Raybon Kan on China

March 30th, 2008 at 10:06 am by David Farrar

Raybon Kan in the SST:

But let’s agree on a fact. is a repressive country without free expression. The Chinese government censors news from its people. They censor the internet. And the foreign media can’t report from within.

Much the way I don’t think the North Korean government should run North Korea, I believe China shouldn’t run . Also, I don’t think the Chinese government should run Guangzhou or Beijing or Tiananmen Square. Maybe I’m just hung up on that whole voting thing.

Shooting people for expressing dissent, is the problem.

It’s not just a domestic matter for China.

Pretend the Chinese government was shooting pandas. Imagine the outcry. But monks, well. They’re not endangered.

And we know deep down why we’re being quiet. For the . With a country that isn’t free. For the moola.

Good grief. We close shops at Easter and prosecute the shops that open for the sake of some execution 2000 years ago. Yet, while people are being executed right now, we shut up about it because we want to open shop with China.

He has a point.

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63 Responses to “Raybon Kan on China”

  1. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    And Sky News UK was running 24 hrs of baby fur seal guilt porn the other day which makes you wonder why they weren’t running 24 hrs of dead monk guilt porn doesn’t it – whats that Rupert?

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  2. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    Yeah, but isn’t Raybon a Labour supporter and a lefty? (please correct me if I’m wrong) Its his sector of global society, the big government believers, who give the Chicoms the most international political and moral support. Witness Klark’s beaming supplication to the Chicom Generals when they visit New Zealand. Sickening.

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  3. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    I think you’ve missed the mark there RB. RK is pointing out that the Chinese Communist State is an oppressive dictatorship that kills it’s citizens. Where as the Heleban are just hand wringing lefty champagne socialists.

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  4. kiki (425 comments) says:

    Those who follow their bodies are slaves those who follow their minds are their master’s. We as a country are only after the FTA out of greed so we will become a vassal state.

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  5. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    So DPF, perhaps you’re beginning to waver on whether a free trade agreement with China is a good idea after all?

    [DPF: Not at all. It will benefit NZ greatly, and I think trading with China will over the long term help free up China. But I don't think we should self-censor ourselves over issues like Tibet, just because of the trade deal]

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  6. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “I think you’ve missed the mark there RB”

    No you have expat (as usual.) Learn to read. I have never said, as you allege, that the Klark government behaves in the same way as the Chicom Generals. I’m talking about those governments that on the global stage give moral and political support to oppressive regimes, and when it comes to Red China, Klark is right there along with many other socialist governments and politicians. Chavez for another example. ..and these politicians owe their ascendancy to power to the support of people like Raybon.

    (I’ll say it again. Before coming to these forums, it’s helpful to have basic comprehensions skills.)

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  7. Mike S (229 comments) says:

    Best thing Raybon has said in ages.

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  8. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    I have never said, as you allege, that the Klark government behaves in the same way as the Chicom Generals.

    Oh is that right RB, what is it that the ChiCom Generals do that Helen doesn’t do? Censor opposition (EFA), grind people into poverty and force them into sweatshops (Tax rate), trash religion (The Exclusive Brethren) or engage in racism (Treaty of Waitangi)? Come on mate tell me exactly how those bastards in Beijing are any different to our bitches (male bitches like Kullen included) in Wellington.

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  9. Sushi Goblin (419 comments) says:

    Time for some realpolitik here.

    This isn’t North Korea, or South Africa, or Serbia we are talking about here. It’s one of our largest trading partners, and one who will probably become the second largest trading partner of NZ in the next 10 years. To not make the distinction that there is a difference between China and other nations that we have no interest in is naive to say the least.

    To suggest that we defer our huge financial and trading interests to that of the Tibetans, some of whom were just as authoritarian as the Chinese in the 1950s, might be an insanely bad idea. I abhor the idea of brutal crackdowns on innocent people in faraway lands who want freedom, but I abhor the idea of hurting New Zealanders through a short term political pandering to Keith Locke as well.

    Why would we want to make our dairy farmers, biotech engineers, wool growers, hotel workers, tourism workers and education institutes suffer recessions, closure of markets, diminished opportunities and other hardships? Why would we want every New Zealand consumer to suffer increased prices and reduced choice?

    If we believe that trade is good, and free trade better, then we also accept that with closer economic relations we are also likely to see improvements in cultural and social contact too.

    Trade, especially free trade, brings other benefits with it. All those Chinese tourists coming over to NZ are bound to notice our freedoms and take those ideas back to China. They might even pick up the NZ Herald or the Chinese Herald and see NZ and NZ Chinese perspectives on human rights issues, and take those thoughts back with them.

