Tokelau rejects independence for the second time
This is getting to be really funny. All the well meaning do gooders keep telling the Tokelau people that being a colony is bad and they should vote for independence. And they were amazed when the vote a year or so ago missed out on the 66% super-majority by 6% or so.
So they held an another vote, because I mean how dare they vote the wrong way. And story after story told us there was absolutely no way this vote would fail. Yet it has, by 2% this time.
Priceless.
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October 25th, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Isn’t Tokelau the Island that is submersing into the sea.
aren’t they all coming over here.
why would they vote for independence,,if the island sinks where can they go as citizens.
they’ll vote and vote and vote and nothing will change.
what idjit is pushing for their independence?
October 25th, 2007 at 8:42 pm
I had to laugh hearing Helen Clark talking to Radio NZ about this matter around 5:45 tonight. She said something like ‘It is an important constitutional matter and so naturally they have a referendum on it.’. So where is our referendum on the ERB? A 66% requirement to pass that would be reasonable too.
October 25th, 2007 at 9:53 pm
Or they really want to win the World Cup with us in 2011, coz they still think the AB’s have a better chance than the Tongans Samoans and Fijians.
October 25th, 2007 at 9:56 pm
SPC,,
think about what you just said,,
they’re NZ citizens,, remember !!
October 25th, 2007 at 9:57 pm
oh yeah,, just realised,,
you’re saying they want to retain citizenship
he he,
he he he
October 25th, 2007 at 10:06 pm
NZ suckers….more Pacific Island mendicants on the taxpayer’s teat.
The karma is perfect.
October 25th, 2007 at 10:11 pm
Tina,,
I’ve always wondered why NZ has Island states when Aussy doesn’t
any one know how this happened ?
October 25th, 2007 at 10:15 pm
1. The Polynesians must have had a choice.
2. We knew how to navigate that far from land.
3. The UK regarded us as more fit for the role.
All 3.
October 25th, 2007 at 10:23 pm
Aust. far too smart to have failed economies bludging in perpetuity.
The only reason Aust has anything to do with Pac “states’ like PNG is to prevent refugee flow when AIDS and bankruptcy do a full court press.
Aust regards itself as part of SE Asia not Pacific.
October 25th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Tina
There Is An Alternative
Go to the nearest mirror
And Repeat
“I must not keep bing a fucking Bigot”
repeat as necessary
October 25th, 2007 at 10:34 pm
being
a
fucking
bigot
October 25th, 2007 at 10:38 pm
Hin…
The NZ taxpayers so enjoy subsidising the lives of people in unchanging dysfunctional states, it’s only fair you all should do it for as long as you like …we like happy campers.
October 25th, 2007 at 10:39 pm
They were going to retain their NZ passports and residence rights anyway – so voting for independence (and free association or some such lawyer phrase) wasn’t going to change that.
I reckon those voting NO thought Tokelau would slowly lose the various kinds of financial and administrative aid NZ’s committing there.
Could Tokelauans living in NZ and elsewhere vote? Would be interesting to see the different voting patterns between island residents and expatriots (if you can be ex- or patriot when you’re a colony!).
Tina: Oz does have a failed economy bludging in perpetuity – its called Canberra.
October 25th, 2007 at 10:39 pm
NPOO,,
Tell me where you saw bigotry
I’m sorta grown up and have a good vocab and literary insight and I cannot see your bigot conclusions.
plse enlighten,, will accept a crayon illustration.
October 25th, 2007 at 10:39 pm
You pay your money and you take your choice……
Enjoy.
October 25th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Yeah John….but that’s compulsory.
Pacific bludgers are not…..understand now?
October 25th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
Tina, not really. Aust’s aid budget in the Pacific is bigger than NZ’s. But they can afford it more.
October 25th, 2007 at 11:10 pm
If anyone wants realism – New Zealand won Samoa off Germany in WW1.
And our aid budget is ridiculous given our surplus. Not that tax cutters would change that.
October 25th, 2007 at 11:11 pm
Yeah….I know, but there’s none of the NZ PC ethnic hand-ringing…. the aid is tied….see PNG protests.
And no right of entry to Aust. when they screw it up.
NZ is bluffed by anyone that can turn on a tap.
October 25th, 2007 at 11:15 pm
yeah,,
funny how anyone else can cry a river and be heard except Kiwis.
maybe its time to stop crying and…..
October 25th, 2007 at 11:16 pm
SPC: Australia can afford tax cuts and we can’t. Therefore they logically can afford more aid than we can too.
October 25th, 2007 at 11:20 pm
We can afford the same amount of aid per GDP they do and it would hardly dent our surplus.
October 25th, 2007 at 11:21 pm
We can’t afford the other services they do on a per-head basis, why would you think aid was any different?
October 25th, 2007 at 11:28 pm
True. But it’s still a choice we can afford.
