General Debate 29 January 2024

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Yvette

This is the link to David Seymour’s speech yesterday –

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/01/read-and-watch-act-leader-david-seymour-delivers-state-of-the-nation-speech.html
Read and watch: ACT leader David Seymour delivers State of the Nation speech

I was vastly disappointed at the way 1–News reported the current topic of the Treaty Principles Bill as set out here – only read the speech, towards the end, and see how 1–News advanced their biased agenda in relation to this.
https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/one-news-at-6pm/episodes/s2024-e28 log-in

1– News presented strong opposition to the proposed Bill (starting with Margaret Mutu from about 2:20 into the item) and I think did not show one sentence from the speech itself.
It is the difference between news that informs a viewer, opposed to news that incites further “news”.

The speech aims I think to calm and inform. TVNZ would rather contribute to division and ignorance.

It does tempt one to believe that 1–News and TVNZ are fucking around with items to channel (sic) the country into an agenda which is not the stable informative purpose the State set them up to fulfil.
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January 29, 2024 8:00am
- Grunter
  
  “It does tempt one to believe….”
  
  I would use stronger words than that Yvette – it is exactly what TVNZ is doing. Same with the rest of the MSM. It is called ‘propaganda’
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:04am
- Clyde
  
  The more people that go through the process of making a formal complaint to the broadcaster and then the BSA with copies to Melissa Lee, the better.
  
  We all know the broadcaster automatically dismisses all complaints of bias, but if enough people go through this process it will open the eyes of those who can alter the membership of the Boards of these broadcasters and the funding of these organisations who have consistently failed to deliver balanced news.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:04am
- Tricati
  
  I saw the article, and again Margret Muta suggesting it is a re-write of the Treaty, which we all know is absolute nonsense – The coverage of this issue is so biased its nauseating to say the least.
  It was a classic example of a so called Maori elite/academic mis-informing the public on a serious constitutional issue.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:34am
  - Damocles11
    
    They know they have to lie to the public, otherwise they will support David.
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:40am
  - Burtland
    
    Mutu’s continuing misinformation is quite perplexing – maybe she needs to put on the vanilla lens’ her BSc MPhil PhD imply, to comprehend the discussion – either that or Seymour needs to speak even slower
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:28am
  - David Garrett
    
    Tricati: The MSM is actively conspiring – and I use that word deliberately – with the radical Maori bullshitters to spread disinformation about what it is ACT is proposing.
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:59am
  - KiwiSapper
    
    “…..It was a classic example of a so called Maori elite/academic mis-informing the public on a serious constitutional issue.”.
    .
    Also prevalent by “the media” in too many areas
    
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    January 29, 2024 11:01am
- Damocles11
  
  We should not refer to the regressive and divisive maori activist cabal as anything other than ‘separatists’. They reject that they signed over their sovereignty, they want to do their own thing….but presumably will want to use New Zealand taxpayer funds to do so.
  Any academic supporting this agenda is a separatist. Any journalist supporting this agenda is a separatist. Any politician supporting this agenda is a separatist.
  Would be interesting to see how a ‘Maori state’ would function in reality. What are referred to as ‘pakeha institutions’ are the same institutions that are present in any successful country anywhere in the world. Part of the Maori reason for signing the Treaty was to access British laws and governance, due to the lawlessness and disarray that prevailed here in 1840.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:48am
  - Grunter
    
    And….
    Just to make the same point, but make it even more abrasive by using the Africaans word for separatism…. APARTHEID
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:01am
    - mawm
      
      It’s Afrikaans. There is no “c” in their alphabet.
      
      Like the word “racism” apartheid has also lost all value, along with “white supremacist”, “right wing”, etc.
      
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      January 29, 2024 3:19pm
  - Burtland
    
    a “maori state” could be interesting
    – wahine would be allocated the back seats and not allowed to speak
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:36am
  - Cantabrian
    
    I would want reparations for all the money and effort my ancestors have put into making this country what it is since around 1836 (in the case of the longest here.)
    
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    January 29, 2024 11:09am
    - NZer In Exile
      
      I would say trillions in life enhancing (for everyone, regardless of racial heritage) modern infrastructure would be on the balance sheet. Basically no contest if we were to get honest about it all.
      
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      January 29, 2024 5:41pm
  - Damocles11
    
    ‘The Kohimarama Conference was held in Auckland in July 1860 and was
    attended by over 200 chiefs mainly from the North Island. It was one of the largest and the most influential Maori gatherings ever held.
    The Conference finished with a resolution passed unanimously at the last session. “That this conference takes cognisance of the fact that several chiefs, members thereof, are pledged to each other to do nothing inconsistent with their declared recognition of the Queen’s sovereignty, and of the unions of the two races.’
    
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    January 29, 2024 12:39pm
- jenkies
  
  Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
  You know what would be fully transparent? Seymour talking about how he has approached the Treaty principles bill and in fact all of his ideology. That’s right, it’s time he explained his alignment with the Hobson’s choice cultists’ and his libertarian values, especially the most extreme values and views. Then we will be able to have a proper debate. The man is constantly weaving and ducking, you shouldn’t trust anyone that acts like a petulant miniature fox terrier. He nips at heels and then hides away to the safety of a fancy yacht club to give everyone a telling off. The man is a delusionist.
  
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  January 29, 2024 11:19am
  - Damocles11
    
    Oh yeah? He’s heading to Waitangi, how is that ‘hiding away’? He’s walking straight into the lions den. Ridiculous that you accuse him of ‘hiding away’. Obviously you are not the sharpest tool in the shed if your assertions about the man & his character do not even pass the most basic of logic tests.
    
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    January 29, 2024 11:39am
    - jenkies
      
      He was hiding away, don’t know how you could see it any other way. He has always used this approach sorry mate. Perhaps his mana will increase as he walks into the ‘lion’s den’ as you put it. Not in a good, constructive way though knowing Seymour. He will become more petulant and be very shocked when the rational ones in this country don’t understand his highly charged ramblings. If only he would front up and finally let everyone know what his true ideology is, Hobson’s pledge, extreme libertarian views and all! Ducking and diving and politiking is his chosen approach-seems dodgey to me.
      
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      January 29, 2024 12:19pm
      - Damocles11
        
        ‘Extreme libertarian’. Nah, he’s a libertarian. He believes in human freedom. You believe in enslaving humanity in the chains of collectivism.
        
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        January 29, 2024 12:41pm
      - KiwiSapper
        
        “…If only he would front up and finally let everyone know what his true ideology is….”
        .
        You ask the above and as I know, I ask you what is your true ideology?
        Now is your chance, declare yourself or forever be automatically down ticked .
        
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        January 29, 2024 1:03pm
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        Well, I bumped into him on Molesworth St not long before Christmas. Coffee in hand, he was heading to his office, as I was to mine. We had a brief chat, I told him to stick to his guns & wished him well.
        
        I don’t call that hiding away.
        
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        January 29, 2024 5:12pm
  - David Garrett
    
    jenkies: Firstly, welcome to the best political blog in NZ; I haven’t seen you here before. Shame you don’t feel able to use your real name, but then the vast majority don’t.
    
    Why do you describe the members of Hobson’s Pledge (It’s PLEDGE mate; Hobson’s Choice has a completely different meaning) as “cultists”? Brash and his fellow travelers make one point and one point only: That the treaty was supposed to unite “the people of New Zealand” – which then referred to the Maori majority – with the minority of settlers.
    
    The name of the organization is taken from Hobson’s words to the assembled Chiefs – in Maori – at Waitangi which translated as “Now we are all one people”. How is believing those words meant something somehow “cultish”?
    
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    January 29, 2024 12:12pm
    - jenkies
      
      Any assemblage of people with extreme ideology is cultish to me, (talking about Brash and the like). I am an individual and rely on my own smarts to get by. Hobson is a man of his time. He only did what he thought was right and he wasn’t quite right was he? Like I said, he was just a man of his time and not a soothsayer. I am concerned at the group think in this particular situation and am sorry if it ruffles feathers when someone breaks up the echo chamber with alternative views but they are my own.
      
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      January 29, 2024 12:28pm
      - Damocles11
        
        An assemblage of people with an ‘extreme ideology’ – as judged and decided by you of course. Yet the international Communist movement, responsible for the deaths of hundreds of millions, is probably not an ‘extreme ideology’ in your mind.
        
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        January 29, 2024 12:44pm
    - jenkies
      
      Sorry I meant Hobson’s pledge! Didn’t catch that…
      
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      January 29, 2024 12:31pm
  - Cassandra
    
    jenkies: total rubbish – Seymour has been saying this for years at public meetings. You need to pay attention rather than spouting your delusions.
    
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    January 29, 2024 12:15pm
    - jenkies
      
      No no. I’m talking about fronting in the media. You do not hear anything of the sort from him, though to be fair the media need to ask these questions! The general public DO NOT know the extent of his ideology. It looks to be intentional.
      
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      January 29, 2024 12:34pm
      - Damocles11
        
        I know the extent of the ideology of Labour / Te Pati Maori / Greens: racial separatism, marxism, collectivism, climate hysteria. A clear & present danger to New Zealand.
        
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        January 29, 2024 12:46pm
      - krazykiwi
        
        “DO NOT know the extent of his ideology”
        
        On the contrary. Seymour is the most open and transparent about his beliefs and values of any politician in the last 30 years. I expect you simply don’t like what he stands for.
        
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        January 29, 2024 1:06pm
      - Libertarians are right
        
        Of course it’s intentional. The media DO NOT want the general public to know the extent of his ideology. Imagine if everyone knew he wants everyone to live their lives as free from external interference as possible? It’d be chaos.
        
        Libertarianism is a very weird ideology to be an extreme adherent of but he clearly isn’t. He has shown himself to be more than willing to have Government interference in certain areas. I’ve never met an extreme Libertarian that wants complete dissolution of Government.
        
        As Ideologies go, Libertarianism is far less dangerous than most of the others because it simply states that people’s personal rights are absolute (to the extent they don’t directly negatively affect the rights of others). That’s it. Most other ideologies tend to try to control people and limit their rights.
        
        If you consider Seymour a dangerous ideologue, what do you consider all our other politicians who want considerably more control over us than Seymour?
        
        Or are you one of those “freedom is dangerous, the Government knows best” ideologues?
        
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        January 29, 2024 2:45pm
      - mawm
        
        kk – “I expect you simply don’t like what he stands for.”
        
        It is probably that he simply (note the word) doesn’t like what he has been told to dislike.
        
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        January 29, 2024 3:24pm
  - krazykiwi
    
    Weclome jenkies. It’s going to be fun having you around here. I can feel it in my extremely ideological bones.
    
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    January 29, 2024 1:02pm
    - jenkies
      
      Thank you. I mean it too. I do like a good debate!
      
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      January 29, 2024 2:13pm
      - Grunter
        
        Excellent – I look forward to it! I hope you start getting a bit more specific and clearer in your argument, I’d hate to misinterpret.
        
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        January 29, 2024 2:45pm
  - Grunter
    
    Specifically, what part of Libertarianism do you dislike? I’m genuinely interested to better understand your position.
    
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    January 29, 2024 1:22pm
    - jenkies
      
      I understand the values of libertarianism. I actually think they are very good and honest values, (though there are some blurred lines at the fringes of libertarianism which do cause me to be skeptical). The main issue I have though is with it’s compatibility with any society as it is today. It seems like we would be needing to be living in a kind of Utopia before we’ve even been able to implement any of those values. I can’t see it working unless it was day 1. That is impossible right? History and, in fact, time are a thing. Where there is history, there is grievance and instability and never quite proper unity and cohesion among people. It is always worse when there are different races colliding. Usually one race gets left behind. Here we are no different. I think it is impossible to implement libertarianism ideals without ruffling many feathers. David is wasting his time in my book and should get back to the twerking, (though I never want to see that ever again).
      
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      January 29, 2024 2:35pm
      - Grunter
        
        Thanks jenkies – but why pick out Libertarianism as part of your argument? All ways of living (ideologies) have pros and cons, some are worse than others. They can all have a very bad effect on some races vs others. I’d argue Libertarians are the most benign when it comes to race as they value the individual so race is a non-issue until someone else starts forcing group identity onto others (as it is now in NZ with all the Maori vs non-Maori nonsense).
        
        Collectivism (tribalism/Marxism/socialism) has clearly resulted in massive deaths and very bad outcomes throughout history (any examples of where it has worked??).
        
        Libertarianism or at least Libertarian ideas ruffle less feathers (IMO) and, most importantly, allows the free market to operate thus growing the entire pie better than any other ‘system’.
        
        Some individuals are better than others at figuring out how to make money – that’s life! I want to be an All Black but I’m too old, slow, and short – accept it and go do something else.
        
        Setting up different rules for separate groups/races is just dumb. Especially when one of those ‘races’ can be defined as almost anything. I know some mates that call themselves Maori because they have 1/128th Maori blood. It is just completely bonkers!
        
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        January 29, 2024 4:12pm
- An Old Kiwi
  
  https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/01/read-and-watch-act-leader-david-seymour-delivers-state-of-the-nation-speech.html
  Read and watch: ACT leader David Seymour delivers State of the Nation speech
  
  I’m reading this now. Wow. What I’ve read so far is simple Economics 101 and is common sense. And yet. Nobody else says it, and the media hates it. Well done, Seymour.
  
  Wow. With this govt we might just make some progress back to being a 1st world country – or at least slow our decline into being just 3rd world islands.
  
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  January 29, 2024 12:22pm
Chuck Bird

David Seymour was on with Tim Dower this morning. He suggested NZ increase its military spending and not bludge off our allies.
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January 29, 2024 8:03am
- Cassandra
  
  Extensive reporting of Seymour’s State of the Union speech in the media with the notable exception of the Herald. The main comments reported seem to be Willie Jackson who predictably opposes everything Saymour says. We need a lot of resets – policing, racism, Defence expenditure, education. The sooner we establish that the ToW is NOT a partnership the better. But this week? Minister to tell police that protest must not impose lawful activities like fishing ie do your job or go get another!
  
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  January 29, 2024 8:14am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    The TOW is a bloody partnership, its two races coming together as one, how can that not be a partnership ?
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:10am
    - lastmanstanding
      
      Queen Vicky didnt do partnerships in 1840. She didnt need to. When you rule most of the world you make an offer to the natives to protect them from wiping themselves out in return for allowing you to govern them and you give the greatest gift at that time British citizenship. Simple really. And thats why the Chiefs signed up. They wanted to stop killing each other but being tribal they needed a third party the British Crown to ensure this. Those Chiefs were much smarted than they are given credit for certainly smarter than todays rabble of racists and separatists.
      
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      January 29, 2024 9:59am
      - cmm
        
        Exactly right.
        
        THe biggest single thing that Maori got out of the Treaty was becoming British subjects. They saw the white man’s magic and they wanted the benefits.
        
        The modern day reinterpretations are exactly the opposite. It is stripping people of the white man’s magic and trying to promote the stone age values/mythology that the 1840s Maori were so eager to leave behind.
        
        So too is the Maori king’s insistence that he acn rule for all NZers. That is exactly the opposite of what was negotiated in the treaty.
        
        But somehow we’re being led to believe that handing everything over to Maori is what the treaty says.
        