    Umpteen thousands of Chinese university students coming to NZ to study is bound to also give the ChiCom hierarchy some queasy thoughts in the medium term. Imagine all those permanent resident students, able to vote, casting votes for the first time and seeing the process work. Imagine their then heading back to China in 5 years and telling all their friends how they participated in elections and how they felt special, liberated even to have their say. That is, if they see past the smoke from their Malboros and the sounds of their farty big bore turbo engined rocketships.

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  10. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    Sushi, if we had managed to get a FTA with the USA, we wouldn’t need to be pandering to China… but Klark and her ilk hate the USA for its promotion of democracy in the Middle East, much preferring China’s crushing of dissent in Tibet and Tiannemen. As for Chinese people getting a thrill to participate in elections here, any Chinese person with two brain cells to rub together would see, as we have, that our elections are hardly worthy of the name, with our socialist government manipulating the process and stealing state funds to stay in power… in fact if they have read their communist history they will recognise the symptoms of Czechoslovakia in 1948.

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  11. Richard Hurst (859 comments) says:

    China buys $1.6 billion of New Zealand’s merchandise exports and over $1 billion of services. This is only last years figures and will continue to increase and the FTA will give NZ market share ahead of others. You ,lot really, really, want to throw that all away????
    NZ on the other hand already gives most imports from China and elsewhere tariff free status.

    Jenny Shipley, when she was PM got attacked from the Left because of her bending over backwards for China at APEC but she did it anyway because she understood the importance of China to our economic future .Her own son now works in China for a consultancy firm to advise Western companies going to work in China.

    How is it you imagine NZ maintains its present standard of living????? How do you think we can maintain let alone improve it in the future??? Wave a magic wand?
    NZ has been dealing and trading with countries all round the world who have dubious human rights records for years ,but we do it to survive. We even kept trading with the French straight after the Rainbow Warrior bombing!
    The alternative is to close up shop and go live in communes growing organic cabbage as per Green party madness. A slight exaggeration perhaps but not by much when you look at their policies.
    I’m not going to pretend like Helen and Co that a free trade treaty with China will improve its treatment of its citizens or suddenly cause democracy in Beijing. It won’t. That’s not its purpose. Its purpose is to make NZ companies and enterprises money. That’s it.

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  12. Ryan Sproull (7,153 comments) says:

    You know who else had major trading partners? THE NAZIS.

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  13. reid (16,472 comments) says:

    Agree with everything you say SG, except for the last para. The regime, like that of Burma, is not going to change voluntarily and the voice of the people is not going to force it to.

    Change will arise only from some other dynamic that is not yet visible. For the USSR it was the economic collapse that forced the change and even then it would not have happened if it weren’t for the action of the then Head of the CPSU. A communist regime once installed operates like a military junta, using the power of the military and internal intelligence and police forces to suppress dissent before it gets out of hand. Even when the entire population doesn’t want it, such a regime can maintain power until affected by external dynamics, as was proven by the successful military occupation of all Western Europe during WWII which was only broken in the end, by force majeure.

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  14. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Come on mate tell me exactly how those bastards in Beijing are any different to our bitches (male bitches like Kullen included) in Wellington.”

    The Chicom Generals control the people of China by force and fear and weaponry and torture and murder. Helen’s Klark’s government is restrained by democracy. As much as they have perverted that fragile system, it still does not allow Klark and the rest of the Labour party to behave in the way they might wish to.

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  15. morris (53 comments) says:

    Sushi Goblin. I am not sure the 0.0001% (or whatever it is, does anyone know?) of the Chinese population who have some kind of connection to NZ would be able to make one iota of difference in mainland China even they were so inclined. Economics simply trumps speaking out in favour of basic human rights. Sad, huh?

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  16. David Baigent (172 comments) says:

    Pushmepullu, I look forward to your response to Redbaiter @ 11:51am. Looks like Redbaiter is not just a very loud mouth, there is a brain hidden in all that noise.

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  17. Sushi Goblin (419 comments) says:

    Ryan – Conngrats on invoking Godwins Law. But it wasn’t the trading partners of Nazi germany who behaved sub-human. It was the Nazis. I think you are simply doing a huge disservice to suggest that Waikato dairy farmers or Cantab wool growers are complicit in the repressions of rioting/protesting Chinese.

