Russell Brown on Nicky Hager
Before Nicky is embraced and hugged to death by the National haters, I thought some quotes on Nicky’s other works by Russell Brown would be a useful context:
“Nicky Hager’s book turns on the science – and the science in it is WRONG.”
“On Hager’s side, we only have the unnamed “experts” in his book. We don’t know who these people are, whether they’re qualified or even, really, if they exist.”
“Nicky Hager actually admitted in Wednesday’s interview with Dean Williams that he had no proof that that was the case.”
Also Nicky Hager was a co-author of the SST Operation Leaf story re the SIS, which was found to be totally wrong, and based on a con.
So while the Brash emails will speak for themselves, if made public, I would take anything Hager says about six senior National Party figures co-operating with his book with a huge grain of salt. Russell Brown has suggested in the past Hager simply makes up anonymous sources. If Hager can not produce even one single name to back up his claims, then they must be treated with suspicion.
Likewise his characterisation of what the e-mails reveal, is simply his characterisation. Personally I would be surprised if there was much there, as Winston had these for over a year and the worst he revealed was some e-mails from Roger Kerr and others encouraging him to run for Leader etc, and of yes an offer of assistance from a US campaign expert (which was declined).
But I don’t know for sure. I suspect Hager will go to court and a Judge will look at the e-mails and proposed book and make a decision about whether there is material in there of public interest sufficient to outweigh the privacy aspect, and the fact they were illegally obtained.
November 21st, 2006 at 1:55 pm
Yes Nicky Hager and credibility, two words that are mutually exclusive of each other.
November 21st, 2006 at 2:04 pm
Lets see the book and judge for ourselves, freedom of speech and all that.
November 21st, 2006 at 2:07 pm
It might all be crap. But it will now be crap with saturation news coverage, crap that people will want to read, and that’s the best marketing campaign an author could ask for. Thanks to Brash’s attempt to stop it.
See “Spycatcher”, in the 1980′s. The dullest best-seller ever.
Bans make bucks.
November 21st, 2006 at 2:17 pm
Kind of a funny situation. If the book is all crap, based on nothing, then it should be OK to print. If it’s based on the emails, and is pretty close to the truth then the injunction applies and it is banned. So we can only read it if it’s false.
I think it will come out one way or another. Agree with Simon G, the injunction increases it’s profile hugely.
November 21st, 2006 at 2:17 pm
Smear campaign against a man whose book hasn’t been published yet?
It must be juicy as hell.
I wonder how many lies Don has been telling the New Zealand electorate. Lets see what REAL corruption looks like – the sort of corruption you get when unelected elites buy the right man to enact their secret agendas.
November 21st, 2006 at 2:19 pm
Spycatcher is a good example of how this might play out.
At one point British customs were having to cut out bits of imported copies of Pravda as they had information from the book. You could buy it in Moscow but not in London in case the Russians found out our secrets!
Finally a judge ruled that as the allegations were so widely known abroad it could be published in the UK.
As soon as some blogger gets their mits on this book and puts it on a US based site anonymously it is game over for keeping it hidden. If Brash was smart he would withdraw the injunction.
November 21st, 2006 at 2:26 pm
Yep, now everyone will want to read it, and anyone with the emails will post it on the internet too in order to out it so everyone knows so that the injunction will be become powerless…
I know Nicky, and I respect him as a journalist but I will read the book if it comes out and I am no fool, I will be able to tell if it is good or over sensationalised.
Brash has killed his political career by saying that he would have to resign if the emails came out, everyone will be thinking (and saying closer to the next election) WHAT DOES HE HAVE TO HIDE? Don’t think he will be leader still at the next election, and if he is the emails even if they aren’t as bad as Nicky says will still drag him down…
Lets just read the book and then decide whether Nicky is on to it or a nutter. I won’t be surprised to hear those on the right attack his credibility, and also witness those on the left hug him as you said David, enjoy your meeting with Thatcher too!
November 21st, 2006 at 2:38 pm
That’s right Sonic. It’s important that we publish as much half-truth, conjecture and speculation as possible, so that everyone can decipher the truth for themselves.
I do wonder if you’d be as bullish had the book been written by the EB exposing serious breaches in democratic process, bribery and corruption by your labour lords and masters. I suspect not.
November 21st, 2006 at 2:40 pm
If there is any evidence of illegal activities then Hager should have taken it to the police.
November 21st, 2006 at 2:42 pm
Why are the left so desperate to bring down Dr Brash?
If Leftie Lairbourite Loonies think for a second this book written by a Green Party activist – no doubt full of half truths & spin, somehow reconciles the fact that Lairbour stole from the tax payer to win the election & their recent planning screw-up with regards to the billion dollar stadium, then think again.
Lairbour’s corruption is fact. This book is nothing but a fairy tale.
November 21st, 2006 at 2:46 pm
” It’s important that we publish as much half-truth, conjecture and speculation as possible, so that everyone can decipher the truth for themselves.”
Yes it is, that is what freedom of information is all about.
“I do wonder if you’d be as bullish had the book been written by the EB exposing serious breaches in democratic process, bribery and corruption by your labour lords and masters. I suspect not.”
I’d be very interested to read it as it happens, I’m against corruption by any party as should you be.
November 21st, 2006 at 2:49 pm
Just to be tedious and make sure this link is on both threads:
Hager’s press conference and press kit
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0611/S00368.htm
November 21st, 2006 at 2:52 pm
What’s that David? I can’t hear you over the whirring of the spin machine
Anyway, I posted this on No Right Turn a couple of hours ago:
“I was critical of the way Nicky Hager sprang his Corngate documents. I didn’t think the possibility of an injunction was real enough to justify the way he acted. I think Don Brash has now vindicated that action, and I’ll be saying so in the blog tomorrow.”
I took issue with some parts of ‘Seeds of Deception’, and it may be that the same would be the case with the new book, ‘Hollow Men’. In her introduction, Marilyn Waring suggests that “There’s not too much conspiracy in some of the letters quoted from old politicians.”
But we don’t know, because the book has been injuncted.
And I’m pretty sure I didn’t say that Nicky Hager invents anonymous sources. What I did say was the scientific claims in that book were undermined by the fact that his expert’s assessment couldn’t be measured against his (or her) credibility, because the expert wasn’t named.
Good try, though.
November 21st, 2006 at 2:52 pm
Sonic said: Yes it is, that is what freedom of information is all about.
There’s a fine line between freedom of information & propaganda. Propaganda is using the media to perpetuate a lie i.e. this book.
I’m against corruption by any party
Ha have you been living under a rock these last few months. News flash; Labour stole from the tax payer.
November 21st, 2006 at 2:56 pm
Reading the frantic hypocricy and thrashing about of people who only a few weeks ago were throwing around the vilest libel imaginable is richly satisfying, and a good reminder that revenge is dish best enjoyed cold.
Squirm you cock suckers, squirm.
November 21st, 2006 at 2:57 pm
“This book is nothing but a fairy tale.”
It’s whatever we want it to be. That’s the beauty of not being allowed to find out.
I’ll go with Gospel truth. Well, that’s as well-founded as any other review by those who also haven’t read it.
And the longer it’s banned, the more people will want to believe it. Well done, Don.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:01 pm
Nicky Hager is a disgruntled little rich boy, living in a very fine home in Roseneath, taking pot-shots against the very people who left him the trust account he lives so well on.
If he actually had to work for a living as a writer, he’d have to do proper research.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:12 pm
TomS said: Squirm you cock suckers, squirm.
Must be hard to type wearing that tight corset & garter belt ensemble. Perhaps you should wait for your nails to dry before typing another comment.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:14 pm
toms:
Get a fucking job. When Don Brash leads National to a whalloping victory over you pinko socialists at the next election, you’ll have to get off your arse and work.
My bet is that within six months of leading a welfare-free life, you’ll feel liberated and start voting for tax cuts.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:21 pm
Scoop has pics of the contents pages:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0611/S00368.htm
The chapter titles certainly suggest room for debate on some of Hager’s conclusions. So, hey, bring it on. Let’s be allowed to read the book and see what we all think of it.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:21 pm
what’s that smell of burning rubber..?
“oh..we are spinning spinning spinning..
throughout the land…”
what was that word again..?..corruption..?
now we are going to get the real stench..
the stench of the hi-jacking of the centreist national party by rightwing ideologues in collusion with the roundtable…a breakdown of a detailed (successful) conspiracy..
(how does bill english keep a straight face/stop from screaming..?
eh..?..)
and if that isn’t enough..then there is the election campaign…
i’don’t really care about brash on this..
he’s yesterdays’ man..
it’s heir-apparent(?)key to whom i’m looking with interest..
and wondering just how deep in the doo-doo he is..?
(and i’m picking he’s in there deep…one of the ‘players’..)
and you righties can scream and moan all you like..
(i’m just off to sharpen some quills..tee-hee.!
but you should follow the link to the foreward by former national party m.p. marilyn waring..
(a real ‘commie’..eh..?..)
read that foreward..and feel your blood chill..!
