General Debate 12 November 2023

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Yvette

Referendum
… What David Seymour and Act are proposing seems reasonable and non-problematical.

They want a Treaty of Waitangi Principles Bill passed in parliament which would define the principles as based on the three original Articles of the 1840 document, or documents.

The Principles as laid down by Act are simple:
1 The Government has the right to govern New Zealand.
2 The Government will protect all New Zealanders’ authority over their land and other property.
3 All New Zealanders are equal under the law with the same rights and duties.

As Act has pointed out, no society has ever succeeded when differing political and societal rights are assigned by the circumstances of your birth. All good political movements have been about ending discrimination, not entrenching it.
___________

… What Act are proposing is long overdue. But if the Bill can go to the House and through a full Select Committee process, it can be discussed, debated, submitted on and refined. There are three years to complete the process before the final version is put to the people in a referendum in 2026.

… New Zealand is the oldest continuous full democracy in the world. We accept outcomes. Let’s put these undefined Treaty Principles to a democratic process and let’s see what the democratic outcome will be.
Until then, it is grossly irresponsible to suggest violence in response to a democratic process.
– Peter Williams
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/peter-williams-the-return-of-the-rant
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November 12, 2023 8:00am
- slightlyrighty
  
  When you look at the question as it is raised in an unbiased and dispassionate manner, and compare that to the response of Willie Jackson and the threats of violence, you have to ask why the media is not challenging Jackson more forcefully on this.
  
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  November 12, 2023 9:55am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    The media have brainwashed themselves over the last six years. To change would make them hypocrites.
    
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    November 12, 2023 10:06am
  - coge
    
    According to Jackson’s former wife, he doesn’t actually understand the treaty. And it’s a very simple document to understand.
    
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    November 12, 2023 11:52am
    - rouppe
      
      More likely chooses to disregard it.
      
      There was a Maori guy at a place I worked, this is about 8-10 years ago.
      
      He said to me once “if you really understand the Treaty, it clearly says we own the water”.
      
      I said “bollocks” and walked away.
      
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      November 12, 2023 1:47pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  First, people must educate themselves on the original Treaty – the Littlewood Draft, not the rogue Waitangi Tribunal version re-written by James Freeman along with Hugh Kawharu.
  
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  November 12, 2023 10:03am
- stewmar
  
  according to History.com…..
  The oldest continuous democracies in the world are1:
  United States of America (June 21, 1788)
  Kingdom of Norway (May 17, 1814)
  The Netherlands (March 29, 1815)
  Belgium (February 7, 1831)
  Kingdom of Denmark (June 5, 1849)
  Canada
  Grand Duchy of Luxembourg
  Australia
  
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  November 12, 2023 10:11am
  - CJames
    
    If you define democracy as all the people, including woman, as having the right to vote, then NZ was first.
    
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    November 12, 2023 10:27am
    - MCōs
      
      Inasmuch as we don’t have a vote on who is on the party lists, who represents each party in each seat or who are the party leaders democracy in NZ is fairly limited
      
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      November 12, 2023 11:17am
      - Swifty
        
        You’re right.
        
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        November 12, 2023 11:57am
      - rouppe
        
        Inasmuch as we don’t have a vote on … who represents each party in each seat
        
        Huh? Standing in a seat is inconsequential. It’s then incumbent on you to attract the votes. If you can’t then your standing for the seat is nothing.
        
        The biggest problem is that in most seats most people vote for the party the person represents, not the person.
        
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        November 12, 2023 1:54pm
  - Dave
    
    “…oldest continuous full democracy…”
    
    According to Wiki, “ New Zealand became the first nation in the world in which all women had the right to vote in parliamentary elections.” However, not till 1919 did they gain the right to be MPs.
    
    How fairly the four Māori seats reflected the Māori population of the time, I don’t know.
    
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    November 12, 2023 10:36am
    - Jack5
      
      Iceland is likely the oldest democracy, with the Althing (Parliament) dating back to 930.
      
      By the way, a reminder of where you can directly follow the pending volcanic eruption in Iceland. This report is 7.30 am NZ time today:
      
      https://en.vedur.is/about-imo/news/a-seismic-swarm-started-north-of-grindavik-last-night
      
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      November 12, 2023 12:15pm
Yvette

The issue of “co-governance” was shelved for the Election as being not ready nor perhaps not a vote-winner –

The Māori Development Minister is hopeful the authors of a draft United Nations’ Declaration Plan will have a proposal he can take to Cabinet when he meets with them on Friday.

In June a first draft was delivered to Jackson, but the minister never took it to Cabinet for consideration because he knew his colleagues wouldn’t support it.

At the time he told Newsroom he wasn’t comfortable with about 20 percent of what had been proposed and had asked the governance group set up to consult and draw up the plan to go back and try again …

In 2019, the Labour government commissioned an independent report, He Puapua, to consider how New Zealand might meet the requirements of the United Nations’ Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.

Once the draft plan is approved by Cabinet it will go out to the rest of New Zealand for consultation.
Māori were consulted first and the feedback received from the 70 hui across the country was used to inform the proposal.
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/cabinet-still-waiting-on-co-governance-draft-plan
FIRST PUBLISHED OCT 19, 2022 – so 389 days ago

So Willie Jackson acted as a filter on the response informed by the feedback received from the 70 hui across the country – he wasn’t comfortable with about 20 percent of what had been proposed – and asked the governance group … to go back and try again.

If we had an investigative msm journalism, would an official information request already have been made for a copy of the interim rejected draft plan, to inform the nation of what Maori really hope for and now may be dashed in Willie’s quashed 20 percent that he wasn’t comfortable with.

Of those Maori acquaintances who Willie says will “go to war” if need be, how many of those contributed to the 20 percent that Willie has asked be dropped or watered down?
It has been said “Love your enemies, for it was you who created them”
But who could that apply to – Willie or Willie’s acquaintances?
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November 12, 2023 8:03am
- Swifty
  
  So Jackson just went around the country asking for a Maori wishlist. A great way to massively ramp up unrealistic expectations.
  
  I’d also make the point that I’d be just as concerned with the ‘80%’ that Jackson says he’s comfortable with – the man’s judgement is clearly deeply flawed.
  
  I bet you the 80% will be full of expectations average New Zealanders think unfair, wrong or ultimately damaging. The 20% must have been plain extremist crazy talk.
  