It’s our choice how much we sustain/improve services or cut taxes.
Amongst this choice is how much we increase our foreign aid. We have committed to do so – when we agreed to the .7% of GDP target. We have been under .3% of GDP while running a large surplus and all we have said about that is that we will soon be increasing the amount in real terms up to .35% etc Its all a too littlle and too late, especially when one considers the surplus and that it is so doable.
October 25th, 2007 at 11:30 pm
Of course, NZ can “afford” to confiscate much more wealth from taxpayers and give it to foreigners living in failed economies that refuse to take any economnic responsibility for their lives…..except for the fact they want first world services with third world cultures.
Doesn’t matter, some whitey will pay.
Duh, it’s obvious.
October 25th, 2007 at 11:37 pm
This is what I mean about Islamic people having to flee their own country for christian countries.
why are their gods so powerless to prosper their believers.
Muslim believers have to rely on christian nations who have prospered and benefited.
and the Muslims have the cheek to declare Allah to us.
And our leaders hjave the audacity to tolerate their mosques and decry christians.
Its all a mixture of fraudulence and hypocrisy, but I think I’ve lost everyone,, so, as homer simpson says ” what you gonna do”
October 25th, 2007 at 11:38 pm
Japan has a much larger aid budget than us and Taiwan and China offer more aid in the Pacific than us and Oz combined. But don’t let facts get in the way …
October 25th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
Aust. regards the near Pacific as tribally backward children to be managed…..not as contributors to Black-Scholes derivative pricing theory
Truly, I’m not sure if that includes NZ.
October 25th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
Some people fled Europe to do better in the ME, now they find themselves unwelcome there and they are more welcome in Europe or the America’s. I don’t think they see anything in that about any cultural suprenacy to either viewpoint – just that it’s a large planet and their’s always some place where one can be safe …
October 25th, 2007 at 11:43 pm
Well if thats the understanding those in the Pacific have of Australia’s attitude, we would do well to distance ourselves from the deputy dogs.
October 25th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
“Truly, I’m not sure if that includes NZ.”
Lol Tina,,
do you mean as tribally backward or contributors ??
October 25th, 2007 at 11:56 pm
Taiwan and China have larger aid budgets in absolute terms, $ per head, or percentage of GDP? I suspect only the former.
My point was deliberately provocative. If our government budget is not strong enough to afford to return money to those from whom it was taken, it clearly isn’t strong enough to be splurging that money around the world on other countries.
There is some foreign aid that I see as useful, and far more that I see as either entirely wasted, or just ways to buy influence and political power.
If we really cared about the poor in other countries we would encourage free trade. By this I don’t mean forcing third world countries to open their markets (although economically speaking this would be for the better for them), but encouraging first world countries to open their’s. Aid is essentially gifting money to poor people. Free trade is allowing them to create their own wealth on their own terms.
The problem with many on the left is they like the idea of helping poor people in other countries, except when it comes to actually allowing them to have jobs. Because allowing them to have jobs implies allowing them to do jobs that the poor people in our own country might otherwise do. That’s when many want to suddenly create non-tariff barriers that prevent or minimise any real trade.
October 25th, 2007 at 11:59 pm
“Free trade is allowing them to create their own wealth on their own terms.”
JFK said it eh
“give a man a fish he eats for a day,, teach him to fish he eats for life.
Obviously 3rd world nations are not being taught dependency
October 26th, 2007 at 12:04 am
You meant “independency”?
October 26th, 2007 at 12:06 am
Some people seem to think the Tokelauns would have lost nz citizenship if they had voted for free association (not full independence, DPF) – they would have stayed nz citizens, like cook islanders are.
there is a democratic issue here (which justified the second referendum so soon after the first) and that is the vast majority of people have voted for change, is it fair that there will is blocked by a much smaler minority? I guess this is an argument against supermajorities in general..
also, on the subject of supermajorities – the filibuster in the US Senate suck.
October 26th, 2007 at 12:11 am
“do well to distance ourselves from the deputy dogs”.
Bwaaaaa….hilarious…….you would have a revolution in NZ if Aust. introduced visas and short tourist stays only for Kiwis in Aust……check out who owns your banking system.
The delusions of the backward….not you hin.
October 26th, 2007 at 12:17 am
In the Pacific there is a bit of rivalry between China and Japan and China and Taiwan (over buying recognition) in this region. This explains the levels of aid here.
Japan’s aid is more than our’s on a per GDP scale.
“Various” forms of aid have value. Buying a strategic asset or political stability has value, as does ensuring sustainable economic growth (mutually beneficial trade results).
As to your first point on the economy I completely disagree.
I find it inconsistent that you argue that we should fund services here first before aid, then say we cannot afford aid if we have domestic inflationary pressures preventing tax cuts.
