General Debate 25 April 2024

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NeverMindTheBollocks

The family of one of five New Zealanders executed during WW1 rejects the 2000 Govt apology as inadequate. Instead, they want the Waitangi Tribunal to do something.

More Maori exceptionalism.

http://www.1news.co.nz/2024/04/24/relatives-of-executed-wwi-maori-soldier-fight-for-apology/
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April 25, 2024 8:01am
- herb1
  
  The Government sent him off to war not the Crown. New Zealand had the highest rate of casualties per capita of any Allied Army.
  Sad case of this young soldier but not unique
  
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  April 25, 2024 10:00am
  - herb1
    
    48,000 casualties at a time we had a population of around 900,000. Unfortunately execution was a side effect of genuine worries that men would figure out that climbing out of a trench and marching towards machine guns was not a good idea . Brave men in those days and no consideration given to mental health. In my own short military career the first time I was involved in a Brigade night live fire excercise with Artillery and tracer going over the top . It was frightening even knowing that no one was firing at me and many many people had been involved in safety planning to ensure nothing landed anywhere near us. Gave me a new respect for those who lived in a trench for weeks at a time never knowing if they were about to lose their heads or limbs or mercifully there lives.
    
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    April 25, 2024 1:04pm
  - Paulus
    
    Did he not perhaps Volunteer ?
    
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    April 25, 2024 2:10pm
  - Jack5
    
    Spencer was one of five New Zealand soldiers executed by the Army in World War 1.
    
    One of the others was John Braithwaite, a journalist and son of a bookseller who became Mayor of Dunedin in 1905.
    
    Braithwaite, an alcoholic with a court record in NZ, got into a disturbance at a military prison in France. He claimed he was intervening to calm it down.
    
    Three Aussies sentenced along with Braithwaite to death had their sentences commuted.
    
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Zealand_soldiers_executed_during_World_War_I
    
    Braithwaite’s case:
    
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Braithwaite_(soldier)
    
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    April 25, 2024 3:28pm
    - Mike
      
      Spencer was a volunteer.
      
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      April 25, 2024 4:17pm
- slightlyrighty
  
  Exceptionalism??
  
  It may seem that way to some, but his death, and the manner of it, reflects in Maori Culture in a way that it may not in other cultures.
  
  There is a line between respecting Maori culture and claims of Maori Exceptionalism.
  
  I don’t agree that the line has been crossed in this instance.
  
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  April 25, 2024 10:07am
  - imalwaysright
    
    “…his death, and the manner of it, reflects in Maori Culture in a way that it may not in other cultures.”
    
    There seems to be a disconnect between the importance given this persons death and the importance given to infants who are tortured over months and years and then murdered, right here in New Zealand.
    There are war crimes, and then there are crimes against humanity and God himself .
    
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    April 25, 2024 12:40pm
    - slightlyrighty
      
      Let’s not go down that path with this debate.
      
      The two subjects are completely seperate, although FWIW, I believe how some Maori treat their children is an affront to their ancestors.
      
      It has no relevance however, to the situation regarding the execution of a service over 100 years ago.
      
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      April 25, 2024 2:17pm
      - imalwaysright
        
        You don’t have to go down any path.
        The two subjects aren’t separate, except for one being the infliction of prolonged vicious torture leading to murder. They both exist under what you term the “maori culture”
        The “maori culture” don’t seem to have much interest in justice for their tortured and murdered children, they seem unusually quiet when there isn’t the possibility of a payday.
        So, feel free to carry on your own path but spare a thought for the babies and infants being given a beating today and tomorrow …
        
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        April 25, 2024 3:46pm
  - NeverMindTheBollocks
    
    I think you’ve missed my point, which was that if the NZ Govt apology was not good enough for Spencer then it was not good enough for the other four NZ soldiers who were likewise executed.
    
    I don’t have a problem with the family seeking a deeper apology (though with the culprits long dead, any further apology would appear to be pointless); it’s the fact that they leaned on their Maori heritage in a way that the families of the other four can not.
    
    Which is the exceptionalism I referred to.
    
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    April 25, 2024 6:16pm
  - julesnzuk
    
    Slightlyrighty – you have completely missed the point. All New Zealand citizens are the same before the law – and the same applies in the very sad case of these soldiers. If the Crown ruling isn’t good enough for one then it’s not good enough for any of them. Whatever “culture” they may identify with is irrelevant and no one should be able to lean on their ethnic heritage to claim special treatment.
    
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    April 26, 2024 4:32am
Yvette

Chris Hipkins says Government’s ‘wheels are falling off already‘ after Melissa Lee and Penny Simmonds demoted
He said Melissa Lee’s “invisibility” during a crisis in the New Zealand media has been “baffling”, but it was hard to say what’s been going on with her because the government “haven’t been saying anything publicly about the onslaught that the New Zealand media has been facing”.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/04/chris-hipkins-says-government-s-wheels-are-falling-off-already-after-melissa-lee-and-penny-simmonds-demoted.html

Willie Jackson defends journalism fund, state-funded media independence
Willie Jackson, who became broadcasting minister in the Labour government two years after the fund was set up, defended the fund against Peters’ characterisation of “bribery”.
“It was introduced during Covid because it was a disastrous time in terms of media and we were pressured by good people out there to say, ‘hey you support financial institutions so how about supporting local media that’s struggling’.”
It was aimed at supporting New Zealand media to keep producing stories, he said and was “not just for RNZ and for TVNZ”.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/503407/willie-jackson-defends-journalism-fund-state-funded-media-independence#

The journalism fund seems to have drowned out any claim or comment, even any perception it seems, of “the onslaught that the New Zealand media has been facing”, before the National Coalition took office. It also contributed bigly to the mistrust any audience now has in media.

Chris Hipkins – who really allowed “the wheels to fall off” the media?
Jacinda, Chris and Grant
And wouldn’t it be Willie Jackson who alerted no one really to the rot – the onslaught New Zealand media now faces – but instead pushes the 1980s Treaty (clause 2 in the NZ ON Air Conditions)

So, Chris Hipkins, just another non-delivery to a sector, who of all people should have seen it coming.
They are the ones to analyse these situations and inform us
They didn’t
And now some of them won’t
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April 25, 2024 8:01am
- Swifty
  
  I fear Melissa Lee completely lost the initiative on this issue.
  
  She should have been quick out of the blocks making the case that there’s no way she was going to take money from the pockets of NZ families to support multi-national media companies nor will she throw even more of our money at the state broadcasters.
  
  Instead she appears to have dithered and allowed Slick Willie to both paint her into a corner and make her out to be ineffectual.
  
  Jackson now looks like the cavalry riding to the rescue. Lee should have been making the case strongly that that is not the government’s role and quite rightly. And that media troubles are their own damn fault. But, no.
  
  It’s most disappointing.
  
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  April 25, 2024 10:42am
  - rouppe
    
    If there was completely state funded TV, it would be indistinguishable from Russia’s RT, and North Korea’s Central Television.
    
    And who trusts a word that comes out of those broadcasters
    
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    April 25, 2024 11:59am
    - jkt
      
      Sort of the opposite …..?
      
      By all counts the direction would have been no different from the current editorial direction. The board has lost touch with reality, just like the Human Rights Commission and probably most other government appointed Commissions. The literati does what the literati does best.
      
      Time to review the composition of boards, these boards should reflect society and limiting the appointees to literati is beyond stupid.
      
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      April 25, 2024 1:47pm
    - Ra Henare
      
      Roupee, guess you have never looked at content on RT. IMHO better than BBC and ABC!
      And dare I say it out loud …..TVNZ.
      
      At least they dont try and BS you like BBC who maintain they are independent and unbiased.
      
      ALL news outlets have bias. Just needs some critical thinking and comparing news sites.
      
      I regularly look at
      Haaeretz(Israeli)
      RT
      South China Morning Post
      NZ Herald
      Al Jazerah
      Syrian International News
      Times of India
      CNN
      FOXNews
      
      Then I apply my BS filters to try and understand what is reality.
      
      I dont believe any media from IDF/Israel, US Defence/Whitehouse, UK Intelligence etc etc
      
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      April 25, 2024 3:58pm
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    Lee did say there will be no public hand outs, snd media also said that is not the answer
    
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    April 25, 2024 12:23pm
    - jkt
      
      The minister has lost the trust of the sector!
      
      The sector hounded a sympathetic minister out of the job, they will come to regret their tactic. If Willie Jackson supports something, then rest assured, it is a rubbish idea.
      
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      April 25, 2024 1:52pm
- Paulus
  
  Am not sure why the little fella thinks that it is the taxpayers to pay for their media incompetence.
  Newshub is a Private Company, so its owners could not see that due to its incompetent presenters that advertisers got out and the listeners were sick of the interpretations and innuendo put forward by the vicious lady presenters daily.
  Surely Newshub owners could have sold it but who would but such rubbish and frontline people.
  Sorry for the backroom staff though, as it was not their fault.
  The so called media became so viciously left wing that they are responsible for their onw demise and there will be more to follow.
  As a real Taxpayer I do not want to support such bad mannered crap.
  We saw in this morning with Luxon being or trying to be eviscerated by a smart arse when he was asked about Anzac Day – it was disgraceful but par for the course still – will they never learn.
  
