we are in their realms and respect and care for the environment, our taonga and the wairua (spirituality).
        
        So it’s a religious organisation. Spirits guarding the environment.
        
        Don’t mock them. That’s the kind of garbage that’s being taught to your children and grandchildren under the guise of Mauri “science”.
        
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        November 6, 2023 10:11am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        @thirteenstars,
        Way back then I wasn’t into music. To busy drinking piss and chasing sheilas.
        
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        November 6, 2023 2:26pm
- Dudley Quaffquaff
  
  Yes, because allowing the accused a defence is just so colonialist
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:37am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Someone is pulling my left tit.
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:59am
  - sirknz
    
    Sorry. Sometimes I get nervous.
    
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    November 6, 2023 4:32pm
I remember when

The UK Covid Enquiry raises a number of questions.
* How much was the death toll increased because of the “FEAR” the media, official medical and government sources and the WHO generated?
*Did this fear result in Care Home reduced the level iof care they felt it was safe to offer?
* Relatives of residents have mentioned neglect, dehydration and hunger.
* Did the remote doctor use increase the accuracy of diagnosis?
* How many extra deaths did the extended use of ‘end of life’ medication result in?
* Was excessive pressure exerted to get ‘Do Not Resuscitate’ notices signed?
* Questions about whether some ‘covid’ deaths victims even had covid.
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November 6, 2023 8:46am
- krazykiwi
  
  UK Covid Enquiry was supposed to answer those questions. Instead it has delivered what was always intended: a whitewash with a side-serving of mocking narrative skeptical voices.
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:19am
  - cmm
    
    Ours won’t be any different, except it will have some poi-waving.
    
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    November 6, 2023 9:22am
    - RoboRob
      
      If all those NZF COVID voters are right then Winston will make sure thats not the case!
      
      Lets see….
      
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      November 6, 2023 10:05am
      - cmm
        
        I doubt Winston will deliver because he very seldom, if ever, does.
        I doubt many of the NZF Covid voters are expecting him to either. Instead they just registered a once-off protest vote.
        
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        November 6, 2023 1:16pm
    - kowtow
      
      Poi waving .
      
      Anyone else notice the incremental increase in indigenous stage props over the years .
      
      A few years back the introduction of the conch .
      
      With this rugby world cup they waved a paddle around .
      
      What next ?
      
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      November 6, 2023 1:06pm
  - Miritu
    
    Yes, Spectator sums it up well
    https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/we-needed-a-covid-inquiry-but-this-isnt-it/
    
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    November 6, 2023 9:51am
    - I remember when
      
      Does isolating the elderly reduce their will to live so that signing ‘Do Not Resuscitate’ orders seems like a better option.
      
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      November 6, 2023 11:45am
- ClanMcleod
  
  The whole UK inquiry was a sham. It is superbly covered in this post on the Daily Skeptic.
  
  https://dailysceptic.org/2023/10/20/the-double-standard-applied-by-the-covid-inquiry-when-taking-evidence-from-john-edmunds-and-carl-heneghan-yesterday-reveals-its-bias/
  
  Thousands were euthanised with morphine and Midazolam. As soon as someone in a care home got flu/covid, this was the protocol. DNR followed by suffocating medications that suppress the respiratory system.
  
  No doubt many medical people and nurses believed the hype around covid being a deadly plague and that they were ‘helping’, but they were wrong.
  Many of these people put on DNRs and medicated could have survived.
  
  No wonder politicians want to avoid talking about it. It is next level malfeasance and it is the same in NZ.
  
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  November 6, 2023 11:35am
Maggy Wassilieff

Another great opinion piece from Michael Bassett…

sure to upset his old mates from the Left.

Between 2017 and 2023 Labour’s caucus failed to realise that privileges for Maori were seen by the newer immigrants to New Zealand as penalising them. The same for fourth and fifth generation Pakeha. As more and more of the tribal elites strutted around with tattoos and moko, demanding additional Treaty “entitlements”, and Labour tried to find ways to satisfy them, first the Chinese, then the others, and finally the Indians, all of whom who had come to New Zealand to work, and to get ahead, joined other Kiwis resenting this racially-charged largesse to the many who were work shy.

https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/michael-bassett-the-2023-election-in-retrospect
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November 6, 2023 8:47am
- kowtow
  
  He talks of Mahuta and water and co governance .
  
  That’s interesting but the bigger picture is Finlayson and “co management” as the vanguard for this madness .And indeed Key sending that fellow off to the UN and all the indigenous wondefrfulness that followed.
  
  Elements of both parties are guilty in this march towards tribal rule.
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:06am
  - Jack5
    
    Yep, Finlayson, before he was a list MP, negotiated the sweetheart deal for Ngai Tahu.
    
    The tribe’s settlement has been followed by substantial “top-ups”.
    
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/102982674/ngai-tahu-and-waikatotainui-receive-substantial-treaty-payments-to-acknowledge-historical-deal
    
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    November 6, 2023 9:54am
slightlyrighty

To all those people who have been protesting about the OT Uplifts saying “Hands Off Our Tamariki”, all I can say is…

“Hands off our Tamariki?? You first!”

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/301001586/jehan-casinader-oranga-tamariki-stopped-uplifting-children-is-this-what-we-wanted
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November 6, 2023 8:53am
Maggy Wassilieff

Is TV One News shilling for start-up Finance companies?

Did anyone else think that item on the 6pm News last night about first-home ownership in Auckland was a bit odd?

https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/11/05/average-auckland-house-deposit-may-reach-1m-by-2045-report/

And how long has Derek Handley been in the home-financing scene? I thought he was some grand IT person…… (remember the Chief Technical Officer-Clare Curran debacle at the start of the Ardern regime?)
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November 6, 2023 8:57am
- thirteenstars
  
  Probably what they call a “commercial integration”, which is euphemism for a sponsored news story.
  
  They do it all the time.
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:15am
  - fredonas
    
    Also known as a “native ad” in the trade.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_advertising
    
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    November 6, 2023 12:35pm
Maggie Pie

Imagine how you would be feeling as a parent this morning when you dropped your children off at Kadimah School….

‘Lesbian MP-for-Auckland takes on role of Islamic Preacher’ 🙁

https://twitter.com/ElliotIkilei/status/1720932095126823423

Surely you’d have to agree when people say Chloe is as mad as a snake!
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November 6, 2023 9:02am
- cmm
  
  The “anti-genocide” people that want to see Israel wiped from the map and all Jews killed.
  
  Yup, sounds like Green logic to me!
  
  PS: I wonder whether DPF still considers James Shaw to be a “nice guy”?
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:40am
  - Maggie Pie
    
    DBS has been calling Chloe & Co’s antisemenism out for yonks.
    Thank goodness ACT are now in a position to call the shots.
    
    https://twitter.com/dbseymour/status/1394766875507130368
    
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    November 6, 2023 9:48am
    - Jack5
      
      MaggyP’s …Chloe & Co’s antisemenism…
      
      The God of the Keyboard sometimes puts us right, Maggie.
      
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      November 6, 2023 11:31am
      - NothingLeft
        
        I think the world is well served by their being antisemenites. We certainly don’t want more of their strain imposed on the earth.
        
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        November 6, 2023 11:51am
- Notsofast
  
  It is a civic duty to make sure every New Zealander sees this clip.
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:11am
- kowtow
  
  The start of that clip seems to show her complaining about the Auckland Museum.
  
  Is that cos they had the temerity to show some sympathy for the victims of Hamas terror .
  
  And yet these genocidaires , for that is what they are , can’t find any place for an accomodation of the other side , at all .
  
  Hardly in the spirit of democracy , minorities , women etc that the Greens constantly bleat about , in other circumstances .
  
  They are shameful hypocrites . Especially the “gay” among them who are utterly despised by the very people these demonstrations of hatred are designed to appeal to.
  
  And we must remember how much of this current war was fomented by the Tehran terror mullahs.
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:58am
- emmess
  
  James Shaw was very conspicuous in his absence during Chloe’s Queers for Palestine hate rant.
  
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  November 6, 2023 11:24am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Turkeys voting for Christmas
    
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    November 6, 2023 12:36pm
- kevn
  
  Maggie… Be interesting to see her DNA.
  Not enough issues in NZ to work on.
  
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  November 6, 2023 12:43pm
- rouppe
  
  And they’re all wearing a keffiyeh.
  
  How very fake.
  
  Said it the other day, surprised Golriz didn’t do another fake hair cutting charade.
  
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  November 6, 2023 4:55pm
oldpark

IDF: Hamas Using Children as ‘Human Shields,’ Hiding, Attacking From Playgrounds
By Eric Mack | Sunday, 05 November 2023 09:20 AM EST

The Israeli Defense Forces continue to expose the Hamas terrorists’ plan to hide out in areas around children in order to blame Israel when innocent children are killed in the war, using children as human shields and foment worldwide scorn for the loss of innocent lives.

The IDF is sharing videos by soldiers of the 551st Brigade and photos of a Hamas-plotted terrorist hideout by soldiers of the 401st Brigade, which show a rocket launcher site at a children’s playground and near a children’s pool.

“IDF soldiers continue to expose Hamas’ exploitation of the civilian population – including children – for its terrorist activity in the Gaza Strip,” the IDF wrote in a statement Sunday morning to Newsmax. “During fighting in the Gaza Strip, IDF soldiers are exposing how the Hamas terror organization systematically uses civilian facilities for its terror activity.

