Islam says BDSM is okay

February 7th, 2007 at 1:17 pm by David Farrar

Hey according to the Islamic Q&A site, Allah approves of BDSM. To quote:

Q: Im a man who desires to be beaten up during sex (BDSM) is it Islamically correct to do it??

A: Every form of permissible intimacy between the husband and wife is a mutual
one with mutual understanding and agreement. If the husband and wife
mutually agree on “BDSM”, that is their choice, for which there is no
prohibition in Shariah.

So that’s Iman Panty Slut Boy to you!!

Hat Tip: Tim Blair

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94 Responses to “Islam says BDSM is okay”

  1. Rocket Boy () says:

    OK DPF what is your point here?

    Maybe, just maybe, Muslims are people to.

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  2. Fred () says:

    You got to cut its throat while its still alive…………..if that helps.

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  3. Fred () says:

    You reckon this is interesting Dave.

    You ought to see the things that the guru Iranian mullahs permit to be done to a goat as long as you sell it to the NEXT village.

    Talk about passing on infirm livestock.

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  4. sonic () says:

    Poor Fred, what an obsessed, sad little loser he is.

    Anyway David are you really still trying to give this sad little Wishart smear wings?

    Funnily enough when I was reading this post my dog leapt up as if it had heard a loud noise.

    Odd eh?

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  5. Put it away () says:

    Sonic didn’t hear the noise the dog heard because he has his fingers in his ears while saying “la la la la can’t hear you!” over and over again to avoid the risk of contact with reality.

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  6. Fred () says:

    What… is sonic saying it ain’t so …or what?

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  7. Fred () says:

    And sonic….get those Iranian rules into you…the dog has a chance of being in your will.

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  8. David Farrar () says:

    Rocket Boy – were you born without a sense of humour or did you work hard to get rid of it?

    I just find it hilarious that any religion which is so proscriptive with sexual conduct, is willing to have a senior priest give the thumbs up to BDSM.

    Would be just as funny if it was Catholic, but alas the Pope does not do Q&A on his website.

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  9. sonic () says:

    Yes thats right the evil muslims are coming to murder us all in our beds, and only Fred can save us!

    Who needs BDSM when you have him around?

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  10. Fred () says:

    Is it so or ain’t it so re the mullahs and goats, sonic?

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  11. thehawk () says:

    I wonder if those bags they wear cover
    gags and handcuffs ..

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  12. sonic () says:

    Fred, those witty comments show me that you simply must get an agent.

    Why spend the rest of your life handling yourself?

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  13. Fred () says:

    Sonic…I take it you refute my assertions re guru Iranian mullahs and goats?

    We aren’t going to get an answer are we weasel?

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  14. Fred () says:

    Come on sonic…you were doing so well.

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  15. Fred () says:

    So the weasel is happy to ignore a modern Islamic authority re goats and errr…lust?

    Now that’s embarrassing…the lack of cultural sensitivity and denial of facts is shocking from a paid up comrade.
    Note that sonic doesn’t deny it, he just hopes you won’t remember it.

    I mean…let’s just pretend it isn’t so.

    “A man can have sex with animals such as sheep¹s, cows, camels and so on. However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.”
    From Khomeini’s book. “Tahrirolvasyleh”, fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990

    Must be my invention, eh weasel?

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  16. allahSNACKBAR () says:

    What will these muzzies do with the 72 virgins they are striving to get to in islamic heaven,,,hahahaha the filthy cultists

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  17. Adolf Fiinkensein () says:

    Subsonic dog whistle makes dog jump.

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  18. kiwi_donkey () says:

    Nothing wrong with BDSM between consenting adults. Good on those muslims. Nothing wrong with BDSM for an MP either – unless she or he lies about it for political advantage, or shows a huge degree of hypocrisy about sexual conduct.

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  19. Put it away () says:

    Fred, the Ayatollah’s wisdom gets even worse….

    “A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate vaginally, but sodomising the child is acceptable. If a man does penetrate and damage the child then, he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl will not count as one of his four permanent wives and the man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister… It is better for a girl to marry at such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband’s house, rather than her father’s home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven. [“Tahrirolvasyleh”, fourth edition, Qom, Iran, 1990] “

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  20. Sonic () says:

    Note that none of these “quotes” from Islamic doctrine come with references.

    No doubt as the source is http://www.made-up-hate-site.org or some such.

