Starship gives money back to NZ First

December 14th, 2007 at 11:28 pm by David Farrar

Oh this has become a PR disaster for NZ First. Starship Hospital has now rejected their $158,000 donation:

“It’s most unfortunate that the money wasn’t given in the spirit of genuine philanthropy, but rather it appears to gain political capital and media leverage,” he said.

“We have decided it’s in the best interest of the Starship Foundation and the sick children of New Zealand to return the money to NZ First.”

This is an absolute humiliation.

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107 Responses to “Starship gives money back to NZ First”

  1. Peter Bickle (35 comments) says:

    Hi all

    Indeed an own goal from Winston First.

    Regards
    Peter Bickle

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  2. Michaels (1,318 comments) says:

    Congrats Starship!!! I donate to only 3 charities a year, every day there are beggers on the street that make me feel bad for saying no to them. I am going to change my charity from here on, and gift my money to Starship and only one other. Winnie can go suck really really really old ladies titties from here on. Only 11 months more of him sucking off ours.

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  3. RebelHeart (123 comments) says:

    “We have decided it’s in the best interest of the Starship Foundation and the sick children of New Zealand to return the money to NZ First.”

    I don’t see how it’s in their best interests. They should have kept the money.

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  4. Paul M. (26 comments) says:

    Well done, Starship.

    However they shouldn’t be out of pocket for being ethical. How about we all head over and donate a little. If enough people do it it’ll become a lot, and the message being sent to Winston will be deafening.

    Will take 30 seconds, and is a good cause (it’s not like the Government’s going to give them enough money to get by – they’re only a hospital).

    http://www.starship.org.nz/donation

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  5. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Please Please Please Ron Mark we need you in parliament, please role these gobblers or get out and form a real party.

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  6. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    Kevin – yes ! Well said.

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  7. Michaels (1,318 comments) says:

    Kevin, I’d almost think about giving Marks a vote if he rolled Mr. Baubles.

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  8. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    He is a voice of reason. He surely can’t support this government, it makes no sense.

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  9. Interested Party (61 comments) says:

    Good to see someone making a stand against this ploy, anyone else who is offered this donation (or part off) will hopefully think twice

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  10. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    ““We have decided it’s in the best interest of the Starship Foundation and the sick children of New Zealand to return the money to NZ First.”

    Can anyone explain why it is the best interests of sick children that the money is returned?

    For example if Bill English, who misappropriate 500 000 dollars in 2002 to pay for a pledge card, donates to the Starship, should they also return that?

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  11. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    Still I am surprised that DPF hasnt commented on the glaring irony of this:
    ” an investigation by the Auditor-General found that golden handshake payments to Mr Mogridge and fellow board member Michael Wall were “unlawful.””

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  12. MajorBloodnok (361 comments) says:

    Well done, Starship… you did the right thing.

    Brickbats to Winston First. Your latest publicity stunt indicates your total arrogance for taxpayers’ money. You do not deserve to still be in parliament.

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  13. Adam Smith (890 comments) says:

    NPOG

    You are yet again attempting to defend the indefensible and to confuse the issue!

    Why do you bother?

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  14. Interested Party (61 comments) says:

    NPOG – This is the local rugby team you are supporting, this is the government of NZ who are responsible for spending over $50billion of our money each year – how can you defend this arrogance

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  15. Interested Party (61 comments) says:

    should read “This is not the local rugby team…”

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  16. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Can anyone explain why it is the best interests of sick children that the money is returned?”

    It would only need explaining to a leftist. People with morals understand the simple point- “honesty is always the best policy”. The Children’s Hospital refused to be part of such a shameful act of duplicity. It would have been damaging to their public image to have gone along with NZ First’s cynical propaganda exercise, and possibly reduced future donations. Get it now NPOG, or is the black and white of it still too hard for someone who lives in the morally grey swamp that you and other socialists occupy?

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  17. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    Well done Starship.

    Clark, Peters etc. take note: this is what a principled stand looks like.

    You may have read about principles. A principle is not a principle until it costs you money. But lack of principles can cost you much more.

    Like the next election.

    Michaels’ and Paul M’s comments give cause for hope that the public will reward Starship with donations at least equalling the amount they gave up.

    Last night on Close Up we met that inspirational young cancer patient who decided to donate to Starship her savings for a Play Station.

    Tonight some kind soul bought her a Play Station and the virtuous circle was complete.

    Let’s hope the 2005 election-theft circle will be completed next year with the deserved trouncing of the supporters of the Electoral Finance Bill.