“IDF soldiers located rocket launchers near a children’s swimming pool, as well as launch pits and rocket launchers in an old children’s playground in the Gaza Strip. This is further proof of Hamas’ deliberate use of civilian infrastructure and civilians – including children – as human shields for its military operations.”

The IDF has warned mainstream media of the Hamas scheme after it waged a massive attack on Israel on Oct. 7, taking hostages from Israel and using them and the women and children of Gaza as human shields to protect it from Israel’s retaliatory military operation to free the hostages.

“All of this is in the heart of a residential neighborhood,” a soldier explained in the video.

Hamas has fired more than 8,000 rockets at Israeli civilians since Oct. 7, when thousands of its terrorists invaded the western Negev, murdering 1,400 persons, wounding over 5,000 others and taking more than 200 hostages back to Gaza.

The Hamas terrorist plan to hide behind children is a long-running one, according to IDF spokesman Maj. Doron Spielman to Newsmax this week, because it risks the lives on innocents and helps feed the worldwide media on a narrative that Israel is targeting children in its Gaza operation.

Instead, the innocent lives are at the hands of Hamas, because they are refusing to permit Gaza citizens to leave, knowing it would leave them vulnerable to more Israeli strikes at terrorist targets.

“What we can see is when we take out terror operatives, there’s an entire spiderweb,” Spielman told Wednesday’s “National Report.” “The network that they built underground was literally built beneath all these buildings, so any compression that happens in those — in that vast tunnel network — affects the buildings overhead.

“But this was all part of Hamas’ plan. It was scripted in advance, because we know their civilians really just are there to provide cover for the terror activities, and the proof is we keep asking the civilians to move, and they keep asking them to stay.”

Israeli warplanes struck a refugee camp in the Gaza Strip early Sunday, killing at least 40 people and wounding dozens, according to the Hamas-led Gaza health ministry. The strike came as Israel said it would press on with its offensive to crush the territory’s Hamas leaders, who are using refugee camps, hospitals, and children areas to inflict mass media damage on the Israel operation.

Israel has rejected the idea of halting its offensive, even for brief humanitarian pauses, because as Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said this week, “a cease-fire means Israel’s surrender to Hamas” terrorists.

An Associated Press reporter at a nearby hospital saw eight dead children, including a baby, who had been brought in after the strike. A surviving child was led down the hospital corridor by an adult holding her hand, her clothes caked in dust, an expression of shock on her face.

The camp, a built-up residential area, is located in the evacuation zone where Israel’s military had urged Palestinian civilians in Gaza to seek refuge as it focuses its military offensive on the north.

Blinken met with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in the occupied West Bank on Sunday, a day after meeting with Arab foreign ministers in neighboring Jordan.

Abbas, who has had no authority in Gaza since Hamas took over in 2007, said the Palestinian Authority would only assume control of Gaza as part of a “comprehensive political solution” establishing an independent state that would also take in the West Bank and east Jerusalem, lands Israel seized in the 1967 war.

His remarks seemed to further narrow the already slim options as to who would govern Gaza if Israel succeeds in toppling Hamas. The last peace talks with Israel broke down more than a decade ago, and Israel’s government is dominated by opponents of Palestinian statehood.

Blinken had met with Netanyahu on Friday, who insisted there could be no temporary cease-fire until all hostages held by Hamas are released.

Arab leaders have called for an immediate cease-fire. But Blinken said that “would simply leave Hamas in place, able to regroup and repeat what it did on Oct. 7,” when the group launched a wide-ranging attack from Gaza into southern Israel, triggering the war.

Israeli planes once again dropped leaflets urging people to head south during a four-hour window Sunday. Crowds of people could be seen walking down Gaza’s main north-south highway on foot with only what they could carry in their arms, while others led donkey carts.
Hamas Murderers today reiterated that the massacre and pack rapes of 1400 Israelis on October 07 2023 was just a beginning .
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November 6, 2023 9:04am
- mawm
  
  IDF: Hamas Using Children as ‘Human Shields,’
  
  Nothing changes. Quotes from Golda Meir.
  “Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”
  
  “We can forgive [them] for killing our children. We cannot forgive them from forcing us to kill their children.”
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:39am
  - All_on_Red
    
    Anyone who thinks the ‘Civilians’ in Gaza are innocent is a naïve fool.
    https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/11/the-root-cause-of-violence.php
    There has been decades of demonising Jews and this is the result.
    
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    November 6, 2023 11:08am
    - mawm
      
      Probably centuries of hate for those not like them being preached in the houses of worship of the Religion of Peace. After all was the religion not founded as a counter to that of The Book and that of The Cross?
      
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      November 6, 2023 11:46am
Handyman

One of my predictions is coming true.

There are now a series of media articles saying how bad things are for people in many areas, and the incoming government needs to fix it. (The exception being Bloomfield who insists the health system is just fine).

What’s next…
Within three months all the housing issues, homelessness, crime and health issues will be due to the cost cutting by the new National government.
Labour are really good at being in opposition and will organize a multitude of media hit jobs using their union spokespeople disguised as “Mary from the Hutt, suffering from obesity who cannot afford to put food on the table”.
National risk getting sidetracked by new “crises” every news cycle and get no cut-through via the media. Labour will repeat “nasty”, “unkind” and other focus driven trigger words tirelessly for the next three years.

Once they get over the election result, Labour/Green will realise they only need 45% of the party vote to form a government compared to the right needing 55% to do the same. That is due to TPM having a lock on the Maori seats. That realisation will energise the left to lie, cheat and put the boot into National; and they will have fun doing it.
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November 6, 2023 9:07am
- Miritu
  
  And yet National will likely keep funding the legacy media (mainly through advertising)
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:55am
I remember when

A Climate Change Success Story? Look at Hoboken: NY Times.
The city of Hoboken, N.J., once a marchy outcropping that the Lenape inhabited only seasonally, hugs the Hudson River.
Three-quarters of it occupies a flood plain.
Some scientists have forecast that, with rising seas, a big chunk of Hoboken will be Atlantis by 2100.
In September, another storm socked the city.
It dumped more than 3.5 inches of rain on a single Friday morning, 1.44 inches of it during the hour that coincided with high tide.
Hoboken has been adding infrastructure to cope with both rain as well as sea-level rise.

Later in article –
Old sewers like New York’s, which process both waste and storm water, were built to handle only a couple of inches of rain per hour.

So using an old flood plain to emphasize ‘Climate Change.’
Also ignoring the fact that New York’s ‘old infrastructure’ could handle all the rain quoted for Hoboken.

Notice that “Some Scientists” and “2100” get the usual mention.
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November 6, 2023 9:10am
Tony Stuart

I’m taking a break from Kiwiblog. I start a new job next week which will be different from anything else I’ve done in fifty years of working, and I want to give it my full attention. It’s a contract role until Christmas, with an opportunity for a longer term contract if it works out all round.

I’ll still be lurking around the sidelines, but not commenting; it’s fair to say I like to have my say, so not doing so will be a rest of my self control! All the best to everyone I have engaged with over about 18 years now since I first discovered Farrar’s Troll Farm as Kiwiblog was once described!
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November 6, 2023 9:16am
- RoboRob
  
  Will miss yout comments Tony. Hope the job goes well:)
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:19am
- krazykiwi
  
  Best of luck to you, Tony. Hope the new role is fulfilling.
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:24am
- Maggie Pie
  
  Will you still be ‘X’ing Tony? Hope so 😀
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:40am
  - Tony Stuart
    
    Yes, but nowhere near as frequently.
    
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    November 6, 2023 1:15pm
- Ghost
  
  Enjoy your new job, and if you find during the day you start having imaginary conversations debating with someone, it’s ok, it’s just withdrawal.
  
  You’ll be missed
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:41am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  I will miss the well reasoned comments. Good luck.
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:12am
- All_on_Red
  
  Best of luck Tony.
  Have enjoyed your sensible commentary.
  I think its been almost 18 years for me on KB too.
  
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  November 6, 2023 11:12am
- GregM
  
  Good luck Tony, hope it all works out well.
  Greg Moore.
  
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  November 6, 2023 11:34am
Yvette

[Yesterday] morning on Q+A, Jack Tame asked Jackson if he plans to leave politics after Labour lost the election.
Jackson responded: “I want to stay because I’m nervous about what might be coming, you know in terms of this nonsensical Treaty referendum, let me tell you now Jack, if they try and push that through it’ll be 81 Springbok Tour, civil unrest times five, times ten.“
https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/11/05/willie-jackson-treaty-referendum-risks-springbok-tour-protest-repeat/

It would define the principles of the Treaty as:
1. All citizens of New Zealand have the same political rights and duties
2. All political authority comes from the people by democratic means including universal suffrage, regular and free elections with a secret ballot
3. New Zealand is a multi-ethnic liberal democracy where discrimination based on ethnicity is illegal
The public would vote for or against the act becoming law, similar to the End of Life Choice Act referendum in 2020.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/kahu/what-stands-in-the-way-of-the-act-party-plan-for-a-referendum-on-the-treaty-of-waitangi/BRY4YNISLVF45C36TDO3QO6GCM/

I guess “similar to the End of Life Choice Act referendum in 2020” means in the same format – are you in favour, yes or no, of a specific well-publicised piece of legislation, rather than a lengthy question? – or Willie Jackson’s ’81 End of Life Choice.