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  21. dad4justice () says:

    “I have been made victorious through terror.”
    Muhammad, founder of Islam

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  22. george () says:

    Sonic, sounds like the time is right for you to convert to Islam.

    See if you can cut a deal; you know something like keeping your writing up apologising for the murderous belief in exchange for 73 “doe-eyed virgins”

    Head to your nearest deer farm and look longingly at the hinds. It should encourage you.

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  23. Sonic () says:

    Nice work David, it seems you have managed to gather all the ignorant bigots in one place.

    I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.

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  24. dad4justice () says:

    Shut up Sonic – don’t call me a “ignorant bigot”, I can’t help what the founder of Islam said you screwball .

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  25. Fred () says:

    Ayatollah Khomeini:
    “A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However he should not penetrate, sodomising the child is OK. If the man penetrates and damages the child then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girls sister.”

    From Khomeini’s book, “Tahrirolvasyleh”, fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Ir

    A philosophy that should provide a tremendous source of future immigrant workers for the childcare and livestock industries.

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  26. Put it away () says:

    Good one to bear in mind, from the Ayatollah again…
    “If during an act of intercourse a man notices that the woman has begun mentruating, he must withdraw, if he fails to, he must give alms to the poor. If such a man cannot afford to give alms to the poor, he must at least give something to a beggar. If he cannot afford that either, he must ask forgiveness of God.”

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  27. Sonic () says:

    So we have some fake quotes from well dodgy websites that prove, er, all muslims are perverts?

    Or does it prove that there is no point arguing with some people as they are just so twisted with hate they will believe anything.

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  28. Put it away () says:

    “Fake quotes” ? Sonic, this is from the Ayatollah’s own book. But don’t you worry about that, you just keep on putting your fingers in your ears. Is the website “dodgy” because it’s run by a woman from Iran who dares to be educated and fight for women’s rights ? Islam certainly would consider that dodgy, do you agree Sonic ?

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  29. Sonic () says:

    “this is from the Ayatollah’s own book”

    Which you read when?

    Your reading comprehension is shown up by the fact that you think Homa Darabi is running that site. Homa Darabi comitted suicide in 1994.

    So where did you actually get the quote then, http://www.useful-made-up-quotes-for-bigots.net?

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  30. Put it away () says:

    Sonic, I think you are the one with reading comprehension problems – please point out where I said Homa runs the site ? I knew it’s her sister Parvin that runs the site in memory of her, it wasn’t worth mentioning because it doesn’t affect the argument. Given that she’s IRANIAN I think she’s more qualified than either of us to know what the Ayatollah said in his book, no ?

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  31. Sonic () says:

    So have you bothered to find out what Iranian law is on child abuse? or where you happy just repeating slurs, lies and smears?

    I would shoot for the latter, but I’m sure even now you are typinng “evil muslims abuse children and get away with it+iran” into google.

    The question I have is what are you saying here, all muslims are child abusers?

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  32. Andrew Davies () says:

    Note BDSM is only permitted between husband and wife. How intolerant and exclusive is that.

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  33. Hoolian () says:

    Sonic – I respect your difference of opinion but this is just stupid. You cannot undermine Put It Away’s arguments just by denying his sources as illegitimate. Questioning them is one thing, but getting him to source them and then confronting that source as ill-informed etc is just being petty.

    It shows a distinct lack of argumentative ability when one hurls abuse in reaction to information which by all accounts seems sincere

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  34. Sonic () says:

    Hoolian, his “source” sucks. It is legitimate to point that out.

    However I have tried to move the debate on by asking the simple question what is he trying to argue.

    I’m still awaiting an answer to that.

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  35. leigh () says:

    There are a number of Islamic sites, which have thousands of answers to a myriad range of questions. The problem is not what they permit or prohibit. but the fact that they seek to control every aspect of a Muslim’s life. It is simply a controlling authoritarian ideology that prescribes to the ultimate. Islam is about submission.

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  36. Put it away () says:

    Sonic, some of us are gainfully employed, so, entertaining as it may be to watch you dance to avoid every point raised, I don’t have time to research Iranian law right now, but I recall that there was an attempt to raise the age of consent in Iran to something extravagant like 13 but it was rejected by the Islamic courts as contrary to Sharia, after all Mohammed married a six year old and porked her when she was nine, so who are lesser mortals to question his morals ? I can look up the source later if you insist, but you clearly have more time to do that yourself. Why don’t you break the habit of a life time and look for some actual facts on the issue at hand ?

