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August 6, 2025 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 06 August 2025

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Cassandra

The UK’s publicly funded Royal Ballet and Opera has caved in to pro-Palestine activists and cancelled a planned production in Israel.
A 2026 run of Tosca in partnership with the Israeli Opera in Tel Aviv will no longer go ahead because of pressure from RBO staff. This is the outfit which had a chorus member flap a Palestine flag on stage recently.

Chlöe is reportedly delighted. “We’ll get these Jews where it hurts, hitting their culture” she may well have thought. That the members and artists of Israeli Opera and likely its audience would never vote Likud has never occurred to her of course.
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August 6, 2025 8:01am
- Phronesis
  
  An excellent example of why such outfits should never receive tax payer funds.
  
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  August 6, 2025 9:06am
  - Wandering Star
    
    Many taxpayers support Palestine and/or oppose Israel. Maybe even most. Pro-Zionism is not a widely held attitude, accept in what are characteristically Boomer conservative echo chambers, or in Jewish circles. What you really mean is that taxpayer funding should not go to groups who disagree with your niche concerns, like your supporting Israel no matter what they do.
    
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    August 6, 2025 1:47pm
Maggy Wassilieff

80 Years ago

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/atomic-bomb-hiroshima
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August 6, 2025 8:02am
- David Garrett
  
  Maggy: please tell me you are not one of those who think that dropping the bombs was not justified?
  
  The Americans estimated they would suffer a million casualties in a land invasion – and the Japanese would suffer five million.
  
  They were training little kids to attack the Americans with sharpened bamboo stakes. They were prepared to fight to the last child.
  Even after the first bomb and talk of surrender there was a faction in the army which advocated deposing the Emporer and fighting on.
  
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  August 6, 2025 8:12am
  - Cassandra
    
    And of course Australian and New Zealand troops would also have been committed, with massive casualties. While one could debate the targets – a major military base instead of Nagasaki? – dropping the bombs saved millions of lives.
    
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    August 6, 2025 8:22am
  - Nigel Kearney
    
    Mass slaughter of civilians in order to demoralise the enemy and persuade them to stop fighting is a strategy that could certainly work in some situations. Do you think we should accept any nation doing this whenever they believe they can save lives in the long run by doing so?
    
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    August 6, 2025 8:27am
    - Cassandra
      
      Under the same circumstances YES.
      
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      August 6, 2025 8:29am
    - David Garrett
      
      Nigel: There was no “mass slaughter of civilians ” at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Far more died in the firebombings of Tokyo.
      
      There would have been mass slaughter of civilians if a land invasion had been forced on the allies. As I said above, the Americans estimated there would have been five million Japanese casualties, 95% of them civilians.
      
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      August 6, 2025 8:42am
      - cmm
        
        DG: We need to be careful how we use these projected estimates. They are likely inflated as a justification for using the bomb (both before using it and after using it).
        
        I think the numbers are inflated because the Operation August Storm a few hundred thousand civilians and over 1 million Japanese soldiers were killed or captured.
        
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        August 6, 2025 9:35am
      - NeverMindTheBollocks
        
        David, there was mass slaughter of civilians at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, both on the day and for years afterwards.
        
        Just because more died in Tokyo does not make it otherwise.
        
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        August 6, 2025 9:55am
      - Tom Hunter
        
        The American calculations were based on the hard evidence not just of Japanese defences but the experience of previous island battles from Tarawa, Saipan, Pelielu, Iwo Jima, culminating at Okinawa, each worse than the previous one.
        
        By the time of Okinawa the Japanese were under no illusions that they could beat America so the strategy was different; the Americans were stunned to find no opposition on the beaches, and suspicious, and they were right to be, the fighting started when they moved inland to three defensive lines the Japanese had set up.
        
        It was brutal, grinding stuff and the Japanese intended that, figuring that if they killed anough Americans, even in losing, they’d convince the US not to invade Japan itself.
        
        And the thing is that their strategy succeeded, just not in the way they had imagined.
        
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        August 6, 2025 1:00pm
      - Colville
        
        Tom.
        Yes they had very hard evidence post Okinawa. Circa 30:1 death ratio.
        
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        August 6, 2025 2:10pm
      - Dave
        
        For [email protected].
        
        Japan had densely populated, narrow coastal plains, backed by hilly terrain, the latter ideal for defensive war. Manchuria had, apart from some hilly and swampy border areas, relatively unpopulated, wide open plains ideal for mobile warfare. The Pacific battle grounds were much more confined with a few predictable landing places, sometimes densely populated, eg Okinawa, sometimes very hilly, eg, Peleliu.
        
        Under these circumstances, which projections are more likely to be accurate for fighting on the sacred soil of Japan, especially operations requiring support by ships, vulnerable to kamikaze attack?
        
        Edit: see Tom Hunter’s comments @ 1pm.
        
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        August 6, 2025 2:20pm
  - sungsamning
    
    Dad, and two uncles were doubtless very grateful to Harry Truman. Nukes kept a lot of boomers off the battlefield. Vietnam War aside. Well done Harry Truman.
    
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    August 6, 2025 8:36am
  - kowtow
    
    Indeed , elements of the Japanese army seized the Imperial Palace trying to prevent the famous surrender recording by the Emperor.
    
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    August 6, 2025 8:39am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    Maggy: please tell me you are not one of those who think that dropping the bombs was not justified?
    
    You forget that I am Quaker educated/inculcated.
    
    I can’t see how to justify the bombing of civilians.
    
    Once I would have had found it hard to justify the killing of any human, but the horrors the Japanese Imperial Army wrought upon the Chinese and Koreans before they advanced South is likewise unjustifiable.
    
    Perhaps a targeted bombing of the Imperial Palace and Japanese High Command offices could have achieved the same outcome.
    
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    August 6, 2025 8:53am
    - David Garrett
      
      Maggy: No, that would have made no difference. As I said in my second comment above, when there was talk of surrender after the first bomb was dropped there was serious discussions involving deposing the emperor and fighting on. “Deposing” may well have meant killing him. So taking him out would have achieved nothing.
      
      But I respect your view, much as a I disagree with it.
      
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      August 6, 2025 9:02am
    - rockape
      
      Soldiers rarely chose to go to war. Governments decide on war and soldiers do their will. So wouldn’t it be the Quaker answer to kill the governments as they are the guilty ones?
      
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      August 6, 2025 9:03am
      - Maggy Wassilieff
        
        So wouldn’t it be the Quaker answer to kill the governments
        
        No…
        Friendly persuasion is the Quaker way…
        
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        August 6, 2025 9:15am
      - G152
        
        Dont ever bring sense to a discussion involving a religious group.
        
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        August 6, 2025 9:51am
      - rouppe
        
        Soldiers rarely chose to go to war.
        
        Really? People who join the armed forces know that going to war is their purpose.
        
        When I approached the RNZAF in 1980 the first thing the recruiter said to me was “What do you think you’ll be trained to do?”. My reply was “fly”. His was “no, you will be trained to kill people”.
        
        Turned out I was too tall for flight training so it was moot.
        
        Where I will agree with you is that my thinking at the time was “I’ll join, do my 20 years, and be able to retire at 40. The rnzaf fast jets have never fired a shot in anger and if I do I’d rather be in a plane than sitting in the mud on the ground”.
        
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        August 6, 2025 10:05am
      - MCōs
        
        “Soldiers rarely chose to go to war.”
        Since WWII all Kiwis who have served overseas have been volunteers
        
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        August 6, 2025 10:09am
      - Flossie
        
        Not saying you’re wrong about all soldiers since WW2 have been volunteers as I definitely recall even quite late in the 1960s birthday ballots making service for some compulsory. Could any of those men/boys have refused overseas service?
        
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        August 6, 2025 11:55am
      - rockape
        
        Soldiers volunteer to serve their country, but it’s the country that sends them to war.
        
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        August 6, 2025 12:02pm
      - RalphT
        
        Flossie,
        
        I believe that one of the early acts of the Labour government elected in November 1972 was to do away with compulsory military training (just months before I had to put my name down for the ballot). I think it was six weeks training for a couple of years but no requirement to serve overseas. The troops who went to Vietnam were all volunteers.
        
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        August 6, 2025 12:26pm
      - Flossie
        
        Thank you RalphT
        
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        August 6, 2025 1:34pm
    - kiwikidsnz
      
      I’ve visited Japan several times for work & pleasure. I’ve known a few Japanese well.
      
      While I accept that the war & japanese imperial & military minds needed to be speedily forced to a close by demonstrating overwhelming allied power, I’ve thought before that dropping a first bomb on the top of their sacred Mt Fuji might have brought parties to the table without wilfully massacring more civilians.
      