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  April 25, 2024 11:17am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  What a joke Hipkins suggesting the wheels are falling off. What a total farcical joke.
  
  This is leadership, we were told by many on here he is no leader but only a manager, which is weird, because a manger is a leader. Let’s just remember how dead set useless Labour ministers were, these two ministers have been hijacked by a failing ministry, and are far better then predecessors, Lee I think ended with the Curran couldn’t speak syndrome, but I thought Simmonds actually had the answer to the vulgar lefts questions and was able to point lies in questions
  
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  April 25, 2024 12:22pm
  - Damocles11
    
    A manager may or may not be a leader. It is a fallacy to state that a managers are leaders. Ducking for cover, looking to appease, throwing underlings under the bus…..these are not traits of a leader.
    
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    April 25, 2024 12:31pm
    - Positan
      
      Well put and accurately stated, Damocles. Managers “manage” – most often preserving the status quo.
      Leaders aspire to inspirational styles of management – eyes on the far horizon, endlessly seeking possibilities – not just on what’ll develop by the beginning of next week.
      By my measure Luxon is a manager, but not a leader. Despite his self-touting, unnecessary and ineffective remarks like “under my leadership”, since his entrance to parliament he hasn’t once shown flair or the special sort of instinctive individuality that emanates from leadership. Look how, as newly-appointed Opposition Leader, he sucked up to Ardern initially, and also reflect on how scared he was to “confront” or address the protesters at parliament – even ordering “his” MPs not to talk to or address them.
      As I’ve said many times, the man lacks political nous – and therefore lacks the necessary substance to provide leadership.
      
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      April 25, 2024 1:03pm
      - BeaB
        
        What tosh
        
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        April 25, 2024 3:21pm
  - Paulus
    
    I always was taught that Managers can be trained, but Leaders are born!
    
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    April 25, 2024 2:13pm
Anthony Melchett

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/high-court-finds-minister-cannot-be-summoned-to-waitangi-tribunal-summons/R3R6VD2YBVCDDPENNSM2TBCH2U/

Great. The tribunal should not have any authority over this.

Given that the crux of the whole matter is the uplift and protection of abused Maori children, how about Maori start by not abusing their children instead of complaining about them being sent to whitey to be looked after?

Pretty simple.

Some racist politician: “…trying to create yet another stolen generation of Māori babies”

Well if you feed them, care for them and don’t bash them, then the state won’t have to. They only take the abused ones remember…
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April 25, 2024 8:04am
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  They had no right to start with ministers anyway , hope this happens as these lot take government to court on everything
  
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  April 25, 2024 12:26pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Just watching the ANZAC Stories on TV1. It is very hard for these guys to open up, very painful mentally. Good on them.
I had three Uncles and one Aunt who would never talk to me about War. One was in Egypt, one in France I think, the other did 5 tours including Vietnam twice. He was a cook. After Vietnam the cook Uncle went back to Tokyo to bring a bride how. Yes I had a Japanese Aunty Meniko. We became close but she would never tell me her story. She was in Hiroshima and saw it happen right before her eyes. Lost all of her family. Would never tell me, too painful.
So today is a day to remember those who came home, those who have now passed on, and not to forget those who never came home. Lest we forget.
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April 25, 2024 8:41am
- Benedict Yu
  
  If I stop in a small town in New Zealand for food or petrol, I often keep my eye out for the local war memorial. If I have time, I stop and take a look.
  
  Often you will see a little community with a population of maybe 200 to 300 and they lost 6, 8 or sometimes more men in WW1. Then there were the wounded who returned with life changing injuries.
  
  Then just to finish things off the influenza epidemic hit in 1918. IIRC about 9,000 died in just a few weeks.
  ☹️
  
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  April 25, 2024 8:56am
  - Rich Prick
    
    I had a great uncle who was a “guest” of the Japanese at Changi. He came home with not just physical injuries. War is a terrible thing, which is why I find it strange that today’s “any cause will do” crowd unwittingly cheer it on.
    
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    April 25, 2024 9:06am
    - kevn
      
      RP…. It is driven by money. Check out this (not) fine fellow from back then. Plenty more like him right now plying their wares.
      https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-mysterious-mr-zedzed-the-wickedest-man-in-the-world-97435790/
      
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      April 25, 2024 9:21am
    - I remember when
      
      War is a terrible thing, but how to prevent war will always be a difficult decision.
      Living in New Zealand, on the edge of the world, makes it easy to dismiss aggression.
      
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      April 25, 2024 9:29am
      - Paulus
        
        We appear to have our own aggression in many forms such as Maori interpretation of what they want and expect, child murders and abuse, and Gangs to name a few.
        Has got hugely worse in the last 10 years or so
        
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        April 25, 2024 11:21am
    - kowtow
      
      Have you read King Rat , by James Clavell or seen the film .
      
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      April 25, 2024 9:34am
      - Rich Prick
        
        Thanks for that reference. I haven’t read it, but will look for it. Much appreciated.
        
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        April 25, 2024 9:54am
      - Colville
        
        Clavell wrote it with first hand experience as a fellow Changi survivor.
        
        Clavell did not talk about his wartime experiences with anyone, even his wife, for 15 years after the war. For a time he carried a can of sardines in his pocket at all times and fought an urge to forage for food in rubbish bins. He also experienced bad dreams and a nervous stomach kept him awake at night
        
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        April 25, 2024 9:57am
      - NothingLeft
        
        Shogun series remake just released was really excellent. Very high production quality.
        
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        April 25, 2024 10:24am
      - the deity formerly known as nigel6888
        
        Yes, well worth a read, and far too close to the bone about human nature.
        
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        April 25, 2024 12:40pm
      - backster
        
        My favourite author all the few books he has written are great.
        
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        April 25, 2024 3:47pm
    - Sol Invictus
      
      My father was at Changi and on the Burma railroad, and my maternal grandfather died at Galipolli. How fortunate were most of my generation and those younger not to have to go war. Respect to all those who served.
      
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      April 25, 2024 7:29pm
  - fightingtemeraire
    
    In the UK there are only a handful of towns or villages that did NOT lose a man in WW 1.
    
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    April 25, 2024 9:07am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      With 16000 killed and a population of 1 million, I’d say the same would apply in New Zealand.
      
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      April 25, 2024 9:55am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    That 1918 flu epidemic really was something.
    When I was young, stupid, and naughty, I was caught DIC. As a result I lost my license, was fined, and did 3 months of Saturday Periodic Detention. One of the jobs was cleaning up the graves behind a Catholic Church just as you come in to Devonport.
    The dated were very interesting. So many died from the flu. All ages, even new born babies a few months old.
    
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    April 25, 2024 9:08am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      What was particulary frightening about the influenza pandemic was that the highest mortality rates were in males in the 15 to 45 age group. I won’t bother setting out why that was the case. You can look it up if interested.
      
      So many families with young children lost the family breadwinner.
      
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      April 25, 2024 9:22am
      - cmm
        
        “So many families with young children lost the family breadwinner.”
        
        Quite often mothers died too – leaving a demographic wave of orphans.
        
        If you look at old demographics charts (you know those bar charty things) you can see the Spanish Flu wave rippling through the next 40 years.
        
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        April 25, 2024 11:04am
      - Tom Hunter
        
        Almost certainly an example of evolution at work if it’s correct that the Spanish Flu started in the Western trenches of WWII.
        
        The virus that survived and thrived the best was the one that could infect the dominant human population in its area of origin, which were males in the 15 to 45 age group.
        
        Incidentally, the MOH Flu Pandemic Plan gives thanks to a Canterbury (?) historian who literally wrote the book on the NZ experiences of the Spanish Flu, including data that modern medical people didn’t have because they’re not historians. I saw it in a bookshop in Akaroa just last year. Should have bought it.
        
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        April 25, 2024 11:48am
      - Don Beckett
        
        My maternal grandfather came back from WW I at the end of 1917 and Married my grandmother. She became pregnant with my mother, & contracted the Spanish ‘flu. When my mum was born, she was covered in black blotches and they thought she was going to die. However, my mum & grandmother both got over it. As I recall, my mother never caught the ‘flu. She had colds etc, but not the ‘flu. Lucky mum. She died at 91 in 2010.
        
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        April 25, 2024 11:58am
      - CJames
        
        Tom
        They now believe first wave for the Spanish Flu was in the mid-West of the US early 2018.
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2720273/
        Initially it was relatively benign but mutated to something more virulent – the exception to the rule and the example the Covidarians use to try to scare into more lockdowns.
        
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        April 25, 2024 12:07pm
      - Tom Hunter
        
        @CJames
        
        Darn! Now I recall reading that. Even so, IIRC the story was that it broke out and then died away there – but may have then emerged on the Western Front courtesy of US soldiers from the Mid-West?
        