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  18. Michaels (1,318 comments) says:

    Beautifully said John.

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  19. Adam Smith (890 comments) says:

    WEll said John Ansell

    NPOG – take note, we the people will not tolerate your rubbish any longer, you and your cohorts are gone!

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  20. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    “You may have read about principles. A principle is not a principle until it costs you money. But lack of principles can cost you much more. ”

    I am just confused about the principle here.

    As I understand it Parliament passed legislation the retrospectively legalised Bill English and National’s misappropriation of 500 000 dollars in 2002 and NZ First’s misappropriation of 158 000 dollars in 2005.

    So legally that money now belongs to both National and NZ First respectively.

    NZ First wish to donate that money to Starship.

    What is the principle in turning it down.

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  21. Buggerlugs (1,609 comments) says:

    Starship: “Cheers, you midget fucker.”
    Peters: ‘Can I have a tax receipt?’
    SShip; ‘You sifty fucker.’ fuck off.’

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  22. Buggerlugs (1,609 comments) says:

    NPG – you are clearly a fuckwit
    Kevin – seek help

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  23. Buggerlugs (1,609 comments) says:

    sorry – meant to add – mwahahahahahahahahah! fuck you winnie ron and assorted losers.

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  24. beautox (437 comments) says:

    Well I for one will be giving Starship some money for shafting that turd Peters so beautifully..

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  25. Craig Ranapia (1,915 comments) says:

    Well, the Starship Foundation is certainly getting a cut of our charitable giving budget next year – and I intend to make sure they know why. Hope every Kiwiblog reader is going to back up the well-deserved schadenfreude directed at Winston First with a nice fat donation to an entirely worthy charity that should never have been pimped for political ends in the first place.

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  26. Adam Smith (890 comments) says:

    NPOG

    The Auditor General did not state that 2002 expense was incorrect. Labour wrote the legislation to cover themselves and obviously made sure no retrospective action against them could take place and to confuse and OBFUSCATE and delude weak minds gave you drugs to ensure you thought it was all someone else’s fault.

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  27. Buggerlugs (1,609 comments) says:

    Craig – dig up a bank a/c number for them. I’d like to donate anonymously – and not claim it back on my tax return…unlike the cheap fuckers who populate Winston’s personal worship troupe…

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  28. Buggerlugs (1,609 comments) says:

    Ignore that – just caught Paul M’s post above

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  29. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    I am also moved to donate as well. Unfortunately I don’t have a 150000 dollars. I am also concerned my moral fibre may not be good enough for them to accept my money. Here is my letter to inquire

    Hello,

    I wish to know what is the criteria for donating to the Starship
    foundation.

    For example I have considerable sums to money owing to IRD, which they call
    penalties on student loan repayments. Is the Starship foundation still
    willing to accept a donation from me in this situation?

    I also would not like to donate to a foundation that has board members who accept money as golden handshake payments that have been deemed
    illegal by the Auditor General.

    Can I be assured that no member of the Starship foundation board is in
    that position?

    Regards

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  30. Adam Smith (890 comments) says:

    Everyone

    I know I should not respond to NPOG, but somehow his posts annoy me so much.

    The innuendo and perversion of reality; coupled with his smears makes me irate.

    I will try and rise above his rubbish.

    NPOG in a last expression of my frustration – PISS OFF

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  31. Buggerlugs (1,609 comments) says:

    i have a resonse to NPOG too – STOP SPONGING OFF THE REST OF US, YOU RUNNING DOG OF SOCIALISM BALL LICKING FUCKER.

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  32. Buggerlugs (1,609 comments) says:

    ok, so that was stream of consciousness, but I meant it.

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  33. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    Well, BL, consider the amount of taxpayers funding you have eaten up at the Family Court and other places.

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  34. beautox (437 comments) says:

    NPOG it’s funny you talking about moral fibre. You’re more the kind that fibre brings out the best in.

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  35. democracymum (660 comments) says:

    Parties who illegally overspent tax payers money

    * The Labour Party: $768,000
    * New Zealand First $150,400
    * The Green Party $80,900
    * United Future $63,800

    Parties who also overspent at the last election, but were quick to admit their mistake and paid up.

    * Act $17,800
    * National Party $11,300
    * Maori Party $48

    It is interesting to note that the same parties who were slow to pay up, or haven’t yet paid up are all the same parties who are now backing the Electoral Finance Bill.

    Was the price of their support for the Electoral Finance Bill paid with the passing of the retrospective legislation, which legalised their theft from the public purse.