    Reid – I agree that trade, and free trade with democracies will not in itself open China up to freedoms and democracy. The major factor that causes dramatic change in China is likely to be some kind of internal event that shocks the Chinese political system to its core. But the people who may rise from such an event are those who will be educated, younger and more worldly, and potentially educated in part in a western democracy like NZ.

    Aside from that I would note that at the village/provincial level, the Chinese government has permitted basic elections to choose village elders.

    But at a basic, financial and realpolitik level, could anyone explain to me how allowing Australia to have a free trade agreement with China, and us not having one because we threw our toys out of the cot in 2008, helps improve our standard of living?

    If you don’t like Chinese human rights abuses, fine. Put down that HP laptop (made in China), that child’s stuffed toy, or that shirt you like in the trendy shop on Queen St. Buy Taiwan or Malaysia instead. But please don’t take out your own personal thoughts on the economic opportunities afforded to Kiwi farmers, scientists, chefs and language teachers.

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  18. Right of way is Way of Right (1,122 comments) says:

    Realpolitik aside, how much advantage will there be in this arrangement for New Zealand in any case. Free trade agreements are all well and good in principle, but a free trade agreement with a repressive socialist regime in which workers rights are basically non existant? If I was employed in a primary producing industry this would make me very nervous.

    I also note that there has been an increase in visits by Chinese military personnel here in the last few years. Ships visits by PLAN ships and the like, with nary a whimper from the anti-nuclear crowd. The Chinese are a Nuclear power too. Could you imagine the fracas if the US sent a couple of ships? This really confirms my theaory that the Anti-Nuclear crowd is largely anti-american in disguise!

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  19. Sushi Goblin (419 comments) says:

    Right of Way – why exactly would a farmer or sharemilker feel very nervous about Chinese workers rights? I would suggest they are more nervous about drought conditions, the price of fuel, NZ labour costs and their interest rate costs to service the mortgage or business loan?

    As for Chinese military visits, I agree. But thats a completely separate issue from a free trade agreement. I was under the impression that the PLAN are happy to guarantee that their ships are conventionally powered and not armed with nuclear weapons (because none of their surface ships have those capabilities, and the whole world knows it). However, the Americans maintain a “neither confirm nor deny” policy, which means we can’t have that guarantee.

    Sentimentally, I agree with you though. I would like to see closer NZ-Australia-US military relations. Why we continue to complain about nuclear powered ships when the USA would willingly oblige us by sending a non nuclear powered and armed frigate or destroyer is beyond me (though they would still officially maintain neither confirm nor deny). Their Arleigh Burke destroyers are gas powered, and the only armament capable of being nuclear is their tomahawk missile, but they don’t keep nukes on surface ships anymore.

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  20. tom hunter (4,858 comments) says:

    However, the Americans maintain a “neither confirm nor deny” policy, which means we can’t have that guarantee …… the only armament capable of being nuclear is their tomahawk missile, but they don’t keep nukes on surface ships anymore.

    Sorry to threadjack, but…..The “neither confirm nor deny” policy was the final reason that the 4th Labour government used for not inviting a US warship – the argument being that they could therefore not guarantee that such an invite would not breach the newly minted anti-nuclear legislation.

    So – why could not a smart government in the future simply state that they will be ignoring the US Navy policy as a piece of bureaucratic nonsense that is both outdated and overridden by Bush 41’s order to remove nuclear weapons from all surface ships, and which has been upheld by subsequent US Presidents.

    As such, anyone who is truly convinced that “niether confirm nor deny” is hiding the possibility of nuclear weapons being on board a surface ship visiting NZ could cooperate with US activists in presenting evidence at the courts-martial of that ship’s commander, who would clearly be disobeying a direct order from their Commander In Chief if they cannot deny that a nuclear weapon is on board.

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  21. Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left (786 comments) says:

    “I’ll say it again. Before coming to these forums, it’s helpful to have basic comprehensions skills.”
    Yes you do keep saying that Redbaiter
    and yet you still turn up without them time and time again

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  22. baxter (893 comments) says:

    Since NZ signed free trade agreements with Singapore and Thailand imports from those countries skyrocketed while New Zealand’s decreased.I can’t see any reason why China should be any different. No doubt the Chinese will be interested in direct investment in our strategic assets like maybe Auckland Airport, Fonterra, Pike River Coal.

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  23. kiwitoffee (383 comments) says:

    I’m waiting for our Chinese friends to say they’d like to bring one of their nuclear warships to NZ.

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  24. side show bob (3,660 comments) says:

    I’m not sure it signing a FTA with China is right or wrong but for people who think it’s wrong they will no doubt never step thur the doors of the big red barn again. I believe that unless China comes to make us slaves then we will be one of the best friends they can have, how many other countries have the climate, area, skilled people to feed a vast number of people.

