The silence of the left

July 21st, 2008 at 11:14 am by David Farrar

It has now been over two and a half days since the explosive news that did donate $100,000 – to Winston Peters’ legal expenses. Regardless of the legal issues over technicalities this is a major political issue regarding transparency – especially as Glenn was lobbying Peters (and Clark via Williams) for a diplomatic appointment.

So how have the major left wing blogs covered the issue?

The Greens’ Frog Blog has not said a word (except for a humourous reference in passing) yet has managed almost a dozen posts on other issues . And what of the Greens MPs? Russel Norman spoke volumes on National’s secret trusts. Has he not been motivated to even say a single word of concern?

Russell Brown devotes oh one paragraph to it today, and expresses no view at all on the rights or wrongs. He merely finds it funny that it involves a stolen e-mail. On that issue Russell might note that Owen Glenn has not in any way claimed the e-mail was stolen or that he is upset it was. He may like to reflect on why that is!

No Right Turn has, as expected, condemned it. While sometimes I get very upset with his posts (and I am sure vice verssa) he does consistently show the difference between a principled left blog and one which doesn’t want to upset mates in Government.

Tim Selwyn at Tumeke puts himself in the same category as No Right Turn, with his post.

The Standard has managed five posts since then, and of course none at all on the issue. When they do blog, it will be to say that it is all nothing to do with Helen.

The self-proclaimed funny and cool 08wire (run by a recent former staffer for Clark) hasn’t managed to find anything funny to say on the issue.

It would be too much to expect Labour candidates Grant and Jordan to have commented, but how about Tony Milne?

The Progressive’s unofficial Prog Blog has said nothing on the issue.

Some of the smaller blogs have commented I am sure – I’ve only had time to check the larger ones out.

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125 Responses to “The silence of the left”

  1. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    It suggests complicity. Who is to bet the left will lead with smears of Glenn. But end up with a pre-election resignation from Williams?

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  2. Pascal (1,969 comments) says:

    On the plus side, I think Philip John was defending it by comparing it to National. Or 9/11. I can’t remember. He was off on some tangent about what somebody else did 15 years ago as if that excused this type of behavior. You know how he gets.

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  3. dave strings (608 comments) says:

    On the basis of ‘benefit of doubt’, perhaps there’s a slight moratorium on the basis of a death in the family.

    Unlikely, improbable even, but possible

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  4. Charlie Tan (255 comments) says:

    Oh please. Like you always take your handlers to task when they cock up.

    [DPF: You are new here so I must assume you are being deliberately misleading. I have criticised National MPs and the Party on many occasions. My 1st column for NBR in fact was pretty down on them for the timidity of the ACC policy. I may be more gentle in my words with National (as I do have relationships with many there) but I don't think I can be accussed of ever ignoring such a major scandal as this]

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  5. Tane (1,096 comments) says:

    Pretty desperate stuff David. While you’ve made something like a dozen posts on the topic over the weekend others of us have been off having lives rather than blogging obsessively over the latest mini-scandal. Personally I’ve been out of cellphone range for most the weekend and first heard about the Winston’s admission when I woke up to Morning Report this morning.

    From what I’ve heard I’m not impressed and it certainly raises questions about transparency in donations, but I haven’t really had time to get my thoughts in order to an extent that I’ll have time to write about it today. Maybe one of the other Standardistas will if they have the time or inclination, but there’s certainly no conspiracy of silence. Your efforts to portray us and our fellow left-wing bloggers as avoiding the issue are really quite pathetic.

    [DPF: Yes I have blogged a lot on it. As it has led the headlines for the last three days, I consider it worth covering in detail. I have also (if I can say so) done some useful analysis of the issues which many media have said they found useful.

    I never said there was a conspiracy of silence. Just a timidity to denounce unacceptable behaviour, because he is needed by Helen to govern]

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  6. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    You were irresponsibly silent for at least two years after the issue of Peak Oil became mainstream DPF, and even then you’ve only made one post on it since 2006.

    Like climate change was in 2005 (remember John Key said that “kyoto is an absolute hoax”?), Peak Oil is an elephant in the room that the National Party doesn’t want to talk about because it means collective action, and it shows up one of the prime deficiencies of the “free-market” approach – resource depletion and the inefficient use of resources.

    Your accusations of silence from the left on this mini-scandal comes across as a little hypocritical considering your near complete refusal to even acknowledge this massive issue.

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  7. unaha-closp (1,165 comments) says:

    Oh please. Like you always take your handlers to task when they cock up.

    Was unaware of any handling of frogblog by Owen Glenn or Winston Peters, but as Charlie notes this silence suggest a link…

    ;-)

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  8. getstaffed (9,186 comments) says:

    … latest mini-scandal …

    Tane, if Key had overdue library books the smear-o-meter will be redlining over there at The Slanderard.

    Yet when our Foreign minister who has very publicly nailed his ‘honest and integrity’ colours to the public mast (and who is holding the balance of power in the NZ Government) is suddenly mixed up with shady donations, possible electoral fraud, tax dodging and deceiving the public… you haven’t had time to get [your] thoughts in order.

    If you open your eye there will still be one closed!

    DPF: Well done. You’ve hit a nerve. Apply more acid.

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  9. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    DPF

    Allow me to translate Tane’s comments; “Your efforts to portray us and our fellow left-wing bloggers as avoiding the issue are really quite pathetic”

    What this really means is “You have exposed us again, if John Key was in the gun for a donation that he denied the left wing blogs would be in melt down mode, now please stop highlighting our shocking bias, as you well know anything the left do can be justified if it means we retain power”

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  10. Pascal (1,969 comments) says:

    While you’ve made something like a dozen posts on the topic over the weekend others of us have been off having lives rather than blogging obsessively over the latest mini-scandal.

    Of course, if John Key hadn’t tipped a waitress the requisite 20% but only 15% once when he was in his early twenties and traveling overseas I’m sure we’d have had around 20 posts about how he “hates workers”. But I understand. You guys are only an attack blog funded by your political masters and there probably isn’t any overtime in it for you to look at the real issues.