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  36. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    “Parties who illegally overspent tax payers money”

    Bill English and the National Party 2002 : $500 000 minimum.

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  37. Razorlight (52 comments) says:

    NPOG

    Please can you give us a credible link or reference which shows where the National Party illegaly spent a minimum $500,000.00.

    It is now put up or shut up time Troll

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  38. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    Razorlight

    Contact Robert Buchanan and ask him for the guidelines the AG used for determining if parliamentary communications in 2005 meet were legal or not

    tel: +64 4 917 1500
    e-mail: Robert.Buchanan@oag.govt.nz

    I think you will find the guidelines the AG used easily catch Bill English’s and National’s pledge card in 2002.

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  39. kisekiman (224 comments) says:

    NPOG, what a wanker.

    So you admit to being in default of your student loan obligations, eh? Why aren’t I surprised?

    You’re probably hoping a Labour Govt will make a law writing it all off one day and I suppose you can’t be blamed for thinking that given the example the thieving bastards have set for us all. If only you’d studied medicine…

    Thanks for the link Paul M. I just made a contribution to Starship in appreciation of them wiping their arse with Winnies “donation”

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  40. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    Razorlight

    Can I refer you to page 27 of the AG’s report?

    “The Service and some parliamentary parties also questioned the relevance of the
    law generated under the Electoral Act to the Speaker’s Directions. Their contention
    was that the term “electioneering” had two different meanings:
    under the Electoral Act case law, electioneering means something that is
    intended to persuade a voter to favour a candidate or party in an election, and
    it is not necessary for advertising to explicitly solicit a vote for it to fall in this
    category; but
    under the Members’ Handbook of Services, electioneering means only the
    explicit soliciting of votes, membership, or funding.
    3.26 I am not persuaded that the relevant passage of the Members’ Handbook of
    Services (see paragraph 3.7) will bear that interpretation of electioneering.
    Electoral Act case law, on the other hand, recognises that a person’s voting
    decisions can be infl uenced by information intended to persuade – not just by
    simple requests from parties for their vote. In my view, the Solicitor-General’s
    advice that the Electoral Act approach is relevant in the appropriation context is
    both sensible and reasonable.
    3.27 As noted earlier, advertising for parliamentary purposes clearly excludes
    advertising for electioneering purposes. The appropriation framework and
    relevant guidance make this distinction clear. The Party and Member Support
    appropriations authorise expenditure for parliamentary purposes only. An
    advertisement paid for on the basis that it is for a parliamentary purpose
    therefore cannot lawfully have an electioneering purpose as well.”

    Now the only question is: did Bill English’s 2002 Pledge Card have an electioneering purpose?

    If the answer is “yes” and I believe it is, he and the National party misappropriated around half a million dollars.

    Seems quite straight forward.

    [DPF: Umm on what basis do you estimate the 2002 so called pledge card cost $500,000?]

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  41. cubit9f (356 comments) says:

    Well done Starship. Ethics are about making the right decisions. At times ethical decisions have costs. However, making those correct decisions should not be avoided by a perceived cost in monetary terms.

    In NZ first’s case Winston was mouthing that they had some moral right not to pay their over expenditureback.

    Sorry but the argument has no ethical basis it is simply premised on political expediency. There is never anything ethical about political expediency.

    Well now Winston you still owe $150K. When are you going to pay? Or more likely what is your next sorry chapter of tacky political expediency due. This pseudo moralist and baublist should be the primary target for removal from our parliament.

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  42. cubit9f (356 comments) says:

    On an earlier post Reg said;

    “You have to feel sorry for NZ First supporters, they must feel like proverbial lamp-posts awaiting their regular wetting from the dominant Poodle.”

    No you don’t have to feel sorry. NZ First supporters are not capable of seeing anything wrong with Winston. Although hopefully the numbers are reducing

    They just love his silver tongue and his offer of baubles to them. Oh thank you so much for the God Card Winston. What do I do with it Winston? Don’t know, but it must be terrific because Winston got it for me.

    He has never produced anything but copious amounts of warm air. He has been a problem to all the other parties but they all keep encouraging him. The media love him because he is good copy and they haven’t yet worked out how to handle him in over 25 years.

    Despite his own self promotion he has done nothing but cause instability and a now tiresome sideshow.

    This pseudo moralist and baublist should be the primary target for removal from our parliament.

