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November 18, 2025 8:00am by Kokila Patel

General Debate 18 November 2025

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General Debate

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NeverMindTheBollocks

I am looking forward to the torrents of moaning from young Lefty types when they realise that this ruling means that Ubers will disappear.

I’m also looking to Julianne Genter celebrating this ruling as a victory for taking the bus.

http://www.1news.co.nz/2025/11/17/supreme-court-dismisses-uber-appeal-says-drivers-are-employees/
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November 18, 2025 8:04am
- Cassandra
  
  Isn’t the Coalition passing corrective legislation to sort this out?
  
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  November 18, 2025 8:25am
  - KKNZ2025
    
    Is it going to be retrospective?
    Whatever the legal merits, it was a blatant rort for the claimants to take a case on a system they knowingly & willingly signed up to.
    
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    November 18, 2025 8:31am
    - Colville
      
      I think it will be a Union in the background stirring the pot to annoy the government.
      
      Any industrial unrest is good if National are in power.
      
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      November 18, 2025 9:24am
      - R
        
        Next year is election year. The Labour party requires funds. Complimentary activism, Uber drivers are seen as a soft and gullible touch
        
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        November 18, 2025 10:01am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        Yes, the unions were the mouthpiece outside the court on the news last night, and one woman had the audacity to apply the water works, utterly pathetic, the drives were stoked, but will lose their jobs, i just don’t get it, uber which I refuse to use is what it is. change the rules and it will disappear or the price of everything will go up
        
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        November 18, 2025 11:49am
  - RoboRob
    
    Dont know but if Goldsmith is the one in charge for drafting this legislation we might be waiting until 2050 for it. If it comes out the Judges might ignore it just like the gang patch regulation. Goldsmith will then do nothing about it.
    
    We cant rely on the government to address issues with the law in any timely manor.
    
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    November 18, 2025 9:29am
    - Mod88
      
      Goldsmith is the standout failure in the National front bench of this Govt and I will not be surprised to see him re-assigned in the New Year.
      
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      November 18, 2025 9:41am
      - RoboRob
        
        For me its Goldsmith and Watts. Sadly I dont think either will be replaced while Luxon is leader. I think they are in his ‘group’.
        
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        November 18, 2025 10:57am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Nothing to do with Goldsmith, its work place relations minister Brooke Van Velden, this is her bill they are trying to sort through
      
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      November 18, 2025 11:50am
  - gravedodger
    
    Not retrospective according to Willis.
    
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    November 18, 2025 10:36am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Its not retrospective yet, as it only applies to these 4 people. it will come now but it will ruin this business and the part time jobs of possibly 1000’s
      
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      November 18, 2025 11:53am
      - Ian Boag
        
        Dunno. There’s a good book by a Pom journo James Bloodworth. It’s called “Hired” – he goes sort of undercover for six months working in the low paid non-union bits of the UK scene. Summary at
        
        https://www.amazon.com.au/dp/1786490145?ref_=mr_referred_us_au_nz
        
        He spent some time in an Amazon dispatch centre and did a spell as an uber driver. Also the joys of living in flats where one bedroom became four sleeping spaces delimited by cardboard “walls” ….
        
        The economics were all pretty sad – this was all about people who wanted to work and took these low paid shit jobs.
        
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        November 18, 2025 1:33pm
  - RoboRob
    
    Good news, the bill is being run by Laura McClure, not Goldsmith.
    
    It passed its first reading about 4 mths ago so might get its second reading this year. Hopefully it will be in law sooner rather then later. It has a clause to clarify a contractor that would clearly make an Uber driver a contractor not an employee.
    
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    November 18, 2025 11:03am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Really? they keep saying its Brooke Van Velden, it was her speaking about what they are trying to fix, McClure pulled a bill out of the biscuit tin the last few days, not sure its this, Brooke told them on the radio last night she had been working on this for some time.
      
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      November 18, 2025 11:55am
      - RoboRob
        
        I might have them mixed up. I found this
        
        Employment Relations (Termination of Employment by Agreement) Amendment Bill
        https://bills.parliament.nz/v/6/fcf6f0ea-1d44-45af-cfff-08dcfeb826c6?Tab=reports&lang=en
        
        You are probably correct.
        
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        November 18, 2025 12:17pm
- artemisia
  
  Lots of questions.
  
  What is likely to transpire for Uber drivers who are to be employees? Expect they will find that they have more rights alongside more responsibilities.
  
  Will there be new contracts? Will the contracts offer minimum wage and specified hours and locations of work? Will their vehicles be provided by the employer? Will they be kept very busy to earn their wages? Will their performance be very closely monitored?
  
  How many current drivers will lose their jobs if there is not enough work for them as those 40 hour weeks kick in and patronage drops as fares rise.
  
  Will Uber exit New Zealand if they can’t make a decent profit? And it’s obviously not going to be just Uber impacted.
  
  Is Te Kauae Kaimahi salivating at the prospect of thousands more union members signing up? (You know that’s the CTU, right?)
  
  Impact on this decisions of the Employment Relations Bill if it is passed? Highly likely Labour will announce it will be repealed in their first 100 days.
  
  Answers on the back of a postage stamp.
  
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  November 18, 2025 8:28am
  - Chris2
    
    How does the Supreme Court reconcile its Judgement with the fact that for over 100 years taxi drivers who own their own caabs have always been considered as self-employed?
    
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    November 18, 2025 8:44am
    - RoboRob
      
      Or ‘owner operator’ courier drivers?
      
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      November 18, 2025 9:31am
    - R
      
      Our Judges drank the ‘woke ‘ elixir with jacinda; this is payback time. More union dues for Laboue
      
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      November 18, 2025 10:03am
    - Jake Dee
      
      Presumably it’s because, unlike those earlier owner/operators, these drivers have signed up to do that work through the Uber system, hailing, rankings, code of conduct, payments are all handled through Uber.
      
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      November 18, 2025 3:07pm
    - Foxfour
      
      Doesnt change that.
      Owner Operator taxi drivers are paid by you – Uber takes the money
      You can have a relationship with the driver for future pickups. Uber bans this
      Same goes for say lawnmowing. You deal directly with person giving the service, pay them can ask for varitaions etc.
      For Uber the driver has 15 sec to accept the fare but doesnt know how much it will be .
      Uber has already estimated the cost for the customer
      And so on and so on. Essentially the SC said Uber had a tissue of lies about its so called ‘Contracts’
      
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      November 18, 2025 3:26pm
  - sirknz
    
    I always translate ‘kaimahi’ as work lunch. It makes most of what they are trying to portray a mockery and a bit of a nod to ‘traditional food’…
    
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    November 18, 2025 9:17am
    - pdm
      
      sirk – that will be the long lunches the Ubion Delegates have at the workers expense.
      
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      November 18, 2025 10:47am
  - Handyman
    
    This is a real case of be careful what you wish for.
    Uber employees will be like supermarket workers. You are assigned shift hours at minimum wage so you will work 8 hours only from 5.30am to 2pm. No overtime, no tips. No surge pricing during peak times. No lending your car to a mate on the weekend. There will be Police checks, English language tests and driving tests. You will be required, (but compensated) to drive and maintain and clean a car of a certain standard.
    Uber will go in hard and use the New Zealand market to scuttle similar cases in other countries.
    On the flip side, Uber can use AI to position cars in space and time to minimise the wait time and optimise employee cost.
    
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    November 18, 2025 9:25am
  - Foxfour
    
    National/Act are doing this by removing taxi owner-drivers legal rights.
    Not by finding a middle ground.
    
    Just as they tried to remove Bank borrowers legal rights ( until a back flip) when the courts ‘could’ rule against the bank
    
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    November 18, 2025 9:30am
    - Swifty
      
      The Left never create anymore, they only destroy.
      
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      November 18, 2025 9:58am
      - Foxfour
        
        Theres other taxi app providers- who run as a cooperatives.
        
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        November 18, 2025 11:40am
      - Swifty
        
        Will they be the Left’s next targets for destruction?
        
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        November 18, 2025 1:39pm
- Ian
  
  The other aspect that hasn’t been discussed is that if Uber is your employer, you are expected to provide the major tool of trade to carry out the job – that is, your vehicle. Next these Uber employees will be demanding that Uber provides the car for them, or some compensation for the use of their own vehicle.
  
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  November 18, 2025 8:38am
  - Foxfour
    
    Thats not unusual.
    In fact Uber facilitates the purchase and insurance on a suitable- as defined by Uber- car
    Many employess use their own vehicle for the employers business in other areas also
    
    For a taxi service I think the Uber drivers want more security over their employment rather than Uber owning the car.
    I understand in Australia some businesses used to own dozens of taxi licenses ( when that was a thing) and maybe so here. Drivers with a taxi endorsement would pay a flat rate to lease the taxi cab and of course get the fares – mostly in cash those days.
    
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    November 18, 2025 9:39am
    - sirknz
      
      “Many employess use their own vehicle for the employers business in other areas also”
      
      They would likely be voiding their insurance policies by doing so.
      