    SSSL I can understand RB and my comprehension skills are not at the top end of the scale but I doubt very much that it’s RB’s comprehensions skills that get up your nose.

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  25. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    I returned to NZ about five years ago. Two things marked me: the firt a remark by a young kiwi wo informed me ‘Here in New Zealand it’s almost seen as uncool to get excited about anything.’ and the other thing was the proliferation of two-dollar shops.
    Specifically i have to make the observation here if you want to pay two bucks for a piece of shit like a hacksaw that immediately blunts itself if you use it on anything tougher than tannelised wood, or allen keys that respond to the bolt’s resistance by instantly rounding themselve, then fine. But this is the tip of the rather deep iceberg. What I foresee is a sitiuation where china will ‘flood’ NZ’s market with cheap crap made by semi-slave labour in environments of extreme pollution, while we will be busting our asses trying to persuade them to buy expensively made goods from New Zealand. But here’s the rub, eventually nothing will be made in NZ because it will be cheaper to make it in China, and the importation of cheapo stuff will continue unabated. The nett result will be that theNZ dollar will be worth diddly squat because it is not backed by an infrastructure of any note, and the Chines economy will suck the remaining value out of NZ’s infrastructure.
    All this time we will be patting ourselves on the back for having great human rights and a wonderful record on pollution, carefully ignoring the fact we have exported our pollutin to China and are happy to buy shit goods made by slaves.
    Anyway I have nothing against ‘China’ per se. But getting into bed with China will be a big mistake.
    fast forward 100 years. Tuhoe demonstrate against a Chinese-dominated NZ parliament and get shot at. Who here will complain? Seemed we don;t give a shit when it happens to the Tibetans. The Chinese system sees 10 years as like an hour, a hundred years like a day. Think they don;t have a plan for New Zealand? Oh do get real. NZ culture will simply roll under it. Economic imperialism is a valuable first step, but ifit can’t suppress the ballot, it will use the bullet..
    Or am I xenophobic and paranoid? I only ask for information.

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  26. Sushi Goblin (419 comments) says:

    Lee, you have successfully demonstrated an ignorance of comparative advantage.

    I suggest you read up on how economies prosper. NZ will not make children’s toys, laptops, toasters or cheap consumer goods to make itself prosperous when trading with China. It will make those things it makes best – milk powder, cheese, wool products, lamb, education, tourism etc.

    Whether we decide to buy cheap Chinese goods like your allen keys, or moderately better priced goods from elsewhere like Slovakia, or higher priced goods from developed nations like the USA or Germany is up to the end consumer. If China manufactures poor products like your allan key example, then people will end up buying elsewhere.

    Your post is predicated on the fact you think NZers are fools. What a terrible shame you think that. I’m far more optimistic of my fellow kiwi, 2005 election result notwithstanding, because I know most Kiwis don’t go buying shit products over and over again just to save money. If they are unhappy with what they buy, they’ll be as rational as most other people and buy something better.

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  27. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “Or am I xenophobic and paranoid? I only ask for information.”

    Thanks for the laff with your comments on the two dollar shops Lee. Very true. As to your question, maybe you’re not xenophobic and paranoid enough. See what the commie Chinese are up to that have settled in Canada. (probably a lot like those in NZ who protested the use of Mao’s photo on the cover of a student magazine)

    http://en.epochtimes.com/news/8-3-29/68263.html

    Excerpt- Angry Chinese turned on the Tibetan protesters, hollering “Dalai Lama die there!” “Dalai Lama lies!” “Liars, liars!” and “Leave Canada!” They also sang communist party songs.

    ……and do you know what so much of the money rolling into China is spent on? Weapons of war, most notably nuclear submarines.

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  28. jafapete (757 comments) says:

    “……and do you know what so much of the money rolling into China is spent on? Weapons of war, most notably nuclear submarines.”

    And there I was thinking that it was American banks.

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  29. Fred (163 comments) says:

    Lee, who isn’t pissed off with cheap crap, it now takes effort to find stuff that will last, or even work. So you don’t trust the Chinese, but what makes you feel safer with America. The reality is that we don’t rate much above Tasmania in the scheme of things (well I think the average Chinese knows about NZ but the American doesn’t). But without looking for conspiracies it is interesting that we are prepared to accommodate the odd taniwha here and there but when it comes to the Falun Gong even the City Council gets into the act.

    Edit; Well they are going cheap!