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  43. side show bob (3,660 comments) says:

    Poor old Winnie what to do now, no one wants his tainted money. It must come as a bit of a shock to Winnie that there are some in our society who will not be used as a political coal post no matter what the inducement. I hope for Starships sake that they benifit from this as they diserve to. Politicians must be some of the most stupid people I know, why did Winnie just not pay the money back and say sorry to the people to NZ. I’m sure this would have earned him more votes then his latests smart arse attempt to endear himself to the people.

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  44. barry (1,317 comments) says:

    All this carry on proves is that there is no such thing as bad PR.

    I dont think either Winston or starship are loosers

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  45. cauld (47 comments) says:

    So I’m inclined to do something like this… Hope others might join me…

    I’ll pledge $10 to Starship for being smart enough to give the money back. I’ll also pledge $10 to every other charity that Winnie offers his dirty money to who in turn refuse it.

    We need about 15,000 people pledging an average of $10 per charity to ensure that parliamentary services get their money back.

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  46. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Well NPoG

    One way that you can illustrate how much you actually care about the misappropration of funds, and show support for the starship for its similarly principled appraoch to dirty money, is to make a donation out of the goodness of your this close to Christmas:

    http://www.starship.org.nz/donation

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  47. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    sorry should read ‘your heart’

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  48. goodgod (1,363 comments) says:

    Does it not seem obvious to the trolls of the Left here, such as NGOP, that their behaviour is the biggest advertisement not to vote Left that money can’t buy?

    I’m happy to overlook their daily electioneering on this blogsite because they kick own goals everytime they post.

    Who would vote for these arrogant, vile, imbeciles?

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  49. Sofia (830 comments) says:

    The Dominion Post says Mr Peters is disappointed but is determined to give the money to a good cause rather than Parliamentary Services.

    This should show whether or not Winston’s brain has stepped out to make room for his ego.
    And it will be interesting to see what charitable cause he came rally to accept stolen tax payer funds after Starship’s ethical stand of turning it down. Perhaps he could offer it to the Exclusive Brethren.

    • We will stay on the cross benches and not accept the baubles of office
    • We established an Oldie Goldie Card but no worthwhile discounts
    • We’re getting 1000 more cops but ones with half the normal IQ
    • We’re giving the money we stole back
    • We’re still giving the money back, but when we have the interest off it
    • We’ve given the money back but for the most political gain and media leverage we have given it to a charity
    • We, having had that donation rejected will try and find another political opportunity to highlight our crass egotism
    • We won’t learn from our mistakes
    . . . and our only hope is that our supporters are to stupid to learn from theirs.

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  50. calendar girl (1,203 comments) says:

    The Auditor-General, who determined that parties should repay to Parliamentary Services the public moneys that they mis-spent in the 2005 election, is an officer of Parliament.

    He is answerable to Parliament solely for his office’s use of public resources, but in law he is independent of both Parliament and the government in the discharge of his office’s duties. This relationship is an element of NZ’s constitutional framework.

    With their “donation” of 30 pieces of silver to Starship, Winston Peters and his party have shown arrogant and unprecedented contempt for the Parliament within which they purport to serve NZ’s interests. They deserve the infamous memory that should continue to attach to their actions.

    But again the question needs to be asked, where did NZ First’s $158,000 come from in the first place?

    If not from the EB or the Business Roundtable, which still-anonymous organisation or individual is next to be maligned?

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  51. Sofia (830 comments) says:

    myself:

    “• We won’t learn from our mistakes
. . . and our only hope is that our supporters are to stupid to learn from theirs.”

    Should of course have been “too stupid to learn from theirs”
    But hey, I was stupid enough to bloody vote to NZF last Election [ I'm really, really sorry New Zealand! ], so I guess I will make a few other mistakes too – like ‘to’ instead of ‘too’ – oh, shit – forget it . . .

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  52. Peter2715626 (24 comments) says:

    I’ve pledged $100 to Starship for being smart enough to give the money back. I’ll also pledge $100 to every other charity that Winnie offers his dirty money to who in turn refuse it.

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  53. Right of way is Way of Right (1,129 comments) says:

    The one person I truly feel sorry for is Ron Mark! I suggest he put his feelers out now, he would be a very worthwhile addition to National’s party list!

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  54. GPT1 (2,106 comments) says:

    I have sent my donation through. Good standards by Starship.

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  55. Frank. (607 comments) says:

    Starship’s rejection of Winston’s gift is now an albatross around his neck and the necks of all those MPs who voted for the Validation Bill

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  56. Frank. (607 comments) says:

    natural party of govt Says:

    December 15th, 2007 at 5:17 am

    This has no bearing at all.