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  37. leigh () says:

    There are a number of Islamic sites, which have thousands of answers to a myriad range of questions. The problem is not what they permit or prohibit. but the fact that they seek to control every aspect of a Muslim’s life. It is simply a controlling authoritarian ideology that prescribes to the ultimate. Islam is about submission.

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  38. Sonic () says:

    Still no answer to the obvious question “what are you trying to say here”

    I wonder why you dodge and weave over that?

    ” I recall that there was an attempt to raise the age of consent in Iran to something extravagant like 13 but it was rejected by the Islamic courts as contrary to Sharia”

    You “recall” probably you do not “recall” which joke of a site you heard that on.

    In Iran the marrigiable age is 15 for males, 13 for females

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  39. Fred () says:

    Run weasel run.
    Avoid the words of the ‘tolla by saying “when did you read them”.

    My pig dogs are going to need more than chocolates and roses for the Ayatollah Khomeini’s
    followers to get lucky.
    Could be a difficult courtship.
    Maybe they can get some hints from the weasel whom, it seems from a previous post, is close to his pooch.
    As for selling them to the next village afterwards….well….soy lattes are thin on the ground in Murapara and they have some lifestyle requirements.

    Where are the “moderate” muzzies of media legend?
    These fearless NZ decriers of the scumbags like A Khomeini and the Aust. Shreik Hilly?
    Gone to ground every one?

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  40. Elephanto () says:

    leigh: “It is simply a controlling authoritarian ideology that prescribes to the ultimate. Islam is about submission.”

    Many religions are about control and submission not just Islam. Look no futher than the Exclusive Brethern and the Jehovahs Witnesses for religions founded on “true” Chritian principles to see how any power can be abused, especailly control over a persons social/emotional wellbeing.

    Fred, no one doubts that Mr “it is the fault of the cat if it eats the meat?” is a moron of the first order. But just as you can’t say all Chritians are certifiably mental becasue some of them belieive João aka “John of God” actaully cures all you can’t claim all “muzzies” as you affectionalty call them are raving lunatics.

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  41. Sonic () says:

    Fred really is unhinged, perhaps he should go back to his home page

    http://www.I-am-a-sad-little-bigot-who-needs-to-make-some-friends.org.

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  42. leigh () says:

    Elephanto: “Many religions are about control and submission not just Islam. Look no futher than the Exclusive Brethern and the Jehovahs Witnesses for religions founded on “true” Chritian principles to see how any power can be abused, especailly control over a persons social/emotional wellbeing.”

    These groups are not representative of Christianity and indeed Jehovas reject the central tenets of Christianity.
    The point is sharia law, which is what these websites essentially prescibe is for all Muslims to regulate their life to the nth degree. No freedom .Thta is why they ask quasions to check they are doing the “right” thing. They have no freedom or thought to make up their own minds within their religious structure. Many simply cant keep to the rules. So a friend of my wifes who lives in NZ doesnt celebate Christmas(against his relsionalhtough Jesus is a prophet of sorts to Muslims) but drinks alcohol, which is prohibited. He is being a bad Muslsim.Nice guy though!
    It is a legalistic treadmill that many fall off. What Mohamamd prescribed is God’s way so there is no debate with the Mullahs who tell the people what to do. That is the problem.

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  43. leigh () says:

    Elephanto: “Many religions are about control and submission not just Islam. Look no futher than the Exclusive Brethern and the Jehovahs Witnesses for religions founded on “true” Chritian principles to see how any power can be abused, especailly control over a persons social/emotional wellbeing.”

    These groups are not representative of Christianity and indeed Jehovas reject the central tenets of Christianity.
    The point is sharia law, which is what these websites essentially prescibe is for all Muslims to regulate their life to the nth degree. No freedom .Thta is why they ask quasions to check they are doing the “right” thing. They have no freedom or thought to make up their own minds within their religious structure. Many simply cant keep to the rules. So a friend of my wifes who lives in NZ doesnt celebate Christmas(against his relsionalhtough Jesus is a prophet of sorts to Muslims) but drinks alcohol, which is prohibited. He is being a bad Muslsim.Nice guy though!
    It is a legalistic treadmill that many fall off. What Mohamamd prescribed is God’s way so there is no debate with the Mullahs who tell the people what to do. That is the problem.

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  44. Chuck Bird () says:

    “In Iran the marrigiable age is 15 for males, 13 for females”

    Sonic, what would you call a adult male who has sex with a 13 year old girl?

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  45. Anon () says:

    I just want to know what the HELL David was Googling when he found that page….