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        January 29, 2024 10:48am
    - mandk
      
      Two races coming together as one is a union.
      
      If two companies agree to merge, they don’t have a partnership. They become one.
      
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      January 29, 2024 10:00am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        Do what the hell fo you call two races coming together as one people? Don’t tell me that’s a merger.
        
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        January 29, 2024 10:26am
      - Don Beckett
        
        G – you are actually quite ignorant. Don’t you understand ‘surrendering sovereignty’ ?
        
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        January 29, 2024 11:12am
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        Plenty of Maoris and more recent immigrants have merged to become one family. That’s why there are no 100% Maoris any more.
        
        Since it’s happened to all current day Māoris, I struggle to understand why someone as smart as Margaret Mutu doesn’t see & apply this in the broader social & political context.
        
        Willy J, I’ll give him a pass on this one.
        
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        January 29, 2024 5:17pm
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
      Down vote me all day people, but what do you call two races coming together as one? It’s not that bloody hard.
      
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      January 29, 2024 10:25am
      - In Vino Veritas
        
        Sorry G, a Treaty is not a partnership. They are two entirely different things. A partnership can be dissolved. A Treaty on the other hand can be broken, but not dissolved. Different people coming together under a legal agreement doesn’t automatically make the agreement a partnership.
        
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        January 29, 2024 10:49am
      - cmm
        
        In a partnership there are still distinct legal bodies with some common overlapping agreements and responsibilities. At some stage a partnership can be dissolved.
        
        For a country, that would be more like a federation of independent states.
        
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        January 29, 2024 10:51am
      - Dougal10
        
        NZ doesn’t only have two races unless you take the maori view that it is them and pakeha , nothing else.
        
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        January 29, 2024 10:52am
      - wsk12345
        
        Yes two races came together as one. But the queen did not become a partner of the Maori, she became their sovereign.
        
        Do you really think the British Empire were so desperate for this little bit of land that they gave the local savages partnership while their own men remain subjects. Don’t be so bloody ridiculous.
        
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        January 29, 2024 10:53am
      - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
        
        Its called a Union.
        
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        January 29, 2024 4:18pm
    - PurplePen
      
      William Colenso (1811 – 1899) was at the ToW signing. He was the only person in the tent who took notes of what was debated by Chiefs and others and wrote a full account of this and the signing. What is useful to read in his account is the objections from some Chiefs that signing the ToW, which was written in Maori, would mean they would be giving up their sovereignty. They didn’t like this. I’ve provided some extracts below which make this obvious.
      
      Irrespective of how anyone today interprets what was written, how the Chiefs understood it at the time is what matters. In the end they signed it knowing they were giving up their sovereignty. Not quite an equal partnership.
      
      EXTRACTS FROM COLENSO ACCOUNT
      
      Tareha, chief of the Ngatirehia Tribe, rose, and, with much of their usual national gesticulation, said, ” No Governor for me -for us Native men. We, we only are the chiefs, rulers. We will not be ruled over What! thou, a foreigner, up, and I down! Thou high, and I, Tareha, the great chief of the Ngapuhi tribes, low! No, no; never, never.
      
      As each chief affixed his name or sign to the treaty the Governor shook him by the hand, saying (in Maori), “He iwi tahi tatou” (“We are [now] one people”), at which the Natives were greatly pleased. All that were disposed having signed, the Natives gave three cheers for the Governor.
      
      After some little time Te Kemara came towards the table and affixed his sign to the parchment, stating that the Roman Catholic bishop (who had left the meeting before any of the chiefs had signed) had told him “not to write on the paper, for if he did he would be made a slave.”
      
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      January 29, 2024 10:53am
    - David Garrett
      
      G: Oh dear…without giving you a law lecture, this is why.
      
      Firstly – and most importantly – there can be no partnership between sovereign and subject – and the treaty makes Maori subjects of the British Crown. Imagine Queen Victoria making a partnership with her cockney subjects, but not the inhabitants of the rest of England – the idea is legally absurd.
      
      Second, to be an “international treaty” the parties thereto – two or more of them – need to be sovereign states. As Apirana Ngata noted in his 1922 paper, there was no such thing as a “government” recognised by all Maori in 1840. Rather there were individual chiefly fiefdoms.
      
      Thirdly, to come into force, any international treaty must be ratified by the parliaments (or equivalent) of all the signatories. Again, because there was no Maori government, there was no body capable of ratifying the “treaty” – in inverted commas because it was no such thing.
      
      There are about seven other pre-requisites for an international treaty to be such a document, but I said I wasn’t going to give a law lecture. Do your own research.
      
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      January 29, 2024 11:08am
      - I remember when
        
        “Rather there were individual chiefly fiefdoms.”
        Which is why copies of the Treaty were taken around New Zealand to be signed.
        
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        January 29, 2024 12:03pm
      - Jake Dee
        
        Good stuff Mr. Garrett,
        maybe a little off topic but here is some history of what a “Partnership” with a Sovereign such as the monarch of England might actually look like’
        
        ” The Field of the Cloth of Gold” was a summit meeting between King Henry VIII of England and King Francis I of France held from 7 to 24 June 1520 . The meeting was arranged to increase the bond of friendship between the two kings following the Anglo-French treaty of 1514 . The summit was held at Balinghem, between Ardres in France and Guînes in the English Pale of Calais . It was a very expensive display of wealth by both kings . The two monarchs would meet again in 1532 to arrange Francis’s assistance in pressuring Pope Clement VII to pronounce Henry’s first marriage as illegitimate .
        
        The Field of the Cloth of Gold was a tournament jointly hosted by King Henry VIII of England and King Francis I of France to celebrate an Anglo-French alliance and a ‘Universal Peace’ agreed in Europe in 1518 . The two monarchs jousted, tourneyed and fought on foot against knights of both courts . The meeting was designed to show how magnificent each court was, and how this could be a basis for mutual respect and peace between states that were traditional enemies Henry and Francis were also figures of similar age and dashing reputation, so there was almost certainly a mutual curiosity . Everything was arranged to provide equality between the two groups .
        
        en.wikipedia.org. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_of_the_Cloth_of_Gold.
        
        So that shows something of what a mutually recognized treaty between Kings (political entities) of equal status looks like. The lavish games and gifts may seem to be unnecessary but play an important role in human psychology, as was the choice of the location.
        If I host you at my house with lots of great food, games and gifts I display my status. All people recognize this. If it’s equal between the two, either I host you and then next year you host me, or we do it in a neutral location and we both bring the same.
        Nothing liked that happened at Waitangi.
        
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        January 29, 2024 3:35pm
    - Jake Dee
      
      The concept of a “Partnership” was very well understood by the British of the 1840s. If they wanted to use that term they would have but they didn’t.
      Calling The Treaty a Partnership now is clearly “retconning”, an attempt to retrospectively rewrite events so the script fits what you would like it to have been. By glomming “Partnership” onto a 19th century document it gets more kudos (or Mana if you like) than it would if it was just invented by some academic in the 1970s
      
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      January 29, 2024 3:16pm
  - kowtow
    
    page 2 , print version. herald.
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:11am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    That is the way to fix the Police. If you can’t do your job, start looking for another.
    This includes the Police who are higher up the ladder.
    Overall, when you look at the NZ Police Force they are pretty dam useless.
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:30am
  - jenkies
    
    Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
    It was a partnership. Sorry to burst your bubble…
    
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    January 29, 2024 11:22am
    - NoFax
      
      An assertion without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
      
      However, plenty of evidence has been laid out showing that the TOW cannot be considered a partnership. If you are genuine then present some facts that prove your point.
      
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      January 29, 2024 2:50pm
    - Libertarians are right
      
      Evidence? It’s not enough that jenkies thinks it was. Where is your evidence that the signing chiefs thought it was a partnership. There is plenty of evidence that they didn’t.
      
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      January 29, 2024 2:51pm
    - KH
      
      Here is some evidence for Jenkins. Summary. It’s not a partnership.
      https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/dr-lawrie-knight-fact-checking-waitangi-tribunal-finding
      But evidence will not change Jenkies fantasy.
      
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      January 29, 2024 3:41pm
  - KiwiSapper
    
    ” The sooner we establish that the ToW is NOT a partnership the better.”
    ,
    As the Treaty of Waitangi has never been a partnership no need to establish anything. Just disregard Cooke’s similarity opinion, which is all it ever was, NOT a legal fact.
    
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    January 29, 2024 1:10pm
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      Lord Cooke of Thorndon did not state that ToW was a partnership. He said that it was ‘akin to a partnership’, which is not the same thing.
      
      Personally, I disagree with his comment. However, it’s important to be clear about what he did & did not say.
      
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      January 29, 2024 5:54pm
- Simon
  
  Why increase military spending without first resolving Treaty issues? If the race Marxist get their own way NZ will not be worth defending. What will even be the point of paying taxes?
  
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  January 29, 2024 8:21am
  - Grunter
    
    I’d go even further and say, why build a military force if we have a Maori Separatist system? Which system would run the military – Maori or non-Maori? Or do we have 2 separate militaries? Imagine Willie & Tuku with their own military!
    
    See how silly and dangerous this gets?
    
    Just do a referendum, have a vote, and get rid of this nuttiness!!
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:01am
    - jenkies
      
      Hidden due to low comment rating. Click here to see.
      I guess you’ve heard of people comparing a few Maori and Pacifica people getting better health outcomes as apartheid? Totally nuts aye! I guess they weren’t alive at the time as you couldn’t seriously make that comparison. I reckon they should watch a doco or two on apartheid in SA and even explore the civil rights movement. You can rest assured most people have the sense to understand the difference. Just a side note, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer uses the word genocide and some people go nuts, the term apartheid has been well utilised on forums like this one and has sadly become normalised. Bananas!
      
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      January 29, 2024 11:31am
      - Grunter
        
        Try this one…
        
        “separating, setting apart
        The term “apartheid”, an Afrikaans word, derived from the French term “mettre à part”, literally translated to “separating, setting apart.” Apartheid is a policy that is founded on the idea of separating people based on racial or ethnic criteria.”
        
        Seems an appropriate description of the path NZ is currently heading down. Separate health, separate electorates, separate local council wards, separate rights on 3-waters, …. (I’m sure I’ve missed a few)
        
        And all the Maori Elite openly state that they want Maori Separatism.
        
        So twist it whatever way you like. Use the word Separatism or Apartheid – they both mean the same thing.
        
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        January 29, 2024 12:00pm
      - mawm
        
        Jenkies – You don’t believe that separate health systems delivered different outcomes under apartheid?
        
        One of the pillars of apartheid was the “Separate Amenities Act” which ensured that whites and blacks were unable to use the same schools, hospitals, toilets, beaches, etc. There was a disproportionate amount spent on a per capita basis on health care between the races. It appears to me that this is precisely what is happening in NZ. Maybe you should stop watching “BBC” doco’s and do some investigation of your own – and not just the BBC, NY Times, etc.
        
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        January 29, 2024 3:39pm
  - Inandout
    
    Simon, I genuinely believe any aggressor would run a mile rather than deal with our local tribes. We shall remain a rather strange country at the bottom of the Pacific.
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:25am
  - Unity
    
    The Treaty was only one of 6 documents that made NZ into a British Colony with a Governor and Constitution that set up NZ’s political, legal and justice systems undere one flag and one law, irrespective of race, colour or creed. Governments have completely ignored the other 5 documents that have allowed the Treaty to be manipulated and misinterpreted never intended by those who signed it in 1840. It did NOT found our country. Can I ask everyone far and wide to go into http://www.onenzfoundation.co.nz and read all about the 6 documents. You will then realise that the Treaty is insignificant and we have all been duped big time, i.e. we are living under a great big lie. Treason comes to mind!!
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:32am
    - PurplePen
      
      Here’s an incomplete list if you’re to tired to click the link:
      
      NZ’s FOUNDING DOCUMENTS
      
      Source: The Laws of New Zealand – Constitutional Law:
      
      He Whakaputanga o te Rangatiratanga o Nu Tireni (Not Aotearoa BTW), the Declaration of Independence of the United Tribes of New Zealand. First signed by 34 Northern Māori rangatira (chiefs) on 28 October 1835, He Whakaputanga collected a further 18 signatures by 1839. Southern Maori were not party to this at all.
      
      Treaty of Waitangi 1840 which BTW also calls the country Nu Tirani.
      
      1907 the New Zealand Parliament asked Britain to change NZ’s status from a Colony to Dominion. The proclamation issued made NZ a Dominion with effect from 26 September 1907.
      
      Statute of Westminster Adoption Act 1947
      
      (NZ) Constitution Act 1986. New Zealand’s principal constitutional statute and is sometimes likened to a written constitution, but the instrument is declaratory only of New Zealand’s existing constitutional arrangements and is not protected from change by the ordinary legislative process.
      
      Imperial Laws Application Act 1988 mean the three acts below continue to apply as law in New Zealand under this Act:
      
      The Magna Carta 1297
      Petition of Rights 1627
      Bill of Rights 1688.
      
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      January 29, 2024 10:57am
    - jenkies
      
      My browser wouldn’t let me go there-said it was a suspicious site. “onenz” does sound a bit Hobson’s pledge culty though? Are they aligned with them? I remember old Brashy put out some dodgey websites that had veiled agendas hiding behind ‘unity’ speak. That sounds a bit like one of them. Funny how they never quite like to show you how they constructed their dodgey ideology. Always about ‘solving our country’s problems’ but through a lens and an approach that most of us know nothing about and can’t really relate to, (unless you are a bit angry, entitled and confused).
      
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      January 29, 2024 11:39am
      - kiwikidsnz
        
        “…angry, entitled and confused…”
        
        You would know.
        
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        January 29, 2024 12:10pm
      - Dougal10
        
        Ahh using a good old govt computer you can’t access real facts.
        
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        January 29, 2024 1:23pm
      - Grunter
        
        Dougal10 – Sorry, I hit ‘Report’ in my haste to ‘Reply’
        – I had the same thought as you when I read Jenkies comment.
        
        Jenkies – which govt dept server are you ‘working’ from?
        
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        January 29, 2024 2:51pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        “One NZ” isn’t culty it’s sensible. It’s a call to get together and unify to build a decent future for EVERYONE. Dividing by racial heritage is conversely completely nuts and blatantly fascist.
        
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        January 29, 2024 5:44pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Saw a news item about Singapore Defence. It is huge for their 5.4M population.
  What does NZ have? A few ships and no bullets.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:09am
imalwaysright

Standing by for the news that another of the kiwi babies/toddlers currently being tortured and beaten has been murdered.
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January 29, 2024 8:03am
- jenkies
  
  Woah! There’s lots of really cool things in the world to do with your time that are far more fulfilling than that. Just out of curiosity-do you mean Maori or Pakeha babies or do you mean just babies and toddlers in general?
  
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  January 29, 2024 11:43am
  - imalwaysright
    
    You keep doing your cool things and don’t worry your wee head what colour the dead child is.
    
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    January 29, 2024 1:57pm
    - jenkies
      
      Don’t get me wrong, it is a tragedy.
      
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      January 29, 2024 2:44pm
  - Grunter
    
    Jenkies – keep at it mate, you are slowly uncovering yourself….!!
    
    Your comment above uses the old Marxist trick of inserting racism into something someone else said and pretending that you didn’t say it.
    