      Easy to speculate in hindsight, I wasn’t there & too much blood had already been shed for niceties
      
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      August 6, 2025 9:34am
      - David Garrett
        
        Kiwikidz: detonsting a bomb on the top of Mt Fuju wouldn’t hqve achieved anything
        
        I am no physicist but from the little I know about nuclear weapons those first bombs were mere firecrackers compared with the thermo-nuclear devices which came later.
        
        The A bombs might have knocked. A Few feet off the summit – and what would that prove?
        
        As others have noted, the allies considered a “demonstration” at sea, but again that wouldn’t have proved anything. Wiping out a whole city certainly did – but they still needed to do it a second time to force Nippon to surrender.
        
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        August 6, 2025 3:10pm
    - stewmar
      
      The Imperial Palace is in the centre of Tokyo. Go figure.
      
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      August 6, 2025 9:41am
    - Tom Hunter
      
      I suggest you read two sources on this.
      
      The Making Of The Atomic Bomb (1987), by Richard Rhodes.
      They considered things like exploding one offshore from Tokyo after warning the Japanese. As for targeting the Imperial Palace, thank god they didn’t because it was only the Emperor who force a surrender. His military were quite happy to fight on, “A hundred million souls for the Emperor” and all that.
      
      “Thank God for the Atom Bomb”, an essay written in 1981 by historian and WWII veteran, Paul Fussell
      
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      August 6, 2025 9:53am
      - Colville
        
        The whole pre war Japanese expansionist policy was driven by the generals taking power away from the Emperor so I cant see how topping him late in the piece would have done anything.
        
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        August 6, 2025 1:34pm
    - Mr Nobody NZ
      
      The Imperial Palace was discussed as a possible target however considered as a target however decided against.
      
      There is a summary of the Target Committee Meetings available at https://bitl.to/4vEg which make an interesting read and outlines that the target selection criteria was based on:
      (1) they be important targets in a large urban area of more than three miles in diameter,
      (2) they be capable of being damaged effectively by a blast, and
      (3) they are unlikely to be attacked by next August.
      
      Its also worth noting that Nagasaki was not considered a primary target (Kyoto and Hiroshima) and was only bombed due to Kyoto being obscured by cloud.
      
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      August 6, 2025 10:14am
    - Hugh Jarse
      
      MCos, sorry accidentally reported your 10.09 post. My reply is that soldiers that have served overseas may be volunteers but the government of the day legally commits to sending troops, volunteers or not, otherwise they are mercenaries.
      
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      August 6, 2025 11:55am
    - Tom Hunter
      
      I can’t see how to justify the bombing of civilians.
      
      And just on that note. Rhodes devotes a considerable chunk of the book to the development of the strategy of aerial bombing of cities in the leadup to the war and during the war itself.
      
      As incredible as it may sound, particularly to a Quaker, there were advocates in the 1920’s and 30’s who thought this would be a less awful way to win a war, compared to the slaughter of soldiers in WWI, where civilians were only hit as they had been in previous wars, by having their homes in the path of an Army. The technology of the day was still too primitive to attack effectively much beyond the front lines.
      
      But even by the late 20’s, airpower had developed such that it was believed that “the bomber always got through”, and thus factories could be bombed, ending the war by denying war material to troops. There were some who even argued that Armies would merely be occupiers, and perhaps not even that.
      
      A quick war that would kill soldiers and civilians but in vastly less numbers than WWI, and even then there were politicians and even military people who very much objected to the idea of bombing civilians.
      
      But Rhodes points out that the technology ran away from the logic in WWII; vastly more bombs could be dropped but the aiming tech was lousy and since Britain and the US couldn’t invade Europe until mid-1944 it seemed that carpet bombing of cities was the only way of attacking Germany – supported by public anger at how the Germans had deliberately bombed civilians from Poland to London.
      
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      August 6, 2025 1:13pm
      - Colville
        
        Bombing out the industrial plant worked in Germany but didn’t in Japan as there were tens of thousands of home cottage factory’s making things for the war effort. So they firebombed.
        Very different culture (for manufacturing) and the Pacific war didnt rely on tanks etc like Europe did*.
        
        *but in the end lack of navy power screwed them.
        
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        August 6, 2025 1:38pm
      - kowtow
        
        TH
        
        Yes , many people aren’t aware of the bomber theory , that as you say “the bomber will always get through” and the advocates of that , and there were many genuinely believed that wars could be won ( shortened) using the bomber .
        
        Harris was one such and held an honest belief that this would be a quick way to end such terrible wars, forcing a surrender . Dresden must also be seen in that context .
        
        The Allies in practise still could not do precision bombing , because of enemy activity . First their fighter activity taking a huge toll ( for much of the war the bomber crews had no escort over enemy territory ) and so could not attack with precision ( till they got the P51 Mustangs , Cadillac of the skies) (( cue Young Christain Bale Empire of the Sun))
        
        Similarly the Nazis devoted huge resources to anti aircraft defences , the flak then also making precision bombing nigh on impossible in many instances .
        
        Anyway as to what happened , to quote Harris ;
        
        They sowed the wind …….
        
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        August 6, 2025 2:02pm
  - igm
    
    See the lowlife trolling pest is down voting early again. Not too hard identifying the loser.
    
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    August 6, 2025 9:13am
  - cmm
    
    DG: I think we really have to be careful of just drinking the American line. We should look at the wider picture.
    
    Remember that the Americans were not the only people in the war (any more than they were the only people at D-Day), but the English-language textbooks push that line.
    
    The Soviet invasion of Manchuria in Operation August Storm (August 1945) was Japan’s largest actual defeat that really put the nail in Japan’s coffin. There are some reasons to believe that the Americans rushed dropping the bomb so that they could squeeze it in before the war ended.
    
    Logistically speaking, the nukes were an abysmal failure. Had the same resources be put into building planes and regular bombs they would have achieved far more. For example, the firebombing of Tokyo, using conventional weapons, created far more destruction.
    
    https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/the-soviet-invasion-of-manchuria-led-to-japans-greatest-defeat/
    
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    August 6, 2025 9:24am
    - Colville
      
      cmm.
      
      The Manhattan Project wasnt aimed at ending the Pacific War it was aimed at being first to have the Bomb as the Allies were very aware that when the dust settled Russia was going to be a problem and the Allies needed to own the biggest stick possible to keep the Russian bear in Russia.
      
      An invasion of mainland Japan would have been a bloodbath, the Allies would have been forced to use scorched earth or starvation as there was no appetite for more losses. The Japanese civilians had shown they were willing to die fighting during the Battle of Okinawa, they would self suicide or be coerced into suicide. 200,000 civilians died with 100,000 troops IIRC.
      
      The atrocities the Japanese were guilty of before and during WW2 , the culturally different fighting styles and the difference in the treatment of prisoners lead to extreme hatred of the Japanese amongst the Allies in the Pacific.
      
      Its no surprise that given the opportunity to close it out they chose to go nuclear. I wholeheartedly agree with the decision.
      
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      August 6, 2025 9:55am
    - Tom Hunter
      
      For example, the firebombing of Tokyo, using conventional weapons, created far more destruction.
      
      And didn’t end the war. The Japanese just shrugged their shoulders and carried on, much as the British did during the Blitz, and the Germans after Hamburg.
      
      Curtis Le May, who was leading the entire bombing effort, said that they’d run out of targets by late 1945 and was, by then, convinced that his plan of winning by the air would not work.
      
      Other options:
      – Invasion: millions die.
      – Blockade + continuous bombing: millions die, almost all Japanese.
      – Atomic bomb: hundreds of thousands die, but the shock of this being done by single bombs might finally break the Japanese will to resist.
      
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      August 6, 2025 9:59am
      - David Garrett
        
        Tom H: You make excellent points. I mentioned the death toll from fire bombing Tokyo in my first comment.
        
        Whether a land invasion would have cost 1 million US casualties or “only” a couple of hundred thousand is beside the point: the little fuckers were not going to give up, and and regardless of the US casualties, tens of thousands of Japanese civilians – many of them children – would have died.
        
        If a GI was confronted with a fanatic teenager trying to kill him with a sharpened bamboo stake, said GI would have had no choice but to kill him – or at least shoot to wound. No Tazers in 1945.
        
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        August 6, 2025 11:44am
      - cmm
        
        The firebombing of Tokyo was just a few months before the end of the war and Japan was still reeling from that at the end of the war. Yes, it was highly effective.
        
        Logistically it was highly effective – lots more bang for the buck than the two nukes.
        