    Crimes Act 1961: Section25: Ignorance of the law is no excuse. More so in the case of MPs.

    Police Commissioner Rob Robinson quoted this section in his Press Release on Helen’s Paintergate

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  57. James W (277 comments) says:

    Would Ron join Act?

    Would Act have him?

    He is wasted in NZ First, and would be left to rot on the backbenches with National.

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  58. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Maybe National should make him an offer, then.

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  59. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    A word to Winston, Helen, Peter, Jeanette and others who think ethics is a county in England:

    If you steal from the public and get caught, you can’t get away with paying the money back to someone else.

    You can’t expect to be praised for your public spiritedness.

    democracymum is dead right: the very parties who misappropriated the most money are those who now want to stop the parties who misappropriated the least money from spending their own money.

    Labour, NZ First, the Greens and UnitedFuture are broke. They’re broke because they broke the law.

    If National, Act and the Maori Party are not broke, it’s because they deserve not to be broke.

    The National Party Leader’s Office managed not to overspend by one single cent. That was not a coincidence. There is a reason for that.

    It was because their leader insisted that they must stay within the rules.

    The contrast with the Labour leadership could not be more stark.

    What goes round in life is supposed to come round. That is the natural law.

    But Labour, NZ First, the Greens and UnitedFuture say natural law is unfair.

    They say we should all turn a blind eye to the inequal scale of their misappropriation (which in Labour’s case should rightly be called theft).

    They say the playing field should be levelled.

    They say what goes round must be stopped from coming round at all costs.

    They invoke the spirit of fairness.

    They pretend that it is only right that they should pass the Electoral Finance Bill to level that playing field.

    But the public are more fairminded. They can see that Labour, NZ First, the Greens and United are being grossly unfair.

    They can see that they are just feathering their own nest. And that the correct name for the bill should be the Election Rigging Bill.

    New Zealanders are not stupid. They can see that the real problem is not the Exclusive Brethren.

    It is the Corrupt Sisterhood.

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  60. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    National and/or ACT need to put aside egos and aspirations and approach Ron Mark with a good offer.

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  61. Craig Ranapia (1,915 comments) says:

    National and/or ACT need to put aside egos and aspirations and approach Ron Mark with a good offer.

    Ego? Sorry, Kev et. al., what exactly would National or ACT get out of handing Ron Mark a safe list placing? When Tau joined National – to the vitriolic contempt from Mark, need I add – he actually put in the hard yards in building credibility and trust to get where he is. And I don’t think I’m talking out of school in saying that he also had to overcome a lot of scepticism from many at the grassroots.

    Sorry if this sounds graceless, but when you lie down with a rabid and not particularly hygienic poodle, you get up with fleas. Ron Mark, and Winston First, have to save their own arses – and the best of British to them if they want to re-make that party into something more than a personality cult.

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  62. Lindsay Addie (1,189 comments) says:

    This cartoon by Mike Moreu sums things up well. The caption asks ‘Prince of Electoral Fees’?

    http://stuff.co.nz/0a17217.html

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  63. MikeE (555 comments) says:

    Ron isn’t a liberal, would hardly fit into ACT .. Nats maybe, they believe in anythng that suits them.

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  64. Craig Ranapia (1,915 comments) says:

    Ron isn’t a liberal, would hardly fit into ACT .. Nats maybe, they believe in anythng that suits them.

    OK, Mike, got to say ACT’s done some shit that would only be recognizable as classical liberalism if viewed through a very thick pair of beer goggles. So let’s send that particular moral high horse to the knackers yard, and see ACT focused on cleaning their own house instead of bitching the Nats. If nothing else, it didn’t compensate for a weirdly ill-focused campaign in ’05.

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  65. Kevin (1,122 comments) says:

    Yes, Craig you’ve got a good point its just that the parties need to weigh up what is good for the country and not just for the people in the party. If Ron could bring in another 100K party votes for National its worth considering thats all. But I do agree that anyone that has stuck out with the curent government has to be considered severely damaged goods.

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  66. Raffles (69 comments) says:

    We all must recall when little Ronnie was telling Simon Power that 4 years ago a review of the Correction H/Q was all that was needed. Next he was out selling the dog mirco chipping crap.
    Then the anti smacking bill and now the EFB.

    What more evidence do you need to convict

    Got the impression the Tui adv is close by.

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  67. side show bob (3,660 comments) says:

    Well said Raffles, souls are cheap if you work NZst.