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  November 12, 2023 9:11am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Swifty,
    Jackson’s consultation with maori, over 70 odd hui, sounds impressive until you ask the total number of attendees- less than 400 people turned up.
    That’s not 400 per hui.
    That’s the total number !
    What a failure he is.
    He says he speaks for maori.
    He does.
    Singular .
    One maori.
    Himself .
    
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    November 12, 2023 9:47am
    - Dave
      
      I knew last year that the attendance averaged fewer than seven and got the impression from a news report that many attendees were there by invitation only, rather than by general notification. If so, this is probably a policy being driven by a very small number of like-minded zealots.
      
      Do you, or anyone else, reliably know how these meetings were set up?
      
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      November 12, 2023 10:22am
      - leoj
        
        Julian Batchelor’s meetings were also by invitation and maori hated that.
        
        Hypocrites.
        
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        November 12, 2023 6:16pm
    - Lee C
      
      Ahh, IAR, you forget that Willy sees deciding issues based on the mere numbers of people who support any given thing as an unsophisticated kind of process.
      
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      November 12, 2023 11:14am
    - NothingLeft
      
      Who paid for that then? Sounds like basically an extended holiday tour of NZ with occasional sit down discussions with locals.
      
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      November 12, 2023 5:24pm
- Burtland
  
  the secret draft report rejected by Willie needs to be fully released for the nation to see what was proposed – “most transparent government ever”
  
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  November 12, 2023 9:54am
G152

Ive got a great idea.
How about those hospitals in Gaza surrender unconditionally to the Israeli forces to protect staff and patients?
Or is that to simple???
After all they claim that there is no terrorist tunnels beneath so what do they have to hide.
And why are the lights still on seeing that its been claimed that there is no power.
And ambulances are still arriving with people.
And fire engines are fighting fires with water that doesnt exist…..
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November 12, 2023 8:04am
- Ghost
  
  The Indonesian hospital has invited them to come and see there are no tunnels under the hospital.
  
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  November 12, 2023 9:31am
  - kowtow
    
    We’ll see .
    
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    November 12, 2023 11:27am
Yvette

“Co-governance”

Hon RODNEY HIDE: The ACT Party is both shocked and appalled to find itself supporting a Government that has covertly given recognition to the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. The declaration asserts that Māori have rights and privileges not enjoyed by other New Zealanders. The declaration is the very antithesis of ACT’s policy of one law for all New Zealanders. It is the antithesis of the policy that we should have one law regardless of people’s religion, their race, the colour of their skin, their ethnicity, their culture, or indeed their degree of indigeneity. The declaration is divisive and is a further step for New Zealand down the path towards being a divided nation. The declaration clearly splits New Zealand into two rather than bringing New Zealand together as one […]

I am very disappointed that the Prime Minister, John Key, has covertly foisted the declaration on New Zealand, and I consider the statement that the recognition of this declaration has no practical effect to be naive in the extreme. I am very disappointed that the Prime Minister has failed to honour our no-surprises policy, set out in the ACT-National confidence and supply agreement. [1]

Maori Affairs Minister Pita Sharples has flown secretly to New York for a speech to the United Nations signing New Zealand up to a declaration on indigenous rights [2]

Why the secrecy?

Pita Sharples –
Former Māori Affairs Minister Pita Sharples reflects on New Zealand’s decision to support the UN Declaration of Indigenous Rights after initially opposing it for three years.
In April 2010, the New Zealand government officially supported the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, after opposing it for almost three years. I had the privilege as New Zealand’s Minister for Māori Affairs to announce the historic endorsement at the United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues, in New York.

Finally, we got the word: ‘Yes it’s okay, but don’t tell anyone.’ They thought that the headline ‘Māori Affairs Minister Pita Sharples has flown secretly to New York’ sounded good.

… I was lucky to be a part of that, but it was because of the people outside of New Zealand, pushing the Declaration they had all been working on. I was lucky to be the one in a position to persuade the government, and to go to the UN to make the announcement. But why did I have to secretly sneak out and do it? Why was it not planned, and why was the whole of New Zealand not jumping up and down and proud that we were going to sign the Declaration? [3]

So still, why the secrecy?
Is there a journalist with the guts to ask Sir John Key?
Why did I have to secretly sneak out and do it? – Pita Sharples
Was it a fear that The declaration clearly splits New Zealand into two rather than bringing New Zealand together as one – ACT [1]
_____________________
[1] Hansard: Ministerial Statements — UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous People – Sitting date: 20 Apr 2010
https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/49HansD_20100420_00000071/ministerial-statements-un-declaration-on-the-rights-of
[2] https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/3599153/NZ-does-U-turn-on-rights-charter
[3] https://www.thebigq.org/2018/07/16/was-it-worth-it-pita-sharples-reflects-on-the-un-declaration-of-indigenous-rights/
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November 12, 2023 8:10am
- kowloon
  
  United Nations’ Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.
  NZ was, long before this declaration was formulated, giving Indigenous people of NZ all the same rights as one and other. Education, freedom of assembly, right to practice a chosen religion, elect MP’s, choice of employment, health care, freedom to travel, access to a safety net in times of hardship.
  The only thing asked of the people was that they co-operate, and live in harmony. Not that hard to understand really. Seems to be beyond a number of small activist groups, and our media.
  
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  November 12, 2023 9:55am
  - Don Beckett
    
    There are NO indigenous people of New Zealand – Maori came here in the 13th.century so they are immigrants, the same as all New Zealanders. I have no problem with “First Peoples” – or something like that – because its true, as far as we know. However, that still does not give them entitlements above other New Zealanders as per the Treaty of Waitangi. (the proper one)
    
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    November 12, 2023 10:51am
    - imalwaysright
      
      Don,
      
      Correct.
      
      If maori are considered indigenous then all people born in New Zealand must also be considered indigenous.
      
      New Zealand born New Zealanders have no other country to call home.
      
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      November 12, 2023 12:18pm
    - kowtow
      
      “First” still confers an implication of primacy .And is done deliberately for that reason.
      
      No place for that in a modern , egalitarian democracy.
      
      Besides the “first” people who came here are long dead and have no relevance to us here and now , beyond some historical ruminations.
      
      One could make a case for the “First people to introduce democracy” or any number of other firsts .
      
      It’s all political social engineering in intent and so is highly divisive .Best avoided.
      
