School Standards
Caught up with an old friend last week, and amongst the many topics of discussion, schools came up.
He has three kids, two already at public primary schools, and one reaching school age next year. Reluctantly all three kids will be going to private schools next year which is going to cost a horrendous amount of money. Obviously they can afford to do it, but it will not be at all painless as they have just one income and a huge mortgage etc.
I was interested as to why they were swapping, as the local primary school is so much closer by, and 1/20th the cost. It seems he is just unable to get any meaningful feedback from them as to how the kids are doing. He gets told the class as a whole is doing well, how his children work well with others, how they don’t like to focus on the individual when reporting results as that creates winners and losers etc. After months of trying to get more meaningful information (such as Child A excels in these subjects but needs to work harder at these) they have made the very costly decision to go to a school where they can get such information.
As he was telling me this, I was doing mental calculations in my head along the lines of 3 kids x $10K a year x 12 years = $360,000 and thinking of all the other things one could do with that much money 
January 7th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
“Reluctantly”?
The elites know something Dave doesn’t.
Letting the plebs educate your kids means the kids turn out like the plebs that “teach” them.
Avoid it like the plague.
January 7th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
Having children is an expensive hobby.
It’s not even just a case of what subjects kids have to work harder on but whether or not they are suited to particular subjects/acadmic pursuits. Failure is an important part of knowing where one’s strengths – and successes – lie.
An anecdote that reflects concerns many of us have.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
Imagine how much easier it would be for them under a voucher system
January 7th, 2007 at 7:04 pm
Don’t forget they are still paying for their kids to go to public school through taxes as well. Thats the most ridiculous part of it.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:51 pm
At the end of the day it’s only money. Plenty more of it out there.
Nick
January 7th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Can’t comment on the schools that your friend’s children attend – but I have been delighted with my son’s (state) school. Plenty of feedback, focussed, competent teachers, friendly atmosphere, focus on my child’s strengths (and weaknesses). Personally, I think a good principal is the key – not how many thousands of dollars you pay in fees.
January 7th, 2007 at 9:57 pm
Sharon
I agree entirely. The school my children attend sounds similar to the one you speak of.
However, it is well understood by the parents and teachers that a good Principal makes a massive difference yet in the state system there is a set rate of pay for Principals. Go figure ?
The zone system really works in your favour if you are prepared to work the system. All you need to do is move into the zone (actually move – intend to stay there, rent a house if you can’t afford to buy one in the area) and the school can’t refuse your children. Lovely unintended consequence of a system that was designed to stop people choosing the school they want their children to attend.
January 7th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
Our experience seems similar to Sharon & Burt’s. Becky and I have had no trouble whatsoever getting good feedback, both formal *and* informal from the teachers at our daughter’s state school.
Rather than some sort of PC conspiracy, perhaps a lack of feedback merely (?) reflects on teacher competence?
January 7th, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Your mate had better be careful of what he wishes for. Refer to the latest socialist brainwave from the UK:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2530464,00.html
January 8th, 2007 at 1:21 am
Of course under the democratic system of school governance (endorsed by both Labour and National) parents who are unhappy with the approach their school is taking to student achievement can get involved – via the Board of Trustees. It’s easy to label this sort of thing ‘PC madness’ and blame the govt of the day (be it Labour or National), but short of sacking the BOT, what should the govt do about it? Our system relies on parents setting the direction of their local schools, but they need to get involved to make it work.
January 8th, 2007 at 1:30 am
Of course under the democratic system of school governance (endorsed by both Labour and National) parents who are unhappy with the approach their school is taking to student achievement can get involved – via the Board of Trustees. It’s easy to label this sort of thing ‘PC madness’ and blame the govt of the day (be it Labour or National), but short of sacking the BOT, what should the govt do about it? Our system relies on parents setting the direction of their local schools, but they need to get involved to make it work.
January 8th, 2007 at 3:28 am
Another classic case of middle class white over-reaction.