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  11. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Tane

    Given that Klark is going to bribe the students can you tell me if the money is going to come from Health, Education, Policing or is she still planning to cut the pension to pay for this?

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  12. Manolo (13,783 comments) says:

    FLG Tane wrote: “… rather than blogging obsessively over the latest mini-scandal.”

    Mini-scandal? This is third-world, banana-republic stuff, and you call it a mini-scandal?
    The New Zealand Foreign Affairs minister embroiled in a secret cash donation from a wealthy person (and staunch supporter of the Labour Party), whom coincidentally is/was seeking the honorary consulate in Monaco, a mini-scandal?

    You and your comrades are scraping the bottom of the barrel, indeed.

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  13. Charlie Tan (255 comments) says:

    >Was unaware of any handling of frogblog by Owen Glenn or Winston Peters

    It is fairly obvious who frogblog and the standard are connected to, and it certainly isn’t either of those two. I wonder if DPF will be so critical of Winston’s shennanigans if after the next election it turns out that his National Party employers need the Terror of Tauranga to form a government.

    Remember Davey, major parties always lose support during election campaigns.

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  14. ross (1,437 comments) says:

    > others of us have been off having lives rather than blogging obsessively over the latest mini-scandal.

    Yeah, I’m sure you do, Tane. But when and if National is elected later this year and when and if it stuffs up, we’ll see if you have a life then, eh?

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  15. unaha-closp (1,165 comments) says:

    Like climate change was in 2005, Peak Oil is an elephant in the room that the National Party doesn’t want to talk about because it means collective action, and it shows up one of the prime deficiencies of the “free-market” approach – resource depletion and the inefficient use of resources.

    Roger,

    A – it only means collective action if you have a collectivist mindset, most people are not like you.
    B – the oil market is one of the least free markets on the planet with most product coming from nationalised/collectivised providers.
    C – OTS burns a whole lot of oil.

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  16. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    There is no such thing as a principled left blog any more than there is such a thing as a principled left institution of any other type

    Just because the aptly named Idiot has the ability to see glaring corruption one day out of three hundred and sixty five is no reason to praise the munter. He is a propagandist for the destruction of New Zealander’s jobs and the disintegration of our family, to say nothing of his consistent advocation of the right of people like Zaoui to kill New Zealanders. None of us should have any words for this fat excuse for a man except those of contempt and condemnation – and perhaps to bear expert witness to his trial for crimes against New Zealand.

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  17. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    and gee..!..dpf..!

    if it is such a shocking scandal..

    could you tell us why key is tip-to-ing on eggshells about it..?

    nary a peep..!..

    eh..?

    and i’ll second what roger said about your ‘ignoring’ of environmental issues…

    ..and of the economic/sub-prime meltdown..?

    eh..?

    y’know..dpf..there are people (righties)..who rely on you for accurate/informed information..

    ..with that comes journalistic responsibilities..

    which in those cases..you have totally ignored..

    ..and have just followed ‘the party line’..

    so..it really is a bit rich of you accusing others of neglecting ‘crucial’ information..eh..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  18. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    unaha-closp:

    A) Peak oil means using oil more efficiently, which will mean government restructuring our transport infrastructure. That’s collective action.

    Also, considering National only has a chance at getting into government when it copies nearly all of Labour’s policies, and the right-wing revolution of the 1980s and 1990s only happened because the NZ public had no choice, I would suggest that most NZers are quite collectivist.

    B) non-OPEC oil production is market-driven, yet production has been stagnant for some time and is set to start declining soon.

    C)?

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  19. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    Philu shut the fuck up you lie-pushing socialist flapjack

    Every post of yours makes me want to puke

    DPF is good enough to host this forum out of his own pocket for your benefit and you, like the lying shit eating weasel you are, squirm in here like a snake and spit your leftist venom everywhere you see. You fail to treat others with the courtesy due another human being and I for one am sick of it

    If I hear another word out of you on this blog I am going to trace your IP address and beat you senseless. I expect a few others here will be willing to join me in this activity. Although I do this for the good of New Zealand and this blog I might just take back some of the money you, with the aid of the state, have stolen from me over the years. I would be doing your son a favour too as he would see how a true honest man behaves.

    [DPF: And that is so over the top that it is 100 demerits. Take a week to cool off. If I want people off this blog I will remove them. Threats to people if they keep commenting are not helpful to say the least.

    Also for anyone else still reading this trainwreck of a thread, please note that if you think someone has done something worth demerits or banning the desired approach is to e-mail me, not to lobby for it here as that just diverts the thread more.

    Also people should be aware I am not online 24/7. Many posts are pre-timed from this morning.]

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  20. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    pushmepullu:

    Off the meds today? Been taking blogging tips from D4J? All of the above?

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  21. Lee C (4,516 comments) says:

    well looks like the usual crew are here so no more kiwiblog for me today.

    chow!

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  22. Charlie Tan (255 comments) says:

    “….like the lying shit eating weasel you are, squirm in here like a snake and spit your leftist venom everywhere you see. You fail to treat others with the courtesy due another human being…”

    Bwahahahahahahahah

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  23. unaha-closp (1,165 comments) says:

    It is fairly obvious who frogblog and the standard are connected to, and it certainly isn’t either of those two.

    The standard (Labour) is obviously in need of as many coalition options as possible, but frogblog (the Greens) really are holding fire for only marginal possible short term gain. They have the opportunity to become the definitive third party and lock in their future for years to come – all that is needed is to kill off NZFirst. They could use this scandal as an opportunity.

    Instead the Greens keep silent and by doing so stand with Winston. Winston is playing the immigrants=fear violin again and the Greens really shouldn’t be embracing him at this point. I would have credited Russel Norman with more political savy.

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  24. labrator (1,850 comments) says:

    I would suggest deleting that post pushmepullu. Seriously WTF?

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  25. Charlie Tan (255 comments) says:

    “all that is needed is to kill off NZFirst.”

    Oh yeah, because then all of those New Zealand First voters would vote Green.

    What planet are you from?