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      November 18, 2025 10:12am
      - Foxfour
        
        Doesnt void it if you tick the box saying its ‘also’ used for business purposes
        
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        November 18, 2025 11:42am
      - NZer In Exile
        
        Foxfour: “Doesnt void it if you tick the box saying its ‘also’ used for business purposes.”
        
        Just pushes up premiums massively.
        
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        November 18, 2025 10:10pm
    - Skippytony
      
      I drove cabs part time in Sydney when I was a student. Picked up the cab 4.00 Friday afternoon, had to have it back to the owner by 5.00am Monday Morning, fully gassed and washed.
      I paid $300 for the car for the weekend. After I had made my pay-in everything was mine.
      
      Back in those days it was a cash business & I would include credit card vouchers in the payin.
      
      Tax? **ahem**
      
      I used to make enough over the weekend to pay my living expenses (Rent, food, clothes, health insurance and books. Oh, and booze. lots of booze….) for the week. Effectively paying myself double on Friday & Saturday nights as I was working and earning not out and spending.
      
      A Taxi plate back then was equivalent to the average house price in Sydney & a solid gold investment. Terrible deal for the punters though, as soon as it got busy, it rained or something big on you could wait an awful long time at the airport for a cab.
      
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      November 18, 2025 10:42am
    - Ian
      
      Those employees that use their own vehicle for business are usually reimbursed a mileage allowance. Running your own car for the full period and gain of your employment is a completely different matter. Yes, Uber may facilitate the purchase of a vehicle, but you still have to pay for and own the vehicle. If you stop Uber driving then you’re still left with the car and any finance owing.
      
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      November 18, 2025 11:54am
      - Paulus
        
        Are they not then subject to Fringe Benefit Tax ?
        
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        November 18, 2025 1:40pm
- Prince
  
  Thankfully we can return to the halcyon days of taking taxis at three times the price.
  No problem for Public ‘Servants’ who can charge the taxpayer, and have a stack of chits at home for weekend use.
  Tough luck for the private sector who take it on the chin….again.
  
  I notice John Campbell in celebratory mood after the verdict. Funny how he always pops up when the Unions are involved.
  
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  November 18, 2025 8:39am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Another free market wrecked. Marvelous !!!
    
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    November 18, 2025 9:24am
    - Foxfour
      
      The Courts decided it WASNT a free market.
      
      And Uber acted as a capricious employer
      
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      November 18, 2025 9:42am
      - Skippytony
        
        And here we are back to the debate about courier drivers being contractors.
        
        Uber has totally wrecked the corporate cab model that I used to rely on a lot. The Uber drivers I have had lately are almost always immigrants and working for far below the minimum wage.
        
        So, let Uber loose and the consumer wins, drive Uber out of the market and the taxis win, the unions win and the consumer gets screwed.
        
        Mind you, its only a question of time till these are driverless resources and the whole debate will shift…
        
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        November 18, 2025 10:47am
      - Local Miller
        
        That doesn’t mean the courts were correct.
        
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        November 18, 2025 11:00am
      - Foxfour
        
        When Uber has lost its case – every time-through a succession of different courts and the SC issues a Unanimous opinion from 5 judges ( including some one like Stephen Kos) thats a certainty they got it right.
        
        Your claims dont match the facts
        
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        November 18, 2025 3:31pm
      - Dougal10
        
        I see the biggest capricious employer in nz is the government departments , they use contractors all over the place most of whom are really employees , there are those who contract to give advice and a huge amount of people who contract to tidy and clean up offices and dunnies after the “real” staff have gone home .
        
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        November 18, 2025 3:48pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      There is Uber eats and Uber taxi-like service.
      
      Uber eats is a very good side hustle for some extra money. You are dealing with food. Food doesn’t slash your upholstery for fun or give you a bad rating because someone was having a bad day or because someone was just a psycho or an a-hole. Uber eats doesn’t involve picking up druggies, drunks or groups of thugs.
      
      Personally I would not do Uber taxi like service. I did do uber eats on the side long ago for a while for some extra cash. It was a very convenient side job. I could start and finish when I liked. I packed it in when they started doing facial recognition on drivers. Also many of the jobs coming through were starting to get too vague on details to accept.
      
      Taking away uber eats is going to make a lot of people on the edge in NZ even poorer. Well done lefties.
      
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      November 18, 2025 10:21pm
  - Nikola Donatello
    
    If you think that public servants have a stack of taxi chits at home you are dreaming.
    
    In Wellington public servants are expected to catch a bus unless it is urgent. The Ministry for the Environment makes its employees arriving at the airport to catch a bus. No taxis.
    
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    November 18, 2025 9:40am
    - Foxfour
      
      Thanks for that. I think they meant Parliament and Beehive
      Although with Mps office expense on a fixed budget it too might be limited
      
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      November 18, 2025 9:45am
    - NothingLeft
      
      What a vast waste of money. for an employee costing $100 an hour or more to govt it costs govt more to make them use public transport than a taxi.
      
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      November 18, 2025 10:41am
      - Nikola Donatello
        
        I agree but it is about feels and climate change.
        
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        November 18, 2025 12:46pm
    - NeverMindTheBollocks
      
      In Wellington at some times of the day, the Airport Bus is quicker than a taxi. It bypasses the scrum at the Mt Vic Tunnel & the Basin as it has its own tunnel, and to/ from Kent & Cambridge Tces there are bus lanes.
      
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      November 18, 2025 10:41am
    - Reg Perrin
      
      When i used to travel to Wgton for work i would always get the bus, as it was quite often quicker in the morning than a Taxi as it had its own Tunnel.
      
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      November 18, 2025 10:43am
    - Anthony Melchett
      
      Talk about false economy in the name of virtue signaling!
      
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      November 18, 2025 11:15am
    - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
      
      Nobody uses chits, they have taxi cards!
      
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      November 18, 2025 12:06pm
    - imalwaysright
      
      “…catch a bus unless it is urgent.”
      
      So, sit on arse until 15 mins before ETA and take a taxi.
      
      I’m the antithesis of a public servant beneficiary, but that wasn’t difficult to spot…
      
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      November 18, 2025 1:14pm
  - OlderChas
    
    He recently did a whole show on the plight of uber drivers Prince. So he is celebrating because he thinks it was all because of his “work” and “story”.
    
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    November 18, 2025 11:55am
  - artemisia
    
    Mr Campbell’s article was about low pay and Uber drivers. I wonder if the drivers realise if they get higher pay they may lose taxpayer subsidies, several of which are in large part based on household income.
    
    Time to time I hear of low paid workers declining more responsibility or more hours because they will be no better off and possibly worse off. There was a media story a year or so ago about a solo parent moving from 30 to 40 hours a week for $50 in the pocket once subsidies were taken into account. She took the 40 hours anyway, so good for her.
    
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    November 18, 2025 12:38pm
- Paul Marsden
  
  Is the SC usurping the IRD, who already define what a contractor is under the Income Tax Act 2007 and the Tax Administration Act 1994?
  
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  November 18, 2025 9:22am
  - Foxfour
    
    No it was done under Employment Contracts Act where UBER has in practice acted as a capacious and arbitrary employer.
    In general IRD doesnt define tax law its the Courts which rule and IRD must follow
    
    Employees can still have business expenses, in this instance car costs and fuel plus any software they use.
    
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    November 18, 2025 9:49am
    - David Garrett
      
      The Employment Contracts Act was repealed 15 years ago.
      
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      November 18, 2025 10:05am
      - Yabster
        
        lol obvs all FF’s AI searches hasn’t picked that up….
        
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        November 18, 2025 10:14am
      - Foxfour
        
        If you want to dispute technicalities its not ‘Uber’ either as its Raisier Operations BV and others.
        
        Yes its Employment Relations Act 2000 (ERA)
        
        https://www.courtsofnz.govt.nz/assets/cases/2025/2025-NZSC-162.pdf
        
        The Courts below found that in reality Uber offers passenger transport services
        to riders and hires drivers to provide those services.18 The Court of Appeal described
        some of the language in Uber’s non-negotiable documents as “window-dressing” and
        “fiction”, evidently designed to confer control over drivers’ labour while skirting the
        margins of employment law
        
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        November 18, 2025 11:51am
      - Tauhei Notts
        
        Foxfour, thank you for bringing the judgement to our attention.
        I ploughed my way through the 60 pages.
        Now I am convinced that this was a dreadful decision.
        But the details pointed out to me that Uber would be an awful outfit to contract with.
        
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        November 18, 2025 8:04pm
- MCōs
  
  I’ve caught an Uber once. From the airport to home which is about 15min and cost $30 of which $21.6 goes to the driver. From that he pays vehicle costs plus travel between fares; however long that might be.
  I know a Thai guy who did that work in Auckland and now in Melbourne while his wife is the real bread winner. It was crap money in NZ
  One day I struck up a conversation with a guy who was mowing lawns hereabouts. He used to work for Jim’s Mowers, or whatever they’re called, which is vaguely similar to the Uber model. Clients would ring up HQ who would send out a worker and take a commission.
  This guy tried to short circuit the process by cutting out HQ who cottoned on and threatened legal action.
  He said suit yourself and went out on his own and claimed to be doing fine
  The legal action never eventuated
  Back at the airport
  Regular taxis refused to take us for such a short distance because so few people took taxis they had to wait hours between fares.
  