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  46. Sonic () says:

    “Sonic, what would you call a adult male who has sex with a 13 year old girl”

    A resident of Texas?

    http://www.healthymarriageinfo.org/policylaw/policy_document.asp?d=%7BF89B476B-83E9-41DF-AA6D-6C2D61744668%7D

    I sort of set you up there, I was sure someone would come running in screaming about the evil muslims marrying off children

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  47. Hamish () says:

    Crikey, watch the over simplifications fly.

    1. Saying that the Shariah is not against something is not the same thing as saying the Islam approves. Out society doesn’t ‘approve’ of BDSM per se, just because we don’t ‘dissaprove’ of it.

    2. Fred: you continually extrapolate all sorts of nasty crap from a few carefully selected examples. At best, it’s ignorant, at worst, bigoted. I’d say from the frequency of your exhortations that the latter is correct. In the mean time, feel free to get snotty at me as well for not agreeing with your racist views whole-heartedly: it just makes us stronger.

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  48. David C () says:

    See Sonic usually I respect your posts because you manage to maintain the moral high ground by not sinking to an abusive level.

    Pity.

    Anyway, between this post and yesterday’s about the two young lasses in Christchurch I’d say DPF is becoming regularly smutty.

    Bring back inflammatory facist posts I say!

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  49. Sonic () says:

    I suppose you have a good point David, but blind religious bigotry (ie Fred) does tend to raise my blood pressure.

    I’ll take it on board though.

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  50. Fred () says:

    Sigh….

    Ok, the weasel wants a referendum on muzzie immigration.

    Oh? He doesn’t?….I wonder why?

    And Hamish is one confused puppy….say what you like when you like pal,
    what makes you think it’s any concern of mine?

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  51. Hoolian () says:

    Leigh –
    I totally agree. In fact I was half way through posting something when my computer crashed. Neither EB or JW are good examples of Christianity but you’ve said this already.

    To the rest of you –
    The greatest problem with Islam (or maybe you’ll disagree) is that there is no authority in which to declare something universally correct. A website is hardly black-and-white Islamic canon. Take the Catholic Church as an example. While you may not agree with the Church’s teaching, you can be absolutely sure that there is no disagreement on what Catholics are meant to believe – and this can only be a good thing. Islam has no such authority, there is no ‘Islamic catechism’ nor is there any ‘head’ of the Islam church as a whole which has power to decide on Islamic doctrine. This is the universal problem with Islam. Terrorists who claim jihad in the name of Islam are generally disagreed with by everyday Muslims, yet there are no authority in which condemns or supports anything – its all very ambiguous really. But maybe, just maybe, that’s the way Mohammed etc wanted it. In Islam you can pretty much say what you want, when you want, as long as you have some backing from the Koran.

    Another example, and this is turning into a bit of a ramble, is that Islam is often misrepresented (largely because it has no authority/head which unites them). Take Iran and Jordan as a perfect example of 2 very different but Islamic states. Jordan openly supports the freedom and independence of women, while Iran does not.

    Do not make the mistake of thinking that Iran’s social laws (though based on the Koran) are necessarily the laws of Islam. That is totally wrong.

    Ok. I’m done :)

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  52. Matt () says:

    Fred,

    According to Wikipedia (admittedly a source with some errors – but perhaps worth noting here), there are only two volumes of the Tahrirolvasyleh.

    This mythical “volune four” you to which you cite repeatedly seems to stem from rabid dreams.

    And, if you really want to play “insane selective quotations”, the Bible’s chocka full of incest and infanticide.

    Cheers,
    Matt

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  53. David C () says:

    “The greatest problem with Islam (or maybe you’ll disagree) is that there is no authority in which to declare something universally correct”

    At a stretch I daresay it’s preferable to have numbers of dissenting voices than just the one who says what’s right and what’s wrong. Smells a bit dictatorial doesn’t it?

    Religion is all bit silly though really isn’t? Shouldn’t we have given up on believing in imaginary friends at age 5?

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  54. David C () says:

    And Sonic I do forgive you for your fall from grace, but bear in mind that it’s easier and better for you if you just laugh.

    Laugh and hope that every single poster on here is actually just a really lonely DPF.

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  55. Hoolian () says:

    David C – that depends on what you think religion is. The Catholic Church for example teaches that the Holy See is divinely guided so therefore is infallible on Faith and Morals. If one is speaking the truth, then technically speaking they can’t be wrong; and the Pope can’t be wrong because he’s divinely inspired. Or so the argument goes.
    Besides the previous Pope, John Paul II, invited anyone who disagreed with the Church to go elsewhere. And people do. But its still been around for 2000 odd years.