    You’ll have to get better than that if you are to spark any serious debate on Kiwi Blog. You are entertaining in a bad way though.
    
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    January 29, 2024 2:56pm
    - jenkies
      
      Yeah I won’t last long here I think. Despite assumption on here from some active imaginations, you have got me quite wrong. I do see an ‘echo chamber’ though and it looks like many here enjoy it’s comfort. Libertarianism is a thing at the moment with old Seymour attempting to push out his minority ideas-that’s why I was talking about it, (see my comments above on how it is impossible to implement his ideas-I ain’t shifting on that). As for apartheid-woah I can’t believe I have to say this to adults-it’s not a term to loosely throw around and it does make most sane people think of some of the worst times in our history. It is also not ‘just a word’ it has history attached as I said. It is also a bit less triggering than the word ‘separatism’, (only a bit less mind). Both are not commonly used throughout history as they are bandied around here. I am not a government agent!? I am an individual with no attachment to any extreme ideology, just looking for decent debate.
      
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      January 30, 2024 7:51am
peterwn

More crap journalism from the Herald. ‘The future of our Interislander ferries and the political risk Nicola Willis faces’. Most of the story is stale news anyway. The story makes it seem that the decision to scrap the project was Nicola Willis’ personal decision for which she must personally face the consequences. It would have been too inconvenient to point out that the decision was made by Cabinet, so Nicola would have had Chris Luxon and the other Ministers right behind her. The article also implies that the bottomless pit into which the Government was asked to throw money into was the only Ferry solution. There are other options such as purchasing ferries that could use existing port facilities but no mention was made of this. About time there was REAL journalism instead of National Government bashing.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-future-of-our-interislander-ferries-and-the-political-risk-nicola-willis-faces-the-front-page/3TYMAJGP55CPRMB4RP2DHS5WB4/
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January 29, 2024 8:04am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  And the fact is was just another labour cluster
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:19am
- imalwaysright
  
  Have they considered leasing some ferries in the interim?
  
  The Cook Strait link is of national importance, rent a couple of boats until a permanent solution is found.
  
  https://www.qpsships.com/-pre-owned-passenger-ships
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:21am
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Crickey, there are some old dungas there!
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:40am
  - fightingtemeraire
    
    Stena could have a couple down here tout de suite and have three built within 4 years.
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:42am
  - peterwn
    
    The issue is whether the inter-island rail link needs to be retained. The Aratere is the only remaining ‘rail’ ferry built 1998 and lengthened 2011. While there is an active market for RoRo ferries there is no market covering rail ferries (especially narrow gauge). They have to be purchased new on a ‘bespoke’ basis. Having a rail ferry service is highly convenient but not an absolute necessity. So purchasing or leasing new or used RoRo ferries is a valid option at one end of the scale and is virtually the default option as second hand ships can be purchased or leased at much shorter notice than building new ships. The next option up is purchasing two bespoke rail enabled ships (and a third one later) that suit existing terminal facilities. Approval in principle was probably given to the project on that basis until very serious ‘scope creep’ occurred eg the ships should be larger (requiring revamped port facilities), should be ‘green’ (requiring much more complex propulsion means at greater cost) etc etc. Hence the situation that Nicola Willis was faced with when she became Finance Minister. Things needed to get back to the drawing boards without rail enabled ships being a ‘must have’.
    Incidentally someone posted somewhere on what would be a good Christmas present for Nicola. My immediate thought was a bottomless Scrooge McDuck style Money Bin so Nicola can be all things to all people.
    
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    January 29, 2024 11:15am
    - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
      
      Yes, and having a rail enabled ferry that is far to big to fit Port facilities at either end…. and then not including the port facilities upgrade in the business plan ….
      
      There is a word for that?
      
      It might be “incompetence?”
      It might even be “corruption?”
      But it is certainly not “good practice”, and no intelligent Government should ever have let that business case through to the next hurdle, let alone committed to it.
      
      Oh, hang on, the Labour government don’t do maths, they did Feelz! Maybe the ferries passed the feelz test?
      
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      January 29, 2024 4:26pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Not being replaced? Good. The ideas that came up were ridiculous.
  Having to massively alter Wellington and Picton berths was just a Kiwirail brain fart.
  What is wrong with something that fits what we have?. Common sense is just not so common anymore.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:37am
  - virtualmark
    
    Steve,
    
    The new ferries were designed to cater for forecast population and traffic growth over their 25-or-so year lifespan.
    
    Theoretically you could keep running ferries the same size as the ones we use today, but you’d end up needing a fleet of about a dozen of them and then you hit problems with the turnaround times clogging up the port infrastructure. Which brings us back to investing in port infrastructure …
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:21am
    - Dougal10
      
      Your forgetting that the new ones included rail. Rail in nz is basically dead for long haul interisland. At most it is feel good commuter and inland port to sea port usually about 50 miles max.
      
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      January 29, 2024 10:58am
      - virtualmark
        
        Not forgetting, just didn’t mention it.
        
        Rail has three main roles in NZ.
        
        Firstly, commuter rail in Auckland and Wellington. This is where the clear majority of the benefits accrue … basically it takes a large number of cars off the road and avoids the need for huge investment in roading, parking etc. But it is fair to debate whether re-purposing the urban rail corridors into dedicated busways would be just as good and offer more flexibility.
        
        Secondly, moving imports from ports to the major urban areas and moving exports from factories to the ports … basically connecting the ports to the rest of the economy. The size of modern-day container vessels mean that rail is vastly more efficient at this than trucking. And it moves a lot of heavy vehicle traffic off the roads, which allows you and I to drive with less congestion.
        
        Thirdly, moving non-urgent freight between the major urban centres, particularly Auckland-Christchurch. If it’s perishable produce then it goes by air or road, if it’s large & not urgent it goes by ship. But if you’re in Christchurch and you order a new tennis racquet or a fridge it’s coming to you via rail. Again, it takes a lot of heavy vehicle traffic off the roads, which means less congestion, less road damage etc etc.
        
        Rail-enabled ferries mean that Auckland-Christchurch link is about 12 hours faster and quite a bit cheaper, because there’s no unloading/reloading at the ports. That in turn incentivises more freight to go off roads and on to rail. That’s the rationale for rail-enabled ferries … we should want as much freight as possible to travel by rail because it’s better for us as drivers.
        
        Personally I agree with you Dougal that if we don’t have rail-enabled ferries then that will hugely impact long-haul inter-island rail and in turn that means we’ll have lots more trucks on the road.
        
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        January 29, 2024 1:50pm
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Well if there is an Elite Maori Coup we won’t have to worry. There will be no more Colonialists.
      
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      January 29, 2024 11:20am
    - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
      
      Nope, if you cared about growth, you wouldn’t have bought only 2 vessels. Where is the strategic resilience in that.
      
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      January 29, 2024 4:28pm
  - imalwaysright
    
    Problems seem to be an excuse to not do anything.
    Solutions tend to involve work, that’s why these types are allergic to them.
    
    Why doesn’t Willis ask a couple of the ferry captains to come to her office and the three of them go online and lease a couple of boats?
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:46am
- Cantabrian
  
  As I understand it, the issue is not just the vessels themselves, but the burgeoning costs of providing the infrastructure in Picton and Wellington. Those costs could be contained if the vessels were smaller. And the notion of leasing replacements stumbles over the need for at least one to be rail capable – and ferries are not being built with our silly narrow gauge track.
  What Willis (the government) is doing is telling NZ Rail that it needs to be more disciplined in its spending and not automatically go for the gold-plated solution.
  
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  January 29, 2024 11:19am
  - virtualmark
    
    The port infrastructure in Picton and Wellington is going to need upgrading for two reasons.
    
    Firstly, population & traffic growth. Secondly, disaster resilience.
    
    The upgrades that were linked to the new ferries addressed both of those issues. We’ve now cancelled the ferries and stopped the infrastructure spend … but both those issues are still with us.
    
    There is a *huge* issue to tackle at the moment as to why are our infrastructure projects becoming so expensive (are we over-speccing them is it usury from the contractors, have we lost our mojo somehow, should we re-create a Ministry of Works etc). But I don’t see this new Government preparing to have that conversation.
    
    So far it looks like the classic New Zealand “it looks too hard so we won’t do it until it’s so urgent it’s decades overdue”.
    
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    January 29, 2024 1:57pm
    - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
      
      Were the port upgrades in the business plan? or were they unfunded cost blowouts?
      
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      January 29, 2024 4:29pm
      - virtualmark
        
        I was involved in the original assessment and Budget case for the ferries. Overall I think they were a sensible decision. From an operational point of view I’d have preferred three medium sized ones rather than two big ones, but that was going to be more expensive.
        
        And to be fair I think the ferries themselves were on-time and on-budget.
        
        At the time the port upgrades weren’t fully scoped, and so were a separate (but clearly linked) project. The reason the port work wasn’t scoped was that KiwiRail & CentrePort & NZTA were going round and round on whether the ferries should be at Kaiwharawhara or re-located to be beside the Railway Station (where Bluebridge is). There were quite a lot of unresolved traffic planning and parking issues (remember each of the new ferries would carry more vehicles than all KiwiRail’s current ferries combined).
        
        Clearly there was a lot more work done after my involvement, because the final plans were quite different to the concepts that were being tossed around when I was involved.
        
        Personally I think the port upgrades are necessary, but I also can’t understand why the cost has blown out so much. We have serious issues now as a country in terms of building things on time and within reasonable budgets.
        
        Personally I’d have preferred a Minister of Finance pause the work, call everyone in for a total carpeting, and bring in some external expertise to review plans/budgets etc … rather than just knee-jerk cancelling things. But I think the new Government wanted to be seen to giving someone a short sharp shock, to encourage the others (as the French would say).
        
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        January 29, 2024 5:05pm
Tomtoddy

James Busby, who wrote the Treaty was no mug. He had a chequered career but he was a very able business man, a writer and his records were acknowledged by the Queen and her minions in Westminster as having sufficient importance and value that Busby was appointed the British Resident in New Zealand from 1833 to 1840. Note some commentators/historians tend to disparage Busby as “shifty”, “unreliable”, a “failure” in an endeavour to bolster their case for more major role for the Māori chiefs who signed the Treaty.

Here is a serious question. If Busby and, also Hobson who oversaw the writing of the Treaty, had been instructed by ‘mother England’ and were, in their own mind, determined to establish some form of co-governance in their composing of the document don’t you think they would have made it much clearer that it was their intention to do so? Think about it. The framework for co-governance would have dominated the articles because of its uniqueness and the need for elaborate description.

There would have been much less reluctance among the chiefs to sign. There would have been much more discussion and decisions making on the detail of how a co-government would have been established and how it would work. None was recorded. All the negotiations were focused on what the chiefs thought they were giving away.

It is a practical and simple explanation why co-governance was never considered.
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January 29, 2024 8:10am
- Yvette
  
  Tomtoddy, another question may be –
  
  If the Treaty is between Maori and the Crown – as the likes of Tukoroirangi Morgan would claim, an exclusive relationship excluding non-Maori – what do the 83 percent of the present population who are non-Maori, look to as their national founding document?
  
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  January 29, 2024 8:30am
  - G152
    
    And what of the fact that there are no full blooded Maori to answer to the Treaty????
    
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    January 29, 2024 8:46am
  - James Stephenson
    
    If the treaty is a partnership between Crown and Maori, and the elected government is now “the Crown” then anyone who identifies as Māori must surely be ineligible to be a minister?
    
    The only way any of this makes logical sense is that the partnership created by the treaty is between Māori and non-Maori, making everyone “New Zealanders”.
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:06am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      The Treaty is not a ‘partnership’ full stop.
      Making everyone New Zealanders is what we already have. What Maori want is General and Local Elections to be voted for, but with Maori being appointed not voted in. They also want the power of “veto.”
      That is “RACIST.”
      
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      January 29, 2024 9:41am
      - imalwaysright
        
        I heard that the iwi in hawkes bay got fed up with being consulted about the post storm repairs.
        They asked people to stop consulting them.
        Imagine what they would be like if they had to run the show.
        
        Be careful what you wish for!
        
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        January 29, 2024 10:07am
  - RoboRob
    
    Interesting point. The treaty is specifically a document between Maori and the crown. It is a founding document in that it was a settlement between the existing population and the English settlers which established us as one nation under the crown.
    
    There was no partnership, the document was an agreement by Maori to relinquish control to the crown in exchange for all the rights of British citizens. Non Maori, were British citizens and were represented in the treaty by the crown, the same way Maori were by their chiefs.
    
    We should codify the treaty, and what it does and doesn’t mean. Seymour is 100% right and it is disappointing that National are so quick to rule this out. We must remove the false concept of co governance and define what, if any, principals were established. We should then look at a written constitution outlining the rights and responsibilities of all New Zealanders going forward. Written constitutions help protect the people from overzealous government in a way that thinks like ‘the human rights act’ have not.
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:40am
    - Cantabrian
      
      The Treaty was an agreement of its time. Neither Hobson, Busby, nor the British government – nor, I’m sure, the Maori signatories – would have envisaged it being argued over 180 years later. The sooner it is consigned to history the better.
      (edited: phrase inserted)
      
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      January 29, 2024 11:23am
      - RoboRob
        
        Agreed, I am sure they didn’t.
        
        However, we should actually be proud of the treaty. Unlike almost every other colonised country, we didn’t attempt to wipe out the indigenous population or just ignore them (the Australian solution). The treaty, in its basic sense is good. It is only recent academic interpretations that have clouded the basic intent and principal.
        
        Maori would be better off if some Iwi stopped focusing on grabbing more money and power via the treaty. If Iwi focused on why, when Maori have the same (or better) rights and services, they are failing, NZ and Maori would be better off. I would point to Ngai Tahu as a good example of an Iwi that spends its time and resources on improving the lives of its tribe through education and support.
        
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        January 29, 2024 11:40am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Correct Cant,
        
        The treaty is basically a marriage license with a few vows tacked on.
        
        If they don’t like it then its divorce time.
        
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        January 29, 2024 2:07pm
  - Dave
    
    In reply to Yvette @ 8.30.
    
    Perhaps the 1852 New Zealand Constitution Act, which made NZ self governing and granted the franchise to male land owners, though because few Maoris owned freehold land, it effectively discriminated against Maoris until 1867, and against women until 1893.
    
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    January 29, 2024 1:00pm
- David Garrett
  
  Tom: Spot on. And 80 years later, in 1922, Sir Apirana Ngata was in no doubt that the chiefs had ceded sovereignty in 1840. He told his readers that if they didn’t like that reality, they should “blame your ancestors”
  
  Interestingly, Ngata cited Article III – the one you never hear anything about – which granted Maori the status of British subjects, as by far the most important of the three articles. Although I have not read his paper, it would seem he made scant – if any – reference to Article II, which greedy Maori now bang on endlessly about.
  
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  January 29, 2024 8:43am
  - imalwaysright
    
    D.G
    
    I wonder if the maori activists know that probably more than half of the people on earth would gladly sign up to that treaty.
    (Before the Ardern government it would have been at least three quarters.)
    
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    January 29, 2024 8:52am
  - nathie
    
    Also surely if the Chiefs hadn’t ceded sovereignty in 1840 (as the modern day re-interpretation goes, cough), then Nu Tireni/NZ would have been ripe for conquest by the likes of the French? (Because the Brits wouldn’t have had any authority).
    