Our economy cannot affors to return the surplus to taxpayers while there are inflationary pressures – as the RB Governor said only yesterday. It can be used to provide
1. savings incentives
2. provide for Cullen Fund affordability of tax funded Super
3. aid offshore
4. assistance for people to become energy efficent in their homes
5. investment in infrastructure to reduce longer term insufficiency of supply – diminish future supply shortages.
On the second point I largely agree. Offering free trade access to the third world to the first world without demanding anything in return (like ownership of their service sector and public utilities and open access to manufactured goods so they never develop local production capability) is the best form of aid.
October 26th, 2007 at 12:23 am
Check out SPC….in 200 words or less, why NZ is a failed socialist state….
So earnest , so stupid…..
Noddy and Big Ears.
October 26th, 2007 at 12:29 am
When you run out of minerals you could eat dingos. At least the Arabs had the common sense to build Investment Funds.
October 26th, 2007 at 12:34 am
And FYI, Oz lets in Kiwis because we are the best migrants they can get.
If they didn’t, we would nationalise their assets in Enzed. Either way, as the British determined decades ago, the Kiwis were the only ones in the South Pacific who could be both trusted and capable of leadership.
Look at Oz, goes into East Timor and then demands half the oil, and the world notes only the sheriff going into Iraq as occupying to gain access to oil. What the sheriff does with power, deputy dog is sure to follow.
October 26th, 2007 at 12:36 am
The OECD and IMF regard Enzed as one of the most free economies in the world – ahead of Oz by the way. But then no one but the Americans take Australia seriously.
October 26th, 2007 at 12:37 am
Bwaaaa….. NSW, a State, has an economy many times the size of Singapore…..and not a mineral to be seen.
So earnest, so stupid.
October 26th, 2007 at 12:39 am
Next you will be saying that because there are no minerals or natural resources in Sydney and Melbourne or Adelaide or Perth or Brisbane that the Oz economy is otherwise. Whats a service sector centre and what’s a real economy?
October 26th, 2007 at 12:45 am
Are you more stupid than earnest pal?
You made the risible claim that Aust. is a mineral based dingo eating economy. I called you on it……now I’m left with the 12:39 gibberish.
You always know when your talking to a Kiwi socialist……
October 26th, 2007 at 12:57 am
I guess your interest in Kiwitime is your desire to have the last word.
You called me on nothing. I did not say OZ was a mineral based dingo eating economy I said what would you do without the minerals – then eat the dingos. Minerals are finite, and unlike the rest of the farm economy dingos might survive droughts. But accuracy is not your game is it?
But your delusion of superiority or even relevance is truly extreme even for an Australian. Why don’t they allow you on grown up boards in Oz?
You have spent some time here talking down anyone not Australian, unless they share in some prejudice, yet the basis of Australia’s success as a lucky country is the minerals assets.
Where would your arrogance be without it. Minerals are a finitre resourse – Arabs have chosen to invest some of the proceeds from their finite resource oil in investment funds. What has Oz done, taken a course in vanity but your descandants may regret it when the minerals run out.
October 26th, 2007 at 1:03 am
Past your bedtime now…..
I’ve been wasting my time, you’re a student …aren’t you sweetie.
Stick with it until you’re poor in middle life…when you’ll hear the dogs of reality barking in the distance.
It’s never pretty.
October 26th, 2007 at 1:09 am
From the land of all knowing dreamtime. Well something for you tro sleep on – can you name one election for any post in the wider world where an Australian has been chosen over a New Zealand candidate. Want to know why there is this record of defeat time after time (and half the time you concede so someone down under gets a turn), look in the mirror deputy dog.
October 26th, 2007 at 7:31 am
I hope the PM and Goff reflect on the quality of advice they have been getting from MFAT on this. And in MFAT I wonder whether Murdoch will use this latest humiliation to rethink strategy towards the Pacific (or will he continue to sek the counsel of has beens like Neil Walter??). Instead of wasting time and money on a White Paper on Asia which was frighteningly shallow and told us nothing new, why not zero base policy towards the Pacific and consider new ways forward?
October 26th, 2007 at 7:49 am
Truly ludicrous. Because NZ’s PC elite needs to tick off the decolonisation box at the UN we will continue to force referendums on a tiny set of atolls with maybe 1400 people until they finally agree to the “correct” solution.
This is all about us and the UN and nothing at all about Tokelau.
Arguably its also dead stupid from a NZ perspective, do we really need another failed state playing off influence bids between the Chinese, the Taiwanese and the Triads for UN votes or locations for illegals or international crime?
You can count the successful Pacific island states since independence on one hand. In fact on one finger. And the only reason Samoa is successful is that they have rights of residence here, and American Samoa next door is a bit porous. Every, and I mean every other Pacific Island “nation” has gone backwards in all of the key economic, social and quality of life indicators since independence.
anti-colonialism doesnt look so hot when the infrastructure crumbles, endemic corruption kicks in, life expectancy reduces, standard of living reduces and we have to wait hand out for the “international donor community” to throw a few crumbs, for which we have to pretend to be grateful.