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        April 25, 2024 1:03pm
      - kowtow
        
        Tom Hunter
        
        I’ve read it started as a bird flu transmission in the US to a farm worker who then went into a US army camp.
        
        From there it crossed the Atlantic in troop ships to France .
        
        The Allied censors kept it quiet re France , Britain and the US .
        
        It was reported in Spain while it was happening in the rest of Europe but censored, thus Spanish Flu .
        
        Should have been called the American Flu !
        
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        April 25, 2024 2:20pm
      - Mike
        
        Tom Hunter should prefer the term ‘Kansas Lung Rot’ for the Spanish Flu.
        
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        April 25, 2024 4:20pm
  - CJames
    
    Go up the Whangamomona Road from Stratford and look at the war memorial there on the roadside. There are more names on it than probably live in the whole valley now. A sobering reminder of just how it must have devastated communities.
    
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    April 25, 2024 9:19am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Conveniently for Kiwibloggers, DPF has a whole post for Anzac Day here – https://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2024/04/remembering_the_war_dead.html
  
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  April 25, 2024 9:04am
  - Nukuleka
    
    Conveniently for Kiwibloggers, mikenmildagain, DPF also has a General Debate post in which Kiwibloggers are free to comment about whatsoever they wish, including Anzac Day matters.
    
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    April 25, 2024 9:17am
- MCōs
  
  My father was overseas for the entirety of WWII
  He was captured by the Germans in April 1941 and spent the rest of war a prisoner in Austria
  If we asked him about what happened he’d tell us, but he certainly didn’t bore anyone with war stories & for us it was just part of his life as it seemed to be for all the kids’ fathers.
  One of my nieces sat down with him one day with a tape recorder and talked about the whole experience. Would have been very interesting except when they were finished it transpired the the machine had malfunctioned and the tape was blank! Dad wasn’t up for a rerun
  
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  April 25, 2024 12:42pm
- hmmokrightitis
  
  Was lucky enough to spend a month in Japan last year, exploring the cities, hiking and climbing. Amazing.
  
  Half way through one 7 day hike, met a truly unique couple. He was American. Father flew in Doolittles squadron, helped prep the Hiroshima mission. She was the daughter of a man killed in that mission, born in Hiroshima.
  
  They met at a protest in Hiroshima itself. Been together 20 years, found peace. Fascinating talking to them both.
  
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  April 25, 2024 1:13pm
House

We do remember them.
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April 25, 2024 8:42am
greenfinger

The muppets on the Waitangi Tribunal told in no uncertain terms by the Court to go back into its box! Name and shame these 20 muppets. O how the power went to their heads!
Dr Robyn Anderson
Ron Crosby
Derek Fox
Professor Susy Frankel
Dr Paul Hamer
Professor Rawinia Higgins
Dr Ruakere Hond
Prue Kapua
Basil Morrison CNZM JP
Kim Ngarimu
Dr Hana O’Regan
Dr Grant Phillipson
Kevin Prime
Professor Tom Roa
Tania Simpson ONZM
Professor Linda Tuhiwai Smith CNZM
Dr Monty Soutar ONZM
Professor Pou Temara
Herewini Te Koha
Professor David Williams
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April 25, 2024 8:43am
- Flossie
  
  Does it seem to be overly representative of Maori just going by the names, or is that the intention?
  
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  April 25, 2024 10:19am
  - Damocles11
    
    Luxon and Potaka appear to have downticked you.
    
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    April 25, 2024 11:28am
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Probably you
      
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      April 25, 2024 12:29pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    It really is about how you feel and the culture you choose to identify with.
    
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    April 25, 2024 2:13pm
  - julesnzuk
    
    I’m sure the ones with European names “feel” Maori and also believe their “Maoriness” cancels out their European heritage.
    
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    April 26, 2024 4:41am
- Hugh Jarse
  
  One of these has also been bestowed with the “Order of the Taniwha” by the King of all the Māoris. No I didn’t know there was such a thing either. Only developed in 2014 apparently.
  
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  April 25, 2024 11:03am
cas

A couple of quotes for you all.
The last words of Dan Davin’s novel For the Rest of Our lives (based on 2 NZ Division) are “How long will the war last?” she asked suddenly. “For the rest of our lives”, he said.

Germaine Greer in Daddy We Hardly Knew You: The men who came home carried with them rage, grief and guilt they were not allowed to show. The official mood was rejoicing…They put what they could not deal with behind them. They had not come home to burden their families with the unbearable, so they bore it in silence.

Lest we forget. Thank you for your sacrifices family.
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April 25, 2024 8:57am
Maggy Wassilieff

My brothers and I are in our 70s. We are the first generation of our family who have not been called to fight in a war.

I hope our children and grandchildren can look back in their 70s and claim the 2nd and 3rd generation spots.
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April 25, 2024 9:09am
- kowtow
  
  Thing is that modern politicians have learned from The Falklands War that “small”conflicts ,fought on the cheap as it were might gain you huge political traction.
  That’s one lesson the execrable Tony Blair and his cabal took from it and sent other people’s children into foreign ventures for his personal political benefit .
  Rumsfeld in Afganistan and Iraq II was another.
  
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  April 25, 2024 9:30am
  - imalwaysright
    
    Kow,
    
    Correct .
    And even the skirmishes give governments the justification for eroding our human rights in the name of “national security”
    
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    April 25, 2024 12:58pm
- Flossie
  
  Amen to that Maggy. I have grandchildren now in the age group that would have been called up, and I watch what’s happening all over the world and worry for them. Pray it’s never going to be necessary.
  
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  April 25, 2024 9:45am
- NothingLeft
  
  Praise be for nuclear weapons. Saved me and my generation from war.
  
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  April 25, 2024 10:25am
- cmm
  
  As brutal as war is, perhaps that’s not a good thing.
  
  I grew up with a huge respect for the fact that others had had a hard life and made huge sacrifices.
  
  Our neighbour, a farmer, had a colostomy bag due to his WW2 injuries. He wore a jacket over it for modesty even through the hot, humid days we had in Eastern South Africa. It was common to see men on crutches with pinned up legs, eye patches etc.
  
  Later, when at school, one of the guys a year or two ahead of me was killed in a landmine incident in Angola. He had been a prefect and was well known and liked. At university I knew a few people on false legs or other bits and pieces missing.
  
  Now we have generations of kids who think they are having it rough if the internet speed isn’t delivering tiktok fast enough.
  
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  April 25, 2024 11:15am
  - Maggy Wassilieff
    
    There’s probably always been spoilt brats.
    
    You don’t need to experience war to realise that life can be short and brutal at times.
    
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    April 25, 2024 11:34am
- rockape
  
  Sadly you may be wrong. Wars start out of weakness and I see the apparent weakness of the West as the match that may start the conflagration. I am the last of my family to serve for 25 years but it doesn’t mean my son and grandson will be spared a war and that’s what scares me.
  
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  April 25, 2024 11:57am
Damocles11

Hard to know what to make of the Melissa Lee sacking, as I was very happy with how she was performing. She was frustrating the media & the MSM were not getting taxpayer funded bailouts. That’s a big win from my point of view. ‘She didn’t perform well in interviews’ seems to be the main whinge. Well unless you tell the haranguing MSM what they want to hear then there is really no pleasing them. I guess the assignment for Goldsmith will be to say nothing and do it with charm and wit. Either that or he has been wheeled in to throw the MSM a ‘taxpayer money’ bone, which I would be furious about. I don’t like Luxon slapping down his coalition partners and sacking ministers so early in this governments term. I’d prefer he not train his guns on people on the right, as it only allows the Lefties to talk about ‘turmoil’ and ‘chaos’. If you sack someone then you’ve admitted they are incompetent, you are giving the opposition a win. It’s an own goal. Same with rebuking your coalition partners. I don’t like to see Luxon siding with the MSM, which is what I believe he is doing whenever he tries to appease them.
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April 25, 2024 9:20am
- Benedict Yu
  
  I initially thought that it was a good thing. Strong leadership etc. After thinking about it I am having doubts. It is worth listening to Barry Soper on ZB who made the point that politics is not like business.
  
  Listening to the PM yesterday, he gave the impression that he would be doing these rearrangements on a regular basis. How long before one or more Ministers push back?
  
  It will be difficult for Melissa Lee to recover from this which is a pity.
  
  On the substantive issues… I don’t think that the Government knows what it wants to do in response to the media “crisis”. Melissa kept telling us that the Act needed to be “modernised”. Probably, but that means nothing to 99 percent of folks listening.
  
  On the disability portfolio, I think that the Minister was unlucky. From what little I know, she inherited a mess. The chief executive should have resigned, not the minister. They could have got a Steven Joyce type to consult a Ministerial inquiry into the agency.
  
  Of course I’m not in politics. Maybe it is a brilliant move by the PM and I know nothing. 🤡
  
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  April 25, 2024 10:06am
  - NothingLeft
    
    Almost every political career ends in failure/on a low note. It’s the nature of the beast.
    