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  30. kehua (225 comments) says:

    Lee C. I posted some time ago about China `setting` up Fonterra for the big fall, pretty much the way that Korea has screwed the Timber Industry. High prices to set up the production and fund the conversion to Dairying and then make ridiculous demands on quality control to build in high production costs and then scuttle the lot with a couple of `nil` orders causing huge stockpiles and storage cost. This will then be followed by a single buying/single selling regime. Hey Presto ! now the Chinese not only have Browns Bay, Albany, Glenfield and Howick but will probably be providing finance to every `once was rich and independent` dairy farmer in the country. Don`t believe me? Checkout who owns the mortgages on half the farms in GB, comrade !

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  31. honey badger (37 comments) says:

    Redbaiter: “isn’t Raybon a Labour supporter and a lefty?” You know that’s an unfounded presumption. May I ask what basic comprehension skills you base it on? Since none, why presume to suggest it?

    I am already exasperated by the amount of Chinese crap in our stores. I needed crushed garlic on my latest trip to the supermarket and they had three major brands: read the small print, all from China.

    We are exporting not only our dairy (which we can hardly afford ourselves these days) but also the knowledge & intellectual property that go with it to China under this “free trade agreement”.

    In the not-too-distant future, we can expect is our supermarket shelves to be filled with Made in China cheese and butter.

    This is progress? This is how we thrive in a global economy How about a careful view to retaining our own industry, as well as rewarding our own initiative and self-sufficiency?

    This is how our country expects to grow our own ideas and industry?

    By selling them off freely in exchange for cheap consumer products and foodstuffs of far inferior quality?

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  32. longbow (118 comments) says:

    > Imagine all those permanent resident students, able to vote, casting votes for the first time and seeing the process work

    heh Sushi

    i casted my first vote in China the year i turned 18.

    it’s certainly far from a western election system. national people’s congress is a multi-tierd election system. citizens vote for district representitives, who then vote for city representitives, who then vote for provincial and finally the national representitives. the national representitives vote for the nation’s chairman, premier and what not.

    the representitives are not necessarily communisty party members. there are 8 smaller parties. many of their members are in the congress and taking leading positions at national level. the problem is they can never be ruling party according to the consitution, but “participating party”.

    the representitives are not necessarily associated with any party. there are non-party representitives at all levels. most of them are voted because they have good publicity whether by being success in their careers, or active in politics or sometimes being in the entertainment industry. their proposals and questions (to the communist party government) in the national people’s congress are the result of talking to lower level representitives and normal citizens and are often criticized publicly. they have the power to write a new law or modify existing laws including consitiution.

    there have been voices of direct election. that won’t happen anytime soon. it would be extremely difficult to count votes from 1.3 billion people across the country. and currently there are no other parties that even has remotely close number of members as the communist party (last time i checked it was over 70 million, including some of my relatives and classmates).

    i think many of you do have good wishes. but apparently some of you took it for granted.

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  33. natural party of govt (461 comments) says:

    Some may consider it small, trivial and technical point.

    But the Chinese government isnt shooting Tibetan monks.

    Its a curious example of Orientalism that western liberals are convinced the highest, purest and only genuine expression of Tibetan identity is that of a monk.

    Perhaps we should accuse Dell, Microsoft et al of committing cultural genocide in Ireland as the wealthy celtic tiger is leaving the Catholic Church increasingly meaningless.

    I mean remember the good old days, when the Irish used to believe in leprechauns and force 14 year old rape victims to carry babies to term?

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  34. longbow (118 comments) says:

    as with the cheap crap “Made in China”, all i wanted to say is, blame the importers.

    those “cheap crap” won’t appear in any deparment store in China.

    compare the clothing or cookware in Warehouse and Farmers, you might have a better idea of the quality difference. and even Farmers, are importing the bargins. don’t even mention $2 shop.

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  35. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    Gee whiz Redbaiter, you’re sure defensive! There is no ‘global collusion of lefties’ to support the ‘chicom’ hegemony. Thats the point buddy, you missed it.

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  36. longbow (118 comments) says:

    natural

    that was a point i failed to address.

    the Chinese communist party has learned a lot since 1989. they learned a lot on how to handle riots. armed police are equipped with rubber bullets, net projection guns, water guns and other non lethal weapons. and in all the pictures published till today, there is not a single one with a Chinese armed police holding a military issued assault rifle.

    in fact, all they got is a shield and a helmet, some with batons. how the *&^%$#@! did they shoot monks dead?

    why no one care about the Chinese civilians died in the riot? public properties were burnt, even firefigher’s trucks were burnt. 5 girls were burnt to death in a fashion shop. not eye catching enough huh? where is your sympothy on that?

    it’s just funny when enough people repeat something long enough few people would question it.

    millions spent each year on preserving the cultures of minority groups, i think they really need a good PR person. Dalai’s English lession certainly paid off.

    don’t even mention how Nobel prize can be wrong.