(gee..!..it’s really hard to sharpen quills when you are rubbing your hands together in delighted anticipation..eh..?..)
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 21st, 2006 at 3:23 pm
“Propaganda is using the media to perpetuate a lie i.e. this book.”
Read it have you?
Thought not.
“When Don Brash leads National to a whalloping victory”
There may, of course, be a chance that National wins the next election, but not with Don in charge.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:27 pm
Wow, i read Waring’s intro and she anticipated this reaction, being a pre-smearing by the mindless party faithful. Of course, the smear is of the messenger not the message, the message unavailable for us to read for now, thanks to DB.
If the book proves to be even nearly as accurate and inciteful as the forward has already been proven to be, then DB is toast.
The injunction will be lifted, the book will be published, and any apparent breach of DB’s rights will be dealt with by damages. If there is no success with damages, then the injunction was incorrect, and DB becomes a sad footnote in our history. (this is providing Hager is telling the truth that the emails he uses are not of a personal nature, if they are then the injunction will rightly remain, at least in regard to those of a personal nature anyway).
November 21st, 2006 at 3:28 pm
Russell – the quote is from Hard News – you did cast doubt on whether the experts even existed.
I’m not against the book being published per se. In fact I think the Court would allow it to be published if Hager applies.
But I do wonder how people can be appalled at hiring a private detective to follow the PM, yet be supportive of making use of e-mails illegally gained.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:29 pm
For the longest time I have defended Brash against the attacks of the blueberry brigade, some of whom I am certain would rather Labour had a Lee Quan Yew-type reign before allowing Brash to lead the Nats to the treasury benches. I do not share DPF’s optimism that none of them have colluded with Hagar on his book. What can you say about such people? How can we run any sort of opposition to the ruling party with these people in our ranks?! It’s like being in East Germany – you never know who the Stasi informants are until it’s too late.
That said I can’t defend Brash’s injunction. If he really cannot function as an MP should those emails be subject to public scrutiny, then he shouldn’t be in parliament, let alone Leader of the Opposition. Publish and be damned, I say.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:36 pm
RE Russell’s comment on room for debate on Hagar’s conclusions
The chapter headings and their length and Waring’s comments plus hagar’s history, immediately made me think he has a couple of thin emails from which a range of conclusions can be drawn and he will choose the one that best fits his thesis, regurgitate a large amount of newspaper material to pad the chapter to recap the issue and say it is all a right wing conspiracy.
PS I note DPF is leaving the country in a hurry…will Hagar see a connection?
November 21st, 2006 at 3:36 pm
Didn’t Mr Hager have a hissy fit a few years ago about how the yanks were nothing but scumbags for spying on all the freedom loving people of the world. Seems Mr Hager is no better then the very people he likes to vilifty.Prehaps Hager should get a job in echelon, he would be like a pig in swill.
This man would sale his soul if it would sale his books.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:37 pm
Phewww…. I’ve just read the contents page & introduction. Everything single headline & point has been brought up before by the Labour Party & co.
From what I can see it’s just a partisan view of Nationals recent past, nothing new.
There may, of course, be a chance that National wins the next election, but not with Don in charge.
And what are you… a fortune teller. Thought not. Take a cold shower buddy.
Sonic, maybe if the book was written by someone of known neutrality, or better still someone who is right leaning, then perhaps it could be taken more seriously.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:38 pm
Normally you do not shoot the messenger until you at least get a chance to read the message.
Desperate stuff chaps.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:38 pm
DPF.
Nicky Hagar, Press Conference. 21.11.2006
November 21st, 2006 at 3:43 pm
I fail to see how the above to posts are connected.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:44 pm
DPF
“But I do wonder how people can be appalled at hiring a private detective to follow the PM, yet be supportive of making use of e-mails illegally gained.”
Because this one is going to provide oodles more shit-hitting-fan entertainment than Helen’s everyday corruption ever could.
Let’s face it, the belly laughs have begun already with the frothing at the mouth idealogues posting their “I don’t need to read this book to know it’s evil” ranting….
Quite the retinue you’ve attained there lad….
November 21st, 2006 at 3:45 pm
“I fail to see how the above to posts are connected. ”
I screamed with laughter when I read that. How absolutely ironic
November 21st, 2006 at 3:46 pm
NX says, repeatedly … Lairbour.
But I don’t get it.
Is it a clever play on words that I’m not clever enough to understand?
If so, can someone explain?
November 21st, 2006 at 3:50 pm
I screamed
Yep, I thought so.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:50 pm
I see all sides sighned up for my courses:
Shrill 101
Spin 101
backpedal 101
abuse sonic 101
blame messanger 101
get those NZQA credits.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:53 pm
Imagine if Labour met with a group of Unionists about how they could support his campaign with their money; Labour got money from an overseas based billionaire; Labour supports socialist type policies; Labour softens it’s policies because of negative reaction from the centre vote; Labour is supported by business and unions; and the Labour talks to the Fed Farmers, Business NZ, Unions, Social Activist Groups and other interest groups about how their policies will affect them.
I’m sure it would make an interesting book if someone got hold of the emails from Labour that discussed the above and selectively quoted from them.
November 21st, 2006 at 3:54 pm
blame messanger 101.
get those NZQA credits.
except spelling 101?
(I know, I know … we don’t worry about spelling in blog comments sections.)
November 21st, 2006 at 3:56 pm
God this is fun!
I shouldn’t really take such pleasure from the public humiliation of others but….
….they shouldn’t make it so easy.
NX for Minister of Tasers!
November 21st, 2006 at 3:56 pm
Russell – the quote is from Hard News – you did cast doubt on whether the experts even existed.
You said I suggested that “Hager simply makes up anonymous sources.” I bloody well did not. That was not what I said. What I said was that Hager provided no information at all about his expert witness(es), while on the other hand (you clipped that bit out while you were paraphrasing me) several other scientists, including Russell Poulter at Otago Uni, had interpreted the evidence quite differently.
I’m happy enough to note that I followed up that radio commentary (as Hard News was back then) with an email the next day apologising to readers for what I’d decided was an overly emotional tone, and that I’ve subsequently acknowledged I was wrong on some things. As I said, I still take issue with some claims in the book, most notably the key one that there was no doubt on the science, when Poulter had in fact advised that there wasn’t good enough proof of GM contamination.
But anyway, here’s one from the Kiwiblog archive:
“Now today we find out that Ms Hobbs has not even read the Nicky Hager book, yet this did not stop her claiming “Mr Hager’s book has all the facts wrong, his claims are wrong”
Sort of rings a bell …
But I do wonder how people can be appalled at hiring a private detective to follow the PM, yet be supportive of making use of e-mails illegally gained.
And no National MP has ever made merry with a leaked email, I take it?
November 21st, 2006 at 3:58 pm
oops,
never was a strong point…
November 21st, 2006 at 3:59 pm
Michael, the Labour party are upfront and honest about their connections with the unions. What Hager is suggesting he has E-Mails which state that National are dishonest about their connections, and the one I’m waiting for….illegal electioneering.
November 21st, 2006 at 4:02 pm
The emails suggest that the Don has been talking to American neo conservatives. I would indeed be concerned it he’d been talking to American pinkos.
Let the book be published, who gives rats arse.
November 21st, 2006 at 4:05 pm
I love the “Tags” on this post – “Don Brash Emails Nicky Hagar”.
Mystery solved?
November 21st, 2006 at 4:07 pm
… the Labour party are upfront and honest
Reader shrieks with laughter, rolls around banging floor with hand, recovers and writes:
Jeff, this would be the CornGate, SpeederGate, PainterGate, PledgeGate, Field-BribeGate and ChangeTheLawGate government you are referring to – yes?
November 21st, 2006 at 4:08 pm
“who gives rats arse.”
A certain Dr D Brash it seems. Does anyone know if he paid for his injunction legal fees with his own, the Natiional Partie’s or the taxpayers money?
November 21st, 2006 at 4:10 pm
David, to your credit you staunchly support free speech.
The issue here is whether we allow free speech/expression and the interests of democracy (DB being an elected official) to be subjugated when balanced against the interests of an individual’s copyright/privacy.
You cannot state with certainty whether the information was illegally obtained, unless you are privy to the whole thing. He could have left it lying, it could have been leaked by someone with authorised access.
If it was illegally obtained then DB can go to court in the full face of the information with the injunction lifted. He has the right to sue anyone who breaches his rights in the use of that information. The court can provide him with a remedy, and punish those who breach his rights.
In sum, supporting the lifting of the injunction is NOT supporting the use of illegally obtained anything.
The court should err on the side of allowing publication in the interests of free speech and transparent democracy, and if one opts to use information that may breach another’s rights they should be free to do so in knowledge of the risk of getting sued.
On a personal note, i will be appalled if it turns out that a person hacked into his computer. If I was forwarded information I knew had been so obtained, then I would not publish, but it must (in the interest of democracy) be -my choice- to take or not take that risk with the information.
