Trotter on Right Wing Blogs
September 30th, 2006 at 3:09 pm by David FarrarIt hasn’t appeared online yet so I’ve copied below yesterday’s Chris Trotter column on right-wing bloggers.
Trotter praises the video parody “Pay It Back” as proof positive that right now it’s the right-wing that is making all the running and (it’s only fair to say) having all the fun.
However the rest of the column is a near semi-hysterical rant as he compares the bloggers to the Third Reich and commits the very same sins he accusses bloggers of. He also compares us to the McCarthy era and the US South fight to maintain segretation. yes – seriously!
So not only am I a Nazi, an anti-Semite, a racist and a McCarthyite, but according to Trotter I also hate women, gays, lesbians, Maori and immigrants.
Something has happened to Chris Trotter in the last two to three months. His columns used to be amongst the best in NZ. Everyone from right to left hung off them and he was quoted everywhere. But something seems to have happened to him, and every week he gets more bizarre from supporting corruption so long as National is kept out of office, to this hysterical rant. He makes Matthew Hooton sound like Colin James in comparison 
Anyway here is the article.
CRUEL WAR AGAINST `LIAR-BOUR’
Chris Trotter in Auckland
I FEEL unclean, as if I’ve just passed through a town in the grip of the plague.
I feel compromised, as if I’ve inadvertently opened a madman’s diary. I feel angry and aggrieved — and frightened.
I’ve been in the realm of the right-wing bloggers.
There is a style of political expression that delights in extremity and feeds on its elaboration.
In the past, the rhetoric it produced was restricted to the dinner tables of capitalism’s most vociferous middle-class defenders, and the bar-rooms of its most ignorant working-class dupes.
It was pernicious, but it was also confined — like a dangerous pitbull terrier — to the practitioner’s immediate circle of family, friends, workmates and acquaintances.
Only rarely was it permitted to break out of this confined political space to assault the wider public sphere — usually when those at the summit of society felt threatened by the stirrings of those at the base.
The incessant drum-beat of anti-democratic and anti-Semitic propaganda that characterised the politics of Weimar Germany, is probably the most vivid historical example of this phenomenon.
Other examples include the vicious red-baiting of the McCarthy era, and the outpouring of racist propaganda in the Deep South during the campaign for black civil rights in the early 1960s.
What differentiates those earlier periods of ugly political extremism from the present, is that they were permitted to continue only for as long as they served the interests of those who unleashed them.
Newspaper editors could decide when to publish the ravings of abusive letter-writers and when to consign them to the rubbish-bin.
Whether or not inflammatory utterances were banned as seditious or protected as free speech was entirely at the discretion of the judiciary.
Police commanders could issue permits for political demonstrations, or break them up as threats to public order.
In other words, the extremists’ ability to influence political events was strictly controlled.
Today, the development of the Internet and the explosive growth of the Worldwide Web has undermined the authorities’ ability to switch political extremism on and off like a gigantic megaphone.
The essentially anarchic nature of the Internet affords extremists of every hue — red and blue — unprecedented access to the sort of audiences activists formerly required considerable wealth and power to reach.
But right- and left-wing bloggers don’t need a set of multi-million-dollar printing presses or a network of radio and television transmitters to reach thousands of people. All they need is a personal computer and a phone connection.
This leaves political extremists completely free to peddle their most objectionable material directly to the public. They do not have to pass Go (secure the blessing of The Powers That Be) and they do not need to collect $200 (get their hands on the TPTB’s money).
The only constraint currently operating on political extremism is the imagination of its growing army of propagandists.
The current (quite brilliant) video parody of The Rolling Stones hit-single Paint It Black — “I see a red card and they got to pay it back. They stole from public funds now they must pay it back . . .” — is proof positive that right now it’s the right-wing that is making all the running and (it’s only fair to say) having all the fun.
And if there was nothing more in the right-wing blogosphere than clever video parodies there would be no genuine cause for concern.
Sadly, there is much, much more — and it is neither funny nor clever.
I hardly know where to begin to describe — let alone explain — the viciousness of the (mostly) young New Zealand males who inhabit this fetid environment. Their hostility towards the Left extends far beyond honest disagreements between fair-minded citizens over how best to organise human society.
In their eyes, the Labour Government is not merely mistaken, it is evil.
No term of abuse is too strong; no accusation too bizarre; no punishment too condign for Helen Clark and her “Liar-bour” colleagues.
And here I have to say that, inspiring and infusing a great deal of what ends up in the right-wing blogosphere, are deep-seated and profoundly disturbing feelings of hatred towards women, gays, lesbians, Maori and immigrants.
It has required only a single generation for the dragon’s teeth sown in the 1970s and 80s by the reckless identity politicians of the Left to produce a truly terrifying harvest.
The chilling lines of W. B. Yeats’s 1921 poem, The Second Coming, have finally, and to my great disquiet, assumed an ominously contemporary resonance: “The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity”.
September 30th, 2006 at 3:39 pm
“Newspaper editors could decide when to publish the ravings of abusive letter-writers and when to consign them to the rubbish-bin.”
Poor poor Mr. Trotter and his guardians of good taste in the mainstream media.. ..
Feeding us left wing garbage decade after decade under the guise of objective reporting.. ain’t much fun for Chris and his ilk now the rabbit has the shotgun…
More power to the blogosphere.. we’re going to burn your Potemkin village to the ground Mr. Trotter.. and there ain’t a damn thing you can do to stop us…
..and thanks to Mr. Farrar for putting this gob smacking example of old guard leftist bigotry on display..
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 3:56 pm
Being new to NZ and all I have no idea who this unhinged Trotterperson is.
Vote:And after reading that rant I don’t much care.
His main complaint seems to be that the peasants have taken over the metaphorical printing presses.
Boo hoo!
September 30th, 2006 at 4:01 pm
Darren, he has coined your Liarbour phrase! Well done.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 4:09 pm
Actually I kinda agree with Trotter – or at least it has inspired me to say something…
The reason I’ve almost totally given up reading comments on your blog, is the level of abuse, vitriol and ad hominem arguments. “You’re a liar”, “No you’re the liar”, “Anyway you’re fat”, “And you’re stupid” is not exactly interesting, illuminating or worthwhile.
I know the political climate at the moment is “tense” but I really miss the old Kiwiblog where there were reasoned arguments, genuine exchanges of ideas, and players from both sides were at least civil to each other.
Anyway, I’m not sure there’s much you can do given the medium (or even whether you want to do anything about it), but I wish there was some way back.
Anita
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 4:12 pm
I consider myself on the right (lib), and I love lesbians.. whats he on about?
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 4:13 pm
I suspect that Trotter as a beleiver in the “cause” is worried because all of the “activism” is occuring in the right wing of politics, people are angry and want a change, they oppose the actions of a government they see as bad for the country.
The past bastions of “left activism”, Universities and the union movement seem to have continued to be rather timid in the last 5 odd years, while the right appears to be more energised.
In the past it was the left that was angry and not going to take it any more, now the shoe is on the other foot.
Although his comments in the Independent this week conclude that if the Pledge card is not to become her Helengrad, they need to suck it in, pay it back and start to move on, otherwise they face being overrun in the trenches defending the indefensible.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 4:19 pm
Chris Trotter vapours:
I FEEL unclean, as if I’ve just passed through a town in the grip of the plague.
I feel compromised, as if I’ve inadvertently opened a madman’s diary. I feel angry and aggrieved — and frightened.
Wow, how did Chris Trotter know the reaction I’ve had watching his and Hooter’s idiot tag-team in the Sunday Smear-Whines? I don’t think I’m the only one who has noticed both men becoming rather nasty apologists for, dear I say it, a very extreme contempt for democracy in recent weeks – as long as it’s the “right side” engaging in election fraud (Trotter) or some bizarre de facto coup d’etat (Hooten)? If this is the ‘respectable’ face of political extremism, MSM style, I think it’s time Trotter takes a good hard look at himself.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 4:43 pm
I have never understood the centre-right enthusiasm for the analysis of Chris Trotter. His analysis is drawn from the rose tinted ‘trade aid shop’ experience in the Dunedin of his youth. Trotter gets heart from the idea that the young are sitting around in grubby duffle coats singing choruses of the Red Flag.
The only time he as been truly critical of Labour and the left generally is over the race relations issue. That I put down to his sensibilities as a Dunedinite. He has never conceded once that the 4th Labour Government got anything correct policy wise.
Thus far he has been gentile because Labour has seemed invincible. The odd debating point concession to the Tories (when one wins and holds real power anyway) is good form. But that’s all it was.
You see his true leftwing belief system coming out now.
The ‘pledge card problems and the auditor general’ is just so much Tory BS. The rule of law, constitutional conventions, proportionate responses, and upholding independent parliamentary officers – these are all so much Tory BS according to Mr Trotters way of thinking. What matters is real power. And having that real power makes one the boss. Getting, and retaining that real power is the sole game and the only rule is that one is justified in doing what is required to keep that power from the Tories. Restraints on the exercise of power are a Tory notion invented to restrain Labour Governments in doing the will of ordinary New Zealanders.
That is why his attitude to the pledge card wasn’t a surprise to me. He only expresses what hardcore leftwing activists actually think. They are angry with the Auditor General because he takes the issue out of the partisan contest into the realm of principles and an independent arbitration on the rights and wrongs of the issue. And as this disadvantages them they cannot separate the issues of principle from the partisanship. Thus the Auditor General is involved in a “smear.” What is his political angle? He must be a Tory! What Labour did was fair cause the Tories have it easy with money. And shock horror: the Exclusive Brethren.
He attacks the rightwing blogsphere because some better jounros are starting to look at the bigger picture on Labour’s behaviour. He thinks this is coming in some part from the web – so everyone here is a nutter. Mr Farrar and his happy band of commentors are all partisanship and no principle. Contrast his approach to Joanne Black’s editorial in the most recent Listener on the Exclusive Brethren which rightly detects Labour’s threat to the freedom of political expression and warns against this authoritarian streak and disproportionate response from Labour.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
I agree with anonymouse. I think while Helen was in good control unable to do anything wrong as a Left supporter Chris Trotter was quite happy and his comments were reasonable. Now the tide has turned against Labour he sees the possibility of a Labour defeat and is now raving insanely.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 4:52 pm
I agree with anonymouse. I think while Helen was in good control unable to do anything wrong as a Left supporter Chris Trotter was quite happy and his comments were reasonable. Now the tide has turned against Labour he sees the possibility of a Labour defeat and is now raving insanely.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 5:08 pm
Note that sonic is absent from these debates today.
If net gambling was legal (and it isn’t) I would wager $100 that he works for Labour.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 5:11 pm
I don’t think anyones been accused of being fat though.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 5:14 pm
Damned proud to be one of those nasty right wing bloggers!
Up yours Trotski!
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 5:14 pm
The thing that gets up my nose the most about his column yesterday, was that he basically doesn’t accept free speech, if its not something he agrees with.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 5:15 pm
The thing that gets up my nose the most about his column yesterday, was that he basically doesn’t accept free speech, if its not something he agrees with.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 5:31 pm
Have you been reading your comments section recently, DPF? Or the posts written by your fellow travellers over at Silent Running, Generation XY or Sir Humphreys?
Many of the denizens of the right wing blogosphere seem to consider you a dangerous left-winger, what with your tolerence of gays, migrants, other cultures and failure to murder Jordan Carter or Russell Brown despite numerous opportunities and all – so I doubt Trotter was referring to you. I think he’s more frightened by the ‘Any Muslim can be An Agent’ variety of wingnut blogging.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 5:35 pm
Danyl is actually Trotter in drag, no?