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  37. expat (4,050 comments) says:

    The Chinese government are breeding the regional ethnic races out of existence by shipping in large numbers of Chinese settlers and watering down the local culture. It’s a practice that s been used by the Communist party for years and is justified under the auspices of economic development. Development of Chinese business in ethnic regions.

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  38. Redbaiter (13,197 comments) says:

    “and in all the pictures published till today, there is not a single one with a Chinese armed police holding a military issued assault rifle.”

    Yeah right..

    http://www.friendsoftibet.org/main/execution.html

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  39. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    We traded with Russia, while they were in Afghanistan (and yet boycotted the Olympics).

    We trade with the USA and they are still in Iraq (on the false pretence of this being an act of self defence because of some lie about WMD – talk about overhyping the original issue of verification of the destruction of WMD under the terms of the UN cease-fire with Iraq. You see the regime was bluffing everyone as to its WMD capability. It could have said it had no WMD to destroy but this would have defeated the purpose of the WMD ghost to intimidate Iran and local opposition – so the hard nosed PNAC crowd exploited this as a pretext to justify a takeover) and while they abuse the constitutional rights of Americans and their imprisoned guests.

    New Zealand’s policy on China over Tibet is similar to that of other nations. There is no nation that detemines trade with others based on their being a democracy, or there being no abuse of minorities or any lack of free speech or any abuse of human rights.

    So why is there the suggestion that we should begin with China? Why not Saudi Arabia for lack of equality for women?

    Is it all a link to a nation hosting the Olympics having to live up to Olympian ideals beyond the reach of mere mortals ouside of European Chrstendom?

    Is holding the Olympics to be reserved for democratic nations?

    What about democratic nations that are imperially occupying other nations? If so, then the UK will have to be out of Iraq (Afghanistan may be a genuine case of self defence given the attack organised from its territory and the prior lack of recognition for the Taleban government and its subsequent human rights abuses compounded this) by 2012.

    Until there is some standard to be applied equally on the nations we trade with (which we then do not apply on China), the idea that we do not stand up to China because of our trade … is nonsensical.

    Its just a pretext for us to moralise about China in particular – why people do this – to embarrass Labour over getting a free trade deal? How, we have the same policy as the rest of the world to China.

    In the end this is about the Chinese as a new rising power and their hosting the Olympics while not being good Europeans …and also of our “need” to assimilate Asian immigrants into our values system. I guess they can see that we are trying to address our Treaty issues and are not total hypocrits – well not all of us.

    PS Declaration : I like the idea of bringing labour use regulation, resource managment and environment policy (pollution) and carbon energy use into WTO trade policy. We should have fair trade. But human rights is a political matter.

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  40. GNZ (228 comments) says:

    Bottom line China is big and it is successful. So much so that one day China will be telling us what to do – so lets hope they get some progress on human rights by the time that happens. Saudi arabia will never be telling anyone significant what to do.

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  41. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    The Chicom Generals control the people of China by force and fear and weaponry and torture and murder. Helen’s Klark’s government is restrained by democracy. As much as they have perverted that fragile system, it still does not allow Klark and the rest of the Labour party to behave in the way they might wish to.

    I never thought I would see the day that you tell people Klarke is not as bad as they think, Baiter. Sure, maybe now she doesn’t put tanks into the streets (because she got rid of our tanks and got LAVs instead… nice one Helen), but she’s shown she cares not a whit about the will of the people and stolen election after election. The only reason she doesn’t pull Tianemens is because she hasn’t needed to, yet… I guess the people of New Zealand are more strongly infected with the brain-eating disease that is leftism than we thought.

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  42. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    [DPF: Not at all. It will benefit NZ greatly, and I think trading with China will over the long term help free up China. But I don’t think we should self-censor ourselves over issues like Tibet, just because of the trade deal]

    DPF, I realise this is your position, but I have seen no evidence that separating free trade and Tibet is anything other than wishful thinking. Our government’s stance clearly shows that the Chinese will not offer a FTA unless we remain silent on the Tibet issue. So given that it is not possible to have the cake and eat it too, what is your preference? ‘Free’ trade or free speech? Or do you think that if we were to speak out over Tibet, the agreement would go ahead?