I do not support the use of illegally obtained emails, but let the public be the judge of that, because the public will not simply take your word (or DB’s) for the fact of their illegality, no matter how probable that fact.
cheers,
james cairney
November 21st, 2006 at 4:12 pm
Andrew, I said upfront and honest about their connections with the unions. I know you guys are trying to salvage some respect but blatantly selecting parts of phrases only makes you look worse
November 21st, 2006 at 4:13 pm
Brash and the Nnational party should just publish the emails and kill the book stone dead.
Shut Winston up at the same time.
I would have thought that it would have been strategically more beneficial to publish the book about 4 to 5 months out from the election to get the most milage from potential lurid details.
This way the storm will be over before the next election. Unless of course the labour party is planning a snap election for Feb next year?
November 21st, 2006 at 4:21 pm
Lets look at the nightmare/dream scenario.
Suppose the emails show evidence that not only did National knew about the EB’s leaflets, they were involved in producing them.
Then is is goodbye Don minumum, electoral act breach investigation time, and possible more casualties at a senior level (John Key was mentioned by name)
We also know National’s reliance on blind trusts to fund itself. Any evidence that National party figures knew who was donating and we have another police investigation into their party funding.
Certainly the writer of the introduction seems to think so, she comments”
“I would expect to see much of the evidence set out in the book reported to the Electoral Commission, Parliamentary Services, the police and the Auditor-General.”
Hagar also adds in his introduction
“Hager says the leaked papers came from the highest levels of the National Party hierarchy. Six people in particular provided most of the information.
The sources were “profoundly unhappy” with National’s “good” election campaign, which brought Brash within a hair’s breadth of becoming prime minister.
“They believed that some of this “good” campaigning had been so unprincipled and even unlawful that the country was lucky they had lost the election,” Hager writes in his preface.”
Not a good look.
November 21st, 2006 at 4:21 pm
It’s all Dave Dobbyn’s fault.
If he hadn’t been allowed to sing that seditious ditty the empire would still be in place & we’d be none the wiser.
November 21st, 2006 at 4:26 pm
Well, as I said on another thread it’s nice to see Craig Potton is starting up a fiction list – and that’s just as apt a description of Nicky Hagar’s work as Ian Wishart’s. Sorry, frothers, but if Marilyn Waring thinks Mr. Hagar meets “high academic standards” Massey University should be preparing an academic audit of her teaching and research. I think even Russell could acknowledge the Operation Leaf farce – to take one example of Nikky’s work – barely reached basic evidentary standards expected of cub reporters fresh out of poly.
Then again, folks like Hagar and Wishart do very well out of masturbating the pre-existing prejudices of their audiences. As P.T. Barnum famously said, there’s a sucker born every minute – and I’d go further and say there’s someone to exploit them every fifteen seconds. Just don’t expect me to take them seriously.
November 21st, 2006 at 4:28 pm
Jeff, a fair cop. So turning to the matter of unions for a second, remind me what is ‘upfront and honest’ about union members having their fees support a government they detest but having no choice in the matter? The concessions offered to unions as part of their support for the 1999 election win amount to nothing more than massive corruption. How is it that the leveraged support of 100’s of thousands of NZers is up ‘front and honest’ while EB (or any other group that doesn’t sing Labours song) is bagged as cancerous, election buying etc?
Call me old fashioned, but faced with a choice of supporting labour’s demonstrated corruption and contempt for executive power or supporting national despite alleged tricks to gain office – I’ll choose the latter. Or move overseas. There is almost no depth that any opposition could stoop to become worse that the corrupt government we are saddled with. What a horrible choice for voters!
November 21st, 2006 at 4:28 pm
So Craig your prediction is that nothing will come of this, it is just a storm in a teacup that will be gone with the morning dew?
November 21st, 2006 at 4:38 pm
I am not against the book being published. I think it is likely a Judge will rule the book is okay to be published (while maybe retaining the order for the other 10,000+ emails which might have been taken/stolen/misappropriated).
I suspect the book may get tabled in Parliament (which would allow everyone to read it for free) anyway.
What I am against is people accepting Hager’s assertions as to what the book proves and who contgributed to it.
Unlike Marian I intend to read the book, once it is available. Who knows I may even feature in it (most unlikely though).
As for what Russell said about Hager, I go to the source document:
http://nznews.net.nz/hardnews/2002/20020712.html
“Poulter isn’t the only scientist to back the government view. They all have. On Hager’s side, we only have the unnamed “experts” in his book. We don’t know who these people are, whether they’re qualified or even, really, if they exist.”
Now tell me how that is not casting doubt on whether people quoted in the book even exist.
November 21st, 2006 at 4:41 pm
I agree with you David on waiting for the book to come out, however if he has the actual emails that would be difficult, even for a master like your good self, to spin.
November 21st, 2006 at 4:48 pm
Oh dear Russell. Egg meet Face.
November 21st, 2006 at 4:49 pm
David, you want it published yourself, yet equate others who want it published with being “supportive of the use of illegally obtained emails”, and that David, it simply bollocks.
You further “what I am against is people accepting Hagar’s assertions as to what the book proves …”
WTF? Who the hell is doing that?
And you deduce this from a press release? Or have you already read the book? Or do you know some of the substance? What on earth is your issue pre-publication, you yourself are raising a hell of a lot of interest.
November 21st, 2006 at 4:52 pm
Craig, it sounds like Hager’s book has a lot more meat in it than a pic of some guys hugging. But I agree that ill gotten information is creepy, even if I think knowing whether some leader’s partner is gay is considerably less in the public interest than a detailed analysis of the internal workings of a major political party’s election campaign.
November 21st, 2006 at 4:56 pm
http://www.beehive.govt.nz/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=21475
November 21st, 2006 at 4:59 pm
Now tell me how that is not casting doubt on whether people quoted in the book even exist.
Alright David, if you insist on roping me into your damage-control effort in this fashion, let me state for the record: if anything I have written in the past has been read as saying (your words, not mine): that “Hager simply makes up anonymous sources” then I regret the implication and withdraw it. I think Hager’s experts existed, and I could venture a guess as to who at least one of them was. I remain of the view that the complete absence of information about them undermined the claims attributed to them in the book.
I’ve said my piece about Corngate repeatedly and at some length. Short version: there was a genuine story there, but I take issue with the way key elements of it were characterised. The story may well be the same with ‘Hollow Men’. Let’s find out.
November 21st, 2006 at 4:59 pm
Interesting Crazy fool
“But after a while it began to become clear that Dr Brash was one of the hollow men: a headpiece filled with straw whose dry voice whispered quiet and meaningless things”
Michael Cullen this month,
November 21st, 2006 at 5:03 pm
http://www.beehive.govt.nz/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=21475
November 21st, 2006 at 5:06 pm
Whatever else Hager is, he is not a potential Prime Minister. Brash purports to be. He should be held to a higher standard.
Bad stuff happens. Political judgement is about how you deal with it. Don Brash has decided on a course of action that simply cannot succeed, because whatever claims people make – politicians or humble contributors on Kiwiblog – cannot be supported or countered, without reference to the allegations made. “Trust me, I know, but you don’t need to know” is not a compelling argument.
Brash has made a grave error of judgement in trying to shut down the debate rather than win it. Attempts to discredit Hager will always get the same response: “I’d like to show you proof, but I’m not allowed to tell you”. So Hager cannot lose. That is Brash’s doing. And this will continue, with the media pursuing the story until they are allowed to tell it.
Perhaps the story will not amount to much in the end. But by then it will be too late. The suppression has become the story.
Brash has made his final mistake, the National party know it, and will surely make a move very soon – for their own sake.
November 21st, 2006 at 5:08 pm
If this is all the left have to throw around they are really in trouble.Emails-who cares outside the beltway. Poor old Toms contiues to struggle and can only resort to the usual rubbish of smear and insinuation without fact in the face of ample proof of Labours corrupt ways. Your niece must be so proud, well actually she must have inherited your thick genes if she believes a word you say.
November 21st, 2006 at 5:09 pm
Wasnae this month my friend, it was the closing address to the 2004 Labour Conference.
I hope Don Brash and National goes down, followed closely by Helen Clark and Labour. Scum the lot of them, except for the Maori Party (mostly), you may not agree with their policies but at least they have a fistful of integrity.
I have always thought, as a working class Maori Pakeha (not neccesarily in that order)that the only real difference between Labour and National is that the former stabs you in the back, whereas the former is more likely to sta you in the front.
November 21st, 2006 at 5:16 pm
Well, as I said on another thread it’s nice to see Craig Potton is starting up a fiction list – and that’s just as apt a description of Nicky Hagar’s work as Ian Wishart’s. Sorry, frothers, but if Marilyn Waring thinks Mr. Hagar meets “high academic standards” Massey University should be preparing an academic audit of her teaching and research. I think even Russell could acknowledge the Operation Leaf farce – to take one example of Nikky’s work – barely reached basic evidentary standards expected of cub reporters fresh out of poly
I wrote in fairly scathing terms about the Operation Leaf fiasco, but I actually felt sorry for Hager on that one. It wasn’t his story or his sources. As the official report made clear, he was brought into it late in the piece, not long before publication.
And no one deserves a comparison with Wishart.