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 5:35 pm
Murray,
I think I gave up on comments at the point IP called Sophie obese in one of the Peter Davis threads. Not that it was particularly remarkable or worthy of mention, just the final straw.
Anita
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 5:37 pm
I found Chris Trotter’s column to be “disproportinate” to quote one of Dear Leaders favourite UN luvvie-speak words.
He also charged the right-wing Blogosphere with (YAWN) crimes against the Lefty Holy Trinity – Racism, Sexism, Homophobia etc. Ok, comments can be vitriolic, personal and hot-headed sometimes, but I have also seen apologies and concessions. I also notice Chris Trotter fails to point the finger at left-wing blogs intolerance when anyone disagrees with a lefty agenda. Comments can be just as vindictive and ignorant on Left blogs.
Trotter also froths about the ‘angry white man’
on Right Blogs. Hello! The angry Left Wing has kicked ‘white men’ out of their sphere of influence and made them the scapegoat for all that ills the world.
Finally, as a woman, I have hung my head in shame and have dearly wanted to bitch-slap, some of the hysterical ‘wimmin’ of the Left who claim to speak for all the sistas.
I have seen some of these women at various forums, protests etc, burst hysterically into tears, slump into semi-faints that would make Soul singer James Brown proud, and make ridiculous accusations such as “Every man is a rapist”. When I challenged the Feminazi’s about that quote, I was told to stop the “VERBAL RAPE” by a group of them. I wish Chris Trotter would be a bit more even in his ticking off of misbehaviour by both political camps.
Congratulations to Darren on making “Liar-bour” a word published by the MSM.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 5:50 pm
Anita, in the case of Sophie, there was nothing rational or intelligent to argue against. She expressed a point of view that was riddled with cliches nobody has taken seriously since the early 1970s. And if you are going to stereotype people, as she did, then calling her fat is just an amusing and ironic way of pointing out how absurd her comments were.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 5:50 pm
As always in the comments there are extremist posts from both left and right.If there were not, then the debates would not carry on for so long.
While some of the right blogosphere are more conservative than me on social issues, I’ve don’t beleive I am regarded badly – well except maybe by AJ Chesswas.
As for Russell I had lunch with him on Friday and yes plead guilty to forgetting to murder him.
Trotter refers to right wing bloggers, not those who comment on right wing blogs. I take that to be a comment on the main articles posted, and as the most well known right wing blogger, many will consider his criticism includes me.
His entire column is offensive elitism where he wistfully longs for the days when only “approved” voices can be heard.
Looking at other “right wing” blogs I don’t see how one portrays ACT on Campus, Andrew Falloon, Big News, Cactus Kate, Bernard Darnton, Peter Cresswell, Gen XY, Insolent Prick, Kiwi Pundit, Liberty Scott, Peter Metcalfe, Phil Sage etc (non exhaustive list) as McCarthite Nazis. Sure there are one or two right wing blogs where the rhetoric is sometimes over the top, but it is a minority.
I also note Trrotter gave no examples of this neo Nazi hate speech which we could then judge in context – he just reaches for as many offensive analogies as possible. If I was to stoop to his level I would accuse him of Goebells tactics.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 5:51 pm
Check out Louden’s post on the subject at http://www.newzeal.blogspot.com
Vote:Best quote
“Socialists like Chris Trotter have no vision of what is possible, so they cannot understand the frustration of those who do.”
September 30th, 2006 at 5:54 pm
Like a crashing aircraft the whining gets louder and louder just before the crash. Even an emergency landing is looking bad now that the wheels have fallen of the left wing.
Good on you Trotter, you are a fine example of why blogs have become so popular. It’s called unrestricted information flow. Get use to it.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 5:56 pm
For a while now, sirhumphreys has been stuck on July 30 on my ihug connections. While I — for the most part — consider this a feature and not a bug, I would be curious to read the contents of Danyl’s link. Anyone care to paste it in a comment?
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 6:00 pm
I always had the feeling that Chris Trotters theme song was Split Ends “Nobody Takes me seriously anyway”
Vote:In fact I seem to remember him whistling it while walking up Molesworth Street a week ago.
Terry J
September 30th, 2006 at 6:01 pm
I think the comments in blogsphere have actualy toned down. But then so what. Trotter cannot get his head around the fact that the intellectual case for the right is far better than the case for the left. And the right can argue toe to toe against the left. So what does he do, he tries to curb right wing opinion because he cannot mount a proper case against it. He belongs in China.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 6:03 pm
Anita, I know where you are coming from. The vitriol on this site jumped a big notch up in the run-up to the election. And it jumped about twice as high again when revelations of Brash’s affair came out. The last couple of weeks have been repulsive, on both sides of the fence, although this site attracts the ‘angry young rightist’ that Trotter derides, over all others by a factor of about 5:1. Or at least they post 5 times as much, which is quite probable, since angry prejudiced rags can be written easily, requiring little thought and no proofreading. But it’s a lot better than some of the other sites…
Fortunately they are even more easily ignored. This is the only point of departure from Trotter I have here, otherwise his column seems like quite an accurate portrayal. He doesn’t say anything anyone who’s read this blog doesn’t already know, he just doesn’t like it. I personally find it relatively interesting at times, certainly more so than waiting until the next day to hear the same 10 people’s predictable editorials in the paper (although I do that too, so long as I don’t have to pay for it). And in amongst the stupidity, you do actually get interesting constructive criticism of your own views occasionally. These nuggets are worth hunting in the much larger quantity of dross for. I find it much more satisfying than having expensive nuggets presented to me through 5 layers of editorial control.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 6:08 pm
I always had the feeling that Chris Trotters theme song was Split Ends “Nobody Takes me seriously anyway”
Vote:In fact I seem to remember him whistling it while walking up Molesworth Street a week ago.
Terry J
September 30th, 2006 at 6:16 pm
Ben Wilson’s frequent long winded smug condescending outpourings here are so dated in their underlying assumption of moral superiority, that supremely irritating “we know best because we’re leftists” attitude, that the right deserves praise for accepting such patronising infantile rubbish as mildly as they do. That leftists continue to preach to us in this priggish way, with their inexplicable belief that the partisan one dimensional crap they write represents some kind of objective truth shows that they just haven’t caught up.
We don’t need you to tell us what’s what Ben, because we think you are uninformed past your use by date socialist idiots. Get it?? No? Thought not. Well go away and think about it for a fucken day or two will you?
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 6:35 pm
Is it your cache? Try holding down and the F5 key.
Here’s an excerpt from the article Sir Humphreys linked to:
I have compared Islam to the movie “The Matrix,” where people are turned into slaves by living in a make-believe reality designed to keep them in chains. In the movie, everybody who hasn’t been completely unplugged from this artificial reality is potentially an agent for the system. I have gradually come to the conclusion that this is the sanest way to view Muslims, too.
There are crazy statements made by lefties in the blogosphere – but to my partisan eyes the rightwing nutters seem to outnumber the lefties by about twenty to one. Most recent kiwiblog threads have consisted of one or two lefties – usually sonic or phillipjohn – frantically parsing statements made by the Auditor General or railing against the Exclusive Bretheren while several dozen nutty rightwingers scream at them about Stalin, Heather Simpson, Pol Pot, Lesbian Facism, Neville Chamberlain, the toilets in Hagley Park, the Holocaust and so on.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 6:37 pm
Hey, does anyone know if there is an official name for the phenomenon of lefties eventually reducing every argument to an accusation of RacismSexismHomophobia?
If not, then I’m going to name the damned thing. I hereby christen it Mulholland’s Law of Left Wing Argument – Mulholland’s Law for short. Feel free to use it regularly next time you post a comment on Tumeke.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 6:40 pm
Paranoid dog shite alert…RB’s posting again.
It’s really got a grip on you today hasn’t it? Fingers trembling at the keyboard again RB? Gotten all hot and bothered about those nasty commies out to get you? Christ on a bike…talk about a crusading nut-job.
Unlike Ben who is usually the most civilised poster here (an attitide mistaken by you as condescension), I don’t give a flying fuck what anyone thinks of me, and you RB are the most arrogant, vile, hypocritical, ranting sewer rat of the lot. None of us could give a cockroach’s fart what diseased fantasies pass throught the febrile sack of pus that substituted for a functioning brain in your ugly skull long ago.
Crawl back under the fridge prat-boy, the scum there needs something to feel superior to. Or whine about it as usual. Whatever.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 6:51 pm
Quod erat demonstrandum.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 6:57 pm
If I’ve got under Redbaiter’s skin, I’m not surprised, or flattered. Nothing could have been easier. But I’m surprised he gets so many bites. The power of trolling is fast, easy and seductive. But not stronger.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 7:01 pm
Sure was, Anita.
Vote:Does Mr. Trotter know one of his pure-as-the-driven-snow lefties is posting garbage like Cretean’s?
September 30th, 2006 at 7:06 pm
No. I’ve tried multiple web browsers, including ones that don’t keep a cache (like w3m).
The top entry says to bear with sirhumphreys through technical difficulties.
http://www.sirhumphreys.com/al/2006/jul/29/sh_on_the_move
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 7:17 pm
I don’t know about yous fellas but at least we know how to point fun at eachother, something foreign to the left. Trotter is losing it.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 7:18 pm
ah, I think i see a problem.
I have configured bind to use 203.109.252.42 and 43. These are ihug’s DNS servers. 42 seems to have the incorrect information.
[mjl@rayon mjl]$ dig sirhumphreys.com @203.109.252.42
; >> DiG 9.3.2 >> sirhumphreys.com @203.109.252.42
; (1 server found)
;; global options: printcmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER> DiG 9.3.2 >> sirhumphreys.com @203.109.252.43
; (1 server found)
;; global options: printcmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 47690
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2
;; QUESTION SECTION:
;sirhumphreys.com. IN A
;; ANSWER SECTION:
sirhumphreys.com. 9431 IN A 207.210.226.183
;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
sirhumphreys.com. 81431 IN NS ns1.rwhservers.com.
sirhumphreys.com. 81431 IN NS ns.rwhservers.com.
;; ADDITIONAL SECTION:
ns.rwhservers.com. 9745 IN A 207.210.226.183
ns1.rwhservers.com. 9745 IN A 207.210.226.184
;; Query time: 61 msec
Vote:;; SERVER: 203.109.252.43#53(203.109.252.43)
;; WHEN: Sat Sep 30 19:11:58 2006
;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 128
September 30th, 2006 at 7:31 pm
KiwiSheila, you just have a different idea of fun, which hearkens back to my memory of playground bullying, except it’s not even that courageous, since it’s not personally presented.
I can talk trash with the best of them, but I just don’t see the point when I can’t get any biffo out of it.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 8:04 pm
Poor old Chris is not even net savvy enough to realise that he invoked Godwins law before he even got to the meat of his article, I simply stopped reading.
Besides hes just annoyed that Right Wing Bloggers are able to easily reach all of those people that it took years for him to build up a media reputation to get too.