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    April 25, 2024 10:27am
  - thirteenstars
    
    Not so much brilliant but necessary. The alternative to Lee’s sacking would have been Luxon going at it with Seymour and Peters in support of his minister, that is assuming Luxon agreed the media needed special treatment amounting to a bailout. He chose wisely.
    
    What it reveals generally is the reality of a three-way coalition where the two minor partners exert significant clout within cabinet.
    
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    April 25, 2024 10:33am
    - Damocles11
      
      Isn’t this all speculation? Presumably Lee had been directed by her boss to find ways to help the MSM….she could hardly have been acting as some sort of ‘rogue minister’, doing things that her boss the PM disapproves of. Yet if ‘helping the MSM’ is anathema to Seymour and Peters then how is Goldsmith going to do any better? Anybody taking on this role is clearly on a hiding to nothing. My preference would have been to keep Lee there, because we now have Chippy declaring the wheels are falling off the government & Willie Jackson proposing a summit meeting involving all media stakeholders. Labour are delighted with this whole situation.
      
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      April 25, 2024 10:43am
      - Paulus
        
        Melissa staying there would have pissed off, even more, the so called media and the Labour Party.
        She was targeted by the Opposition Media Party because she would not fund them.
        Neither I hope will this Coalition Government, as if that happens, I am out.
        
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        April 25, 2024 11:26am
      - thirteenstars
        
        “My preference would have been to keep Lee there…”
        
        Which goes directly to my point, which I hardly regard as speculation given the known facts and statements.
        
        How could Lee be kept on having had two proposals rejected by cabinet? Third time lucky? In her public statements it’s clear she sees some kind of extra funding being necessary, which is anathema to Peters and Seymour.
        
        So what was Luxon to do? You suggest he direct her to present a proposal that satisfied ACT/NZF but that undercuts the whole idea of ministerial responsibility and competency. Luxon would be micromanaging a senior minister and that’s untenable considering she’s an MP of long standing and was shadow media minister.
        
        “Presumably Lee had been directed by her boss to find ways to help the MSM…”
        
        I never said she was a “rogue minister”. But if you believe Luxon actually had directed Lee to find ways to fund the media out of its problems then not only is it a rejection of Lee but also a smack in the face for Luxon. It would have required a complete reversal of Lee’s proposals–and therefore Luxon’s–to be acceptable to NZF/ACT. Luxon certainly would not have relished that.
        
        I think he acted correctly. Goldsmith can present something more acceptable and we can move on.
        
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        April 25, 2024 11:38am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    All other ministers appear to be tracking well, he said from day one that anyone struggling would be out, remembering of course both ministers retain ministries, as Luxon said he wants hard nosed cabinet ministers in place of them because the mess that was left by Labour.
    
    Compare the haste of this compared to the previous shsmbles, its leadership, and we were told here he didn’t have leadership
    
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    April 25, 2024 12:36pm
  - imalwaysright
    
    It would have been more understandable if he swapped cabinet ministerial portfolios within the current group.
    
    With Lee leaving Cabinet, it looks like she is not up to scratch and it is therefore Luxons fault for selecting her in the first place.
    
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    April 25, 2024 1:18pm
- Maggy Wassilieff
  
  Yes, it will embolden the Opposition and Media to keep spinning a negative message about individual Ministers whenever they get the chance.
  
  Luxon needs to take control of the narrative/game before each bit of spin leads to the loss of a minister.
  
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  April 25, 2024 10:08am
  - Nookin
    
    There may well be another side of the story when it comes to Luxon’s leadership on the summons issue.
    Chhour is a cabinet minister. Luxon is top dog in cabinet. Is it even remotely conceivable that the solicitor-general sought judicial review of the decision to issue a summons without Luxon’s support and authority? Luxon may not be a song and dance man but he gets things done. How long did he take to plug the leaks and the infighting when he was elected leader? Not very long.
    Lee was being hammered by a hostile media too full of its own importance. Response ? The media now have an experienced minister to deal with —one who will see thru and call crap on its antics.
    Simmonds had the rug pulled out from under her by a hostile department that thought it could spend what ever it like, whenever it liked. Simmonds was not up to the task.
    
    Luxon gave Simmonds and Lee a chance. They will learn from it. In the meantime, in the immortal words of P Gower, those who think that the media’s malaise and lack of credibility is the fault of this government and is a problem for the government to resolve can get stuffed.
    
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    April 25, 2024 10:44am
  - Damocles11
    
    Luxon seems to think his job is to pacify journalists. It isn’t. I worry about who advises him. I think John Key is too much of an influence; I hate the ‘corporate management’ schtick we are being subjected to when there are so many vital issues that need addressing. If Luxon thinks he can smarm his way through rather than addressing the big issues decisively in a way that will satisfy voters on the right then he needs to be given a rude awakening.
    
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    April 25, 2024 10:47am
  - G the giant from Dunedin
    
    The new ministers will be better at pointing out the failure of the previous regime
    
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    April 25, 2024 12:37pm
- Burtland
  
  the Melissa Lee sacking is quite odd …
  
  16 yrs in parliament on the National List – so she knew how government works
  previously worked in journalism – Herald, Listener – worked in TV
  MA (1stHon) in Communication so not so stupid and should know how to communicate
  
  are we really to believe shes a hopeless DEI appointment like Poto was ?
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melissa_Lee
  
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  April 25, 2024 10:14am
  - Mike
    
    Many smart, well-educated politicians fail at ministerial jobs.
    
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    April 25, 2024 10:37am
  - cmm
    
    “16 yrs in parliament on the National List ”
    
    Really? She came across as rather junior.
    
    I think Melissa Lee was pretty good as a shadow minister – keeping Labour ministers in line.
    
    But being good at calling out faults in others does not necessarily mean you will be a good leader yourself.
    
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    April 25, 2024 11:17am
- thirteenstars
  
  Indeed.
  
  Lee was a long-serving MP and the media shadow minister who seemed to have a pretty good grip on the issues.
  
  That she presented cabinet papers twice on the issue of media funding and both were rejected means she was not at all competent to be a minister or that NZF/ACT had a strong dislike for her proposals.
  
  The latter I agree with but in a coalition situation that’s a big problem for a minister because they have essentially lost a vote of confidence within the cabinet. Luxon didn’t have much choice but it’s a pretty bad look.
  
  We know Peters and Jones have a specific antipathy towards anything that smacks of a bailout and Seymour has said even more traditional media funds like NZ On Air might have outlived their usefulness.
  
  Given that Goldsmith will have to tread carefully. Good.
  
  Luxon’s full statement here:
  
  https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/04/melissa-lee-gone-from-cabinet-as-pm-says-media-faces-significant-challenges.html
  
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  April 25, 2024 10:25am
  - Ghost
    
    Another article worth reading
    
    Article
    
    Newsroom understands Lee’s sacking from Cabinet came after another failed attempt at presenting a paper to Cabinet Committee.
    
    On April 8, Lee took a paper to Cabinet Committee – the third paper she had prepared since the February 28 announcement of Newshub’s closure.
    
    Sources told Newsroom that Luxon – who is a member of the committee – believed the proposals in Lee’s paper did not adequately deal with the complexities of the issues facing the media industry.
    
    Lee presented her first paper to Cabinet on March 4 – at Luxon’s request. It gave senior members the lay of the land, following the announcement of Newshub’s closure and the impending job cuts at TVNZ.
    
    But things got rocky for Lee after she started proposing ways to fix these problems.
    
    Newsroom understands Lee got ahead of the Cabinet process when preparing her next Cabinet Committee paper and was ordered to carry out further consultation with coalition partners – specifically NZ First.
    
    After almost a month of working with officials and consulting with coalition partners, Lee tried again. But she came up short.
    
    Her attempt to take a refreshed proposal to Cabinet committee on April 8 would have been a factor in Luxon’s Cabinet reshuffle.
    
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    April 25, 2024 10:32am
    - Damocles11
      
      So if Seymour and Peters want the MSM to be left to whither on the vine, does Luxon think they will be won over to a different view via a great corporate-style presentation? I can’t believe he’d be that naive.
      
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      April 25, 2024 10:50am
    - peterwn
      
      One has to conclude from this that Chris Luxon considers she has not been an effective team member. While it is a politically complex issue she did not seem to grasp what needed to go in the Cabinet Committee paper and the need to bring coalition partners on side. Or she continued to attempt to press firm views she may have had despite the views not finding favour with coalition partners. It could also be that she made some poor choices in the appointment of her key office staff.
      She will need to learn from this and handle her other portfolios well to demonstrate that she is a worthy member of Cabinet. Otherwise she might be on the skids to the back benches.
      Conversely Chris Luxon would have been impressed with Simon Watts’ performance as a Minister outside Cabinet and wanted him in Cabinet.
      So Melissa takes a $28,000 ‘take home’ after tax pay cut while Simon has a similar pay increase and Melissa will probably be relocated in Bowen House or so.
      
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      April 25, 2024 11:30am
    - Jack5
      
      How significant is it that Newsroom seems to be getting inside information on the Coalition’s media discussions?
      
      Newsroom is headed by former news executives of TVNZ and the NZ Herald respectively.
      