November 21st, 2006 at 5:22 pm
“And no one deserves a comparison with Wishart.”
Except perhaps a number of politicians from all points on the ideological spectrum. I cant wait to read the book, and also to see the return fire from the political right, hopefully it will not only be the National that gets hammered in this episode. Labour deserves a share too.
November 21st, 2006 at 5:28 pm
Sonic: I’m against corruption by any party as should you be.
Except that you’re plainly not, Sonic. Helen can forge, steal from the taxpayer, harbour child molesting ministers and engineer removal of a police commissioner by lying to the press. That’s all just fine by you.
If this stuff from Hagar is the exception and has some legs I’ll condemn Brash. I suspect, however, it’ll be more of the usual bullshit. Conversations with Americans will be dressed as having policy written in America. The Brethren telling Brash they want everyone to know Labour are bad will be dressed as some conspiracy its not. You and your kind will buy into the conspiracy theory, but it won’t make it true.
It’s just stupid for you to claim some sort of even handedness about Brash.
November 21st, 2006 at 5:28 pm
Just listened Hager then Brash on Checkpoint. Crikey. There’ll be someone’s blood on the floor when this is done.
Brash repeatedly insisted he was not suppressing the book, just any “stolen emails” that may appear in it (ie: the evidence that would allow us to decide whether the book has merit), and made the curious contention that just a few emails was a leak, but lots of them was theft.
November 21st, 2006 at 5:41 pm
If these emails were stolen – and it seems they were, however they were obtained, then what is the outcome if they are allowed to enter the public domain on the grounds of public interest?
First no sensible politician of any persuasion will use email as a means of communication any more because they seem to be less privileged (in terms of property and privacy) than common letters or even faxes.
AND/OR
No sensible person will ever run for office – unless they are also masochists.
Either or both ways – we are all worse off.
November 21st, 2006 at 5:50 pm
I’m curious – Hager said on checkpoint that the emails were FROM Brash, which means they went to another person. If that person then passed them onto Hager, is that theft?
I agree with Owen that this sort of ‘investigative journalism’ does nothing for anyone except the scum journalist.
November 21st, 2006 at 5:52 pm
There can be no theft in either case.
November 21st, 2006 at 5:54 pm
There can be no theft in either case. Information cannot be stolen, the paper on which it was contained (if it was paper) could be stolen. Word is that he had copies, so no issue there either. The word ‘stolen’ is overused spin in this case.
November 21st, 2006 at 5:55 pm
There can be no theft in either case. Information cannot be stolen, the paper on which it was contained (if it was paper) could be stolen. Word is that he had copies, so no issue there either. The word ‘stolen’ is overused spin in this case.
November 21st, 2006 at 6:06 pm
Sonic:
My simple statement of fact is that Hagar must have very serious credibility issues in the eyes of any reasonable person, after putting his by-line on the Sunday Star-Times’ ‘Operation Leaf’ story. As far as I’m aware, he still stands by it.
If you’re willing to take anything he says at face value, that’s your affair.
November 21st, 2006 at 6:29 pm
James C. Under your definition, you can’t steal state secrets as long as you don’t take the physical original. So I don’t think that point of view is supportable.
November 21st, 2006 at 6:33 pm
In terms of credibility issues it appears that Brash had contact with the EBs at the start of 2005, something which he has either denied or failed to disclose up till now. That is one of the points Hager makes in his book, which Brash has had to admit to as a result of the publication of it (the book is well and truly public now if not mostly published as well). We are left with a hint that there are many more allegations in the book like that which Brash, in his ‘honesty’ will have to admit to.
I always knew that Brash would go down. I never figured it would happen this suddenly and so publicly and humiliatingly. Poor bugger.
November 21st, 2006 at 6:41 pm
Corruption?
Those who live in glasshouses should not throw stones…
November 21st, 2006 at 6:46 pm
kiwi_donkey – that’s probably right – you may not be able to “steal” state secrets in such circumstances.
However, just because someone can’t be charged with theft, doesn’t mean they can’t be charged with anything (like unauthorised access to a computer, misuse of official information, or treason etc.)
November 21st, 2006 at 7:04 pm
If these e-mails have been leaked (c/f hacked), then that indicates an incredible degree of dissent within the National party with respect to Dr Brash’s leadership. A divisive man, perhaps?
November 21st, 2006 at 7:09 pm
Kent are you watching John sorry helengrad please forgive me Campbell cry on TV 3 and that silly twerp Hager .He said politicans should tell the truth -lol where is Taito ,what a bunch of pc limp dicks. I am unhappy about the labour party as I saw the prime ministers husband go to the bog with paul !!!! bring it on you scumbags !!!
November 21st, 2006 at 7:12 pm
Sonic said: “Any evidence that National party figures knew who was donating and we have another police investigation into their party funding”.
I don’t think so. Labour and National know who many of their donors are. It’s rather easy when the donors tell the parties that they have donated. Having said that, if Hager has information of criminal wrongdoing, he’s obliged to go to the police, right?
November 21st, 2006 at 7:13 pm
Kent ask sandra why she had to cover it all up !!!!
November 21st, 2006 at 7:26 pm
As Michael said, what would it be like if the situ were reversed? How about a tell-all book about Helen Clark? The author would be in court so fast it’d spin your head.
Someone should do it though – write a book about Dear Helen: First stop, the EB to see what info they can give us for the juicy bits.
I’m sure Helen’s got a lot more in her closet (besides the primary-red and blue suits with Chairman Mao collars). A lot more to find than Brash does, anyway.
November 21st, 2006 at 7:46 pm
kiwi_donkey, information per se cannot be stolen, as there cannot an be intention to deprive permanently. ‘Secrets’ cannot be stolen, you are confused with copyright.
Whatever crime (or tort) DB believes he is a victim of, it cannot be theft as he is complaining about emails.
I do not know if his complaint concerns copyright, privacy, breach of confidence, or unlawful computer access. My gut instinct tells me breach of confidence, which will leave him with a civil action against the leaker.
November 21st, 2006 at 7:51 pm
So the joker who made his name complaining about electronic snooping by the ECHELON system, is now basing his book on stolen electronic communications……. Tosser.
November 21st, 2006 at 7:54 pm
All this issue does is highlight the links between Labour, NZ First, and Nicky Hagar.
Western intelligence networks will be soooooo impressed.
November 21st, 2006 at 7:57 pm
God, you guys are a fricking riot.
Dad4justice won’t vote Labour because of TEH GAY!!!! Yet he defends Brash, (who has made a mockery of four sets of marriage vows despite his professed repect for the institution).
Fletch thinks it would be neat if it was all reversed and someone (anyone?) could please write a book saying “Labour did it tooo nya nya na nya nya”. It would be neat if we could find something to put it the book. Maybe the exclusive brethren could help, ’cause they fricken rock and have heaps of credibility and middle new Zealand trust them. That would be so sweet, oh man.
The rest of it is pretty much ‘Hagar is a tosser so the documents he has are tainted by his tosser boogas and we should pretend they have no content’
The book will be out before long guys.
bwahahaha as I am told the kids say
November 21st, 2006 at 8:10 pm
And d4j, get off this thread and go find a job, you are a pathetic loser, at minimum go to your cry-baby thread and do some more whinging about the Family Court.
You are an utter embarrassment.
How many children did you scream at, intimidate, and abuse today loser?
November 21st, 2006 at 8:14 pm
What’s wrong with the EB ?, what’s the big deal ?, they’re normal, (closer to main stream NZ) compared to most Labour and Green MPs.
Get real NZ, this book and the EB rhetoric is bullshit and doesn’t deserve air time.
Our country is becoming the laughing stock of western democracy. Nicky(or is it Mickey) Hager is just another Green/Labour puppet who is prostituting himself so the Greens can get back in favour with Labour.
If this book gains any traction (as I’m sure Labour TV 1 & 3 would like) it will give a clear indication of the magnitude of corruption in this country.
Let’s see the book, I bet its not even finished … just another diversion tactic ???? Just another Hager fiction…?When’s the vote on the stadium ???
November 21st, 2006 at 8:16 pm
I would like to apologise to everybody for james. c.
James C. You are going way too far, in a particularly nasty manner. Please don’t.
November 21st, 2006 at 8:24 pm
Personal attacks are actively encouraged by d4j, although I consider my comment to be both accurate and good advice for d4j, I still apologise to kiwi_donkey and all others who may take offence. That apology does not however extend to d4j.
November 21st, 2006 at 8:27 pm
These emails have more than likely not been leaked from the National Party, but from the Labour Party or NZ First to Nicky Hager. So where did Labour get them from ???? SIS, private investigator, professional hacker ??????
Hager needs to name his source, or will this be the topic for his next book??
November 21st, 2006 at 8:29 pm
“Our country is becoming the laughing stock of western democracy”.
Evidence for this, please? From which democracies?
November 21st, 2006 at 8:34 pm
Actually, Jessie James, I would be satisfied if a major reputable news organisation confirmed the ‘whistleblower’ theory, based on (anonymous) discussions with said whistleblowers.