Well too bad Chris maybe you should realise that times are changing and instead of complaining that the right is quicker to the mark get off of your behind and develop a stronger left wing blogosphere.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 8:40 pm
“The bar rooms of it´s most ignorant working class dupes.” I´ve just been in Poland for the last 10 days and am now in Berlin where I went to the Ceckpoint Charlie mueseum yesterday. In Poznan I stayed for a night in a communist era family apartment. The most feral student flat I ever saw was commodius in comparison. The doors all had glass panes to make it harder to keep secrets. The communists in every country were required to shoot thousands of capitalisms “most ignorant working class dupes.” Thousands more risked their lives to cross the Berlin Wall to freedom. In fact East German Border Guards were the sinlge most likely group to get out of East Germany, they had ample opportunity of course and knew all the weak points.
A small portion of right wing bloggers may make objectionable comments, but the vast majority are sensible and usually win the debate, even as it takes place on left wing blogs. I agree with several earlier comments that Trotter appears to be trying to vilify the people he can´t beat in debate: the term for which is “argumentum ad hominum”.
Furhtermore, who would want tolive in Trotter´s democracy: corruption okay if the right party wins and only people who pass his tests are allowed to take part in political debate?
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 9:37 pm
Dear Chris Trotter,
In the spirit of free and open speech, I say to you….
“Get Stuffed!”
Cordially
George
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 9:45 pm
Nicely said Oliver.
For those of you who can get past iHugs filtering system, here is my take on Chris Trotter’s piece:
The pernicious Chris Trotter
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 9:48 pm
Sorry, previous link went blank – try this: The pernicious Chris Trotter
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 10:02 pm
Sorry, previous link went blank – try this: The pernicious Chris Trotter
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 10:28 pm
Dim – Are you seriously saying that Sonic and PJ are just trying to get the truth through some thick right wing skulls or have I misinterpreted?
I believe PJ got banned for a couple of months for calling Don Brash a ‘syphilitic old man’.
Sonic seems to delight in revving anyone that will bite. Hardly upstanding citizens of the left.Or maybe they are.
Really all you people that have complained about comments here should just not visit – then the rest of us,that maybe don’t take things quite as ‘seriously’ as you, don’t have to listen to your whines and you will feel happier too.
Win/Win
I enjoy coming here – sometimes learning a thing or two, sometimes having a laugh. I like it because even someone like me who normally wouldn’t discuss/comment/abuse with my circle of friends,on subjects posted here, can have a say. Its the essence of the interwebsthingy and if you wish to live in a vacuum maybe you should just turn your puter off and stare at the wall for a while.
As for Mr Trotter – A Specials song comes to mind – To much pressure this pressures got to stop. Get over yourself Chris.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 10:30 pm
I see Chris making the same basic errors that other first time blog visitors make:
– failing to make a distinction between bloggers and commenters
– taking a few snippets from perhaps a few thousand comments, and ascribing the views to everyone present
– taking some of the people on this site seriously – both left and right
I totally agree that every one of the comments Chris mentions can be found on this site somewhere. As can all sorts of weird crap on the left wing sites, and in fact weird crap everywhere on the internet. The skill in using the internet is filtering that stuff out, and finding the useful information.
Like Anita, I have found the quality of comments on Kiwiblog going downhill, I ascribe that equally to the recent arrival of philipjohn and sonic (neither of whom IMO listen to any argument), and some of the ranters on the right (redbaiter, A.J. and others) who both seem to take pleasure in feeding the trolls, and in some cases have views that are offensive to me.
I guess the question for DPF is what he wants his blog to be. At the moment it is pretty much a free-for-all, with very light-handed regulation. Some people take liberties with that. Other sites ban people as soon as someone (anyone) takes offense, and become echo chambers. If I were DPF I would probably introduce a stronger code-of-conduct, and maybe enlist some of the more senior (in terms of length of time visiting) folks as moderators to clear out the abusive stuff – kind of like some of the forums work. I wouldn’t filter politely expressed views, even if those views were offsensive to some. Once people understood that their comments wouldn’t stay if they were outside the rules, they perhaps would tone some of the crap down.
There are two main problems with this:
– it gives some people power to delete things they don’t like – introducing some of the filtering that we don’t like in the MSM, and perhaps preventing us from seeing the views that some people have to remind us they exist
– I’m not DPF, so I can’t do it anyway
Anyway, I can understand how Chris comes away with that impression, I am just disappointed that he writes off the whole space because of the actions of a few. As others have noted, there have been some interesting and illuminating posts here, and it is sometimes nice to see that (some) people on the other side are rational too – just with different perspectives and experiences that lead them to different opinions on how goals should best be achieved.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 10:33 pm
Trotter has been part of the mass media that considered itself the “gatekeepers” of all the information to be made available to the public.
I’ve been a little surprised that the media here hasn’t quite realised how pernicious the Internet has been to bypassing the gateway. The mass media might be owned by capitalists from both the right and left, but they all know what sells best and by whom. So mostly the gatekeepers are lefties selling an old suite of stories.
But today, a person can check a dozen favourite blogs that link him to 100 credible media outlets and real experts that allow for a much fuller view and nuance on a story.. and the comparison with what the old gatekeepers have been dishing out is highly unflattering on certain key topics.
Trotter’s diatribe reeks of a man who thought and still does that he would be always able to write patronisingly about the “Information Superhighway” without being bypassed or subsumed by it, but that’s what’s happened… and he dosen’t even have the skills and experience to sort through the chaff for the nuggets that most of us have learned over the last decade.
He hasn’t become hardened to the fact that the abusive blogger with a credible link might just have a point that she can use to back up her statements, and that an equally forthright poster might come back with three better links to bolster or destroy an argument.
Poor Chris, he’s out on a very old limb of the dead tree media where he can hardly “make” a story anymore, but must learn to comment on the multiplicity of facts and opinion out there. And he’ll hate this, but if we want, we’ll fact check his arse off if he tries some of his old media tricks.
JC
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 10:39 pm
Chris Trotter and other “Indians” now realise that the wagons are circling them and when the covers are raised it reveals a veritable possee of sharp shooters with machine guns and they understandably do not like the situation. Get used to it guys – when you had a cotiere of Lawyers and spin doctors you could BS with impunity, the net now means 1000s of brains & information sources can be brought to bear on an issue and information is power.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 10:43 pm
Chris Trotter and other “Indians” now realise that the wagons are circling them and when the covers are raised it reveals a veritable possee of sharp shooters with machine guns and they understandably do not like the situation. Get used to it guys – when you had a cotiere of Lawyers and spin doctors you could BS with impunity, the net now means 1000s of brains & information sources can be brought to bear on an issue and information is power.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 10:58 pm
Wow, wagons that circle the indians! And sharp shooters with machine guns. Now there’s some really mixed up metaphors.
I’m sure Trotter, with his readership of thousands, will be quivering in his boots about more anonymous rantings here.
Actually, I think the MSM is becoming parasitic on blogs, the way that commercial software is on open source. More than once I’ve read points that, so far as I could tell, were first made in the blogosphere, repeated almost verbatim in MSM or by public figures. Not surprised, the sheer breath of what is blogged about surpasses the size of what is printed in MSM by orders of magnitude.
The funniest thing is: We don’t even get paid for this. It’s just good old public-spirited debate.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 11:09 pm
Ben:
Well, as I’ve said here and elsewhere, perhaps the apologist for electoral fraud (and his publishers) might care to put his own house in order before publishing a pretenious Chicken Little routine about how the the lunatic right-wing bloggers have taken over the virtual asylum. Somehow, I don’t think Trotter and Hooter’s increasingly bizarre turns in the SST – and elsewhere in the MSM over the last couple of months – have exactly added much to the quality of political discourse.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 11:18 pm
Thats alright Craig – I won’t take it personal like.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 11:19 pm
Lefties are motivated by a combination of only two or three things. Jealousy, ego and self-loathing.
Lefties only ‘debate’ to demonstrate the value of themselves, to prove to the world what caring, virtuous citizens they are, and how much smarter they believe themselves to be over the other morally inferior populace.
Tiresome.
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 11:31 pm
Hard to say whether he’s suffering from double-standards or psychotic episodes. I say that because I’m sure he would approve of the following comments from a recent interview with Iranian disident Akbar Ganji:
“…..the ruling regime in Iran wants absolute unity, that means a unified way of thinking, of dressing, of speaking. Anything that challenges this unity is helpful to democracy. If it says, speak this way and I speak differently, I challenge it. If it says, dress like this and I dress differently, the same. If it says, you can only believe in this ideology and I believe in another one, that supports democracy. Society should be like dough. The regime wants to knead the people in its own way, they should be like marionettes. So they can play with them. If we oppose them, that’s a step in the democratic direction.”
Q: What role does the technological revolution play?
“The technological revolution prevents totalitarianism from winning. In the Internet age, nobody can keep a message secret, and that makes totalitarianism impossible.”
Vote:September 30th, 2006 at 11:49 pm
“anti-Semitic” eh…
Vote:How come the only blogs I’ve seen with the “I stand with Israel” sticker are right-wing ones? The worst anti-semitic rants I’ve seen have been in lefty blogs and it was the right-wing blogs which uncovered the Reuters and AP photo-doctoring scandal, the AP photographer caught with an Al Queada terrorist etc etc.
And hate speech? Go look at Michelle Malkin’s blog and look at the filth lefties are spewing there, referring to her in the most disgusting terms and publishing fake pics of her.
Trotter needs to get around more. Or have an honesty transplant.
September 30th, 2006 at 11:59 pm
Just a thought but the funny little man is probably lurking – enjoying the hornets nest he has stirred by poking it with his little stick.
With that thought I’ll bid you all good night.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 1:10 am
Dear Mr Trotter thank GOD I have been to the tavern allnight I would love to give you a peice of my right wing mind,but sadly I can’t rememeber what I wanted to say.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 5:45 am
OK – Blair, I will be sure to invoke it. The right wing are complaining about corruption and that morphs into Mulhollands law.
Cretean – When you said RB , I thought Russell Brown and he is normally civil. I realised you meant Redbaiter. I am a National supporter and think the whole tone of this blog could be raised.
Redbaiter – Try taking whatever arguments are made and addressing them as though they are logical, or just invoke Mulhollands law if they are not. Ranting and personal attacks do nothing whatsoever to improve the quality or plausibility of your position or the likelihood that readers of blog comments will read what you say and decide to vote National. Did Ben say anything contoversial. No. Actually he made a very good point. Indeed I am sure he reads your comments because sometimes you do have some very good points albeit often buried on vitriol.
Surely part of the reason you post comments on this blog is to point out how flawed and corrupt this government is and to point out the logic of National policies. Losing it will simply turn off potential National voters who may be reading this blog. And that defeats the purpose of the exercise.
Ben – I agree with you this time, even if your politics are dodgy.
And I do not wish for a moment to pretend that I am of have been whiter than white in my posts and comments. Simply call me a partially reformed whore. We have so many facts to nail this government on that there is no need for the right to stoop to personal attacks or ad hominem argument.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 9:24 am
Well Mr Trotter.
How about this comment;
“Newspaper editors could decide when to publish the ravings of abusive letter-writers and when to consign them to the rubbish-bin.”.
A friend and I did a ‘stealth’ study on this. As we were both avid writers of letters to the editor we sent in letters on exactly the same subject except one of us would take a left stance and the other would take a right stance. Guess which one always got published and which ‘rubbish’ always made it to the bin ?
Socialist propaganda gatekeepers – Your day is done, you can rest now and let the readers decide what is important. You have had complete control long enough, it will be interesting to see if the hopeless corrupt parties you support will even survive at all without your filtering of public opinion.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 9:40 am
Anita: I really miss the old Kiwiblog where there were reasoned arguments, genuine exchanges of ideas, and players from both sides were at least civil to each other.