    And who wants a religion where people can say women have no rights when another says the do, yet both speak under the name of Islam. The Anglicans disagree with Catholics regarding priests (among other things), so they started their own church but they don’t call themselves Catholics. Choice is good but it’s also essential that Muslims (and the world) know what they believe. What a terrible thing it would be if Mohammed sent hordes of them went to Hell because they were mislead by a website.

    Anyway, enough about the Catholics but imaginary friends are not theologically or philosophy based. In fact, faith has nothing to do with imaginary friends rather psychology. Its very strange of you to link psychology with theology and I look forward to reading your thesis.

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  56. stan () says:

    woot? so what’s the age of consent for sex in Texas then? man, whoever got rid of that suggestion that the age of consent should be lowered to 12 here in NZ

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  57. toms () says:

    I go away for the long weekend and come back to discover that I have moved DPF to bestow upon me a post just about me (lets ignore that other dude hayman, I got the star billing Jemima!).

    Having just read this bit of odious dog whistling, I can say – Einstein indeed.

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  58. David Farrar () says:

    Anon – note the hat top – no Googling involved

    David C – the site has been regularly smutty for some time. Where have you been.

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  59. Hoolian () says:

    Chuck Bird – This may not be relevant or welcome, but I personally would not consider such a man (or woman) to be a paedophile.

    There was a case in the US when a woman had sex with a student, it was quite a famous case actually. The judge ruled that she was not a paedophile, but did recognize that she was one sick person.
    The judge said and I agree (in some ways) that:
    a paedophile is someone who has an erotic obsession with minors. So if a 25 year old has sex with a 15 year old, its more just wrong/criminal as opposed to seriously paedophilic.

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  60. Sonic () says:

    Chuck, the age of consent in Iran was raised two years ago, not lowered.

    Worlwide ages of consent are here, 14 is not that unusual

    http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm

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  61. James () says:

    “BTW – would you consider an adult male over say 21 who had sex with a girl under 16 a paedophile?’

    If both party’s consented then no.A Paedophile is someone with a sexual interest in prepubescent children….not mid to late teens.The latter may not be ideally ready to deal with sex and the issues concerned but its not paedophilia to have sex with them….just possibly very unwise,unethical and unlawful depending on the society you are in and the development of the person concerned..

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  62. David C () says:

    “Anyway, enough about the Catholics but imaginary friends are not theologically or philosophy based. In fact, faith has nothing to do with imaginary friends rather psychology. Its very strange of you to link psychology with theology and I look forward to reading your thesis”

    Faith has everything to do with Psychology. And what is the difference between an imaginary friend that a child conjures up to explain who tipped over the jug of juice on the table versus an adult who conjures up an imaginary being to justify control, pain, war, violence and intolrance?

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  63. george () says:

    David, James, why not just admit you have had a problem since the imaginary friend toasted the morally progressive citizens of Sodom an Gomorrah?

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  64. James () says:

    David, James, why not just admit you have had a problem since the imaginary friend toasted the morally progressive citizens of Sodom an Gomorrah?”

    Ahhhh….whats your point?

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  65. Hoolian () says:

    David C –
    Precisely because that is not why an adult would ‘conjure up’ or believe in God. God is less about explaining that which cannot be explained and more about acknowledging where one comes from, how one should live their life and how one can get to heaven? There are also other factors. Eg, the Watchmaker theory, or design theory, is a perfectly accepted philosophical argument that is a sound and valid alternative to the so-called ‘Godless’ Big Bang. However, there is no way you can prove God exists and there is no way you can disprove him either. Science does not, despite what people think, disprove the existence of God, rather it assists it. Eg, the Big Bang could have been a product of God’s intervention and evolution (which again is used to disprove God) is just God’s way of implementing the creation of humanity. So, he didn’t make them in a day – he made them over 10 000 years, it doesn’t refute that God made humans.

    Are you saying that believe in a supernatural/supreme being is completely and utterly childish/pointless/baseless? It’s interesting that you are so evidently against God. Where is your proof? And don’t use the Evil argument. I did Philosophy101 and it’s the most flawed argument of all.