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      April 25, 2024 12:30pm
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      You lost me at media
      
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      April 25, 2024 12:39pm
  - kowtow
    
    ‘We know Peters and Jones have a specific antipathy towards anything that smacks of a bailout…..’
    
    Unless it’s going their way or to their benefit .
    
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    April 25, 2024 11:34am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  My opinion is Melissa Lee was planning to get stuck into the Waitangi Tribunal and pin their ears back. Mr Luxon does not want that. He is friendly with Maori and wants to continue his path of “Co-Governance.”
  I thought National campaigned on not having co-governance. Have we been duped?
  
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  April 25, 2024 12:02pm
  - Ghost
    
    Melisa Lee has nothing to do with the Waitangi tribunal. You’re just making shit up.
    
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    April 25, 2024 12:06pm
    - G the giant from Dunedin
      
      Exactly
      
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      April 25, 2024 12:40pm
    - MCōs
      
      Read Luxon’s lips; she’s useless
      
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      April 25, 2024 12:45pm
      - Damocles11
        
        That’s the perception he has created. He wants to suck up to MSM, we will see how that goes for him in the long run.
        
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        April 25, 2024 4:04pm
- NZer In Exile
  
  Not really a “sacking”. More just fine tuning skills/talents with portfolios. Seems fair enough to me.
  
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  April 25, 2024 2:15pm
  - peterwn
    
    Melissa was demoted to Minister outside Cabinet which is almost as bad as being sacked. That is more serious than losing a portfolio. Penny lost a troublesome portfolio but remained inside Cabinet. Presumably considered her performance on her other portfolios was up to par or she would have got the heave-ho from Cabinet too.
    
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    April 25, 2024 2:37pm
    - MCōs
      
      Penny Simmonds has always been a minister outside cabinet
      https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/503156/cabinet-lineup-for-new-government-unveiled-who-gets-what
      
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      April 25, 2024 8:41pm
I remember when

The Bottom of the Heap?
Why Maori Women are Over-Criminalised in New Zealand: Khylee Quince.
Faculty of Law, The University of Auckland.
* “There are no statistics kept in relation to violent offending by Maori females, although of the women in prison in 2004, approximately 60% of those convicted for violent offences identified as Maori.”
* “50% of all Maori women ages over 15 receiving a welfare benefit in 1996.”
* “Maori are three times more likely to be hazardous drinkers than non-Maori women.”
* “Maori women face four times the risk of the average woman of being subject to confrontational offences committed by their partners.”

While these figures may well be true, the lack of identification of who is Maori, means such totals may lack accuracy.
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April 25, 2024 9:54am
- Paul
  
  Māori women are over-represented in New Zealand prisons, a long-standing trend. Māori women aged 20-60 years comprise 15% of the general population, but are 63% of women in prison. In comparison, Māori men comprise 52% of the prison population.
  New Zealand has the highest rate of imprisonment of indigenous women in the world, and the majority of these Women are aged between 16 and 29.
  
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  April 25, 2024 5:24pm
  - julesnzuk
    
    We don’t know how “Maori” they actually are – but they presumably identify more strongly with their Maori heritage than their European heritage. I do wonder how they’d get on if they had more respect for their European heritage?
    
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    April 26, 2024 4:47am
- NeverMindTheBollocks
  
  * “Maori are three times more likely to be hazardous drinkers than non-Maori women.”
  
  Well, whose fault is that, Khylee? Are Maori women held down while alcohol is forced down their throats?
  
  No, didn’t think so.
  
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  April 25, 2024 6:37pm
- artemisia
  
  Did the paper say ‘Why?’ as stated in the title? That would definitely be instructive if changes have been made in the 14 years since it was published. If there have been changes, an update of the summary of numbers should indicate what worked.
  
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  April 26, 2024 6:41am
Chuck Bird

The Climate Change Commission is running sessions across New Zealand, starting next week, on its consultations on the methane reduction targets and related issues. I will be going to one.

In the meantime, I have emailed Jo Hendy CEO of the Commission as below.

I am what is called a climate sceptic. According to the PM that would make me a denier or at least a minimalist.

I am curious if you or other members of the Climate Change Commission have read or even watched videos of climate scientists who do not believe that there is a climate emergency. One notable one is Dr Judith Curry who produced a video titled There’s no emergency” – dissident climatologist Dr Judith Curry on climate change

If you have and disagree with Dr Curry would anyone in the Climate Change Commission be prepared to debate with her or perhaps Dr Steven Koonin author of “Unsettled”?

I will be attending one of the sessions put on by the Climate Change Commission so I hope I can get a reply before then.

Kind regards
Chuck

I received an automatic reply so I doubt if I will get a reply before the meeting.
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April 25, 2024 9:56am
- Steve Otto(North Shore)
  
  Please remind these clowns that wool, lamb, beef, and dairy are primary industries in NZ. If we don’t export, we can’t import. Reducing flock and herd sizes because the animals fart means reducing our exports. 10 year old kids can work this out, why can’t the climate change people see this?
  
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  April 25, 2024 10:20am
  - Benedict Yu
    
    “why can’t the climate change people see this?”
    
    Maybe they can. However it is not the commission that set the “zero” target. It was parliament, with all MPs voting for the target except ACT.
    
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    April 25, 2024 10:33am
    - jkt
      
      It was the politically expedient thing to do.
      There is every chance that the wheel is turning.
      
      Climate theories abound ….. scientific consensus is manufactured.
      
      “Does the climate change?” “Yes.”
      “Does anthropogenic contribute to climate change.” “Yes.”
      
      Is climate change an existential threat to the
      1 planet? Whaaat!
      2 humans? The climate has always threatened society and humans. And humans have coped well enough thank you.
      
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      April 25, 2024 2:05pm
  - kowtow
    
    And the hypocrite media types ,who have no self awareness are today ironically heralding good news , a trade surplus , driven by one of their “intersectional” hate sectors , the farmers !
    
    I say huzzah for the farmers , they grow the food we all need and their surplus goes to people who pay for it which helps make our country free and prosperous . If it weren’t for farmers this country would be very poor indeed .In so many many ways.
    
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    April 25, 2024 11:41am
    - Steve Otto(North Shore)
      
      Yup, if you had breakfast today, thank a farmer and a truckie.
      
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      April 25, 2024 12:04pm
- Benedict Yu
  
  I recognise that we do not see eye to eye on this which is fine. 🙂
  
  It does not matter whether the Climate Change officials think that there is a “climate emergency”. The Commission needs to conduct itself in accordance with the Act. Otherwise they would be breaking the law. The law requires the commission to prepare emissions budgets in accordance with the Act.
  
  FWIW I have never used the term “climate emergency” and I do not believe that New Zealand can meet even the 2030 targets without massive fiscal costs buying overseas credits. That could easily be 20 billion. As I commented last week, the government has already committed $1.4 billion in overseas climate finance in the three years to 2025. That is just the very beginning.
  
  To make things worse, the government has given farmers a free pass to 2030. I agreed with that, but it leaves a problem. If the farmers don’t pay for their emissions, the Crown will need to pay.
  
  This is why I think that it is counter productive to convince the Commission that climate change is fake. Much better to draw the public’s attention to the consequences of current policy settings in ways they can understand. For example how many folk are aware that we are sending $1.4 billion offshore to 🇧🇾 Belarus and 🇰🇭 Cambodia to finance their climate change projects? 1 percent of folk? Probably far fewer than that.
  
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  April 25, 2024 10:20am
  - Chuck Bird
    
    This is why I think that it is counter productive to convince the Commission that climate change is fake.
    
    Where did I say climate change is fake? I said that expert climate scientists say there is not a climate emergency. There is a difference.
    
    Many scientists argue with evidence that methane is a short-lived trace gas and should not be taxed. Do say they are wrong.
    
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    April 25, 2024 10:38am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      I think that it is counter productive to convince the Commission that there is a climate emergency. For reasons I have set out at least three times and to which you never respond.
      
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      April 25, 2024 11:06am
  - Chuck Bird
    
    WTF! Biden Administration to Declare National Climate Emergency
    
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yogGHWVZlYE
    
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    April 25, 2024 11:02am
    - Benedict Yu
      
      If the USA had a “climate emergency” the government would not be allowing the sale of the cheapest petrol in the developed world and allowing tens of thousands of domestic flights each day.
      
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      April 25, 2024 11:30am
      - Steve Otto(North Shore)
        
        It is cheap. Our Alaskan host families moan about paying US$4.37 per US Gallon.
        That comes out as NZ$1.93 per liter. When we were last up there is was in the range of US$2.60 per gallon.
        
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        April 25, 2024 12:17pm
    - Che Guava
      
      Not deliberately having an effectively open border and letting in at least 7,000,000 (known) illegals would be a good way to decrease (or not increase) emissions. Same situation while they were “controlling” Covid. You know a thing is completely fake when the reality of their observable actions clearly contradict the rhetoric.
      
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      April 25, 2024 11:50am
    - NZer In Exile
      
      Just a drive-by comment here as I haven’t watched the video yet. They need an “emergency” to bring in highly corruptible postal voting?
      