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  68. fatman43us (166 comments) says:

    Rebelheart – it’s called principle. Peter’s was using Children as pawns in his political game. I applaud the decision to send the money back to the scroats in NZ First. I agree the only one with any sense of homour is Ron Mark.

    Bale out Ron! They’re going down in flames – either tyhat or throw Winnie and Woollerton to the wolves. You may stand some small chance on your own, but don’t hold your breath – you’ve left it very late!

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  69. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    “[DPF: Umm on what basis do you estimate the 2002 so called pledge card cost $500,000?]“

    DPF, I will accept on trust any figure you name which covers the taxpayer cost for printing and distribution. I assume you have access to this data and given your well known enthusiasm for accountability for taxpayer’s funds I have no doubt you will be as eager as I to see it public.

    I note that you dont dispute that the 2002 pledge card fails the test the AG applied in 2005.

    Hence the money was misappropriated.

    [DPF: Well here is the funny thing. I don't even recall the 2002 pledge card. And yes I worked in Bill's office at the time. Whether it fails the AG test would depend on the wording, and when it was published. So how come I can't recall the pledge card? Well my assumption is that it was a pretty minor publication - not the centrepiece of the campaign like Labour's was - and it was so minor it did not register with me. Labour printed 1.5 million and posted one to every home. I don't know but I suspect National probably only had a few ten thousand printed for a fairly minor cost of a few thousand.

    And I have no access to the data. What I would be willing to bet though is that if you did extend the AG test back to the 2002 election also, Labour's debt would again be a magnitude larger than National's]

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  70. John Ansell (874 comments) says:

    DPF: ‘Umm on what basis do you estimate the 2002 so called pledge card cost $500,000?’

    natural party of govt: ‘DPF, I will accept on trust any figure you name’.

    In other words, you made it up.

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  71. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    “Well here is the funny thing. I don’t even recall the 2002 pledge card. ”

    LOL, that is one of the most inadvertantly funny things written here.

    Nobody from National can recall the pledge card.

    “And I have no access to the data.”

    Why not? I thought you were that great believer in open government? Surely the National Party isnt going to hide from the taxpayers what it does with their money?

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  72. Craig Ranapia (1,915 comments) says:

    NPoG:

    Could you save us all a lot of time, and just post a direct link to the Labour Party talking points you’re regurgitating ad nauseum at any given time? And since you’re going to dismiss DPF as a liar whenever he doesn’t say exactly what you want to hear, why even pretend you’re interested in any kind of dialogue?

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  73. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    ” And since you’re going to dismiss DPF as a liar whenever he doesn’t say exactly what you want to hear, why even pretend you’re interested in any kind of dialogue?”

    How can I dismiss someone as a liar who says he knows nothing?

    I am sure the figure is available from Head Office and when DPF comes back with not one but two qualifiers “but I suspect National probably” then we all know what that means.

    Put up the 2002 card cost or shut up.

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  74. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    NPOG:

    Put up the 2002 card cost or shut up.

    your argument to start with. So if you can’t put up an argument then I suggest you shut up now and stop embarrassing yourself.

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  75. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    Something went wrong with the HTML tags. That should have said: This was your argument to start with.

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  76. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    Peak Oil Conspiracy – as a taxpayer don’t you believe the parties should be absolutely accountable and transparent about how they spend our money?

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  77. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    NPOG:

    Yes, of course.

    But, with respect, that’s a distraction. Your argument was that National’s pledge card in 2002 cost $500,000. Frankly, like DPF, I can’t even remember the pledge card – but even if there was one, and I’m happy to see any links you’ve got, you’re the one saying it cost $500,000. And people have asked you repeatedly now to substantiate the allegation.

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  78. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    “Peak Oil Conspiracy – as a taxpayer don’t you believe the parties should be absolutely accountable and transparent about how they spend our money?”

    “NPOG:

    Yes, of course.”

    So DPF, that is two voices demanding that National release an exact accounting of its spending of taxpayers’ money – including the 2002 pledge card.

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  79. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    NPOG:

    Your selective quoting is worse than Sonic – how about addressing the substantive part of my comment?

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  80. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    Hold that DPF, might just be one voice after all.

    “Your selective quoting is worse than Sonic”

    I am sorry, do you or do you think that spending of Parliamentary services allocations should be totally transparent so that the taxpayer can see exactly what his/her money is spent on?

    You seem to be unsure on this one.