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  26. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    I am past tolerance for Philu’s crap

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  27. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    “..If I hear another word out of you on this blog I am going to trace your IP address and beat you senseless..”

    you can have two words..

    get fucked..!

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  28. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    just in case he deletes it..

    “.. Subtract karma –1 Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 12:33 pm

    Philu shut the fuck up you lie-pushing socialist flapjack

    Every post of yours makes me want to puke

    DPF is good enough to host this forum out of his own pocket for your benefit and you, like the lying shit eating weasel you are, squirm in here like a snake and spit your leftist venom everywhere you see. You fail to treat others with the courtesy due another human being and I for one am sick of it

    If I hear another word out of you on this blog I am going to trace your IP address and beat you senseless. I expect a few others here will be willing to join me in this activity. Although I do this for the good of New Zealand and this blog I might just take back some of the money you, with the aid of the state, have stolen from me over the years. I would be doing your son a favour too as he would see how a true honest man behaves..”

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  29. Charlie Tan (255 comments) says:

    “I would suggest deleting that post pushmepullu. Seriously WTF?”

    Yes, I would imagine that if posters threatened violence on a “left-wing blog” we might hear about it here, especially after the administrator specifically instructed commenters to pour more “acid” onto detractors.

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  30. Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left (786 comments) says:

    Pushmepullyou says
    “If I hear another word out of you on this blog I am going to trace your IP address and beat you senseless. I expect a few others here will be willing to join me in this activity. Although I do this for the good of New Zealand and this blog I might just take back some of the money you, with the aid of the state, have stolen from me over the years. I would be doing your son a favour too as he would see how a true honest man behaves.”

    Wow! Its official then….Im not a true honest man.

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  31. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “If I hear another word out of you on this blog I am going to trace your IP address and beat you senseless.”

    ah good ol’ kiwiblog. No wonder it has a reputation for being a peaceful place of intelligent discussion :-)

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  32. getstaffed (9,186 comments) says:

    Charlie Tan – the acid comment was my own, not DPF’s. Sorry – on re-reading it does look like an administrator edit!

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  33. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Charlie Tan:

    “especially after the administrator specifically instructed commenters to pour more “acid” onto detractors.”

    When did this happen? Oh and for the record, i’ve been threatened with grievous bodily harm by at least three different commentators here – namely barnsely bill, Murray and d4j. None of them have faced censure for their behavior.

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  34. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    “The silence of the left”

    Hmmm, and a week or so out from the release of the Nats ACC policy, I became the proud bearer of some demerit points for daring to mention the words “Merrill Lynch” and “inside info on Nats ACC policy” in a thread all about allegations and the appearance of corruption involving those dirty corrupt lefties.

    And what do you know? I haven’t seen Merrill Lynch mentioned in dispatches at all, before or since then either. Silence of the left and all that :-)

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  35. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    I stand by what I have said

    Philu is a thief and a parasite with no conception of how to treat others as human beings as his ‘get fucked’ rejoinder clearly demonstrates. He has cheered on a pseudo-government coming to power through illegitimate means to facilitate his theft of my money. I intend to hold him to account.

    Philu, last chance

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  36. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    are you compounding your threat..?

    you are threatening another person with grievous bodily harm..

    do that a lot in your like..?

    do you..?

    never had any consequences from it..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  37. unaha-closp (1,165 comments) says:

    Roger,

    A – Price increases have much the same effect and are more fluid without government intervention.

    And aside from buying a train set, I can’t (even at the risk of massive karma — if Redbaiter is reading) classify Labours last 9 years as collectivist.

    B – The largest non-OPEC producer is Russia and GazProm is not exactly independent of the Kremlin. World oil production is I think 65% nationalised and 35% free market – you see faillings as a result of a fault in the free market, I say the elephant in the room is 65% pink.

    C – OTS is a global logistics company, chairman lives in Monaco (got to keep comments relevent or DPF hands out demerits)

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  38. pushmepullu (686 comments) says:

    Philu what I will do to you will be a mercy compared to what you get come November

    You really think that John Key will be any more tolerant than me when he contemplates your disgusting dope-fuelled lifestyle financed by the lives of others? You think he won’t cut off the flow of your ill-gotten gains and see that you are held accountable and forced to return the money you stole to those who it belongs to?

    At least your son will grow up knowing his dad is a filthy thief

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  39. llew (1,533 comments) says:

    Heh – David Slack at PA laments the loss of someone’s High Horse…

    http://www.publicaddress.net/default,5161.sm#post5161

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  40. spector (180 comments) says:

    To be fair to Tane, you can’t expect a member of the EPMU to work outside of the regulated 40 hour week. That would be against the rules of his own organisation. :)

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  41. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    so..that’s three threats..

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  42. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    Hey up – I think pushmepullu might be about to leak National’s social welfare policy!!

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  43. Manolo (13,783 comments) says:

    “you are held accountable and forced to return the money you stole to those who it belongs to”

    If that ever comes to pass Whoar, the bludger, will be baking and selling more of his “stuff” more often.

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  44. gd (2,286 comments) says:

    IMHO Winnie probably didnt know about the payment from Glen to the legal fund. The mistake was that Brian Henry should have come clean as soon as the story was broken. Most reasonjable people on all sides who understand good governance principles and politics would realise that having a trust fund where a party leader genuinely doesnt know who is donating has validity in the sense that the party leader cant be compromised not knowing the identity of any donor.

    But Henry and Peters dodnt come forward. And so if Peters was told by Henry when the story broke then Peters deserves all he gets .

    If however Henry didnt tell Peters until Friday night then Peters has every reason to be very pissed off with Henry for dropping him in it

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  45. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    unaha-closp:

    A) Price increases don’t realign government spending to facilitate more efficient modes of transport (i.e. less spending on road, more on rail). Remember Toll was going to close something like 70% of our rail tracks.

    B) Russia has already peaked, and Gazprom has been throwing billions at new production in recent years, because it is market oriented.