And a “democracy where discrimination based on ethnicity is illegal” could also outlaw any superiority by religion.
“Te Mana o te Wai” or “Ao Maori” – Maori world-view (religion) – are not needed to value pure water as a life force, or have a sensitivity for the environment which produces it.
The State should be absolutely secular.
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November 6, 2023 9:28am
- cmm
  
  ” The State should be absolutely secular.”
  
  The problem with that is that the state itself can become a religion.
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:44am
  - Yvette
    
    Cmm –The problem with that is that the state itself can become a religion
    
    I would rather deal with that when and if it happens, rather than have “Te Mana o te Wai” set in concrete – if you get the little cognitive dissonance there :o)
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:11am
- Swifty
  
  Once again I see a vested interest (Jackson) not saying what would be wrong with the referendum on the principles and offering arguments in rebuttal. Oh no, it’s just more “there will be blood in the streets” talk.
  
  Why is that I wonder? Does he not have any arguments? Can he not offer a coherent rebuttal on the points Seymour has made? Are threats of upheaval and violence all he’s got?
  
  And, while we’re at it – again not one mention of what he would do to quell, prevent or talk down any violent demonstrations or other illegal activity. Not one word. In any other situation he’d be quick to warn or cajole or beseech or threaten or condemn, especially if it were righties threatening to be up in arms over something.
  
  Why nothing in this case? It’s almost as if he would be pleased to see such violence and villainy. Or, at the very least, pleased to be able to raise the idea, to float it as a possibility, in order to see his vested interest protected from analysis, criticism and a democratic contest of ideas in the form of a referendum.
  
  This really is appalling hypocrisy from Jackson and his leftie mates. In ANY other situation advantageous to them they would be pleading for a referendum to win an issue. “Let democracy speak” would be their refrain. Think MMP or gay rights and many other ‘causes’ which, knowing they would be likely to win would beg and plead for a referendum – but with the Treaty referendum “Oh no, we can’t have that, doing so will mean deaths and destruction.”
  
  It’s funny that when the NZ right has lost referendum they just accepted the result and carried in with their lives. No violence even considered let alone actually carried out.
  
  The hypocrisy is just puke inducing. Willie Jackson wouldn’t recognise a principle if he fell over one in the street. His position on anything is whatever he perceives as giving him advantage today and is totally irrespective of what he has said or done at any time in the past, including total 180’s.
  
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  November 6, 2023 9:59am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  What is it with well known Maori threating violence? Even JT.
  Is violence all they know? Going back to pre 1840.
  Time to dust off my Taiaha that hangs on the lounge wall.
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:16am
  - Ghost
    
    Listen to the people, there will be a huge uproar by a very small segment of Māori. Understand it’s coming and it’s not representative of Māori. Prepare for it.
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:23am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Once were Warriors.
      The biff is all they know.
      
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      November 6, 2023 2:28pm
- thirteenstars
  
  That sort of threat is exactly why the referendum needs to happen.
  
  But it’s the kind of thing that will cower Luxon & Co., they supposing they can play nice and “manage” their way through this, tinkering around the edges with Three Waters type stuff, never realising that Three Waters is just a symptom of a much deeper ideological problem within the civil service and education.
  
  This is the aspect Seymour understands, that this country needs a reset and the only way to give authority to that reset is to go to the people on this specific issue with a referendum, because simply winning an election where people vote on many issues is not enough of a mandate.
  
  This country needs a chance to speak on this one thing and speak clearly. Then let Jackson and his mob have a go.
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:27am
Inandout

Staying in Sydney CBD and have walked many streets around George St. There are Gaza pics plastered over many walls untouched. No Israeli pics but at least a gathering of blue and white flags at a rally on the steps of a building. The supermarkets are chukka with Arabs, Indians and Chinese in the majority. Then the returning Gazans at Sydney Airport joined an anti Israel chanting. Some good news..Dutton is leading over Albo in the polls.
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November 6, 2023 9:41am
- cmm
  
  The Gazan conflict is asymmetric:
  * Guerilla warfare is asymmetric.
  * The values of the people are asymmetric.
  * The rules of engagement are asymmetric.
  * The political game is asymmetric.
  * The PR battle is asymmetric.
  
  Heck, even the way posters are treated is asymmetric (it’s “ok” to rip down anything that might be considered Israel-supporting, it is not “ok” to rip down anything anit-Israel).
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:12am
  - Inandout
    
    Cmm, when Greeks and Italians settled in Australia there was assimilation into Oz culture. In all honesty I sense diversity will bring most of Aussie to its knees.
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:38am
    - sirknz
      
      The West’s altruism is what is leading to its downfall.
      
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      November 6, 2023 11:02am
  - kowtow
    
    Everything you say is true but ;
    
    demography is destiny.
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:39am
leoj

1) Willie Jackson needs to be told by Seymour and Peters that threats of violent protests re a referendum on the Treaty Principles, will only strengthen their resolve.
2) Luxon, who is against a referendum, will immediately be shown as weak by capitulating to Jackson’s threats.
3) The maorification of the country is the number one issue that must be addressed this term. Luxon needs a wake up about that.
4) Peters will do himself enormous good if he goes along with Seymour on a referendum.
5) Seymour and Peters both should tell Luxon to get a clue. put Jackson in his place and get on with a referendum.
6) The country needs to get this sorted, once and for all. Luxon’s reluctance is a sign of his weakness.
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November 6, 2023 9:53am
- Swifty
  
  Hear, hear.
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:02am
- All_on_Red
  
  There are no ‘Principles’ in the Treaty.
  There are only Articles.
  You are falling into a trap if you start debating or asking for a Referendum on the Principles. You will open a huge can of worms for Politicians to start framing the conversation. Then you will lose.
  
  What needs to happen is for it to be confirmed that there are no Principles to the Treaty. They are an artificial construct devised by Lawyers.
  There are only Articles and that all we need.
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:04am
  - cmm
    
    It will be argued that there are/were principles underlying the Articles of the treaty.
    
    In other words, the principles are WHY (the reasons) the treaty was made, while the Articles capture WHAT was agreed (ie. the outocomes).
    
    The problem with discussing principles (ie the WHY) is that different parties will have reasons for negotiating, they are seldom adequately recorded, and it is hard to know what the motivations were looking back over 100 years.
    
    To take a very simple agreement as an analogy: the transaction of buying a loaf of bread.
    The WHY of the transaction is that I want the bread to eat because I am hungry while the baker wants the money to pay his mortgage . Two completely different motivations.
    
    The WHAT is that I give him $5 and he gives me a loaf of bread. We “record” the agreement in a receipt. We don’t record eachother’s motivation (ie. the WHY) because we don’t care.
    
    So in 100 years someone might speculate on the WHY, but the WHAT is clearly documented.
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:29am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    It was Geoffrey Palmer who started this ‘Principles’ shit. With other additions there are over 30 Principles, but you are correct, they are nit ‘in’ the Treaty.
    
    Treaty did not establish any “principles”
    
    https://www.stopcogovernance.kiwi/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Treaty-Principles.pdf
    
    There are another 27 places at the bottom of the page.
    All shit.
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:30am
  - Cassandra
    
    Not correct. The Cooke “akin” needs to be dealt with. If you don’t establish what the principles are then some jerk will do it for you eg W Jackson.
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:31am
    - All_on_Red
      
      The problem is there are already Principles.
      Bad ones. And ones which are now slowly being pushed into Law.
      You might be able to change them but then how do you stop them being changed back later?
      No, there are no Principles at all.
      The Articles in the Treaty are about Sovereignty.
      Far better to have the Principles removed and let the Treaty stand as it is.
      
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      November 6, 2023 12:51pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Get rid of the ‘Principles’ and the whole Waitangi Tribunal including the James Freeman rogue Treaty. The original Treaty is needed.
        
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        November 6, 2023 2:32pm
  - kowtow
    
    ‘There are only Articles and that all we need.’
    
    The treaty is an anachronism , we don’t need it .
    
    The real foundation docs are the royal charter and letters patent .
    
    But they’ve been airbrushed from history.Deliberately .
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:37am
- krazykiwi
  
  Six ticks from me.
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:06am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  It seems David Seymour wants to bring a “Treaty Principles” Bill to Parliament.
  No mention of reverting from the rogue 1975 Waitangi Tribunal James Freeman version to the original in Maori and the Little wood translation in English from 1840. That is where we need to go. No “forestries and fisheries” means the ongoing Gravy Train will come to a screaming halt.
  No more koha.
  
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  November 6, 2023 11:13am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    By not abolishing the Waitangi Tribunal and the rogue post 1975 Treaty, then messing about with Principles is time wasting and irrelevant.
    Education first.
    https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/blog/the-treaty-of-waitangi-act-1975-was-a-dishonest-inaccurate-piece-of-legislation-here-is-why/
    
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    November 6, 2023 12:02pm
    - KH
      
      I would vote yes
      
      An Act Party proposal to enshrine what it says are the principles of the Treaty of Waitangi in legislation has strong support from the public, with 60 per cent of voters saying they would back the proposal if put to them in a referendum, according to a Taxpayers’ Union-Curia Poll.
      
      Just 18 per cent opposed the idea, with the remaining 22 per cent saying they were unsure.
      
      Significantly fewer voters said they wanted a referendum in the first place, with just 45 per cent saying they wanted a referendum on the idea, 25 per cent saying they opposed a referendum and 30 per cent saying they were unsure.
      