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      November 12, 2023 1:56pm
    - rouppe
      
      One of the things I find curious is the ubrupt disappearance of any history prior to the arrival of the great Waka.
      
      Where did they come from? All we get is Hawaiiki. Which isn’t Hawaii. It’s some mythical Atlantis-type place. No one knows where. No ones seen it. So they must have set off from somewhere else. Where? Why is there no “knowledge” passed down about that?
      
      Why did they leave? Somewhere warm, with plenty of seafood. It would have been a huge undertaking. Where did the trees large enough to make those Waka grow? Surely that must limit the options?
      
      Maybe there was a group of radical youth there that were so much trouble the rest of the community exiled them. Who knows? You’d think this was such a monumental decision there’d be something in the oral history.
      
      But, nothing.
      
      Am I the only one curious about that?
      
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      November 12, 2023 2:06pm
      - herb1
        
        Simple. When you have no written language and your history is only passed down by the telling of stories, it’s easy to get it wrong and easy to ignore bits you don’t like.
        Go to the pub on Friday night and the following day remember all you were told. Then talk to the mates you spoke with and see how widely different your memories are
        
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        November 12, 2023 3:36pm
    - Ghost
      
      I remember as a kid every Friday the local iwi would come put a hungi on for our tourists. They would talk about the stories that were passed down to them of the people who lived there before them.
      
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      November 12, 2023 2:20pm
- Grumpy Silver Haired Female
  
  The definition of indigenous: originating where it is found; as defined in various dictionaries, clearly excludes all of us who live in New Zealand. None were other than settlers. The entire debate centres on misinterpretation of the word indigenous. I applauded Winston Peters for stating this during the election. We are all, at some level, immigrants or settlers, whatever our genetic or cultural heritage.
  
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  November 12, 2023 10:40am
  - Yvette
    
    DEFINING “INDIGENOUS PEOPLES” – the United Nations
    “Indigenous communities, peoples and nations are those which, having a historical continuity with pre-invasion and pre-colonial societies that developed on their territories, consider themselves distinct from other sectors of the societies now prevailing on those territories, or parts of them.
    
    Obviously the definition used by Jackson, Tamahere, Davidson et alia
    
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    November 12, 2023 10:51am
    - Cinematic
      
      Presumably rats, stoats and pigs are indigenous too then.
      
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      November 12, 2023 11:31am
    - Eugene
      
      Maori were the first colonists, so not indigenous under that UN definition either.
      
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      November 12, 2023 11:37am
      - leoj
        
        Murdering colonists that wiped out and ate the morioris.
        
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        November 12, 2023 6:19pm
      - ISeeRed
        
        @leoj Chatham Islands. Look it up.
        
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        November 12, 2023 6:48pm
    - rouppe
      
      But they were also colonists. They also invaded the land.
      
      The oral history of violence, conquest and slavery suggests if there HAD been anyone else here they would have been over run.
      
      There is no difference
      
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      November 12, 2023 2:09pm
    - herb1
      
      Yet these same people call Israelis colonists even though they arrived in Israel about 1300 bc.
      A bit earlier than Maori
      
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      November 12, 2023 3:58pm
  - Paulus
    
    Try looking up the word “Aboriginal” as you will see where it applies (not only to the Aboriginals in Australia who have been there 50,000 years.)
    
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    November 12, 2023 2:19pm
- Jack5
  
  Agreed, John Key sparked huge, continuing division in New Zealand by going along with the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.
  
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  November 12, 2023 12:19pm
  - ISeeRed
    
    This chameleon “We’re totally not Labour! Honest!” streak is in the very DNA of the National Party.
    
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    November 12, 2023 6:51pm
Bridgenag

Events on 15th November at 12.–

Vaccine injury takes many forms, and this year Red Remembrance Day highlights the importance of talking about it openly in its many insidious forms. Look at
RedRemembrance.co.nz for details
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November 12, 2023 8:14am
- Master Mariner
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZaKnspVFno
  
  Interesting comparisons.
  
  “Discussion with Professor Augusto Zimmermann is the Head of Law and Professor at Sheridan College in Perth, Western Australia, and Professor of Law (adjunct) at the University of Notre Dame Australia, Sydney campus. In addition, Dr Zimmermann is a former Law Reform Commissioner with the Law Reform Commission of Western Australia (2012–2017). He has also served as Director of Postgraduate Research (2011–2012 and 2015–2017) and Associate Dean, Research (2010–2012) at Murdoch University School of Law. “
  
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  November 12, 2023 1:02pm
peterwn

See:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/133276725/protest-group-believe-they-were-let-down-by-auckland-transport-security-and-police-over-alleged-assaults

The train station security people are there to make things safe for passengers and stop batwing hoppers. They are not there to protect protesters.
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November 12, 2023 8:15am
- kowtow
  
  Train stations aren’t there for hosting protests , they’re there for the convenience of the travelling public.
  
  The pro terror little shits should be trespassed.
  
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  November 12, 2023 9:17am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Kow,
    
    That’s right. I wonder if there is anything in the terrorism act about interference with the transport infrastructure ?
    
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    November 12, 2023 12:21pm
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Banned from public transport for 6 months
    
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    November 12, 2023 3:26pm
    - Ghost
      
      In Auckland isn’t that how often the trains are down for track maintenance?
      
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      November 12, 2023 3:29pm
- Swifty
  
  I wonder if these protestors were among the very people who took advantage of lax policing and ambushed and assaulted women at the Posie Parker rally?
  
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  November 12, 2023 9:35am
- Handyman
  
  The left have no self awareness. They chant “Stop the hate”, “Kill the Jews”.
  
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  November 12, 2023 10:36am
- Sacha
  
  Whatever happened to the Police rounding up those who ‘disturbed the peace’?
  I wouldn’t mind seeing them back in action.
  
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  November 12, 2023 1:27pm
- ISeeRed
  
  Phew, that was close! I nearly clicked on a Stuffed link!
  
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  November 12, 2023 6:53pm
slightlyrighty

To all those who are protesting at the loss of innocent lives in Gaza, I have a question.

When 300000 innocent Muslim lives were lost in Yemen at the hands of Muslims and 250000 innocent Muslim lives were lost in Syria at the hands of fellow Muslims, where were you then?