    If so how do modern day re-interpreting activists/academia/Waitangi Tribunal/Labour Party (sneakily via PIJF/NZ On Air guidelines) counter that?
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:00am
  - Libertarians are right
    
    It’s an amazing article. In fact he pointed out that they should probably stop complaining because under article 3, they are equal and therefore the years of not paying property taxes due to Maori property exemptions was against the Treaty and that they technically owe decades of back taxes on that property.
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:00am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    You can read it in its entirety here:
    
    https://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-NgaTrea-t1-g1-t1.html
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:04am
    - David Garrett
      
      Brilliant…thanks Maggie.
      
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      January 29, 2024 9:20am
      - cmm
        
        DG wrong Maggy.
        
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        January 29, 2024 9:29am
      - Flossie
        
        Such a pedant as yourself DG should know that one of the worst errors one can make is to spell a name incorrectly.
        
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        January 29, 2024 12:42pm
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        re spelling of Maggy/Maggie..
        
        Give D.G. some slack…
        I used to spell my diminutive as Maggie, but Hubby spelt the name as Maggy on the wedding rings he made for us… so I stuck with that spelling.
        
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        January 29, 2024 2:38pm
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        Hubby … lol! On the back foot, like, foreva!
        
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        January 29, 2024 6:01pm
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        On the back foot, like, foreva!
        
        He’s had 45+ years to make a run for it, but the old bugga seems to have settled in for the duration.
        
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        January 29, 2024 7:09pm
  - RoboRob
    
    Well it doesn’t take a genius to know that the chiefs ceded severity as its clearly spelled out in the text of the treaty, as opposed to ‘partnerships’ and ‘self governance’ which are entirely missing !
    
    The first of the three paragraphs makes it pretty damned clear ….
    
    ‘The Chiefs assembled including Chiefs not present at the assembly hereby cede absolutely to the Queen of England for ever the Government of all of their lands’?
    
    Sound like a partnership?
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:44am
    - Cassandra
      
      We know severity is sovereignty but I kinda like severity. It’s how Kiwiblog should treat Willie J. And jenkie.
      
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      January 29, 2024 12:27pm
      - RoboRob
        
        lol 🙂
        
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        January 29, 2024 1:24pm
  - In Vino Veritas
    
    6 February, 1940, Centenary of the Treaty of Waitangi. Sir Apirana Ngata on radio “Clause 1 of the Treat handed over the mana and the sovereignty of New Zealand to Queen Victoria and her descendants for ever. That is the outstanding fact today. That but for the shield of the sovereignty handed over to Her Majesty and her descendants, I doubt that there would be a free Maori race in New Zealand today”.
    
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    January 29, 2024 11:21am
    - Colville
      
      That is a terrific quote.
      
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      January 29, 2024 2:23pm
    - KH
      
      I support the Treaty, including that the chiefs signed up to the single sovereignty of the crown. No partnership.
      The chiefs agreed fully knowing what it was. Here is evidence.
      https://www.bassettbrashandhide.com/post/dr-lawrie-knight-fact-checking-waitangi-tribunal-finding
      What we need now is for Seymour to sort the inventions created and repeated by the likes Jenkies. In particular the quite inventive, and wrong, principles.
      
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      January 29, 2024 3:55pm
  - Countrygirl
    
    Roborob, sorry I think I had fat fingers
    
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    January 29, 2024 12:53pm
- Burtland
  
  maori already had co-governance and it was resulting in genocide
  
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  January 29, 2024 10:58am
- jenkies
  
  Busby and Hobson were men of their time. They were not gods or somehow privy to what the future might hold. They were just doing what they thought was right with their limited knowledge at the time. That is why the Treaty needs protection from others that would have a similar approach. Seymour will not be able to take the rest of us with him because most people don’t align with his ideology. He does not show his cards, that should be a warning sign right there. Let him fully explain how he came to his approach to the Treaty and anything that concerns Maori for that matter, Hobson’s pledge, extreme libertarian views and all! I’m am surprised the media doesn’t take him to task more on that particular situation.
  
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  January 29, 2024 11:52am
  - Cassandra
    
    Seymour has been explaining, in public, his philosophy for 20 years! What rock have been under?
    
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    January 29, 2024 12:29pm
    - jenkies
      
      If you asked the general public what they know of Hobson’s pledge and libertarian ideology, you would see some very confused looks. He is approaching everything from a lens and perspective that only a minority of NZers know of or understand. I understand it is an uncomfortable truth for some.
      
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      January 29, 2024 12:44pm
      - KH
        
        Jenkies – you can’t see the support Seymour has. Even you agree with that.
        Maybe you are like Tova O’Brien, political journalist, who wrote the morning after the election ” who saw that coming”
        Outlandishly out of touch.
        Maybe you and Tova are in the same bubble.
        
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        January 29, 2024 4:06pm
  - Grunter
    
    Jenkies – I think there are a lot of us not really following the logic in your argument. You’ve used a lot of broad swipes at Seymour without explaining much apart from he’s a Libertarian but doesn’t show his cards.
    
    Seymour’s position on the Treaty (Maori version) is to actually read it out, word by word (both languages even). It is obvious to everyone who has actually bothered to read the Treaty that the word ‘partnership’ is nowhere to be seen.
    
    Maybe help us out and explain better what you mean??
    
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    January 29, 2024 2:03pm
  - Damocles11
    
    You’re trying the same trick you lot used with ‘neoliberalism’ (which just means ‘less state intervention / less state ownership / less state regulation’). You think just by repeating “Hobsons Pledge” and “libertarian” often enough you can make them dirty words. Effectively it is just another form of ad hominem attack. My dirty word is ‘Marxism’ – an imbecilic credo that defines us all primarily by class and maintains all history is a history of ‘class warfare’. [Mod – debate without the silly personal jabs]
    
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    January 29, 2024 2:29pm
    - jenkies
      
      Well, I’m in no way a Marxist not sure what you’re saying. I repeated those words because they characterize part or almost all of his belief system. To repeat again-not many Kiwis know about Hobson’s pledge and libertarianism in general. I’m not keen on those beliefs but I wasn’t trying to use them as ‘dirty words’. I just consider those beliefs fantastical in this day and age and would like others to attempt to see the logic in my argument.
      
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      January 30, 2024 7:59am
  - Jake Dee
    
    ‘They were not gods or somehow privy to what the future might hold. They were just doing what they thought was right with their limited knowledge at the time. That is why the Treaty needs protection from others that would have a similar approach.’
    
    This also perfectly translates to,
    
    “WE ARE not gods or somehow privy to what the future might hold. WE ARE just doing what WE THINK IS right with OUR limited knowledge OF the time.
    That is why the Treaty needs protection from others [that means all of us today] that would have a similar approach.”
    
    This is what appalls me most about the political “progressives’ and neo-Marxists. They really believe that they have a privileged position from which to observes the march of time.
    They do not.
    
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    January 30, 2024 7:12am
Warren

Someone needs to start a petition saying we have had enough of the threats from less than 16 % of the population and we the people want a referendum as quick as possible so New Zealander’s can take back their country, which is being dictatored to by Maori.
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January 29, 2024 8:15am
- David Garrett
  
  No apostrophe in “New Zealanders” old boy…unless it is used after the “s” in plural possessive, as in “the New Zealanders’ way of life is a relaxed one”
  
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  January 29, 2024 8:45am
  - Maggie's partner
    
    but probably a comma between New Zealanders and old boy
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:18am
    - thirteenstars
      
      And a space after the ellipsis. Actually, the ellipsis is redundant and somewhat overused. A comma after “old boy” would provide the right pause.
      
      Also, a full stop at the end.
      
      This is so much fun.
      
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      January 29, 2024 10:50am
  - David Garrett
    
    …or the singular possessive, as in “a New Zealander’s house should be his castle”
    
    Sorry guys…the spirit of Miss Norman who taught me how to write good English – in Standard One – hovers over me…
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:22am
    - cmm
      
      Do your knuckles still twinge every time you think of her ruler?
      
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      January 29, 2024 10:39am
      - David Garrett
        
        cmm: No ruler from Miss Norman mate… (with the proper space after the ellipsis!). She was the only primary school teacher I remember with affection… and the only Marist brother I had any respect for died a painful death of lung cancer at age 45.
        
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        January 29, 2024 11:13am
      - Damocles11
        
        Not his knuckles…..
        
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        January 29, 2024 11:41am
    - PurplePen
      
      Shouldn’t that be “a New Zealander’s house should be their castle”.
      
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      January 29, 2024 11:05am
  - krazykiwi
    
    For you, DG 🙂
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:46am
    - David Garrett
      
      Krazy: That’s very funny… thank you!
      
      The apostrophe is apparently so last century…it’ll be gone within a generation. I don’t mind that so much; that is language usage evolving. What I find hard to swallow is its misuse…such as in potato’s… or even plan’s…
      
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      January 29, 2024 11:56am
      - Jethrod
        
        Oh my God…. who let loose the grammar and punctuation Nazis?!
        
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        January 29, 2024 12:55pm
- Grunter
  
  Having a referendum on the Treaty is now entirely in the hands of National.
  
  If they support ACT’s Bill then we all get to vote. If National doesn’t support ACT’s Bill then we continue to go down the path of Maori Apartheid.
  
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  January 29, 2024 8:55am
  - RoboRob
    
    Actually I think its entirely in the hands of the population. National needs to know that the vast majority of the public are 100% behind clarifying the treaty. It is only then that National will allow it to proceed. At the moment they are, strangely, scarred about losing the Maori vote.
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:46am
    - Grunter
      
      Fair point – Thx
      
      Maybe I need to email Luxon & Willis (again)
      
      David Garrett – when you were an MP, did emails from us Plebs like me have any impact at all? (serious question)
      
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      January 29, 2024 2:12pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Yep. Luxon needs to make up his mind on whether he and National are ‘National’ or Labour Lite.
    Has he forgotten why he was voted for?
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:48am
  - Warren
    
    You get a petition going and it ends up with 70% to 80% of the country backing it the Government will have to take notice suicide for the parties in power to ignore it. They would be lucky to return to Government for several years if they did not give the population the say.
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:05am
    - Burtland
      
      seems National and NZ1 believe that none of their voters want a referendum
      – theyre thinking they can put this to bed by ignoring it
      
      but if the lump in the bed is big enough and theres no referendum, the next election would default to one
      
      polling and petition might help clarify things – but everyone except ACT are looking for obfuscation
      
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      January 29, 2024 11:22am
      - Damocles11
        
        Winston probably doesn’t want David to score a major vote getting ‘win’, even if it’s in the best interests of the country.
        
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        January 29, 2024 11:42am
  - Tom Hunter
    
    Having a referendum on the Treaty is now entirely in the hands of National.
    
    It always was, and actually it’s in the hands of the Mapp/Finlayson brigade of National who are determined to stop it.
    
    And they will. There will be no referendum. The “principles” will continue to be defined in back rooms and court rooms by lawyers and judges steeped in three or four decades of acceptance of the Maori/UN concept of such treaties, including especially the now standard belief among those groups that sovereignty was not yielded by the Chiefs in the TOW.
    
    In other words the Mapp/Finlayson cabal of Brilliant and Ethically Superior people who know what’s best for the rest of us, especially the “sour racists”.
    
    The best one can hope for is that in 20-30 years time we won’t be an ethno-nationalist state with the likes of Willie Jackson, John Tamihere, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer and Rawiri Waititi (meaning their more radical successors) having the power to enforce their racist words and actual de-colonisation (and don’t forget this is what de-colonisation means!) over the peasants, just like any other tribal society.
    
    But that’s just a hope.
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:33am
    - thirteenstars
      
      “In other words the Mapp/Finlayson cabal of Brilliant and Ethically Superior people who know what’s best for the rest of us, especially the “sour racists”.”
      
      Oh, you love twisting that knife, don’t you, Tom?
      
      May I sharpen it for you?
      
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      January 29, 2024 10:56am
      - Burtland
        
        “sour racists” – Finlayson’s knife, nice description
        
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        January 29, 2024 11:31am
    - Damocles11
      
      Mapp/Finlayson and their whanau are on the gravy train, why on earth would they want to get off of it?
      
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      January 29, 2024 11:43am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Not true, NZF have also said it will not go further then first reading
    
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    January 29, 2024 11:02am
  - Cassandra
    
    Another option is the NZ First one of passing a Principles Act and then promoting it at the 2026 election. Effectively a referendum without the hassle.
    
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    January 29, 2024 12:32pm
- I remember when
  
  If we are honest it is really somewhere around 8% of the population by ethnic percentage.
  Regardless of whether people call themselves Maori, or tick the box at census, they can’t ignore their European heritage when they talk about Treaty rights.
  
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  January 29, 2024 10:25am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Tuesday week they will kick up merry hell, and they will become irrelevant from that date on
  
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  January 29, 2024 11:00am
- jenkies
  
  First off, Maori ARE New Zealanders. Your comment suggests you would be taking a country back off them? A bit odd as they were here before Europeans. We are all together here mate. There’s just a few confused and angry people out there that maybe just don’t want to live in unity. There is no apartheid going on here-watch some docos on apartheid in SA for some perspective. Maori have never and will never be in charge of this country though if we were all treated equally, perhaps they would have a chance. Like many, I grew up in a town where there was a ‘Maori’ side of town and a ‘white’ side of town. Guess which side was the ‘poor’ side? I don’t think it has ever been the other way around, (just for some more perspective).
  
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  January 29, 2024 11:59am
  - Damocles11
    
    Maori are certainly New Zealanders, as they carry the DNA of the very colonists that they rail against. Maori separatism has become a strange form of self-hate, whereby a group of people deny their own racial identity & decry the actions of their own ancestors.
    
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    January 29, 2024 3:23pm
  - wsk12345
    
    And here I was thinking they were not New Zealanders but Maori who are in partnership with NZers. Well that’s the implication of your inane comments here today.
    
    You think Maori are not in charge of this country when 35% of MPs are Maori against ~10% of the population. Oh not possible as they are poor.
    
    I also grew up in a town that was about 50:50. The kids I went to school with all had the same opportunities, well they had more due to all the Maori only scholarships that were available. Most did t take them though sadly. Their choice.
    
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    January 29, 2024 3:58pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    Jenkies I usually just refuse to engage with brainwashed 20 somethings but has it ever occurred to you that a CULTURE of not respecting getting vocational training or an education could be a reason why the stats on average are not good for those who identify as “Maori” (whatever that actually means in this day and age)??? Look at other cultures (say Chinese just for example). They generally hugely value hard work and education. Guess why they are at the top of the success pyramid?
    
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    January 29, 2024 5:53pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      Change the general culture of not respecting modern education and you will see the stats head the other way.
      
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      January 29, 2024 6:23pm
    - jenkies
      
      Far more nuanced than that I’m afraid, (not so simple). If you can’t follow the breadcrumbs back to why Maori are so disadvantaged then perhaps you have a compromised view? I’m not any where 20 but thanks.
      
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      January 30, 2024 8:03am
      - NZer In Exile
        
        Jenkies: “If you can’t follow the breadcrumbs back to why Maori are so disadvantaged then perhaps you have a compromised view?”
        