      Majority would support Act’s Treaty referendum, although voters unsure if they want to vote on it
      
      [Mod – please only include a small part of the article and link to the article]
      
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      November 6, 2023 12:42pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Strong support from the public?
        Only the two generations of public who have been lied to since 1975.
        Trouble is Te Pakeha does not know the history, and can’t be bothered.
        Maori Elite know how to milk this. We have been paying for the lies for 45+ years.
        
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        November 6, 2023 2:37pm
    - All_on_Red
      
      Agree, we need to go back to the 1840 version and stop the Principle nonsense dead or it will go on forever.
      
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      November 6, 2023 12:52pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Sensible comment. How many others are starting to think the same?
        
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        November 6, 2023 2:39pm
      - Rumblestrip
        
        Of course, but a sane approach is sadly lacking.
        
        I remember as a schoolboy in the late 1990s being interviewed by National Radio with five other classmates. They wanted to hear our vision for NZ in the new millennium. I commented that we should replace the treaty with a modern, colourblind written consititution.
        
        Come to air time, and there were comments from five kids – mine were all scrubbed out.
        
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        November 6, 2023 3:00pm
- James Stephenson
  
  Peters will do himself enormous good if he goes along with Seymour on a referendum.
  
  Seymour might do himself some good if he can be persuaded that a referendum isn’t needed. Just tweak the Bill of Rights to make it necessary for all legislation to comply with the equal suffrage clause and we’re pretty much done.
  
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  November 6, 2023 11:58am
  - MCōs
    
    What does *equal suffrage* mean?
    Any citizen/pr of any age can vote in any electorate they choose?
    BTW
    I wonder how many people live in one electorate and vote in another?
    
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    November 6, 2023 12:44pm
    - Fuzzysnuggleduck
      
      People who live overseas can vote so this is hardly an issue for democracy.
      Lefties try to point out that people who own property in more than one council area might vote for more than once council too – but this is also not really an issue, as they only vote once per local government region – same as anyone, and they DO have a registered interest if they own property in different jurisdictions.
      I am more concerned about people who turn up on the afternoon of an election and register and vote (which had issues facilitating the voting for the slow coaches time around).
      That suggests a low energy voter who can’t organise themselves in the years or months ahead. There is the odour of the lazy and the stupid in tandem with those – not really votes that I want to see cast at all IMO – and like a slovenly child turning up late for dinner, they should be turned away. Might even do them some good to learn that the world does not wait on their pleasure.
      
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      November 6, 2023 1:20pm
  - KH
    
    Happy to have Mod delete the above KH post. Cut n paste went wrong. Too late to edit. KH
    
    [Mod – it’s ok, I cleaned it up]
    
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    November 6, 2023 12:53pm
Maggie Pie

O.M.G. This is scary as well….

Israel’s Minister-of-Heritage has proposed dropping an atomic bomb on Gaza!

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1721070704806989884

(Probably best you don’t google ‘The Sampson Option’)
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November 6, 2023 9:57am
- Tauhei Notts
  
  What’s the Sampson option?
  Me singing Tom Jones’ Delilah?
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:27am
  - Ghost
    
    A bloody nightmare where Israel nuke their neighbours
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:36am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Could be.//
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:37am
  - Jake Dee
    
    Captured, blinded and humiliated, the mighty warrior Samson used the last of his strength to pull down the Philistine temple onto his own head killing everyone. (Book of Judges).
    basically, if I’m going down, I’m taking everyone else with me. Like a man surrounded in a blind alley fighting with a knife in one hand and a grenade with the pin out in the other.
    
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    November 6, 2023 5:52pm
- cmm
  
  He has been fired/stood down by the Israeli PM for making the comment.
  
  And that is the difference. If a Hamas person said that there would be dancing in the streets.
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:31am
  - Libertarians are right
    
    What do you mean “if a Hamas person said that”?
    It’s in their charter to murder all of the Jews. They wish they had a nuke to make it easy.
    
    Also, the guy said it’s an option (because of course it is, why have nukes if not as a threat to use them) but it’s far better to target what they care about.
    
    That made the Left crazy because obviously, they decided that Hamas etc care about their women and children, they don’t, not even a little bit.
    
    Hamas only care about their weapons and war infrastructure. Everything else only exists to fund and protect that.
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:44am
    - cmm
      
      Yup, Hamas would use a nuke in seconds even if it blew the whole of Gaza out of existence, because killing Jews is their mission – ahead of even being alive.
      
      All the humanatarian aid that flows into Gaza is first stripped for their terrorist activities (I refuse to call them military). Only the materials that are not going to help the cause are then shared with the people.
      
      Of course it is an option for Israel to use a nuke (or two), but it is still a dumb thing to say at a tense time like this – especially given the negative PR. If gives the Hamas side PR ammo to work with.
      
      Nukes are not a threat to people like Hamas. Being blown up for the cause gets a huge thumbs up.
      
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      November 6, 2023 11:23am
      - MCōs
        
        A number of dodgy countries possess nukes.
        India, Pakistan, maybe Iran, North Korea and so on
        Russia has threatened to use them against Ukraine
        This (ex)minister in the Israeli government has only been suspended. There’s some very dangerous people on both sides of the conflict over there. No wonder there’s no prospect of a resolution
        I remember the six day war of 1967. That was the last time I thought I understood the situation
        As the years go by the more I know the less I understand
        
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        November 6, 2023 1:19pm
      - cmm
        
        MCos, yes many dodgy countries have nukes, but none of them are as crazed as Hamas.
        
        Hamas is the only governing organisation that I am aware of who is completely obsessed with the destruction of another country and wiping out a nation. That is their one-line mission statement.
        
        If Iran wanted to nuke Israel they would give the bomb to Hamas, knowing that Hamas would happily nuke themselves.
        
        Of course the upper tiers of Hammas – those with some self-preservation instincts – sit happily in Qatar out of the way.
        
        If you were looking for black/white, good/bad stories then the Middle East is the last place you will find it.
        
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        November 6, 2023 4:03pm
    - Ra Henare
      
      Having done some reading on the subject ie Charter of Hamas.
      I find there are 2 versions. The 1988 version and the amended 2017 Version.
      To correct a common misconception about killing all the Jews.
      I reproduce the relevant item from the 2017 version.
      
      Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine.
      
      Such a shame that many commenters dont actually read anything of substance and seem intent on reproducing sound bites that support their prejudices.
      
      I am standing by for the vitriol from commenters that would confirm my observation.
      
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      November 6, 2023 3:38pm
  - cmm
    
    Ra. If you think Hammas would happily live alongside Israel then I think you are very mistaken.
    
    There have been numerous attempts to reach a negotiated settlement but Hammas has not played ball.
    
    Nobody wants Hammas. The Egyptians don’t like them either.
    
    If the 2017 text differs greatly from the previous text then it is safest to assume that is all PR.
    
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    November 6, 2023 4:08pm
    - Ra Henare
      
      Oh dear. You jump to some interesting conclusion.
      You obviously dont understand that International Politics is a 5d chess game.
      
      Remember back to the Northern Ireland conflict when many were saying the problem was unsolvable.
      
      Then leadership changed on both sides and what do we have today? No conflict.
      
      Maybe if the warmonger Netanyahu was removed(and he will be) and the leadership of Hamas changed (it did between 1988 and 2017 and will change again.)
      
      Then who knows what miracles might emerge.
      
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      November 6, 2023 6:51pm
- Cassandra
  
  And he’s been suspended by Bibi.
  
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  November 6, 2023 10:32am
Yvette

Sentencing of Four NZ Government Officials
Some of the comments, following the item, reveal more although I don’t see any participation bye Willie Jackson – yet

• David Prentis
 Hallelujah! The healing of this nation has begun spiritually and naturally this year. Let God’s justice come swifty and fully for the great evils done against NZ these many decades. May God’s justice shine with international recognition and support, that NZ may be seen as the rising sun for worldwide revival. Shalom!

• Cynthia Kernohan
 Excellent these politicians are devious and criminal who have caused masses of deaths seen almost every day in the Deaths Column of The New Zealand Herald with the shocking funeral notices of died SUDDENLY OR UNEXPECTEDLY OR SUDDENLY AND UNEXPECTEDLY. Absolutely heinous and according to Science and Specialist Doctors by 2025 there will be a Haulocost of deaths!

• Ripekatangi Georgina Job
Tena koe Quinton
We have served the last of the sentencing orders to the MPs. We are putting out a statement over the weekend which will deal with the question of enforcement and other matters around the use mRNA in our country, main issues of trial and a video.
https://govt.maori.nz/index.php/2023/09/29/sentencing-and-prosecutions-24-september-2023/
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November 6, 2023 10:39am
- Loddenthinks
  
  I take it you posted this satirically and ironically, and only linked to these delusional rabbit-hole nutjobs for context.
  
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  November 6, 2023 11:26am
  - Yvette
    
    Loddenthinks, indeed my intention was neither satirical nor ironic, but rather just aa information indicating the alternative thinking out there.
    But would now suggest this might be the type of mentality that Willie Jackson could dog whistle to – if one uses a term that he apparently has
    
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    November 6, 2023 11:58am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Stop Co-Governance. Julian Batchelor.

https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/blog/the-treaty-of-waitangi-act-1975-was-a-dishonest-inaccurate-piece-of-legislation-here-is-why/
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November 6, 2023 10:54am
Maggie Pie

Just been drying my hair and listening to Kerry Woodham.

That girl is seemingly sooo out of touch with the RE market. I heard her say something about …..”people will require a million dollar deposit to buy a house by 2045″

LOL!! There’s 6 properties for sale that we know of right NOW, that if you needed a bank mortgage you’d require a deposit of at least 3 0r 4 mil.