Is it about the lives lost? Or who is doing the shooting?
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November 12, 2023 8:16am
- kowtow
  
  Did they march for the black African Christians of Darfur , genocided by Muslim ‘Arabs’ .
  
  or the long suffering school girls of Nigeria .
  
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  November 12, 2023 9:20am
  - ISeeRed
    
    It was originally boys in Nigeria being massacred but they switched to girls as the international media didn’t care to report it. Another example of male privilege.
    
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    November 12, 2023 6:54pm
- ClanMcleod
  
  Well unlike the war in Gaza/Israel, the mainstream media isn’t giving us wall to wall coverage of events in Yemen. Or any other conflict zone for that matter.
  
  The vast majority of people have no idea where Yemen is or what the conflict there is about. Why is that? Why does all mainstream media apparently focus on the same narratives at the same time?
  
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  November 12, 2023 9:22am
- Nickc2
  
  That’s Tribalism for ya and it’s coming to a place in the South Pacific 0nce known as New Zealand like it or not.
  
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  November 12, 2023 9:25am
Flossie

If I was a young rape victim I’d be furious that the perpetrator did not go to jail, yet a protestor who hurt nobody has to be imprisoned. Weird logic from our courts.
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November 12, 2023 8:22am
- sirknz
  
  It is the system sending a message.
  
  Whether you like the guy or not, the powers that be are showing you what will happen to you if you dare to go against their wishes.
  
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  November 12, 2023 10:44am
- info@cruzpro.com
  
  Sorry, accidental downtick. I agree with you.
  
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  November 12, 2023 1:35pm
Chuck Bird

The Radicalisation of Parliament
Posted on November 11, 2023
By Dr Muriel Newman

https://www.nzcpr.com/
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November 12, 2023 8:23am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  NO!
  “Opposition parties are desperate to prevent the new government from exercising the mandate they have been given by voters to restore democracy and remove all traces of tribal rule and He Puapua from our statutes. Attempting to intimidate and bully the new Prime Minister – and the public – into submission is their strategy.”
  
  If this happens, Maori will just do it again.
  
  ““Over the last twenty years the tribal elites began inventing arguments that under the Treaty of Waitangi Maori were entitled to more and more from the taxpayer. A growth industry in Treaty fiction emerged. Before long, a 1987 Court declaration that the Treaty of Waitangi was ‘something akin to a partnership’ between Maori and the Crown developed into a call for a 50-50 split in governance over all resources, despite Maori numbering barely 17% of the population.”
  
  The Treaty has to be binned, and we revert back to the origin Littlewood Draft.
  If something is not done Maori will push and push for more and more.
  The Net Taxpayer can not sustain the constant and increasing debt to Maori.
  Willie Jackson, John Tamihere, Rawiri Waititi, and the rest need to be put in their places. Threats of violence are just typical of Maori when there is no more debate. Enough is enough.
  
  No doubt Julian Batchelor and Stop Co-Governance will pick up on this.
  
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  November 12, 2023 8:49am
  - Chuck Bird
    
    Steve, referring to all Maori is just as bad. There radical activists Maori are a minority. The should be condemned not all Maori.
    
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    November 12, 2023 8:53am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Of course all Maori should not be condemned. I was referring to the radicals, the protesters, and the Elite. I should have made it clear.
      Muriel Newman’s item got me a bit hot under the collar. Apologies to all.
      
      A Treaty referendum at this time could backfire (see Stop Co-Governance post)
      The general public must read and understand the original, then compare it to the James Freeman Waitangi Tribunal rogue version.
      A referendum means a vote. One can not vote if they don’t know what they are talking about.
      Co-Governance is a nice name but that is all. It does not mean what it says.
      Appointed positions with the power of Veto is not Co-Governance. Come on people – LEARN!
      
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      November 12, 2023 9:05am
      - Grumpy Silver Haired Female
        
        The definition of indigenous: originating where it is found; as defined in various dictionaries, clearly excludes all of us who live in New Zealand. None were other than settlers. The entire debate centres on misinterpretation of the word indigenous. I applauded Winston Peters for stating this during the election. We are all, at some level, immigrants or settlers, whatever our genetic or cultural heritage.
        
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        November 12, 2023 10:44am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        @Grumpy S H F,
        Yes, this is yet another argument, that makes some angry.
        
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        November 12, 2023 11:54am
      - Dave
        
        The definition of indigenous: originating where it is found; as defined in various dictionaries, clearly excludes all of us who live in New Zealand.
        
        OTOH, I was born here, as were my parents, as were (I think – I’m a bit shaky on family history) three of my grandparents. That sounds like originating here.
        
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        November 12, 2023 12:24pm
  - pdm
    
    Steve and Chuck.
    
    As big a danger as elite Maori activists are there are another group of equally dangerous Treaty Activists.
    
    These are the ` lilly white’ activists who do not have a skerrick of Maori blood who have aligned themselves to the maorification of New Zealand band wagon. These are very dangerous people pushing an agenda simply because they can.
    
    Most of these people seem to have an affiliation to the Green Party – certainly one that I know quite well is very active in Hawkes Bay branches of said Green Party.
    
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    November 12, 2023 9:04am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Correct. I have seen the activists in action.
      I was at the Stop Co-Governance meeting at Orewa.
      The Police did nothing. Even they are intimidated by the activists.
      
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      November 12, 2023 9:08am
    - Philview
      
      I agree, the extreme left wing activists are manifesting all across the West. In New Zealand they are using the Maori cause as a wedge, in other countries the same type of people are using different causes to progress to the same anti democratic, anti capitalist goals.
      
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      November 12, 2023 9:37am
  - Positan
    
    The 3rd Treaty “settlement” should also be “binned.”
    
    It was never justified – it has never remotely extended to all Maori – and those Maori elites who have benefited hugely from the donations are, in so many cases, using the gifted monies and property as a lever to extort more and more.
    
    Bin the 3rd “settlement” and recover all the property and monies donated by the state WITH INTEREST.
    
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    November 12, 2023 9:29am
- Ra Henare
  
  Thanks for the link Chuck.
  I always thought Muriel was a freedom of speech supporter.
  
  This article demonstrates that she is not.
  
  I guess caught up with the current emotional overflow from the middle east conflict.
  
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  November 12, 2023 2:35pm
bennerg

There appears to be an increasing attack on our democratic way of life in so many ways. One of them is individuals appointed to positions of power making decisions (aka calls) without referral to their organisation, and adherring to accepted processes to ensure that decisions, and messages sent reflect the committment of the organisation and it’s people, not just their personal opinion.