        People seldom realise the amount of resources put into building the nukes. That required the building of three or 4 towns and the employment of tens of thousands of people.
        
        If the same effort had instead been put into building Superfortress bombers and conventional bombs they could have achieved far more damage than was achieved with the bombs.
        
        That is why I say they were a logistical failure – far more could have been done with the same resources.
        
        From a logistical basis, the greatest leap forward was the proximity fuse (VT fuse). That was the greatest force multiplier on the Pacific.
        
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        August 6, 2025 2:23pm
    - Dave
      
      Some greatly simplified comments.
      
      1) The Soviet invasion of Manchuria came as a great shock to the Japanese government, despite the warnings of their ambassador in Moscow, as it badly dented the government’s expectation that the USSR would act as an independent mediator in a negotiated peace after the J army had fought the invaders to a bloody stalemate, but the Soviet armies did not threaten the home islands.
      
      2) The military were prepared to fight on, but there was considerable fear of civilian revolt against the government and the emperor as conditions became increasingly unbearable – eight million homeless from the non-atomic bombings with no realistic prospect of sustained shelter or food, civilian calorie intake for some time at starvation level with no prospect of improvement, especially as the J rice bowl, Hokkaido, was now largely cut off from the rest of J.
      
      3) Now J faced a new technology which required just a few planes able to annihilate remaining cities, rather than the huge fleet of aircraft, and do so largely independently of bombing accuracy and weather conditions on the ground, unlike fire bombing. J courage, in which the military commanders had faith, could not prevail against atomic bombs, so a good excuse to make peace without sacrificing honour.
      
      4) 300,000 Allied POWs would have been executed to free up their guards for combat duty.
      
      Two useful readings for the critics of the nuclear attacks: Truman and the Cult of Hiroshima, by Robert P Newman; less scholarly, but highly readable and covering a lot of ground, Atomic Salvation by Tom Lewis.
      
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      August 6, 2025 10:54am
    - kowtow
      
      The allegedly huge Japanese army in Manchuria , as I’ve read , existed largely on paper . It had been stripped away to strengthen other threatened parts of their Empire.
      
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      August 6, 2025 3:22pm
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    “The Americans estimated they would suffer a million casualties in a land invasion – and the Japanese would suffer five million”
    
    Modelling, eh
    
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    August 6, 2025 9:40am
  - Michael Johnston
    
    It is possible both to recognise the tragic algebra in favour of using atomic weapons to end the war, and to lament their world-historical implications. That is where I stand.
    
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    August 6, 2025 10:21am
  - Ra Henare
    
    The elephant in the room that everyone seems to ignore.
    USSR.
    Having finished the war in Manchuria, the Soviets had a million men available for an invasion of Japan.
    
    The plan was to start the advance to Japan on August 8th !!!!! This, was as or more decisive than the bombs in prompting surrender, as Japan feared Soviet occupation. Japanese military records show panic over Soviet advances.
    
    Truman also didn’t want the Soviets to occupy Japan and “”against advice”” decided to drop the bomb on the port of Nagasaki before August 8th (dropped on the 6th).
    
    As a signal, and show of strength to the Soviets, Hiroshima a military centre was bombed on the 8th.
    
    The story about a calculation it was saving 500,000 to a million ALLIED lives was the best cover story.
    
    As always, war generates great effort in selling a story.
    
    I am seeing it in action here regarding the border clash.
    
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    August 6, 2025 12:39pm
    - Don Beckett
      
      Hiroshima was bombed before Nagasaki.
      
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      August 6, 2025 3:51pm
      - Ra Henare
        
        Thankyou
        Sorry. My error.
        Yes Hiroshima on 6th and Nagasaki on the 9th!
        
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        August 6, 2025 4:39pm
  - Wandering Star
    
    “The Americans estimated they would suffer a million casualties in a land invasion – and the Japanese would suffer five million.”
    
    Of course they’d advance such wild estimates. After all, they dropped two nuclear weapons over civilian targets, so they had to justify their actual barbarism by positing such hypotheticals.
    
    The facts are, combined with the carpet firebombing of civilians in both Japan and Germany with more conventional ordnances, the Allies only escaped prosecution for war crimes because they won.
    
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    August 6, 2025 1:54pm
- Jack5
  
  But 80 years later ….
  
  Japan will build 11 Mogami-class frigates for Australia in a $A10 billion deal. Mitsubishi Industries will build the ships. It beat Germany’s ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems for the contract.
  
  Australian Defence Minister Richard Marles said of the Mogami-class frigate: “It is a next-generation vessel. It is stealthy. It has 32 vertical launch cells capable of launching long-range missiles.”
  
  Marles said Australia had a close strategic alignment with Japan.
  
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  August 6, 2025 8:12am
  - rangitoto
    
    NZ should have got in on the same deal. I believe only the first three are being built in Japan and AUS is supposed to build the rest in WA. NZ should have got Japan to build 3 or 4 extra for us. Probably would have lowered the unit cost.
    
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    August 6, 2025 3:44pm
- JimBobJoe
  
  Having walked along the banks of the river crossed by the famous bridge with the shadows of once living people, ….stood on the plaque designating the hypocentre of the blast and looking up in to clear winter sky, ….. meandered up through the Peace garden and then into the Peace Museum….. where I was moved to tears by the video interviews of some of those who were there in 1945….
  
  I say: Militarily justified in terms of civilian and military lives saved but still a horror, along with Nagasaki, we should never visit on ourselves ever again
  
  Never Again
  
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  August 6, 2025 9:26am
  - Colville
    
    Never Again
    
    Didnt they call WW1 the War to end all Wars?
    
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    August 6, 2025 1:41pm
  - kowtow
    
    Indeed.
    
    Who mourns the raped and massacred of Nanking .
    
    Most have probably never heard of that appalling atrocity .
    
    You’ll find very few Chinese and indeed Philipinos and other ‘beneficiaries’ of the Imperial Japanese Greater East Asia Co Prosperity Sphere being overly maudlin about their defeat.
    
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    August 6, 2025 3:28pm
    - Colville
      
      It’s been written out of Japanese history.
      
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      August 6, 2025 4:32pm
- Mr Nobody NZ
  
  If anybody is interested I put together a Google Earth file with various Hiroshima information (blast zones, fallout area’s, civilian and military targets etc) a while back which is available at: https://we.tl/t-fdLlPF8wa6.
  
  You will need to install Google Earth to view which can be downloaded for free at https://www.google.com/earth/about/versions/#earth-pro
  
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  August 6, 2025 10:48am
  - David Garrett
    
    Mr Nobody: there is no apostrophe in “areas”… you are no doubt one of the young who think an apostrophe should be inserted in every word that ends in “s”… not so Sir/Madam
    
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    August 6, 2025 6:03pm
- rouppe
  
  One thing that I haven’t seen in all this discussion is that Germany were trying to develop a nuclear weapon before and during WW2.
  
  If they had, it would have been game over.
  
  Another technical innovation of the Germans early on was fuel injection. The early Messerschmidt 109 were fuel injected while the spitfire was not. This meant the spitfire engine cut out during negative g manoeuvres giving the me109 a tactical advantage in combat. I think the Brits had to reverse engineer fuel injection from a captured me109 to put in later spitfire models.
  
  Then there’s the jet engine in the me 262.
  
  The allies were bloody lucky in a number of areas.
  
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  August 6, 2025 2:14pm
  - kowtow
    
    rouppe
    
    The excellent Alistair Cooke made the point that if the Nazis had not been so insanely anti semetic all those brilliant minds that so happily were able to escape to the great western democracies and who help to create the bomb for democracy would have been engaged in doing same for their heimat and they would have had it first .
    
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    August 6, 2025 3:32pm
  - rangitoto
    
    Not really. Nuclear weapons aside, the Germans had no way to overcome the industrial capacity of the US, which flooded the Soviet Union with military hardware, while their own production was getting bombed.
    
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    August 6, 2025 3:49pm
  - David Garrett
    
    Rouppe: Quite so… I only realised recently that the Messerschmit 262 was operational at the time of the Battle of Britain…had they been deployed in numbers the outcome of the BOB might have been very different (And yes I know the 262 had serious operational limitations)
    
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    August 6, 2025 6:09pm
    - Dave
      
      In case you’re reading this, DG, here’s Wiki on the 262:
      
      It made its maiden flight on 18 April 1941 with a piston engine, and its first jet-powered flight on 18 July 1942.
      
      Time travel was not one of the 262’s advanced features.
      
      The 262’s engine, the Jumo 004B, after numerous development problems, went into production in 1944, earlier than its less powerful rival initially favoured by the government. The relatively reliable 004A was available earlier but used metals whose general unavailability prevented mass production.
      