November 21st, 2006 at 8:46 pm
Month after month Brash continues to be reactive to issues instead of driving the National Party to a victory over the lying and corrupt Labour thugs.
When will the party realise that they cannot possibly win with this lemon in charge? What will it take for him to go???
November 21st, 2006 at 8:52 pm
America toys with us over a free trade deal, sniggering behind our backs at Winston’s pathetic attempts to charm Condy. If Labour thinks there is any possibility of a deal with the US, with the existance of our anti nuke legislation, they’re dreaming.
Aussies laugh at our Parliament and see it as nothing but a bunch of corrupt, gay, sheep shagging , transsexual, Maori lovers
Poms think we are backward, anti royalist, heathen colonials, not worth trading with. With a Prime Minister that doesn’t even know how to dress for the occasion.
November 21st, 2006 at 9:03 pm
Well,well.
I am impressed with Mrs James. Couldn’t have said it better myself!!!!!!!!!
November 21st, 2006 at 9:08 pm
I hate secrets. Let’s have the book AND the names of the so called whistle blowers. If tehy really are National insiders and truly thought they were doing God’s work they should be happy to be up front about it.
Just as Brash’s injunction indicates he has something to hide, so does the anonymity of the leakers/stealers/hackers.
November 21st, 2006 at 9:16 pm
interesting how over at right wing central..sir humphrys..they are adoptng the hand over eyes and ears stance to this impending imploding of ‘their man/men’..brash and key…
i guess they have their reasons..eh..?
jeesz..!..tuff times for righties..eh..?
bush emasculated..rummy gone..cheney going..rove going..
and now..
brash going..and key going…
poor luvvies..eh..?
if you see one..give them a hug..eh..?
they must be reeling…
this wasn’t part of their much-vaunted/planned for ‘vast rightwing conspiracy’…eh..?
wha’ happen..?
phil(whoar.co.nz)
November 21st, 2006 at 9:17 pm
Mrs James , I think simon g asked your husband for ‘evidence’ that we are a laughing stock. In rushing to produce such, you seem to forgot to cite any, and just gave as a list of assertions. This is understandable. We all often rush in to defend our loved ones.
Perhaps you could start with some evidence for the following:
“Aussies laugh at our Parliament and see it as nothing but a bunch of corrupt, gay, sheep shagging , transsexual, Maori lovers”
I am not aware of such attitudes being reported as widespread across the ditch, but I am sure you can back this up with a poll or a statement from a major political figure. Something like that. And no, anecdotes about what your cousin in woopwoop heard down the pub will not suffice, and nor will anything that is just the usual banter that we have with our tasman brothers. And what on earth is wrong with loving Maoris?
I would hate to think, Mrs James, that you are merely projecting your own feelings about our fine country onto foreigners, I would hate to think that you were so unpatriotic. Like I said, I am sure you have some actual evidence that you forgot to include in your post.
November 21st, 2006 at 9:17 pm
Mrs JJ, I asked for actual evidence of these overseas attitudes, not evidence of a fevered imagination.
A source? A media report? Anything?
How about a survey? The ones I’ve seen consistently rate NZ highly, in many areas.
So, again – evidence that we are a “laughing stock”, please.
November 21st, 2006 at 9:17 pm
Mrs James,
Which Americans snigger at us? Which Aussies see our parliament as corrupt, gay etc? Which poms think we are “heathen colonials”? (By the way, just crawl out of a time machine??)
Or are we just having a wee self-loathing, paranoid rant on behalf of your nation?
November 21st, 2006 at 9:20 pm
You think poms think we are “heathen colonials”? Ha ha classic. Get back in your time machine and piss off (please)
November 21st, 2006 at 9:26 pm
Mrs James,
I see that there has been a bit of a pile on regarding your post. If you are a National party supprter I will understand if you are feeling a little upset this evening, and I am quite prepared to drop the subject if in fact you have no evidence for your claims. We all do things we when regret under stress. I trust your husband is not too poorly and that is not the reason you responded for him.
November 21st, 2006 at 9:29 pm
Back on topic, Hager’s claims are extremely serious for National. They have spent a year persuading the media and public that Labour are corrupt and stole the elections whilst National played by the book. This has also led to serious funding repercussions for most of the other parties in Parliament.
In general their line was bought, despite some rumblings that National were not all that squeaky clean. If there is one thing the media hates it is being duped. Seems now clearer that Don Brash and other National leaders have been up to their armpits in evading electoral legislation. The fact they did not win
There are a lot of smokescreens, claims of illegally stolen emails, private life intrusions, unreliable authors, even attempting to drag Russell Brown’s good name into the discreditation process. But in the end the story to watch is National’s electoral hypocracy. They’ve been nasty and vicious but in the end even the likes Karl Rove gets done once in a while.
November 21st, 2006 at 9:32 pm
LoL! Some of you are really getting into a right lather about Nicky Hager’s “Hollow Men” book. Like me, none of you have obviously had a chance to read the book. Yet you’re all certain that civilisation as we know it will end if Joe and Jane Bloggs find out what’s in the book. The High Court will eventually read the book and unless Brash and Co’s lawyers can convince the Court that the information sourced from the emails was obtained illegally and that the information was of a personal nature (ie about Brash’s private life) then the injunction will be lifted. Let’s just calm down and wait until the High Court have made their decision.I say publish and be damned. Indeed, all this publicity generated by the injuction is making me want to rush out and order a copy of the book!
Anyway if Brash or Key’s leadership chances end up being tarnished with what’s in the book, there are always other eligible National MPs who could become leader, like for instance Katherine Rich. She’s young (in her 30′s), intelligent, attractive, has a business management background and could take the urban socially liberal female vote off Labour at the next election and also hook in some younger (ie. under 40) male voters for National too. Also she’s slagged off both the Exclusive Bretheren AND Don Brash. And think of all the positive publicity she could get NZ at the annual APEC Conferences or on overseas visits if she was PM.
November 21st, 2006 at 9:35 pm
I see that it was Meatball who initially said we are a laughing stock rather than as I implied, Jessie James,
Apologies to all.
November 21st, 2006 at 9:50 pm
Dear James C
Please take a chill pill you poor chap… maybe I could send you some of my Warfarin mate, as I would hate to see you have a stroke or lapse into another deluded state . Poor fellow…. have labour not given you the proper equipment …. that is ….. a labyrinth dirtsucker device .I will ask Timy B to send you one darling – then hopefully you will feel better .
Kind regards -d4j
November 21st, 2006 at 10:03 pm
Poor, poor National Party fans.
Meltdown, utter meltdown
November 21st, 2006 at 10:09 pm
How tainted will Key be? That is the million dollar question, attacking Brash is no longer the same as attacking National.
November 21st, 2006 at 10:16 pm
Nicky Hagar is a nutter – pure and simple.
November 21st, 2006 at 10:17 pm
Sonic have you not rung Sandra about Peter in the park ? James please go to sleep .
November 21st, 2006 at 10:25 pm
“Nicky Hagar is a nutter – pure and simple”
Good stuff Toby, and interesting if true, but what does that have to do with Don’s emails, the content of which are about to be revealed?
I guess there is a connection other than:
“Hagar is a nutter, so the documents he has are tainted by his nutter boogas, and we should pretend they have no content’
…but you just forgot o mention it.
November 21st, 2006 at 10:32 pm
“Nicky Hagar is a nutter – pure and simple”
Good stuff Toby, and interesting if true, but what does that have to do with Don’s emails, the content of which are about to be revealed?
I guess there is a connection other than:
“Hagar is a nutter, so the documents he has are tainted by his nutter boogas, and we should pretend they have no content’
…but you just forgot to mention it.
I see dad4j is still going on about TEH GAY !!! OOGA BOOGA TEH GAY!!! OUGHTA BE ILLEGAL!!!
God I wish he could just go back to scribbling it in crayon and leaving it at the bustops like all the other tragics.
The next time someone who can speak without spitting tells me they vote Nat I’m gonna send them over here to see what freaks they are associating themselves with.
No offense to the rational intended, or to David whose posts I often agree with.
But Jesus this is a sewer.
November 21st, 2006 at 10:36 pm
Sonic, rather late for you matey!
You’re right to express concern for the poor old national fans. More correctly poor old democracy.
If the dirt turns out to be fan-blown, sticky and smelly then thinking voters have an awful choice: “Which is the least ethically depraved party? Ok, I’ll vote for them”
Of course most labour voters won’t recognize that the rest of us have such a choice. Sonic, I include you this latter group – you can spell.
November 21st, 2006 at 10:36 pm
TNT X 5 million springs to mind.
aladin
November 21st, 2006 at 10:37 pm
Jesus didn’t go around the park but Peter often went to the toilet that’s connected to the sewer.
November 21st, 2006 at 10:39 pm
I agree with emailsagogo. Even if the book reveals nothing scandalous the damage to National has already been done.
Now, before it becomes public is time for Key to make his move.
November 21st, 2006 at 10:45 pm
Jesus and Peter has something in common eh ? They both know Paul.
November 21st, 2006 at 11:41 pm
When will they resign?