I’m with her.
DPF, time to stop making excuses for the usual suspects by allowing “robust debate” or “frank views”, or “passionately expressed extremes”.
It’s mostly a shambles, actually.
I prefer 12 reasoned comments as opposed to 120 foam-at-the-mouth ones. The frustrating thing is having to wade through the mind numbing and repetitive knee jerks to find the posts of people that add some value to the process.
It’s your show, but I mourn what used to be.
The sad thing is, as the comments sections are taken over by the lowest common denominator, the ones that added value will move on.
What a victory that would be.
However, the more things change, the more they stay the same (bbs -> fidonet -> nz.* -> forums -> groups/communities -> blogs ……, myspace et al, …?).
To confuse volume and repetition with quality, well, you should know better. You’ve been there before.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 9:48 am
Oh for fuck’s sake Belt you of all people should be aware that trying to single handedly moderate a forum which gets 7,500+ comments a month is no trivial job. I spend far too much time on the blog as it is, and am not going to sacrifice earning income to do it full-time.
Tell you what. I’m happy to grant moderator powers to 2 – 4 individuals with licence for them to clamp down on abusive posts (except my own
. If I get some decent volunteers (and only from those who have no history themselves of such behaviour) then I’ll give it a try.
But I resent being criticised for the behaviour of others, where I have no responsibility for their behaviour. Many blogs do not even do the light moderation that I do.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 10:04 am
Well said DPF
Trotter might be happy to give you a few pointers on how to make your statement then sit back and filter out all the views that don’t match your ‘Labour is good, Labour is great, disagree with me and your in the bin mate’ approach.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 10:28 am
Come on Trotter, you are bound to be reading this, you have started this with you article, you have had a chance to read the ‘unfiltered’ reaction to it. Surely you have something to say. Other than the new ‘Trotter jingle’ I just coined for you.
Labour is good, Labour is great, disagree with me and you’re in the bin mate.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 10:30 am
Good news all round…
This stuff means the left are under pressure.
Chris can cheer himself up by finding some new victim for Hulun to spend my money on.
And the Yeats quote…from the Orwellian left it’s pure gold unintended irony.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 10:47 am
Belt you of all people should be aware that trying to single handedly moderate a forum which gets 7,500+ comments a month is no trivial job
Seems a reasonable point of view until you realise that there are probably 4 or 5 people that need a little help in moderation, not 7500 comments.
You “temporarily uninvited” Chuck Bird. Why not encourage the 4 or 5 remaining culprits to self-moderate or face the same outcome? Asking people to try and stick to about 2 comments per topic would also reign in those who do have the capcity to self-moderate. You could just try and ask?
If time is the problem – then I hope your invitation for moderators succeeds. but I don’t see the next step being moderation – just a request to help out. If that doesn’t work, a few choice suspensions probably would take care of most of the problem.
Didn’t mean to upset you – just perhaps highlight the fact you’ve done a great job, and people come here because they want to be part of what you built. Now they’re saying they want you to help maintain the quality of the experience they come here for. It’s a compliment, not a complaint. It’s a hope for a few small changes.
Trotter is unhinged, but I can’t debate the point that some participants here are blinkered, hateful and every bit as damaging as alleged. Right and Left. (Whatever that means these days
Even Cadmus is being drowned out. If that isn’t the litmus test, I don’t know what is!
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 11:17 am
The calls for moderation are just another symptom of the hollowness of the leftist’s position. They have no argument. They have managed to conceal this fact for decades by obsessively controlling the mainstream media, and their whining on here is merely an expression of their burning desire to do the same to the internet.
Leftists live for control and their obsession is power. An unmoderated blog is anathema to them. They have for years projected the view that opposition to their suffocating ideology of socialism is not legitimate, and they have demonised anybody who ever dared express such views. Anyone who doubts this only needs to read Trotter’s article for a standout example.
Every argument on here aimed at censorship is underpinned by the same bigoted strategy, that of demonising anyone who opposes socialism. The smug pontificating half educated academics professing objectivity and superior powers of analysis are just bigoted protectors of the status quo, pissing their pants because they can no longer control speech and ideas.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 12:05 pm
Sagenz, a lot of the problems that arise on here are the result of misunderstanding. Many who comment have such low standards of education of such a facile and narrow view of politics, that they are unable to comprehend what is being said. For instance, you obviously suffer from the misunderstanding that I write here in support of the National Party. You write here thinking I dislike people who advocate for Labour. Wrong on both counts. I write here because I oppose the political ideology of socialism, and what I dislike is mostly not the person, but the ideas of those who advocate for it. National sadly have almost as many socialists in their ranks as Labour, and do not actually promote any policies that confront socialism. I advocate for change in National. I advocate that if they really are an opposition party, they must begin to promote policies that oppose socialism.
I have been reading Dave Farrar’s blog ever since he first put it up, and that he has managed to build it into the successful venue for political discussion he has is an immense credit to him. He also deserves further credit for sticking with it, for I know the time and effort it takes to run a website. Considering Mr. Farrar has various other interests, he does marvellously well in keeping this site fresh and interesting. (His reports and pictures from his recent US trip were wonderful). That said, I think one of the main reasons his site is so popular is his amazing tolerance. Some of the leftist stuff written here is so vile, and so rude concerning the political party Mr. Farrar has a strong connection to, and he lets it stand, and for that he has my admiration. You judge people by what they do more than what they say, and when Mr. Farrar professes to be a classic liberal, as far as I can see, in the manner he understands that condition, he tries hard to be one.
I think it would be sad if Mr. Farrar succumbed to the whining of leftists who talk down to everybody and get all hurt when they find their ideas can’t withstand the glaring light of unmoderated discussion. The internet cannot be regulated by leftists, and you only have to read their words on here to see how much they yearn for that habitual and obsessive control. My advice to those calling for moderation is to stay away from the internet. Go back to reading and writing to the Herald and the Dominion. Go back to Mark Sainsbury and Paul Holmes and Susan Wood and John Campbell. Go back to TV One and TV Three. DON’T COME HERE IF YOU ARE SO AVERSE TO FREEDOM.
Belt, all politics is a tug of war between left and right. On the left is big government, and on the right is the individual. Any argument you write here is either favouring the former or controlling the other. You might like to pretend its not that simple, or maybe you don’t possess the ability to see it so clearly, but that’s your problem, not mine.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 12:07 pm
RB nails it again.
Chris and his journo’s collective can never accept what they know to be true…that state socialism is a failed system that cannot compete with liberal capitalism in the world market for quality of life.
As people demand to make more decisions about themselves expect Chris to get shriller.
Vote:After all, Chris knows an underemployed bureaucrat who should be making ‘correct’ decisions for you.
October 1st, 2006 at 12:20 pm
Hehe…with the threat of moderation RB suddenly manages a post without an actual vile insult, although he can’t help his usual dribble of twisted condescension and sneering put-downs.
But moderation..merde!!! RB has been a one man sewer of non-stop ranting and aggressive offensiveness, yet the moment someone suggest that his kind of dog shit maybe a little over the top…he’s whining that the evil socialist’s are trying to shut him down. (And btw, the term “dog shit” was first repeatedly introduced to the blog by RB himself. Yet when he gets his own poison served back to him, with a little extra seasoning, he is the first to whine about it.)
As for moderation, by all means. Of course RB will not be happy unless HE is appointed Chief Moderator, will he? Anything less would be a bigoted strategy, that of demonising anyone who opposes socialism.
The truth is that those who scream corruption, bigotry, censorship and filth the loudest(all the usual intellectually lazy and vile names that the desperately clueless resort to instead of ideas)…are very often those most likely to be those actually guilty of such things behind the scenes. Call it the Capil/Foley principle if you wish.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 12:32 pm
Thanks Fred, and don’t forget, the projected staff cutbacks in the mainstream print media could be causing a few like Trotter to have more than their usual interest in dissing the internet. The funny thing is, it has been their determination to cling to the wreck of socialism that has hastened their departure, and inexplicably their thinking processes are so fogged by that ideology, they still can’t discern something that is so glaringly obvious to you and I.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 12:48 pm
Can’t you closet fascists do your nauseating mutual admiration tricks in private, without subjecting the rest of us to your sicko antics?
As for media cutbacks…huh? It is conceivably more plausible that RB himself is actually a media professional who is being paid on the quiet to “poison the well” with his ridiculous Col. Blimp-like antics.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 12:56 pm
How come the only blogs I’ve seen with the “I stand with Israel” sticker are right-wing ones?
Keith, strictly speaking being anti-arab is also anti-semitic.
I think Trotter overestimates the influence of the blog on the greater population. People who read, write and comment on blogs are not the ones who are going to be influenced by them. Generally they are people with strong (in this case political) beliefs who come here to discuss/argue their points of view. And you can’t get punched in the face if you piss someone off.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 1:13 pm
How’s this for a nifty lateral solution to Chris and Cretin’s problems.
Requiring direction from their official betters, as they do, they could do worse than give the Exclusive Brethren a try….
Don’t thank me, all in a day’s work.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 1:18 pm
Cretin nails it;
“Can’t you closet fascists do your nauseating mutual admiration tricks in private, without subjecting the rest of us to your sicko antics?”
If you don’t like what you read in the blogs, stay away. Pretty simple, it’s not like the blog pages get used to wrap the fish-n-chips you eat you know.
MSM = Public forum, can be seen without effort or deliberate intent to view… Blog = “I went looking for it”.
Squeal all you like Cretin, it’s happening, the MSM no longer have a choke hold on public opinion.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 1:28 pm
Quiet Sunday for you guys eh? Nothing better to do than idly “nailing” each other? No wonder this blog needs moderation.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 1:32 pm
Like anything Cretin, people given new freedoms do tend to overindulge. Have patience, it will settle down and people will polarise to sites that match their own person sense of community.
Crazy concept to the single providers of public opinion and approved media releases, but give it time.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 1:54 pm
Redbaiter (not sure how you became RB, I think Russell got that one first), I don’t think the proposition is to moderate the opinions. I think the proposition is to moderate the method of delivery.
A statement like: “Can’t you closet fascists do your nauseating mutual admiration tricks in private, without subjecting the rest of us to your sicko antics?” adds nothing to the debate, and just encourages other people to write even more extreme statements.
Most of us just skip that comment once we read the first line – on the assumption that whatever follows it will be crap as well. The problem is that the feedback never gets back to the commenter – they don’t understand that they are well outside the bounds of reasonable discourse. Then their friends and opponents join in, and before long we have 50 posts insulting each other, and a few posts that have a point to make. The signal to noise ratio is going to pieces.
I am not suggesting banning individuals – I don’t think that is what DPF wants – everybody is entitled to their views. I am suggesting a code of conduct that people are expected to follow. It probably wouldn’t even need explicit moderation – if there was an agreed code of conduct the longer serving commenters could just pull people up on it, pointing to the policy. And then refuse to engage further until the post was restated. My faith in human nature is such that I think that might work. Maybe I am deluding myself.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 2:20 pm
Listen to you all;
You are discussing how to control a free form concept where person X expresses Y opinion and party(s) Z comment on it.
Do you want blogs to become a non interactive dumbed down media, perhaps we could print it on paper and publish it daily. Bugger off the lot of you moaners, read ya bloody paper, write your letters and read the 7 a day that get through the filter happy in the knowledge that there is no noise!