    [DPF: Yes, because they would look very very bad if they dumped at the last second an FTA which has taken years to negotiate, because of criticism over Tibet.]

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  43. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    Interesting stuff – I actually came downstairs and deleted my last post, but it appeared anyway. I deleted it because Ithought about it and considered it might be seen as a xenophobic rant. But I am not alone. It is not abot the moral relativism of trading with other bad states. I just think that China has a need to export its goods and people and NZ is prime real estate. Shit I’d look at NZ strategically if I were China thinking ‘I want that one so let’s work to make it so over the next fifty – one hundred years.’ I think the future will indicate this FTA was a valuable first step to establishing Chinese hegemony over the Pacific triangle. So, my philosphy is you don’t invite the vampire over the threshold.

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  44. Craig Ranapia (1,915 comments) says:

    Or do you think that if we were to speak out over Tibet, the agreement would go ahead?

    Oh, to be entirely cynical ‘speaking out’ is all very well – as long as you do it behind closed doors and its never backed up with any embarrasing action.

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  45. Pascal (1,969 comments) says:

    SPC: But human rights is a political matter.

    No, it is not a political matter. It’s a matter of principles.

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  46. dad4justice (8,222 comments) says:

    Klark has no principles nor children to worry about when Mr Panda get stroppy and bash kiwi’s into dirt.
    She is selling our soul to a cruel regime of bastard pigs !!

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  47. reid (16,472 comments) says:

    Have a look at this photo, showing Chinese soldiers holding monk’s robes.

    http://buddhism.kalachakranet.org/chinese-orchestrating-riots-tibet.htm

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  48. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    “In the end this is about the Chinese as a new rising power and their hosting the Olympics while not being good Europeans …and also of our “need” to assimilate Asian immigrants into our values system”

    Yeah, like the round eye nations didn’t want the slant eye nations to hold the Tokyo or Seoul Olympics either right? Stop making shit up.

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  49. PhilBest (5,121 comments) says:

    Natural Party Of Government: “I mean remember the good old days, when the Irish used to believe in leprechauns and force 14 year old rape victims to carry babies to term?”

    And back in the good old days, how many 14-year-olds got raped?

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  50. PhilBest (5,121 comments) says:

    Should we not be afraid of the possibility that the Chinese economic reform is part of a ploy, and that the Communists intend to just nationalise everything and expropriate everyone again one day once they have the most possible to gain from it? Come to think of it, even democracy is no guarantee that that couldn’t happen when the voters are dumb enough……..

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  51. PhilBest (5,121 comments) says:

    “expat” yesterday at 10.36 AM, used the term “Heleban”. I LIKE IT. Lets run with it, guys !

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  52. peterquixote (231 comments) says:

    I going to kick up a serious fuss about our mayor here in Christchurch du8des

    Slick Bob say search his unconscious deeply and he discover that it ok to taok drivel
    he go to China and suck,
    he sold us out every time he open his claptrap PC society i get richer mouth

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  53. peterquixote (231 comments) says:

    Here’s Slick Bob on China dudes
    “I have examined my un”conscience ” and I dont understand anything except privilege
    Slick Bob say that he unconscious deeply and he discover nothing except slick wife agree
    that that it ok to talk drivel
    I go to China and suck, with Helengrand
    I want to be PM NZ and talk shit forever on TV
    look watch me dudes standing in the middle of the road represent nothing except privilege and inner city development,
    what you say dudes I on the Press every morning
    Newspapers rule dudes
    I go to China now,

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  54. peterquixote (231 comments) says:

    here in Christchurch we suck China dudes,
    we spent like a zillion on junkets with our wives and that in the last ten years
    Here’s Slick Bob Parker Mayor for one term on China dudes
    “I have examined my un”conscience ” and I don’t understand anything except privilege
    Slick Bob say that he unconscious deeply and he discover nothing except that his slick wife agree
    that that it ok to talk drivel to the Christchurch Press morons
    His wife say you think I marry you for Slick Bob except for privilege and Society
    I go to China and suck, with Helengrand
    I want you Slick liar Bob to be PM NZ and talk shit forever on TV
    look Bob say check this out
    watch me dudes standing in the middle of the road represent nothing except privilege and inner city development,
    what you say dudes I on the Press every morning
    Newspapers rule dudes
    I go to China now,

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  55. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    pascal

    Politics is the issue of principles – trade is business.

    Grant S

    Were there one party dictatorships in Tokyo and Seoul? Stop trying to make up a strawman and evade my point. Its intellectual cowardice.