    Having said this, oil is viewed by sensible producer countries as a strategic asset, because it gives them a comparative advantage – so you can’t expect them to be completely devoted to the cause of the global economy over their own national interest. That’s just not how it works. So the supply side is never going to run completely according to market principles.

    So the demand side is all that we in NZ, and you can’t keep growing demand at 3% per year for ever where a non-renewable resource is concerned.

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  46. unaha-closp (1,165 comments) says:

    Oh yeah, because then all of those New Zealand First voters would vote Green.

    What planet are you from?

    Not planet Labour or planet NZFirst.

    Until recently I was pretty sure that the Greens weren’t either.

    If the Greens would lay into Winston by making a stand for “honest politics” they could take votes off Labour, which would help them this election. But their main pay-off would be in 2011, with Winston not around the chances of the Greens gaining the balance of power approach near certainty.

    Instead they keep quiet and appear ready to stand-by Winston as he plays the immigrant card. Not good.

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  47. Grendel (1,002 comments) says:

    So nome, any comment on winstons corruption, or is it your turn for distract today, oh and throw in a bit of discredit.

    it must be serious, becuase the only the complete muppet tane and charlie tan come out is when the left are well and truly caught out. that way you can tag team but look like independent commentators.

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  48. gd (2,286 comments) says:

    Actually my social welfear policy would be to have all bennies reapply for their benefits over a period and cancel those who didnt front up.

    All would be dope tested and booze tested and if positive have their benefits stopped.

    And I would introduce a number of other ‘screening’ measures so the no hopers were cut off and the money saved applied to the genuine cases.

    this is the mildest of my polciy measures.

    the alternate policy calls for termination with extreme prejudice

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  49. Kimble (4,440 comments) says:

    So the sum total response has been one of The Standorks saying they havent had enough time and Nome bringing up something totally irrelevant.

    Well done, boys.

    This should be front and centre of any political blog in NZ. Glenn gave money to Winston to try and buy a diplomatic posting. Glenn gave money to Labour for what exactly?

    Anyone who championed the EFB should be criticising Winston and Labour for their involvement in this shady business. But their support of the EFB was never about “protecting democracy”, it was about protecting their party.

    It is Labour/The Standard that is desperate. They are desperate to stay under the radar on this story of corruption. It wont work though. All that will happen is that once Winston is done, the country will turn on Labour.

    It is LOLable that Tane would have the temerity to claim that DPF is desperate. Desperate for what? For National to poll above 60%? For his traffic to dwarf The Standards? LOFL.

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  50. Pascal (1,969 comments) says:

    Philip John:

    Oh and for the record, i’ve been threatened with grievous bodily harm by at least three different commentators here – namely barnsely bill, Murray and d4j.

    What Philip John forgets to mention is that he was actively baiting those people, particularly D4J, much like a bully would pull the wings off a fly. And when called on it he responded with words to the effect of “I know but it’s so much fun”.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if somebody beats the snot out of him out day, however. He insults people, baits and goads them and then he is surprised when eventually they lose their tempers. Then he cops out as if it wasn’t his fault. He has no sense of responsibility and, as far as I am concerned, no sense of integrity.

    And although I personally would not beat philu physically, I am also sick of seeing him lie on this site. He is quite happy taking money out everybody’s pockets and then he turns around and calls them names, selfish and whatever else.

    Getting rid of Philip John the bully and insulter of women and philu, the self-confessed drug doing bludger would do wonders for the tone of this blog.

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  51. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    y’know what man-so-low..

    this is your last warning..

    you repeatedly accuse me of manufacturing/peddling drugs..usually ‘p’..

    do it one more time..

    and i’m gonna sue your arse..

    y’see..i’m not just a nom de blog..

    i don’t hide behind that..(like you..)

    people know who i am..

    and as someone who kicked a junk habit..years ago..and now only smokes pot..

    your slanders are particularly potent..

    think on..!

    (you might end up financing me off the domestic purposes benefit..eh..?

    (a leftie lawyer has already offered her assistance..)

    and i ask you dpf..to ‘do something’ about both manolo..and his ongoing slanders/accusations of drug manufacturing/peddling..

    ..and pushpull..for his threats..

    ..if not for this..what would a rightie have to do to motivate you to go..oi..!..?

    i am serious with these requests..d.p.f..

    i think many righties would also feel both are way past any pale..

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  52. Shunda barunda (2,983 comments) says:

    How about we stick to topic?
    This thread is the most degraded I have encountered so far in my short blogging experience.
    Its getting a bit ugly guys.

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  53. infused (654 comments) says:

    philu seriously, shut the fuck up. No one reads you ill written posts.

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  54. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    roger nome (3760) –6 Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 12:48 pm

    “If I hear another word out of you on this blog I am going to trace your IP address and beat you senseless.”

    ah good ol’ kiwiblog. No wonder it has a reputation for being a peaceful place of intelligent discussion

    Dude, you Standard once banned 10 people just because they knew me.. at least kiwiblog gives a chance for those with different opions thans daves to comment.

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  55. The Double Standard (69 comments) says:

    Remarkable, but sadly unsurprising ability to ignore the elephant that doesn’t fit the “We Hate John Key” theme.

    Anyone care to count the number of posts at Teh Stupid over the Coldplay sound-alike. Now that was pretty obviously a mini-scandal compared to Peter’s rorting, but the turkeys over at Teh Standard were literally fizzing at the bunghole over it.

    Sheesh, just goes to show that they operate a double standard eh?

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  56. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “unaha-closp”

    You also fail to acknowledge that, in the US, where the supply side is governed by market principals, production has been falling since 1970-71. The demand-profit-investment mechanism doesn’t magically create ever more oil to produce.

    Also, even in the OPEC countries investment has been massive of late. Only 507, or 1 % of the total number of fields, are giants. Their contribution is striking: over 60 % of 2005 production and about 65 % of the global ultimate recoverable reserve (URR).