        But you don’t use the same “ancient breadcrumb method” to justify the failings of ALL people other than Maori? This means your hypothesis is a fraud.
        
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        January 31, 2024 7:44pm
Simon

In 2035 GAE is in poor shape. The rebel States of the south are forming their own country. GAE can’t muster the necessary land military internally to extinguish the breakaway States. ( The morbidly obese platoon commanders are not working out. )

GAE does, however, still have a large number of functioning aircraft carriers, advanced missile and AI drone tech. GAE can probably guard the Pacific against China for a number of decades. GAE asks NZ to help provide land military to help fight against the break away “white supremacist” States. (The average NZ platoon commander BMI is around 22.)

NZ govt is led by a coalition of Labo, Gweens & Maori party. Installed by GAE via engineering a economic recession when National made the horrible mis-step of questioning the man made climate change scam.

Does the NZ govt sent military to help fight the “white supremacists” break away States?
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January 29, 2024 8:15am
- NZer In Exile
  
  If the “GAE” keeps going the Biden nut-house way, I’m not sure they’ll be capable of defending much at all.
  
  Gee, I wonder
  
  [Mod – fixed link]
  
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  January 29, 2024 5:59pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    KB sometimes doesn’t seem to like Odysee links for some reason. Try this one:
    
    http://tinyurl.com/53zah9u2
    
    [Mod – fixed for you]
    
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    January 29, 2024 8:00pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      Thanks Mod!
      
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      January 29, 2024 8:12pm
Damocles11

The only way to stop the ‘co-governance’ garbage that is dragging our country down is to support the political parties that want to stop it. Enough is enough. We are never going to move forward as long as this nonsense is hanging over our collective heads. If a pollster asks you which party you support, say ACT, or NZ First. Luxon is either unwilling or unable to act decisively to stem the separatist tide.
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January 29, 2024 8:23am
- jenkies
  
  Like I said before on this thread, watch some docos about apartheid in SA and even the civil rights movement. It might open your eyes and change your perspective. Pukekohe in the old days is another good study for separatism. We do not have anything remotely like that now thank God and to suggest we do is just bananas. The separatism Seymour is proposing is very real however and needs some special attention. If only we lived in a libertarian utopia his views might be compatible but our history and reality in general says no.
  
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  January 29, 2024 12:04pm
  - Damocles11
    
    Separatism is preached by the part-Maori side, which has become a strange cult whereby a group of people are lambasting their own ancestors.
    
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    January 29, 2024 3:24pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    jenkies I’d say most people on here are double or triple your age. They grew up with activism. Many were naive idiot lefties long ago also! But they grew up. I’d say most know vastly more about SA apartheid than you do. Many here also were born in SA and lived there for decades.
    
    What is Seymour proposing that is “separatist” in your view? How is it “separatist”?
    
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    January 29, 2024 6:31pm
    - jenkies
      
      I was an ‘idiot right winger’ when I was 11. I grew up.
      
      That last question is just too facetious sorry.
      
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      January 30, 2024 8:06am
      - NZer In Exile
        
        Jenkies: “I was an ‘idiot right winger’ when I was 11. ”
        
        Profoundly unlikely. Don’t believe you.
        
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        January 31, 2024 7:41pm
cmm

Helicopter ride for the whale that went up the Christchurch estuary?

FFS when a whale goes up an estuary it is dying. Just shoot the bloody thing and put it out of its misery.
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January 29, 2024 8:25am
- I remember when
  
  Often wonder why the first action isn’t a ‘cost benefit analysis.’
  
  Prime example being the SPCA and excess animals especially pups and kittens.
  
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  January 29, 2024 8:44am
  - wsk12345
    
    Yeah and while we are at it let’s do a CBA on the bludgers that contrubute nothing to this country and are surplus (by choice) to our workforce?
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:03am
  - cmm
    
    I’m sure there is a cost benefit analysis. Local iwi see how much they can milk.
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:21am
- pdm
  
  cmm:
  
  Option 1 – then dig a hole and bury the thing.
  Option 2 – tow it 5ks out to sea and feed the fish with it.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:54am
  - cmm
    
    Oldie, but goodie: the exploding whale video.
    
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6CLumsir34
    
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    January 29, 2024 12:40pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  Would be interesting to know the total cost of this rescue.
  
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  January 29, 2024 7:00pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

This morning on the TV1 idiot box Debbie Packer was interviewed.
I particularly noticed her ear tags. On them was the racist message “Decolonise.”
How come she can get away with this shit? Is it nobody dares to challenge her racisim because they would be branded “Racist?”
Reverse the roles and there would be hell to pay.
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January 29, 2024 8:27am
- Taieri
  
  A bit like Queers for Palestine…
  
  Time to decolonise marae first. Are women allowed to make speeches there yet?
  
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  January 29, 2024 8:39am
- G152
  
  Ear tags eh…. been known to identify a lot of sheep that way
  
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  January 29, 2024 8:48am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Doris has the pink one.
    
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    January 29, 2024 11:23am
- Damocles11
  
  She is half Irish. Yet she is decrying ‘colonisation’, without which she literally would not exist. Make it make sense.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:10am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Is her father Hemi Ngarewa a full blooded Maori?
    If not she is more than half Irish, and less than half Maori.
    I suggest 1/16 Maori and 15/15 European.
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:07am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      15/16***
      
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      January 29, 2024 12:27pm
    - Maggy Wassilieff
      
      Is her father Hemi Ngarewa a full blooded Maori?
      
      Quite possibly.
      
      As Debbie Ngarewa-Packer explained in her Maiden speech in Parliament:
      
      it was a big deal for both families, as Mum was the first Pākehā to ever marry into his whānau, and Dad was the first Māori ever to marry into hers.
      
      https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/hansard-debates/rhr/document/HansS_20201203_052260000/ngarewa-packer-debbie
      
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      January 29, 2024 3:10pm
  - Burtland
    
    is Racial Identity Syndrome at play here ?
    – a psychiatrist may be able to explain whats going on
    
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    January 29, 2024 11:43am
    - Damocles11
      
      Imagine hating and denying your own ancestors, both the Kupapa and the colonist ones.
      
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      January 29, 2024 3:26pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      In most cases narcissism seems to be a factor. Look at moi! I’m special.
      
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      January 29, 2024 7:01pm
- kowtow
  
  “Decolonise” , in English on an English language tv station on a medium invented by the colonisers and she’s an MP in a colonial institution.
  
  Self awareness 101 ; fail.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:22am
  - herb1
    
    She’s anti colonialism, yet she supports her co leader Waititi, who, everyday displays his support and adulation of the American colonialists. The very same colonialists who marched across the American prairies wiping out thousands of native Americans.
    There colonial brothers from the south , owned African slaves.
    Somehow that colonialism is ok with TPM but the colonialism that gave them food , homes and the job of a lifetime, isnt
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:43am
- jenkies
  
  Racist? Nah man racism is colonising a country with an indigenous people already living there and then trying to steal their land and take away all their rights. I forgot to mention attempts to wipe them out. If only we started this experiment in a different way, more inclusive perhaps? We wouldn’t be worried about it anymore. Sadly the confusion, entitlement and anger toward Maori has become normalised.
  
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  January 29, 2024 12:10pm
  - Damocles11
    
    ‘Sadly the confusion, entitlement and anger of part Maori has become normalised.’
    
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    January 29, 2024 3:29pm
  - Jake Dee
    
    “colonising a country with an indigenous people already living there and then trying to steal their land and take away all their rights. I forgot to mention attempts to wipe them out”
    
    This is an absurd and disingenuous reading of New Zealand colonial history. assuming you can project modern concepts of human rights backwards through history (and I don’t think you can), what human rights were enjoyed by Māori before 1760 that were extinguished by colonialism?
    As I have said before and will continue to say, Māori are now richer, healthier, better educated and more numerous than at any time in human history.
    The leftist narrative only works if Māori are considered to be oppressed victims of history, they are not, they are a huge success story.
    
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    January 29, 2024 3:55pm
  - All_on_Red
    
    You also forget to mention Maori were constantly trying to wipe each other out.
    It was full on Genocide.
    As Nga Puhi I am well aware of this!
    Lol
    
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    January 29, 2024 4:14pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    Jenkies, you’ll need to re-frame your views to get a better grip on reality. Pre Euro Maori were literally colonising each other’s land in extremely brutal and “inequitable” ways! This accelerated when they got hold of Euro guns. They were literally wiping each out in a frenzy of never ending retribution. The treaty changed that when they agreed to come under the rule of Victorian England and be British Citizens. Plenty of subsequent evidence too that they knew exactly what the deal was re ceding sovereignty. Queen Vic didn’t do woke “partnerships”. That crap was made up by academic fantasists with the late 60s/1970s marxist infiltration of the institutions.
    
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    January 29, 2024 6:17pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  “I particularly noticed her ear tags. On them was the racist message “Decolonise.””
  
  She now lives in a grass hut?
  
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  January 29, 2024 8:14pm
Chuck Bird

I am glad I am retired. It was 2 am before Sinner won after losing the first two sets.
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January 29, 2024 8:31am
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Biden’s worst speeches to date. Way past embarrassing.

https://www.redvoicemedia.com/2024/01/bidens-worst-speech-to-date-incoherent-unhinged-untrue-videos/?
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January 29, 2024 8:31am
cmm

It would seem that you can’t beat the Streisand Effect…

It looks like the iwi attempt to interfere with the Doubtless Bay fishing comp caused a lot of people to say enough is enough. 25% more people turned up than previous years.

Unintended consequences are a bitch.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/doubtless-bay-fishing-competition-successful-despite-protests-from-far-north-hapu/TKNURDISKJDD5FSACB7DBZ6PZM/
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January 29, 2024 8:33am
- fightingtemeraire
  
  Wonder how many of the locals were hacked off at the posers trying to stop the event???
  
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  January 29, 2024 8:37am
  - pdm
    
    Posers FT?
    
    More like thugs.
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:26am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Shane Jones calls them “sub-cultural truants”
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:29am
- Grumpy Silver Top
  
  The narrowness of the thinking of the protesters, as reported, is beyond belief. The proceeds of the sales of the catch goes to support community projects which must benefit the local tribes so what is their problem? I surmise that their problem is that they are not getting their hands on the money.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:21am
  - Damocles11
    
    They just want a scrap. Anger is their dominant emotion. Their leader is a violent criminal.
    
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    January 29, 2024 11:01am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    You stole our fish e-hoa.
    
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    January 29, 2024 11:25am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Nothing like free advertising. Entries up 25%.
  Wonder how much money was raised for the Community at the auction?
  
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  January 29, 2024 10:35am
I remember when

Carroll awarded $83.3 million in Trump lawsuit.

Does no-one in the United States look at these decisions and think that is stupid.
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January 29, 2024 8:34am
- G152
  
  Evidently its because he said she was lying in a Trumpish way.
  
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  January 29, 2024 8:50am
- NothingLeft
  
  On the contrary most look and recognise that it is insane, the system is broken and structural change is required. hence why they keep trying to vote in political outsiders as president (Reagan, Trump), and have seen a lot of other outsiders ride high inpolling.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:00am
  - alwyn.a
    
    Reagan a political outsider?
    You are aware that Reagan, who was elected as President in 1980, had prior to that been Governor of California from 1966 to 1974 and had already had made attempts to become President in 1968 and 1976?
    Outsider was he? Really?
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:26am
    - NothingLeft
      
      Yeah, he was, ‘Ronald Duck’ was widely derided by republican insiders (and state+corporate interests) as a celebrity doofus insufficiently steeped in international experience and realpolitik compared to his insider competition cold-war-warrior Bush senior. He was popular with the people not the party
      
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      January 29, 2024 11:02am
      - David Garrett
        
        Nothing: I was at uni when Reagan was president…He was widely mocked at the time as “Mr Gazoo” – a play on Mr Magoo.
        
        Thirty years later he is regarded as one of the more effective post war presidents. He instigated a significant thawing in the relationship with Russia, and began the pressure that led to the Berlin Wall falling after he left office.
        
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        January 29, 2024 12:01pm
      - MCōs
        
        It’s my understanding that Americans judge presidents on how they handle domestic issues and the rest of us on international
        Broadly speaking
        
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        January 29, 2024 12:39pm
      - info@cruzpro.com
        
        Prior to becoming a politician Reagan was an actor, hence much of his popularity.
        
        I was in Uni at Cal Berkeley when Reagan called out the National Guard to quell students protesting the Vietnam war. Got gassed by the helicopters twice. Once while in a co-ed archery class and again later while shopping in the student book store.
        
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        January 29, 2024 1:14pm
      - kowtow
        
        infocruz
        
        He was also the head of the actors union the Screen Actors Guild so had some political nouse / wheeling dealing experience before formal politics.
        
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        January 29, 2024 3:32pm
- Damocles11
  
  While not a Trump fan, I can’t see how she won when there is basically zero evidence. No eye witnesses. No physical evidence. No security camera footage. Her own written account of the event admits she can’t explain why there were no staff at all present on the level of the department store where the incident took place. She also admits that the dressing rooms were always locked as this is that high end stores standard practice, and she can’t explain why the one they entered was unlocked. She is also pretty flippant over why she would have agreed to accompany a married man into one of the dressing rooms.
  Certainly NY is a democrat city and Trump is loathed by many; it would be hard to pick a jury that look upon him in a favourable or even a neutral light.
  
  Here’s the article where she first made the allegation –
  
  https://www.thecut.com/article/donald-trump-assault-e-jean-carroll-other-hideous-men.html?origSession=D240128DF9UdmU7etqVWCnkYqvoG4GwfEjEAZiIBxakhRv63rM%3D&_gl=1*3n7jhr*_ga*MjgxNTg4NDg5LjE3MDY0NzMxODg.*_ga_DNE38RK1HX*MTcwNjQ3MzE4OC4xLjAuMTcwNjQ3MzE5NC41NC4wLjA.#_ga=2.132490190.178805853.1706473188-281588489.1706473188
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:23am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    The gold digger can’t even give the date of the alleged offence.
    
    12 4
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    January 29, 2024 10:31am
    - herb1
      
      She has narrowed the date down to probably within 3 or 4 years. Perfectly u derstandable for a traumatic event as well as not telling anyone for 30 years.
      The fact her legal defence was funded by a wealthy Democrat donor and her story matched the script of her favourite soap opera , are just a coincidence
      
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      January 29, 2024 10:52am
      - Damocles11
        
        More than half the US population will dismiss her story as an utter fiction, motivated by her Leftist hate of Trump & her ultra-feminist hatred of men.
        
        12 2
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        January 29, 2024 11:04am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        The Dudge is a Democrat appointed by Bill Clinton (in other words, Hillary)
        
        5 2
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        January 29, 2024 12:30pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Traumatic event that comes up as Trump is running this year?
        Yeah, just a coincidence.
        Once again the Democrats are using someone with mental health problems. Jesus they are arseholes!
        
        7 2
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        January 29, 2024 2:39pm
  - Littletramp
    
    Have you seen the pics of the gorgeous thing he was married to at the time? I think the jury convicted him based on jealousy.
    
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    January 29, 2024 11:32am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Ivana.
      Sarah Sanders touched on this when asked about the women Trump has known.
      Her answer: “Because he is the man you wish you were!”
      