  The regular
  
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  November 18, 2025 9:39am
  - Tauhei Notts
    
    That Supreme Court decision, which I find incomprehensible, may hinder the large number of franchisors who have garden repair and lawnmowing franchisees (employees?).
    
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    November 18, 2025 10:10am
    - Foxfour
      
      Not the same at all. I have dealt with lawn and gardencontractors they seem to be able to offer their own price and availability to a customer. These migrant guys were sub contractors to the franchisee whos bank account was offered for DC
      
      Uber controls all that as they give the actual fare to the user and if accepted that same fare ( minus commission + rewards) is offered to nearest UBER driver who has 15 sec to accept or not.
      
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      November 18, 2025 11:56am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Imagine if the Public Service operated like that.
        We wouldn’t be in the mess we are.
        
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        November 18, 2025 1:17pm
      - Foxfour
        
        Small error.
        Uber DOESNT tell its ‘contractor’ what the fare will be when it gives 15 sec to accept.
        The Customer does know the fare cost including surge prices.
        
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        November 18, 2025 3:33pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        “Uber DOESNT tell its ‘contractor’ what the fare will be when it gives 15 sec to accept.”
        
        Pretty sure you are wrong on this. Where are you getting this from?
        
        As far as I’m aware distance and payment ARE displayed to the driver. Where things can get tricky is exactly where (as in time-wasting headache. or not) the pickup is when the decision to accept or not is made.
        
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        November 18, 2025 11:05pm
  - Local Miller
    
    Interesting, I know a family who make their living through Uber. Dad and son do the driving and mom manages the books and their schedules. They seem to be doing pretty well. I’ll follow up with them now to see how this ruling impacts them and whether they agree with the premise of the case and the final decision.
    
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    November 18, 2025 11:09am
- keepcalmcarryon
  
  It will halve Indian immigration.
  
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  November 18, 2025 10:24am
  - MCōs
    
    There are approximately 143k people in NZ who were born in India
    There are about 11k Uber drivers
    I don’t think people come out here in bulk with the intention of working as Uber drivers
    
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    November 18, 2025 5:31pm
    - keepcalmcarryon
      
      It’s a comment on mass low skilled migration.
      I’m sure they’re all cardiac surgeons.
      No one comes here to drive taxis and run liquor stores on paper do they.
      
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      November 18, 2025 9:37pm
- NothingLeft
  
  Everything was working pretty well, few if anybody complaining so activist judiciary decide to come in and fuck everything in favour of their left leaning politics to destroy all sorts of businesses and make almost everyone’s lives worse due to higher costs and less flexibility in business practices and services offered.
  
  Supreme Court acting against interests of NZ, as is often the case. Get rid of the useless bastards and find justices who don’t fancy themselves as left wing politicians
  
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  November 18, 2025 10:45am
  - leoj
    
    All the SC will achieve is Uber closing down.
    Unionism fails every time.
    
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    November 18, 2025 7:11pm
- In Vino Veritas
  
  The Courts are bound by the law.
  Miller F ruled (and it was unanimous) “Uber does engage drivers to deliver passenger transport services to riders. There is no contact between rider and driver until after Uber has offered the rider a fare for the trip and the rider has accepted that offer,” and “Riders and drivers effectively cannot select one another. They are also practically anonymous vis-à-vis one another throughout the entire transaction. Uber earns its revenues by charging riders for trips. Uber also decides how to resolve any difficulties that may arise between rider and driver during a trip. A passenger cannot reasonably be expected to think they are contracting with the driver when they get into the car.”
  Having done a fair bit of contract work myself in the dim passages of time, there were rules around contracting that spelt out whether you would be deemed an employee. Unless the Government changes the law (and Labour will change it back, as they hate non-employment relationships) Uber will need to think again. And I think Uber is bloody great, use it all around the world where I can!
  
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  November 18, 2025 11:28am
  - Foxfour
    
    Uber just has to act like a reasonable employer.
    Im sure they have better owner-operator agreements than the NZ one as these same issues has cropped up elsewhere
    
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    November 18, 2025 11:59am
    - In Vino Veritas
      
      Nope Fox, Uber believed their drivers were contractors. And probably had legal advice to back it up. So no, they didn’t have to “act like a reasonable employer”.
      What should happen is that the Government legislate to allow people and business to make their own arrangements, contractor or otherwise.
      
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      November 18, 2025 2:41pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      FF have you ever been an Uber driver?
      
      Hop on Uber People forum for a reality check.
      
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      November 18, 2025 11:07pm
      - Ian Boag
        
        Uber drivers basically have to accept a ride once they swipe it. At the time they don’t know where it is going. eg Driver (self-managed) end of shift and a ride comes through which is going 20km away from home. Penalties occur if there is an attempt to decline ….
        
        An anecdote. We were stranded in Welly off the ferry – rental car (Suzuki Swift) to Palmy was $450 and it had to be returned to Welly the next day or pay something like another $250. We had been phoning rental car companies since leaving Picton with no joy. We did get one outfit who said they expected to have a car available in a couple of days time ….
        
        So we called up an Uber. First guy turned up, found we were going to Palmy and bailed because he was at the end of his hours. Another guy rocked up – fee was $185 so we took it. For that the driver had to put petrol in the car, drive 300km and pay 30% of the gross to Uber. Bananas. Yes we tipped him cash.
        
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        November 19, 2025 8:24am
artemisia

ACC’s use of AI to help decide who gets help shocks advocate

“ACC is using AI to help identify cases where the client may benefit from a further review by staff member to help ensure that they’re receiving the right support”. How is that a shocking idea?

But that is not what the single interviewed shocked advocate says, though on what basis is difficult to deduce from the article. A bit surprising from a highly experienced advocate. Maybe cherrypicked quotes? Or easily shocked?

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/579083/acc-s-use-of-ai-to-help-decide-who-gets-help-shocks-advocate
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November 18, 2025 8:07am
- Nikola Donatello
  
  Well they better get used to being shocked.
  
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  November 18, 2025 8:49am
- 70andstilllearning
  
  “Maybe cherrypicked quotes? Or easily shocked?”
  
  Or maybe AI that efficiently & accurately identifies clients support deficits that will get them off long term ACC doesn’t quite suit the “advocate’s” business model ….
  
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  November 18, 2025 8:57am
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    Whoops – FFD!
    
    I agree – anyone who advocates for ACC beneficiaries will find that the road has just got harder.
    
    Roll on the same thing for immigration, says I.
    
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    November 18, 2025 10:45am
- Local Miller
  
  A terrible article, poorly written and most of the info seems to come from someone who doesn’t understand how AI is used or hasn’t asked enough good questions of ACC or is deliberately being obtuse, or all of the above.
  Quite clearly they aren’t using AI to report on what’s wrong with a long term ACC recipient. They will be presenting the AI engine with the patient’s records and asking about long term prognosis, expectation of recovery time, etc. Then use the feedback to develop a better plan for the patient, which may include taking them off long term support.
  I work in IT and while I don’t like the ad hoc use of AI I see, there are places where AI could prove beneficial, and this is probably one of them. AI isn’t emotionally sensitive, so unlike a clinician won’t be swayed by the emotion of the patient trying to get extended support that may not be required. The AI feedback will be fact based. If this helps the clinicians at ACC make better decisions then it’s a good thing. And yes, some people will come off long terms support, but this will be those who don’t actually need the long term support, which will save money and make more money available for those who do actually need it.
  
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  November 18, 2025 9:05am
  - sirknz
    
    You might want to check into some of the ‘datasets’ that AIs have been trained on. Reddit is a very big source of data for a lot of the models, and that should scare anybody who has visited that cesspool.
    
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    November 18, 2025 9:19am
    - artemisia
      
      I expect ACC (and other enterprises) will use a curated dataset. And in ACC’s case the article indicates that a list will be generated for review.
      
      There’ll be a little list …
      
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      November 18, 2025 9:55am
    - Local Miller
      
      Reddit has contracts with Google and OpenAI that allows them to use the Reddit dataset for their AI training, this doesn’t mean every AI model is based on Reddit. There are actually some very good LLMs out there, but as I have said before AI has a place, but needs to be used with caution. That doesn’t mean we throw the baby out with the bathwater.
      
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      November 18, 2025 11:35am
Simon

Dancing monkey Labour more trusted on the economy than dancing monkey National according to latest polling.

It’s the Neolib Dance off = helicopter money vs burning the inflation.

All the problems Luxon govt inherited. Roosters coming home and all that. It’s too big for National to handle. The alternative though is the abyss.
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November 18, 2025 8:09am
- Cassandra
  
  Strange that voters think that going back to the same people who failed miserable last time will change anything. Einstein defined this as insanity.
  
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  November 18, 2025 8:27am
  - Boy Geoff
    
    That was then, this is now…
    
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    November 18, 2025 8:36am
  - Foxfour
    
    National failed in its pre election promises and its leadership is the simple answer.
    