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 2:50 pm
Paul L- I find the biggest problem is the insipid pompous condescending air of the academic left. These people are walled off from reality, and just don’t realise how offensive their views are. Worse, they do not realise how offensive their manner is. Worse again, they don’t realise that they’re talking to people who have had to suffer because of the ascendancy of leftist politics. Suffer in silence. Until now that is. People like myself, who have never taken a dime in government assistance, have never asked the government for anything, yet are robbed blind, and denied the right to provide for their families the way they want, whilst simultaneously being prevented from airing their views, and on the rare occasion that they are able to do so, are written off as extremists or insane by these academics or their friends acting as media gate keepers.
Such people proliferate on this blog, and as I’ve said before considering that they are the root cause of so much that is wrong with this country, and considering their totally unwarranted but very grating habit of talking down to the other more sensible, better educated more commercially experienced and less ideologically isolated contributors, it is amazing they are treated with the restraint they are. As I said, there’s a lot of them here, and they’re easy to identify. One of their most salient characteristics is the delusion that they speak for everyone else, that they’re the leaders of a group that has the market on reason and logic cornered, as manifested by such phrases as “most of us” or “most sensible people” etc etc. This not only shows them to be stupid and narrow, it shows them to be ill mannered. The left have a lot to answer for, and I reckon, considering the ideology they promote and support so vociferously and in such an ill mannered way is such an affront to morality and decency, they get off damn light.
Burt & Fred- well said!
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 3:22 pm
Paul L- I find the biggest problem is the insipid pompous condescending air of the academic left. These people are walled off from reality, and just don’t realise how offensive their views are. Worse, they do not realise how offensive their manner is. Worse again, they don’t realise that they’re talking to people who have had to suffer because of the ascendancy of leftist politics. Suffer in silence. Until now that is. People like myself, who have never taken a dime in government assistance, have never asked the government for anything, yet are robbed blind, and denied the right to provide for their families the way they want, whilst simultaneously being prevented from airing their views, and on the rare occasion that they are able to do so, are written off as extremists or insane by these academics or their friends acting as media gate keepers.
Such leftist academics proliferate on this blog, and as I’ve said before considering that they are the root cause of so much that is wrong with this country, and considering their totally unwarranted but very grating habit of talking down to the other more sensible, better educated more commercially experienced and less ideologically isolated contributors, it is amazing they are treated with the restraint they are. As I said, there’s a lot of them here, and they’re easy to identify. One of their most salient characteristics is the delusion that they speak for everyone else, that they’re the leaders of a group that has the market on reason and logic cornered, as manifested by such phrases as “most of us” or “most sensible people” etc etc. This not only shows them to be stupid and narrow, it shows them to be ill mannered. The left have a lot to answer for, and I reckon, considering the ideology they promote and support so vociferously and in such an ill mannered way is such an affront to morality and decency, they get off damn light.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 4:00 pm
Thanks RB!!.Burt, “do you want blogs to become a non interactive dumbed down media”, don’t they wish.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 4:17 pm
Usually when the Left conducts hysterical and mouth-frothing rants in a desperate bid to discredit the Right, they only end up discrediting themselves.
This article proves to be nothing more than a case in point.
As for Trotter’s assertion that corruption is fine as long as it keeps the opposition out of government; this is exactly the kind of mentality you would expect to find in a ‘Third Reich’.
In fact such an assertion could just as well have rolled off Hitler’s own lips…
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 4:21 pm
PaulL, I think there are signal-noise issues, but the range of channels is fantastic. Millions of stations, even if they’re AM or worse. By not reading MSM I find I get local news approximately 2-3 hours earlier than any other method. MSM is OK for the free visuals, and the weather and sport, but the news itself is not worth the time it takes to hear, or wait for.
I see it like spam in your mailbox not being a reason not to get email. You can detect the posts you want to read about as quickly as you can decide if a message is spam. So even if 99% of your mailbox is spam, your eye just jumps to the hams instantly. The human brain truly is an amazing filter if you train it.
That doesn’t mean antispam systems are worthless. I wouldn’t have written one if I thought that. You might not even want to let spams enter your subconcious. I think that’s a bit precious really, but I cater to my customer’s needs, not my own. Redbaiter’s posts are to me like viagra email. I don’t really want it, but it’s not really a problem either. The damage it does is so limited that it should be allowed just because it gives him pleasure. People can use mental or automatic filters – either one will work. Getting outraged about Redbaiter is like getting outraged about a spam message.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 5:25 pm
I doubt there are many ‘I stand with Israel’ stickers on the National Front or Redwatchnz sites – and they’re almost certainly the ones Trotter is referring to when he mentions anti-semitism.
Presumably the op-ed didn’t mention names because the paper didn’t want to advertise hate sites – suspect this was an editorial decision, not one made by Chris.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 5:41 pm
Has he commented in here ? Talks it up and then is to scared to face scrutiny over his claims, definitely old school MSM.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 6:29 pm
Yeah, Trotts prefers more climate ‘controlled’ environments.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 6:58 pm
A statement like: “Can’t you closet fascists do your nauseating mutual admiration tricks in private, without subjecting the rest of us to your sicko antics?” adds nothing to the debate, and just encourages other people to write even more extreme statements.
Actually that is merely a repeat of a statement Redbaiter himself posted some months ago with a couple of the words changed to suit. All I am doing is reflecting back the same poison that Redbaiter has been so liberally dishing out for months, but you see it differently when it is attacking your values.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 7:34 pm
Reckon Cretin can’t be Trotts, too thick.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 7:42 pm
Oh yes. I deliberately chose a nom that I just KNEW the kiddies couldn’t resist mis-spelling. You do realise that you have repeatedly fallen for the most foolish, puerile self-discrediting blunder that bloggers make. Silly plays on names is just plain dopey, but you righties NEVER, EVER GET IT. Do you?
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 7:59 pm
Cretean could be Trotter.
He has pulled the whole thread down as useless because people are so stupid they can’t match his tricky spelling.
Ohhhh Cretean aren’t we the smart one. Ohhhh tricky wooo.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 8:08 pm
Yes I am Trotter.
But remember…all Creteans tell lies.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 8:12 pm
And Cretean add to the tone of the thread with this little gem, while blasting people for being vile. Must be Trotter, it’s just like him to accuse away while doing exactly what he is hammering on about.
“None of us could give a cockroach’s fart what diseased fantasies pass throught the febrile sack of pus that substituted for a functioning brain in your ugly skull long ago.
Crawl back under the fridge prat-boy, the scum there needs something to feel superior to. Or whine about it as usual. Whatever.”
Note the misspelling of “throught” Loose the extra t oh superior intellect one.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 8:20 pm
Burt is reduced to spelling bee time. And completely fails to GET IT as usual with his inability to follow cause and effect. All I am doing is reflecting back Redbaiter’s own poisonous drivel, with a little extra spice…and YOU come over all sanctimonious about me afflicting “the tone of the thread”.
Loose the faux outrage oh pompous one.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 8:23 pm
Yep Cretean is Trotter, if someone else can do it then it’s OK. That’s the spirit mate, show your colours on your first outing.
Have you got anything original (not vile or partisan) to say ?
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 8:28 pm
So burt I am pleased to see you have changed your mind. Are you NOW telling us that if Redbaiter can spew forth unlimited bile, then it is OK for the rest of us too?
Or does RB have some special dispensation?
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 8:31 pm
Danyl, you said “Many of the denizens of the right wing blogosphere seem to consider you a dangerous left-winger”
I’m curious, “who” of the “many” did you have in mind. I haven’t come across any such sentiment and I thought I covered a reasonable number of blogs. Are you perhaps just hoping to get an idea out there?
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 8:35 pm
Cretean
Mimicry is the most sincere form of flattery. Just say ‘way cool’ to RebBaiter next time, it’s cuts a lot of crap out that we get bored filtering through.
No it’s not OK, a lot of what RB spews forth is garbage. Repeating garbage is double bollocks.
I was showing that just like Labour who have claimed that as other parties overspent it was OK that they did, supported by that loony left apologist Trotter, that you same behaviour would increase the chances that you were he.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 8:39 pm
However Cretean, some of the stuff that RB posts is also astute and 1000% on the money, even if it is a little direct compared to the soft focus of the MSM.
I like the option to evaluate that myself, if you don’t, rather than copy him – just F&^K OFF!.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 8:42 pm
No it’s not OK, a lot of what RB spews forth is garbage. Repeating garbage is double bollocks. Agreed.
As for the overspending thing. So far four out of five party leaders have expressed significant disagreement with Kevin Brady’s preliminary opinion. Maybe they have a point.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 8:48 pm
Four out of five people asked to pay money back, say they don’t think they should have to. What a surprise.
Their views would be more relevant if they were uniterested parties. they are not. The AG is.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 8:54 pm
How embarrassing…
Vote:I shoulda known, Cretin…..you got me good…..it was the size and camouflage re your intellect that had me fooled.
October 1st, 2006 at 9:06 pm
At least it’s certain Trotts is reading this, being the No.1 blog gig in town.
C’mon Chris, don’t be shy.
Vote:We’ll be gentle.
October 1st, 2006 at 9:13 pm
As gentle as the article that heads this post
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 9:22 pm
Count me on the side of enjoying Redbaiters posts and thinking there is merit in the points he makes.
I prefer a bit of bluster compared to the snide comments and well crafted attacks than have a thin veneer of respectability, that withers away with predictable excuses when challenged.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 9:36 pm
ZenT…so you are telling us that blustering bile is OK if it confirms your preconceptions, but NOT OK if it doesn’t it? Either the kind of garbage RB is routinely spewing out is acceptable for everyone, or it is not.
If you decide that it is ok, then you have no ground to whine when the threads deteriorate into a shitflinging contest…. because THIS leftie will serve right on back what you guys dish up.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 9:45 pm
So far all you have dished up is repeated garbage. Come on, original stuff eh!
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 9:50 pm
Repeating someone else’s rants and issuing veiled threats, It’s looking more like Trotter every post.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 10:00 pm
Cretin(come on you like it right) As I said to you on another thread -
You really need to seek professional help.
Zen – I’m wondering if DIM is on something at the moment. I’m fairly sure he says(30/9 – 6.35pm) that PJ and Sonic are just average Joe lefties trying to get the truth across whilst been constantly shot down by ‘several dozen nutty rightwingers scream(ing) at them about Stalin, Heather Simpson, Pol Pot, Lesbian Facism, Neville Chamberlain, the toilets in Hagley Park, the Holocaust and so on.’
Go figure.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 10:34 pm
Cretin(come on you like it right) As I said to you on another thread -You really need to seek professional help.
I’ve said nothing that RB has not said, perhaps with just a little extra spice. But RB has posted literally dozens of his long ranting noxious diatribes….and you have not objected once. You like them…right? Yet it has only taken a handful of parallel garbage posted by me, but with a leftie spin you do not like, and you are wetting the bed about me needing professional help.
Hypocrite.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 10:38 pm
Weeell, you can’t say we haven’t tried to seduce Trotts onto the thread with chocolates and roses.
Guess it’s no surprise the left would rather attempt to dictate opinion into the TV tube than be demolished in a free and open encounter.
No wonder the boy is nervous.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 10:58 pm
So I read the post, and thought, “here’s a great opportunity for some netizens to prove Trotter right. Are we surprised that they did?
I find it quite funny that the same good ol boys who complain about trotter trying to limit their free speech are doing the same to him. He told you what he thought of you: that’s free speech. Enjoy.