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      January 29, 2024 2:41pm
      - virtualmark
        
        I don’t get the “Trump is a manly man” thing.
        
        He’s a man who wears bronzer, and more makeup than a court fop at Versaille, he sports a combover, and a ladies watch (to make his hands look bigger), shoe lifts and he wears a diaper. He lives in homes that looked like they were designed by Liberace and furnished from the Saddam Hussein collection. When he had his chance to do manly things, like serve in the military, he magically discovered bone spurs.
        
        Added to which he has all the charm, wit and intelligence of a rectal thermometer.
        
        All the people thinking Trump is the essence of the master race have to be cult members.
        
        2 4
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        January 29, 2024 4:37pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        People know he comes across as a bit of a “rectal thermometer” in some respects but like his policies.
        
        1 0
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        January 29, 2024 7:05pm
      - virtualmark
        
        What are his policies?
        
        And are they Constitutionally, legally and fiscally possible?
        
        To be honest the only clear policy I can remember him committing to is further tax cuts for the rich. And in his Presidency, particularly from 2016 to 2018 when the GOP had the Senate and the House, the only legislation he passed was a big tax cut package … for the rich.
        
        We were promised replacements for Obamacare, and Infrastructure Week and immigration reform … and none of that happened.
        
        He’s a con. He’s always been a conman.
        
        2 1
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        January 29, 2024 7:38pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        Trump admin accomplishments:
        
        https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/trump-administration-accomplishments/
        
        2 1
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        January 29, 2024 8:08pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        VM the opposition were constantly throwing the lawfare kitchen sink at him every 5 mins. Then they crow that he didn’t achieve much! Actually as per my link he achieved an enormous amount, despite the left’s all out war of scumbaggery.
        
        2 1
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        January 29, 2024 8:21pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    I just read your link. Carroll is a head case.
    
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    January 29, 2024 11:43am
    - MCōs
      
      You would say that wouldn’t you
      
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      January 29, 2024 12:23pm
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        Is she not a head case?
        
        5 4
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        January 29, 2024 2:42pm
      - Damocles11
        
        Did you read the article?
        
        3 0
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        January 29, 2024 3:32pm
- riffer
  
  Trump should have kept his damned mouth shut and there would have been much less to pay. Idiot brought it on himself.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:36am
  - RoboRob
    
    Yes, he would have avoided this if he had kept his mouth shut. That was stupid. But like all things Trump it also works for him by increasing the attention to this frivolous case and drawing more support.
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:55am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Electioneering. His points go up even more. Almost like he is buying votes LOL!
    
    4 2
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    January 29, 2024 10:33am
  - Damocles11
    
    If I didn’t do something that I was accused of then I sure as hell would be declaring that loudly and clearly.
    
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    January 29, 2024 11:05am
  - NZer In Exile
    
    Riffer many of his supporters don’t particularly like the way he talks. They’d still vote for him though because it’s his policies and actions they vote for.
    
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    January 29, 2024 8:11pm
- MCōs
  
  Here’s an article in the Economist about the two interconnected court cases.
  If the loud mouthed fool had restrained himself after the first case verdict it wouldn’t have come to this.
  Then again I don’t expect E. Jean Carroll will ever see a brass rahzoo of the money
  I don’t have a subscription to the magazine, but can read enough to see why the the sum is so large
  Having said that American defamation cases result in huge awards compared to elsewhere
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:37am
  - MCōs
    
    https://www.economist.com/united-states/2024/01/27/donald-trump-is-ordered-to-pay-for-his-bullying
    
    1 7
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    January 29, 2024 10:12am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Paywalled.
      You know Trump will appeal this. Gotta keep the media lying and Trumps point scoring goes up more. Notice a lot of the Trump deniers have gone quiet? Wonder why? Remember the commenter and Mod ‘Batman?’ Where is he now?
      POTUS TRUMP 2024.
      
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      January 29, 2024 2:46pm
      - MCōs
        
        It’s paywalled and you need all your spare cash to help pay for Trump’s legal bills
        
        2 2
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        January 29, 2024 2:52pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Democrat Dudge.
  
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  January 29, 2024 10:37am
Tomtoddy

The United Nations organisation is a corrupt cesspool. Some 12 employees took part in the vile Hamas attack on Israel. What an utter disgrace.
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January 29, 2024 8:40am
- Grunter
  
  Yep – the UN is evil. Just look at what the WHO did during COVID and continue to do it now. Just an evil pack of central planners.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:13am
  - mandk
    
    Indeed.
    
    The WHO cannot be trusted to act in the interests of the world’s population when the majority of its funding is from private sources.
    
    8 0
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    January 29, 2024 10:53am
  - Damocles11
    
    The UN is gathering together all the worlds most prominent Leftists into a shadow world government. This organisation is a Leftist ‘Trojan Horse’ headed by Antonio Guterres – ‘a member of the Portuguese Socialist Party, Guterres served as prime minister of Portugal from 1995 to 2002.’
    
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    January 29, 2024 11:15am
- cmm
  
  Cindy’s lining herself up to go right to the top.
  
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  January 29, 2024 10:34am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    Her corruption level fits the job perfectly, and her ability to lie, and lie by omission!
    
    10 2
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    January 29, 2024 10:40am
    - herb1
      
      Her problem , even though she has the skills you speak of , her lack of intelligence will count against her.
      You need to be smart to continually lie and mount a war against your opponents.
      She demonstrated a lack of ability to do that when she quit and ran for the hills, when the going got tough
      
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      January 29, 2024 10:55am
      - cmm
        
        She’s a glove puppet. Perfect for the job.
        
        10 1
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        January 29, 2024 11:21am
      - NZer In Exile
        
        Yes, but I’m thinking Greta may not actually be a genius.
        
        2 0
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        January 29, 2024 7:07pm
BeaB

RNZ begins the day with its usual misinformation. A concert in Hamilton had to be cancelled. Actually, only the last few minutes were ‘cancelled’ because of a thunderstorm.
Why can’t the media get even small details correct?
Is it laziness and sloppiness?
Is it deliberate – to keep us in the dark?
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January 29, 2024 8:53am
- MCōs
  
  I listened to morning report
  They said about 10 minutes was cancelled due to a nearby electrical storm and they talked to the bloke who made the call
  
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  January 29, 2024 10:24am
- kowtow
  
  Newshub headline
  
  ‘Thousands forced to evacuate Hamilton’s Summer Concert series after extreme weather strikes’
  
  ‘Extreme weather’ ?
  
  Nah , thunderstorm.
  
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  January 29, 2024 1:27pm
NeverMindTheBollocks

Disgraced Green Mayor Tory Whanau calls for water meters for Wellington. Cost currently estimated to be $130m.

No explanation about how these will fix or pay for a single leak, which is Wellington’s principal water problem.

The solution does not address the problem. Green policy, since forever.
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January 29, 2024 8:59am
- Dudley Quaffquaff
  
  If she does not claim that water metering will fix the leaky pipes, that is to her credit. Water metering is not a solution to leaky pipes. It is a solution to a different issue, one that also needs addressing.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:48am
  - greybeard
    
    Of course water meters identify leaks on private properties: not all of that 44% wastage is on public land.
    
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    January 29, 2024 11:13am
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      All the leaks I see are on public land. Emerging from the tarmac. Coursing out of road reserve. Spilling down the gutters. Occasionally geysering mid-road.
      
      Most Wellingtonians quickly address significant leaks on their own property, since the alternative is to watch it slip down the bank.
      
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      January 29, 2024 6:31pm
- rouppe
  
  The only value for water meters is
  
  a) a signal that there is a leak in the pipes on your property
  b) to ultimately charge for consumption
  
  A (perhaps unintended) consequence for Tory Whanau, is to highlight even further the extent of leaks in the network she and other mayors is responsible for.
  
  However there are sufficient leaks in that network that the $130M would be better spent in the short term hiring additional contractors.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:56am
  - MCōs
    
    Kapiti Coast introduced water meters a few years ago and domestic consumption went down by 25%
    It stands to reason that people are going to get leaks fixed if they are costing them big bucks
    https://www.kapiticoast.govt.nz/services/a-z-council-services-and-facilities/waters/water-supply/metering/
    
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    January 29, 2024 12:49pm
    - Countrygirl
      
      They had to put the charges up in Tauranga when people cut their water usage too much.
      
      4 0
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      January 29, 2024 1:30pm
      - SoloView
        
        @ Countrygirl
        They put up the charges because people cut their water usage?
        
        1 0
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        January 29, 2024 3:31pm
      - rouppe
        
        @Solo yes in order to maintain revenue levels
        
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        January 29, 2024 4:07pm
- RoboRob
  
  Meters would encourage citizens with their own leaky pipes to get them fixed. It wont fix the decades of poor maintenance of the councils pipes.
  
  If the idea of penalising rate payers for having leaky pipes is so good, perhaps councillors salaries should be levied when more then 5% of council pipes leak?
  
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  January 29, 2024 10:00am
  - MCōs
    
    In the short term the issue is providing enough water to individual users
    “Wellington’s estimated non-commercial water consumption is typically about 350 litres per person per day”
    https://wellington.govt.nz/climate-change-sustainability-environment/water/wellingtons-water-supply/water-usage#:~:text=Wellington's%20estimated%20non%2Dcommercial%20water,litres%20per%20person%20per%20day.
    “A study of water use in Auckland found that people typically use between 140 and 170 litres of water a day.”
    https://www.watercare.co.nz/Help-and-advice/FAQs/General-FAQs
    
    Auckland also loses a lot of water via leaky pipes before they gets to the property border.
    However if these figures are reasonably accurate one would have to think a lot of water is wasted on one’s property
    
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    January 29, 2024 4:29pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Put water meters on the leaks.
  
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  January 29, 2024 10:41am
- virtualmark
  
  I’m not against water meters per se.
  
  But wouldn’t it be better if all the money and resource that would be directed to installing water meters be instead directed to locating and fixing the obvious leaks???
  
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  January 29, 2024 4:39pm
Chuck Bird

Just listened to ZB temporary host, John MacDonald rubbishing David Seymour. Act supporter should ring in.
38 1
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January 29, 2024 9:17am
- Damocles11
  
  All Leftists seem to support the separatist and co-governance agenda. Partly it’s their standard brainwashing, partly they realise there is no path back to power without normalising the separatist radicals – all three Left wing political parties have now been captured by them.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:29am
- pdm
  
  Text sent ringing in is not practical at the moment.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:31am
- Inandout
  
  CB, were it not for Hosking (on the few occassions he hosts) I would remain listening to music stations.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:32am
  - RoboRob
    
    HDPA is surprisingly pretty good too. Romaine Travers is at the other end of the spectrum 🙂
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:02am
    - mandk
      
      The sports shows are generally good as well.
      
      2 0
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      January 29, 2024 10:42am
    - stewmar
      
      Romaine Travers is at the other end of the spectrum 🙂
      Row man is an air head
      
      15 0
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      January 29, 2024 11:59am
      - RoboRob
        
        When someone disagrees with him they are generally cut off or cut short.
        
        7 0
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        January 29, 2024 1:26pm
Rusty

In view of another Michael Hill store being robbed and the limited action security are allowed to respond to the incident.

Can someone remind me why security people can physically detain pitch invaders at sports events and drunks in pubs?
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January 29, 2024 9:20am
- Inandout
  
  Rusty, at sports events it is entry upon payment of a fee so presumably as close to a private event as you can get. A mall is open to the public save rare occassions when closed for a plague of some sort. A pub and club have bouncers if needed so maybe alcohol licensing plays a part.
  
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  January 29, 2024 10:34am
  - Rusty
    
    @Inand out
    
    I get what you’re saying but a person entering a shop/business and committing a crime can’t be detained by security staff isn’t right.
    
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    January 29, 2024 1:25pm
- Damocles11
  
  ‘Mitchell told AM on Monday morning crime is a big problem in New Zealand, but the coalition Government is committed to dealing with it.
  
  “We know we’ve got a big problem to deal with. We are committed to dealing with it and we’ve got a big work programme this year to make sure that we get on top of it,” he told AM co-host Melissa Chan-Green.
  
  He believes the recent spate of violent incidents and the rise in crime over the last few years is down to Aotearoa having a very “permissive environment”.
  
  “That attack yesterday, which was in my patch, it was in the Silverdale Mall… I did a welfare check of the shops up there. Without a doubt, this hits the communities hard and we’re committed to getting on top of it,” he said.’
  
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  January 29, 2024 11:46am
  - MCōs
    
    “Mitchell told AM on Monday morning crime is a big problem in New Zealand”
    Compared to whom?
    We don’t typically have bars on our windows or walls around the house with broken glass along the top.
    People over the road have an electronic gate, but anyone can push through the adjacent hedge!
    https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/2732420
    
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    January 29, 2024 6:07pm
    - All_on_Red
      
      Mitchell was referring to how Crime has risen in NZ and is a lot higher than it once was.
      But clearly with your pointless ‘whataboutism’ you miss the point- again.
      
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      January 29, 2024 7:04pm
      - MCōs
        
        The comment above above doesn’t say that and you provide no stats.
        So I repeat
        Crime is a big problem, compared to what?
        
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        January 29, 2024 9:41pm
- MCōs
  
  I saw a female security guard break up a fight between two exuberant combatants at the mall in Manukau
  She sat one of them on his arse, pulled him to his feet and unceremoniously ejected him out of building
  She came back
  He didn’t
  
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  January 29, 2024 12:06pm
  - MCōs
    
    I think the other fighter was “spoken to” by his mum
    
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    January 29, 2024 12:19pm
    - All_on_Red
      
      ‘I think’…
      
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      January 29, 2024 7:05pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    She was a large lady with a number of large bros there as backup?
    
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    January 29, 2024 5:20pm
    - MCōs
      
      On the contrary
      She was on her own, maybe 5’-6 , but solid
      I think it was the element of surprise that worked in he favour
      
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      January 29, 2024 6:28pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        ‘I think’…
        
        2 2
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        January 29, 2024 7:05pm
- MCōs
  
  The Michael Hill in Silverdale wasn’t robbed because the the would be robber couldn’t break into the display cabinets
  He jumped in his/a car and was detained shortly thereafter
  
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  January 29, 2024 12:12pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Stop Co-Governance. Julian Batchelor.

Why we must never appease Maori Activists – Julian Batchelor (item in the link)

There is no Security, no Safety, in the appeasement of Evil. – President Ronald Reagan.

Get in behind Winston, Jones, and Seymour. The other dude is being useless. Email addresses included.

https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/blog/why-to-appease-maori-activists-is-not-to-act-in-their-best-interests/
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January 29, 2024 9:24am
- NZer In Exile
  
  “There is no Security, no Safety, in the appeasement of Evil. – President Ronald Reagan.”
  
  Strangely many western countries these days seem to think that being almost totally dependent on a literally brutal, racist, totalitarian and supremacist war machine is a smart move.
  
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  January 29, 2024 7:14pm
rouppe

For anyone interested in the future of the Ruapehu ski field area, Pure Turoa has put in a formal request to operate Turoa.

They get to take it for $1, remove all the lifts except Movenpick and High Noon, get a 25% equity stake from Kanoa (the taxpayer) and run it for 10 years. After 10 years there’s theoretically a right of renewal, but also an opportunity to walk away and leave the mess for someone else.