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  81. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    NPOG:

    This historical account may be of some interest to you:

    “We understand that the original rationale for not including the Parliamentary Service Commission and Parliamentary Service [in the OIA] was that it was considered constitutionally inappropriate to cover them, since they did not form part of the Executive. However, that rationale now holds less weight because other bodies are now covered which are not part of the Executive, such as the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment. We also note that the Parliamentary Service Commission (although not the Parliamentary Service) is covered by the Ombudsmen Act 1975 which is also concerned with promoting the accountability of public bodies.”

    http://www.knowledge-basket.co.nz/privacy/people/parlsb.html

    Let’s take stock of this thread (insofar as it concerns you):

    You made an allegation. You were challenged repeatedly to substantiate it. You haven’t. Then you’ve shifted gears and said it’s National’s fault for not giving you the information.

    Now, if you want political parties to disclose every single item of spending, then that’s something to be applied across the board. But that’s another debate entirely.

    We’re still waiting for you to substantiate your original allegation. Any chance of that happening?

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  82. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    Dont you see the irony of national party insiders loudly denoucing one estimate but coyly refusing to name the real figure.

    And remember who provided National with this money which they refuse to disclose?

    WE DID!

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  83. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    So you admit your original allegation was made up? You had no basis for it?

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  84. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    “So you admit your original allegation was made up?”

    Not in the slightest. Even DPF admits there was a pledgecard, his point is that “I don’t know but I suspect National probably only had a few ten thousand printed”

    Frankly, from a person who claims to be an advocate of open and transparent government that is not good enough.

    He worked in the Leader of the Opposition’s office at the time. Let him demand from his former colleagues how much taxpayers’ money Bill English spent on producing and distributing the pledge card.

    And then why don’t we here and at National Party Head Office have a whip around and pay that sum to the Starship.

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  85. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    NPOG:

    Even DPF admits there was a pledgecard

    Now you’re spinning. DPF’s words:

    Well here is the funny thing. I don’t even recall the 2002 pledge card. And yes I worked in Bill’s office at the time. Whether it fails the AG test would depend on the wording, and when it was published. So how come I can’t recall the pledge card?

    The original allegation was yours. You’re now complaining that DPF doesn’t get information to support your allegation. But this is deflecting – it’s your allegation to prove. Again, any chance of that happening?

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  86. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    So are you denying there was a pledge card now?

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  87. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    I’ve just realised how selectively you quoted DPF.

    You say:

    Even DPF admits there was a pledgecard, his point is that “I don’t know but I suspect National probably only had a few ten thousand printed”

    DPF said:

    Well my assumption is that it was a pretty minor publication – not the centrepiece of the campaign like Labour’s was – and it was so minor it did not register with me. Labour printed 1.5 million and posted one to every home. I don’t know but I suspect National probably only had a few ten thousand printed for a fairly minor cost of a few thousand.

    Notice how you stopped at “only had a few ten thousand printed” and forgot to mention “for a fairly minor cost of a few thousand”?

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  88. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    You say there was a pledge card. You say it cost $500,000. Yet again I ask: evidence please. Chop chop.

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  89. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    Do you accept there was a pledge card or not?

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  90. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    It doesn’t matter what I accept. You’ve made an allegation. Neither DPF nor I (nor, as far as I can tell, anyone else who’s contributed to this thread) can verify your claim. Surely you can substantiate it?

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  91. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    “It doesn’t matter what I accept. You’ve made an allegation.”

    Honestly, I don’t think the fact that Bill English had a pledge card in 2002 paid for by Parliamentary Services is an allegation but a matter of historical record.

    Do you also think the Treaty of Waitangi is an allegation?

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  92. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    NPOG:

    Honestly, I don’t think the fact that Bill English had a pledge card in 2002 paid for by Parliamentary Services is an allegation but a matter of historical record.

    Excellent – so you can provide a link then? And then perhaps you can sort out that awkward business about it costing $500,000? Oh, and Do you also think the Treaty of Waitangi is an allegation is, as Craig Ranapia would say, a weapon of mass distraction. Let’s focus on your allegation about the cost of a pledge card.

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  93. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    “Excellent – so you can provide a link then? ”

    Knock yourself out
    http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=de&q=%22Bill+English%22+2002+pledge+card&meta=

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  94. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    I could knock myself out. There’s much to ponder in that link. It defaults to Google Australia – but the default language isn’t English.

    But none of that has anything to do with your original allegation: Bill English had a pledge card which cost $500,000.

    Which specific link should I click to find that information?

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  95. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    ” There’s much to ponder in that link”

    Well, try not to stay up to late pondering it.