Just saying.
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November 6, 2023 11:10am
- mogg
  
  If bond rates keep falling and equities rising at their current rate, I will be at the front of the queue.
  Your ‘Ma’ will be pleased to see that BNZ are offering 6.2% for 12 months term.
  
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  November 6, 2023 1:26pm
Suze Wainwright

So Tamaki Makaurau’s new MP is a hip-hop expert – fantastic to see the cross-pollination of black/Latino marginalized culture adapted to tangata whenua tastes!
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November 6, 2023 11:19am
- MCōs
  
  So is Ish Sodhi and the new AB coach
  So what?
  
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  November 6, 2023 12:13pm
thirteenstars

“From the river to the sea.”

These two can’t name the river they are chanting about:

https://x.com/israel_advocacy/status/1718742999591456921?s=20

No doubt they both have tertiary degrees.
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November 6, 2023 11:20am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Even a dumbarse Kiwi like me knows what river – without the google machine.
  Do I get a tertiary degree for that?
  
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  November 6, 2023 3:20pm
  - thirteenstars
    
    It would do you more harm than good.
    
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    November 6, 2023 3:37pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Yes. No degrees for being able to weld upside down and inside out.
      Oh, and brazing, did I mention brazing? Not like plumbers and silfos. No copper – all tupperware plumbing.
      
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      November 6, 2023 4:31pm
campit

Kiwiblog humanity test: The indiscriminate killing of innocent men, women and especially children is morally indefensible and can never be justified.
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November 6, 2023 11:28am
- Jack5
  
  Can modern war be discriminable, given the use of rockets, aircraft bombs, drones?
  
  What if one side uses as shields “innocent men, women and especially children”?
  
  Was war ever discriminable? Consider the mass murder of the innocent by Genghis Khan, by ancient armies like the Romans and Persians.
  
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  November 6, 2023 11:54am
- BananaLlama
  
  On a planet with Nuclear Weapons? cool story bro we had best get some of our own.
  
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  November 6, 2023 11:57am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    We can’t even get Nuclear for electricity.
    Hear that you Green nutbars? “NUCLEAR NUCLEAR NUCLEAR!”
    
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    November 6, 2023 3:23pm
- mandk
  
  I agree.
  
  Hamas and their Iranian backers have a lot to answer for.
  
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  November 6, 2023 12:13pm
- Libertarians are right
  
  Yes, absolutely.
  And it’s undeniably Hamas’ fault in every way.
  
  You do realise that Hamas’ terror attack was an indiscriminate attack on women and children whereas Israel goes through incredible lengths to not kill innocent women and children right?
  
  Also, Hamas deliberately uses those innocent women and children as shields, deliberately putting them at extreme risk.
  
  Also, Hamas does this so that people like you will clutch your pearls and pull a Helen Lovejoy. Seriously, you’re being played by evil people who simply don’t care about their own women and children.
  
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  November 6, 2023 1:07pm
  - campit
    
    whereas Israel goes through incredible lengths to not kill innocent women and children right?
    
    Is this some kind of sick joke? You do realise that Israel has killed almost 10,000 Palestinians and injured 30,000? And rescued just *one* hostage so far? Journalists, UN workers, hospital workers – no one is safe from being targeted by Israel.
    
    This is not going to “incredible lengths”, this is indescribable human suffering. Netanyahu’s carpet bombing of Gaza won’t achieve the objective of eradicating Hamas or returning the hostages. It will be a total failure. And when that happens people on all sides will look back and ask how it all happened with such indifference.
    
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    November 6, 2023 5:46pm
    - NothingLeft
      
      So how many civilians and soldiers lives should Israel sacrifice to protect the Gazan population shielding the barbaric terrorists of Hamas – who are their brothers, husbands and uncles?
      
      The only way to win a war against guerillas is to make the population unwilling to support them. The only way that can be achieved is via violence. The Gazans and Hamas chose this war, knowing what the inevitable result would be, should they now be protected from the predictable consequences for their actions?
      
      Israel have tried 2-state, they have tried disengagement, they only tool they have left are eradicating Jihadists at intervals. Only long terms fix is annexation and deportation of Palestinians.
      
      Gaza will self destruct in next 10 years one way or another due to the Palestinian-created horror of overpopulation.
      
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      November 6, 2023 9:10pm
      - Jake Dee
        
        “The only way to win a war against guerillas is to make the population unwilling to support them. The only way that can be achieved is via violence.”
        
        False, straight up false.
        
        “When a man’s path pleases the LORD, he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.”
        Proverbs 16 7-10.
        
        I don’t expect you to consider that quotation just because it’s scripture but as it’s ancient Jewish wisdom attributed to Solomon, by reputation the greatest of the Jewish kings you might want to consider it from a historical and socio-political perspective.
        There have been plenty of times when a nation has colonized/conquered new territory and then had to deal with defeated tribes and surrounding hostile barbarians. The answer is to integrate them into your systems and make their lives better, so they want to keep you around. The Romans did it with the Britons and later the British did it with the Māori.
        Don’t say it can’t be done, Solomon did it.
        
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        November 6, 2023 10:14pm
    - Libertarians are right
      
      Israel is at war with Hamas yet gives evacuation orders etc before they drop bombs. No one else does this. It severely limits their efficacy in dealing with the terrorists but they do it anyway to protect innocent people.
      Hamas deliberately uses those same innocent people as human shields and sets up in zones that should be civilian safe zones. These are war crimes.
      Also – Hamas’ death toll includes the terrorists themselves and is an entirely made up number that includes deaths from their own misfires. Remember the hospital? The supposed 500 deaths are included in your 10,000.
      
      The sick joke is Hamas claiming that Israel is evil for killing innocent people when it’s Hamas that are shooting civilians that try to leave the bomb zones.
      
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      November 7, 2023 9:16am
      - Jake Dee
        
        “Israel is at war with Hamas yet gives evacuation orders etc before they drop bombs. ”
        
        By what law do they have the authority to give such orders? Is it the rule of Law (international law, common law, natural law of lord God almighty)? Or is it just law of the gun (those with the largest/most guns make the law and are your judge, jury and executioner)?
        If you order people out of their homes (you have 24 hours to get out of your homes or I kill you all) but assume no responsibility for the rest of their lives, then you are a tyrant.
        Rule of the gun is always subject to appeals and revisions because new guns and gunmen are being made all the time.
        
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        November 7, 2023 12:14pm
- mogg
  
  Kiwiblog stupidity test: who believes that innocent civilians, women and children gather around Hamas military installations by choice?
  
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  November 6, 2023 1:20pm
  - Fuzzysnuggleduck
    
    Kiwiblog naivety test: Who thinks that Hamas does not position themselves around or underneath sensitive targets like hospitals, schools and mosques, and in so cynically and cold bloodedly so as to extract maximum negative press on Israel?
    
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    November 6, 2023 1:35pm
    - campit
      
      You know the IDF headquarters is located in the middle of Tel Aviv right?
      
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      November 6, 2023 6:03pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  Kiwiblog immaturity/insanity test. Should a nation defend itself against totalitarian terrorists vowing to destroy the said nation and it’s inhabitants?
  
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  November 6, 2023 1:27pm
  - Ra Henare
    
    I presume you are inferring Hamas(a sector inside Palestine) desire to cancel the Israeli State.
    
    Of course you will be aware of a sector within Israel that have the objective of cancelling Palestine.
    
    So who is defending what from whom?
    
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    November 6, 2023 3:50pm
    - cmm
      
      “Of course you will be aware of a sector within Israel that have the objective of cancelling Palestine.”
      
      I am sure there are people in the Israeli population that would like to kill all Palestinians, just as there are likely some Maori that would like to kill all whites (or vice versa),
      
      But that is not Israeli policy. Indeed, Israeli policy is extremely careful about how they respond.
      
      Hamas fire unguided rockets indiscriminately into Israel. They have no control where they fall, just hoping Allah will pick a nice target.
      
      In contrast, every missile or bomb that Israel sends is controlled and aimed at a specific militarily significant target. Sure, they will sometimes miss, or poor intelligence will result in the wrong target being hit.
      
      Israel have never hit a rock concert packed with civilians. They don’t shoot up civilians for no reason at all.
      
      To try draw some moral equivalence because people die on both sides is ridiculous.
      
      I have never been to Israel, but I have been in the South African Army who had some similar activities in the townships. Counter to what some people might think, these were not indiscriminate. They were always careful in plan and execution even if just firing tear gas.
      
      In one exercise I was on, a black civilian was shot and killed by a policeman temporarily attached to the Army unit. He ended up being charged with manslaughter and was found guilty. That was the only death, or injury, from a whole two month exercise of a unit in the townships (and it was not caused by a member of the unit). Anyone who thinks it was a turkey shoot is wrong.
      
      Now obviously I am talking about a different situation with lower levels of conflict, but the restraint shown is common.
      
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      November 6, 2023 4:29pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        My Grandfather came to NZ before WW1.
        I wonder what it was like for him, being a farmer and cropper in Capetown?
        Never met him.
        
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        November 6, 2023 4:45pm
      - Ra Henare
        
        CMM
        
        “”They don’t shoot up civilians for no reason at all.””
        
        Thank you for the deep belly laugh.
        Plenty of examples of Israeli Settlers shooting civilians for no legitimate reason.
        
        Let me repeat. Both sides (like the Ukrainian conflict) have bad guys doing bad things.
        
        I deplore mass killings of Civilians of either side in a conflict.
        Yes there is a moral equivalence. Dead innocents are dead innocents.
        
        9,000 plus civilian’s dead in Gaza
        So your assertion would be
        So the Israeli rockets, bombs, tank shells
        , they will sometimes miss, or poor intelligence will result in the wrong target being hit
        
        Seems like the Israeli rockets, bombs and tank shells arent very accurate 🙂
        
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        November 6, 2023 7:00pm
      - mawm
        
        Steve – if it was anything like my grandparents and great grand parents lives it was hard. One was a farmhand and cropper in the UK. He moved to SA and became a mule drover transporting equipment and supplies from Durban to the Reef over perilous unformed roads.
        
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        November 6, 2023 7:06pm
- Fuzzysnuggleduck
  
  Yes.
  And in a conventional war it might be undesirable, but can justified to accept the deaths of innocents when they are unavoidable collateral damage of pursuing legitimate military targets.
  
  But to actually target civilians, and children or innocents proactively and as way of policy is terrorism. That is never acceptable; pure murder.
  Such people (terrorists) are themselves legitimate military targets.
  Terrorists are also reprehensible for hiding amongst civilians and risking (inviting?) collateral damage.
  
  Sovereign governments make cost/benefits decisions all the time, which put value on human life, whether it be funding for medicines, access to health care, locking down a country, or – in times of war – tradeoffs that are also in human lives.
  
  Hope this helps. 😉
  
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  November 6, 2023 1:31pm
  - cmm
    
    Hiding amongst civilians is against the Geneva Convention. So is using civilians as a shield.
    
    Deaths of civilians while engaging a military target are collateral damage.
    
    All the “war crimes” here are on Hammas’ side.
    
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    November 6, 2023 4:32pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Someone should tell the NZ Green wonks.
      
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      November 6, 2023 4:46pm
    - Jake Dee
      
      Hamas is not a party to the convention. there is an interesting disconnect here with people both requiring and then declining they have sovereign power.
      
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      November 6, 2023 6:02pm
- Jake Dee
  
  A pointless test with a loaded statement. With “indiscriminate” i.e. “without discrimination/judgement” already in it the moral decision has already been made.
  
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  November 6, 2023 5:58pm
- Tom Hunter
  
  Bombing your way to proportionality.
  
  Your comparison is not the first time it’s been made:
  
  I am not in a position to isolate this occurrence from the occurrences of 1943, 1944, and 1945 where with my own hands I took children and women out of the burning asphalt myself, and with my own hands I took big blocks of stone from the stomachs of pregnant women; and with my own eyes I saw 60,000 people die within 24 hours.
  
  That’s SS-Gruppenführer Otto Ohlendorf, head of Einsatzgruppe D, making his arguments at his war crime trial in 1948, that what he and his men had done in executing civilians was no different to Allied bombing of German cities.
  
  The judges made a point of specifically addressing this in their summing up:
  
  A city is bombed for tactical purposes… it inevitably happens that nonmilitary persons are killed. This is an incident, a grave incident to be sure, but an unavoidable corollary of battle action. The civilians are not individualized. The bomb falls, it is aimed at the railroad yards, houses along the tracks are hit and many of their occupants killed. But that is entirely different, both in fact and in law, from an armed force marching up to these same railroad tracks, entering those houses abutting thereon, dragging out the men, women and children and shooting them.
  
  Which is exactly what Hamas did.
  
  I also see some reference to the IDF HQ being in Tel Aviv. Fine, had Hamas attacked that and Israeli civilians had died in the crossfire I’d accept that.
  
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  November 6, 2023 8:43pm
  - Jake Dee
    
    These are all good points and I’m glad you’re thinking these things through seriously. if there are to be rules then they have to be applied everywhere equally. Other rules to consider are who may have weapons and of what sort and who may imprison people and under what circumstances.
    A lot of that will boil down to who has sovereign power and what responsibilities come with that.
    Then apply those rules to what’s happening now, what has happened previously and what the plan is for the future.
    If Israel only assumes the power of killing whoever they choose in Gaza but not also the responsibility for maintaining life in Gaza then it’s a tyranny and doomed to failure.
    
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    November 6, 2023 10:05pm
Bobba Fret

So surprise, surprise. Kelvin Davis has decided not to resign after losing his seat! Can we believe anything that comes out of his mouth?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/labour-deputy-leader-kelvin-davis-could-be-set-to-retire-as-te-pati-maori-claims-record-result/SS6E3V7OWFHHTATFTFSSTIIJPE/
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November 6, 2023 11:37am
- Suze Wainwright
  
  But he has so much more to give…
  
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  November 6, 2023 11:48am
  - Bobba Fret
    
    I can’t stop laughing about your comment! How am I going to get any work done now!
    
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    November 6, 2023 3:36pm
  - cmm
    
    I’m sure he hand in an expense claim every Monday morning.
    
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    November 6, 2023 4:32pm
- RoboRob
  
  I am stunned. Who would have thought that an opposition job on the benches on better than school principal salary would be appealing to him!
  
  Remember, Labours efforts in opposition last time. No effort on defining alternate policy, simply one liners to a compliant media. Pretty good money for nothing.
  
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  November 6, 2023 11:59am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    He thinks he is invisible because nobody talks to him………
    
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    November 6, 2023 3:25pm
- KH
  
  Kelvin Davis the racist. Who insisted that the political angle took priority over the actual safety of children at risk.
  He should not only resign, he should crawl back to Northland on hands and knees, apologising to every New Zealanders he passes.
  
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  November 6, 2023 3:21pm
ecco

If Seymour insists on having that referendum on the treaty principles he’s lost my vote next time round. I don’t like the division and co-governance stuff and a lot of it can be unwound without a referendum.

But I’m not for inciting a section of the population that are quite capable of using the referendum for a free for all of violent protests and disruption. That is ultimately going to infringe on me. I live in an area in Auckland where there are a lot of these fellas running around with ankle bracelets and it already doesn’t feel that safe out there any more.

People in the regions may not feel that unsafe but it is getting that way in Auckland with the ram raids/gang activity and general uptick in crime.

If there were resulting violent protest or protests, like the parliamentary occupation, that happened during the covid pandemic, then that will be Luxon’s problem, not Seymour’s. So I can understand Luxon’s stance on this.

It was not lost on me in that River of Freedom film that the maori were greatly over represented in the cross section of society that were drawn to that event and were using it to air their percieved grievances from the past. It seemed to me that there were two protests going on there and the anti mandate movement got hijacked by a section of the maori population.
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November 6, 2023 11:53am
- Yvette
  
  Ecco
  Even the Maori have a proverb that covers this context –
  If you want to pull up a kauri tree, do it while it is a sapling
  
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  November 6, 2023 12:43pm
  - cmm
    
    That sapling should have been ripped up over 140 years ago. How big is a 140 year old kauri?
    
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    November 6, 2023 4:39pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  There are no ‘Principles’ in the Treaty. Just ‘Articles.’
  
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  November 6, 2023 3:26pm
- cmm
  
  I agree with much of what you say, except that we can’t hide under our beds forever for fear we might upset some criminals.
  
  I am sure there would be protests. I am sure some would be violent even (eg. some cars being turned upside down and torched for foreign TV).
  
  But I don’t think we’d see full on BLM-style rioting. Most Maori know which side of the bread has the butter on. Don’t let a few noisy ones fool you into thinking that Maori stand as one man or such.
  
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  November 6, 2023 4:38pm
  - ecco
    
    No sorry, not willing to go through violent protests in my neck of the woods. The police are not equipped for this currently anyway. And it appears that violent protests are a growth industry around the world. They would turn into protests where everyone who was anti government would turn out. And there is close on half the population that did not vote for the centre right.
    
    Maybe in the second term of a centre right government you could try the referendum, when the police have been tooled up and Coster has been removed etc.
    
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    November 7, 2023 6:29am
- Hollyfield
  
  The activists will agitate regardless of whether there’s a referendum or a simple law change.
  
  The advantage of a referendum is that it lets the media and state sector bubbles know what the people of NZ actually want, and makes it harder for an incoming government to overturn.
  
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  November 6, 2023 7:19pm
NZer In Exile

Thoroughly debunked Climate Alarmist hypothesis again machine-gunned by real science:

CO2 Only Affects 10% Of IR In 3% Of The Troposphere.

https://notrickszone.com/2023/10/19/physicists-co2-only-affects-10-of-ir-in-3-of-the-troposphere/

Meanwhile willfully stupid/grifting leaders waste trillions destroying the prosperity and well-being of their electors.
16 2
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November 6, 2023 12:23pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  But what if you can see CO2?………
  
  6 2
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  November 6, 2023 3:29pm
Surely Knott

Melissa Lee is asking for a recount. Good on her. I think she’d be fantastic and it is close.

But I am aware of a local board candidate in a council election who was in 25 votes was denied a recount by the electoral commission. From what i recall they were told you had to have evidence that there was an error!?! There was also a large fee required at the candidates cost. The media published that he was going for a recount but not that he was denied or what the election services said.

I believe the law needs changing. And that anyone within a certain specified slim margin should be eligible to request a recount. And the cost of a recount should be public and on the election commissions page.

The law states:

1)
If any candidate has reason to believe that the public declaration by the electoral officer of the number of votes received by any candidate is incorrect, and that on a recount of those votes the first-mentioned candidate might be elected, he or she may, within 3 days after the public declaration, apply to a District Court Judge for a recount of the votes.
(2)

Every application for a recount must be accompanied by the prescribed deposit.
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November 6, 2023 12:31pm
- MCōs
  
  I would suggest that when the margin in so close, in this case 20 votes, there would already have been several counts & recounts
  One more is basically a Hail Mary unless there is a dispute over the way a ballot has been marked, or some such.
  Wouldn’t the cat be thrown amongst the pigeons if -20 went to +500!
  
  3 5
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  November 6, 2023 2:08pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Must be Labour Laws introduced behind our backs.//
  I have been waiting for this. Melissa Lee should go for a recount. Those who stop her must have something to hide.
  
  5 3
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  November 6, 2023 3:32pm
Maggie Pie

Meant to mention earlier how quiet it was around here last night.
The odd “bang” heard in the distance but nothing much at all after 9pm.
Makes me think Crackers might be on the way out.

Although I see there was yet another house fire in Mt Roskill.
They’re saying it was caused by fireworks.
No surprises there I guess 🙁
9 1
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November 6, 2023 12:46pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Money on the way out. Letting bangs off at 4am Thursday.
  
  4 2
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  November 6, 2023 3:37pm
- cmm
  
  I haven’t bought fireworks for a long time, but I thought crackers, per se, are illegal.
  
  4 0
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  November 6, 2023 4:41pm
- Inthe09
  
  The HNZ people at the top of my driveway were letting off skyrockets until midnight last night…. I was tempted to wake them up when I drove out to work at 5am, but they spend all day at home with the stereo thumping away so I guess they’d just have a sleep-in. One guess who paid for all the bloody fireworks too….
  
  How totally anti-social and clueless do you have to be to not realise you are keeping a whole neighbourhood awake – after subjecting them to 6 hours of ‘thump-thump’ base from a stereo all Sunday afternoon.
  
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  November 6, 2023 7:16pm
Jack5

Thousands of Central and South Americans in “caravan” convoys headed for the US border.

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/hundreds-leave-join-mexico-migrant-caravan-headed-us-2023-11-05/
6 1
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November 6, 2023 1:16pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  Apparently business lobby grifters like this because cheap labour.
  
  The (woke) left like this because they are in the main sheltered individuals who live in a brainwashing induced fantasy world and don’t rationally think through consequences.
  
  9 2
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  November 6, 2023 1:31pm
- Fuzzysnuggleduck
  
  Economic migrants should be turned back 100% of the time when they pass through an intermediate territory from their point of origin and/or engage people smugglers and/or bypass any united nations refugee registration.
  The fact that the Western nations dont have the will to manage their borders means that as nations they surely must cease to exist unless something calls a halt to this
  process.
  
  7 1
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  November 6, 2023 1:40pm
kiwikidsnz

“A new law is about to kill free speech and democracy in Australia”

https://www.rt.com/news/586569-free-speech-democracy-australia/

“It is noteworthy that the Australian Government is exempted from the proposed legislation. Hence, the content issued by the government is never to be considered ‘misinformation’ but criticisms of the government by ordinary citizens can. “
13 0
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November 6, 2023 1:53pm
- krazykiwi
  
  Orwellian.
  
  The road to totalitarianism always starts with the state censoring non-state voices.
  
  12 1
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  November 6, 2023 2:59pm
Master Mariner

You reap what you sow.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/siouxsie-wiles-v-university-of-auckland-threats-against-high-profile-scientist-played-to-court/PWNWS4UL5RHSTNDXXKTOVQI4PI/

Usefull idiot at the time and how the tables have turned.
Dunning Krugger poster girl.
23 4
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November 6, 2023 1:58pm
- Close Hen Counters
  
  Whoops I’m so sorry MM … downticked in error. 😢 I read the same article and snorted – what a loser
  
  14 2
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  November 6, 2023 2:46pm
- lifesgood
  
  Oh boo hoo, and who cares. She set herself up as an authority on something she knew little about. She went to the beach when no one else was allowed to. She dyed her hair pink to gain attention. For goodness sake, what did she expect?
  
  21 3
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  November 6, 2023 3:00pm
  - NothingLeft
    
    People who go to great lengths to adorn themselves in a way that is outside of norms are best avoided, they are desperate for attention and status, papering over empty and/or unworthy personalities. On the list: Weird hair styles and colours, impractically long nails, face/neck tats, silly shoes, ridiculous jewelry/adornment, odd clothing etc
    
    13 2
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    November 6, 2023 4:13pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  “pull back from public appearances regarding Covid 19.”
  Nope, there are cameras and mics – otherwise why the pink hair?
  
  ” A dedicated “monitoring email” was set up for her to forward abusive correspondence but it later emerged it was not monitored.”
  Well they knew she was full of shit. She was told that to divert her attention.
  
  Her supporters in the public gallery? We pay them to work!
  
  Apparently there was some money floating around to say things that supported the Labour control.
  Note, Hendy is in on the act too.
  Notice the light pink hair has now become a fluro pink?
  
  Part 2 next week. Let’s make a TV series of this.
  
  12 4
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  November 6, 2023 4:00pm
- Ghost
  
  No one deserves to be threatened
  
  6 1
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  November 6, 2023 4:50pm
  - Jake Dee
    
    Sure you have to consider the context, but No One? never?
    Governments do it all the time. What is maintaining a credible military deterrence if not an implicit threat?
    
    4 1
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    November 6, 2023 6:11pm
  - Taieri
    
    No one deserves to be threatened
    ————-
    
    Why didn’t she report those threats to the Police at the time they were made?
    
    3 0
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    November 6, 2023 6:58pm
Maggie Pie

Anybody else get the feeling Luxo has told Winnie to keep his trap shut?

Asking for a friend.
8 3
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November 6, 2023 2:06pm
- MCōs
  
  Who knows, but I doubt it.
  Mr L needs his seats otherwise he’s down the gurgler
  
  Imagine if Winston announced he would no longer negotiate with Luxon, but Maureen may be acceptable
  
  4 3
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  November 6, 2023 2:40pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Who’s Maureen, cossie? Do you mean Amanda??
    
    3 4
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    November 6, 2023 2:57pm
    - MCōs
      
      This Maureen
      https://youtu.be/m9wMxypH_Ac?si=1A3kwCxUlhtgyiBk
      
      3 0
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      November 6, 2023 5:02pm
      - Maggie Pie
        
        That’s not a patch on this tho Cossie…one of my personal faves 😀
        
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=namFjcOgHSE
        
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        November 6, 2023 7:32pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Baaaah! Classic MCos. That will sit Luxon on his arse for a think!
    
    3 3
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    November 6, 2023 4:28pm
- mogg
  
  The only one giving the MSM what they want is Seymour, he just can’t seem tokeep his mouth shut.
  If there was premier league of liars in parliament would Winston be in the top ten, he certainly wouldn’t be in the top half dozen. The current Queen of liars is off on a worldwide hugging tour.
  
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  November 6, 2023 2:58pm
Swifty

So, let me get this straight:

It is perfectly ok to bring in racially discriminatory laws and policies, favour certain ‘races’ over others in voting, health and education etc access, award certain citizens more funding and advantages according to their ancestry, invent more and new advantages to be accorded them almost monthly it seems – but oppose such behaviour and call for a public vote on such matters and it is YOU who is being divisive and unhelpful:

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/501775/national-leader-christopher-luxon-referendum-on-te-tiriti-would-be-divisive-and-unhelpful

One of the major objections I hold about ‘minority rights’ as Wayne Mapp labelled them the other day is that they keep changing, they keep sprouting, advancing and ballooning. It appears that if 20 years ago certain Maori articulated ‘Maori rights guaranteed under the Treaty’ they would list ‘xy and z’. If the same folk asked today what those rights are they would say ‘xy and z AND abcd and e’ and if asked in twenty years I am 100% certain they would say ‘all of the above and lmnop and qrs and t’.

There are rights being demanded today (because the treaty guarantees them, apparently) that no-one whatsoever has called for over the last 180 years. The reason for this is because they have only recently been made up! They are a modern fiction. A grift. A lie.

We’ve all read recently statements like “it is a treaty breach by the Crown that Maori have poorer health or are imprisoned in greater numbers – because the Treaty demands equity in all things….” What? The Articles say no such thing. Not even remotely close. But we are expected to swallow the notion that the so-called Principles demand such – as though all the Maori signatories had this in mind when signing. That ‘that is what they thought they were signing in the Maori version.’

I say that is an out and out lie. Even if we accept the Maori meanings of the Maori wording – nowhere can I see mention of equitable life outcomes anywhere. It is only recently when along come these nefarious ‘principles’ that we begin at see the rights and duties of the Crown morph and expand to now include vast privilege and advantage to Maori – over the rights of all other citizens.

I have said here many, many times – we are being openly lied to. I shudder at the thought of what some people will be calling for as treaty rights in 20, 30, 50 or 100 years time. I have no doubt whatsoever, none, that there will be ‘rights’ demanded and supposedly called-for and ‘guaranteed’ by the Treaty which absolutely none of us alive today or in our past will have ever thought about. We will be hearing them for the first time.

Here’s a few :

That Maori pay no income tax. That Maori effectively control who works in our civil service. That Maori operate under a completely different set of resource consenting requirements. That only Maori can officially represent us overseas (that one’s especially for you Wayne 😀). That Maori have their own police force and justice system. That half of all government procurement contracts, by value, must be awarded to Maori organisations. Te Ao Maori, Maori magic, Maori tikanga and Matauranga Maori is compulsory in primary and secondary schools.