    Moreover, most of these fields have been in production for over 40 years, so many of them have stagnant or declining production levels – so you can invest very heavily in bringing newer, smaller fields into production but it’s not going to make a huge difference.

    http://publications.uu.se/theses/abstract.xsql?dbid=7625

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  57. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    philu – you trying to tell us youve never done time? heh

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  58. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    what the hell?

    peak oil relates to winnie how??

    also, the dude that went nuts at the idiot phil…. dont bother man, he lives for that sorta shit.. showing your upset just means he wins ;)

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  59. Charlie Tan (255 comments) says:

    I think we should track down pushmepullhimself’s IP address and call the cops.

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  60. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    dime – I was only using peak oil as an example, then “unaha-closp”, questioned my example, then I explained why he was wrong. I didn’t ask anyone to bring up the details of the peak-oil issue.

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  61. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    Too right. The police don’t have enough real work to do, I’m sure they’d love the opportunity to step in and break up a blog-fight! (Or “flame war”… isn’t that what you call it?)

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  62. unaha-closp (1,165 comments) says:

    Roger,

    A – the majority of spending on transportation is thankfully not carried out by the government and is extremely price sensitive.

    Also the efficiency of rail is low compared to coastal marine and so having a rail network for transhipment within NZ is perhaps unsound. Any part of the freight rail network paralleling a coast line is likely to be inefficient, large parts of our rail network parallel the coast.

    B) I remain to be convinced that governments can create efficient longterm solutions in part because OPEC (“oil is viewed by sensible producer countries as strategic asset, because it gives them a comparative advantage”) countries failled to enforce sufficient supply side restrictions in the late 80s to early 00s to maximise that comparative advantage when demand was lower. Their collective techniques failled woefully when demand was lowered (by price increases in the 70s to early 80s) and I see little prospect for demand side collectivism being any better.

    C) OTS have any positioning papers wrt state transport road/rail/maritime supports?

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  63. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Pascal:

    “What Philip John forgets to mention is that he was actively baiting those people, particularly D4J, much like a bully would pull the wings off a fly.”

    Taunting, i’ve found, is standard kiwiblog behavior – and I only direct mine at people who direct there’s at me. I do however draw the line at threats of physical violence, despite being a 6 2′, 95kg ex-boxer who did a set of 50 push-ups yesterday :-)

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  64. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    HC has been interviewed on One News with the usual Labour response to any vile and criminal act “Nothing to see here, move on”.

    There have been many dispised world leaders who believed they were above the law including Mugabe. HC seems to be quite keen to join this talented group.

    Any other Kiwi would get roasted by the IRD for tax evasion, unless of course you happen to be a member of the left leaning coalition of the deceitful.

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  65. Charlie Tan (255 comments) says:

    “The police don’t have enough real work to do”

    Investigating threats of violence is real work.

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  66. Kimble (4,440 comments) says:

    And another post from Nome on “peak oil”.

    As someone who has never voted for Labour (or NZ First?) it is bewildering why he is still ignoring this huge scandal.

    Good point by TDS, The Standurrred did make a HUGE deal over a silly little song that National used, but still NOTHING on their good mate Winstons lying to the NZ public.

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  67. frog (84 comments) says:

    Hey, just to clarify, I did post on Winston on Sunday morning. I even linked (approvingly) to one of your posts:

    Large secret donations clearly have a staining influence on politics. For instance, no matter what you think of Winston Peters, it’s very rarely indeed that it he gets outright caught in an lie, as he appears to have been done now. Money makes people do funny things.

    I held back a bit before the weekend because, with Winston, well you always want to see what his wriggle away excuse is before you confirm you’ve got him caught in a trap. This time I think he is caught though.

    Also, I don’t mind being described as being on the left (although Greens often say ‘neither left nor right but out in front), but not so sure how Labour fits in that category?

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  68. Southern Raider (1,831 comments) says:

    Nome I would have thought your statue and physical ability closer to Mini Me.

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  69. Kimble (4,440 comments) says:

    “Taunting, i’ve found, is standard kiwiblog behavior…”

    Yeah, from you. You bring all that stuff on yourself. Dont complain when it gets more than you can handle, wimp.

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  70. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Southern Raider:

    You can find out for sure if you come to the local boxing gym. That’s if you live in the area? :-)

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  71. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    roger nome (3763) +0 Says:
    July 21st, 2008 at 1:45 pm

    Pascal:

    “What Philip John forgets to mention is that he was actively baiting those people, particularly D4J, much like a bully would pull the wings off a fly.”

    Taunting, i’ve found, is standard kiwiblog behavior – and I only direct mine at people who direct there’s at me. I do however draw the line at threats of physical violence, despite being a 6 2′, 95kg ex-boxer who did a set of 50 push-ups yesterday

    Sooo after a few blows to the head you became a leftist? :P

    50 push ups? hope that wasnt your complete chest work out :O

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  72. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “You bring all that stuff on yourself”

    You’re not averse to dishing out a taunt or two kimble. So I presume that you wouldn’t mind if I threatened to beat the crap out of you?

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  73. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    “despite being a 6 2′, 95kg ex-boxer”

    Short arse!

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  74. Kimble (4,440 comments) says:

    If the Greens want to be thought of as a centrist party, they may want to create/support some centrist policy. The things the Greens are known for are certainly NOT centrist, and I struggle to think of many issues on which they are centre-right let alone squarely right.

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  75. Al-Girta (60 comments) says:

    Call the cops peak oil call the cops internetwarrior I am the walrus coo coo kachoo.

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  76. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Have you always been a bully Roger?

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  77. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    dime:

    “50 push ups? hope that wasnt your complete chest work out :O”

    I’m not as dedicated as I used to be. Just aim at maintenance these days. I don’t know that many people who can crank out 50 on the spot though.

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  78. kaykaybee (152 comments) says:

    Pleased to hear Laila Harre (nearly) unequivocal in her positioning over this issue. For once can we please give her a bouquet .

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  79. getstaffed (9,186 comments) says:

    you’re probably right nome. you’d be the only one around here with your ‘crank out’.

    now, would you care to comment on the embarrassed silence from the left about the corruption that’s unfolding?

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  80. Charlie Tan (255 comments) says:

    So let’s see.