Election of sending kids to private schools is not necessarily a failure of the state system but failure of parents to realise that the world does not revolve around their child and the child should simply adapt to their surrounding rather than teachers and schools and the system tailor for the individual pupil.
I am a proponent not so much of public schools than I think private schools are for most children an unnecessary waste of money.
Private schools do wonders for under-achieving children, children who are easily influenced by “bad” students (ie. comparatively exciting children from underprivileged backgrounds) and network social climbing parents who are scared their child is not good enough to succeed without a “school tie”.
For everyone else…..waste of time and I am proud to say as a badge of honour that I did not need to attend one.
Parents are better off to save that money and spend it where we all end up anyway – at University.
January 8th, 2007 at 3:46 am
Well there’s the answer then…thanks Kate.
January 8th, 2007 at 6:54 am
“Parents are better off to save that money and spend it where we all end up anyway – at University.”
Exactly, what you learn at school is rubbish (bar writing, reading and ‘rithmatic)compared to the paradigm shift in learning when you get to Uni (ie self reliance)
The best habits a child can learn are from their parents, if they fail, then no amount of $$$ can make up for a good enviroment.
January 8th, 2007 at 7:05 am
A couple of my friends are teachers – they seem to spend several hundred hours a year giving parents feedback about their kids in the form of marking their work, writing reports, attending parent-teacher conferences ect. Maybe your friend should just try another school before shelling out a couple 100 K on private tuition.
January 8th, 2007 at 7:19 am
Ah – I came here to write pretty much what Danyl did, but fuck it I’m going to write it anyway. DPF, if your friends have a bad experience at a private company, do they draw the conclusion that private enterprise is crap and they’d better try and find some public service they can use? If not, why do they imagine it works in reverse? If they’re not happy with their kids’ public school, they should swap to a different one and save themselves a pile of cash.
Kate summed up the benefits of private schools perfectly.
January 8th, 2007 at 8:45 am
What decile school was it?
January 8th, 2007 at 8:55 am
These are parents who obviously want their kids to grow up with no feelings and emotions whatsoever, if you have ever watched the documentary Painted Babies it’s about parents who push their children to the point where all they think about is being the best and never being able to experience basic child rights such as the right to have fun and not be pressured to the point of losing their innocence.
If the Right truly cared about making society a better place they would put the thousands they spend on private schools into charities where much more would be done rather than their own selfish interests.
January 8th, 2007 at 9:18 am
Had to laugh at this
“Don’t forget they are still paying for their kids to go to public school through taxes as well. Thats the most ridiculous part of it.”
To think that the 75% of the population who currently dont have school age children are paying for someone elses children, quelle horreur. There should be something done about it.
I mean the taxpayers pay for the 75% of university tuition costs , ” whethr you use it or not”
January 8th, 2007 at 9:36 am
Maybe National should start thinking about school vouchers. A big reason I’m voting ACT. But with the new socialist national I’m not sure if they even know the meaning of “voucher”. But perhaps you as the last sometimes liberal in National can write a bit about such a thing here.
After all, wouldn’t it be nice if not only the rich but also the poor could choose?
January 8th, 2007 at 9:39 am
Did I just see Cactus Kate giving advice to parents? Quelle horreur!
January 8th, 2007 at 9:54 am
Interesting extrapolation Johnathan…so it’s only the right that spend their money selfishly and unwisely?
January 8th, 2007 at 10:02 am
The current school is a decile 10 school.
January 8th, 2007 at 11:18 am
Renting/buying in a decile 10 school zone is not cheap but it still beats paying private school fees.
Work the system folks. Move into the zone for the school you want to send your children to.
January 8th, 2007 at 11:49 am
DPF, would you be prepared to email me the name of the school?
I am interested in this and would like to see what ERO said about the school in its last report.
Is it in the Wgtn area?
What you friend has stated about individual performance not being reported is most unusual, though there is a pretty dominant view of team play in more corporate activities.