November 21st, 2006 at 11:57 pm
David Farrar: “Who knows I may even feature in it (most unlikely though).”
Most? Try, completely. The board is set, the pieces are in motion
Sit back and enjoy the slide
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:41 am
Ahhhh………….the forever hapless Mr Brash
Never a Prime Minister…I can guarantee it.
Cull him……………..quickly – for the National Party’s sake.
Guys…I told you so well over a year ago.
But ya won’t listen.
Brash is be gone before February is over – watch
November 22nd, 2006 at 2:22 am
Reading the above comments I am not surprised you have labour supporters baying for Brash’s blood but if the shoe was on the other foot… And on the other hand you have National supporters attacking the messenger instead of the message.
I still find it unbelievable that there are still people who believe that Brash will survive this. He stuffed up big time with his injunction and comments in the weekend that he would have to resign if the emails ever went public (WHAT DOES HE HAVE TO HIDE) and then to come out today and say that he actually supports the book being published and then going on about the validity of the emails, as if National has never leaked personal information/emails when it suits them.
Don Brash is an INCOMPETENT leader and needs to go as soon as possible if National has any serious ambitions at the next election. I noticed that he has avoided denying the EB content of the emails (whereas Key still is, it is obvious that in the emails Brash will be shown to be in correpsondance with the EB or something so he isn’t going to LIE about anything that the emails will reveal).
They have handed him a rope and he is hanging himself. He LIED last year when he didn’t need to WHO CARES if National had support from the EB! But he made an massive issue about not! And has been found out (like Jenny Shipley did over that Kevin Roberts dinner). It is a sad day for the National party, because they aren’t even in power and they are going to be sunk by a scandal…
WAKE UP anyone who thinks that Don Brash will survive this, Key might, but it looks like Cullen etc are gunning for him too, expect Labour to leak the whole thing if the injunction holds too much…
Have no idea how National are going to come out unscathed from this…
November 22nd, 2006 at 4:34 am
The major risk with a lies-and-skullduggery scandal is that the public might conclude “they’re all the bloody same, lying scumbags” etc… as Marylin notes in her excellent foreword
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/sundaystartimes/0,2106,3868242a6005,00.html
the other parties just might have similar skeletons in their closets.
If so, I just hope someone does a similar number on Labour, soon. If there is material for it, then it will undoubtedly come out. Substantive material that is, not private-life stuff. That would clear the air, and there would be time for purges and blood-letting, then the dust could settle before the elections.
November 22nd, 2006 at 7:28 am
The thing that connects the dots in all these self inflicted crisies is DB’s distain and contempt for democracy and for the New Zealand people. Its already a proven FACT that DB tells easily disproved little porkies when backed into a corner, because as a colourless technocrat with an ideological conviction of his a moral obligation to lie he has no problem with doing whatever he feels it takes to seize power and enact another pro business hidden agenda.
November 22nd, 2006 at 7:33 am
toms, replace the DB with H1, leave the ‘he’ and your post would read more convincingly
November 22nd, 2006 at 7:39 am
a:
Well, yes, but I’d note something about our self-proclaimed defenders of ‘the public interest’. I note that the news divisions of our two state-owned broadcasters are what can be most politely described as ‘seriously dysfunctional industrial relations environments’ – the current industrial action at TVNZ merely the latest in a string of high profile sackings & resignations (with gagging clauses attached, naturally), employment disputes, tense pay claims and internal strife. Could there be a compelling ‘public interest’ argument for TVNZ and RNZ’s dirty laundry to be washed in public – ‘commercial sensitivity’ and employment law be damned?
And don’t think private media outlets like the Herald and TV3 are exactly models of openness and transparency either. Sauce for the goose, folks…
November 22nd, 2006 at 7:40 am
Brash is lifting the injunction:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3868478a10,00.html
November 22nd, 2006 at 7:43 am
The sensible thing now would be for Brash to resign…
but, oh no, he’ll hang on for dear life…
November 22nd, 2006 at 7:55 am
The stunningly obvious differences between the National Party, and TV3 and the Herald is that the latter are private companties, they aren’t funded by the tax-payer, we don’t pay their staffs salaries and they don’t want to be put in charge of the entire country.
As for TVNZ, their employment disputes and pratices are regularly exposed to scrutiny. Just this year the board was hauled before the privileges committee and dragged over the coals over the contents of emails released under the OIA.
November 22nd, 2006 at 8:26 am
I have sent Don Brash hundreds of emails and if Nicky weed twerp Hager has put me in his book I will use it as an accuse to track the vermin down and put his putrid head in new super strength heavy duty rat trap I have just built to catch Peter ! Oh my …. how unpc is that d4j….. you nasty violent man -it’s wonder you can’t see your kids . Yeah right…….can’t wait to catch up Nicky darling !!!!! It won’t be hard to find such Helengrad puppet . I haven’t decided whether to write a book about the greens called “Up in smoke ” or a guaranteed best seller
“Toilet adventures of a PM’s husband “.
November 22nd, 2006 at 8:29 am
“It won’t be hard to find such Helengrad puppet”
You mean the guy who almost cost her the election by springing “corngate” at the 11th hour? A string must have broken.
“I haven’t decided whether to write a book about the greens called “Up in smoke ” or a guaranteed best seller
“Toilet adventures of a PM’s husband “.”
Vermin like you can’t write.
November 22nd, 2006 at 8:35 am
That’s right Danyl, the MSM is financially and therefore ideologically detached from politics. Right? Duh!
November 22nd, 2006 at 8:41 am
I can’t help but think it interesting that Brash now wants the book published yet Brownlee is all over the radio screaming that Hagar has no credibility and the book is a piece of fiction.
Hhmm.
November 22nd, 2006 at 8:43 am
Andrew L – I can’t remember corngate as I must have been in a lock up at the time, however does your post mean you like the book about the greens or the reds? I know what book will feature on the front pages of the likes of the New York Times etc…eh matey ?
November 22nd, 2006 at 8:45 am
It must be very frustrating to hallucinate entire paragraphs when you’re trying to read something. How do you do your taxes?
November 22nd, 2006 at 8:50 am
Adolf has corrected me. He wants the book published but he won’t remove the injunction, so we still have to wait until at least “lunchtime”.
November 22nd, 2006 at 8:52 am
Andrew L – cat got your tongue matey? Merry Christmas my friend -lol.
November 22nd, 2006 at 9:03 am
“Andrew L – cat got your tongue matey? Merry Christmas my friend -lol.”
Pardon? Oh, I see, no, work has my time.
I’m sure someone more knowledgable than me can explain the “corngate” reference, but my point was that Hagar’s behaviour at the time somewhat makes a mockery of your assertion that he is a
Helengrad puppet. There would be no love lost between the two I’m sure.
meanwhile, while Hagar adamantly claims that there is nothing in his book covering personal allegations against Brash, here you are making very witless comments about sexual proclivities.
So. Maybe I’m a little harsh in judging you vermin, but if it quacks it must be a duck right? If it romps in the sewers it must be a rat?
Either that or you’re a pre-adolescent schoolboy.
November 22nd, 2006 at 9:07 am
Danyl, you do duck and dodge don’t you? Your assertion was that a National is not open and honest and should be because it’s publicly funded, while the media don’t need to be because they are not similarly funded. That logic that needs scrutiny, however when asked for such you attempt (rather poorly) to insult me. Still, it’s entertaining, but not particularly enlightening, to read your responses. Please keep posting.
November 22nd, 2006 at 9:15 am
“Your assertion was that a National is not open and honest and should be because it’s publicly funded, while the media don’t need to be because they are not similarly funded.”
Well some media ARE publicly funded.
however, is it too much to ask that our politicians are open & honest? It seems these days we happily accept that they are not.
I’d be happy for all parties’ inner workings to be exposed to public scrutiny (although I realise there is as much chance of this happening as dad4justice posting something intelligent).
November 22nd, 2006 at 9:30 am
Was that my assertion? Let’s look at what I wrote:
The stunningly obvious differences between the National Party, and TV3 and the Herald is that the latter are private companties, they aren’t funded by the tax-payer, we don’t pay their staffs salaries and they don’t want to be put in charge of the entire country.
To which you responded:
Here’s a link you might find useful in future life. Good luck:
http://teachers.net/mentors/remedial_reading/
November 22nd, 2006 at 9:34 am
AndrewL, No it’s not too much to ask that our politicians are honest. In fact it’s essential that we demand this of them.
The problem is when lack of openness is assumed to mean dishonesty. The two are not related. For example, my assertion that my male member is by all accounts quite normal in dimension and function is not invalidated by the fact that I refuse to parade down Queen St tackle out.
We all know that the truth & honesty can be twisted and used as weapons. When the unions support labour there’s no hint or policy buying, but when the EB’s approach national there’s subversive political influence happening. Right? Both views are quite probably twisted but both will be used against the other party. All very destructive. The result is lack of openness leading suspicion, leading to assumed dishonesty, leading to, um, well, were we are today.