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      August 7, 2025 9:45am
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360781458/tim-tam-terror-controversial-cycleway-barriers-wreak-havoc-new-plymouth-roads

Best safety action for cyclists is to identify and sack the idiots in councils who dream up and implement these road impediments.
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August 6, 2025 8:25am
- imalwaysright
  
  I’m surprised that Worksafe or ACC haven’t had a go at these and other cycle lanes.
  
  Every one that I’ve seen seems to be a semi random collection of tripping and cycling hazards that divert road users attention from other road users.
  
  Roads should be open, wide, and clear of distraction.
  
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  August 6, 2025 8:54am
  - Don Beckett
    
    They’re all over the place in Tauranga too – in particular Cameron Rd., but many other roads as well.
    
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    August 6, 2025 3:55pm
- nz_aj
  
  People complaining about hitting or driving over kerbs are really just self identifying as those who shouldn’t be on the road. They’re either blind or driving too fast or both.
  I’ve never had a problem with them.
  Complaining that a vehicle lane is not wide enough for driving at a desired speed might have some credence, although the council might be trying to lower speeds on purpose.
  
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  August 6, 2025 1:35pm
  - waikatosinger
    
    These things don’t look so bad when they are new bright and shiny. But over time the concrete takes on the same grimy grey tone as the pavement, especially under lights. When driving at dusk these things are camoflaged road mines waiting to rip out your suspension. They make driving stressful and occupy a lot of your focus so that you are less likely to notice things like idiots cycling at dusk with no lights dressed in black; idiots who often are not in the cycle lane where you might expect them to be because – they are idiots – and because many cyclists prefer to cycle on the road where it is easier to cross intersections.
    
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    August 6, 2025 5:24pm
Cassandra

Chris Finlayson, described as a former National MP, continues to represent his clients by claiming that the coastal law change being introduced is a terrible thing. “I have principles but if you don’t like them then I have others”. And National Anders why many right leaning voters think that it is the untrustworthy? Best thing the Nats could do is to expel Finlayson from the Party.
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August 6, 2025 8:27am
- peterwn
  
  The Left would just love that.
  
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  August 6, 2025 8:31am
  - Graeme Hall
    
    They are welcome to him – anytime. John Key chose him and he chose to cause untold damage to race relations – and still does. A terrible choice.
    
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    August 6, 2025 8:44am
    - kowtow
      
      I see Ngai Tahu whom previous Nats were ridiculously generous to , they gave them their Fifth “full and final ” under Bolger and Graham are bemoaning this National party , taking them back to the “dark ages” and the loss of their “intergenerational relationship”.
      
      Some people will never be happy . Talking of ‘dark ages” these are the folk bought off to the tune of a hundred mil to keep the lights on.
      
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      August 6, 2025 3:41pm
  - pdm
    
    pw – do you think Labour `snap him up’ like NZFirst is apparently `snapping up’ Nash?
    
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    August 6, 2025 8:53am
    - peterwn
      
      Perhaps. However if National chucked Chris Finlayson out of the party, it would have many similarities to John A Lee’s expulsion from the Labour Party in 1940. There was dirty politics even then. His political enemies wanted to compromise him, so hired a prostitute to ride the overnight train and to try and have an affair with him. John realised what was happening and refused to partake.
      
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      August 6, 2025 9:02am
      - David Garrett
        
        Peterwn: …so [they] hired a prostitute to ride the overnight train and to try and have an affair with him
        
        Such quaint language! Prostitutes don’t generally have “affairs”. But this is very interesting nonetheless, and shows the Labour Party has a long history of “honey traps”
        
        During my time there was a randy old goat in the Nats called Richard Worth. Labour set him up with an attractive Indian woman many years his junior. (Worth was married with adult children). He fell for it hook line and sinker.
        
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        August 6, 2025 9:08am
      - Jethrod
        
        Is that a line that went around Bellamys at the time?
        
        2 0
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        August 6, 2025 9:54am
      - kowtow
        
        Labour engaging in sexual exploitation and trafficking women for political gain and /or blackmail. Well I never.
        
        1 0
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        August 6, 2025 3:46pm
    - RoboRob
      
      Yes. He would be a great replacement for Hipkins and Labour would have a really strong chance of winning the next election.
      
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      August 6, 2025 9:03am
- keepcalmcarryon
  
  Give him a hammer and get him rebuilding DOC huts that his treaty co governance agreement got burned down.
  The guy owes the taxpayer millions for that.
  
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  August 6, 2025 8:49am
- Ruahine
  
  Expel Gerry Brownlie as well.
  
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  August 6, 2025 8:53am
- Burtland
  
  goldsmith would appear to be on target
  
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  August 6, 2025 8:57am
- mandk
  
  Finlayson would be no loss to National.
  
  He’s very grumpy and he is devoid of charisma.
  
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  August 6, 2025 9:03am
- Nigel Kearney
  
  If National is going to expel people for abandoning the principles the party has traditionally stood for, they should start with Luxon and Willis.
  
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  August 6, 2025 9:34am
  - Colville
    
    Maybe you need to move on to a different party?
    Luxon/Willis leads a party of the center that is possibly electable in the Socialist Republic of Aotearoa.
    The old National Party was given the Arse Card 5 years ago with polling at 20% under Judith Collins.
    
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    August 6, 2025 10:01am
    - leoj
      
      Would you care to compare the popularity of National in 2017 to 2023?
      
      The old Nats were healthier under Bill English, who actually had a clue.
      
      These Nats are wimps, hence my always calling them the namby-pamby party, headed by gutless wonder Luxon.
      
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      August 6, 2025 2:19pm
  - peterwn
    
    Principles need to keep up with the times and National’s ‘founding principles’ presumably embedded in the original 1930’s constitution would have been amended at various times over the years to keep up with the times.
    A major issue with the Islamic religion is its founding principles can never be changed and many are repugnant in a modern society (eg punishing a woman who is a victim of rape while the man gets off free).
    
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    August 6, 2025 10:03am
    - Simon
      
      what are Nats principals now? Utter clown show.
      
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      August 6, 2025 11:12am
      - peterwn
        
        See: https://www.national.org.nz/rules
        
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        August 6, 2025 1:47pm
      - David Garrett
        
        Simon: Principles my boy…principals are people who rule over a school, or are the partners in a law or accounting firm
        
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        August 6, 2025 6:13pm
    - Pope Punctilious II
      
      OK. And what do the Nats stand for in 2025?
      
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      August 6, 2025 12:16pm
  - keepcalmcarryon
    
    And just about everyone else.
    
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    August 6, 2025 11:26am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Bridges booted Findlayson from parliament which has sent him crazy ever since, we are going back to what it was in 2011 and take a wild guess who seat that framework back then would have been.
  
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  August 6, 2025 9:39am
  - Pope Punctilious II
    
    Bridges did what? If that’s true, my estimation of him has gone up even higher.
    
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    August 6, 2025 1:40pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  It’s fair enough to describe Finlayson as a former National MP. However, they should also add that he’s a hired shill for Maori interests both before and after his time in parliament.
  
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  August 6, 2025 9:43am
- Cassandra
  
  Actually keep your friends close and your enemies even closer is a better idea.
  
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  August 6, 2025 9:46am
- Tom Hunter
  
  There are few politicians I hate. Chris Finlayson is one of them, even though he’s an ex-politician and I was, regrettably, impressed by him when he was in the Key government.
  
  As part of his legacy, it was noted that at that time he had appointed all the Supreme Court other than the Chief Justice, all 10 members of the Court of Appeal, and 37 of the 46 High Court Judges
  
  But it was the following quote in 2023 that got me:
  
  “I simply say to people, one, there’s a new regime, get with it folks; two, Rome wasn’t built in a day.”
  
  While he says there’s room for robust debate about the co-governance model between the Crown and iwi and hapū, Finlayson’s advice for dealing with the “sour right” behind the racist, resentful rhetoric: “We’ve just got to leave those losers behind and move on. They don’t like tangata whenua. They dream of a world that never was and never could be,” he says.
  
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  August 6, 2025 10:26am
  - Simon
    
    Chris Finlayson is core National party
    
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    August 6, 2025 11:13am
    - David Garrett
      
      Simon: Finlayson is a truly Odious little man
      
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      August 6, 2025 6:16pm
  - Eastlander
    
    ‘They dream of a world that never was and never could be’ – to say this of others while advocating for Maori nationalism is incredible.
    