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    November 18, 2025 8:45am
    - All_on_Red
      
      More like National is struggling to clean up the huge mess they inherited from Labour
      You know, for a troll, you’re pretty easy to fisk
      We used to get better ones//
      
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      November 18, 2025 8:52am
      - RoboRob
        
        Actually, Fox is right about this.
        
        People don’t really think Labour is better on the economy and inflation. The poll results are a symptom that people are unhappy with National and have lost faith in them. They are signalling their dissatisfaction.
        
        The reason they are unhappy is directly related to a failure of National to fulfil their core promises; getting spending under control, reducing the public service and inflation. The poor leadership (its a fact based on all available polling) does nothing to help the situation.
        
        Nationals apparent strategy of campaigning on asset sales and upping the retirement age is hardly likely to draw voters back. Voters will get the envious option of voting for more tax (labours capital gains) or selling off assets and working longer. Oh joy.
        
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        November 18, 2025 9:41am
      - All_on_Red
        
        I think its more nuanced than that.
        Although I have some dissatisfaction about Nationals lack of action on removing Paganism from Central and Local Govt, the reality is that they have been doing a good job. We are seeing a slow recovery.
        It is a fine balancing act to effect a recovery without causing to much of an increase in unemployment (a real risk)
        The issue for National is the same ole issue they always have.
        They cant cut through the constant media bias and the way the MSM does not report the good things but constantly seek wedge issues to attack National.
        The media knows full well that most get their news from their sources and they take advantage of it.
        This affects the Polls too.
        You see this overseas too. It is an ongoing problem for any Conservative Party.
        
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        November 18, 2025 11:11am
      - Foxfour
        
        Clean up Huge Mess ???? LOL
        Thats exactly the same spin that Luxon and former Key spin doctor Willis ( BA Journalism) have been peddling for 2 years.
        Its failed because its not true. The public cant be fooled by telling big lies.
        I have the last laugh as the polls agree with moi
        
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        November 18, 2025 12:05pm
      - RoboRob
        
        @All_on_Red
        
        I commented elsewhere (below) that the issue is their inability to communicate. You might be right, they might be walking a tight line, but FFS come out and say that. Be up front and honest. No more BS slogans like ‘we are lazer focused on growth’ (whatever the fuck that might mean).
        
        All the other parties can get media cut through including NZF and ACT, the issue is National dont know (or care to know) how to get cut through. Luxon is a terrible front man for Nationals policy. It doesn’t matter how good you may be as a manager, being a political leader is much more about communicating your strategy and successes. If National wont, or cant now (because they left it too late), replace Luxon, get another MP to front your poicy and do the interviews.
        
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        November 18, 2025 1:29pm
      - Jack5
        
        Fox4’s (12.05 post): …. former Key spin doctor Willis ( BA Journalism)
        
        Willis has a post-graduate diploma in journalism. That followed a degree in literature. Before politics Willis was an executive at Fonterra It was Ardern who had a bachelor’s degree in “communications studies”.
        
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        November 18, 2025 1:34pm
      - In Vino Veritas
        
        Replying to Fox who seems to believe that the economy was not wrecked by Labour. How is Treasury forecasting a structural deficit for the next 20 years not a wrecked economy Fox? Or is Treasury lying?
        
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        November 18, 2025 2:45pm
      - Foxfour
        
        Jack you are wrong.
        Sure she has a BA + Dip Jour – which I omitted for clarity.
        But never worked as journo as it was straight into working as a national party cadre in parliament around 2000. DPF was there around same time and same for Bishop – straight from Law School with top grades degree to party cadre.
        
        The gig with Fonterra came after working as JK spin doctor till about 2012 when she was hired as a Corporate lobbyist by its them GM Government Affairs Todd Muller [Small world he soon became an MP too, draw your own conclusions…]
        
        Soon as her mentor JK quit as PM , Ms Willis quit Fonterra to head back to Wellington to wangle a spit on nationals list for 2017 election
        
        Trouble is last election at 35% Nats had only 5 MPs from the list and now its likely there will be none based on current polling say 30%
        No electorate to parachute into as well. Maybe JK or Todd Muller can give some advice on the next step for a professional politician in a big hole. Get a real Job ?
        
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        November 18, 2025 3:45pm
      - Jack5
        
        Fox4, I would agree that the MMP system brings more “political lifers” into Parliament.
        
        I mean people who began careers inside parties as interns.
        
        The first-past-the-post voting system brought in more mature people of wider, non-Parliamentary experience — people who learned politics in local bodies and even in lesser fields like school committees.
        
        MMP, it seems to me, is creating silos of life-long politicians. Even in the Greens you get largely political fanatics rather than the variety of mature folk who were in the preceding Values Party.
        
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        November 18, 2025 4:19pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        RoboRob: “The poll results are a symptom that people are unhappy with National and have lost faith in them. They are signalling their dissatisfaction.”
        
        Not sure about that. I’m thinking that the only people who answer these pollsters are people floating around with spare time to answer such calls. Not a good cross section of voters. I did market research a couple of times as casual work (talk about a mind numbing job!!!). These days most people DO NOT want to answer a phone call from an unknown number.
        
        Also if these polled people are flagging their dissatisfaction with National, then why are ACT and NZF not jumping up hugely in the polls? They are up a bit, but not much.
        
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        November 18, 2025 11:13pm
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      They are delivering everything they promised and more, what have they not delivered in 2/3 of the term?
      
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      November 18, 2025 11:58am
      - GJM
        
        Maorification. Still have apartheid in NZ and the Iwi tax. Got a resource consent recently?
        
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        November 18, 2025 12:52pm
      - RoboRob
        
        Reducing the public service
        Reducing borrowing
        Removing unessasary treaty clauses from legislation
        Cutting red tape
        
        But as I said above, its about communicating what has been achieved and what the issues are. They have done a lot of good stuff but who knows about it? Certainly not the majority of voters, as witnessed by the terrible polling.
        
        Its easy to blame the media but no other party has this communication issue. The problem is with leadership (also as witnessed by the polls).
        
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        November 18, 2025 1:36pm
  - Simon
    
    It’s not the voters, who are generally clueless. It’s system failure which National & Labour can’t address as they are part and parcel. Within the system Labour are simply worse than National.
    
    Probably best result for NZ, National replaced next year by Labour who then crashes the system.
    
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    November 18, 2025 8:56am
    - RoboRob
      
      While National have been a failure in a lot of areas, a return of this Labour line up would be a disaster. I really hope National engage their brains and start to take evasive action.
      
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      November 18, 2025 9:43am
      - Paulus
        
        The action necessary for re-election is to try and get onside again with the women voters as it is they who historically make a Government.
        At present the war between women and men is being exponentially getting worse and I cannot see any change between now and the election – only worse.
        Ask the politically leading collection cohort ladies of the media as they set up to do whatever they can to take down the Coalition Government and get rid of Luxon – after all he is a happily married family man and bald. !
        After all we are told recently that the Public Service which appear to be expanding is 62% women who want everything still.
        
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        November 18, 2025 1:56pm
    - Quail
      
      Simon,
      A huge opportunity has been lost by the Coalition Government.It is probably too late for them to recover.
      NZ is simply governed by its own bureaucracy.
      A bureaucracy that follows its own agendas.Look at recent happenings in the Police department.!
      The minister, and government were ( apparently) shut out of that!
      Is this typical of the goings on in all. the other departments?
      The ReserveBank and its cynical use of inflation as a tax for example?
      It does not matter which “so called Government” is elected, the bureaucracy keeps growing supported by a corporate NZ.
      Their salaries are substantially larger than those in the private sector even if mostly not related to productivity.
      Examples: The alleged reform of the RMA.increased bureaucracy .And the huge increased individual penalties of up to $10 million are bullying real producers out of business.
      The National Act , NZ First coalition apparently just do as they are told by bureaucracy!
      A Labour led coalition would be no different.
      The Coalition was elected to take control , reduce Government spending and regulations ,not to mention supporting the legal individual rights of ALL NZ citizens.
      They were supposed to govern!
      They have failed.
      Instead the bureaucracy/ coalition have hugely increased penalties fines etc on deviation from their ever increasing regulations bullying the populace.
      The MMP election process has become meaningless for NZ voters.
      The same Bureaucracy rules ( and grows) no matter what, supported by corporate NZ.
      
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      November 18, 2025 11:11am
      - RoboRob
        
        ‘A Labour led coalition would be no different’. I think it would. Labour and the bureaucracy generally align and so the situation would accelerate.
        
        But yeah, the coalition had a golden opportunity in year one which was squandered.
        
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        November 18, 2025 1:42pm
  - Souvlaki
    
    Yes, ‘going back to the same people who failed last time’, is sadly likely to happen. There are a LOT of former National supporters who feel totally disenfranchised by them…starting with their hapless leader “I see NOTHING I like in the Treaty Principles Bill” …and things have slowly gone downhill from there.
    It is called ‘biting one’s nose off to spite one’s face’. Voters are (imo) ,so pissed off with National, this is the likely scenario..REVENGE…& ‘stuff the sequalae’ !
    Luxon is quite simply out of touch….I see a revisit of Jenny Shipley’s electoral demise. Same imperious ,irritating manner.
    
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    November 18, 2025 9:48am
    - pdm
      
      `There are a LOT of former National supporters who feel totally disenfranchised by them…starting with their hapless leader ………………………………’
      
      I agree Souv.
      
      What I cannot understand is why National is not at 25% and ACT over 15% in Polls.
      
      Note to self – check undecideds in all future polls.
      
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      November 18, 2025 11:05am
      - Local Miller
        
        Part of the reason Act’s numbers aren’t going up more is because the first swing voters to leave National are those who would swing to Liebour, not those who would swing to Act. It will take further poor performance from National for the more center right swing voters to start moving to Act.
        Another factor is that a not insignificant number of voters see Act as part of the problem given they are in the coalition. The thought being: “We voted for Act so they could form a government with Nation and get some of their good policies through, and they (collectively) haven’t achieved what we expected”
        
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        November 18, 2025 11:43am
      - Paulus
        
        Why not question some of the possibly biased polls.
        He whom pays the Piper calls the tunes.
        
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        November 18, 2025 2:00pm
      - Graeme Hall
        
        I wonder about the validity of the “polls” today. If I understand correctly the method these days is quota-based (rather than a random sample of the population) so the same group of people are being asked repeatedly on variations of the same group of issues. Many, if not all, of these folk being polled are self-selected. If so, how can anyone take the published results as a true representation of the mood of the electorate at a given moment in time? The variation between concomitant polls shows differences between their own quota groups views and not much else.
        
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        November 18, 2025 3:15pm
    - R
      
      Souvlaki…..I imagine that you and many on this blog, would have been happier if the Coalition had on day one said…..” all the irresponsible decisions and legislation from the Adern/Hipkins 6 years of mismanagement are canceled immediately. Captains calls, massive increases of minimum wages, inflated public service salaries etc, will return to pre Ardern levels. Recipients of such largest will not be eligible for any welfare benefits, whilst we the coalition get the country back into production. ……………
      THOUGHT NOT!
      
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      November 18, 2025 12:05pm
      - Christopher Thomson
        
        National could have taken its time with the slow stuff if it had come out and fixed the easy stuff.
        
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        November 18, 2025 1:33pm
      - RoboRob
        
        Sounds pretty good.
        
        4 0
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        November 18, 2025 1:43pm
      - Graeme Hall
        
        Where do I sign?
        
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        November 18, 2025 3:16pm
  - kowtow
    
    I believe these are the “crucial” , “centrist” , swing voter for whom policy is now designed .
    
    Think about how Labour were unelectable under Little and then a large boost from Ardern’s elevation ,without any policy announcement.
    
    Then she won that impossible majoridy under MMP due to covid emotionalism . That majoridy quickly collapsed again due to covid weariness , even thopugh the same people put her in for “saving us”.
    
    Now thickos want to reward the very people who gave us inflation with the Treasury benches again.
    
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    November 18, 2025 10:15am
  - mogg
    
    The cost of living crisis was covered on TV3 news again last night. Hipkins was given the opportunity to say the coalition has failed and are making matters worse not better. Luxon in reply; “I say to you, we are working incredibly hard to get the basics right etc, etc”. Parroting the same old thing month after month is not the way to get to get your message across. Luxon is badly in need of media training either that or get somebody else to do the job.
    
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    November 18, 2025 10:32am
    - Ian Boag
      
      Parroting the same old thing month after month is not the way to get to get your message across.
      
      KBers know this 🙂
      
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      November 18, 2025 11:02am
      - RoboRob
        
        You sure do:) Hows that CGT you love so much going?
        
        7 0
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        November 18, 2025 11:06am
      - Yabster
        
        [Mod – debate the topic]
        
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        November 18, 2025 11:48am
    - R
      
      Luxon is…….No NO. The MSM is badly in need of training in the basics of economics, the ability to identify fact from fiction, and the ability to write clear concise english language articles without ideological bias.
      
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      November 18, 2025 12:08pm
      - Paulus
        
        You must be joking as the media are the experts even better than their University friends.
        The media know how to misinterpret any and everything they want to oppose the Government.
        
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        November 18, 2025 2:03pm
    - MCōs
      
      I think NZ needs a bit of vision
      Wouldn’t that be novel and I don’t mean yet another ’artist’s impression’ of a second Mt Vic Tunnel or a second Harbour Bridge
      The country needs a kick in the pants right now
      Americas Cup — gone
      International cricket over Christmas/New Year — gone
      International Sevens — gone
      Flash inter island ferries — gone
      Police, doctors, engineers etc — gone
      Winston and his ever changing populist members bills to keep him above 5% — not gone
      
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      November 18, 2025 5:58pm
  - Christopher Thomson
    
    Albert Einstein did not originate the quote, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. While it is widely attributed to him, there is no evidence he ever said or wrote it; the phrase likely originated in 12-step programs in the early 1980s. The earliest known print appearances of similar phrasing are from 1983 in a novel by Rita Mae Brown and in Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous literature from around the same time.
    
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    November 18, 2025 10:35am
    - Cassandra
      
      Thank you for that. As Einstein said there’s always someone who’ll spoil a good story.
      
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      November 18, 2025 11:16am
      - imalwaysright
        
        Very good
        
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        November 18, 2025 12:12pm
    - Ra Henare
      
      The original came from Abraham Lincoln on one of his substack posts 1864!
      
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      November 18, 2025 4:57pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    I call Ipsos leftie toilet outfit, they are nuts, why are we even talking about that, it was not a poll on the parties and election voting, why? did it not fit the narrative? I note the gap between right direction wrong direction has closed, you would have though it had widened.
    
    There has been 3 polls the last 2 weeks, 2 have the coalition comfortably ahead, and one says the opposition will make it back with a 1 seat to spare, but if TPM are wiped out and that could well happen, then they only get 55 seats
    
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    November 18, 2025 3:33pm
- Prince
  
  Odd how we never see the questions or introductory script to these ‘surveys’.
  Almost as though they are hiding and promoting something.
  
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  November 18, 2025 8:42am
  - R
    
    They are promoting something. That something is called COMMUNISIM, but our journalists are far to ideologically driven to recognize the danger they are promoting.
    
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    November 18, 2025 3:46pm
- Hugh Jarse
  
  It’s similar to battered spouse syndrome where the spouse just can’t break away from the person who is doing them the most damage.
  
  With the prospect of a Labour/Greens/TPM+ coalition in mind watch the number of educated skilled younger people disappearing out of New Zealand increase as the next election approaches. The country will be populated by oldies who are too old to follow their children and immigrants waiting to get their NZ residency/citizenship so they too can head to Australia.
  
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  November 18, 2025 9:14am
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    In the next couple of years we should expect to see Aus pulling up the drawbridge.
    
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    November 18, 2025 10:48am
  - pdm
    
    Hugh J – I think The Maori Party self annihilation is rapidly ruling them out of the picture.
    
    The biggest danger again is Winston First chasing the baubles and Hipkins is such a power hungry fool he might even let Winston share the big one – the PM mantle.
    
    Whatever Winston said about Hipkins earlier in the year will be well over ridden by said baubles.
    
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    November 18, 2025 11:12am
    - Hugh Jarse
      
      Maybe PDM, they could also reconstitute or will leave a vacuum for a similar group to fill. Unfortunately I think we will see their ilk again in one form or another.
      
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      November 18, 2025 11:50am
      - Ra Henare
        
        Think you will find Winston has all the baubles he needs. Mega Rich Girlfriend.
        
        Hob nobbing buddies around the world.
        He will be chasing a Legacy. ie Winston saved us.
        
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        November 18, 2025 5:00pm
Sparrow

It so good to see that a future leader of the National Party is fine tuning his CV. Has added Pork Barrelling. Take money from housing to help his lycra clad constituents to cross a bridge. The upside is the homeless can sleep under the bridge. Oh f…the river.
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November 18, 2025 8:24am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  That is a crock of shit, under Labour they were given the funding for storm water, but it was the council that asked for the funding to be given to this project, i have never ever seen Bishop mention cycling or riding in Lycra, I have seen him talk about his running and cricket, never mentioning cycling.
  
  This funding had already been allocated to council for storm water, it is not some sort of extra hand out.
  
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  November 18, 2025 3:37pm
Paulus

Yesterday I queried as to where Tova was as she had not been seen for a while and there is an election brewing.
Stuff must have read me for today she is back with her usual vitriol against Luxon and the Coalition Government as Political Editor for Stuff.
Stuff, she is the last person to help you sell newspapers (sic).
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November 18, 2025 8:26am
- KKNZ2025
  
  I understand that she had a child a while ago, hence has been otherwise engaged
  
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  November 18, 2025 8:33am
  - zulumonster
    
    If it was possible to run a country (into the ground) while being a mother to a newborn, then it should be possible to summon the vitriol Stuff demand for a politically neutral article once or twice a week?
    
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    November 18, 2025 10:07am
- Cassandra
  
  It’s a rubbish article, usual snide slant, but it does raise some serious concerns. Regardless of dopey voters, National has got to show – by actions – that it can improve the cost of living problem. No doubt a team of pollsters will be ferreting out some answers. Reduce benefits to reward middle class Nats? Hardball required.
  
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  November 18, 2025 8:41am
  - septic skeptic
    
    I think framing the issue as a cost of living problem is misleading. To me it implies that prices are high relative to wages and benefits and that somehow this can be fixed by tweaking a knob or pulling a lever. What we have is a productivity problem. Too many minimum wage earners paying no net tax, too many beneficiaries including pensioners, too many public servants and far too few highly productive people. Due in part to the crisis in education our retiring workforce is better educated than the younger generation entering the workforce. Talented people head offshore where they are more valued. The number of retired people is increasing relative to those working.
    Cost of living crisis? That’s not what I would call it.
    
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    November 18, 2025 8:52am
    - Ian Boag
      
      You could maybe share a moderataly detailed solution with us …. 🙂
      
      2 8
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      November 18, 2025 11:14am
      - Local Miller
        
        Start rewarding companies for retaining good staff and paying them decent salaries and staff retention. Give tax benefits for companies that show productivity growth.
        I’m in an interesting situation, I can retire soon, but I have an unusual skill set that our company will lose when I retire. What I do isn’t something you can learn from a book or uni, but I can pass on the skills by working alongside and training others. Now there’s no reason for me to retire and I have no desire to stop working. Quite the opposite in fact, I’d rather work another 5+ years. I’m trying to get the company to move me into a more focused roll where I use my skill set more AND train our staff and my replacement to do what I do. Then when I retire, rather than losing me, the company has several people who can effectively pick up what I do.
        The problem is there’s little incentive for the company to employ someone alongside me to pick up my day to day work so I can change my work focus and start an internal training program. I’m worth too much to the company in the short term doing what I do, and spending money now for a goal that’s 2+ years in the future is difficult to sell to the board, especially since most of the board don’t understand what I do.
        Things like inhouse training should get decent tax benefits, company tax could be progressive rather than regressive, like dropping the tax rate as profits improve, but also tie this into salary/profit ratios to encourage increasing salaries rather sacrificing staff to increased salaries.
        We were a startup 5 years ago, we’ve gone from 8 FTEs to 35 FTEs in this time, but there’s no incentives to grow, and a lot of incentives to slow our growth. If you want to fix the economy you need to put in place policies that will encourage companies like ours to expand and increase salaries, staff numbers and services.
        
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        November 18, 2025 3:01pm
    - Paulus
      
      We still have the highest Minimum Wage in the OECD !
      And no productivity, except in the farms.
      QED
      
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      November 18, 2025 2:07pm
  - Foxfour
    
    Thats amazing , you saying the same dismissive words as Luxon for various polls saying the same result.
    Luxon needs better spin doctors providing him with better talking points
    Tova says
    ‘In February 2024, the first IPSOS Monitor after the election, 39% of New Zealanders thought National were the team for the job, just 23% thought Labour could do it.
    
    Fast-forward to now, about a year out from the next election, it’s flipped, 36% for Labour, 24% for National.”
    The voters are always right , my dear not the Trojan prophetess
    
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    November 18, 2025 8:54am
    - Philview
      
      I fully expect Labour to win next year and we will once again have no objective scrutiny of the country’s governance from most of the media.
      
      7 2
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      November 18, 2025 9:35am
      - R
        
        ‘no objective scrutiny…………’With a return to the ‘coalition of incompetence and corrupt practices’ we will very quickly not have a country to scrutinize by mid 2027.
        
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        November 18, 2025 4:00pm
    - Libertarians are right
      
      “Voters are always right” may be the dumbest thing you’ve ever written. That’s actually pretty impressive.
      
      Voters can’t be always right because they literally all have different opinions. Some are right on some things. Many are stupid. We have a democracy to do what the majority want, not what’s right.
      
      The issue is that Labour destroyed our economy and National were expected to come in and immediately fix it but haven’t managed yet. Meanwhile, the media and the Left (but I repeat myself) have managed to successfully create a narrative where the problems weren’t caused by Labour and that National have somehow made things worse. Both are ridiculous lies but as I said, voters are often stupid.
      
      15 1
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      November 18, 2025 9:42am
      - Foxfour
        
        Digging the grave even deeper I see. Carry on
        
        The ‘stupid sheeple voters’ meme is a bit worn dont you think.
        
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        November 18, 2025 3:50pm
      - Ra Henare
        
        Maybe we should be following the Singapore Model??
        
        This strategic advantage has been complemented by the most stable and efficient government worldwide, as of 2023, known for its long-term planning, pragmatic policies, and zero tolerance for corruption. The government’s proactive approach in driving economic development, urban planning, and social policies has ensured steady progress and stability.
        
        But that would require an authoritarian/Dictatorship leader like Lee Quan Yew.
        
        Sorry, don’t see that happening in “”let’s be nice”” land of the long white Cloud.
        
        But maybe if we keep importing Chinese/Indians at the current rate, they might be able to push Kiwis in the right direction. They currently make up 18%? of the population, and fast overtaking those who identify as Maori, 17.3%
        
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        November 18, 2025 5:11pm
    - OTGO
      
      Surely the increase in the polls for Labour is on the back of the latest fuckwittery from the Greens and the Maori Party and voters swinging to Labour from them.
      
      9 0
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      November 18, 2025 11:36am
      - Foxfour
        
        The why has trust and vote for national cratered.
        
        Time to spin the bottle for new leader and Minister for Finance… or will there be ‘a reset’ media spin after the Xmas break
        
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        November 18, 2025 3:52pm
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Ipsos is an utter leftie toilet, there has been 3 polls in the last 2 weeks, Morgan that had the Coalition 6 seats ahead, TPU (Curia poll that had Coalition 4 seats ahead, and Talbot that was so far at of whack its irrelevant, and even in that case the opposition only get in by 1 seat, and if TPM lose their seats then Coalition are done
      
      5 2
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      November 18, 2025 12:04pm
  - RoboRob
    
    I don’t think the solution to Nationals terrible polling is punishing beneficiaries, I am surprised that you think that would be a vote winner! One would assume that under Nationals management the various benefits are being run appropriately, I certainly see signs of that.
    
    As I have said before, I think the majority of Nationals problems relate to a lack of communication. Yes National have reneged on various election promises but people don’t know why the public service hasn’t been reduced by 20k (or at all). We don’t know why National are borrowing MORE money then Labour was. There may be good reasons, what are they? What is Nationals plan? By all appearances it is to hope that a reduced OCR will spark an economic recovery, that’s hardly a plan is it.
    
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    November 18, 2025 10:01am
    - Cassandra
      
      I’m recommending that National reward its voters at the expense of Labour’s. Just as the left does. But of course it’d be camouflaged. At the same time the Tovas of this world would be given lengthy scholarships to the postgrad journalism school at Waiouru. //
      
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      November 18, 2025 11:21am
      - G the giant from Dunedin
        
        I do think the policy of lifting tax thresholds is to be 3 yearly, so i think they will say again that we will be increasing the thresholds like they use to be
        
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        November 18, 2025 12:06pm
      - RoboRob
        
        Oh, I’m totally in for that 🙂
        
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        November 18, 2025 1:47pm
    - R
      
      Robo,… I am sure that you remember the prolific borrowing of money by Robertson to buy votes, effectively. That money has to be repaid, WITH interest, and since it wasn’t invested in productive enterprises the present Coalition has to continue borrowing, albeit at a much lesser rate. This simple business economics101 is beyond our media, hence they aren’t able to explain the reason for the countries dismal productivity
      
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      November 18, 2025 4:09pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  Yes, and can she tell us where Luxon is not listening to the voter as she says?
  
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  November 18, 2025 3:38pm
Chuck Bird

Mike Hosking had the climate change alarmist, former PM Turnbull on. He should be kicked out of the Liberal Party.
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November 18, 2025 8:29am
- Nikola Donatello
  
  The Liberal Party recently dumped “net zero”.
  
  https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-11-16/coalition-joint-net-zero-position-leaked-submission/106015290
  
  I don’t understand what they replaced it with. Neither will the Australian voters.
  
  The reality is that the Liberal Party in Australia has been divided over climate change forever.
  
  I predict that this position will doom them.
  
  Of course the National Party in New Zealand deals with the net zero problem but refusing to discuss it. And hope somehow it all goes away. Which it might.
  
  BTW how many voters or journalists could explain what the “net” in net zero means? What is the Zero “net of”? 🤡
  
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  November 18, 2025 8:47am
  - Chuck Bird
    
    The Liberals did not dump net zero. They dumped net zero by 2050. There is a big difference.
    
    7 1
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    November 18, 2025 8:53am
    - Nikola Donatello
      
      Your big difference won’t be seen by the Australian voters.
      
      Think about us. If Chris Luxon announced tomorrow that the Net Zero act was being a dumped, they would lose the next election massively.
      
      2 6
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      November 18, 2025 9:53am
      - AitchW
        
        I’m not so sure. Plenty of people see the Paris Accord as expensive, destructive to farming, and pretty much pointless given our tiny contribution to carbon in the atmosphere. Not to mention the creative accounting used to “prove” that cows cause global warming.
        Dumping the Paris Accord might just be Luxon’s golden bullet.
        