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      April 25, 2024 3:03pm
  - Ra Henare
    
    Well any NZ funds to Cambodia re climate change is wasted.
    
    39c today with high 41c forecast for next week
    overnight lows 28. But then again April is the hottest month.
    
    What always amuses me about the climate change scare tactics is that the planet has a wide range of temperatures from here in the tropics to the frozen stepps of You Rope and northern Canada.
    
    Yet everyone gets excited if temperatures change by 1 or 2 degrees.
    
    Mother earth will adapt. Always has, always will.
    
    Unfortunately there are large dollops of cash to be made by the Climate alarmists (probably by climate deniers as well)
    
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    April 25, 2024 4:05pm
- Burtland
  
  Paris Agreement
  
  Art 2 1b Increasing the ability to adapt to the adverse impacts of climate
  change and foster climate resilience and low greenhouse gas emissions
  development, in a manner that does not threaten food production;
  
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  April 25, 2024 11:03am
- NZer In Exile
  
  Chuck Bird, The lead propagandists pretending to be scientists (through their idiot political and media henchmen) have already thoroughly smeared the real scientists of which you speak. Challenging the idiot narratives of climate alarmism and net-zero is verboten. We now live in a dangerous madhouse.
  
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  April 25, 2024 2:20pm
SpencerArnold

The Waitangi Tribunal are appealing the high court decision to deny them the right to call Karen Chour. Man, they are throwing everything including the kitchen sink at this.

Add in the fact that one council wants to force a public vote on the requirement for a referendum on Maori seats (despite the fact they implemented them without a referendum), and we are seeing some desperate throws of the dice in pursuit of power / relevancy.
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April 25, 2024 10:04am
- Benedict Yu
  
  Maybe the functions of the Tribunal should be restricted to investigating historic Treaty breaches in relation to land and natural resources. The when all the iwi settlements are done it can be abolished and we can get on with life as one people.
  
  It makes total sense to me. 🙂
  
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  April 25, 2024 10:24am
  - Damocles11
    
    Don’t let Luxon hear you say that out loud, you’ll be severely reprimanded.
    
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    April 25, 2024 10:52am
  - cas
    
    Totally agree. Look at this link. https://www.waitangitribunal.govt.nz/inquiries/kaupapa-inquiries/military-veterans-inquiry/
    
    They are hearing more than 100 claims relating to the treatment of soldiers but also look at all the other inquiries on the left hand side. It will keep them going for centuries.
    
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    April 25, 2024 12:05pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    All the iwi settlements will never be done until the Govt HTFU and abolish the Tribunal. Grow some cojones National.
    
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    April 25, 2024 12:21pm
  - Ra Henare
    
    The current coalition can change the direction of the TRibunal very easily.
    
    When 3 year terms are up. Do not renew them
    Appoint conservatives.
    
    Reduce the number on the Tribunal from 20 (the maximum under law) to a handful (not necessarily the minimum of 3 as per the Act)
    
    Then watch the troughers fall in to line as they wont want to get their snouts taken out of a nice little earner
    
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    April 25, 2024 4:09pm
- peterwn
  
  This is merely what lawyer Annette Sykes says. She is listed as a Solicitor for the Tribunal but not as a barrister appearing for the Tribunal. She had no business saying there would be an appeal at this stage. This is for the Tribunal to decide. The Tribunal would need to meet and decide on any appeal taking legal advice from their lawyers including Annette Sykes. The Tribunal was in no position to do this late last night.
  The Judgment is here (many thanks to the kind person in the New Zealand Legal Information Institute who put the judgment on the NZLII web site earlier today):
  http://www.nzlii.org/nz/cases/NZHC/2024/931.html
  
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  April 25, 2024 11:04am
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    The Tribunal has to be abolished. At the moment they are prosecutor, Jury, and Judge (or so they think) Come on Mr Luxon, peg them back or lose in 2026.
    
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    April 25, 2024 12:23pm
    - Damocles11
      
      How can Luxon do anything with Potaka and the ‘Maori wing’ of the National Party (think Finlayson and Mapp) watching his every move? Chasing illusory Maori votes has hobbled the National Party, as Maori are wedded to the Labour Party but will shift support to TPM to keep Labour on their toes. Those votes ain’t coming right. But we on the right are going to have to put up with Luxon tugging his forelock to the Waitangi Tribunal, the Kiingi, Ratana, and ‘Iwi leaders’ (activists) while he slaps down Seymour and Peters.
      
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      April 25, 2024 12:48pm
Chuck Bird

‘Just not true’: Data from Hamas on Gaza death toll ‘intrinsically problematical’

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2OmbPdxgts
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April 25, 2024 10:08am
- Che Guava
  
  Does that make Sharri Markson a “denier’ of some sort? It must be hurtful to Palestinians for someone in her position to deny the Palestinian experience.
  
  Then again, it’s fair to say all death toll claims, particularly those of non-combatants, are inherently unreliable, sometimes drastically so, because there are always political motivations for making those claims and the supporting evidence is oftentimes severely lacking. Who’s to say that the Palestinians aren’t just making up any old number of deaths that sounds terrible, just so that people will feel sorry for them?
  
  I think we should interrogate any such claim, because I think its a good heuristic to say that the more someone claims their death tolls are irrefutable and beyond question, the more plausible it is that they are being dishonest. Let’s be sceptical and question all claims of this nature.
  
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  April 25, 2024 10:44am
  - Paulus
    
    It remains somewhat difficult to identify Hamas as it can be said that every Palestinian male over 8 years of age is favoured to be part of Hamas, and you would have no idea except what the so called media say !
    
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    April 25, 2024 2:27pm
  - NZer In Exile
    
    Yes let’s treat a totalitarian regime that targets civilians and promises to repeatedly do so, plus lies constantly, as being equal to a democratic one that actually thoroughly investigates alleged atrocities and holds it’s own people accountable when found wanting. Very smart.
    
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    April 25, 2024 3:08pm
- All_on_Red
  
  https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/how-gaza-health-ministry-fakes-casualty-numbers
  
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  April 25, 2024 11:51am
- Ra Henare
  
  Is this the Lewi Stone Professor at Tel Aviv University?
  
  https://theconversation.com/profiles/lewi-stone-649125
  
  In todays day and age it seems the media can find any academic to support any point of view.
  
  Also interesting that Israeli Intelligence ?? and the UN accept the casualty figures as being approximately correct.
  https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3w4w7/israeli-intelligence-health-ministry-death-toll
  
  As i was told many years ago
  One swallow doesnt make a summer.
  
  ergo one report/Doco doesn’t make anything true.
  
  The debate here on climate change attests to that
  
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  April 25, 2024 4:18pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Sometimes when cruising around on Youtube you cam across some strange but interesting things. Here we have the World’s first screw bike:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfna15r4EXM&t=5s
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April 25, 2024 10:24am
Swifty

Douglas Murray with Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of a Hamas founder and who went on to work with Israeli intelligence, before escaping to the US.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_j2mXvZHTuo

He’s just totally damning of Hamas and Islamism.

Well worth a watch.
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April 25, 2024 10:51am
- Che Guava
  
  Bravo. Next to Brendan O’Neill at Spiked, Douglas Murray is one of the top pro-Zionist shills we have.
  
  “…son of a Hamas founder and who went on to work with Israeli intelligence, before escaping to the US.”
  
  Let’s hear what a Mossad agent who now works for the US intel agencies has to say about Hamas, shall we? I’m fascinated to learn his revelations. He’s an Arab too (one of the good ones), which makes his pro-Israel words even more powerful!
  
  But imagine if Hamas found themselves a Jewish individual who’d seen the light to publicly denounce Israel – we’d be forced to side with Hamas on that basis. Right?
  
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  April 25, 2024 12:20pm
  - Swifty
    
    You’re calling Murray a shill?
    
    Take a look in the mirror.
    
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    April 25, 2024 12:54pm
  - jkt
    
    Death cult!
    
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    April 25, 2024 4:01pm
- Ra Henare
  
  Douglas Murray is openly biased against Palestinians and avidly pro Israel.
  
  Ever come across a son that hates his father and red pills him at every opportunity???
  
  Looking at a number of interviews/read items by him.
  Think he has found a nice little earner talking up opposition to HAMAS relying on some assumed prestige because he was spawned by a founder of HAMAS, the political movement.
  
  Many here fail to understand that HAMAS is primarily a political force that has a military wing.
  
  Sort of like the USA. Congress the democrats being the political wing with CIA, DOJ & DOD, Homeland security being the “”military”” wing.
  
  Of course the same applies when the Republicans have control.
  
  So sorry, while I enjoy Douglas Murray in debate on philosophical grounds, on military conflict he is just another opinionated loud annoying voice.
  
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  April 25, 2024 4:27pm
  - jkt
    
    Ra:
    Douglas Murray is a long time critic of death cultism and multiculturalism.
    
    Most posters here understand that Hamas was elected to represent Gaza Palestinian political aspirations and that they have a military wing.
    