Anyone interested can make a submission, closes 9 February 5pm

https://www.doc.govt.nz/get-involved/have-your-say/all-consultations/2023-consultations/pure-turoa-limited/
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January 29, 2024 9:27am
- pdm
  
  Is Pure Turoa an IWI outfit?
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:59am
  - rouppe
    
    I don’t believe so. It’s made up of the owners of TCB, some other ohakune business owners and some (my interpretation) private equity partners.
    
    The entity seems to have support within ohakune township.
    
    Their plans, however, appear to basically be to rip out most of the infrastructure. How that’s an improvement in not sure.
    
    It also grates me personally that Kanoa seems willing to back PT to the tune of millions, but refuse to consider backing a restructured RAL or RSSA bid.
    
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    January 29, 2024 12:05pm
Maggy Wassilieff

Chlöe Swarbrick confirms she is not involved with Golriz Ghahraman shoplifting episode.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/01/green-mp-chl-e-swarbrick-denies-she-s-in-cctv-video-of-golriz-ghahraman-shoplifting-at-scotties-boutique.html
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January 29, 2024 9:31am
- Suze Wainwright
  
  Ah, I was just thinking I hadn’t heard terribly much – about anything – from Chloe lately…
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:39am
- kevn
  
  Maggy… So, she wasn’t at the one of three shops.
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:48am
  - Inandout
    
    kevn, if this is an open Police inquiry these things will be discussed in court.
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:36am
- Opie
  
  Never believe anything untill a politician officially denies it…
  
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  January 29, 2024 11:08am
- MCōs
  
  I don’t know about Golriz, I think Chlöe would kind of stand out in a flash frock shop
  
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  January 29, 2024 6:31pm
imalwaysright

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/mongrel-mob-gang-members-attack-christchurch-hospital-emergency-department-staffer/ZYEJUPPS7ZCTBGXTH3EISAXM3E/

Why doesn’t Reti use the $5.7 million to ask the police to set up satellite stations in hospitals?
There are certainly enough patients and staff to justify a permanent police presence .

The staff and patients are entitled to be in a secure and peaceful environment
Security guards can’t and won’t intervene in gang fights.

And while on the subject, how about a five or ten year mandatory sentence for the aggressors.
We don’t want staff trying to save lives whilst fearing for their own.
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January 29, 2024 10:28am
- Inandout
  
  Ima, Kate gets a police presence as she should. Our major hospitals should also be guarded 24/7.
  https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/19/prince-william-visits-princess-kate-in-london-hospital/
  
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  January 29, 2024 10:43am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Perhaps we could redeploy Arderns security detail to Christchurch hospital .
    
    Which is more important ?
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:52am
- Ghost
  
  Have you been to the ed? I like the idea of security for the staff and patients, but some of the guards couldn’t stop a doughnut from entering their mouth. One I saw at our hospital under covid had a permanent tracheostomy. Current one is rather old. Used to be when a gang member would turn up at the hospital the police weren’t far behind.
  
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  January 29, 2024 10:43am
  - MCōs
    
    I don’t know a lot about the security business, but I suspect it’s a minimum wage occupation & who’s going to get their head kicked in for minimum wages?
    Having said that I’ve spent a bit of time at Middlemore A & E recently and one wouldn’t want to mess with the large security guys I saw there
    
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    January 29, 2024 11:46am
    - NZer In Exile
      
      In 2018 I asked a security guard at a bank in Auckland how much he got paid. Answer: $17 an hour.
      
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      January 29, 2024 7:16pm
      - MCōs
        
        In Bangkok the gold shops pay the police to provide armed protection
        
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        January 29, 2024 9:50pm
  - Piniwi
    
    It might have to be added to the migrant skills list along with so many other non-skilled vacancies that seem so hard to fill. The additional security guards at Christchurch hospital were an odd bunch but would have been fun to watch in action.
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:42pm
- cmm
  
  The biggest problem we have is that the security guards have their hand tied behind their backs with red tape.
  
  Perhaps it is time to face facts: NZ is no longer the society it was. The quaint old ways are not fit for purpose.
  
  In a society like NZ, the police have the monopoly on violence. Cops have weapons and can arrest etc. Nobody else can effectively do do. The deal is that we expect the cops to do this.
  
  If the cops cannot perform this role, then the social contract is broken. Society should be allowed weapons to defend ourselves.
  
  I am not calling for guns. Just allowing people to own pepper sprays etc and defend themselves from criminal acts (theft, assault etc).
  
  Of course anyone deploying a pepper spray, or any other weapon, without good reason should have the book thrown at them.
  
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  January 29, 2024 1:02pm
  - kowtow
    
    ‘Perhaps it is time to face facts: NZ is no longer the society it was. The quaint old ways are not fit for purpose.’
    
    That’s the key to this debate. Things have changed . Why .
    
    people need to seriously reflect on how and why we seem to need so much security .
    
    Hospitals for goodness sake ! Libraries , shops , courts now too . The WINZ permanent guards thing is an over reaction to one incident, but that in itself was a shocker.
    
    Etc
    
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    January 29, 2024 1:24pm
    - MCōs
      
      “that in itself was a shocker.”
      
      That in itself is a bit of an understatement
      Guy went into the Ashburton WINZ in 2014 and killed two women and almost murdered two more
      Prior to that anyone, such as myself, could walk into a WINZ office unimpeded. I’d been into some of them and there were some dodgy characters hanging round & that was just the people signing up for the pension!
      
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      January 29, 2024 2:10pm
Observant Octagenarian

We need to introduce a new word to go alongside “decolonise”. How about “debenefitise”?
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January 29, 2024 10:39am
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  debenefitise”?
  
  Is that a synonym for work/mahi?
  
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  January 29, 2024 3:27pm
Paulus

I have recently become concerned that New Zealand has, like so many other countries, namely such as the USA, France, UK ,Germany and now Australia about the activities of Russia and why we are seeing the now continual movement of disinformation and our media behaviour.
The Internet Research Agency, also known as Glavset, and known in Russian Internet slang as the Trolls from Olgino or Kremlinbots, was a Russian company which was engaged in online propaganda and influence operations on behalf of Russian business and political interests.
It started with involving and manipulating the UK and the IRA originally but is now worldwide using AI particular to transmit what appears to be true information to destabilise a country political party.
Is this why we are seeing the influence of Maori today and the media’s role in denigrating the elected Government which they tried to use their influence via all aspects of the media to do the opposite.
What I see now is that our so called media collect information and publish from organisations which worldwide are suspect as having been stretched to cause unrest.
Look at where they get their articles from and the balance of same, often not wisely. (bottom right hand at end of article). We often use the same ones.
Are we being manipulated by the Russian organisation, as other countries, currently are because it is possible that we are also all being controlled via the unsuspecting media people as we appear to have low levels of intelligence in this area.
I hope our Security People are on to it because I see more unrest in the future that cannot be ameliorated.
I am very much into my very late life so I shall not see it anyway but my families will, I am sure.
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January 29, 2024 10:51am
- Che Guava
  
  We are manipulated by “our” media. The idea that we are being manipulated by “Russia” or some other outside agency is in fact part of the manipulation that “our” media engage in. The fact that most people don’t understand the extent to which they are being deceived shows how effective the deception is.
  
  Because we are systematically lied to, anything that contradicts the lies we are fed cannot be conceded to be true (that would burst the bubble of lies, naturally), so when truth slips through the net, it must be dismissed.
  
  The notion of attributing anything that goes against the narrative “our” side wants us to believe (i.e. the truth) to “Russian bots” or “Russian disinformation” is precisely what you’d expect when we are being lied to ourselves.
  
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  January 29, 2024 11:36am
  - NZer In Exile
    
    “Certain people” here could in fact be state sponsored bots. 😉
    
    “They” sure act like bots!
    
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    January 29, 2024 5:26pm
- cmm
  
  No doubt there are manipulations from out “enemies” (China, Russia etc). Fair enough.
  
  However I am far more concerned about the manipulations from our “friends” – those we ought to be able to trust.
  
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  January 29, 2024 12:13pm
  - MCōs
    
    We don’t have friends, except on the sports field, we have allies
    The Rainbow Warrior episode demonstrated that
    
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    January 29, 2024 2:15pm
- virtualmark
  
  Common sense view:
  * Kiwiblog is the most active political blog in New Zealand.
  * New Zealand is a Five Eyes country, with diplomatic and geo-political status well above what you’d otherwise have for 5 million people in the South Pacific.
  * So China and Russia will certainly have tasked state-sponsored trolls to both monitor the commentary on Kiwiblog, and to post here.
  
  So here’s your fun activity … spot the Russian trolls.
  
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  January 29, 2024 4:44pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    “spot the Russian trolls.”
    
    Stirring up enmity within could come from “the east” (hint hint), from Russia (not sure they have aspirations to control the entire world), or certain fanatical “Islamist” regimes.
    
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    January 29, 2024 5:31pm
  - virtualmark
    
    Fun take: Russian trolls will down-tick a post calling out Russian trolls.
    
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    January 29, 2024 5:35pm
- Jake Dee
  
  …It started with involving and manipulating the UK and the IRA originally but is now worldwide..”
  
  Normally I would try to be a little more charitable but,
  Good God Man! When do you think lies and deception started?
  The old school Christian might say it was when Eve ate the apple. A modern scientific type might say it was when the first amino acid got together with another amino acid. But as long as animals have been able to communicate, they have been able to lie.
  You say that you are an old man, and let you seem to be shocked about this! That is amazing.
  I think it was Socrates (it might have been Plato) who said,
  “All men must die.”
  He might as well have said,
  “All men will lie”
  
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  January 30, 2024 7:48am
Ghost

I don’t really want this kind of person as a doctor, can’t even be fucked to check that the person is ok

A trainee doctor who crashed into a car while trying to overtake it, causing the victim’s vehicle to skid off the road and careen through a fence, carried on driving without checking if the driver was injured or needed help.

Now, he has avoided conviction on two driving charges after a judge ruled convictions could jeopardise the man’s medical career.

Article
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January 29, 2024 11:35am
- cmm
  
  Hmmm, yes and no…
  
  I’d say give him one chance before the courts and if he doesn’t straighten out after this then hang him high.
  
  I had a medical student girlfriend at university and hung around with medics a lot. Most of them hit drugs and booze pretty hard. A few of them had episodes where they lost it completely for a week or month or two.
  
  The worst of these (ie worst in terms of drug consumption) settled down after graduation and is now a well respected medic in Australia.
  
  Another got stoned one night and managed to drive her car off a wharf into Cape Town harbour. I assume she was out looking for drugs, but can’t confirm that. She is now a well respected doctor in Canada – doing good work.
  
  Medical students I have spoken with in NZ tell me that the same goes on in NZ 40 years later.
  
  I think cutting off a person’s career because they did something stupid in their late teens to mid 20s is short sighted. I think society has lost many capable people by doing so (including professionals and politicians).
  
  If you’re still being a dumb arse in your 30s, or continue to misbehave after numerous brushes with the law well that’s an entirely different matter.
  
  If Golly or Kiri had their misadventures in their early 20s I’d say give them a chance. Once. But having that behaviour in 35+ year olds is a different matter, as is repeated offending.
  
  Certainly retrospectively punishing people for what they did many years ago serves no useful purpose (eg. Dave Garrett or Uffindell).
  
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  January 29, 2024 12:34pm
  - Ghost
    
    Agree if they were younger, but at 27 years old to know you have hit a car and to keep driving is wrong.
    
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    January 29, 2024 1:52pm
    - cmm
      
      27 is certainly pushing the boundary for young and stupid.
      But then some extreme organisations like UN Habitat define Youth as 15 to 32.
      
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      January 29, 2024 2:20pm
- info@cruzpro.com
  
  “a judge ruled convictions could jeopardise the man’s medical career”.
  
  A conviction could jeopardize the career of anyone (plumber, electrician, cab-driver, store check-out operator, etc.). So no-one should get convicted of anything?
  
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  January 29, 2024 1:00pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  Doctor was driving a super-sized urban assault vehicle?
  
  From my extensive observations on the road most of these people feel they have a right to drive like entitled assholes.
  
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  January 29, 2024 5:32pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  From the article, it was the defendant’s first longish trip on NZ; and being from Oman is not used to driving on the left. Or, at a guess, driving on crappy roads.
  
  We only have his word that he did not see that his accident caused the victim to spin off the road. But, the judge addressed that point. And, the victim was not injured (albeit doubtlessly shocked after she ploughed through a fence & the airbags did their thing).
  
  I note that he’s on a scholarship from the Oman Govt. Presumably, he will go home at the end of his studies.
  
  On the whole, perhaps the judge has got it right.
  
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  January 29, 2024 6:46pm
kevn

Ghost… I only looked at the article to confirm my initial thoughts.
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January 29, 2024 11:46am
- Keith White
  
  Yes, one of the Protected Ethnic Classes™.
  
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  January 29, 2024 12:01pm
  - MCōs
    
    Spell it out, Keith
    
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    January 29, 2024 2:17pm
    - Keith White
      
      No need, his name and country of origin and the country that funded him to study in our country are all detailed in the article. I’m sure you can find them.
      
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      January 29, 2024 3:18pm
      - MCōs
        
        Let’s not be bashful, Mr W
        He’s apparently a Muslim from Oman from where he got a scholarship to study in NZ.
        
        So, are you suggesting someone had a word with the judge?
        Personally I think this guy got off remarkably lightly or there’s more to this story.
        
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        January 29, 2024 4:46pm
thirteenstars

Interesting call to Michael Laws’ show on the Platform this morning, in which the parent of a 14-year-old Avonside High School student said that at the recent prizegiving the winners were divided into Maori, Pacific, and others groups and each had a separate award ceremony.

Avonside is an all-girl, state school.
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January 29, 2024 12:04pm
- cmm
  
  Did they provide any reason for this?
  
  When I came to NZ in 1992 I was sick of all the shit living in a racially divided society. I thought “Hey, move to NZ. NZ has all its racial problems sorted out.”
  
  32 years later it is obvious that NZ (or should I be saying Aotearoa) is only just getting started.
  
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  January 29, 2024 12:37pm
  - thirteenstars
    
    The caller felt very sad about it.
    
    I think only one conclusion can be drawn. Division creates conflict. Conflict destroys and one thing must be destroyed before another can take its place.
    
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    January 29, 2024 12:49pm
- NothingLeft
  
  Avonside doing a Racism in implying that the Maori and Pacific can’t cut it in competition with Others.
  
  Left wing adopting the bigotry of low expectations as ever.
  
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  January 29, 2024 1:00pm
- mandk
  
  I suspect that, if they didn’t do this, all the prizes would go to kids from Asian families.
  
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  January 29, 2024 4:12pm
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Including the rugby league prize?
    
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    January 29, 2024 6:48pm
  - Piniwi
    
    Yep that’s it as it is known as Asiaside these days.
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:52pm
KH

Brilliant takedown by Chris Trotter of the left and their desire to crush democracy.
https://www.interest.co.nz/public-policy/126095/left%E2%80%99s-belief-intransigent-minorities-will-not-be-electorally-punished#comment-1643150
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January 29, 2024 12:20pm
- RoboRob
  
  Strangely, because everyone else seems to think its excellent, I found the article confusing. On one hand Chris argues that you cant ignore the voter bases wishes. He also argues that minor parties shouldn’t be allowed to wag the tail (the Scottish Greens to the SNP).
  