DPF
You do a great job keeping this blog up to date, and I can understand why you’re pushing the party line, but this used to be a place to discuss all types of things, a place where people could discuss politics. Now it’s a place to abuse and get abused. It’s really too bad.
I’ll wait for the inevitable posts telling me that it’s too bad, and if I don’t like it, I can piss off with the rest of my pinko commie fag mates.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 11:15 pm
“I find it quite funny that the same good ol boys who complain about trotter trying to limit their free speech are doing the same to him”.
It must lefty madi-gras or at least ‘make it up’ time again….
Does someone think Trotts is trying to limit their free speech?
Err…not here.
Does someone wish to limit Trotts free speech?
Err…not here.
Just trying to get the gormless little prick to argue where he gets chatted up.
Vote:October 1st, 2006 at 11:47 pm
“It must lefty madi-gras or at least ‘make it up’ time again….”
Yeah, it must be, except they do it all the time. Just read the thread and its appalling the number of conscienceless false allegations and misrepresentations made by the left. The trouble many of them have of course (especially the really thick ones) is that they mistake contempt for their ideas as personal abuse. I have said here so often that I consider leftist political ideology to be a curse on civilization, and there’s many a comprehension challenged half educated leftist here who considers that an attack on their person.
When one looks at where most of the leftists come from to get to this blog, its clear why they just don’t get it. Isolated from reality academics or parasitical government employees who’ve never had to turn a profit or meet a payroll in their lives, but want to tell everyone else how to do it at the same time as they rob us blind and legislate us into an unproductive socialist mire. Here’s a message leftists. What you’re confronting here are the voices of the productive sector of society, those people you have denied a voice for so long , at the same time as you have bloc voted again and again and again for higher taxes and thereby forced them to provide you with a standard of living far in excess of what you have earned. I keep saying it. Its a damn wonder and a credit to the right on here that you elitist leftist parasites who demand that the private sector of NZ provide you with a living at the same time as you daily express your arrogant disdain for them on here are treated as decently as you are.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 12:08 am
Cretean, you said “ZenT…so you are telling us that blustering bile is OK if it confirms your preconceptions, but NOT OK if it doesn’t it?”
No, that’s what you just said. I said something different. You have taken the wrong interpretation.
Weizguy – I don’t believe anyone here is telling Chris Trotter he is not allowed to voice an opinion. What we are doing is critiquing his. There is a difference. It was actually Chris, in his article that implied the very things you attempt to label here.
A reasoned discussion begins not just with people being polite, but without the stunningly bad leaps of logic to justify a poorly considered comment, as demonstrated by yourself and Cretean with those two comments. It can lead people to suspect you are both being deliberately argumentative.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 1:25 am
Erratum,…”It must be lefty madi-gras or at least ‘make it up’ time again….”
Blog Watch….on which lefty statist sympatico blog will Trotts baby turn up on.
Perhaps to whine further about those who refuse to live lives approved by his socialist mateys.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 6:06 am
“I hardly know where to begin to describe — let alone explain — the viciousness of the (mostly) young New Zealand males who inhabit this fetid environment. Their hostility towards the Left extends far beyond honest disagreements between fair-minded citizens over how best to organise human society”.
>>
I didn’t know Trotter was branching out of politics and into comedy.
I am the only regular female right wing political based blogger from NZ. And like Christopher we contribute to the same newspaper empire on a frequent basis.
I thought that my blog was FAR more vicious, anti-democratic and hostile toward the left than all the right wing males who blog.
When will this be formally recognised by my peers….damn it? Looks like I will have to up my game.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 8:08 am
Serendipidously, DPF has just noted that he is number 3 on Nick Millers enemies list . . .
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 8:13 am
Moron. The big government Israel hating National Front are in fact more closely politically aligned to the left.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 9:35 am
This is all just bitch slapping, if Cretean is Trotter then he has precious little to say, other than he too can be a big boy and use filthy language.
The best and brightest from the left have chosen to be nothing more than Parrots.
RB, take a bow – the loudest mouthpiece of the left has chosen your words to show how smart the left really are.
Cactus, it’s not about you – but don’t give up the blog – you do a good job.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 10:08 am
The trouble many of them have of course (especially the really thick ones) is that they mistake contempt for their ideas as personal abuse
Actually redbaiter, your constant personal abuse is what people “mistake” for personal abuse.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 11:58 am
Thanks Danyl, after Sir Humphrey’s being held up as a “typical example” of a rabid extreme right wing blog, and yet (I’m happy to say) “DPF friendly”, I can see the same people that use the word “many” have a slight problem with exaggeration.
Perhaps the problem is that “many” left commentators are incapable of holding a nuanced opinion. It’s all or nothing. We could discuss Gay Marriage and before the words are out “homophobia”. We could discuss “one law for all” and the screams of racism begin.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 12:05 pm
Cactus Kate, whilst I do not doubt you are FAR more vicious, anti-democratic and hostile toward the left than all the right wing males who blog, I respectfully submit that you have some female company – Lucyna of Sir Humphrey’s brings left wing commentators out like lemmings over a cliff.
Perhaps she covers a slightly different sphere than your domain, but the right wing is vast.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 12:23 pm
Zentiger,
I don’t think I’ve ever called you racist or homophobic. Feel free to prove me wrong and link to any threads in which I’ve done so.
When I referred to Sir Humphreys as a typical rabid right wing blog I provided a link to a post by Lucyna suggesting that Muslims are ‘like the villans in The Matrix’. Readers can make their own decisions about whether or not the material you guys publish can be considered rabid and right-wing.
Here’s a link to a google search of kiwiblog for the words ‘civil unions’ – you’ll find plenty (one might even say ‘many’) right-wing bloggers taking DPF to task for his lack of ideological purity.
Again, I leave it for the reader to decide if any of the comments about ‘fags’ being ‘an existential threat’ to civilization are homopobic or not.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 12:29 pm
In Lucynas case, wolves to a tethered goat seems a more appropriate metaphor.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 12:48 pm
Danyl, I don’t think you’ve ever called me racist or homophobic either. What I was responding to was the effect of short, generalised statements on readers versus backing it up with a fact.
In the minds of many, there is little difference between an overtly fascist/white supremacy web site and Sir Humphrey’s – which is a collection of 10 or so authors with a variety of opinions.
Your example on civil unions is a good one – this is not so much a right/left wing issue but a liberal/conservative issue and DPF is liberal. Thus it is understandable that the conservatives would have a different opinion than a liberal.
But the way you made it sound was that DPF might be reviled on such a blog as Sir Humphrey’s. Far from it. His opinion is respected, even if debated strongly on liberal issues by some, and on other topics, there is agreement. Your comments give a different impression. So I spoke up.
And as for your throw away line – “I leave it for the reader to decide if any of the comments about ‘fags’ being ‘an existential threat’ to civilization are homophobic or not. ”
You’ve again proven your willingness to paint every-thing in black and white, that inability to hold a nuanced opinion by the way you phrased the discussion.
We could instead have a discussion on what impact it would have on our social fabric if all women’s gyms were made unisex, so as not to discriminate against men wanting to belong to a gym that may be more handy to visit. It might not be such a big deal once people get used to the idea it is wrong to discriminate on the basis of sex who can and cannot hold a women’s gym membership. We may have to redefine a women’s gym membership as meaning any man or women who join etc….(ok, not a perfect example off the top of my head, but one that is easier to discuss without the emotion you generate summing an argument into a frame of reference you can easily argue, whilst disregarding some fair points made by others.
I’m not saying this is right or wrong, or even if this represents my views (I explain my actual views on one of those threads) – just that it would be more helpful in debating these ideas if you could stop screaming “homophobia”. At the least, the conservatives with strong views might learn something from a reasoned discourse and modify their view.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 1:05 pm
Zentiger,
There’s a gay marriage thread over at Sir Humphreys in which I do, indeed, refer to a Sir Humphreys author as ‘homophobic’. However, this was in response to (again) Lucynas statement that gay people are also child molesters and her posting of a link to a discredited study carried out by a US based anti-gay hate group to ‘prove’ her claim.
I’m more than happy to reasonably debate gay marriage without branding people homophobic – I do so in some of the kiwiblog threads I linked to previously – but if people like Lucyna are going to make disgusting and ignorant claims like those in the above thread then they are, very rightly, going to be sneered at as the bigots that they are.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 1:11 pm
Looking back at my previous post it does sound like that’s what I’m saying, doesn’t it? My apologies for the confused post. It wasn’t.
But I still say that DPF will be first against the wall once Redbaiter, Lucyna and AJ Cheswass are in charge.
While I’m here I’d also like to point out the rich irony in ‘RedBaiter’ calling Nick Millers site – ‘RedWatchNZ’ – left-wing.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 1:29 pm
As a friend of mine said in an email he sent me about this;
When the Algerians in France rioted earlier
this year most people said ‘well what do you expect when you have been led to believe in a better life, but end up being marginalised by the society there?’ So it is with white, middle class males in New Zealand. We have been promised a better life under Labour and are expected to pay for it through our taxes. Yet we are marginalised in society by being denied the same access to – in particular – health (no community services card because we earn ‘too much’), education (school’s decile is too high), and family assistance (not enough kids or earn ‘too much’ again for WFF) that other
demographics enjoy.
And where is our representation in parliament? We have ministers for Maori, Pacific Island, Women’s, Youth and Ethnic affairs, and we have Courts and Corrections for the scumbags. What do we have for middle-class white males? Oh yes, Peter Dunne, Minister for Revenue. Excellent.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 1:35 pm
If you think you’re missing out on anything or being marginalised in any way by going to a high-decile school I can only point and laugh.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 1:38 pm
err…
You are a solid lefty, me as the messenger has just been shot. Well done, got anything meaningful to say ?
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 2:15 pm
Yes. If you’re claiming to feel under-represented or mistreated as a middle-class white male then I’d really have to question what you base that on. Middle-class white males make up the majority of our MPs, judges, policemen… or indeed any other class of people who may have notable influence or authority over any aspect of your life. Where’s your representation in parliament? You’re kidding, right?
Not only that, as a middle-class white male you’re basically right up the league tables in every respect in terms of privilege and quality of life in this country. So, pardon me while I fish out the world’s smallest violin, etc etc. If you want your taxes back then go work for the civil service, I hear they tend to give pretty highly-paid jobs to middle-class white men.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 2:30 pm
I’m astonished at your responses to his piece!
And relieved actually, I assumed he was talking about me
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 2:44 pm
“But I still say that DPF will be first against the wall once Redbaiter, Lucyna and AJ Chesswass are in charge.”
I doubt that even you would be against the wall if those three were in charge. I think you are a good example of seeing major problems where only minor ones exist, and yet ignoring the bigger picture.
It would certainly seem offensive to suggest any one step father is a potential child abuser, but unfortunately, the statistics against stepfathers versus natural fathers in child abuse cases are seriously different. That’s just the way it is, but it certainly doesn’t mean an individual stepfather is guilty. Statistically, Maori are over-represented in prisons, but it doesn’t mean any one Maori is a criminal. We get all that, and statistics do have to be wielded carefully. And unfortunately, there are some studies around homosexuality that provide some interesting statistics, but that of course doesn’t mean all homosexuals are child molesters.
That’s your proof on why Lucyna or AJ would shoot DPF? Given Lucyna’s writings on the suffering of the Poles under the totalitarian designs of Germany and Russia, and her understanding of what that does to people, echoed through the personal experiences of her family, you exclude an important dimension to her thoughts.