    And then are Hama apologists…. Anti American warriors, anti-semites and anti-zionists.
    
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    April 25, 2024 7:17pm
Swifty

A recent and nice little piece on Sir Keith Park and his elevation to become one of ‘The Few’.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VU-gOewJVhA&pp=ygUaQXVja2xhbmQgbXVzZXVtIGtlaXRoIHBhcms%3D
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April 25, 2024 10:53am
- Mike
  
  Keith Park was probably the most significant military commander ever produced by NZ. His frontline leadership was a critical part of victory in the Battle of Britain. For his role, he was sacked as a result of the argument over tactics.
  
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  April 25, 2024 11:43am
  - All_on_Red
    
    A truly amazing man
    His statue in Trafalgar Square is well deserved
    Details of his service here
    http://www.sirkeithpark.com/
    
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    April 25, 2024 11:55am
  - Ipanema69
    
    Yes see my post below. The issue over tactics was primarily used by Leigh Mallory (oc 12 group) to replace Dowding and Park below.
    
    What is less well known was that Dowding and Park were cleared for Ultra intelligence. Thus they knew they were winning the battle as it was being fought. This was from GermanLuftwaffe enigma decrypts from Bletchley Park.
    
    It speaks volumes about the character of both men that they maintained their silence despite having knowledge that would have helped them save their jobs.
    
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    April 25, 2024 12:20pm
- Ipanema69
  
  Yes Keith Park and Hugh Dowding won the Battle of Britain.
  
  Park was undoubtably a genius with respect to fighter tactics at the group level. It is little known that he wasnt treated well by the RAF establisment after the battle.
  
  When he was brought back to command he was sent to Malta. He completely turned around this campaign.
  
  The command and control system developed by dowding prior to the war could process and filter 1 million pieces of information a minute in 1940. It gave the commanders like park the ability to turn southern england into a wood chipper for the Luftwaffe.
  
  If you get a chance checkout lord hardthrashers youtube channel. There is an excellent 4 part series on the battle.
  
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  April 25, 2024 11:55am
  - mikenmildagain
    
    Best movie about the BoB:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Blue_World
    
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    April 25, 2024 12:11pm
    - kevn
      
      milkymike… Aren’t you in the wrong thread?
      ANZAC related is elsewhere.
      As you kindly pointed out.
      
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      April 25, 2024 12:35pm
  - sungsamning
    
    Mmmm… Yes, was just going to look for a link. Very entertaining and informative videos. They do contain the odd bad word. Not that I mind. Just saying.
    
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    April 25, 2024 7:48pm
- bennerg
  
  Also this talk on Sir Keith Park given locally at the Royal Aeronautical Society BOP:
  
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsQMWDmWpcI
  
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  April 25, 2024 1:48pm
Ghost

Wasn’t the Christchurch call also about removing footage like this from social media. Hmmm, has the Christchurch call failed

Attacked Sydney Bishop Sides With Elon Musk On Keeping Stabbing Video Online
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April 25, 2024 10:57am
- Swifty
  
  ‘Safety’ will be the reason used over time to take away every single liberty and freedom we hold – unless we stand up and firmly say “No”.
  
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  April 25, 2024 11:24am
- I remember when
  
  The Christchurch Call.
  Did we ever need the Christchurch Call or was it just another attempt by a government to make itself relevant?
  As with most supposed problems now, there were already more than enough laws to cover the situation.
  The more laws, the more complexity, another governmental department.
  
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  April 25, 2024 11:25am
  - Paulus
    
    Not make the Government relative but Jacinda Ardern used it for her own self promotion, which she still does at our expense !
    
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    April 25, 2024 2:30pm
  - Ra Henare
    
    The Christchurch call was a splendid opportunity for herself to ride the way of emotion/hysteria generated by the massacre.
    
    Without Tarrant she would have been swept away as ineffectual.
    
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    April 25, 2024 4:31pm
- G the giant from Dunedin
  
  The difference between this and the mass killings was the church conducted the footage, I suggest this makes it different for Musk
  
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  April 25, 2024 12:46pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Stop Co-Governance. Julian Batchelor.

Waitangi Tribunal Is Trying to Bully and Intimidate Politicians.
There are 3 links to look at.

https://stopcogovernance.kiwi/blog/waitangi-tribunal-decision-shows-up-an-activist-judge/
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April 25, 2024 11:36am
cmm

These “anti-war” protesters can fuck right off.

ANZAC is about recognizing the sacrifice of soldiers, especially NZ soldiers. It is not pro-war (as many seem to think).

It is also nothing about politics of war and certainly nothing to do with the Israeli/Gaza war.

Having a pro-palestine protest at an ANZAC parade is totally inappropriate. But no, yet again they hijack something for their own purposes.

Fuck off. Take yourselves and your silly flags elsewhere.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350255125/live-anti-war-protesters-and-100kph-winds-wellington-anzac-service
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April 25, 2024 11:37am
- mikenmildagain
  
  Anzac Day has always had a political purpose, and often a political response.
  
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  April 25, 2024 12:09pm
  - Che Guava
    
    Exactly. How anyone thinks that politics can be separated from war is beyond me, given that war is an extension of politics. Implicit in any war memorial anywhere is the political claim that “these people died doing the right thing” but what the “right thing” is is always debatable and depends on perspective.
    
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    April 25, 2024 12:13pm
    - kowtow
      
      I believe , having read Empires of the Dead ( see link on the other post) that the societal trauma of the huge WW1 casualties led to what we now see as the modern commemoration of our war dead .By modern I mean through the period 1914- early twenties as the war cemeteries , memorials , the selection and return of the remains of the unknown warrior , cenotaphs and Remembrance Sunday ……..etc It was a process of literal national grieving . It took the authorities by surprise . The way people turned out for the return of the unknown soldier’s remains , it gave so many people an opportuyniy to mourn their own losses .
      
      This war was the first national war , no longer a small professional army but legions of conscripts and Pals Massacred on an industrial scale. Everyone affected ,from the highest to the humblest .
      
      Armies and soldiers ( and of course all arms) were no longer the ‘dregs” or prisoners on reprieve .( recall in the past the army was never really such a trusted or valued institution . It was expensive when billeted on locals and was an instrument of the Crown , not the people or parliament)
      Soldiers remains at Waterloo were thought to have been dug up and used as fertiliser . Teeth recycled too ! No respect at all.
      
      In sum , modern commemoration is the first instance anything political.
      
      It is a people’s memorial .
      
      ( so yes all these interlopers should fuck right off)
      
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      April 25, 2024 12:59pm
      - Che Guava
        
        “This war was the first national war, no longer a small professional army but legions of conscripts and Pals Massacred on an industrial scale. Everyone affected ,from the highest to the humblest … In sum , modern commemoration is the first instance anything political.”
        
        If true, then maybe there’s a direct correlation here: maybe we need modern commemorations like ANZAC Day as overtly political acts because modern “total wars” (like WW1 and WW2) now affect most of society (no longer largely limited to “small professional armies” agreeing to fight in a field somewhere) and we therefore have to be instructed that what we are doing and all of the mass sacrifices we make are somehow worth it?
        
        If we didn’t valourise the two 20th century total wars and emphasis the emotive aspects surrounding them, then people would be more inclined to rationally assess the causes and effects of them. As is is, we focus on “Lest we forget” rather than “how did this happen, who benefitted the most, and what was the ultimate result of it all?”
        
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        April 25, 2024 1:57pm
      - jkt
        
        Che, we know exactly how those two wars started and played out.
        “Lest we forget!” Is the lesson that we take from that. What we make of that lesson is what defines us.
        
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        April 25, 2024 4:08pm
    - rouppe
      
      How has New Zealand contributed to the violence currently underway in Gaza?
      
      It hasn’t. So bringing an unrelated matter to an ANZAC event is out of order.
      
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      April 25, 2024 2:43pm
      - Che Guava
        
        To the extent that we support or don’t condemn Israel, we are supporting what they are doing in Gaza. In that way, we contribute to the violence. In the broader context, without Western (and more particularly, American taxpayer) support, Israel would have to stop tomorrow and make a lasting peace with its neighbours.
        
        If you look at it in these concrete terms, Western military and diplomatic support is the factor most responsible for prolonging the conflict, because with it, Israel doesn’t have to make peace.
        
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        April 25, 2024 4:46pm
      - jkt
        
        Che:
        How does one make peace with neighbours who are intent on your annihilation.
        
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        April 25, 2024 7:30pm
  - julesnzuk
    
    Yes but that purpose is not lefty idiots banging on about Palestine.
    
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    April 26, 2024 4:52am
- Che Guava
  
  Would you be so animated if someone had been a pro-war protestor waving an Israeli flag at an ANZAC service instead? Maybe, but I doubt it.
  
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  April 25, 2024 12:09pm
  - Sir Henry Morgan
    
    Yes, Israeli flag wavers can also fuck off. It’s supposed to be an ANZAC service.
    
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    April 25, 2024 3:29pm
    - Che Guava
      
      We agree on that point then. In fact, nobody should be waving any foreign country’s flag in this country.
      