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    August 6, 2025 11:28am
sungsamning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJZXsgc5o3k
Its Wexit Time.
Alberta is like Texas. Ottowa is hard left, and treats the west like a cash cow.
[The Wexit people should ink an FTA, dollarization arrangements, US diplomatic recognition, political independence, and a pipeline deal. Becoming a 51st state would be harder to sell.]
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August 6, 2025 8:37am
sungsamning

https://redstate.com/rusty-weiss/2025/08/04/greg-abbott-drops-bombshell-on-tx-dems-who-fled-state-return-or-be-removed-possibly-face-felony-charges-n2192407
Greg Abbott Drops Bombshell on TX Dems Who Fled State: Return Today or Be Removed, Face Felony Charges.
Texas Governor Greg Abbott issued a statement warning Democrats who fled the state to deny a quorum for his redistricting push that they have until precisely 3 p.m. Monday to return to their House duties or face removal from office.
Abbott, in his statement, cites a 2021 Attorney General opinion (KP-0382) that could let him petition a court to declare their seats vacant. On top of that, he’s dangling the sword of felony charges, alleging their fundraising to cover $500-a-day fines might violate bribery laws.
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August 6, 2025 8:38am
Damocles11

Simon Wilson has a new article in The Herald: ‘Why National’s got the country and itself into such a mess’. That’s right, the ‘mess’ wasn’t caused by Labour baking in an 80% increase in government spending + pursuing racial division and separate rights based on DNA, it was caused by the outfit that received the hospital pass. Wilson is the guy who fronts up to speak at meetings of the leftist Fabian Society – the organisation committed to the gradualist implementation of democratic socialism rather than violent overthrow.
No doubt tomorrow it’ll be time for another Shane Te Pou column attacking the Coalition, Te Pou being a former Labour party activist, candidate, campaign manager, and executive member.
It seems Steven Joyce and the NZME board have decided that the election of a Labour government is in their financial best interests.
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August 6, 2025 8:52am
- Flossie
  
  And they wonder why reader/ subscriber numbers are dropping!
  
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  August 6, 2025 1:03pm
- leoj
  
  Which idiots are prepared to pay to read Wilson?
  
  Keep him behind the paywall.
  
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  August 6, 2025 2:21pm
cmm

Stuff is showing off “starving Gazans”.

Maybe they are, but maybe they aren’t. Once you’ve blown your credibility by publishing lies it is hard to regain trust. The emergence of proof that the “starving Gazan boy” was actually sick should be enough for people to question what they write.

This is nothing new. In the 1970s photographers were throwing sweets and coins into rubbish bins in South Africa to get pictures of “starving black urchins” scrabbling through the rubbish.

No doubt those 1970 photographers where not the first.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world-news/360781674/starving-gazans-scramble-aid-pressure-mounts-israel
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August 6, 2025 8:57am
- mandk
  
  If there is really any starvation in Gaza, it is the fault of Hamas. No one else.
  
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  August 6, 2025 9:00am
- Libertarians are right
  
  The UN has recently stated that 90% of their aid since mid May has been hijacked or looted, most likely by Hamas.
  
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  August 6, 2025 9:04am
- PeeJay
  
  Many years back, I saw a series of images from one of the older Palestinian uprisings against the Israelis which showed just how clearly a narrative could be created by selected editing.
  
  The first image showed an IDF soldier with weapon pointed at a cowering, handcuffed Palestinian, almost looking like an extrajudicial killing was about to take place – left wing narrative was clear, horrid IDF, poor Palestinian. The second image showed the same scene but showed another IDF soldier passing some water to the Palestinian – right wing narrative showing the caring IDF. The third image showed the full scene – the Palestinian on the ground and handcuffed had apparently been part of an attack on a bus – he was handcuffed and covered because he could still be a threat, but the IDF were also giving aid and water.
  
  Selective editing of the same photo, different narratives. It’s why I always try and read from as many sources as possible.
  
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  August 6, 2025 9:23am
  - sungsamning
    
    Pallywood has a long history.
    
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    August 6, 2025 4:25pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  I think it’s reasonably clear that there’s a food shortage in Gaza. How dire the shortage is, and the extent to which food supplies are used as a method of control of the Gazan population by Hamas is another matter. From my casual browsing of the media reports, the latter is not a question I’ve seen asked.
  
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  August 6, 2025 9:46am
  - cmm
    
    There is limited food, certainly. But that is different from a shortage. Wants might not be met, but it would seem that sufficient food is flowing in to address needs.
    
    One must also be careful what is considered “food”. Sugar + fertilizer = rocket fuel. Sugar + fertilizer + irrigation pipe = rocket capable of 10km range.
    
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    August 6, 2025 2:44pm
- Fender
  
  Exactly to think as far back as Disney and there lemmings and cliffs debarkle it has been going on forever in media
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Wilderness_(film)
  
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  August 6, 2025 1:12pm
- nigel2010
  
  and wasn’t there a report and a witness screaming at us about a so called attack on the cafe she was sitting at having her morning latte while gossiping to her friends
  
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  August 6, 2025 7:21pm
Paulus

I am disaapointed to read in the BOP Times the views of the top College principles to the proposed Educational changes.
I pick one comment from Ivo Ropata Head of the large and excellent Papamoa College that we are going to return to the 1980s.
Mr Ropata – you should look at all the educational measurements for the 1980 s – children even in New Zealand could read, write and do maths and their parents were happy with what our children were achieving.
Could it appear that your generation, assisted by that of the feminist teaching profession has taken over, so much that the current standings are appalling.
I am disappointed that you and your local principal College heads are immediately anti with what your generaton had allowed to take over.
Of course with your media we know you will fight everything you can against any changes which could improve the educational places in our society.
Try that publically with many parents who employ you.
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August 6, 2025 9:11am
- pdm
  
  Paulus said.
  `Mr Ropata – you should look at all the educational measurements for the 1980 s – children even in New Zealand could read, write and do maths and their parents were happy with what our children were achieving.’
  
  I agree.
  Our 4 kids went through school from the late 70’s to the early 90’s and they all did okay even though numbers 2 and 4 were not really scholars. All got good jobs and have been successful in their own individual ways.
  
  All of them should have paid more attention in Geography though. I sometimes wonder how they find their way around – from town to town even. Let alone country to country.
  
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  August 6, 2025 11:49am
Rusty

I stand to be corrected but General MacArthur was only told at the last min of the dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima 80 years ago.
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August 6, 2025 9:16am
- David Garrett
  
  Rusty: I think that’s correct…he was a notorious leaker of confidential plans IIRC.
  
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  August 6, 2025 1:05pm
Maggy Wassilieff

How Languages die..

Not because the use of the language is prohibited at school, but because families choose not to speak it with their children.

Kairua said the language is at risk at the source.

“Here in the homeland, we’re complacent,” he told RNZ Pacific.

“People have stopped using it in their everyday lives. Even my children, I must admit, don’t speak Cook Islands Māori. They understand it, thankfully, but they can’t speak it.”

https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/568920/people-have-stopped-using-it-culture-secretary-warns-of-complacency-toward-cook-islands-maori
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August 6, 2025 9:23am
- cmm
  
  Is Cook Island Maori really a different language or is it a local dialect?
  
  Would you call Cockney a different language than Geordie?
  
  Bottom line though is that if the natives don’t use their own language, then why should anyone else bother to keep it alive?
  
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  August 6, 2025 9:46am
  - Paulus
    
    I do not know the answer, but understand that Maori language as we are learning is a derivation of what is known as Cook Island Maori.
    That is because New Zealand Maori is a created language to suit Maori here.
    I understood that present Maori came via what is lnown as the Cook Islands, named after Captain Cook.
    
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    August 6, 2025 9:58am
    - MCōs
      
      I have a cousin who lives in Worcestershire. He told me he drove a lorry up to Glasgow and couldn’t understand a word they were saying!
      Mind you that’s probably more of an accent issue.
      People in Laos speak Laos, which is almost the same as Thai.
      Cambodians speak Khmer, which is nothing like Thai and that suits my wife just fine right now!
      Thailand and large parts of Cambodia used to be part of the same country of Siam
      
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      August 6, 2025 10:21am
      - cmm
        
        The big difference though is that there are still Cockneys speaking Cockney, Geordies speaking Geordy, Thais speaking Thai, Cambodians speaking Cambodian….
        
        But there are extremely few Maori speaking Maori.
        
        It isn’ up to the taxpayer to preserve this language that nobody wants.
        
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        August 6, 2025 11:15am
      - fightingtemeraire
        
        Try serving on a ship with people who speak Geordie, Glaswegian, Scouse and others who live in S England!!!!
        
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        August 6, 2025 11:19am
  - Dave
    
    I’ve heard New Zealand Maoris conversing with Cook Island Maoris, in Maori, I presume.
    