Three that hit me this week:

1. In the Western Bay of Plenty, the Council sent a submission to the Government, authored by the mayor himself, in regard to the handling of land expected to be inundated by sea level rise due to “climate change”.

The Submission was not approved by Council, and included the radical suggestion that those freehold landowners in locations designated to be inundated in the future would have their land converted to a 99 year lease with the Crown becoming the owner with no recompense. He however also called for Maori lands to be compensated by the Crown and for Maori owners to “develop their own approach”.

This compulsory acquisition recommendation was not put before councillors, and a vote to approve it in hindsight reached an equal vote (some councillors were not present) and the Mayor used his casting vote to pass it. The Mayor stated “That is my role as Mayor, as leader of this council to make that call”. Where have we heard that same phrase before?

2. As reported in another KB post today, Nanaia Mahuta while Minister of Foreign Affairs, made the call to override the text of the response to the Hamas attack on Israel, and in so doing failing to criticise the terrorist Hamas organisation.

3. A more obscure one, but a friend in the IT business has for a while complained about the adoption of Maori protocol and Te Reo in meetings and communications emanating from the Institute of IT Professionals (This group used to be the NZ Computer Society). It seems this change in operation was adopted when a new President (Anthony Dowling) was elected recently. At a recent AGM the matter was raised and it seems a number of the members have been objecting. Instead of accepting that the change of protocol from Western to Maori was handled badly, not discussed before it’s adoption, nor voted on, Dowling got stuck into those members objecting calling them “outright racists”. Seems to be another appointee making “a call”. I’d watch out for a kiwi version of “Revenge of the Nerds” on this one.

It seems that the precedent set by Jacinda Ardern in “making calls” (eg. Taranaki, Christchurch) has infected our society. Any leader can now safely make decisions on their own, without due process and seemingly get away with it.

Democracy as I understand it at all levels requires consultation and moving the group, as a group, and as the group decides. Not arbitrarily making “presidential” decisions that bind everyone else on the basis that “they” know better.
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November 12, 2023 8:26am
- Burtland
  
  Is the compulsory confiscation of land, expected to be inundated under RCP8.5, the next move in the climate agenda by the Crown?
  
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  November 12, 2023 10:20am
  - Handyman
    
    Hopefully someone in National will read the latest IPCC6 report which re-rates the RCP8.5 “business as usual” scenario from “highly likely” to “highly unlikely” (actually implausible). The “business as usual” scenario assumes eg a 500% increase in the mining transport and burning of coal.
    
    Local councils in New Zealand use the RCP8.5 scenario, now debunked by their IPCC, for urban planning.
    They should revise their plans, but won’t.
    
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    November 12, 2023 10:51am
KH

Don’t listen to Violent Willie’s distortion.
It’s better to know that it’s not a referendum about the treaty. It’s a referendum about the principles.
I can’t see how anybody could vote against the three items listed in the article below (but of course some will)
https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/peter-williams-the-return-of-the-rant
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November 12, 2023 8:37am
- Taieri
  
  It’s a referendum about the principles.
  ————-
  
  It’s a referendum about the contemporary role of the Treaty in the constitution of NZ, not about its principles. Principles can’t be established by a referendum, they either exist or they don’t. And if they exist, they are evident. At the best they can be reaffirmed, at the worst they can (and often are) abused. The Treaty was entered into to address and resolve issues present in NZ at the time of its signing, the issues that have been resolved since and no longer exist. While the Treaty can be considered the country founding document, its value today is mostly historical.
  
  As to the real meaning of the Treaty, “The Treaty of Waitangi An Explanation” by Sir Apirana Ngata should be a compulsory reading not just for all politicians and members of the judiciary, but should become a compulsory part of curriculum in all NZ schools. Sadly, this is not going to happen…
  
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  November 12, 2023 9:34am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Stop Co-Governance. Julian Batchelor.

When you add up the percentage of the vote Labour, the Greens and Te Pati Maori received in the election just past, it’s frightening to realise that 40% of the voting public are either a) still not awake to the reality that radical / elite Maori are on the move, and well under way, to taking over the entire country or b) are awake and actually on board with the takeover. Hard to believe, but this is true.

https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/blog/why-the-next-three-years-is-going-to-be-the-roughest-yet-for-new-zealand/
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November 12, 2023 8:52am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

At least we are not this mad in NZ (I hope)

https://patriotnationpress.com/umm-ok-a-woman-who-married-a-giant-rag-doll-is-threatening-divorce-after-he-cheated-on-her-with-another-2/
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November 12, 2023 9:23am
- Jethrod
  
  So what are the ragdolls pronouns, in fact what are hers?
  
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  November 12, 2023 9:42am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    I don’t think she knows what a pronoun is.
    3 children – how did she get pregnant?
    Must be on drugs.
    
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    November 12, 2023 11:56am
    - Ghost
      
      Ummm
      
      Not sure how to tell you this. The children are rag dolls.
      
      She’s created something different to push herself on the internet and get the publicity, good for her. Some guys just put a dress on and pretend to be a woman to get internet fame.
      
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      November 12, 2023 12:41pm
alan

Israel talking to Gaza Hospital https://t.me/beholdisraelchannel/22694
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November 12, 2023 9:26am
Pineapple Lumps

The Empress’s New Clothes

You will all recall the tale of the Emperor who is taken in by charlatans and fooled into wearing a non-existent suit of finery. His closest advisers, afraid to offend the Emperor or perhaps unwilling to admit that they can’t see the fine clothing that he is wearing, create the perfect environment for the fraud to be perpetuated. Eventually this leads to the Emperor wearing his fine suit out on a royal procession for all his subjects to see him in his finery. At some point during this parade a small child pipes up loudly and exclaims “Look the Emperor is not wearing any clothes”. This leads to a rapid breakdown in the delusion and the crowd is engulfed into fits of laughter.

This new telling of the story, involves a rarer form of ruler — The Empress — but is the same tale right up to the point of the child’s exclamation. “Look the Empress is not wearing any clothes.”

The state media broadcaster begins announcing “nefarious international alt-right and extremist groups are spreading misinformation and disinformation about the Empress.” “Furthermore a group of conspiracy theorists — the Anti-Fashionists —
have been taken in by these ridiculous ideas.”