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      April 25, 2024 4:47pm
      - jkt
        
        I cannot agree with you more.
        Yet….. here we are.
        
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        April 25, 2024 7:31pm
      - julesnzuk
        
        No, Che. The point was about inappropriate protests on Anzac Day, not the waving of flags in general.
        
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        April 26, 2024 4:53am
Ghost

The other day we heard about a Jewish student being stabbed in the eye. If this is the video, it seems to be an accident and not a stabbing in the eye

Twitter
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April 25, 2024 11:44am
- David George
  
  You can read a report, and watch footage, on the multiple instances of assault and intimidation of Jewish students here:
  https://www.thefp.com/p/they-were-assaulted-on-campus-for
  
  “They pointed their middle fingers at me and yelled “Free Palestine,” and the taunting continued until a six-foot-something male protester holding a Palestinian flag waved the flag in my face and then stabbed me with it in my left eye.
  
  My assailant was masked and wearing a keffiyeh, concealing his identity. He also wore glasses and a black jacket. I started to yell and chase after him, but the wall of students continued to block me as I screamed. Next, I went to the Yale police, but they offered little in the way of assistance. They told me that their orders came from administrators who weren’t present at the demonstration, and that there were only seven officers to handle a crowd of about 500. So I was checked out by an ambulance EMT, who recommended I go to the hospital.”
  
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  April 25, 2024 12:01pm
  - Che Guava
    
    Oh, the horror! Sounds terrible, but he should be thankful that he’s at an Ivy League school in America and not a Palestinian living in what’s left of Gaza right now.
    
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    April 25, 2024 12:06pm
  - Ghost
    
    The video is there for you to watch, she has overplayed it. The persons face is visible.
    
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    April 25, 2024 12:15pm
vand

Che syas Oh, the horror! Sounds terrible, but he should be thankful that he’s at an Ivy League school in America and not a Palestinian living in what’s left of Gaza right now.”

Che you know Gazans voted in terrorists and reap the consequences. The children are taught in UNWAR schools to hate Jews and that jihad is their purpose in life

Tragic how hatred maintains the Hamas hell in their lives

Even so Hamas can probably get the US to stop Israel right now if they give up the hostages.
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April 25, 2024 12:49pm
- Che Guava
  
  People voted for Hamas, so therefore Israel has a right to murder them (presumably in its role as the self-appointed so-called Good Guy in the region)? Good grief, that’s some twisted logic.
  
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  April 25, 2024 2:06pm
- Ra Henare
  
  Oh dear.
  
  You do know that Gazans voted in HAMAS the political party who got 44.5% of the vote.
  Remember HAMAS, the political party was supported by Netanyahu.
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
  
  Ergo Gazaans did NOT vote in a terrorist organisation.
  They were not a terrorist organisation.
  
  HAMAS Military wing (the freedom fighters/Terrorists) came much later.
  
  It would be nice if commenters took 10 minutes on their keyboards to educate themselves before spouting piffle.
  
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  April 25, 2024 4:38pm
  - Mike
    
    Netanyahu supported Hamas to weaken the PLO.
    
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    April 25, 2024 6:19pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

The truth behind the Stormy Daniels scandal.
She broke the non-disclosure agreement.
She owes Trump $300,000.
Just sweep it under the carpet.

https://www.thepoliticalglobe.com/unveiling-the-truth-behind-the-stormy-daniels-scandal-04-24-2024/?
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April 25, 2024 12:51pm
- Its only I
  
  Why did Trump have the NDA in place?
  
  Unfortunately for Trump the “Stormy D” label is just the media looking for clicks. The real problem for Trump is the catch and kill program how it was funded and who benefited.
  
  It seems the Trump is all on his own with this one, no protestors, no kids and no wife in support.
  
  At least in the background they are putting some thought towards his incarceration…ventilation would be the priority I would imagine.
  
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  April 25, 2024 1:31pm
  - Steve Otto(North Shore)
    
    He had that agreement to stop Daniels spreading her lies and rumours before the 2016 Election. She was being used by the Democrats – Hillary and co. $130,000 to keep quiet but she broke that agreement.
    
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    April 26, 2024 8:20am
- jkt
  
  Steve …… SCOTUS……
  I am keen to see how this plays out.
  
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  April 25, 2024 4:12pm
- Wayne Mapp
  
  ND’s are not a defence in criminal prosecutions, for rather obvious reasons.
  If Trump is found not guilty, it won’t be a result of the NDA, but because the payment is of itself, not a corrupt electoral offence.
  
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  April 25, 2024 5:40pm
  - jkt
    
    Correct.
    But conspiracy to defraud is a felony.
    
    It is interesting to contrast this prosecution to how the NZFirst case was prosecuted. Law-fare and over prosecution are both real concepts. I do not think either is at play in this trial.
    
    The hypocrisy of “Fake News” is so glaring when the one who calls it out was also creating the “Fake News”.
    
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    April 25, 2024 7:43pm
Maggie Pie

Out of respect for my great-grandad who was a highly decorated soldier during WW2,
I decided not to post till after 1 o’clock. I was beqeathed his medals to look after and have them in front of me now.
There’s one with a b/w ribbon that says “For service to NZ 1939-1945”, a bronzy star inscribed “The Africa Star”, another similar that reads “The 1939-1945 Star”, and also another round silver one depicting a “Lion standing on an Eagle 1939-1945 with King George on the front”
I was also given all his brown leather-bound photo albums which must be from Egypt becos they have a Pyramid and Camels embossed on the cover.
He surely must have gone thru sooo much pain and hardship 🙁
Still something to be proud of in todays mixed-up world. Lest we forget.
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April 25, 2024 1:19pm
- kevn
  
  Maggie… My Dad always remembered street cruelty to the animals in Egypt. Donkeys lived in misery and fear.
  
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  April 25, 2024 3:26pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    Some of my fave photos show my GGF with his friends in uniform at a Zoo in Egypt. The place looks huge and the variety of animals is amazing. Wonder how they were treated during the war 🙁
    
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    April 25, 2024 3:40pm
- Mike
  
  In order (of your comment but not the order of wear), they are the NZ War Service Medal, the African Star (service in the desert war), the 1939-45 Star (any service in an operational area) , and the War Medal.
  
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  April 25, 2024 3:32pm
  - Maggie Pie
    
    For some reason they’re stitched together at the top in pairs (?)
    
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    April 25, 2024 3:52pm
    - Mike
      
      Should be in one row. It’s easy to get them mounted properly for wall display or wearing.
      
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      April 25, 2024 4:24pm
- Ra Henare
  
  Sorry to be a skeptic.
  But you listed his Participation medals.
  (My father had similar and he was a driver for the Engineers.)
  
  If he was highly decorated there should be some combat related medals.
  
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  April 25, 2024 4:42pm
  - Mike
    
    The two stars indicate operational service. The lack of a Defence Medal indicates not much service in the rear areas.
    No gallantry awards, but standard and respectable soldiering.
    
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    April 25, 2024 4:55pm
    - Maggie Pie
      
      Heaps of photos showing Hughie in the desert standing with other soldiers and holding a rifle wearing a tin hat. Broght back lots of german waepons like knives, belts, even a pistol in a holster….. all of which I’ve since given my partner to add to his collection of Nazi memorabelia.
      Came home in a hostital ship after getting wounded by a granade. Gran told us he lived on a diet of bread & milk most of the time when he came back.
      Always got into fights apperantly. Hated ‘conchies’ with a passion she told us.
      
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      April 25, 2024 5:40pm
Chuck Bird

Biden was reading a teleprompter and was trying to get his supporters to chant “4 more years”. He said 4 more years about 3 or 4 times and read out pause which was meant that he took a pause.

Surely, they will replace him before November.
8 2
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April 25, 2024 3:10pm
- kevn
  
  Chuck.. A meat puppet. Elder abuse.
  
  7 2
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  April 25, 2024 3:26pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Trump. A loan that does not exist? Debt dumping?

https://www.msn.com/en-nz/news/other/trump-may-soon-be-facing-a-new-big-legal-problem/ss-AA1nwAGB#image=1
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April 25, 2024 3:27pm
Maggie Pie

And another good reason why we the people should fight tooth & nail to prevent Pollies from ever being allowed to censor social-media platforms…..

https://twitter.com/ImMeMe0/status/1783139169868423606

LOL!!!
7 2
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April 25, 2024 3:48pm
Steve Otto(North Shore)

Saturday Night Live (SNL)
SNL would NEVER air this today. But boy, did they nail it back in 2014.

https://rumble.com/v4qyviu-back-when-snl-was-funny-they-predicted-pro-hamas-crazies-on-college-campuse.html?
5 2
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April 25, 2024 3:57pm
Maggie Pie

When this tweet from hard-out commie John Minto popped up, I was very tempted to reply with my cents worth.
But reading what others have responded with, it pretty much covers what I was going to say anyway 😀

https://twitter.com/JohnJohnMinto/status/1783275947384553963
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April 25, 2024 4:05pm

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