And AJ Chesswass argues strongly about what he believes in, but his purpose has always been to convince, not to demand.
And Redbaiter speaks of the hypocrisy of the left not allowing free thinking and free speech. Calling the arguments forwarded by people as idiotic doesn’t automatically lead to a firing squad. When he suggests firing NZ’s left wing academics, you might discover he’s suggesting they get a real job for a while, to see if their perspective changes.
Nope, I don’t even see you against the wall Danyl. The only thing they’d shoot down is your arguments. And the metaphorical bullets are flying thick and fast in both directions. And that’s not a bad thing.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 2:45 pm
err..
So I still don’t see a connection between your response and the initial comment. The implication that there are more middle-class white males paying tax and receiving no special allowances is only reinforced by your assertion that middle-class white people form a significant part of the highly paid jobs. OK great, white males are big tax payers – you agree with that – that is more or less stated in the original comment is it not?
Perhaps you could address the issue, representation… Not population or proportion.
If I were to state that because my boss is a Maori that Maori people are better represented in my workplace, I would probably be in court. But you claim the same of middle-class white men and see no problem with it.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 3:04 pm
OK, so what exactly do you mean by “representation”? When talking about parliamentary or governmental representation that tends to suggest somebody of your particular group, nominated to represent you in parliament. You send somebody to parliament to act as your spokesperson for your interests.
Are you suggesting that there’s a shortage, proportionally speaking, of middle-class white guys in parliament to provide the middle-class white viewpoint?
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 3:06 pm
“And AJ Chesswass argues strongly about what he believes in, but his purpose has always been to convince, not to demand.”
I would have to disagree with this, in the sense that from his writings, I think that if AJ had the opportunity, he would like to his “The One Morality” in law.
“And Redbaiter speaks of the hypocrisy of the left not allowing free thinking and free speech. Calling the arguments forwarded by people as idiotic doesn’t automatically lead to a firing squad. When he suggests firing NZ’s left wing academics, you might discover he’s suggesting they get a real job for a while, to see if their perspective changes.”
I find that Redbaiter is the ultimate example of hypocrisy. I have yet to read an intelligent argument from him. His answer to any reasoned attempt at discussion is to be abusive and yell you communist, you. To me, if you call an argument idiotic you need to back that statement up, and he has never done that.
Also I find interesting the proposal that being a teacher and researcher isn’t a “real” job. To you what quantifies a “real” job? Many in the education field spend long hard hours at their work. That is like saying being at home looking after the house isn’t “real” work. Why should some-ones employment nullify their point of view? If one was to dismiss, say a mechanic’s, point of view as un-educated you would claim, quite rightly, that to be elitist. Is this reverse elitism?
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 3:07 pm
“And AJ Chesswass argues strongly about what he believes in, but his purpose has always been to convince, not to demand.”
I would have to disagree with this, in the sense that from his writings, I think that if AJ had the opportunity, he would like make his “The One Morality” the law and all others illegal.
“And Redbaiter speaks of the hypocrisy of the left not allowing free thinking and free speech. Calling the arguments forwarded by people as idiotic doesn’t automatically lead to a firing squad. When he suggests firing NZ’s left wing academics, you might discover he’s suggesting they get a real job for a while, to see if their perspective changes.”
I find that Redbaiter is the ultimate example of hypocrisy. I have yet to read an intelligent argument from him. His answer to any reasoned attempt at discussion is to be abusive and yell you communist, you. To me, if you call an argument idiotic you need to back that statement up, and he has never done that.
Also I find interesting the proposal that being a teacher and researcher isn’t a “real” job. To you what quantifies a “real” job? Many in the education field spend long hard hours at their work. That is like saying being at home looking after the house isn’t “real” work. Why should some-ones employment nullify their point of view? If one was to dismiss, say a mechanic’s, point of view as un-educated you would claim, quite rightly, that to be elitist. Is this reverse elitism?
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 3:12 pm
Trotts apparently has trouble with quotes that don’t travel well.
Trotts says:
“In their eyes, the Labour Government is not merely mistaken, it is evil”.
Charles Krauthammer says re US politics:
Vote:“……you have to understand this fundamental law: Conservatives think liberals are stupid. Liberals think conservatives are evil”.
October 2nd, 2006 at 3:22 pm
‘First against the wall when the revolution comes’ is a joke, Zen. (From ‘The Young Ones’, I think). I don’t seriously believe the three stooges are going to seize power and start murdering people.
Sheesh.
In Lucynas case the statistics were from a study carried out by an individual who advocates the imprisonment and ‘extermination’ of homosexuals.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 3:33 pm
Stupid HTML tags:
‘First against the wall when the revolution comes’ is a joke, Zen. (From ‘The Young Ones’, I think). I don’t seriously believe the three stooges are going to seize power and start murdering people.
Sheesh.
In Lucynas case the statistics were from a study carried out by an individual who advocates the imprisonment and ‘extermination’ of homosexuals.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 3:48 pm
err… said;
”You send somebody to parliament to act as your spokesperson for your interests.” Incorrect.
A political party stands a person in your electorate that they think will be popular with the electorate. That person then generally toes the party line and their own views are pretty much ignored against the bigger picture of the party. Such is politics. The mix is the mix in Parliament and I think you are on very slippery ground if you suggest that each MP only looks out for their own race/age/gender/income bracket.
Are you suggesting that young people earning under $70K are completely un-represented by Govt, that is about as logical an assumption as your assumption that x number of middle-class white men in Parliament = top of league representation.
I’m still waiting for my extra tax paid to fix Health and Education, something promised in 1999. I think you have picked the wrong part of the message to tear apart, I agree it was the easy part to attack, but you are still ignoring the point. Representation is not the same as proportion.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 4:22 pm
Danyl, you really need to read the rebuttal by Dr Cameron, who says he NEVER advocated the “extermination of homosexuals”. But then how interested in the truth are you really?
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 4:41 pm
Of course Trotter does not believe in Free Speech. He gets paid for it. I don’t think he likes the idea of competition from Bloogers because their opinions are not only free but also more honest than his contrived, to suit an audience, commentaries.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 5:11 pm
I know some people joke when they say “first against the wall”.
I didn’t get that impression from your comments Danyl, given the invective surrounding it. Part of the problem with the dry medium of blogging perhaps?
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 5:32 pm
‘Unless we get medically lucky, in three or four years, one of the options discussed will be the extermination of homosexuals.’
Dr Paul Cameron
Vote:Speech to the Conservative Action Committee, 1985
October 2nd, 2006 at 5:40 pm
Do you have a link to the speech, Danyl?
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 7:04 pm
zen tiger..said..
“..And Redbaiter speaks of the hypocrisy of the left not allowing free thinking and free speech…”
excuse me…!
is this the same zen tiger (sir humphry) who bans people who go “um..err..isn’t everyone getting a little over-excited (in a dianaish sort of way) over the (ironic surely..?) death of steve irwin…?..”
you ban for that..!
then..how the fuck can you and your lot bang on about forums for free-speech…?..with any hope of being treated as anything more than a bad/sad joke..?
(btw…show me the left wing blogs that ban with the entusiasim of you lot and your nutjob bitch murray..?..
(,
trotter is not the left wing blog world…
and in this case he is blowing it out his arse..imho..)
and..hypocrisy..thy name is zen tiger/humphry..
(colour me gobsmacked..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
btw..i have as much enthusiasim for the censorship/moderating proposals of both trotter and those here who would selectively moderate/censor-out any dissenting/challenging/questioning views..
(c.f. sir humphry/silent running..)
it’s called free speech folks…
and unfortunately..that includes warts like redbaiter..
(but i’d rather his invective any day than the sanctimonious cant spewing from the likes of zen-tiger(?)…eh..?..)
feckin’ hell..!
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 7:27 pm
Lucyna,
I don’t believe the full speech is posted online. I was quoting from the article on Cameron at the Southern Poverty Law Centre (linked above). I’m sure if you ask nicely they’ll send you a copy of the speech.
You can find plenty more info on Cameron at the Psychology Department at the University of California website.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 8:38 pm
I think it is very unfair of Dim to lump Lucyna inwith AJ and RB. RB at various times disapproves of and attacks everyone. And there is no doubt AJ considers us all sinners.
But I don’t think Lucnya has ever attacked me, and nor is she likely to. Sure she is more morally conservative than me, but so are most people. I have no doubt I would get on fine with Lucayna in real life.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 8:55 pm
I didn’t get that impression from your comments Danyl, given the invective surrounding it.
I think it is very unfair of Dim to lump Lucyna inwith AJ and RB.
It was a joke, people. Anyone who thinks I seriously proposed that Lucyna, RedBaiter and AJ were plotting to overthrow the government and murder DPF might be interested in helping me move some money out of Nigeria.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 10:06 pm
Hi Phil. How the heck are ya? Long time no see. Good to see you are still commenting here.
Still confused about free speech and being rude on private property though. There is a difference. Please, say all you like about me on your blog (sticking to facts would be appreciated) – that’s the free speech part. But if you are particularly rude on some-one else’s blog, then do not be surprised if you are banned. That’s the respecting other’s property part.
It’s a very simple concept.
By the way, I didn’t ban you or even vote to ban you, so you can cancel the PI and any assorted assassins (hey, it’s a joke. It’s the rage at the moment). I was away and you moved faster and more enthusiastically than normal to go right over the top and piss off the moderator of the day…
We even deleted your comments, apparently they were so bad, so I didn’t even get to read them. Chances are, it hasn’t done me any harm.
Good luck on DPF’s blog. You write some good stuff – you just manage to piss a fair amount of people off whilst doing it.
I do too, obviously, but I’m just not in your league. I’m still working on “sanctimonious pendant” (nearly there, true). Next I’ll move towards the ever popular “attack – withdraw – attack”.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 10:40 pm
zen..perhaps you could grade my sin…the questioning of the group hysterics of the irwinites…on that amorphous/indeterminate ‘rudeness on others blogs’ criterea you run on..
and yes of course the ‘offending’ words were deleted…
can’t have others deciding/seeing just how facile and lightweight and hyper-sensitive you (humphrys) are eh..?
(you’d just look ‘silly’..wouldn’t you..?..)
and um..isn’t banning..then deleting dissenting words/views the antithesis of ‘free speech’..?..(just asking..eh..?..)
btw..have the irwinites dismantled the little shrines they built in their lounge-rooms/bedrooms yet..?
and are they feeling just the slightest bit ‘silly’ now..?
looking back at their group bathing in bathos/pathos..and virtually every other ‘os on offer..?
and you pontificate about ‘rudeness’…yet your noxious bitch murray (of late eclipsed by redbaiter..eh..?)is given free rein on your blog to pour irrational/demented/insulting invective on anyone..
as long as they aren’t rightwingers..eh..?
as i said..hypocrisy..thy name is zen/humphry..
and humphry..(and all who sail on her)..by their actions..disqualify themselves from any speaking rights around the subject of free speech..
any that is..as noted..not viewed as the sad joke it is…
eh..?
and get this..!
you bleat about the gate-keeping/censoring/voice-stifling policies of the m.s.m.
and yet by your actions..are worse than those you purport to critique/improve on..
bah..!..humbug..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 10:43 pm
I have to admit I get pretty frustrated with David’s liberal attitude towards women, and “family values”, and his unwillingness to actually engage in the debates and defend his position. But as Zen Tiger alluded to, I try to debate philosophically, not politically. In saying that, though, I do tend towards political religious fundamentalism. But then I love debate and free speech, and for that reason I don’t think I’d have Mr Farrar lined up by my firing squad – as long he wasn’t shagging someone’s daughter on the sly that is!!