    Sometimes it’s a moot point whether languages are separate, and opinions vary according to whether you are a proud nationalist or not.
    
    When I watched No Country for Old Men, it took me 10-15 minutes before I could fully understand their conversation without difficulty, yet we are all mother-tongue English speakers. Likewise the occasional film in English provincial dialects.
    
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    August 6, 2025 1:20pm
    - OlderChas
      
      Fightingtemeraire – I hit report in error so Mods please ignore.
      Some years ago I had to monitor all the verbal communications involved in a major Damage Control exercise in a Royal Navy ship. The multitude of accents meant that i understood very little of what was said – particularly as things got gnarlier and the voices became more excited! (But I gave them a pass mark because I couldn’t prove or give examples of bad communications procedures lol)
      
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      August 6, 2025 2:16pm
    - cmm
      
      Yup, in Southern Africa most of the nguni languages are similar enough that they can understand eachother well (Zulu, Xhosa, Ndebele etc). There are dialects of each of these languages too and stronger tribes sometimes try to proclaim their language as distinct.
      
      I was brought up with Zulu as a second language and that worked fine with speaking to Xhosa-speaking Pondo people (with a few different words in key places). I recently listened to some Ndebele people being interviewed on Yout Tube and I could understand about 50% of what they were saying.
      
      In South Africa there is a group of people called amaPondo (the Pondo people of Pondoland). They are classified as Xhosa, but are the most powerful of the Xhosa tribes and they are currently trying to get their variant of Xhosa classified as a separate language.
      
      The distinction between different language and a local dialect is somewhat arbitrary.
      
      In 2020 I spent some time in the same hospital ward as a Maori guy who came down from North Island as a Maori language tutor. He said he really struggled to understand SI Maori at first and they needed to use English to understand eachother properly. After 6 months there were still some difference he hadn’t fully grasped yet.
      
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      August 6, 2025 2:56pm
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  The same is true of religion, I think. The Communist regimes of Eastern Europe and the USSR did their best to prohibit organised religion, but many of the Catholics of Poland and the Muslims south and east of Moscow held on to their faith. Not to mention the Jews all over the region. Done through family and community commitment, often in secret.
  
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  August 6, 2025 9:51am
- keepcalmcarryon
  
  Perhaps they could ask the Chinese for some money?
  Returning all their NZ passports would surely be de colonization?
  Let’s try.
  
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  August 6, 2025 11:30am
RoboRob

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/569041/labour-asks-auditor-general-to-investigate-electoral-roll-complaints

More complaints around the electoral roll / electoral commision.

The response from the commision is a combination of the following….

a) There are no issues. Everything is working perfectly

b) If you have any proof of issues you should bring them to us, not the media / auditor general.

c) Nobody has bought an issues to our attention

&

d) Oh you do have an example of an issue. Sorry we cant talk about individual cases.

Does Goldsmith still have confidence in the performance of Lequence or will he finally be removed? There have been continuous issues with the electoral commision but no error seems big enough to warrant the sacking of this hopeless CEO.

I would have thought the electoral commision one of the simplist government departments to run.
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August 6, 2025 9:25am
- artemisia
  
  It would be simple enough for the EC to report time to time on numbers of complaints, their resolution and any issues arising. No need to identify the voters.
  
  I’m sure they are keeping track these days. Their Minister and voters will be very keen to know.
  
  TPM said they have received hundreds of complaints about voter records so the EC will have a decent list to work through..
  
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  August 6, 2025 1:25pm
I remember when

cmm:
Although it is reasonable to think that many in Gaza may be suffering from degrees of starvation, the use of it as a propaganda tool is also attractive.
Watching crowds accessing food on TV, I am surprised at the ease with which sacks of flour, etc, are hoisted onto shoulders and carried off.
Also the speed of those running after airdrops.
Nobody seems to need to put the bag down and have a rest.
Add the distances that they are stated to have to travel to get food.
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August 6, 2025 9:28am
- cmm
  
  Yup, there’s a lot of bullshit here.
  
  I am sure there isn’t a massive amount of surplus food sloshing around but there seems to be enough getting through to keep people going.
  Quite likely any shortages are caused by Hamas limiting the food that is given to people who are not fervent enough in their support.
  
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  August 6, 2025 2:35pm
RoboRob

Mark Mitchell on with Hosking this morning. Defending Luxon’s poor performance in the polls. He is likely right in stating

1) Luxon has been under constant attack since day one, no honeymoon period*
2) He is an excellent manager and hard working
3) Global headwinds
4) A great leader

But he misses the point. Nobody knows what he really believes, he seems to be dodging tough issues or downright doesn’t believe in policies National campaigned on. You can be a great leader and manager but if your direction isn’t clear you aren’t going to get traction. This is why the appalling Hipkins is polling as well as he is, which is pretty unprecedented.

Mike may be right, and National might squeak in next year, however it will likely be with a reduced lineup. They will loose seats to NZF and perhaps Act. If National want actually get back to a 40% party they need a new leader and it needs to happen soon, no later then Christmas.

I would suggest Erika Stanford, even if Luxon stays on to do the management side of things while she fronts and sets direction. She is the MP that has actually acheived the most of all National MPs, she fronts well and is female.

* I do think National had a honeymoon, in their first 6mths. They could have done anything they wanted with good support.
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August 6, 2025 9:37am
- Yabster
  
  Erica Stanford?- not after her hopeless interview with Hosking re s127 of the Education Bill- she was terrible.
  
  https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/mike-hosking-breakfast/audio/erica-stanford-education-minister-on-section-127-in-the-education-and-training-amendment-bill-no2/
  
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  August 6, 2025 1:44pm
  - RoboRob
    
    Yes, S127 was a massive fail. However otherwise her peformance has been outstanding. She has made the most significant changes of any National MP. When the others talk, she has done. Even more remarkable when she is up against the strongest unions and the MOE.
    
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    August 6, 2025 2:37pm
- Pope Punctilious II
  
  Stanford? You do understand that she’s woke? Look at her voting record. She’s not the answer.
  
  2 0
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  August 6, 2025 9:51pm
Swifty

Cook Islands backpedaling?

https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/569120/mark-brown-rejects-talk-of-strategic-shift-in-cook-islands-new-zealand-relationship

And is it too little, too late?
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August 6, 2025 10:11am
- cmm
  
  Naah, it will never be too little or too late for Cooks.
  
  NZ will fall over backwards to pat them on the head and give them hand outs.
  
  6 1
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  August 6, 2025 3:26pm
Gary Benner

The USA HHS has just issued a Press Release announcing the wind down of mRNA vaccine development.

The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) today announced the beginning of a coordinated wind-down of its mRNA vaccine development activities under the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority (BARDA), including the cancellation and de-scoping of various contracts and solicitations. The decision follows a comprehensive review of mRNA-related investments initiated during the COVID-19 public health emergency.

“We reviewed the science, listened to the experts, and acted,” said HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. “BARDA is terminating 22 mRNA vaccine development investments because the data show these vaccines fail to protect effectively against upper respiratory infections like COVID and flu. We’re shifting that funding toward safer, broader vaccine platforms that remain effective even as viruses mutate.”

So not “anti-vax” as some would claim, just good science, admitting it was a failure, and making the decision based on real data, not models or projected claims.

What is interesting is to watch the various news media around the world to see what they report:

NZ Herald: crickets
Stuff: crickets
BBC: : crickets
Guardian: crickets
The Times : crickets
UK Telegraph: crickets
NY Times: crickets
CNN: crickets
CBS: crickets
NBC: crickets
Associated Press: crickets

Reuters has a very short 2 paragraph version
Bloomberg has it, but paywalled

To report it would seem to be admitting to being part of the scam, so I presume they will just let it pass. Thank goodness for citizen and social media.
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August 6, 2025 10:46am
- mandk
  
  Not safe, not effective.
  
  8 1
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  August 6, 2025 10:54am
  - NeonTeepee
    
    Not properly tested
    
    1 1
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    August 6, 2025 9:20pm
- cmm
  
  Followed the best science available at the time, etc etc etc.
  
  1 0
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  August 6, 2025 3:27pm
Swifty

Some interesting numbers on New Zealand imprisonment levels:

https://x.com/charteddaily/status/1952647838128861555?s=46

The emptying of our prisons under Labour is stark.

I wonder whether our civil service and/or universities can draw a link between this and, certainly the perception of, crime skyrocketing during Labours term.
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August 6, 2025 11:01am
- cmm
  
  It’s an astoundingly low number, because:
  * If you’re sentenced to less than 24 months then odds-on you’ll get home D. There are around 1600 people serving home detention in NZ.
  * Sentences are pathetic.
  * Those sentences are further eroded by around 50% discount.
  
  If you were to stack those numbers up the way they should be, then:
  
  * Take current sentenced prison population: 6229.
  * Add 1600 people on home D that should really be in prison: 7829.
  * Now double it to make up for the fact that people get let out after half their sentence: 15660.
  
  We also have another 3500 held in remand and another 1600 or so monitored. So another 5000 waiting. Most of those will end up sentenced, but will get time off. So lets add, say, 60% of them or around 3000.
  
  Based on that, we should really have around 18,000 prisoners serving time.
  
  And no, don’t just blame Labour.
  The police just recently told us they don’t enforce theft under $500, Paywave fraud under $1000 etc etc. Nearly 2 years in we can’t continue to blame Labour.
  
  6 1
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  August 6, 2025 3:41pm
  - MCōs
    
    NZ’s prisons are full with a population of about 10.5k inmates almost half of whom are on remand.
    Some people think a lot more people should be in prison including the homeless according to some fool commenting here recently.
    Prisons are very expensive to built and staff .
    Ask the people if the scarce public resources should be spent on a new prison in their neighbourhood or a hospital . . . .
    
    3 1
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    August 6, 2025 5:01pm
    - David Garrett
      
      MCos: the costs of prison can very easily be manipulated…take this “it costs $100,000 a year per prisoner to operate prisons”. Bollocks. That sum includes depreciation of the buildings…and despite his many faults Sheriff Joe fed his prisoners on USD2 per.day…he achieved that by buying food that was past its “best before” but not past its “use by” dates. We could do the exact same thing in NZ.
      
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      August 6, 2025 6:29pm
leoj

We now have proof that governments are ONLY iterested in raising revenue, nothing else.

From the lead article about the country going to RUC (road user charges for petrol vehilces) in the Horrid, today:

“For example, petrol vehicles with better fuel economy contribute less FED per kilometre towards road maintenance, operations, and improvements,” Bishop said.

And here’s me thinking that governments were concerned about the environment.

Less fuel use, less pollution but less revenue. Can’t have that! The environment be damned.
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August 6, 2025 11:04am
- cmm
  
  “For example, petrol vehicles with better fuel economy contribute less FED per kilometre towards road maintenance, operations, and improvements,”
  
  Well they also cause far less road damage too.
  
  Our little Suzuki Ignis weighs only 85kg [850] and uses around 4.7l/100km and has a low-torque engine that puts low stress on the road.
  
  I’ll wager we contribute far more in road taxes per amount of damage our vehicle causes than the average Prius or similar which is almost the weight.
  
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  August 6, 2025 3:54pm
- David Garrett
  
  What does FED mean??
  
  1 1
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  August 6, 2025 6:31pm
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Fuel excise duty
    
    0 0
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    August 6, 2025 10:38pm
  - [email protected]
    
    Fuel Excise Duty
    
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    August 7, 2025 7:25am
Damocles11

Unemployment is now at 5.2%
Perhaps it is time to stop importing unskilled labourers and uber drivers when we have so many unemployed and underemployed people here. Bringing more people in is only adding to existing problems: our small farming and horticulture sectors can only support so many million unproductive people, including the urban populations selling each other coffees and houses.
9 1
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August 6, 2025 11:10am
- Swifty
  
  That would be the smart thing to do.
  
  5 0
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  August 6, 2025 1:49pm
- Paulus
  
  Whilsy you may be right please let us have a simple analysis of those unemployed even by ethnicity and we can see for ourselves.
  
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  August 6, 2025 2:06pm
cmm

Moving to RUC for all vehicles is, conceptually, a good idea. However, as with everything, the devil will be in the details.

One of the biggest problems with existing RUC is that the smallest vehicle category is too small. This makes the RUC fees so high that it has been punitive to consider small efficient diesels in NZ.

“Meanwhile, the number of fuel-efficient hybrid vehicles…”
Just being hybrid does not necessarily make them fuel efficient. There are many small petrol cars (eg. our Suzuki Ignis) which have the same low fuel consumption levels as hybrids.

If all cars need RUC, good luck getting people to pay it. Lots of people are going to get in arrears and claim hardship.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360782053/petrol-tax-getting-scrapped-road-user-charges-expand-all-vehicles-2027
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August 6, 2025 11:11am
- Simon
  
  The Clown Show dont have a clue. Its tinkering around the edges. Probably sold to National by some consultant IT company which will make millions in any transfer of billing
  
  6 7
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  August 6, 2025 11:19am
- AitchW
  
  I’d imagine that the people who fail to buy RUCs will largely be the same people who now drive unwarranted, unregistered, and uninsured cars.
  Having said that I drive a diesel and routinely buy the RUCs late…. Not for any other reason than that I don’t keep a close eye on my odometer and my RUC label!
  
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  August 6, 2025 11:25am
  - David Garrett
    
    Aitch: RUC’s have long been an inequitable tax. They were imposed when 95% of diesel vehicles on the road were heavy trucks – which undoubtedly damaged the roads far more than a light ICE powered sedan.
    
    But now many vehicles – like my Nissan Terrano – are diesel powered…but do no more damage to the roads than the same model with an ICE engine.
    
    So for that reason alone I support the change…notwithstanding the arguments against, chiefly regarding difficulties with enforcement of the new rules.
    
    The “Kaukapakapa switch ” will remain a very useful piece of kit.
    
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    August 6, 2025 6:39pm
- Philview
  
  I think it will potentially cost the Coalition the election. Most of the country will not be interested in monitoring vehicle usage and paying a separate charge even if the effect is they save money at the pump.
  
  7 3
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  August 6, 2025 11:29am
- Ian
  
  And what about electronic RUC devices and fitting them to all the 50cc motor scooters…..
  
  6 0
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  August 6, 2025 12:36pm
- [email protected]
  
  My ride-on lawn mower has been paying RUC for 13 years and has never driven on a road.
  
  10 0
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  August 6, 2025 1:21pm
  - David Garrett
    
    Info: bollocks. How pray has ur ICE powered lawn modern attracted RUC’s? If you mean a diesel powered tractor mowing ur berm that is not exactly “driven on a road”
    
    0 4
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    August 6, 2025 6:43pm
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      I think he means that the petrol in his mower includes fuel excise duty, while his mower stays on the lawn.
      
      2 0
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      August 6, 2025 10:41pm
    - [email protected]
      
      As far as I know about $0.70 per litter is the RUC for petrol that feeds my lawnmower.
      
      1 0
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      August 7, 2025 7:20am
- nz_aj
  
  Per google:
  Suzuki Ignis, wheelbase 2,435 mm, 5.2 L/100km manual, 5.4 L/100km automatic.
  Toyota Aqua hybrid, wheelbase 2,550 mm, between 3.3L/100km and 3.9L/100km.
  An example of a hybrid using 33-64% less fuel than your non hybrid.
  
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  August 6, 2025 1:50pm
  - Quail
    
    To those interested in the. RUC change.
    An extra factor is the ability of car computers to tell where and when the vehicle has been.
    Expected to be of considerable use to police and others who have an interest in individual New Zealanders.
    According to the talk back that ability is already here with some vehicles and has been for sometime.
    Am aware of NZTA monitoring cellphones to assess traffic flows but now this information take is going to different level.
    The built in RUC measuring equipment allegedly has much more sophistication.
    
    6 1
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    August 6, 2025 3:18pm
    - cmm
      
      Most cars will pay RUC on the full distance traveled (like with diesel cars today).
      
      It only really makes sense to use the RUC computer things if you go off road a lot with large vehicles (eg. logging trucks).
      
      3 0
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      August 6, 2025 4:02pm
  - cmm
    
    We’re getting under 5L/100km with our Suzuki Ignis manual.
    
    Not sure how you calculated 64% less.
    
    We did consider a hybrid Ignis, but the hybrid saving was so little vs the extra cost of a hybrid that it would have taken something like 200,000km to break even.
    
    4 1
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    August 6, 2025 4:00pm
  - rockape
    
    Now compare the same car but hybrid v petrol Subaru forester sport petrol 6.9 Lt per 100 km and the hybrid version 6.2 lt. It’s going to take a lot of miles to make up the difference in initial price plus the cost of new batteries in ten years.
    My own fun car a supercharged mini cabriolet gets around 6 litres per 100 km unless I am driving like a hooligan which I occasionally do!
    
    3 0
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    August 6, 2025 5:42pm
Hugh Jarse

https://www.thepress.co.nz/nz-news/360774554/two-south-canterbury-police-stations-face-closure-amid-restructure-proposal.