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        November 18, 2025 9:58am
      - Chuck Bird
        
        Sadly, we may lose anyway. There is a paywall as newspappers cannot run at a loss. It worth pay about $4 a week and you can comment as well.
        
        National is still fighting the last war and risks losing the next one – Thomas Coughlan
        
        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/national-still-fighting-the-last-war-risk-losing-the-next-one-thomas-coughlan/premium/ZN2JCCR55ZCOTJKGP7DRHN6YNU/
        
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        November 18, 2025 10:19am
      - Cassandra
        
        Not if Luxon [Mod – use correct names] n did it cleverly and improved workers standard of living.
        
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        November 18, 2025 11:23am
      - kowtow
        
        AW
        
        Common sense politicians need to get their message across about dumping the Trotskyite , internationalist , undemocratic UN climate scam.
        
        It means fighting the legacy media and the long march through the institutions .
        
        Once thicko swing voters learn the reason their power bills and therefor every other bill is so high etc they might wake up .
        That jobs depend on cheap power .Etc
        
        One huge problem now is so many people are so heavily invested in big govt . That too must stop as it also is expensive and wildly unproductive.
        
        Is it any wonder the left always seeks to control education , media , institutions in order to keep people stupid and supine.
        
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        November 18, 2025 11:27am
  - Foxfour
    
    Going away?
    Its National policy to continue John Keys ‘30% less by 2030’ Paris rule which is now law
    
    Indeed this years budget included $2 bill in Vote Environment to buy carbon credits for the various sectors such as farmers and large export businesses like Fonterra so that 30% less number is achieved. Car drivers and gas users pay tax upfront for that carbon output
    
    We can credit Jenny Shipleys government for including NZ agriculture ( normally counted as carbon neutral) in the Kyoto agreement
    
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    November 18, 2025 9:03am
    - Nikola Donatello
      
      BOTH parts of your comment are wrong.
      
      The $2 billion cost in Vote Environment to buy New Zealand units for those sectors is not a net cost to the Crown. The government is the monopoly issuer of New Zealand units. The $2 billion is paid from Vote Environment back to the crown.
      
      The second part of your comment is also totally wrong. Agriculture emissions have nothing to do with the Kyoto protocol. Those emissions are counted in the emissions inventory of EVERY nation. New Zealand is no different to every country.
      
      EDIT The 30 percent reduction cannot be met. Not the last time I checked. Happy for you to correct me.
      
      10 1
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      November 18, 2025 9:47am
      - Foxfour
        
        You have tried playing that game over the $2 bill spend on Carbon credits in Vote Enviromnet before
        
        Wheres the $2 bill revenue in the Vote Environment or other department then. You cant so your claim is a lie. Just quote the page number and short description of your revenue claim or accept the truth
        
        The government – of all parties – has been spending $ 100s of mills each year for 2 decades now on carbon credits for farmers and other big industries that get free credits. Its now grown to just under $ 2bill
        
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        November 18, 2025 3:59pm
  - Master Mariner
    
    Net Zero is the Key wording or more to the point NET.
    In a nutshell it means some ( Elite) can pay for transportation etc , ie Plane trips while the mere plebs will not be able to afford to fly due to not being able to “offset” carbon pricing.
    In other words why not Zero ? See above, Some are more “Equal” than others it would appear //
    
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    November 18, 2025 9:26am
    - Nikola Donatello
      
      I see the sarcasm but no incorrect
      
      4 0
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      November 18, 2025 9:48am
      - Master Mariner
        
        Ok, Going back to my point using AI to explain it better.
        [ Mod – if you want to do an AI dump, save/share it and post the link maybe with a bit of explanation ]
        
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        November 18, 2025 10:52am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Nats are waiting for it to tip over, its a matter of time
    
    0 1
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    November 18, 2025 3:38pm
    - Foxfour
      
      Possum in the headlights.
      It would require them to declare ‘The risen carbon god was fake all along’
      Zero chance they will admit they were conned
      
      1 2
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      November 18, 2025 4:02pm
      - NZer In Exile
        
        A lot of sceptical scientists in fields relevant to climate DO admit they were originally taken in by alarmist propaganda. Not sure why that would be so hard for politicians. Selling their integrity for votes (from ignorant alarmists) maybe?
        
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        November 18, 2025 10:30pm
- lifesgood
  
  What on earth was Hosking thinking. O k to have opposing viewpoints but he was way too soft on him.
  
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  November 18, 2025 8:54am
MCōs

Ten years ago that Jonah died. The one great rugby superstar
The only Kiwi or rugby player whose photo I saw on the front page of one of the Thai language daily newspapers
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November 18, 2025 8:39am
- Philview
  
  I don’t know why, perhaps more stuff to do now but I didn’t bother watching the All Blacks Test against England. Years ago there is no way would I have skipped tuning into a big Test match liked that.
  
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  November 18, 2025 9:22am
  - AitchW
    
    We’re over rugbied! Super rugby starts early February, then it’s wall to wall till late November. Yawn.
    
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    November 18, 2025 9:39am
    - NothingLeft
      
      I never see any rugby news – but then I don’t read MSM NZ news sources given how execrable they are.
      
      The internet is a big place full of more interesting and less head-up-arsery stuff than Stuff
      
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      November 18, 2025 10:53am
    - MCōs
      
      Here in Auckland the Warriors, a middling NRL team are far more popular these days than any of the Auckland super or NPC teams. Even the Tongan league team filled Eden Park the other day, which the Blues never do.
      
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      November 18, 2025 11:21am
  - MCōs
    
    Some people have better things to do at four in the morning, like sleeping or letting off fireworks!
    
    7 1
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    November 18, 2025 9:42am
    - imalwaysright
      
      The All Blacks were asleep while the English were setting off the fireworks…
      
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      November 18, 2025 10:17am
    - rouppe
      
      I didn’t understand why they played the game when they did. If they’d played at 7pm local time it would have been a decent time in the morning here.
      
      4 1
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      November 18, 2025 10:30am
      - MCōs
        
        I don’t think we come into their thinking much
        
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        November 18, 2025 11:11am
      - pdm
        
        To my knowledge all big games at Twickers are afternoon games rouppe.
        
        The same at all the big UK rugby stadiums – they don’t seem to worry about times of games clashing.
        
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        November 18, 2025 11:21am
      - AitchW
        
        Maybe they don’t have lights… And 7pm in London in mid November is blooody cold, not likely to encourage a big walk up crowd.
        
        2 0
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        November 18, 2025 1:01pm
      - MCōs
        
        In the meantime the Paris games are at about 9am NZ time, which is 9pm over there
        Figure that out
        
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        November 18, 2025 1:12pm
- Jake Dee
  
  looking back now the story of Jonah Lomu is an excellent example of a “fast life” story. Incredibly successful, strong, tall and fast. despite the best medical treatments available dead of kidney failure and a heart attack at age 40.
  Big men who work hard and fight hard don’t tend to live long.
  
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  November 18, 2025 3:26pm
Chuck Bird

This is very interesting.

The Solar Storms We Ignore
Why a Carrington-Class Event Should Scare You More Than a Degree of Warming
Dr. Matthew Wielicki

https://irrationalfear.substack.com/p/the-solar-storms-we-ignore
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November 18, 2025 9:52am
- Phronesis
  
  If he was writing in NZ he would point out that the major natural risk facing this country is the near certainty of a magnitude 8 rupture of the Alpine fault system occurring this century.
  
  7 1
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  November 18, 2025 10:50am
- NothingLeft
  
  Meh. Mostly a non-issue. Electronics are all pretty well guarded, and grid is only at danger if it has large rings though which changing magnetic flux can induce voltages – a problem in some continental locations – but can be designed for, a lot of countries have grids that have no significant loops
  
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  November 18, 2025 10:56am
NZGUY

a cynical person would look at Chris Hipkins proposing to his partner and think “a full year out from an election? I hope he gets the female votes now”
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November 18, 2025 9:59am
- AitchW
  
  I suspect that most female voters will look at him marrying his former bit on the side and shake their heads. You know the old saying, once the mistress becomes the wife there’s a new job vacancy….
  This will not endear him to any but the most deluded female voters.
  
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  November 18, 2025 11:13am
  - Jake Dee
    
    wouldn’t 50% of females identify with the wife who got knocked off her perch and 50% identify with the mistress who knocked her off it?
    
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    November 18, 2025 3:33pm
    - NZer In Exile
      
      There was no wife knocked off a perch in this case was there?
      
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      November 18, 2025 10:36pm
- kowtow
  
  Why would females vote for him , when he wouldn’t define what a female is .
  
  A guy who hides his basics on the birds and the bees is more trusted on the economy etc than the current coalition.
  
  Tells you all you need to know about a very large proportion of the electorate.
  
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  November 18, 2025 11:16am
- Ghost
  
  Or like me, would simply not care.
  
  6 2
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  November 18, 2025 11:22am
- Philview
  
  I know politics is tough on families but Chris Hipkins was once presented as the family man with young children. Now he is the romantic partner proposing it appears to a younger woman. I am sure he has been through tough times in his personal life but the media presentation is a bit gushing.
  
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  November 18, 2025 11:26am
  - kowtow
    
    All the world’s a stage ……..
    