    Of the seven blogs mentioned in DPF’s post, four (including, it seems, frogblog) have mentioned this episode. Odd definition of silence. Is it because they didn’t provide audio files?

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  81. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    roger – yea 50 isnt too bad.. i find myself stopping because of sore wrists, as opposed to fatigue.. maybe its cause im a wanker? :(

    do you write for the standard or another blog roger?? im keen to know how you ended up so far to the left..

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  82. Kimble (4,440 comments) says:

    “So I presume that you wouldn’t mind if I threatened to beat the crap out of you?”

    Is that a threat? First of all you tell me how big and mean you are, and then you practically threaten my life! Outrageous!

    If I taunted somebody to the point that they threatened violence upon me, I wouldnt complain about it. I would just laugh it off, at most.

    You do it just to get that sort of response, and we all know it. You set off the more volatile commenters here just so you can say things like “typical kiwiblog behaviour”. You know it isnt true. That is why everyone calls you a disgusting liar and a troll.

    And btw, launching your fat arse off the couch to dash to the bathroom because of last nights curry, does not constitute one “push up”.

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  83. Al-Girta (60 comments) says:

    I blame Mr. Farrar for putting numbers after people’s names. Talk about a race to the bottom.

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  84. Kimble (4,440 comments) says:

    “Odd definition of silence. Is it because they didn’t provide audio files?”

    No, it is because the proportion that addressed it in the detail and with the condemnation it deserved was pitifully small.

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  85. Kimble (4,440 comments) says:

    “Talk about a race to the bottom.”

    [deleted]

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  86. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    UC:

    “Also the efficiency of rail is low compared to coastal marine and so having a rail network for transhipment within NZ is perhaps unsound.”

    There has to be a balance between timeliness and efficiency. That balance is soon to make rail a more attractive option, and trucking less-so. I suspect that the price of oil will have to go very very high to make coastal shipping more attractive than rail.

    “and I see little prospect for demand side collectivism being any better”

    Transport infrastructure needs to be built. The only question is which type and how much. Toll was going to be shutting down most of our rail infrastructure when it needed to be upgraded. That’s the problem with private industry – single monopolies don’t always act in the best interest of the entire economy.

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  87. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “Is that a threat?”

    No kimble. I was just showing you how stupid you argument is. By your logic, someone is justified for assaulting someone for taking the piss out of them, yet you would certainly see it as unjust if you were beaten up for being the smart-arse that you are.

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  88. unaha-closp (1,165 comments) says:

    Roger,

    Peak oil exists, acknowledged. All of the above has been written in full acknowledgement of the concept that peak oil exists. I apologise for failling to make my implicit acknowledgement be explicit.

    I contend that a larger problem causing peak oil faillings is because of collectivist actions.

    Moreover, most of these fields have been in production for over 40 years, so many of them have stagnant or declining production levels – so you can invest very heavily in bringing newer, smaller fields into production but it’s not going to make a huge difference.

    OPEC (collectivist cartel) has a policy of not classifying the amount of oil remaining in the fields (and certainly not opening these to independent examination). The figures you, the market or any state can access are limited to what can be inferred. This collectivist cartel has maintained that there is plentiful oil for the next 50 years and I do not believe this fine example of collectivist action has been beneficial. I do not believe that any collectivist action will be beneficial.

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  89. Bryce Edwards (248 comments) says:

    Yes – the silence of the left is very telling. The issue of political finance in NZ is the Achilles heel for most of the left, who fail to understand the issues but simply approach them with a kneejerk reaction. I think there’s an important story to be told about the left’s hopeless orientation in NZ to issues of political finance – it says a lot about the terrible state of leftwing politics here.

    As someone who considers themselves very much on the left, I also haven’t been able to blog on this issue yet, but hope to rise to the occasion and do so asap. But for what it’s worth, a few months ago I had an attempt to sort out a few of the Glenngate issues in a few thorough blog posts:

    Glenngate 1: Summary of the scandal
    http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2008/03/political-finan.html
    Glenngate 2: The politics of Owen Glenn
    http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2008/03/political-fin-1.html
    Glenngate 3: Mike Williams’ corporate deals
    http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2008/03/political-fin-2.html

    Glenngate 4, coming soon…

    Bryce

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  90. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Hang on…Roger has a short temper, he is a Labour toadie and he threatens violence when cornered.

    Is Roger really Len Richards?

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  91. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    David – ever thought about starting a forum section to the site? that way threads wont always be hijacked… or would it detract from the blog and just become a giant shit storm…

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  92. unaha-closp (1,165 comments) says:

    dime,

    peak oil relates to winnie how??

    Playing 6 steps to a conspiracy.

    Owen Glenn is the billionaire CEO of OTS. OTS is a global logistics giant with massive interests in rail and seafreight. Owen Glenn is a known sponsor of NZFirst & Labour. Rogernome has commented that DPF is avoiding addressing the “need” for collectivist action on peak oil. Rogernome has elaborated that this action would consist of giving taxpayer subsidy to the most efficient transportation. Rail and seafreight are two of the most efficient forms of transportation.

    QED – Owen Glenn is giving $ to political parties that intend to provide taxpayer subsidies beneficial to OTS.

    Admit there is a weak link or two in there.

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  93. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “unaha-closp”

    So you would leave our transport infrastructure decisions to private capital then? I wonder how many roads would come to be seen as “unprofitable” in that scenario? How many would be left to dilapidation? How would trade in rural areas suffer as a result? How much productive time would be wasted waiting in long queues just to pay a toll for using the road? How would our economy suffer as a result of all of this? You see, some things are better handled collectively, and transport infrastructure is one of them.

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  94. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    Bruv:

    “Roger has a short temper”

    Pot meet kettle.

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  95. roger nome (4,067 comments) says:

    “OPEC (collectivist cartel) has a policy of not classifying the amount of oil remaining in the fields (and certainly not opening these to independent examination).”

    UC:

    I know, and if anything they over-estimate their reserves.