Think I’m wrong? Just think what Maori and non-Maori New Zealanders of 50 or 100 years ago would think of what is being claimed as treaty rights today. I challenge anyone to mount the argument that this is an impossibility.

I can honestly say that I have immense goodwill towards my Maori fellow citizens. I want them to succeed in vast numbers in the home, in our schools, in our workplaces and everywhere else they close to play a role. Maori members of my own family have succeeded in large numbers both here and overseas. They haven’t needed the special
privileges only recently claimed as rights under an ever-changing Treaty industry.

All I see around us now is grift and plunder. People using the Treaty as a device to screw money, power and control from a population wracked in white guilt. None of us, or very, very few, have the guts and fortitude to stand up to this extortion and say “there are other ways to advance the Maori cause than by the creation of an ethno-state where we have multiple and racial categories of citizenship, rights and duties”.

One need an only cursory glance at the way Maori treated other Maori pre-contact to know these claims of ‘genocide’ and death and destruction of Maori by whitey is a fiction. A dangerously unbalanced fiction – and perpetrated to wring money and power out of contemporary New Zealand. Money and power which will accrue to only a thin slice of Maori, those already doing well, and with Hone and Kiri down on the farm, fishing boat, factory or abattoir seeing no change in their lives.

I say New Zealanders are being scammed. Scammed by grifters who are supported by willing dupes – either Maori who think there’s something in it for them or who are just suckers who will believe anything, or Pakeha dupes desperate to be seen to be doing the ‘right thing’ and to assuage their guilt for being a descendent of a coloniser.

Recently I saw a video of Ardern begging New Zealanders to vote Labour to ‘allow them to finish the job’ – having mentioned health, housing and poverty immediately prior. What? In the complete history of the twentieth century no socialist government had ‘finished’ anything. Not one. It is a joke to claim that in three or six more years Labour would have ‘solved’ anything. They haven’t in the last 100, why would a few more make any difference? What’s more likely is that at the end of those few more years the problems would be almost exactly the same, perhaps worse, but with a few more thousand civil servants, not ‘solving’ anything, rather merely ‘servicing’ the same problems and a few new ones.

I see exactly the same happening in Maoridom, the way we’re going – vast money and control going to a few select Maori and our social problems cruising along largely unchanged. And all the while the grifters claiming, just like Ardern, “just give us a few more years and a lot more money and we’ll get there.”

Well, I’m not falling for it and neither should anyone else.
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November 6, 2023 3:09pm
- Swifty
  
  You white mofos are going to pay:
  
  https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2023/05/nice_salaries_at_waipareira_trust.html#comments
  
  Pay us that is.
  
  6 0
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  November 6, 2023 5:13pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  “I see exactly the same happening in Maoridom, the way we’re going – vast money and control going to a few select Maori and our social problems cruising along largely unchanged.”
  So you see the Elite Maori are in a very slow Coup? Yes they are since 1975 and the Waitangi Tribunal.
  Keep it up Swifty – dam good informing rant!
  Have a look”
  www stopcogovernance.kiwi
  
  5 2
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  November 6, 2023 5:18pm
- Jake Dee
  
  All true points, but you can’t really tell the unprincipled grifters from the true believers. Everyone needs to eat and you will go over to where you can eat well.
  
  4 0
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  November 6, 2023 6:16pm
Swifty

The gentleman who has misappropriated hundreds of thousands of charity dollars and converted it into the direct funding of his and the Maori Party’s political war chest repeats the claim that the Treaty guarantees Maori equality of outcome.

https://www.thepost.co.nz/a/nz-news/nz-news/350104910/te-pati-maori-we-will-not-be-put-down-and-walked-over?utm_source=stuff_website&utm_medium=stuff_referral&utm_campaign=mh_stuff&utm_id=mh_stuff

He is incorrect. Some would say he’s lying. The Treaty guarantees no such thing. I certainly believe the Treaty guarantees the equality of opportunity (Maori becoming British subjects with the same rights and responsibilities as any others), but equality of outcome?

Horseshit.

A modern invention, by grifters.

Will none of our elected representatives stand up to this man and his deceitful rhetoric? This man is riding the gravy train and he has proven to us how he regards taxpayer money shovelled his way. He regards it as his personal cash, vast sums of which to be funnelled into his personal political campaigns and those of his grift at a national level – the Maori Party.

When I think of the, rightful, and recent court trials over political donations and compare the kid-glove way Tamihere has been treated, I believe there to be an enormous double-standard operating in our country.

Tamihere has just got away with a massive fraud – diverting charitable funds into personal and political expenditure; an act expressly forbidden in our charities legislation.

And this is the man who wishes even more power and control over our country’s direction and freedoms etc – and the funding to go with it.
18 1
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November 6, 2023 3:42pm
- Nickc2
  
  Don’t forget he and Willie Jackson are advocating violence should the current interpretation of the ToW be put to a referendum.
  
  14 1
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  November 6, 2023 3:48pm
- Blog-aholic
  
  Mr. T’s Waipareira Trust is about to get a certain commission heavily involved in its inner workings…..in fact I would go as far as to suggest his intestines are going to be probed deeply and it is not going to be that much fun. Then the IRD will have a go.
  
  As another more amiable Mr. T would say “I pity the fool.” (not).
  
  10 0
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  November 6, 2023 4:03pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Shame, JT was a guy who I liked. No more.
  JT and willie want a War, they are already instigating it with threats.
  Fuck you JT, I used to be a fan of yours.
  
  9 0
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  November 6, 2023 5:22pm
Jethrod

Have just come from The Herald website where they report that E tu is threatening FP Healthcare with strike action over payment of overtime at weekends.
Here we are with new Government and this labour party bovvaa boy outfit decides to start unsettling the workforce with strikes. Gone are their masters so need to justify their existence.
Perhaps Angry will go back and lead them.
12 2
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November 6, 2023 3:51pm
- Ghost
  
  ECE have announced a strike today
  
  Article
  
  Awanui Labs Are striking again, and good on them.
  
  4 0
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  November 6, 2023 3:59pm
Swifty

Labour’s starving our health system of funds while doling out billions to other areas has had repercussions.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/20-week-wait-for-30-day-mri-delay-leaves-southern-man-with-terminal-cancer/H27OCPIXZBANPCGW5D2WMIV2II/

Deadly repercussions.

Why isn’t the Left marching in the streets over this? Because this is acceptable collateral damage in seeing their political aspirations manifested and their political mates rewarded.
13 0
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November 6, 2023 4:49pm
Maggie Pie

Labor caucus overwhemingly bak Chippie to remaim as Leader.

– Newstalk ZB

LOL!! Who else thay got??
11 0
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November 6, 2023 5:58pm
- Ghost
  
  Kiri Allan? Oh wait
  Nanaia Mahuta? Uh wait again
  Michael Wood? Whoops
  
  Who’s left in labour? Has Grant retired yet?
  
  10 0
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  November 6, 2023 6:01pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Wot about the ‘Stats Minister’ from New Lynn….is she still there?
    
    😀 😀 😀
    
    6 0
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    November 6, 2023 6:15pm
    - Ghost
      
      She lost her seat, got in on list
      
      I guess she could buy the votes to be leader with kfc vouchers or tickets to the warriors games, but does anyone really want to see the warriors?
      
      4 0
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      November 6, 2023 6:32pm
      - Maggie Pie
        
        I saw a vid of her dancing in The House during QT once….
        looked as demented as a Milwaukee goiter 😀
        
        4 1
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        November 6, 2023 7:02pm
  - Jethrod
    
    Robbies still sniffing around……. likes a bit of trough
    
    4 0
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    November 6, 2023 6:29pm
Hugh Jarse

So judging by the rally in Auckland on the weekend and his non appearance today I presume that James Shaw has been deposed and the girls are in charge now ?
8 0
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November 6, 2023 6:33pm
Jethrod

Is there actually anyone who is new in this caucus and actually not tainted with the last 3 to 6 years? Perhaps they should get nod as the new leader
5 0
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November 6, 2023 6:36pm
Inthe09

‘Grifter’ should be awarded the word of the year for 2023.
2 0
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November 6, 2023 7:19pm
Ghost

Two interesting stories

Green MP Chlöe Swarbrick is under fire for using an inflammatory chant during a pro-Palestine rally at the weekend.

The Jewish Council of New Zealand says what Swarbrick said was anti-Semitic and is calling on her to explain herself.

Article

Vice President Kamala Harris’ stepdaughter, Ella Emhoff, has begun publicly raising money for Gaza – promoting a fundraiser on her personal Instagram account “supporting urgent relief for Gaza’s children” which is now absent from her profile.

Article
5 0
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November 6, 2023 7:20pm
Maggie Pie

Infant found dead in South Auckland earlier today.
Police are treating the death as… unexplained.

– StuffNZ

(“Don’t ask, BooBoo”)
5 0
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November 6, 2023 8:31pm
Inandout

I was amused to read the notice on the steps of Sydney Opera House that read ‘Smoking Strictly Prohibited’. It should have another sign ‘Anti Jewish Mob Allowed’.
3 1
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November 6, 2023 8:57pm
Ghost

‘Frightening’ footage of ‘fired up’ hate preacher in Australia calling for Jihad
0 0
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November 6, 2023 10:47pm

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