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  66. Hoolian () says:

    Also in response to Sonic’s link to http://www.advert.org, its interesting to note that:

    – Argentina has 13 for boys, 16 for girls.
    – Canada has 12 for boys, 14 for girls and 18 for the rest of them
    – Malaysia’s the best. 18, for boys and married for girls. But guy-guy sex is illegal. So one is expected to have sex with themselves?

    Crazy :)

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  67. stan () says:

    woah Hoolian, excuse me if i didn’t do Philosophy 101 since Arts subjects blow, but why is evil a flawed argument?

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  68. Andrew Davies () says:

    Sonic
    At what age is it appropriate to indoctrinate children into becoming suicide bombers?

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  69. reid () says:

    Stan the evil argument is refuted by free will. For those who don’t know it, the evil argument is that G-d is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. How could such a being permit evil, yet it exists, ergo G-d doesn’t.

    Free will was granted to us by G-d, as it’s a way to build up spiritual muscle. It takes guts, strength, courage and wisdom to do the right thing, usually it’s easier to do the wrong thing.

    G-d’s foolishness confounds the wisest of men (Proverbs). Imagine if G-d intervened to prevent evil – where would it stop?

    What would the world be like if it was impossible to do anything but the right thing under all circumstances, what sort of a life would we have then?

    This is only a broad outline of the argument, apologies if it’s off topic.

    One thing that’s on topic however, is that I’m saddened to see within a few short years since 2001 that the love of one’s fellow traveller that is at the heart of Christianity is rapidly disappearing from the hearts of many, and what a regrettable and dangerous development that is.

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  70. Psycho Milt () says:

    And Sonic’s question still awaits an answer. The quoted Q&A provides a sensible answer to a reasonable question. DPF says he posted it because it’s funny, given that Islam is so proscriptive re sexual behaviour. But Islam is proscriptive only of sexual behaviour between unmarried people, and is otherwise far more liberal in this respect than Christianity, as evidenced by this Q&A. So in fact there’s no irony or humour to be found here. Right?

    Fred: burned a cross on any good lawns lately?

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  71. RedRag () says:

    And following on from reid’s precise and well put argument, it is the belief that we are all “children of One God” that causes us to enlarge our moral horizons.

    As the youngest of babes our only concern is ourselves, and with maturity this “moral horizon” enlarges in stages to include our family, our friends, our workplace, our nation and culture.

    Left to our own instinctive nature we tend to only include a maximum of only 100- 150 people in our “inner circle”, but as with all instincts this can be trained and educated to be either much larger (or in the case of brutality and trauma…reduced to be much smaller).

    The same progression can be seen in our histories, as Toynbee pointed out, that all of human civilisation can be seen as a series of stages and progressions towards larger and more complex expressions of society. At this point we are grappling with the challenges of how to achieve unity of the entire human race, and this is throwing into stark contrast the forces of construction and negation in this world.

    Realistically of course no one person can ever have an intimate personal knowledge of all the billions of others on the planet, but one can develop a sense of awareness and love for them, and the most powerful means of developing this is the idea of a common Creator, that is aware of all we do and will hold us in some manner to account for our actions.

    Those who reject the notion of a God, also eventually discard the notion of any “love for their fellow traveller” as superfluous to their self interests…and yes what regrettable and dangerous path that is.

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  72. Andrew Davies () says:

    RedRag
    I had a crack at you on another post today but the last two paragraphs especially of your post above are brilliant.
    Very well put.

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  73. Rocket Boy () says:

    Sorry Redrag but I don’t believe in a ‘common creator’ or any God and I am certainly in no danger of ‘losing my love for a fellow traveler’.

    In fact I find not being bound by the constraints of a religion very liberating and personally very satisfying.

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  74. Chuck Bird () says:

    Sonic, you are correct 14 for the age of consent is not that unusual. However, most countries have the proviso that there is not too great an age difference.

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  75. Put it away () says:

    “Realistically of course no one person can ever have an intimate personal knowledge of all the billions of others on the planet, but one can develop a sense of awareness and love for them, and the most powerful means of developing this is the idea of a common Creator, that is aware of all we do and will hold us in some manner to account for our actions.”

    Ummm Redrag, you may have noticed that most of the major religions of the world preach that their “fellow travellers” of different religions are going to Hell. This unites people how ?

    “Those who reject the notion of a God, also eventually discard the notion of any “love for their fellow traveller” as superfluous to their self interests…and yes what regrettable and dangerous path that is.”

    So people who believe in god don’t commit self-interested acts…errr, interesting theory, but there’s rather a lot of Catholic priests in jail right now for “regrettable and dangerous” acts.

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  76. Put it away () says:

    RedRag – my last comment got me thinking, is there any major religion that hasn’t left a trail of death and destruction everywhere it went in the world ? The only one that springs to mind is Buddhism, which is a religion that doesn’t believe in a god. Coincidence ?

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  77. Put it away () says:

    David, do you know what happened to my reply to Sonic I posted last night ? Technical glitch ? Rejected by yourself ? In case it’s the former I’ll submit it again. If the latter, of course it’s your site and you can allow or disallow what you like, but I thought that was a well sourced comment. Cheers.

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  78. David Farrar () says:

    Not rejected by me so repost.

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  79. Put it away () says:

    [reposted in two parts in case the length was the problem…]
    “The question I have is what are you saying here, all muslims are child abusers?”

    Sonic your much vaunted reading comprehension is letting you down again. Where did I say anything remotely like that ? Please point it out. The discussion was about whether *Khomeini* said these things, we’ve been follwoing that thread all along, when did you get lost ? If you want my opinion, I would guess ( and this really is a guess since I haven’t read any studies in this area ) that the percentage of people with pedophile tendencies is probably roughly similar accross cultures, I suspect the difference is that if a culture actively discourages and punishes it ( such as western culture ), then fewer people will act on those desires for fear of the shame and consequences, whereas in a society where it’s held up as a moral ideal ( e.g. Islam, ancient Greece ) there is nothing to encourage that small percentage of deviants to keep it zipped and find another hobby. I suspect the vast majority in any culture are simply not attracted to children.

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  80. chiz () says:

    I’ve seen claims from shiite thinkers that reproductive cloning is acceptable in islam (anything not expressly forbidden is permitted, and M., apparently, never mentioned cloning). And Gender Identity disorder is not a sin either according to some shiites. Of course what some theologians say and what actual muslims on the street believe are not the same thing…

    Put it away:Good one to bear in mind, from the Ayatollah again…
    “If during an act of intercourse a man notices that the woman has begun mentruating, he must withdraw, if he fails to, he must give alms to the poor. If such a man cannot afford to give alms to the poor, he must at least give something to a beggar. If he cannot afford that either, he must ask forgiveness of God.”

    Very odd. In one of the Hadiths M. actually boasts about having sex with women during their period.

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  81. chiz () says:

    Hoolian:The greatest problem with Islam […] is that there is no authority in which to declare something universally correct. […] Take the Catholic Church as an example. While you may not agree with the Church’s teaching, you can be absolutely sure that there is no disagreement on what Catholics are meant to believe

    Except that the Catholic church’s opinions (e.g. on the age of ensoulment) have changed over the centuries.

    Hoolian:Islam has no such authority, there is no ‘Islamic catechism’ nor is there any ‘head’ of the Islam church as a whole which has power to decide on Islamic doctrine. This is the universal problem with Islam. Terrorists who claim jihad in the name of Islam are generally disagreed with by everyday Muslims, yet there are no authority in which condemns or supports anything – its all very ambiguous really. But maybe, just maybe, that’s the way Mohammed etc wanted it. In Islam you can pretty much say what you want, when you want, as long as you have some backing from the Koran.

    This is the case for christians as well. It doesn’t really matter if there is some central authority that regulates religious interpretation since people make their own interpretation. Witness, for example, abortion clinic bombers or the catholic priests, excommunicated, who support them.

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  82. chiz () says:

    Hoolian: God is less about explaining that which cannot be explained and more about acknowledging where one comes from, how one should live their life and how one can get to heaven?

    Im my experience people have religious beiliefs for two reasons: Firstly they have some sort of ‘spiritual’ feeling, a ‘god-shaped hole’ in their brain. This in my view is genetic in origin rather than supernatural.

    The second reason is that people are often badly educated. There are, for example, endless numbers of christians who have never been told that part of the New Testamant is known to be a forgery (the ending of Mark), or that the virgin birth story is a mistranslation, or that we have other claims form the same time period of people coming back to life, or that authorship of ancient documents isn’t straightforward (copyists would often modify documents). Just late last year Bruce Logan wrote a letter to the editor of the Press claiming that there was more historical evidence for Jesus that any other ancient person. This kind of ignorance is widespread.

    Justification for belieiving in God, such as explaining where we come from, generally comes after these two factors.

    Hoolian: There are also other factors. Eg, the Watchmaker theory, or design theory, is a perfectly accepted philosophical argument that is a sound and valid alternative to the so-called ‘Godless’ Big Bang.