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  56. Pascal (1,969 comments) says:

    SPC: Politics is the issue of principles – trade is business

    You missed the point, unfortunately. You can dismiss gross human rights abuses in the name of business. I say that if a person / nation has principles it will stand up for what it believes – even if going against those beliefs has a negative impact on yourself. Because otherwise – all this posturing and politicking – it’s just empty words with nothing behind them.

    A bit like selling your principles for a few bob under the table, eh?

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  57. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Pascal

    All I posted was that, if a nation has principles they wish to apply – they be applied in all cases, rather than selectively.

    How exactly would you apply these principles across the board in terms of trade?

    We have no capability to have any impact ourselves. So we are reliant on others agreeing.

    WTO agreements don’t even include labour laws and resource management and the environment and Kyoto, or real free trade in agriculture – so where is the consensus on principle and trade? There is none. The chances of bringing human rights into WTO trade agreements is zero. The impact of our trade boycott decisions on others close to zero (except with dependent Pacific states, – acting the way way Russia does those reliant on gas supplies?).

    So why is this human rights principle in trade suddenly an issue for some?

    Because Tibetans mobilised a protest to embarrass China before the Games? (other than that nothing has changed) – we knew China suppressed protest, as Singapore and many other regimes also do.

    We traded with Russia before and during its occupation of Aghanistan – only boycotting the Games (Muldoon pre 1981 Tour – the British went to Moscow). Is this what you propose on Beijing – except where we lead a boycott (rather than the USA then promoting Islamists as an agency against a left wing puppet government alternative in Kabul) and wait for others to follow …

    What exactly apart from trying to exploit this issue for political purposes, while National keeps its head down on the issue, because they would be doing what the current government is doing, is this really about.

    We object to China suppressing protest – what exactly was the Tuhoe invasion last year about … (apart from some claim of gun possession) – warning people they could be treated as terrorists if they protested for certain causes … What if they refuse to sign the trade deal because of our oppression of indigenous people …

    Where would human rights priincples become a cover for trade protectionism? Thus it’s most unwise to bring selectively applied principle into trade business.
    I

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  58. Grant S (146 comments) says:

    “Were there one party dictatorships in Tokyo and Seoul? Stop trying to make up a strawman and evade my point. Its intellectual cowardice”

    Stop saying stupid shit by suggesting the Euros attitudes against China [over Tibet] are based on fear of non-WASP’s & white racism. Its imilicit assumption and leftist groupdividual think.

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  59. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    Grant S

    “Stop saying stupid shit by suggesting the Euros attitudes against China [over Tibet] are based on fear of non-WASP’s & white racism. Its imilicit assumption and leftist groupdividual think.”

    Is it untrue, just because you so label this idea as leftist/collective? And the point is not actually about race, except where cultural supremacy as the new imperialism is premised on a race based supra-nationalism.

    And within the wider point why the exceptionalism in the case of China – is singling out China not something done collectively by others?

    Ultimately the issue is about common standards – for those who profess to have principle, to then apply them in selective ways, is in breach of equality before the law upon which premise individual rights derive.

    So much for your weak attempt to dismiss questioning of the right’s agenda here.

    PS

    The Chinese are perfectly (historically) capable of playing the cultural supremacy game (on their own terms), so setting a bad example is not a sustainable option.

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  60. Pascal (1,969 comments) says:

    SPC: What exactly apart from trying to exploit this issue for political purposes, while National keeps its head down on the issue, because they would be doing what the current government is doing, is this really about.

    I don’t speak for National, Labour or any other party. I am speaking from a personal perspective and indicating that it is not politics, but principle that should be applied to this matter. If we condemn a nation for their actions politically, we damn well better not be signing some kind of agreement with them to sweeten our pockets.

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  61. SPC (5,619 comments) says:

    So you are saying, we should not criticise them if we intend to go ahead with the bi-lateral free trade deal …

    Or that having a political ciriticism means not having new bi-lateral trade deals … just trade within WTO and APEC rules …

    Did you oppose bi-lateral free trade with Singapore over their suppression of free speech, right to protest – might oppose any deal with ASEAN on this ground …

    Do you think occupation of Iraq is reason not to make a deal with the USA, or their imprisonment of people outside of international law, acknowledged human rights abuses ….

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  62. Richard Hurst (859 comments) says:

    Peterquixote- what you have to say is not only utter inaccurate dribble but also becuase of its mocking tone towards Chinese ESL speakers which borders on hate speech, racist. Go back to the gutter you came out of.

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  63. peterquixote (231 comments) says:

    i don’t do gutter Richard I do reality

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