    “But none of that has anything to do with your original allegation: Bill English had a pledge card which cost $500,000.

    Which specific link should I click to find that information?”

    http://www.national.org.nz/GetInvolved/contactus.aspx

    Say you are a mate of DPF and a strong believer in transparent spending of taxpayers funds.

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  96. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    So you still can’t substantiate that $500,000 figure? Surely you can admit to making it up?

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  97. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    Tick tick boom…?

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  98. hinamanu (2,352 comments) says:

    Flabbergasted!!

    I would not have predicted this outcome in a thousand years.

    No one gives money back, particularly that amount.

    Or perhaps that amount was the reason.

    Winston is swearing, if not audibly, internally.

    He would not have guessed in a thousand years they would give the money back. Now no charitable org will have the stomach to accept the donation.

    I would suggest the Mormons. You can be an elder there in 5 mins flat if you have the finance.

    Which leaves the q of the 158. Its burning Winstons hands, he can’t hold it. I believe the words accountability and integrity will be missing from his campaign speeches next year.

    The campaign over all is just going to be huge fun to listen to as the commies try to make us forget they have been stripping us of our fundamental democratic voice and plying us with the honeyed tones of tax cuts they told us never to expect to hear.

    Incredible, absolutely incredible!

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  99. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    “Tick tick boom…?”

    You’ll have to excuse me. Although I was posting during daylight hours and not in the small hours of the morning even I do not spend all day (let alone night) on kiwiblog.

    The figure that National spent on the pledge card is for them to reveal and refund – since they seem so convinced they misappropriated it.

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  100. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    NPOG:

    I’ll take that as an admission that you can’t prove this allegation:

    For example if Bill English, who misappropriate 500 000 dollars in 2002 to pay for a pledge card, donates to the Starship, should they also return that?

    It was your allegation – hence it is not for National to reveal and refund.

    I suggest you admit to telling lies and stop digging.

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  101. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    “It was your allegation – hence it is not for National to reveal and refund.”

    Yes it is, it is my money.

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  102. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    NPOG:

    Yes it is, it is my money.

    So where’s your proof that National spent $500,000? Oh that’s right, you made it up.

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  103. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    “So where’s your proof that National spent $500,000? Oh that’s right, you made it up.”

    The dispute is not whether National misappropriated the money according to the AG’s definition.

    The issue is how much.

    I think the National Party owes us both, and the taxpayers of New Zealand whose money they stole, an answer.

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  104. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    NPOG:

    The issue is how much.

    You can’t even admit to plucking a figure ($500,000) out of the air? Why’s that too hard for you?

    … and the taxpayers of New Zealand whose money they stole…

    Didn’t we establish the other night that the spending is now retrospectively legalised? So it’s surely a non-issue, courtesy of Labour.

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  105. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    “You can’t even admit to plucking a figure ($500,000) out of the air? Why’s that too hard for you?”

    Why doesnt National and DPF as one of their backroom boys stump up with the figure.

    Don’t you want to know?

    “Didn’t we establish the other night that the spending is now retrospectively legalised? ”

    Except National hold this is unprincipled and unethical.

    So I call on them to be principled and ethical.

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  106. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    Incidently POC, do you post from NZ?

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  107. Peak Oil Conspiracy (3,155 comments) says:

    NPOG:

    Right. So we’ve now established that you made up the $500,000 figure.
    And that you’d like National to reveal the actual figure. An obvious question arises: have you tried asking them?

    If you could bring yourself to move beyond the National smeer-job, there’s actually a broader issue: what disclosure regime (if any) should govern spending by political parties of their Parliamentary Services allocations?

    Seeing as you clearly support a disclosure regime, one wonders how it’d operate in practical terms. Why? Because any such regime wouldn’t just apply to National – even though you’re interested in a particular item of National’s historical spending. Should a political party (or Parliamentary Services) be required to answer every whimsical question from a member of the public? Should there be minimum monetary amounts involved so, for example, one can’t require disclosure of stationery costs (Bic pens and pencil sharpeners) – disclosing this sort of information would be a wasteful use of resources.

    I don’t pretend to have ready answers to hand – but you’ve no doubt thought this through more fully. It’d make for a much more constructive debate than National did this, Labour did that.

    Incidently POC, do you post from NZ?

    No. But hopefully you won’t claim this disqualifies me from informed debate – I like to think I follow NZ politics very closely, even if one perhaps loses some of the subtlety from an overseas vantage point.

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