  So is it that National should ignore Act because people don’t like the tail wagging the dog? Does he think the public don’t want a treaty referendum? I hardly think that’s the argument he was trying to make.
  
  I assume he meant National shouldn’t ignore Act because the voter base is with them. But if that’s the case why raise case against the tail wagging dog?
  
  Perhaps I am just being dense, certainly the comments seemed to think it was an excellent article. Personally I don’t think it was his best work 🙂
  
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  January 29, 2024 1:43pm
  - Grunter
    
    I too found it to be a bit ‘all over the place’.
    
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    January 29, 2024 3:09pm
- KH
  
  Fair point’s Roborob and Grunter. But maybe Trotter was assuming there was broad support, much more than ACT’s direct vote. There is more support I am sure. Certainly all of NZF, most of the Nat voters and more than a few Labour voters.
  Wayne Mapp here on Kiwiblog foolishly said it was “not up to Seymour to unilaterally change the treaty.”
  Another example of the absurd efforts of Anne Salmond et all to suppress even a discussion.
  Which was Trotters point.
  Seymour of course is as far from unilateral as you can get. A national discussion, forming up a proposal and a referendum.
  
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  January 29, 2024 5:13pm
hullkiwi

….and nowadays Lady Justice in NZ is no longer blind, holding the sword and scales of justice….she is just outright biased based on the decision from New Plymouth on Friday….

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime/trainee-doctor-who-drove-dangerously-and-caused-a-crash-on-sh3-avoids-conviction/4S5MXBJS3ZHC7OTAKUXYOYBKCM/#:~:text=Now%2C%20he%20has%20avoided%20conviction,at%20the%20Rapanui%20passing%20lane.

Justice was not seen to be done here. The Police prosecutor clearly did not care whether they fulfilled their duties…..

The victim did not receive any form of justice…

Justice Greig…the least said….

What an appalling outcome, any way you want to look at this case…
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January 29, 2024 1:40pm
- Keith White
  
  But the ‘trainee doctor’ had an even more effective race card to play than medical school MAPAS candidates.
  
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  January 29, 2024 3:19pm
surfing

I believe the police have already apprehended the kids who robbed the Mt Maunganui Bayfair Michael Hill store. Not sure if they got back the stolen goods.
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January 29, 2024 1:42pm
surfing

So a 15 yr old boy is prepared to kill someone who told him to stop torturing a bird. . .

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350161366/seagull-chips-and-car-park-stoush

Life is cheap in dodgy aotearoa. The 15 yr old needs serious jail time, regardless of his skin colour.
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January 29, 2024 1:45pm
kevn

Disposable vaping being addressed (but not until 2025) in the UK.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13017027/rishi-sunak-vapes-ban-vaping-uk.html
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January 29, 2024 1:52pm
- Inandout
  
  kev, look at the plastic used in those products yet the greens moaned about and got rid of plastic straws.
  
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  January 29, 2024 2:24pm
Warren

Another senior MP deserts or retires from the sinking ship known as Labour
with parting shots at the Coalition Government.
Labour MP Rino Tirikatene represented Ti TaiTonga for over a decade doing very little for Maori apart from following in the footsteps his whanau he wants to shoot his mouth off criticizing the Coalition Government with this message.
I leave Parliament with a warning for the Coalition Te Iwi Maori will not roll over, we are not going back in the box.
If the Coalition unwinds the progress of the last Six Years, they risk a backlash that will which will make sure they are a “One term wonder.”
Just like the Maori Party all wind with no substance.
https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/01/26/labour-mp-quits-parliament-after-12-years/
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January 29, 2024 2:02pm
- MCōs
  
  He’s hardly a ‘senior’ MP anymore
  
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  January 29, 2024 2:43pm
  - Keith White
    
    I’m sure he’s got a GoldCard 🙂
    
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    January 29, 2024 3:59pm
    - MCōs
      
      Not by a long way
      
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      January 29, 2024 9:52pm
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  See my greenstone/jade mate? Mine is bigger than yours.
  
  9 1
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  January 29, 2024 2:52pm
  - Piniwi
    
    Obviously even native leftie politicians are effected by the inflated price of greenstone and have to settle for a bigger lump of bone to dangle around their neck. First thing one notices apart from the size is that they have no idea which way is up with that impression consolidated when/if they open their mouth.
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:20pm
- Chris Nisbet
  
  Umm, doesn’t he realise we voted for them because we _want_ them to unwind the “progress” of the last six years?
  
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  January 29, 2024 3:18pm
  - Libertarians are right
    
    I think you misunderstand. The “one term government” isn’t because the people didn’t vote for it. It’s because the activists will cause so much harm to the people of this country and bully ordinary New Zealanders so much that they will hand over their rights just so they can go back to living their lives. The media will ensure the blame goes to National for their acts of terrorism.
    
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    January 29, 2024 3:56pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      ” activists will cause so much harm to the people of this country and bully ordinary New Zealanders so much that they will hand over their rights just so they can go back to living their lives”
      
      “Go back to” living their ever shrinking quality of life.
      
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      January 29, 2024 5:37pm
- Countrygirl
  
  These MPs all make sure they have done their 9 years before they ditch. I wish they hadn’t had the temerity to stand at the last election
  
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  January 29, 2024 4:56pm
  - MCōs
    
    What’s the significance of nine years?
    If it’s a generous pension – that’s long gone
    
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    January 29, 2024 9:54pm
  - Ghost
    
    He was elected in 2011, so he’s done more than 9 years. He got in on the list so leaving now causes no extra costs.
    
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    January 29, 2024 10:07pm
- fightingtemeraire
  
  A Tirikatene sat in that seat for 70+ years.
  
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  January 29, 2024 5:05pm
- greybeard
  
  So he lost his seat, got back in as a list MP, and after 4 months chucks it in ?
  What a waste of space. And time. And money.
  And worst of all, just look at his replacement……
  
  8 1
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  January 29, 2024 5:16pm
- Piniwi
  
  Don’t let the door hit in your broad Dari air on the way out.
  
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  January 29, 2024 10:12pm
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3qo-gQxTUI
Setting the record straight on ACT’s Treaty Principles Bill.
David sits down to set the record straight on ACT’s Treaty Principles Bill.
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January 29, 2024 2:52pm
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErYOZkTxnl4
“Wellington City Councillor Tony Randle Updates Us on Water Woes.
Michael Laws speaks to Wellington City Councillor Tony Randle who updates us on water woes.
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January 29, 2024 2:52pm
Chuck Bird

FYI

Trainee doctor who drove dangerously and caused a crash on SH3 avoids conviction

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime/trainee-doctor-who-drove-dangerously-and-caused-a-crash-on-sh3-avoids-conviction/4S5MXBJS3ZHC7OTAKUXYOYBKCM/
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January 29, 2024 2:55pm
- Keith White
  
  Because he is neither stale nor pale, he’s gotta trump race card to play.
  
  Also: the penalty for drinking alcohol in Oman is imprisonment from a month to one year, and significant fines. And being intoxicated in public is strictly prohibited.
  
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  January 29, 2024 3:20pm
  - kevn
    
    Keith… and I’m guessing, as soon as qualified, he be gone from NZ.
    
    9 0
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    January 29, 2024 3:36pm
    - Keith White
      
      One cannot know for sure, but since he got a scholarship from his govt to train in NZ, there is going to be some quid pro quo.
      
      And of course, he totally needed to take a training place from a NZ citizen candidate because, it’s be rayciss if he did not get it. / sarc.
      
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      January 29, 2024 3:43pm
      - All_on_Red
        
        He wants to be a Surgeon but is too thick to realise he ran someone off the road…
        Poor Oman- they aint getting the best help.
        
        9 1
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        January 29, 2024 4:18pm
      - virtualmark
        
        I’m worried that (a) he wants to be a surgeon but (b) he couldn’t cope with driving on the left instead of the right.
        
        One day someone in Oman is going to wake up post-op with the wrong hip replaced.
        
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        January 29, 2024 4:47pm
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Keith, I flicked through the NZH article; did not see a reference to booze.
    
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    January 29, 2024 6:58pm
Grunter

TEX/MEX Border Issue…

You know thing’s are getting serious when the words “patriots” and “Biblical” get mentioned…!!

God’s Army on it’s way in 100’s or 1,000’s of Kenworths – we’ve got ourselves a convoy! Come in Rubber Duck.

“A trucker convoy of “patriots” is heading to the U.S. border with Mexico next week, as the standoff between Texas and the federal government intensifies.”

The organizers of the “Take Our Border Back” convoy have called themselves “God’s army” and say they’re on a mission to stand up against the “globalists” who they claim are conspiring to keep U.S. borders open and destroy the country.

“This is a biblical, monumental moment that’s been put together by God,” one convoy organizer said on a recent planning call. “We are besieged on all sides by dark forces of evil,” said another. “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God. It is time for the remnant to rise.” (The remnant, from the Book of Revelation, are the ones who remain faithful to Jesus Christ in times of crisis).
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January 29, 2024 4:35pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  The Blues Brothers were also on a mission from God.
  
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  January 29, 2024 6:52pm
- kiwikidsnz
  
  If God’s the answer they’re probably asking the wrong question
  
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  January 29, 2024 8:12pm
- MCōs
  
  Maybe the migrants consider themselves God’s army too?
  
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  January 29, 2024 9:58pm
Keith White

I’ll try to keep this short (I’ll fail) because it’s anecdotal and very personal. But as background for the reasons this Omani-DUI-medboy irks me so much is:

When a literal half-century ago I got into a NZ medical school, the process was very simple
– submit your marks
– write one page (or less) on why you wanted to be a doctor
– send a photograph
– attend an interview (if invited – not everyone was, I wasn’t)

The cut-off was purely on the marks for university scholarship, with two exceptions
— so-called Polynesian Preference types got in with tens of marks less
— so-called mature students who had already done a degree in something else, got in with some marks less, but I/we didn’t know how many

When we were 17 and 18, racism wasn’t even a noun let alone an adjective, the only things we knew for sure about the PP’s was (a) they didn’t have to have studied as hard/have anywhere near as good Scholarship marks as us pale peasants, and (b) they didn’t have to have the same passing grades as us in the rest of their years at med school.

Well anyway.

The PP ones in my class all went into public academic health and didn’t look after patients in the community once they had done their qualifying year. That did not of course stop the bien-pensant types in academia from doubling down and bringing in yet more PP’s to look after the PP patients – but they didn’t go into clinical practice either, they also went into academic “medicine”.

The other thing was that we were all warned quite scarily – and I for one took it to heart as did almost all my contemporaries – that if we got caught smoking grass or driving after drinking we “might” still be able to pass our exams and get our degrees, but we would NEVER (yeah, SHOUTING ALLCAPS) never get a license to practice. So dire that even at ages 17-19, we were sufficiently impressed… that of course we went partying still, but we always had what later became to be known as a ‘designated driver’. Usually someone who didn’t drink anyway and was not idiotically inclined, but we could rely on to take us home (or let us sleep it off at Party Base in Piha or Clevedon).

The corollaries of this:

1. If you graduated without melanin-preferential assisted marking, it was because you could learn, could study, could recall, could explain, could diagnose, and could overall prove that you had a fundamental base of knowledge which would help your patients.

The PP-others, well, they weren’t obliged to demonstrate that to the same degree. To these days I still can’t help wondering if a doctor I see did get melanin-based preference and does he or she really know their stuff. You may think it’s a defect in me; I think it’s a defect in the “system”.

I wonder how the PPs really feel about it deep inside…

2. Just like Kiri Allen & Golly G. Co – if you set yourself up as being a judge on others, you’d better damn well be able to cut the mustard yourself.

Back in those days when we didn’t have hepatitis B vaccines, if you got a needlestick injury and became hepatitis B positive as a result of that, your choices were either going to psychiatry or pathology, you weren’t allowed to have direct patient contact. you could still graduate, but something that was absolutely not your fault could derail your career the rest of your life. If you went drinking and driving which absolutely was your fault unless someone literally held you down and poured Glenfiddich down your throat (no one ever did that to me… I had to pay for mine…) well then you got what you earned. It didn’t matter whether the punishment was deserved / it didn’t matter whether it was excessive / and it didn’t matter whether a whole lot of other people did it and didn’t get caught – play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Precisely why anybody should trust crash-and-run away-boy’s judgement as a doctor eludes me, but then, I’m not likely to have to worry about that in the few years left on the planet haha.

/Rant off 🙂
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January 29, 2024 4:52pm
- DimChappie
  
  He caused a crash and kept going, but there is no mention of alcohol in the article.
  
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  January 29, 2024 7:13pm
  - Keith White
    
    DimChappie – You are quite correct – thank you for the correction.
    
    Mod – could you please delete the DUI references in my post.
    
    [Mod – done]
    
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    January 29, 2024 8:06pm
Ghost

Ah, mr president, you are the sitting president, not trump

https://twitter.com/DailyNoahNews/status/1751688330708676841
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January 29, 2024 6:02pm
Gravelroad

1 Ewes with yet another dramatic story this evening about the tragic beaching and death of a whale – accompanied by funeral singing by certain interested onlookers.
And the sombre warning at the start of the “news” item that some people viewing might find it distressing.
I’m starting to think that this is being spun as a connection to climate change.
Or maybe the whales are protesting about challenges to the Treaty , or something.
Why is a whale coming to the end of its natural life such a big deal?
Why is it so much more of a tragedy than a beautiful horse dying? At least a horse has spent its life being useful.
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January 29, 2024 6:22pm
- fightingtemeraire
  
  Apparently, it was a juvenile whale.
  
  Why don’t we get the wailing and the gnashing of teeth when another Maori kiddie gets killed???
  
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  January 29, 2024 6:26pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  The whale in question is thought to be a juvenile. But, I don’t disagree with the thrust of your view.
  
  I note that the local iwi are taking the whale away for burial in an undisclosed venue.
  
  Am I the only one feeling a bit uncomfortable about the secrecy here?
  
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  January 29, 2024 7:00pm
  - kevn
    
    Never… Chainsawing the jaw bone out needs to done somewhere discreet.
    
    6 1
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    January 29, 2024 7:26pm
    - Piniwi
      
      Yep mate big demand for any angle neck danglers for native politicians, DIE hires and such.
      
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      January 29, 2024 10:34pm
Ghost

Hmmm, well the vaccines weren’t free, tax payers paid for them. And people did get side effects from them

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/wairarapa-nurse-fired-over-anti-vax-posts-may-need-to-pay-20k/SGA2U6XL7ZHYBBHH2IY2UVBY2E/
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January 29, 2024 7:13pm
- kevn
  
  Crowdfunding opportunity.
  
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  January 29, 2024 7:26pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  In what kind of f’d up sh**hole could that happen? Oh wait.
  
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  January 29, 2024 8:26pm
Inandout

For DG.
https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/027d7c4d470b93080d8fa49bef203b169a3b77026f4c3c2dc782dc3312a3852c.jpg
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January 29, 2024 8:31pm

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