I want to know who the right wingers are that Trotter has in mind. Totally unfair for him to tar us all with his big fat bigoted brush without being specific. I guess if he had he would have opened up himself for defamation as his allegations were so baseless. It saddens me to think that Lefties eat up Trotter’s crap.
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 10:47 pm
NOTE by “David’s *liberal* attitude towards women” I actually meant *chauvinistic* attitude – i.e. that he spends more time talking about women as sex objects than honouring them as socio-political human beings…
Vote:October 2nd, 2006 at 11:12 pm
ooh aj…i think you are taking his penchant for ‘girls in uniform’..and (hopefully) caressing military hardware..
a little to much to heart..eh..?
i think (from his scrawlings here) he ‘likes’ women…(and women like that eh..?..)
(and not just biblically-enforced barefoot and pregnant..eh a.j..?..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 3rd, 2006 at 2:05 am
Good grief, Trotter really has lost the plot. You can always smell the decay of the left in their third term. Helen has lost the plot and so to have her mates.
Can’t wait for the “dirty”!
Will it be frottage-gate or cottage-gate?
Vote:October 3rd, 2006 at 5:25 am
AJ – I suspect most of the girls I “shag” are someone’s daughter, so you may need your gun after all.
And if it is a crime to find some women sexually desirable, well I plead guilty – along with 90% of men.
However anyone suggesting that I see women exclusively as “sex objects” is out of their mind. I’ve got huge regard for a wide range of female friends, collegaues, MPs etc.
Vote:October 3rd, 2006 at 7:37 am
I think what AJ is commenting on is your choice of self focussed pleasure as your way of life ie David Farrar’s personal happiness is all that matters, as opposed to AJ’s way of life where he prefers to be settled happily with one woman and raising a family, and devoting a large part of his life to bringing happiness not only to himself, but also to his wife and family.
Vote:October 3rd, 2006 at 7:45 am
“as opposed to AJ’s way of life where he prefers to be settled happily with one woman and raising a family, and devoting a large part of his life to bringing happiness not only to himself, but also to his wife and family.”
In theory.
Vote:October 3rd, 2006 at 7:51 am
True, but a a theory is better than no theory, or you’re just a lemming.
Vote:October 3rd, 2006 at 8:28 am
dpf said..(thus enforcing ajs’ argument…)
“..I suspect most of the girls I “shag” are someone’s daughter…”
how utterly ‘shagaholic of you darling..!
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 3rd, 2006 at 11:18 am
My pleasure is not self-focused. Whan undertaking pleasure I am very careful to make sure all participants are pleasured.
And I devote a large portion of my life in bringing happiness to others – through charities, voluntary groups and even this blog.
Vote:October 3rd, 2006 at 11:23 am
And we loves ya for it DPF.
Vote:October 3rd, 2006 at 2:53 pm
“as opposed to AJ’s way of life where he prefers to be settled happily with one woman and raising a family, and devoting a large part of his life to bringing happiness not only to himself, but also to his wife and family.”
Actually the AJ I know prefers to be settled unhappily with noone, and devotes a large part of his life to trying to take away other people’s happiness. That’s the practice, theory be damned.
Fortunately he can’t succeed except in his own unhappiness.
Vote:October 3rd, 2006 at 9:49 pm
Phil, you are doing great. You’ve successfully explained why Free Speech is necessary and what the ingredients are, and how to do it, and what should not happen to curb it, and just why deleting free speech would be a BAD thing, and I even get the hypocrisy angle – nicely done.
With you there. Well argued.
Have a cup of tea.
The bit I’m stuck on is where you think you can walk into some-ones front room, shit on the carpet and tell them not to clean it up.
Go check our blog. You’ve got hundreds of comments sprinkled all over the place, nuggets of wisdom.
The few comments of yours you don’t see – well, that’s the shit we cleaned up.
You do flush your toilet occasionally do you?
Vote:October 3rd, 2006 at 10:45 pm
zen…did you have ‘difficult’ toilet-training as a child..?
or is that just your manifestation of the (apparent) rightwing fixation on faecal matter..?
(c.f. the insults of murray/redbaiter et al..)
so..moving on from your fascination with faecal allegories……
your definition of my ‘shitting on the carpet’ is questioning the group hysterias of the irwinites..?
need i say more..?
q.e.d….?…eh..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
Vote:October 4th, 2006 at 4:47 am
pdq says: “You can always smell the decay of the left in their third term.” Mate, the left hasn’t had a third term since the Second World War, so I don’t think you can say anything much about what they “always” do in their third term. As it is, who on earth would have believed any government, left or right, would be so corrupt in their third term. Now they are trying to skew the electoral funding laws to their own advantage. Clark is a very dangerous figure indeed.
Vote:January 9th, 2007 at 2:29 am
I’ve more or less been doing nothing worth mentioning, but eh. My life’s been really bland today. I don’t care. I’ve just been letting everything happen without me these days. That’s how it is.
Vote:February 9th, 2007 at 1:58 pm
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Vote:February 15th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
I just don’t have anything to say. Not that it matters. Eh. I’ve just been staying at home doing nothing, but I don’t care. That’s how it is.
Vote:February 27th, 2007 at 9:38 am
I haven’t been up to anything these days. So it goes. I can’t be bothered with anything these days.
Vote:March 2nd, 2007 at 3:58 am
I just don’t have anything to say right now. I haven’t been up to anything recently, but it’s not important. I’ve just been sitting around waiting for something to happen, but shrug.
Vote:March 14th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
I haven’t been up to anything today. I don’t care. I’ve just been staying at home not getting anything done. Basically not much happening right now. Maybe tomorrow. I guess it doesn’t bother me.
Vote:March 15th, 2007 at 3:23 am
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Vote:April 1st, 2007 at 5:05 am
I haven’t been up to much lately. I’ve basically been doing nothing , but it’s not important. I can’t be bothered with anything recently. I’ve just been letting everything happen without me lately.
Vote:April 2nd, 2007 at 6:54 pm
I can’t be bothered with anything these days, but shrug. I just don’t have anything to say recently. I haven’t gotten much done recently. Nothing seems worth thinking about.
Vote:April 4th, 2007 at 9:35 am
I just don’t have anything to say right now. I haven’t been up to anything recently, but it’s not important. I’ve just been sitting around waiting for something to happen, but shrug.
Vote:April 5th, 2007 at 7:33 pm
I just don’t have anything to say , but shrug. So it goes. Not much on my mind recently. I can’t be bothered with anything recently.
Vote:April 7th, 2007 at 6:15 am
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Vote:April 10th, 2007 at 5:04 am
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Vote:April 10th, 2007 at 8:33 pm
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Vote:April 11th, 2007 at 5:32 am
I haven’t been up to anything today. I can’t be bothered with anything recently. Nothing seems worth thinking about. I haven’t gotten anything done recently, but oh well. Not much noteworthy going on worth mentioning.
Vote:April 11th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
I haven’t been up to anything recently, but so it goes. Such is life. What can I say? Pretty much not much exciting going on to speak of. I haven’t gotten much done lately, but I don’t care.
Vote:April 11th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
I haven’t been up to much lately. I’ve basically been doing nothing , but it’s not important. I can’t be bothered with anything recently. I’ve just been letting everything happen without me lately.
Vote:April 12th, 2007 at 12:25 am
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Vote:April 12th, 2007 at 12:58 am
I’ve more or less been doing nothing worth mentioning, but eh. My life’s been really bland today. I don’t care. I’ve just been letting everything happen without me these days. That’s how it is.
Vote:April 12th, 2007 at 2:44 am
I just don’t have anything to say , but shrug. So it goes. Not much on my mind recently. I can’t be bothered with anything recently.
Vote:April 12th, 2007 at 6:13 am
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Vote:April 12th, 2007 at 11:29 am
I’ve just been staying at home not getting anything done. I guess it doesn’t bother me. Shrug. I haven’t been up to anything. I haven’t gotten much done today.
Vote:April 12th, 2007 at 7:25 pm
Not much on my mind right now, but it’s not important. I’ve just been letting everything happen without me. I just don’t have anything to say right now.
Vote:April 12th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
I just don’t have anything to say , but shrug. So it goes. Not much on my mind recently. I can’t be bothered with anything recently.
Vote:April 13th, 2007 at 4:20 am
I haven’t been up to anything these days. So it goes. I can’t be bothered with anything these days.
Vote:April 13th, 2007 at 6:55 am
Basically nothing seems worth thinking about. I haven’t been up to much these days. I just don’t have much to say right now. I can’t be bothered with anything , but whatever.
Vote:April 13th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
I feel like an empty room, but eh. Nothing seems worth doing. I haven’t gotten much done today.
Vote:April 13th, 2007 at 8:44 pm
I just don’t have much to say recently. Such is life. I’ve basically been doing nothing. Basically nothing seems worth bothering with. Oh well.
Vote:April 14th, 2007 at 6:06 am
I can’t be bothered with anything these days, but such is life. I don’t care. So it goes. More or less nothing seems worth thinking about. I’ve just been hanging out waiting for something to happen, but that’s how it is.
Vote:April 14th, 2007 at 3:33 pm
retty much nothing seems worth thinking about. My life’s been completely dull , not that it matters. I’ve just been staying at home waiting for something to happen.
Vote:April 14th, 2007 at 8:43 pm
I haven’t been up to much these days. Today was a loss. Nothing seems important. I’ve just been letting everything happen without me these days.
Vote:April 15th, 2007 at 10:23 am
Not much on my mind these days, but what can I say? It’s not important. I just don’t have much to say lately. I’ve just been letting everything pass me by recently, but eh.
Vote:April 15th, 2007 at 11:56 am
Not much on my mind these days, but what can I say? It’s not important. I just don’t have much to say lately. I’ve just been letting everything pass me by recently, but eh.
Vote:April 15th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
My mind is like a bunch of nothing, but I guess it doesn’t bother me. I haven’t been up to anything recently. I’ve pretty much been doing nothing to speak of.
Vote:April 16th, 2007 at 4:32 am
I’ve just been staying at home waiting for something to happen, but I don’t care. Basically nothing seems worth thinking about. I can’t be bothered with anything recently.
Vote:April 16th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
I haven’t been up to much today. I’ve just been letting everything happen without me. Basically nothing seems worth bothering with. I’ve just been hanging out doing nothing. I just don’t have anything to say right now. More or less nothing happening.
Vote:April 16th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
I haven’t been up to much today. I’ve just been letting everything happen without me. Basically nothing seems worth bothering with. I’ve just been hanging out doing nothing. I just don’t have anything to say right now. More or less nothing happening.
Vote:April 16th, 2007 at 10:53 pm
I’ve just been staying at home not getting anything done. I’ve basically been doing nothing worth mentioning. My life’s been pretty unremarkable these days. Eh.
Vote:April 17th, 2007 at 12:02 am
I feel like an empty room, but eh. Nothing seems worth doing. I haven’t gotten much done today.
Vote:April 17th, 2007 at 5:13 am
I feel like a complete blank, but I don’t care. Pfft. I’ve pretty much been doing nothing worth mentioning.
Vote:April 17th, 2007 at 8:52 am
I just don’t have anything to say , but shrug. So it goes. Not much on my mind recently. I can’t be bothered with anything recently.
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Vote:April 18th, 2007 at 2:20 am
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Vote: