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October 24, 2007 8:48am by David Farrar

General Debate 24 October 2007

Usual rules.

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Ross Nixon

Just recently someone has added a table to the Wikipedia article on New Zealand that shows New Zealand with a higher household income than Australia. See the comment page here for discussion of the figures. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:New_Zealand#Median_household_income
Kiwi household income BEATS Aussies?
Year riight!
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October 24, 2007 8:53am
cubit9f

So Mr Nuku the Kohanga Reo bus driver told some porkies about his bus and passengers.

Is he going to apologise for being economical with the truth and is Mr Flavell going to admit he was wrong and was simply being sensationalist to get attention.

But more importantly is the media going to admit it was less than diligent in obtaining facts before simply sensationalising the incident.
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October 24, 2007 9:00am
Pascal

How interesting. And the editing date is rather recent as well. I wonder if any of the usual suspects are masquerading as Banedoch. Why do I feel a Lamb and Mint chip advert coming up?
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October 24, 2007 9:02am
Peak Oil Conspiracy

Pascal:

I think “usual suspects” is the correct approach. Sam Dixon is evidently an economic genius, as recently he said he couldn’t be bothered teaching us Economics 101 – and ironically linked to Wikipedia articles on “deadweight loss”, “consumer surplus” and “producer surplus”. Phillip John is excellent at gift-wrapping statistics in an academic framework/context for public sonsumption. And Tane is a great project manager – a la The Standard.
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October 24, 2007 9:09am
Pascal

Yeah, it just seems a tad conspicious that just as the income discussion was raging here the NZ page and the Australian page gets edited by somebody who claims a Scottish name to show the NZ figures as better than the Australian figures.
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October 24, 2007 9:26am
Lee C

Ross Nixon I checked the link looks like a wind-up to me. I think it could safely go into the ‘bollocks’ file.
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October 24, 2007 9:48am
Mickey D

Received a pleasant surprise this morning. Took my son to creche to be advised that Kindercare (30 centres) is now joining the ’20 free education hours per week’ scheme. A complete about face by Kindercare which is not surprising though. It’s been highly noticeable that they’ve been shedding kids over the past few months.

Undoubtedly, to other creches who offered the 20 free hours from the off back in July.

For us personally, this only means more disposable income to be spunked away but we do know other mums that this scheme has enabled them to rejoin the workforce that they otherwise wouldn’t have been able to afford to. From memory this was one of the aims of the scheme.

Please note that Kindercare provides a fantastic service. I just think they along with the other major private players in pre-school care/education played a game of brinkmanship over this scheme to try and engineer a position of greatest profit to themselves.

No problem with that of course but it’s great to see market forces at work!
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October 24, 2007 9:54am
David Farrar

cubit – do you have a url for that story?
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October 24, 2007 9:58am
cubit9f

cubit – do you have a url for that story?

No URL – Morning report and various newspaper articles over some days.
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October 24, 2007 10:05am
cubit9f

cubit – do you have a url for that story?

No URL – Morning report yesterday, today and previously, also newspaper and TV reporting for some days.
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October 24, 2007 10:07am
Andrew W

So… there’s no retraction by the driver and nothing conclusive that contradicts his claims?
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October 24, 2007 10:09am
Reg

So do we trust the Police account or that of a Maori bus driver?
10 years ago I would have said with out a second thought -The Cops.
Now I’m not so sure.
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October 24, 2007 10:15am
cubit9f

Flavell confirmed the police version of events. He then quickly moved off the issue to get going about photgraphs at the road blocks
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October 24, 2007 10:24am
Andrew W

“Flavell confirmed the police version of events.” Great! Where?
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October 24, 2007 10:29am
cubit9f

“Flavell confirmed the police version of events.” Great! Where?

Morning report this morning.

“So… there’s no retraction by the driver and nothing conclusive that contradicts his claims?”

Neither was there anything conclusive to substantiate his claim
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October 24, 2007 10:33am
Danyl Mclauchlan

Cubit9f seems a little confused:

The police say they did not search a school bus carrying young children during their raids in the eastern Bay of Plenty last week.

They’ve now issued a detailed statement about an accusation that a bus carrying kohanga reo children was searched by armed officers.

The Maori Party has written to the Minister of Education seeking clarification because of the conflicting statements.

Assistant Police Commissioner Jon White told Morning Report that a school bus carrying young children was escorted through a checkpoint.

Two adults and a teenager on another bus were asked to get off it, were photographed, and the bus was searched for firearms and other weapons.

He told Morning Report that approximately 100 vehicles were stopped at the checkpoint on the morning of the raid.

Maori Party MP Te Ururoa Flavell says he accepts the police explanation, but still thinks they overstepped the mark.

Mr Flavell also says he still has serious concerns about the use of anti-terrorism legisation in authorising the raids.

He says disrupting the community by imposing roadblocks and photographing people is overstepping the mark.

From Radio New Zealand.

Flavell was in no position to ‘confirm’ the police version since he wasn’t actually there.
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October 24, 2007 10:39am
cubit9f

I am not confused

Quoted from the police statement

• A 33-seater Kohanga Reo bus (without any school bus signs) on its way to Whakatane was stopped and searched. No Kohanga Reo pupils were on the bus. The bus contained three people – the driver, a woman monitor and a 14 year old female secondary school student who was being taken to High School.

This is the other bus Danyl refers to

There were no Kohanga Reo children on the bus.
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October 24, 2007 10:59am
AM2

‘In a report released today the institute recommends New Zealand ditch its commitment to the Kyoto Protocol, which it says could reduce the competitiveness of New Zealand firms and hurt the economy.’

This is from the herald website. Is it not so inconvienent that the environment gets in the way of making huge profits? How dare it?

Why does he not just admit it that this whole Global Warming think is a hoax propogated by scientists to justify their funding.
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October 24, 2007 11:02am
Andrew W

So if Mr Nuku was driving “the other bus” and not the one that was carrying young children we might have it sorted. Which bus was Mr Nuku driving?
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October 24, 2007 11:16am
cubit9f

Asst Commissioner White confirmed on Morning Report that Nuku was driving the Kohanga Reo bus.

The police statement on the other bus (there were only two) states that;

• A school bus load of children was not stopped and searched by armed police. A school bus with children on board was escorted through the cordon without boarding or search at the request and in the company of the school principal from Ruatoki.

The full statement is at;

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0710/S00322.htm
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October 24, 2007 11:25am
MarkS

I wonder how the figures for the median wage is going? Stuff has an article about the “average” worker under Labour increasing by $500 over the last 7 years (no word on median/mean).

See:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4248095a13.html
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October 24, 2007 11:36am
barry

One of the problems that results when one tells porkies is that you get afflicted with the “little red Robin Hood ” effect.

The police have said from day 1 that no primary school or kindergarten carrying school bus was searched by police. (I cant spell that Kurung thing). I even heard on morning report today the bus driver saying (very carefully) that his bus was searched. He didnt actually say that their were chldren on it – but he was rather strident about his claim and insinuated that children were on board.

Its now apparent that the various reports about the childrens bus being searched were lies. And this tends to devalue all the other reports and leads people (like me) to think that the buggers were up to something – otherwise why lie.

However I do wonder why all the photographing. Its not even as though it was covert – it was almost like being photographed when arrested.
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October 24, 2007 12:09pm
Andrew W

Looks like you’ve built a sound case Cubit.
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October 24, 2007 12:32pm
philu

chris trotter talks/writes drivel..again/still..

this time on how pacifist deeg-green vegans are just a finger-snap away from becoming bloodthirsty anarchist/’tewwowwists’..

hell bent on wreaking destruction/killing against any and all..

(sheesh..!..so i could be just one veggie-burger away from ‘snapping’..?

whoar..!

(i’d better tell/warn ‘the boy’..)

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 24, 2007 12:44pm
philu

um..!..here’s the link..!

http://whoar.co.nz/2007/chris-trotter-does-his-dutycontinues-in-his-gate-keeper-rolesubtly-presenting-the-gummints-side-of-the-caseand-at-the-same-time-talking-absolute-drivel/

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 24, 2007 12:44pm
roger nome

“I wonder how the figures for the median wage is going? Stuff has an article about the “average” worker under Labour increasing by $500 over the last 7 years (no word on median/mean).”

Interesting. I also noticed that ho one has been answer this question that I posed over at the “median income thread:

“Anothing thing to take into consideration when looking at this data is external impacts on inflation.

One such impact is oil price. Now oil is a cost in nearly every service and product, so when oil prices increase, so does the cost of nearly everything.

As can be seen on the graph linked to below, the price of oil stayed constant at about the US $20 mark for the entire 1990s.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/OILPRICE

So oil price had no impact on inflation when National was in government. However, it will also be noted that oil price has more than quadrupled since labour has been entered government.

So unsurprisingly rising oil prices have accounted for much of the increase in inflation since Labour has come to power.

“Rising oil prices accounted for nearly half of the June quarter Consumer Price Index increase, but this is just the beginning,”

http://www.greens.org.nz/searchdocs/PR11045.html

So unless Helen Clark is responsible for the huge increase in global oil prices, it seems a little unfair to be including the increase in inflation due to oil price rises in our calculations. Perhaps there is some way of accounting for this?”
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October 24, 2007 12:49pm
PaulL

Roger, are you suggesting that we shouldn’t look at real income increases because Helen isn’t responsible for (at least some of) inflation? That is a pretty bold attempt to manipulate the statistics.
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October 24, 2007 2:08pm
krazykiwi

stan, you posted a bible passage over on another thread. here’s a favorite of mine… relevant for everyone, moreso for those who post porn links.

Philippians 4:8; Summing it all up, friends, I’d say you’ll do best by filling your minds and meditating on things true, noble, reputable, authentic, compelling, gracious—the best, not the worst; the beautiful, not the ugly; things to praise, not things to curse.
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October 24, 2007 2:33pm
philu

and you ‘live’ that do you k.k..?

phil(whoar.co.nz)
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October 24, 2007 3:16pm
Rex Widerstrom

Well he contemplates your comments, phil, so if the cap fits… 😀
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October 24, 2007 3:44pm
john

You have to love our health system , with that 8 billion dollar surplus backing it up NOT ,
My wife broke her leg on sunday , taken to Wellington Hospital, was lying on a trolley for 17 hours in the corridor, every man and his dog looked at her as they came in , the next day at 4.00pm got a bed No opening for a op for pinning till the next day(Tuesday) ,no openings ( 58 yo female with heart complications ,serious) REMEMBER the leg is still broken and not fixed, today Wednesday, operation at 10 am, preped and taken down , BUT NO the enethnitist has gone home, (dont fuck me with my spelling leftist ,IM pissed off), back to the ward still with the broken leg , ,another attempt at the moment as they have to numb here from the waist due to her heart , but fuck my wife layed in pain in a public corridor like some refugee Fuck i hate the left with their 6000.000000,dollar budget , so sonoc SIT on it, shit they gave a million to the plo terrorests
Im at home Wednesday waiting for my wife(lover ) to come out of surgery ,are we living in zambabwia, under the barren tight evil bitch we are
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October 24, 2007 4:12pm
llew

I can see why you’re angry – had a similar experience with my wife & a very badly dislocated shoulder (feeling almost completely returned to fingers, but it’s taken 18 months).

Nothing like as bad as your wife’s experience, but I was hopping mad at the time. Or the times I should say, as we had to make many visits.

I wonder, do long weekends mean busier A&E wards?
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October 24, 2007 4:20pm
krazykiwi

phil – yes, i work pretty hard to. miss the mark sometimes but practice does make [almost!] perfect
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October 24, 2007 4:21pm
barry

John. llew

I hope you voted last election?
and if you voted for a continuation of the previous government then you know what to do next time

and in case you dont understand YOU VOTE TO CHANGE THE GOVERNMENT. Two terms are enough for any government and this lot are buggerred.
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October 24, 2007 4:41pm
cubit9f

John,

I feel bloody sorry for your wife and you.

5 months ago I had an employee who was then in the early stages of cancer. The professional care he got from nursing and medical staff was extremely good and caring. However, they were working under adverse conditions. This chap was very ill and running an extreme temparature which left him lying wet. The nursing staff wanted to continually change his bedding but were prevented from doing so by an administrator who told them in the presence of my man that the budget couldn’t extend to such luxuries.

Fortunately he was well enough to give this bean counting tart a right earful.

The cost of public health administrtion and policy development is way out of control. Ryall gave Hodgson a burst on this at Q time today. The answers just get smarmier and smarmier. All he can say is how much more is being spent. However, people like Johns wife are not seeing the type of improvement that all of this extra cash should be providing.

As Barry says we all need to get out and vote and really think about just how buggered the current mob really are.
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October 24, 2007 5:03pm
grumpyoldhori

Hmm, I see a Bus in Ruatoki was stopped and searched, had a young girl and woman on board beside the driver.

Stopped by armed police, now why would they photo a girl of fourteen unless the
black clad types believed her to be a terrorist supporter.

Now, did they photo all the residents
going past in other areas were arrests
were made, if not, why not.

I can hear the cops now, we were just
following orders.

Notice the difference between the residents of Ruatoki and the students
in Dunedin.
The students were handled with kid gloves.
why the difference.
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October 24, 2007 5:23pm
Steve

Accountability.
Bridgecorp.
Just a note for those of you who invested with Bridgecorp, and waiting for news.
There is a Bridgecorp Investors meeting tomorrow by a group known as EUFA (Exposing Unacceptable Financial Advice)
http://www.eufa.co.nz
I will be there.
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October 24, 2007 7:22pm
Mickey D

John, no one should have to go through the experience your wife has.

However, there has to be balance to the health system debate.

As a regularly frequent hospital user over the years due to my football injuries and the mishaps of the kids we’ve received nothing but outstanding and prompt service.

For me this includes three lots of surgery to fix broken leg, arm and busted knee.

One swallow does not make a summer.
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October 24, 2007 7:23pm
PaulL

Mickey. You are quite right. It is OK for some people to die so long as on average most people don’t. That is what you meant, isn’t it? 🙂

My personal view is that health care is one of those areas where you should expect excellent service each and every visit. On incident of less than excellent service could mean a life-time of cost, or a short lifetime. My belief is that I am more likely to get that from the private sector than the public, therefore I pay for private healthcare.

It seems unfair to me that some people cannot afford private healthcare, it seems to me that almost everyone would take it if they could have it. My recollection is that the last time anybody added it up, we could buy everyone in NZ private healthcare for less than the current cost of running our health system. Food for thought.
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October 24, 2007 7:28pm
Steve

Mickey D, ma in law has finaly had a botched hip joint replaced after it popped out 11 times in 9 years. But she had to go private and pay, coz the public hospital waiting list became almost non existant.

Those who paid tax all these years don’t matter, only those who need injuries fixed so they can get back to work and pay tax?????
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October 24, 2007 7:39pm
hinamanu

“For us personally, this only means more disposable income to be spunked away.”

Now,,

who wants to talk about disposable income?

I always believed there was going to be a newspaper headline one day saying

” Govt concerned about NZ disposable income affecting inflation
with negative impact.”

Of course what actually happened was Kiwi Saver to bite more into that disposable income and above some one is talking about using theirs for child care.

After petrol, smokes, a movie, a few beers, pizza,, whats left??

is this too obvious a subject or are you old and can’t afford proper heating
and does my list a long lost memory of the eighties to you.
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October 24, 2007 7:44pm
Steve

hinamanu,
After petrol, smokes, a movie, a few beers, pizza,, whats left??
And the mortgage, rates, food bill, power bill, etc.
Savings? what joke!!
You know what’s left …. absolutely fuck all.
The taxes killed it.
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October 24, 2007 7:54pm
john

Ps its not the nurses , even the Big money administrators , its the third world service that we are provided with .My wife was by the exit of A and E.and she had been attended to. the problem was no beds in ward 29 , and probably the lack of proffesional surgeons excluding the GREAT nurses. We have southern cross and i would have taken my love there but thats not the way it works. But shit i hate the way some tossier from overseas here as a refuge gets his aids and tb attended to straight away (triarge) but my wife lays for hours and hours with a broken leg (PS after a epidunal and various nuts and bolts added after she was operated on this afternoon,hopefully a good recovery
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October 24, 2007 8:13pm
hinamanu

Actually,, I’m surprised no ones commented on the labour day protest in Auks on Monday

Not sure how many turned out , but doesn’t it seem we’ve gone a full circle in workers rights and have gone back to where the eight hour movement began in the 19th c.

who can work a 40 hr wk any more ?

Labour day has become a day of protest instead of celebration.
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October 24, 2007 8:24pm
Tauhei Notts

KIWISAVER
This is for all those bloggers born between 26 October 1942 and 26 October 1957.
You MUST enrol for this scheme.
YOU MUST
Whether you are an employee, self employed or not employed; it is a must.
Those of you under 50; I am not so sure.

The question that gets me is that why would that slime ball Cullen throw so much money at a group that is unlikely to vote for him and his cabal of barren harridans. Don’t bother to answer the question. Just get in and take advantage of the incredible opportunities.

Forty years in business and I have never ever seen such an opportunity as this. It is mind boggling. I thought it was too good to be true, but had it all confirmed for me today. I am stunned.
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October 24, 2007 9:05pm
hinamanu

Tauhei,,

you are so optimistic and I must say it is rubbing off.

I am suspicious govts will water it down in time and honestly I cannot see someone involved for fifty years reaping its riches, there are going to be untold claw backs.

BVut maybe when I attain my degree in 2 yrs I will seriously consider it,

I will then be 50 with 15 yrs to retirement

will 15 yrs matter?
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October 24, 2007 9:10pm
PaulL

Once people start to build up assets in a scheme like this, the only fiddling that govts can justify is to make it more attractive. Look at the experience in Australia. The fiddling we see is:
– reduce taxation on it further
– co-contributions for low income folk
– double co-contributions for low income folk
– maximum investment amounts that you can put in in a lump sum (admittedly, making it less attractive, but is a go-forward change, if you are already in then you don’t get impacted)
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October 24, 2007 9:58pm
Richard

Mallard vs. Henare – who’d win?
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October 24, 2007 10:33pm
J Mex

Anyone else notice on TV3 late news who a supporter of Jamie Lockett, one of the detained “terrorist threats”, was?

Que Shane Wenzel thread (I assume there is only one Shane Wenzel)…

http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/05/shane_wenzel.html
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October 24, 2007 11:37pm

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