    Ack!! Design theory is onle ‘accepted’ among creationists and other crackpots.

    Hoolian:However, there is no way you can prove God exists and there is no way you can disprove him either.

    Believers are often prone to make this claim but where is the evidence. People have been trying to prove or disprove the existence of God for some time. I have not yet seen a proof that this can’t be done. Do you have such a proof?

    Hoolian:Science does not, despite what people think, disprove the existence of God, rather it assists it.

    You have obviously never heard of the term “god of the gaps”. Science has dramatically reduced the need to seek religious explanations for things.

    Hoolian: Are you saying that believe in a supernatural/supreme being is completely and utterly childish/pointless/baseless?

    Yes that’s what David C was saying and so do I and many others.

    Hoolian: It’s interesting that you are so evidently against God. Where is your proof?

    There is no evidence for his existence and no logical reason to beilieve in him. How’s that?

    Hoolian:And don’t use the Evil argument. I did Philosophy101 and it’s the most flawed argument of all.

    Ah, Grasshopper, has done Phil101 and thinks he knows evrything:-)

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  83. David C () says:

    “It doesn’t really matter if there is some central authority that regulates religious interpretation since people make their own interpretation.”

    This is true and nor should there be. Religion, if it must exist, should be a personal decision. You should be free to believe what you want and not trapped within the confines of someone elses whim on what is “truth”.

    Of course we could all get over ourselves and learn to live and love what we have in front of us for the 75 years we’re on Earth for rather than try and live for some fairyland afterlife.

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  84. David C () says:

    Wow Chiz, totally impressed right now.
    I read the part about the argument from design and I feel “Ack” is the best response to it also.

    There is an abundance of proof for God’s nonexistence. It’s all the counters to every possible arugment for his being.

    However trying to prove something isn’t there is a tad difficult.

    The burden of proof should be on those claiming for his existence and yet they have been found wanting.

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  85. chiz () says:

    reid:Stan the evil argument is refuted by free will. For those who don’t know it, the evil argument is that G-d is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. How could such a being permit evil, yet it exists, ergo G-d doesn’t.

    You, and Hoolian, appear to be confused about the problem of evil and you are both wrong about your claim that free will refutes it. The problem of evil doesn’t just relate to why an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent being would allow evil to exist in the world it also refers to why pain and suffering also exist.

    And here’s the problem – many forms of pain and suffering do not involve human agency. Think for example of tornados or famines or genetic disorders. Fragile X syndrome is one of the most common forms of mental retardation and is caused by mutations in part of the FMR1 gene that is structurally unsound and extremely prone to mutations. It is relatively trivial to redesign the gene so that it does the same thing but is no longer mutation prone – so why didn’t God do do so?

    Even in cases where human agency is involved free will is still not a good response since it is a fairly slippery kind of notion. Many human behaviours have less choice to them than we might think thanks to biology and genetics. Think alcoholism, drug addiction, psychopathy, sexual orientation for example. Paedophilia might also be genetic….

    reid:Free will was granted to us by G-d, as it’s a way to build up spiritual muscle. It takes guts, strength, courage and wisdom to do the right thing, usually it’s easier to do the wrong thing.

    This is a common argument by christians but it isn’t true. By your reasoning it would be easier to have sex with children than ‘do the right thing’ but this isn’t so. Most people have no temptation to have sex with children to begin with and there is no ‘muscle’ to build up here. Suppose that paedophiles have such temptations because of some genetic mutation then your argument is that they should learn to resist their urges but my argument would be – why do they have such urges to begin with when most people don’t. Why not divinely eliminate the mutation from the population and lessen the amount of evil in the world.

    And in any case, ‘spiritual muscle’ may have a genetic component and so some may be unable to develop it well.

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  86. Put it away () says:

    Sorry, screwed up the italics tags on that one. The first para under “chiz” are from chiz, the two below are mine…

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  87. Fred () says:

    Matt matey, no agreement on the quotes?
    Ok, you need something sold @ Amazon.
    Don’t blush.

    “If one commits the act of sodomy with a cow, a ewe, or a camel, their urine and their excrement become impure, and even their milk may no longer be consumed. The animal must then be killed and as quickly as possible and burned.”

    The little green book, Sayings of Ayatollah Khomeini, Political, Phylosophica, Social and Religious with a special introduction by Clive Irving, ISBN number 0-553-14032-9, page 47

    Any of these boys immigrating here do you think?

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