January 8th, 2007 at 11:58 am
I don’t believe it is the decile rating of the school that counts as many schools with low decile ratings have very caring, and communicative teachers. My children attended a decile 9 state school for a while and I was reasonably happy with the feedback I received. One thing I realised though was the standards of the state school were mediocre and in fact one teacher confessed that the year 5 class she was teaching were working above the national average, but well below the children in the private school down the road, and bright children were constantly drifting at the pace of the rest of the rather large class of 35 and I wanted my children in much smaller classes than that.
I made a concsious decision to spend money on my children’s education in the same way as I do on private health, and legal fees so that I could give them every opportunity to exceed the standards set by the government these days which encourages mediocre as the highest standard we should obtain.
One thing I had noticed in the state system after 5 years was the sharp decline in manners, and moral standards such as honesty, and ethics amongst many of the families.
I am happy with my choice to move, my children are all in extension programmes and have all got spines and backbones something not encouraged by the Labour governments state system which squashes tall poppies. I want strong minded sons and daughters who I know will never become bludgers off the system or develop the dangerous ‘victim’ mentality and self centred poor me attitude that the feminist and pc leaders in this country seem to be encouraging where instead of taking responsibility for forging ones future it seems it is more important to walk all over others and cling to the past rather than grow up, and suceed on your own.
I will pay whatever it takes at university time and am more than happy to pay taxes towards state schools as I realise there are many others who do not have the luxury that I have of choosing where my children will be educated. My children’s future success is well worth the financial sacrifice.
January 8th, 2007 at 12:07 pm
Does private schooling increase your strength, improve your health and lengthen your life as well, Paula?
January 8th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Yes, in all probability it does as studies have already proven the richer you are the better standard of health care you can afford and figures unfortunately show that the life expectancy for the rich and well educated is considerably hgiher than for the rest of society. You may get lucky and be born with a silver spoon in your mouth, but if not you have to get off your backside and work hard for your dough.
January 8th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
In my experience, most of the ’silver spoon’ set have been educated in private schools, have spent very little time dealing with those from other cultures or who are less fortunate than themselves, and it is they who do the walking all over other people.
January 8th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
My experience is that spending money on private primary education is pointless unless you live in a low decile area. After that each child should be considered on their merits and aptitudes. I have a son doing well in a state senior school; a daughter in a private girls school and my wife and I are undecided about our third child .. but we have 18 months to watch her and decide then.
Re: NCEA: for maths and science it is fine, excellent in fact. For arts subjects I am doubtful it offers the benefits of Cambridge. IB is OK only if the child can perform strongly in languages, Cambridge is better overall I think.
Wealthy people live longer because they drink and smoke less and take up less hazardous pursuits and occupations.
January 8th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
I agree that decile doesn’t/shouldn’t matter. I came from a middle class family but went to a lower decile school, something for which I’m forever grateful. I’m now tertiary qualified to postgrad level and have a well paying job. Academically going to a lower decile school didn’t do me any harm, and socially it was great for me. It has given me a far greater understanding of some of the challenges other kids from poorer families had to deal with, and a greater understanding of cultures different to my own. My teachers were some of the most inspiring people I have met in my life, and given what they had to deal with some days they deserve nothing but our highest admiration. Once again, if people have issues with the local state school, get involved!
January 8th, 2007 at 1:59 pm
I was just waiting for the likes of someone like Red Devil to start up the Tall Poppy Syndrome bashing against Private schools.
No doubt Red Devil is aghast at anyone making broad, stereotypical, statements about the Lefty Holy Trinity – gays, racial minorities and wimmin, plus any disputing Trade Unions, Beneficiaries, GE or climate change, is also seen as intolerant, ignorant bigots, who no doubt base their assumptions on Talkback radio and the womens’ magazines.
But making meaningless jibes against Private schools is a worthy and righteous crusade to purge the land of those refusenik rebels who will not conform to the will of the State.