Oh hang on that was NZ wasnt it, anyway, its considerably worse out in the Pacific.
I hope the pomo progressives are proud of themselves.
October 26th, 2007 at 8:05 am
With places like nauru and other pacifc independant nations (fiji, The solomans, bouganville, etc) all going broke and being run by corrupt leaders why would anyone in their right mind vote for independence. Thats just a vote for even bigger and better poverty and deprivation.
One has to ask the same question of most of africa – all those countires were never better off than when they were colonies (and Im thinking of Zimbabwe, angola, somalia, congo, nigeria, mozambique, ethiopia, Ivery coast, etc, etc) Independance has turn africa into a mess of killing and torture – actually mostly tribal based.
You know, there is definately someting in what that guy Watson said a few days ago ie:”we have all tried to believe that people of all cultures are equally intelligent but the proof from africa is that this is not true”
October 26th, 2007 at 8:23 am
I heard Helen make the comment last night that it was important that a decision such as had to have the support of the majority which for an issue such as this was 66%. She also thinks that it needs to be voted on again sometime in the future – not next year.
Funny old thing for equally important constitutional issues in NZ, like the change to MMP she always states that 51% is a significant majority and we can’t be trusted to review it at the polls.
October 26th, 2007 at 8:57 am
Who wants to live on an island 9 degrees from the equator, in the typhoon belt and only 2m above sea level?. But wait, there’s more: there are only 3 scattered islands with an area of 10.8km2 in the group with a population of 1600 adults . They are a day’s boat journey from Apia, Samoa. NZ aid required to exist.
It would probably be cheaper to rehouse them all in NZ and NZ take over full title so we could claim fishing rights. The same with Niue; these places are not self sustainable, likewise Kibati. If it wasn’t for the jockeying for influence by the Chinese and Japanese in the area we would probably have dumped them years ago. The UN are professional busybodies whose experts come and go.
October 26th, 2007 at 9:16 am
I recall that Tokelau would have been eligible for UN or EU develpoment aid, had they accepted independence or free association, they aren’t under the current system.
Can anyone elaborate on that, because I thought it was one of the main reasons for the referendum, as opposed to the decolonialisation idea put forward by the deity formerly known as nigel6888.
I’m a bit light on the details but from what I recall, there’s a whole lot of help out there (to counter the corruption problems, and assist them setting up a form of governance, and so-on) that they’ve turned down.
October 26th, 2007 at 9:27 am
SPC wrote
Japan’s aid is more than our’s on a per GDP scale.
Not by much thou,
According to this 2005 OECD report, Japan’s ODA/GNI was 0.28, while NZ was 0.27, Aust was 0.25
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/52/18/37790990.pdf
October 26th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Apparently they get to design their own flag (woohoo!) and htey get to make some laws. who whouldnt want that? well me, for one – if someone offered my suburb independance and it started voting on its own laws they would probably be stupid laws Im happy I have 4 million od other people to make sure we dont fall into corrupt law making practices etc.
October 26th, 2007 at 6:19 pm
interesting FP. Helen Clark said on Natrad yesterday that NZ had no interest in being a colonial power, and the media has regularly used the decolonisation line. I guess the fact that the Labour Party is sucked up tight to the UN and the decolonisation bit is used to embarass them at the UN is also part of my analysis.
I also know that the UN aid is pretty uncertain and normally through orgs like UNESCO – ie normally disaster relief, or through the World Bank, in which case its cheap loans or technical assistance. These are now more focused on Africa, which suggests that the value of NZ’s contribution is likely higher than the uncertain alternative assistance.
If Tokelau was hoping to keep NZs support and double dip into new sources of funding, then i wish upon them the future of “donor harmonisation” that will open up before them.
October 26th, 2007 at 8:32 pm
“Im happy I have 4 million od other people to make sure we dont fall into corrupt law making practices etc.”
Sounds good in writing
have you turned on the tv or read a paper lately.
October 27th, 2007 at 9:09 am
What a colony: only 1600 voters or about 5000 men, women and kids spread over 3 coral outcrops. The place doesn’t have to sink, hurricanes will swamp it in season, dynamite fishing will do the rest. Most of the Tokes have already fled to NZ. The aid wars for these outposts of survivorship are for access right to potential mineral and fishing rights or other offshore advantages. The Cooks have tax haven facilities.
October 28th, 2007 at 10:36 am
hinamanu,
if I had another 100 million it might be even better and even then it would never be perfect. But 4 million beats 5000 any day. If you and your neighburs had a vote on what your full set of laws (most of which none of you fully understood) what would happen? Particularly if the education level was fairly low.