The Charlatans are contracted by the Empress to make everyone a suit of finery. All of the citizens must have one of these suits. Those not wearing the fine suits are known as the Anti-Fashionists and are not allowed to go to cafes, restaurants, sports games, swimming pools, hairdressers, travel freely around the country. If they are in a Government job then they are fired. Many of the citizens can see the fine garments are a scam, but frightened they will miss out on a flat white with their friends, they start wearing them anyway.

A large group of Anti-Fashionists aka people not taken in by the delusion, protest outside the Empress’s government buildings. The Empress refuses to talk with them — she claims they are violent and want to hurt her. She forbids the other Government officials from talking to them too. The people living around the Royal Court start complaining – these protesters are filthy and harbingers of disease as they refuse to wear the finest clothing in the land. Their protest is annoying. Eventually the Empress calls in her Captain of the Guard, Sir Costalot, I insist you move the riff-raff along. So Sir Costalot and his troops disperse the riff-raff to the four corners of the land.

The Empress sets up a new organisation called The Dissing Project. They work tirelessly to pump out statements showing that anyone disagreeing with the Empress is a loony, or terrorist in waiting. They identify that people who value families are alt-right.

Winter comes to the country. People in the Empress’s clothing begin to die. The Empress doesn’t notice, the heating in the palace keeps her nice and toasty. But more citizens become disgruntled. Signs start popping up with anti-Empress messages. Whenever the Empress travels the land her visits are no longer full of smiling subjects who love her, there are protestors and people who don’t like her. The Empress gets hurty feelings, she feels sad and stops visiting her people, except for schools where the children all still love her.

However this takes a toll on the Empress and eventually she decides she will take her fine clothes and head to places far away where they still love the sound of her voice as much as she does.

With the Empress gone, the people of the land feel a great burden lifting. But there are still pockets of disturbia in the land. The Dissing Project is still running. Most people have gone back to wearing clothes but the odd pocket of citizens loyal to the Empress keep wearing their fine clothes – they still believe they are superior to the riff-raff. The judiciary continues to prosecute the leaders of the riff-raff and the State Media continues to broadcast the Empress’s official lines. Here is one of their statements from The Herald today:

“Much of the material relies on discredited theories that argued governments across the world followed bad science to exert control on populations with the aim of manipulating their movements and limiting their freedom.”

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/billy-te-kahika-on-covid-19-protest-prison-sentence-i-shouldnt-have-to-go-to-jail/7MNYLHBQLRCGNBIA5JJCKS3MYI/

When will the fairytale end?
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November 12, 2023 9:37am
- Paulus
  
  It will not end until they go bust – soon I hope, but Stuff are well under way there.
  But Taxpayers are still funding them until 2026 I understand
  
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  November 12, 2023 2:25pm
- kevn
  
  Pineapple… The Empress and loyal ones in the know, will have dodged the real offering and received a neutral version of what was being pushed on other citizens. Some others in the know will have got a paper dispensation.
  It is only the plebs that will get sick.
  This is obvious on a global scale.
  
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  November 12, 2023 2:28pm
ClanMcleod

In NZ/Covidstan, get your booster!!

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the real world…..

The Covid Vaccine Scandal is Finally Going Mainstream

The scandal of the Covid vaccines – that they were far too high-risk medicines to give to people at low risk of the disease they were intended to prevent – is finally going mainstream, says Allison Pearson in the Telegraph. The major legal action against AstraZeneca shows why people like BBC presenter Lisa Shaw should never have been told to get jabbed.

At the bottom of the article there is a link to another in which David Spiegelhalter, emeritus professor of statistics at the University of Cambridge says he would hesitate to call the vaccines ‘safe and effective’.

This article is specific to Astrazeneca but the point made applies to all of the jabs administered.
These experimental products were sold to the public with a misleading claim of having 95% efficacy. This was based on Relative Risk Reduction as opposed to Absolute Risk Reduction.

It’s something that no doubt Krazykiwi, myself and others have mentioned from time to time. Many people may have skimmed over the subject, but it is one of the critical pieces of deliberate discombobulation used by politicians and ‘experts’ to help convince the NZ public that these things were beneficial.

In early 2021, AstraZeneca said its vaccine was between 62 per cent and 90 per cent effective at preventing symptomatic Covid-19 depending on dosages, with an average of 70 per cent rate of efficacy.

But the legal action suggests claims about the efficacy of the vaccine were “vastly overstated”. The legal claim states: “In fact, the absolute risk reduction concerning Covid-19 prevention was only 1.2 per cent.”

An absolute risk reduction measures how much the vaccine reduces an individual’s baseline risk of getting ill from Covid at a particular time. If Covid levels are low, the absolute risk reduction rate will be much lower too.

This is different from a relative risk reduction, which compares the numbers of vaccinated people getting ill with those getting ill who did not receive the jab. In the case of AstraZeneca, a peer-review study showed the relative risk was reduced by an average of about 70 per cent.

AstraZeneca has said it emphasised the higher figure because that did not alter regardless of the prevalence of Covid at the time.

‘Misleading’ information
Lawyers argued that information in the AstraZeneca press release on its efficacy was “misleading because members of the public… assume that the published efficacy rate was an absolute risk rate (in which case the published efficacy rate vastly overstated the efficacy of the vaccine)”.

https://dailysceptic.org/2023/11/10/the-covid-vaccine-scandal-is-finally-going-mainstream/

Is anyone else concerned that apart from (apparently) Winston Peters, not one of our MPs and none of our mainstream media, seem remotely concerned that we are still being lied to and told to get boosters for something that not only doesn’t do what it was supposed to, but is clearly being shown to cause harm to far too many people?
How is this possible in a functioning democracy?
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November 12, 2023 9:39am
- kowtow
  
  Peters was in power when all this covidmania started .What did he do or say then , that’s what matters.
  
  Then due to jacindamania/covidmania he got the arse card in 2020 GE .
  
  Out of power the Great Charlatan was desperate to get back in power .
  
  And as he has done for 25 odd years he again managed to find an angry crowd ( and yes we have so many grounds to be angry) and he agreed with them.
  
  The simple fact , imho, is he doesn’t and didn’t give a shit , about anyone other than himself .
  
  But once again he’s swung it.
  