    The OPEC countries decided in 1985 to link their production quotas to their reserves. What then seemed wise provoked important increases of the estimates in order to increase their production rights. This also permits the ability to obtain bigger loans at lower interest rates. This is a suspected reason for the reserves rise of Iraq in 1983, then at war with Iran.

    In fact, Dr. Ali Samsam Bakhtiari, a former senior executive of the National Iranian Oil Company, has stated unequivocally that OPEC’s oil reserves (notably Iran’s) are grossly overstated. In an interview to Bloomberg in July 2006, he stated that world oil production is now at its peak and predicted that it will fall 32% by 2020.

    The following image shows that OPEC’s reserves are pretty obviously over-estimated.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Opec-reservers.png

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  96. stephen (4,063 comments) says:

    Bizarrely one of the reasons OG gave to Labour was ‘good work with free trade agreements’. Then he goes and gives to frickin NZ First, who *hate* FT!

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  97. george (388 comments) says:

    The left is beginning to speak out. Former Alliance leader Laila Harre has called Peters a charlatan and says he is being let off lightly by the MSM for his corruption.

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  98. unaha-closp (1,165 comments) says:

    Roger,

    So you would leave our transport infrastructure decisions to private capital then?…

    I think that our rolling stock (road/rail/sea) should be left in private hands like they were up until this month and that each group of users pay for the upkeep of the infrastucture they use. Pretty much the status quo.

    You are the one suggesting this needs to change by some urgent collectivist action to subsidise the nationalised rail network. Subsidy to be provided from someone as yet unspecified. I think that is unnecessary and more likely to lead to greater inefficiency than anythingelse.

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  99. 3-coil (1,220 comments) says:

    The “silence of the left” is really no surprise DPF.

    Winston has been caught taking a hundred grand back-hander from NZ Labour party’s foreign billionaire bagman/sugardaddy, and Winnie was expected to deliver a few perks (and probably a little “policy” too?) in return – and the silence from the lefties is deafening. So what?

    When you remember that they consider this to be “acceptable behaviour”, their lack of protest is par for the course. Why would the lefties be expected to jump up and down about what has become normal everyday behaviour for them – well evidently from all of the crooks who comprise this current corrupt Labour/NZFirst government.

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  100. dave (988 comments) says:

    Big News has a comment here.What is Helen Clark going to do about her Ministers receiving donations for ministerial work disguised as donations for legal costs.

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  101. Russell Brown (405 comments) says:

    Russell Brown devotes oh one paragraph to it today …

    That was largely because David Slack had already posted on it, but I thought I should mention it anyway, even though my blog post was about a telecommunications outage.

    Take it from me, I think his position is untenable.

    But forgive me for finding some comedy in the striking of various positions. Labour can’t sack Peters without nuking its coalition in election year; National can’t really go for Peters because it just might need him later in the year — even Matthew Hooton was bashing them for that!

    I’m looking forward to the progress of Rodney Hide’s complaint.

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  102. dime (9,972 comments) says:

    did rodney lay a complaint? i thought he was going to hold back as he was on the committee?

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  103. unaha-closp (1,165 comments) says:

    Roger,

    I know, and if anything they over-estimate their reserves.

    They do so because it is to their benefit to act that way and there is no one to over see their performance. I apply only slightly higher levels of trust to our political parties when we adopt a monopoly here and for that reason do not trust a government owner of our trains to provide subsidies to it in a more efficient manner than open exposure to fuel pricing would cause.

    PS – I’ve not yet found you to have a short temper. Anyone your political views and an anger management problem would be needing serious medical care after commenting 3771 times here.

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  104. The Double Standard (69 comments) says:

    It is a great pity that the “silence of the left” doesn’t extend to the pathetic diversion attempts that we regularly see here from Teh Roger. It must bring great joy to his life to case such misdirection and disruption. You really ought to get a job, Roger.

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  105. Barnsley Bill (983 comments) says:

    Eger moron. I never threatened you with physical violence.
    i merely said that if you came into my house spraying your insulting hyperbole around (like you do here) you would find yourself going home in a wheelie bin.
    We often see leftards mocking the right for having to eat “dead rats”. Today has shown that the left will eat anything. When the likes of phool and eger moron are tag teaming on here to deflect commentary away from Winston Peters they have plumbed new depths.. Eating “dead poodles” would take a lot more chewing than the odd dead rat. And I suggest you remove all the baubles before tucking in ladies, wouldn’t want to chip a tooth.

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  106. Rex Widerstrom (5,354 comments) says:

    Tane says:

    …blogging obsessively…

    What, like the 586 hits that come up when you search The Standard for “Crosby Textor”?

    …I’ve been out of cellphone range for most the weekend and first heard about the Winston’s admission when I woke up to Morning Report this morning… I haven’t really had time to get my thoughts in order to an extent that I’ll have time to write about it today.

    Fair enough, people do have lives. I appreciate that, which is why, at 3.56pm on Saturday on this post (a post you seem to have been around to comment on, Tane) I offered to write a guest post for The Standard. Considering journalists are calling me from NZ today for my perspective you guys could have had a two day scoop.

    The response from Lynn Prentice to vto was that the issue didn’t concern “the broad labour movement” and then, in response to my offer, to say “not my department” and invite me to write to the blog’s other email address – as though they don’t read their own comments or he doesn’t know how to contact them.

    I’m not about to beg for column centimetres – I get paid handsomely to fill them and I was offering to do so for free, so Tane and others could enjoy their fresh air and sunshine. I was met with weak excuses from Lynn and a deafening silence from the rest of the “team”.

    So sorry Tane – perhaps not you; maybe you’d gone by the time I offered – but in terms of the Standard generally – bullshit.

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  107. Kimble (4,440 comments) says:

    “By your logic, someone is justified for assaulting someone for taking the piss out of them…”

    No, Nome, that is YOUR logic.

    I said that if you deliberately bait people to get a certain response, you can’t then whine about getting that response and have anyone feel sorry for you. That is MY logic. See how it makes sense? That’s how people can tell our two logics apart.

    Your type of logic is typical of the Left, Nome. Spit in a cops face and then complain when he twists your arm in your arrest. You are doing the same thing here, which is why you dont get any respect.