Yes, I went to a Private School, and am aware of a small but visible element of bad behaviour from spoilt and invariably, nouveau riche, students and their equally repulsive parents. While their behaviour and attitudes are bloody annoying, I bet they hardly figure in crime, justice, health and social welfare stats. In other words as long they aren’t bothering me as a taxpayer and causing deliberate misery to others, then they have every right to carry on with their lives.
I had no ideological problem sending my kids to a State school, but we gave up after a few years and have sent them Private. Yes it means we take longer to pay off the mortgage, we have less for superannuation, we dont don’t have fancy overseas holidays etc. But the difference is just enormous – we get lots of feedback, are made fully aware of their academic and personal profiles, we appreciate the motivation and energy to strive, self-reliance and the non PC victimhood, we like the ethics and the open talk of comparitive religion – something which is just about verboten in the State system.
We are from a religious and ethnic minority and in my son’s class of 24 in 2006, only half were from the much derided WASP class, the ‘others’ ranged from Greek, Indian, Maori, Korean, Chinese, Jewish, Indonesian and German.
Many families speak of the struggle to pay the fees, many have second jobs or have extended their mortgage, a higher number than you imagine are from working class and/or Trade backgrounds but they are not going to be hoodwinked about Labour’s vision of mediocre education.
January 8th, 2007 at 2:13 pm
Silas – sorry my friend doesn’t want the school named, even in private.
January 9th, 2007 at 7:38 am
I went to a private school. I think its primary advantage was that I didn’t have to spend time dealing with those from other cultures, or who are less fortunate than myself. Why on earth would I need to?
January 9th, 2007 at 9:29 am
“Does private schooling increase your strength, improve your health and lengthen your life as well, Paula?”
In a lot of cases it will do, as a lot of private schools (including the one I went to) have compulsory sport. But we all know that sport and exercise makes no contribution to physical well-being and it is all the fault of multinationals that people arent healthy.
January 9th, 2007 at 9:30 am
“Does private schooling increase your strength, improve your health and lengthen your life as well, Paula?”
In a lot of cases it will do, as a lot of private schools (including the one I went to) have compulsory sport. But we all know that sport and exercise makes no contribution to physical well-being and it is all the fault of multinationals that people arent healthy.
January 9th, 2007 at 9:32 am
“Does private schooling increase your strength, improve your health and lengthen your life as well, Paula?”
In a lot of cases it will do, as a lot of private schools (including the one I went to) have compulsory sport. But we all know that sport and exercise makes no contribution to physical well-being and it is all the fault of multinationals that people arent healthy.
January 9th, 2007 at 9:33 am
“Does private schooling increase your strength, improve your health and lengthen your life as well, Paula?”
In a lot of cases it will do, as a lot of private schools (including the one I went to) have compulsory sport. But we all know that sport and exercise makes no contribution to physical well-being and it is all the fault of multinationals that people arent healthy.
January 9th, 2007 at 9:46 am
apologies for the multi post. Private schooling doesnt seem to assist in blog posting!
January 9th, 2007 at 10:09 am
Just as an aside the private school my children attand has four seperate schools within it and one is an international college.
I have a child in the kapa haka, and one learning three languages including spanish. Also plus side are the trips to France, Japan, Thailand etc….. and the World Vision scholarships the school win each year for raising money in the 40 hour famine. Just before Christmas the children in the primary school worked hard and spent their own money on books to send to schools in India, and helping others and showing compassion is a large part of the values taught with their education.
In their state school there was only one child that was not of european descent and now they are at a school with more than a dozen cultures represented, often lunchtimes a variety of ethnic food is available for purchase.
So should I perhaps make a flippant judgement that high decile state schools are more sheltered than the private schools?
January 9th, 2007 at 11:19 am
I went to integrated Catholic Primary Schools in Tawa and Upper Hutt. (Shouldn’t be too hard to guess which ones they are.)