November 22nd, 2006 at 9:37 am
Isn’t it time d4j was banned again – who else can lower the tone of debate with such alarming effectiveness…
November 22nd, 2006 at 9:45 am
Why isn’t the finger being pointed to Brash’s advisers and so-called key strategists? People like McCully (who has been behind the last four FAILED National Party campaigns and whose excuse has always been “they didn’t listen to my advice!” or his completely useless crop of media advisers.
Having Gerry Brownlee as your minder is another ticket to disaster. He can’t seem to get a smile off his face at seeing his ‘leader’ on the ropes once again.
Roll on the National Party caucus piss-up. Should be all on then.
November 22nd, 2006 at 9:48 am
Sorry Sam – but I must correct you – as I have not been banned from this forum before. We don’t like d4j as he a dumb unpc naughty person – so lets throw our pink hand bags at him -lol.
November 22nd, 2006 at 9:58 am
Daryl McLauchlan wrote:
The stunningly obvious differences between the National Party, and TV3 and the Herald is that the latter are private companties, they aren’t funded by the tax-payer, we don’t pay their staffs salaries and they don’t want to be put in charge of the entire country.
Um, Daryl, it’s the old hypocrisy question isn’t it – I’d argue there’s a very clear ‘public interest’ argument in exposing whether media outlets that by their very nature seek to influence public opinion meet the same standards of integrity and transparency they demand of others in corporate and public life. But when media outlets — both private and publicly-owned — have their own conduct put under the spotlight a rather different standard comes into play, as any number of corporate lawyers and spin doctors will tell you.
The Fourth Estate can’t have it both ways, but that doesn’t stop them from trying. Let’s just see whether the likes of APN, Fairfax and Canwest are quite so *ahem* high-minded when their own (alleged) dirty laundry ends up in the public domain. After all, they could hardly run off to the courts for an injunction to prevent publication could they?
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:02 am
Danyl, your rebuttals would be more effective if you didn’t supplement your posts with attempted insults on intelligence of the person you are engaging with. Does your personal brand no good you know. Still, I have broad shoulders.
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:03 am
“Why isn’t the finger being pointed to Brash’s advisers and so-called key strategists? People like McCully…[h]aving Gerry Brownlee as your minder is another ticket to disaster…”.
In my view, never a truer word spoken.
But JD, why do you refer to them as advisers to Brash. It seems to me they might be advising people, but I don’t think it’s Brash.
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:04 am
Why don’t you self righteous bloggers stop slamming d4j and actually read his post.
If you can sift through his anger, what he writes makes alot of sense.
At least he can see what is really happening in this sad sorry excuse for democracy!!!!!!!
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:17 am
Peanut, have we met on another forum?
let’s take a quick look at the sense from D4J.
“Kent are you watching John sorry helengrad please forgive me Campbell cry on TV 3 and that silly twerp Hager .He said politicans should tell the truth -lol where is Taito ,what a bunch of pc limp dicks. I am unhappy about the labour party as I saw the prime ministers husband go to the bog with paul !!!! bring it on you scumbags !!!
Kent ask sandra why she had to cover it all up !!!!
Dear James C
Please take a chill pill you poor chap… maybe I could send you some of my Warfarin mate, as I would hate to see you have a stroke or lapse into another deluded state . Poor fellow…. have labour not given you the proper equipment …. that is ….. a labyrinth dirtsucker device .I will ask Timy B to send you one darling – then hopefully you will feel better .
Kind regards -d4j
Sonic have you not rung Sandra about Peter in the park ? James please go to sleep
Jesus didn’t go around the park but Peter often went to the toilet that’s connected to the sewer.
Jesus and Peter has something in common eh ? They both know Paul.
I have sent Don Brash hundreds of emails and if Nicky weed twerp Hager has put me in his book I will use it as an accuse to track the vermin down and put his putrid head in new super strength heavy duty rat trap I have just built to catch Peter ! Oh my …. how unpc is that d4j….. you nasty violent man -it’s wonder you can’t see your kids . Yeah right…….can’t wait to catch up Nicky darling !!!!! It won’t be hard to find such Helengrad puppet . I haven’t decided whether to write a book about the greens called “Up in smoke ” or a guaranteed best seller
“Toilet adventures of a PM’s husband “.”
Um… Peanut, which bit made sense to you? Which bit clarifies what’s happening in this democracy? Which oddly sounds like something Marilyn Waring said in her foreword.
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:24 am
Andrew, I said read past his anger and ALOT not ALL of what he says makes sense, you jerk.
And no,I haven’t read MWs foreward.
All my own work,thanx.
If you are that naive to think we actually have a democratic system,I feel sorry for you.
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:32 am
This is about a man promoting a book for profit.
That’s all.
The left keep pointing the finger at Brash and calling him a liar and a hypocrite, but we’re still waiting for the proof. They’ve had those emails for years now and just sat on them – suddenly they’re “incriminating”?! Bullshit!
Like Brash I want to see the book released. Hagar the horrible should just STFU and release it.
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:47 am
Andrew,you said, “that the unions support Labour there’s no hint of policy buying”
That is a very emphatic statement to make.Are you very sure of your facts?
Many of Labour’s policies are driven by the unions as they are the foundation of the party.
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:53 am
“Andrew, I said read past his anger and ALOT not ALL of what he says makes sense, you jerk.”
Peabrain, I just cut & pasted everything he said in this thread, except for the bit where he taunted me. If there is anything in there making sense, please feel free to point it out as I politely offered.
“you jerk.”
Thank you for your considered and mature reply.
“If you are that naive to think we actually have a democratic system,I feel sorry for you.”
Who were you calling self righteous? Look, we do have a democratic system, it may not be working as well as it should. And that is pretty much what Nicky Hager purports to cover in his book, and it is very much what Marilyn Waring said in her foreword to it.
So what is riling you? The fact that some of us object to a ranting homophobic bigot? He’s not “un PC” whatever that means, he’s offensive. There is a difference that doesn’t require getting up upon a high horse to recognise.
However, I don’t think he should be banned, I think he can take a few on the chin as well as he gives.
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:54 am
Andrew L – you check our how Sandra got her job and I suggest you will understand what I am saying . I will comment NO further as quite frankly it’s to fucking dangerous to speak about it .Go find the connection between a certain employee at the Christchurch School of Medicine and the appointment a senior ranking public official .I think I will just shut up on the issue. End of story . Shit cop cars are parked up outside??? Is this any indication matey eh ? Got to go and speak to the law matey ? Got to change me underpants first .Have a good day -bye bye .
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:59 am
How clever of Hagar to arrange for Dr Brash to take out his injunction.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:02 am
Andrew, you have a good point re our democratic system, and it’s just not working as well as it should.
But how far down the track of “not working as well as it should” does it become a police or communist state?
Perhaps all the slamming of d4j is to discredit the dirt he has on this corrupt govt?
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:03 am
D4J, back off on the warfarin, your brain flatulence is starting to stink.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:07 am
Peabrain????
Thanx for your considered and mature remark!!!!
Self righteous,yes you have just proved my point.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:12 am
Blair: “The left keep pointing the finger at Brash and calling him a liar and a hypocrite, but we’re still waiting for the proof…”
I want to see the book released. Hagar the horrible should just STFU and release it.”
We are still waiting for the proof because your dear leader had an injunction slapped on it.
If you want to see it so badly why not start another vastly successful online petition! – or perhaps a real one even, incidently hows that going?
Much harder to do a grown up one isnt it!
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:18 am
“Andrew L – you check our how Sandra got her job and I suggest you will understand what I am saying ”
Um… who is Sandra? And what does she have to do with Nicky Hager’s book & Brash’s emails?That would be a good start to my understanding.
“Peabrain????
Thanx for your considered and mature remark!!!!
Self righteous,yes you have just proved my point. ”
Well Peanut, since you called me a jerk for politely responding to your post… and since you’ve demonstrated that you’re more proficient with insult than actually making a point, I guess I have proven something.
Now tell me again, because I appear to have missed it, where is even one sensible thing d4j has said?
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:21 am
Andrew L – You can stand me up at the gates of hell but I won’t back down . The cops just wanted to know who recently poisoned my friendly 10 year old bull mastiff as the vet must have said something ? They were friendly -especially the Detective Senior Sergeant from Southern CIB who gave me his card and said “any problems ring me OK “. I said ” Thanks mate .”
WOW whats going on here ????? -hells bells ??? Fyi – I will stand my ground and I won’t back down .Go Tom -good old Radio Hauraki.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:21 am
Heh heh. “Peabrain” was a cheap shot I admit, too cheap to pass on I’m afraid.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:23 am
Fan forgets that the left have had these emails for ages and done nothing with them. Well there’s a reason for that – they’re more useful unreleased than released. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain…
The 47000 people who signed my very real petition disagree with you Fan.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:28 am
Andrew L – you want his CIB email address matey ?????…………. just to check whether I am sensible or not .
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:33 am
“Andrew L – you want his CIB email address matey ?????…………. just to check whether I am sensible or not .”
Would I believe a policeman?
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:34 am
Come on Andrew L you want to play with fire darling you will just get burnt .