    2 2
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    November 18, 2025 12:09pm
- imalwaysright
  
  I wonder if the engagement was a surprise to Chris?
  
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  November 18, 2025 12:30pm
- Paulus
  
  He will, as they would also favour the accepted return of Dame Jacinda !
  
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  November 18, 2025 2:12pm
Swifty

Boy triumphs against the dead skeletal hand of local government:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/when-a-child-beekeeper-in-california-learned-his-hives-broke-the-law-he-rallied-support-to-change-it/EL52IWQHXFGJLASBHK6C7KEVGQ/

Those that support the Uber drivers here, would no doubt side with the City of Santa Rosa and would wish to crush the little boy – it’s the law after all.
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November 18, 2025 10:26am
MCōs

Happening now
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQzpmFYjZzg/?igsh=ZWxwMGRwMWluNmVy
3 3
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November 18, 2025 10:45am
- MCōs
  
  Not amused?
  https://www.instagram.com/reel/DQrYN2eDCep/?igsh=ZjdrdDY5MWxraW81
  
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  November 18, 2025 11:02am
- Libertarians are right
  
  Where’s Zelensky pretending to play a piano with his penis?
  Oh wait, this is only made up stuff.
  
  2 1
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  November 18, 2025 11:16am
- NZer In Exile
  
  Any other sources for whatever this is? I tend to avoid the big-tech parasitic platforms.
  
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  November 18, 2025 10:40pm
artemisia

More than half of apprentices leave before completing. What a waste. BCITO reports –

Research for the Building and Construction Industry Training Organisation, BCITO, presented at the conference indicated personal circumstances, redundancy, and poor support from training advisors were the most commonly-cited reasons that stopping an apprenticeship.

Not sure what those reasons actually mean, though ‘redundancy’ gives a clue, but do have a bit of info from a young (20s) tradie in the fam. He did a half year trades foundation course at polytech before starting an apprenticeship. From a class of more than 20, 4 completed and went on to apprenticeships. A few did not last a week.

Couldn’t hack it, maybe was not for them, but chances are the standard of education was inadequate. Work ethic? Best not to go there.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/579181/penny-simmonds-concerned-less-than-50-percent-of-trainees-completing-apprenticeships
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November 18, 2025 10:59am
- imalwaysright
  
  I think that many young people are so addicted to their device that any separation from it induces a sense of panic.
  The phone is their mum, and they are babies.
  
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  November 18, 2025 12:34pm
- NothingLeft
  
  Obviously the apprenticeships are not offering as much to participants as other things – like maybe they are finding better paying jobs before finishing? Certificates are less valuable to employers and employees than actual skills and work ethic.
  
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  November 18, 2025 12:39pm
  - R
    
    If these apprentice dropouts haven’t completed training, what skills are they going to use for finding better paying jobs? Tried hiring a cheap plumber or electrician lately.
    
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    November 18, 2025 4:19pm
Libertarians are right

I’ve been wondering about the “Epstein List” and Trump’s flipflopping on it.
It’s well known at this point that he’s an irrational narcissist.

I wonder if his original flipflop was due to the fact his name was in there. Not as a perpetrator (because we’d know by now if there was any evidence) but simply as proof he lied and that whole blowing Bubba thing. Trump is totally narcissistic enough to stop the whole thing just to save himself a little bit of embarrassment.

Now that the truth about Trump is out, which was barely a molehill, he’s again interested in getting the whole thing out there. Imagine being such an irrational narcissist that that tiny blip would affect your positions!

The Left’s position is now that “he knew and did nothing” which is interesting because he actually did a lot more than all of Weinstein’s friends. I wonder if they’re going to hold Weinstein’s friends accountable in the same way?
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November 18, 2025 12:07pm
imalwaysright

A good honest critique of RNZ from Karl du Fresne.

http://karldufresne.blogspot.com/2025/11/what-privilege-sounds-like-in-2025.html
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November 18, 2025 12:19pm
TripeWryter

I saw that a poster earlier had referred to Thomas Coughlan’s story in the once-Royal New Zealand Herald yesterday about National fighting the last war and likely not able to win the next.
I read the story last night.
Perhaps because it was night I might have missed something.
The story was detailed.
Thomas Coughlan unleashed an artillery barrage’s worth of facts, details, polls. Some history. A lot of research.
It was perhaps a couple of thousand words’ worth.
But he never explained the ‘war’ of the past that National was still fighting, such that they might not win the General Election next year.
The story doesn’t support the headline.
I am left with no idea of what he’s talking about.
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November 18, 2025 12:27pm
- mandk
  
  Maybe its because the headline was clickbait, written by a sub-editor (aka Clickbait Operative).
  
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  November 18, 2025 2:08pm
- Paulus
  
  Coughlan is a true born Labourite and it shows in everything he does.
  
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  November 18, 2025 2:15pm
- R
  
  The war that Coughlin is talking about, is the pursuance of the Marxist REVOLUTION in NZ. National are not interested in ideological revolutions, they want a credible future for ALL NZers, even if the media don’t
  
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  November 18, 2025 4:23pm
  - TripeWryter
    
    R:
    Thanks for taking the trouble to do young Coughlan’s job for him.
    
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    November 18, 2025 6:21pm
Swifty

Palestinians like to start their jihadis young:

https://x.com/actbrigitte/status/1990217675470193020?s=46

Putting their UNRWA funding, including NZ’s contributions, to good use I see.
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November 18, 2025 1:17pm
- Gravelroad
  
  The Green Party people here will love this.
  Using little kids as political fodder.
  Break out the flags and scarves and make your six-year-old go on the free Palestine March next time.
  
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  November 18, 2025 3:07pm
  - AitchW
    
    Every single protest with Greens, Maori , or Labour backing has little kids waving placards. Are they any better than Hamas? They may not be encouraging their kids to be terrorists or suicide bombers but they are brainwashing them nevertheless.
    
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    November 18, 2025 8:45pm
Ghost

Oh well, no one will care

https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360890547/major-power-outage-parliament
2 0
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November 18, 2025 1:58pm
Chuck Bird

I just finished reading Tony Abbott, book on the history of Australia.

I think he would rate as one of the best PMs in Australasia
2 4
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November 18, 2025 3:18pm
- Mike
  
  Care to rate the top ten , or twenty?
  
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  November 18, 2025 3:45pm
- Biscuit
  
  Chuck, I’m far from being a leftie but I just love Peter FitzSimons’ work in the SMH.
  
  Last week he re-ran a piece (originally printed in 2023) on the just-deceased broadcaster John Laws and, no idea why, your fancy (in office 2013-2015) wasn’t even MENTIONED in a ranking of Australia’s Prime Ministers in Laws’ era:
  
  Fitz: OK, let’s go through the latter-day prime ministers who you’ve known and interviewed extensively, and you give them a mark out of 10. Bob Hawke?
  JL: Nine
  Fitz: Paul Keating?
  JL: Nine.
  Fitz: John Howard?
  JL: Ten.
  Fitz: Kevin Rudd?
  JL: Four.
  Fitz: Julia Gillard?
  JL: Seven.
  Fitz: Scott Morrison?
  JL: Oh, I can’t even remember him!
  Fitz: Anthony Albanese?
  JL: Oh, I like him. I think he’s going well. I think I’d give him nine out of 10.
  
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  November 18, 2025 3:54pm
  - Mike
    
    More forgettable than ScoMo?
    
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    November 18, 2025 4:17pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  He’s pretty switched on and logical. This of course caused lefties to hate on him with extreme venom (as they do with Seymour). Sadly Abbott has a somewhat unusual manner of speaking which I think caused lefties to concentrate their irrational hatred on him even more. Oh and he’s Catholic, so even more hate from the left.
  
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  November 18, 2025 10:48pm
vand

“Ah well, no one will care

https://www.stuff.co.nz/politics/360890547/major-power-outage-parliament”

Ghost: That will really occur on election night 2026 for one main party
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November 18, 2025 3:23pm
- Mike
  
  Predictions are hard to make, especially about the future.
  
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  November 18, 2025 4:19pm
Jack5

The exchange rate between the kiwi dollar and the Australian dollar affects comparable wages and living costs.

The kiwi dollar has been falling against the Australian dollar. This graph shows the trend (click on the 12m button at the bottom of the graph to get the 12-months move):

https://wise.com/au/currency-converter/nzd-to-aud-rate/chart
3 1
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November 18, 2025 4:39pm
greybeard

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/360890197/i-was-so-excited-man-discovers-new-50-million-year-old-species-fish

[Mod – there is no need for that]
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November 18, 2025 5:51pm
Swifty

My god.

No tracking.

Waste and abuse.

https://x.com/taxpayersunion/status/1990578849521021281?s=46

These are the critical and essential public services that Labour wants more of.
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November 18, 2025 6:04pm
Ghost

Having just got surveyed, I wonder what political party this bright idea comes from

Trialling prize draws for drivers who pass safety cameras under the speed limit
2 0
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November 18, 2025 8:10pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  I suppose if there is a 100 Million dollar jackpot some people might not speed when they otherwise would. Otherwise….
  
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  November 18, 2025 10:52pm

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