I understand the both Primary Schools I went to are so popular that non-Catholics are registering new-born babies onto waiting lists, and still not getting in under the 25% quota as even Catholic children struggle to get enrolled.
Says something about how parents are choosing the traditional values over what is being taught at State Schools .
January 9th, 2007 at 5:41 pm
Says something about how parents are choosing the traditional values over what is being taught at State Schools .
Says something about how parents are abrograting their responsibility to teach values and leaving it all up to schools.
January 9th, 2007 at 7:42 pm
Deborah – no doubt there are some parents who upon sending their little darlings to Private school believe they can bail on parental guidance. But from what I see as a Private school parent (after giving the State system a fair crack, we gave up)is that there is a growing tide of parents from every background imaginable who simply do not believe the hollow PC speak dished out by many schools and hence the boom in Private school enrolments. These parents are selfless and deeply care for the future of their kids and they have given up on the govt to provide reasonable schools that uphold intergrity, honesty, hard-work, competion and academic excellence.
My mother a teacher at a Decile One school can bitterly talk for hours of the on-going lack of parental responsibility she has been witness to for years. What is depressing for her is having young PI and Maori parents, only a few years out of school themselves, who are passing on their slacker blame-someone-else mentality on to the next generation and we are going to have to live with it as taxpayers for yet another round.
One of the deep and delighful ironies of my son attending a Christian Private school, is that it is very multi-cultural and multi-religious. Religion and by extension, culture and ethnicity, is openly spoken about and my son has a very good working knowledge of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism,Buddhism and Islam. At my son’s former State school speaking of religion, other than hallowed and indisputable Maori ’spirituality’ was strictly verboten.
What had been rewarding for my son, has been seeing other religious faiths endorse ethics and values, long dismissed as old-fashioned and irrelevant in many State schools. In a quest to be ‘ culturally sensitive’ by doing away with comparitive religion, and by extension ethics and values, many children are missing out on knowledge of the wider world.
January 9th, 2007 at 8:34 pm
Thanks for the thoughtful response, Sally.
I notice you say that your children are at a Christian school, not a Catholic one. I went through Catholic schools all the way, but it was a fair few years ago now, so I am sure the atmosphere has changed. Nevertheless, one of the ‘values’ taught at Catholic school is that woemn don’t have the right to decide about abortion. Necessarily, if Catholic schools teach Catholic doctrine, they must also teach that all other faiths are wrong.
It’s important not mix up two problems. You mention the slacker parents at the decile one school, but that’s exactly the point that I made, that ultimately, the responsibility for teaching values lies with parents.
The other problem is whether or not state schools teach values (c/f ’spirituality’). I’m quite happy with what the state school my children go to is teaching my children – curiousity, an enquiring mind, and using reason and evidence. Personally, I don’t want them getting some half-baked set of rules based on someone’s ‘values’ – rules are all very well, but the complexity of life demands a capacity to think for yourself.
Having said that, I would be delighted if the school taught comparative religion. One of the nice things about realising that many peoples have devised many different religions is that you are much more likely to realise that they are all just human constructs. And once you realise that, you should also realise that you are required to make judgements about the values they teach, not just blindly accept them. All of which reinforces the importance of curiosity, and enquiring minds, and reason and evidence.
However, my children are at a highly regarded, and deservedly so, decile 10 school, where there is very active parent involvment in the school. So I do hear what you and other people are saying about problems in public schooling.
January 9th, 2007 at 8:45 pm
Read with interest the comments of many concerned parents & others.
Everyone wants the best for their children, but there seems to be a little confusion about the best strategy to adopt.
My uncle converted his MB BS to psychiartry when his children were teenagers. He terrorized my cousins by getting each of them alone and making an issue by saying “you don’t have to live up to my expectations”.
Private schools are known hothouses for academic performance. It is known that performance of private school graduates in a university degrades quite dramatically in comparison to public school students who performed equally well at graduation.
So lets ask you some questions.
First: What is your own ambition in life? Is it valid? Did you get it from your parents? How certain are you that it is the best goal that you could have chosen?