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  November 12, 2023 11:10am
  - Ra Henare
    
    Winston is one of the shrewdest politicians to have survived in Parliament for some decades.
    
    Since MMP he knows he only has to tap 5% of voters.
    So yes pick on subjects that the main parties avoid and which are guarantied to piss off at least 5% of voters.
    
    I first came across Winston when he was our local MP in Tauranga. He lived close by and his kids went to school with my kids.
    
    Have had a number of interactions with him in an “”official”” capacity and yes his knowledge on many subjects is very shallow.
    
    But he has charisma!…. Example. On a boy scout night in the hills behind Tauranga Winston flew in to camp out overnight supporting his son. the 10 year olds had no real idea who he was. Us other parents were sitting around waiting for dinner jabbering on about nothing in particular.
    
    Meanwhile Winston was being the Pied piper with the kids wadding down the stream looking for yabbies.
    
    On a personal level I like him, on a political level I thing he is a really devious chap.
    
    PS> Have never voted for him and funded the McGillicuddy Serious Party to stand against him when he went independent from National and they wouldnt stand a candidate against him
    
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    November 12, 2023 5:50pm
    - ClanMcleod
      
      Ra Henare – instead of moaning about Peters using the disaffected voters negatively impacted by all of the abusive covid policies, maybe you should be asking your local MP or favourite political party, why they refused to even acknowledge there was a serious problem?
      
      Two benefits to that strategy, first, it would be the right thing to do, morally and legally. Second, it would have prevented Peters getting into power.
      
      You reap what you sow.
      
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      November 13, 2023 2:15pm
  - ClanMcleod
    
    kowtow – paint it any distorted colour you want, the facts remain. Peters is the ONLY NZ politician out of 121 of them to acknowledge the truth re covid jabs and the insane abuses of human rights right here and right now.
    They were ALL on board at the beginning, including Peters. He’s the ONLY one to now speak out.
    
    His reasons may be selfish, but it’s better than the other 120 put together could manage. It’s why he’s in the position he is right now. Get used to it, then ask whoever your favourite MP is, why didn’t they speak out about this nightmare.
    
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    November 13, 2023 2:11pm
- mawm
  
  Clan – “How is this possible in a functioning democracy?”
  
  We have nothing more than a veneer of being a democracy. This is manifested in so many ways. Even the good professor from Cambridge is too scared to actually say what he believes in saying he would “hesitate” calling the vaccines safe and effective. He knows they are not but is unable to say that in the “mother of all parliaments” liberal democracy of the United Kingdom.
  
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  November 12, 2023 12:24pm
  - Master Mariner
    
    The comparisons between Nazi Germany and today, With regards to full compliance from Medical Dr’s and Lawyers during the Nazi Regime.
    
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZaKnspVFno
    
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    November 12, 2023 1:13pm
Swifty

I wonder what would be the support for a suggestion to crowdfund a detailed, forensic investigation of public records relating to the personal finances, trusts and business ownerships of William Jackson and John Tamihere and their families?

Just to what extent they have personally enriched themselves from taxpayer money over the last 20-25 years?

I reckon it would be an eye-opener to Hone and Kiri down on the farm, factory, fishing boat or abattoir.
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November 12, 2023 9:42am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Trump’s Trial by a non-Jury crooked Judge over?

https://www.thepoliticalglobe.com/stefanik-takes-a-stand-files-judicial-ethics-complaint-against-judge-engoron-over-unusual-courtroom-conduct/?

If New York Judges don’t like your Politics, they can destroy you.

https://twitter.com/IanJaeger29/status/1722990579150123355?r
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November 12, 2023 9:55am
- peterwn
  
  If you do not like the way your case is going, then see if you can get the judge removed.
  
  6 3
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  November 12, 2023 11:44am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Letitia James has been after Trump for years. Long before he won in 2016.
    
    6 3
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    November 12, 2023 11:57am
    - virtualmark
      
      Maybe, just maybe, that’s because he’s a crook?
      
      2 6
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      November 12, 2023 12:38pm
      - Paulus
        
        No – she is using him so that she can get Governorship of New York and then a top Democratic Political position – eg Senator first, then Black Woman President.
        
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        November 12, 2023 2:28pm
      - virtualmark
        
        Sure. That’s why Donald took the Fifth over 440 times in his deposition to her. And why the Judge had already determined guilt from the documentary evidence, before this current civil trial had begun.
        
        Trump is a third-generation Mob asset. He’s been a crook from the beginning. But you love him because he says all the nasty things you don’t dare say yourself.
        
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        November 12, 2023 7:07pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        @Paulus,
        Ha! First Black Woman President. Mike Obama has a better chance.
        One I am watching is Candace Owens. She is very switched on.
        
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        November 13, 2023 8:02am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Have you ever heard of the Bidens? There are your crooks.
        
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        November 13, 2023 8:03am
Yvette

Of those Maori, yet to be confirmed that they are denied by Willie Jackson of 20 percent (one fifth) of their delayed response to He Paupau, how many are now angered enough at the prospect of a Treaty “principles” referendum, to “go to war”, and what part has Jackson’s actions, or lack of action, influenced that?

Or, with the demise of Labour, has the “selected Maori representatives’ “ response to He Paupau and co-governance gone completely, 20 percent depleted or not, or just 100 percent totally shelved?

So why not war threats against Labour’s non-delivery rather than anyone else?
Are Jackson’s war remarks truthful or perhaps deflection of attention from himself?
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November 12, 2023 10:01am
sirknz

Amidst the doom and gloom this morning, Alison Mau has announced she is quitting her weekly man bashing column on $tuff.

Not sure what she is doing because it is behind their paywall and my unblocker doesn’t want to open it today.

Oh well, nevermind.
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November 12, 2023 11:00am
- MCōs
  
  So you’re admitting you don’t know whether her columns are ‘man bashing’ or not?
  
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  November 12, 2023 11:31am
  - Matt Long
    
    No, he’s saying he couldn’t open today’s edition, time for Specsavers?
    
    15 2
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    November 12, 2023 11:36am
    - kowtow
      
      No amount of Specsavers will save the Blinkered Bill Brigade .
      
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      November 12, 2023 11:58am
    - MCōs
      
      How come I can open the article, no problem?
      
      3 3
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      November 12, 2023 12:03pm
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        Because the paywall that was there yesterday has been removed.
        