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  108. Portia (175 comments) says:

    David, any chance you could set up parallel blogs for those who simply want to fling garbage at each other?

    These threads are excellent when the debates and discussion do not become personal sledge attacks, but instead, focus on the issues. Personally, I find it awfully dull, scrolling through all the dross to find the more carefully posted comments.

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  109. stephen (4,063 comments) says:

    Telling one’s ‘opponent’ that they’re ‘taking this flame war to another thread care to join me’ would make them realise how absurd they are too, hopefully.

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  110. Adam (562 comments) says:

    All I can conclude from this thread is FUBAR.

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  111. gd (2,286 comments) says:

    You gotta hand it to Owen Glenn Im mean he fronts 2% of the cost of a building and gets his name on it for all time.

    He donates $500K and lends another $100K to the Socialists and gets the old eqvuialent of a knighthood.

    He gives $100K to Liugi for a hoped for diplomatic post in Monaco.

    And given the reports of his bank account it all adds up to chump change.

    this guy has bought off the so called political elite of our country for 20 pieces of silver

    If that doesnt qualify NZ for a mention in despatches in the global corruption hall of shame.

    I mean the UK at leats had an attempt to sort out their pollies for bribery and corruption.

    Here we just shrug the shoulders and say who cares.

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  112. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    Luigi??

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  113. Kimble (4,440 comments) says:

    Well RRM, he sure isn’t Super Maorio.

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  114. RRM (9,924 comments) says:

    Yeah, but why is he Luigi?

    (And FFS, how does some gimp take offense to my 5:02? It’s not even an OPINION…)

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  115. boomtownprat (281 comments) says:

    RRM. Winston Raymond Peters displayed early tendencies to Vanity, Dishonesty and Racism.

    Whilst at university he passed himself off as Italian rather than Maori……hence Luigi.

    And Ms Clark happily appointed this charlatan schister as NZ foreign Minister……….ahh MMP, what a glorious electoral system!

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  116. Kimble (4,440 comments) says:

    RRM, Karma isnt just about the last bad thing you did.

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  117. Short Shriveled and Slightly to the Left (786 comments) says:

    RRM
    think of the Kiwblog karma system as the popularity system at high school
    you are not in the ‘clique’ so you will often get negative Karma for nothing and will have to say something extra bright or funny to get positive Karma
    its just the way it is for you as you are just out of the ‘clique’
    at least you’re not PhilW
    he gets beaten up in the toilets
    but he still goes in there to smoke up

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  118. getstaffed (9,186 comments) says:

    RMM – I agree. Have just +ve karma’ed you. There’s a first time for everything :)

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  119. philu (13,393 comments) says:

    you desire commentary from the left..?

    i have written on ‘the silence of the key’..)

    http://whoar.co.nz/2008/key-comes-out-with-an-ohyouat-peters/

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

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  120. lprent (101 comments) says:

    DPF: 14 posts and counting by you on Winston in the last 2 days. Doesn’t that seem to be compulsively obsessive to you?

    Frankly this stuff about Winston is only of mild interest to me, and presumably to the other writers on the standard. It is tabloid level because it is mainly people trying to fluff up an issue as far as I can see. It’d get interesting when it gets down to some facts rather than endless speculation. But so far it doesn’t seem to amount to much.

    Haven’t you got any issues of policy or substance to look at? Ah thats right, it isn’t in the C/T play-book right… Lets look at how much distraction on trivialities rather than substance can be achieved leading up to an election.

    Kind of pathetic really.

    [DPF: You really get pathetic when you try to downplay the significance of this. How many times has The Standard mentioned Crosby/Textor?

    The fact is this issue has been the lead story for pretty much five days in a row. No one outside those in denial thinks it is a minor issue that the Foreign Minister benefited by $100,000 from a man lobbying him to be given a diplomatic appointment.

    And as for my blogging on the issue - well I have had well over two dozen MPs, lawyers and journalists (let alone other people) tell me that the material I have been producing has been spot on and a significant driver of the debate. So why on earth would I not cover this issue in detail]

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  121. Craig Ranapia (1,915 comments) says:

    Ah thats right, it isn’t in the C/T play-book right… Lets look at how much distraction on trivialities rather than substance can be achieved leading up to an election.

    Thanks, Mrs. Nixon. Of course, when you folks were parroting Clark’s baseless accusation that John Key was using Parliament to line his own pocket that wasn’t a trivial distraction at all. That was a matter of character and judgement.

    Really, dear, I’ve seen slasher movies with less hackwork in it.

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  122. boomtownprat (281 comments) says:

    “Trivialities” says Labour party web/blog tech advisor Lprent…r.e Peters.

    It is not “trivial”, that during a parliamentary term, were electoral law was “reformed” in the name of transparency, that a renowned racist and populist “Minister”, who dramatically railed against big foreign business interests influencing NZ politics has had prima facie substantive allegations of undue influence for personal financial reward made against him. And that said influence was foreign and big business.

    It is not trivial that the competent governance of this country is dependent on the support of said Minister to the PM.

    It is not trivial that whilst NZers struggle to meet Tax Obligations, the Minister of Foreign Affairs absolves himself of such responsibilities and the PM does nothing to launch an investigation why.

    You can’t change the law with regards to election financing and yet against all learned advice change it to enable your corporate supporters to continue to fund your agenda without the highest scrutiny being applied.

    Simply dismissing it as trivial and minor is symptomatic of the arrogance of the current government…………your time is up.

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  123. big bruv (13,904 comments) says:

    Iprent

    Fancy you accusing anybody of being obsessive, the last time I checked the tax payer funded and staffed Standard you were still in full Key derangement mode.

    Of course you would say that the corrupt actions of Peters was only of mild interest to you and the other ninth floor employees, anybody who dares question you or the actions of your dear corrupt leader is swiftly banned, I can see why you chaps are such fans of the EFA, I don’t suppose you see the irony in you being allowed to post your lies here without be censored.

    Now bugger off back to the Standard, I am sure you have somebody else to ban.

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