How can this be when Police have an additional 500 staff coming ?.

Mark Mitchell I hope you are across this, there are a lot of National voters in areas affected by these proposals and no it’s not just operational it’s strategic because of the scope of change proposed, with a lot of communities and effectiveness of service delivery affected by these proposals and the likelihood of this concept being rolled out nationally.
6 1
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August 6, 2025 11:14am
- cmm
  
  Why care about South Canterbury voters?
  
  They’d vote for a ewe tupped by a ram with a blue raddle.
  
  They’re considered safe National voters so no point in serving their needs.
  
  5 4
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  August 6, 2025 4:04pm
imalwaysright

Climate tossers protest causes coal mine to spend $30,000 per day in trucking costs.

Its been going on for ten days and the cops can’t get them down.

Can a judge start issuing these people with a daily invoice for the losses and also start collection procedures?

Sell their houses and cars while they are protesting and put them in jail when they come down.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/569097/climate-protestor-claims-stockton-mine-employee-fired-gun-to-scare-him
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August 6, 2025 11:16am
- artemisia
  
  Assume both men are identified, though only one named in the article. Obv have flexible ‘working’ arrangements. They will have to come down eventually and will no doubt be before the courts.
  
  It would be good if they are required to pay significant reparations to the company even if the debt takes years to repay even after bailiffs have been. And trashes their credit records.
  
  More like damp bus ticket.
  
  9 0
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  August 6, 2025 1:46pm
- Gravelroad
  
  These useless, entitled lawbreakers always seem to identify their groups as the “Aotearoa”something or other protest group.
  Thanks for that.
  Much better than using New Zealand – in this context.
  
  8 0
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  August 6, 2025 4:13pm
Observant Octagenarian

I’m hibernating in Queensland.
Local news is that nurses rejected an 8% pay increase (much higher rate than inflation) and are striking.
So too are police and firemen.
So much for the NZ news that nurses and police are emigrating to Australia where the pay is so much better.
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August 6, 2025 11:44am
- Colville
  
  One difference is that the Aussie Unions work for their members all the time whereas the NZ Unions only utter a peep when National is in power so nurses etc get totally screwed over and are forever playing catchup.
  
  7 1
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  August 6, 2025 2:03pm
  - RichardX
    
    The Labor QLD state government lost power in October 2024 which is why their strikes are happening now….just like NZ, strikes are less liekly under a Labor government.
    
    5 0
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    August 6, 2025 2:29pm
  - cmm
    
    Average nurse salary is about $95k. Well over $100k with some seniority.
    That puts them in the top 12% or so of earners.
    
    Sure, they could earn more elsewhere (everyone can), but I struggle to call that “screwed over”.
    
    12 0
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    August 6, 2025 2:31pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360605837/live-nz-politics-blog

Stuff reports:

“The latest unemployment figures have been released and show an increase of 0.1%.

In the June 2025 quarter, compared with the March 2025 quarter, the unemployment rate was 5.2%. This represents an annual change of 0.5%.

According to Stats NZ, the seasonally adjusted number of unemployed people was 158,000, compared with 156,000 last quarter.

Annually, unemployment rose by 16,000 people (11.1%).

“Labour market conditions have changed considerably in the last few years. Since the June 2022 quarter, the unemployment rate has risen by 1.9 percentage points,” Stats NZ labour market spokesperson Jason Attewell said.

All salary and wage rates (including overtime) increased 2.4%.”

– So wages and salaries have gone up even though more people are unemployed: could this be because employers are not hiring replacements for staff who leave, so they can actually afford to pay that 2.4% more ?
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August 6, 2025 11:47am
- AitchW
  
  I find it hard to accept that more than 1 in 20 people who are able to work are unable to find a job.
  Something is dreadfully wrong if there are 158 000 people out of work.
  A few year’s back one of my employees was unable to work for several months when he fell ill.
  He applied to WINZ for help, they put him on the Job Seeker’s benefit despite him being unable to work. Then they asked him why he wasn’t looking for work!
  How many others were put on the wrong benefit?
  There’s something a bit fishy about these numbers…
  
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  August 6, 2025 12:15pm
  - cmm
    
    Quite. How can there simultaneously be 5% unemployment as well as a shortage of low skilled workers like Uber drivers and fruit pickers?
    
    9 0
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    August 6, 2025 2:26pm
- Nigel Kearney
  
  The official unemployment rate is close to meaningless. You can even have an increase in the employment rate and an increase in the unemployment rate at the same time.
  
  The main change that has happened is that National is requiring more people to register as looking for work as a condition of continuing to receive benefits. They weren’t employed before either but only now are being counted.
  
  11 1
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  August 6, 2025 12:46pm
  - Quail
    
    Well one thing is clear, the job seekers are not coming from the civil service.
    Actual job number’s allegedly have risen in that group.
    
    7 0
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    August 6, 2025 3:28pm
Viva Christo Rey

Digital Id + Digital Currency = Digital Prison. Seems like most NZers couldn’t care less but the assurances of the reserve bank, the government and the media are meaningless.
10 1
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August 6, 2025 12:03pm
- JackRabbit
  
  Insure: Someone guarantees (mostly) to pay out if a negative even occurs.
  
  In this context:
  Assure: Someone guarantees that the negative events won’t occur.
  
  Ensure: Someone who works to prevent said negative events won’t occur.
  
  The word Assure generally had little meaning in NZ politics, and zero after Ms Ardern tore the ring out of it with her assurances that unvaccinated people would not be discriminated against.
  
  In her time, she generated enough falsehoods for Tui bill-board captions right through until 2172.
  
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  August 6, 2025 5:30pm
Maggy Wassilieff

I think you need to take anything coming out of RNZ nowadays with a degree of caution:

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/top/568927/media-council-upholds-complaint-against-rnz-over-inaccurate-rocket-lab-report

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/564317/nz-media-council-upholds-complaint-over-rnz-heatwave-story-headline

https://www.mediacouncil.org.nz/rulings/leon-y-xiao-against-radio-new-zealand/
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August 6, 2025 12:49pm
- Cassandra
  
  I had a battle with RNZ a few years ago. Its report was totally untrue but it stuck to its line until finally the media council ruled that I was right. They are a pack of lefty lying shills. RNZ said that Kofistop Anna had criticised the Bush administration. He had not; he was actually criticising his own organization, the UN. It took months for the truth to come out; meanwhile the world had moved on.
  
  12 1
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  August 6, 2025 1:27pm
  - Phronesis
    
    It took me a minute but I assume you mean that cheeky darkie that Paul Holmes was referring to. Amusing now to see that the complaint was not upheld by the BSA. https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/holmes-cheeky-darkie-complaints-dismissed/NDCBXIL5UQVDAYJHRJMETWHOIY/
    
    6 0
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    August 6, 2025 4:18pm
- cmm
  
  Don’t even bother selling them. Just pull the plug.
  
  10 0
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  August 6, 2025 2:24pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360782735/deteriorating-weather-way-most-aotearoa
Stuff doesn’t bother any more with “New Zealand”: just that maori shit.
9 1
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August 6, 2025 4:18pm
Albie

We went to a WINZ office for the fourth time today to finally get our superannuation sorted for next month. Quite the experience. We went once to the Lower Hutt office, and three times to the Highland Park office. I noticed in both offices, vast areas devoid of staff, just large numbers of desks and computers unattended. Quite depressing really. Apart from the front desk lady in Lower Hutt who was diss-interested to say the least, the Auckland staff were very friendly and helpful, even though there own system was very much “the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing”, hence the need for 4 visits after initially applying online.
Observing the number of people there queuing for money or accommodation was a real eye opener. By some conversations I overheard many had only arrived in the country a short while ago. You get time to pick up on all of this as the queues are very slow moving.
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August 6, 2025 5:46pm
Swifty

Just experimenting a bit with Grok AI and asking about coal-fired power stations in China as opposed to NZ.

“ As of July 2024, China had 1,161 operational coal-fired power stations on the mainland.
New Zealand had no operational coal-fired power stations as of the same period. The last coal-fired power station, Huntly Power Station, has transitioned to primarily using natural gas, with coal used only as a backup fuel source during periods of low hydro or gas availability.”

1,161.

And we bind ourselves up in knots over just one or two?
7 0
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August 6, 2025 7:24pm
Swifty

Craig Renney shreds his integrity yet again:

https://x.com/pronouncedhare/status/1952916385455325498?s=46

Nice spotting Liam.
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August 6, 2025 7:59pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360782680/wellington-signs-friendly-city-agreement-palestinian-city-ramallah
What the hell ? Who knew about this ?
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August 6, 2025 8:30pm

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