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        November 12, 2023 1:30pm
  - sirknz
    
    Today’s one is probably not a man bashing one, many of her previous columns (which were not paywalled on $tuff) involved some level of man bashing under the guise of ‘me too’ or distorted use of stats like the oft debunked gender pay gap or how wonderful it is that our boys are the minority at university now.
    
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    November 12, 2023 12:08pm
- Paulus
  
  Stuff running out of money so Mau is one of her kind to go – at last.
  Heard she going back to Australia.
  
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  November 12, 2023 2:30pm
Master Mariner

Will Muslims unite under Islam,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B2GOJpDhyU

Iranian President’s speech hosted by KSA ( Saudi) and attended by all leaders from Mauritania too Azerbijan.

I would suggest protesters and Media watch this, As calling the Destruction of the West as we know it.

With a Live feed of Pro Palistinians Protesters in UK, During the Summit.
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November 12, 2023 11:48am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

NZ made World News.
Look at these bullshit numbers!

https://wiredconservative.com/redbloodedconservative/leaked-docs-show-a-3000-percent-spike-in-excess-deaths-in-fully-vaxed-new-zealand/?
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November 12, 2023 11:49am
Ghost

Wow, a judge that doesn’t know gang members are innocent darlings and should be on home detention, or let off with just a telling off, I’m surprised

A Black Power trio involved in a vicious gang attack on a mentally impaired man at a McDonald’s, all because he was wearing a red jersey, will remain behind bars after a senior judge ruled the punishment fit the crime.

Patched members Hohepa Rio, 35, Timothy William Dixon, 54, and prospect Gabriel James Hansen, 25, appealed against their sentence of three years and three months’ imprisonment, arguing it was excessive.

Article
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November 12, 2023 12:57pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  I cannot comprehend the mentality of adult men who don’t question why they and at least 13 other large blokes bash and stab a defenceless, disabled person.
  
  Up to 13 Black Power members and associates took part in the attack against the middle-aged man inside the Hāwera McDonald’s in South Taranaki on September 12 last year.
  
  It occurred as the victim, who was stabbed during the brutal bashing, was waiting for his food.
  
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  November 12, 2023 1:38pm
  - Prince
    
    The cultural report said they had been disadvantaged so it was only fair to let them out to continue the attacks.
    
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    November 12, 2023 2:17pm
  - Swifty
    
    ……and then beg for mercy and reduced sentences.
    
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    November 12, 2023 2:28pm
  - surfing
    
    “I cannot comprehend the mentality of adult men”
    
    Because you live amongst civilised people .Many kiwis do not live such a life.
    
    This is how one behaves when you have delinquent parents and surrounded by drugs, alcohol, and criminals.
    
    Especially so when your lifestyle is supported by a generous government and lenient judges who say your behaviour is the fault of long dead colonists .
    
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    November 12, 2023 4:06pm
    - Swifty
      
      Quite right.
      
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      November 12, 2023 4:19pm
  - rouppe
    
    Plenty of women are complicit in this behaviour too. Perhaps the occupancy at Arohata might be a clue. Or the death of baby Ruthless.
    
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    November 12, 2023 5:14pm
- NothingLeft
  
  The choice, as a predatory mob, to inflict serious violence on an innocent here with zero justification, is so egregious that I would favor permanent banishment from NZ or prison – pay a 3rd world country to give them citizenship (put it up to tender) and revoke their kiwidom. Ordinary kiwis should not have to rub shoulders with evil jackals like these.
  
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  November 12, 2023 3:48pm
Pineapple Lumps

Maggy it was literally a case of them seeing red and completely losing it. Lucky they didn’t drive past a Labour Party convention.
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November 12, 2023 2:06pm
- Ghost
  
  They would have just gone in to pay their labour membership..
  
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  November 12, 2023 2:08pm
  - Paulus
    
    They are honorary Labour Party Members anyway.
    
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    November 12, 2023 2:31pm
  - Pineapple Lumps
    
    Or is it the other way around, pay us drug rehab/protection money and we won’t disclose which politicians lawns we are mowing?
    
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    November 12, 2023 8:23pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  It must be a real dilemma for Black Power.
  
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  November 12, 2023 3:36pm
- Pineapple Lumps
  
  Strange – I hit reply to Maggy above but ended up as a new thread. Anyone else having issues like this?
  
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  November 12, 2023 8:21pm
surfing

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/133149513/i-save-lives-im-not-a-spy-chinese-migrants-protest-long-waits-for-clearance

So who does a ‘potential’ spy or terrorist turn to when they need help to enter NZ…

In the opening speech to the crowd, Green Party immigration spokesperson Ricardo Menéndez March, said he had worked with “countless” migrants who had been affected by the delays.

“Unfortunately, I can say the only communities that have approached me with these issues are Chinese people and people from Muslim countries,” March said.

Good to see immigration NZ are profiling correctly. I wonder if chinese have established their prisons here like in other countries? Likely so.
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November 12, 2023 3:25pm
- Swifty
  
  Unfortunately for Chinese people they come from a country with a long history of Communist evil deeds and we are quite right to protect ourselves from Chinese Communist Party extending more tentacles in our direction. Christ, they’ve been setting up their own police stations as close as Oz as well as harassing Aussie citizens in Aussie turf!
  
  As for Muslims, the MP for Tijuana is being quite disingenuous. Just look at the massive problems Western Europe has had with Islamic immigration. Again, we are quite right to protect ourselves from it, I don’t care who it ‘offends’.
  
  They need us. We don’t need them.
  
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  November 12, 2023 4:18pm
  - Ghost
    
    You must have missed this
    
    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/130691233/beijing-denies-chinese-police-station-operating-in-new-zealand-as-authorities-probe-allegation
    
    https://www.newsroom.co.nz/chinese-police-centre-in-nz-tied-to-businessman
    
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    November 12, 2023 4:27pm
    - Swifty
      
      The Chinese Government pleaded innocence over the ones in Aussie when the evidence was stark and overwhelming.
      
      The Chinese government has been known to lie about these things.
      
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      November 12, 2023 9:02pm
      - Ghost
        
        Pretty much. Wouldn’t surprise me if there is one in the south island too
        
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        November 12, 2023 9:11pm
NeverMindTheBollocks

Just for Ian Boag –

https://auctions.dunbarsloane.co.nz/1776/catalogue/0587
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November 12, 2023 4:09pm

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