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:47 am
For once in your life Dad4J is there any chance you could knock it off?
As I said before you are doing yourself and your cause no favours by acting as you are.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:51 am
What cause is that sonic? – be a citizen in a corrupt country ? Enjoy watching my son’s getting the hell outta of feminaziland ? Get a life – time for mud to get thrown in both directions darling.Stuff you I am going to mow my lawns .
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:53 am
You’re right.
I’m sorry. I’m an ass.
November 22nd, 2006 at 11:56 am
Someone has posted the above ? This is not me ? This is not fair what the hell. I did not say “You’re right.I’m Sorry.I an ass.”
How the hell did they do that ?
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:02 pm
How can a post come under dad4justice -do they have my password ? Please I am not fully computer learned…….. can someone explain this please?This is most upsetting ..is there anything I can do ?
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:04 pm
“time for mud to get thrown in both directions darling”
OK – Rejoice peanut, I have found something I think makes sense. Sadly most will not agree – but if our democracy IS in such a state of disarray, then it would surely be strengthened by a complete clearing of the decks, air ALL the dirty laundry, show the politicians what we expect of them & what the repercussions are for disappointing us.
Plus, it’d probably be hugely entertaining.
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:08 pm
d4j – anyone can post as anyone else, you just have to change the name. No password involved.
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:08 pm
Attention David Farrar someone is posting under the name of dad4justice .
How could this happen!!!!??????…… – please assist before I start making phone calls .
Thank you – I veiw this a serious breach of my right to freedom of speech .
Kind regards
Peter Burns – the real dad4justice
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:09 pm
Now please d4j, show a few more manners. Keep to the topic, and please don’t let froth from your mouth stain the keyboard.
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:13 pm
“How the hell did they do that ?”
Probably in roughly the same way as my name was put on the coup petition.
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:13 pm
Come Peter B you want to play with fire darling you will just get burnt.
Now you’ve got God angry!
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:15 pm
God – the post at 11:53
“You’re right.
I’m sorry. I’m an ass.”
I did post that and both names are dad4justice?
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:17 pm
“Probably in roughly the same way as my name was put on the coup petition.”
Mine too.
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:18 pm
God the post at 11:53
” You’re right.
I’m sorry. I’m an ass.”
I DID NOT POST THIS however the name dad4justice is the same ?
Thats it .
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:24 pm
It just proves my point about government corruption. Bugger this .
November 22nd, 2006 at 12:39 pm
I have sent Don Brash hundreds of emails and if Nicky weed twerp Hager has put me in his book …
D4J, do you honestly believe you are that important?
By the way, you don’t have to feel this way. It is possible to lead a reasonably comntented life, if you want to.
November 22nd, 2006 at 1:14 pm
“D4J, do you honestly believe you are that important?”
Maybe he is? Maybe he’s Murray McCully & not Peter Burns at all.
November 22nd, 2006 at 1:28 pm
I regret to say i will not be able to continue with this conversation as i have to go down the park to do my shift with the binoculars to see who is going in and out of the public tiolets and how long they are staying in there. This is very important work in the public interest and I hope that you slaggers realise that I don’t even get paid for it.
November 22nd, 2006 at 1:30 pm
“I hope that you slaggers realise that I don’t even get paid for it.”
Bugger (pun intended) oh well, you might get lucky & catch someone famous! Then you could…
wait, don’t want to put ideas into your head.
November 22nd, 2006 at 1:33 pm
Ah, there’s nothing that I enjoy more than foaming zealotry.
November 22nd, 2006 at 2:01 pm
right. Now he’s gone we can get down to business….
November 22nd, 2006 at 2:11 pm
You low life – would the real dad4justice please stand up as this world is not big enough for two !!! You creep !!!
November 22nd, 2006 at 2:12 pm
“Ah, there’s nothing that I enjoy more than foaming zealotry.”
So would you like a cigarette now? I wonder if you “enjoy” the foaming zealotry shown by sonic and co when Helen is squirming over her pledge card debacle, you smug tosser.
November 22nd, 2006 at 2:18 pm
dad4justice is a dirty low life kid fucker and he loves Helen Clark !!!
November 22nd, 2006 at 2:26 pm
Happy Chappy
I was referring to the rabid wanderings of the real/surreal dad4justice. Nothing more. Nothing less.
November 22nd, 2006 at 2:28 pm
Happy Chappy
I was referring to the rabid wanderings of the real/surreal dad4justice. Nothing more. Nothing less.
November 22nd, 2006 at 2:51 pm
James… pays not to stir up the zealots.
And now I fear there are at least 3 dad4justices posting… one was more than enough
November 22nd, 2006 at 3:07 pm
This site is full of sickos.Shows how anarchy is affecting the people.
You can’t even blog without someone stealing your signature!!!!!!!!
November 22nd, 2006 at 3:27 pm
whatever came of DPF’s moderation experiment, eh?
November 22nd, 2006 at 3:31 pm
“You can’t even blog without someone stealing your signature!!!!!!!!”
It’s always been so. DPF can see which IP addresses comments came from & presumably will if any comment is offensive. Although to be frank, I can’t see anyone getting more so than the original. If you get my drift.
At first I thought the d4j post owning to being a peeping tom hanging around public toilets was real… now I’m not so sure.
And now I don’t care.
November 22nd, 2006 at 3:32 pm
the poedophlie has gone away
congratulations.
you are the first person in the history of the internet to mis-spell “paedophile” that badly.
November 22nd, 2006 at 4:11 pm
Can someone please confirm if(Tim)Russell Brown is the brother of Brendan Brown QC for DB?
November 22nd, 2006 at 4:17 pm
To the person posting from Xtra IP Address as 219.89.128.103 using the alias Dad4Justice:
I have deleted your defamatory posts. You are banned from this blog until 2007. If you post here again I will complain to your ISP.
Also you have been using the alias of another commenter, to deliberately cause confusion. This is also unacceptable.
Finally do not use my blog to fight your personal battles.
November 22nd, 2006 at 4:20 pm
James: fair enough if that was the case, although I don’t find D4J’s enjoyable or amusing, I feel sorry for the guy.
November 22nd, 2006 at 4:30 pm
Appreciated, Happy Chappy. And I tend to agree with you. Flip comment notwithstanding. It was a way of saying something – anything – without engaging in an argument that was never going to be won.
November 22nd, 2006 at 4:35 pm
Er… David, you haven’t by any chance just banned the real d4j have you?
November 22nd, 2006 at 4:36 pm
Jamie said: you are the first person in the history of the internet to mis-spell “paedophile” that badly.
That’s your third post this thread where you’ve taken it upon yourself to correct someone’s spelling.
Correcting spelling on the Internet is like running in the special olympics, at the end of the day you’re still a retard.
November 22nd, 2006 at 4:56 pm
On the lighter side of things I am auctioning an empty whisky bottle similar to the one Don Brash would have emptied last night…
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Antiques-collectables/Alcohol-related/Spirits-related/Whiskey/auction-78682983.htm
I expect to get some serious stick for doing this
but you have to have a sense of humour…
I am blogging about this auction too:
http://deadkiwis.blogspot.com
November 22nd, 2006 at 9:25 pm
Er top shot Nick.I being a chardonnay socialist have been forced to go out and buy a case of Moet to celebrate the latest Nazional party implosion.,I expect to sober up by at least next sunday,buuuuurp.I will post again soon.Cheers.
November 23rd, 2006 at 10:19 am
Correcting spelling on the Internet is like running in the special olympics, at the end of the day you’re still a retard.
ahahaaha! I thought (and Google seems to agree) that the phrase was ‘arguing on the internet…‘ – something we all seem to be doing here, making anyone involved with this argument … err, well, you can figure it out.
besides, after the ‘no no no no no no’ NCEA txting thread, I thought people might like the odd correction here and there. have to keep up our standards, don’t we?
November 24th, 2006 at 6:52 pm
“toms:
Get a fucking job. When Don Brash leads National to a whalloping victory over you pinko socialists at the next election, you’ll have to get off your arse and work.”
Nice assumption chump, where will who be when?
May 11th, 2007 at 9:21 pm
The above remarks look pretty pathetic dont they. More like the stuff written on lavatory walls
May 31st, 2007 at 7:01 pm
free downloads t mobile ringtones
http://idisk.mac.com/ringtonesforyou/Public/index.html
June 4th, 2008 at 10:48 am
I suspect DPF is going to be the only one to see this comment, but do you think Hager has been vindicated by Brash’s response in this interview?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sundaystartimes/4565928a6619.html
—-
But surely this “hiding” Brash speaks of goes to the very heart of Nicky Hager’s claims in his book The Hollow Men. Drawing on sheafs of leaked National Party emails, Hager’s book exposed the realities of modern political branding, documenting the cynical reshaping of a controversial candidate into a vote-winning product. Hager argued that the price Brash and National paid for their expedience was they became hollow men, unsure what they stood for, empty at the core.
Brash barks in annoyance. The book, he says “was at least an honest attack”.
—-
I don’t see how Brash could consider it “an honest attack” unless Hager’s sources were credible.