Second: do you want to lay on your children what you have determined are their best goals, and instil your expectations (i.e. their ambitions) which they would require to achieve that goal? How certain are you that you can choose right? How certain are you that they can achieve those ambitions? The self imposed penalty for failure of parental expectations is quite high.
Third: Just what are your expectations for your children anyhow? Shouldn’t they be that each child should think for itself? choose it’s own path in life? If you start by telling it what to do, aren’t you hindering the child? Won’t your child be learning the lesson that someone else should do it’s thinking?
A parent should be nurturing, but are you really qualified to determine whether social or academic or sporting achievement should be emphasized?
Your biggest problem is that you are teaching your children the lessons that you probably do not want them to learn. Plato wrote that there was a teacher for everything except character. Character was learned without a teacher, at home. Children probably learn to lie, to cheat, bad temper and most of the other cringworthy behaviours from their own parents.
Well I haven’t said much about state schools -v- private schools have I.
In my opinion, all state schools should be closed, and credits given to the parents.
In the meantime, public schools are probably better because they are not hothouses for academic performance. Children do not get taught that unless they are top, they are a failure.
Private schools are definitely wrong if the fees are onerous, it’s better not to lay that heavy Karma on a child.
January 9th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
Read with interest the comments of many concerned parents & others.
Everyone wants the best for their children, but there seems to be a little confusion about the best strategy to adopt.
My uncle converted his MB BS to psychiartry when his children were teenagers. He terrorized my cousins by getting each of them alone and making an issue by saying “you don’t have to live up to my expectations”.
Private schools are known hothouses for academic performance. It is known that performance of private school graduates in a university degrades quite dramatically in comparison to public school students who performed equally well at graduation.
So lets ask you some questions.
First: What is your own ambition in life? Is it valid? Did you get it from your parents? How certain are you that it is the best goal that you could have chosen?
Second: do you want to lay on your children what you have determined are their best goals, and instil your expectations (i.e. their ambitions) which they would require to achieve that goal? How certain are you that you can choose right? How certain are you that they can achieve those ambitions? The self imposed penalty for failure of parental expectations is quite high.
Third: Just what are your expectations for your children anyhow? Shouldn’t they be that each child should think for itself? choose it’s own path in life? If you start by telling it what to do, aren’t you hindering the child? Won’t your child be learning the lesson that someone else should do it’s thinking?
A parent should be nurturing, but are you really qualified to determine whether social or academic or sporting achievement should be emphasized?
Your biggest problem is that you are teaching your children the lessons that you probably do not want them to learn. Plato wrote that there was a teacher for everything except character. Character was learned without a teacher, at home. Children probably learn to lie, to cheat, bad temper and most of the other cringworthy behaviours from their own parents.
Well I haven’t said much about state schools -v- private schools have I.
In my opinion, all state schools should be closed, and credits given to the parents.
In the meantime, public schools are probably better because they are not hothouses for academic performance. Children do not get taught that unless they are top, they are a failure.
Private schools are definitely wrong if the fees are onerous, it’s better not to lay that heavy Karma on a child.
January 9th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
I should have added that the school reports we got were quite informative, and for our eldest child, gave very clear information about her academic ability (rated 1 to 5, with 1 being excellent, 2 achieving well above the standard expected, 3 achieving at about the standard expected and so on) and on the effort she makes (a similar scale, but using letters). It also very clearly stated her reading age (superb!) and her ability at sports (fairly dismal).
Our younger children’s academic abilty was not rated, but we had good written commentary, which was highly appropriate, given their age.
We also found it very easy to get verbal feedback from teachers, informally as well as in the formal parent / teacher interviews (held twice a year).
So I suspect that DPF’s friend’s problem may have more to do with the particular school than the state system per se, although the preponderance of ‘poor reporting’ schools may be much higher in the state system.
May 19th, 2007 at 12:17 pm
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May 19th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
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