Death reported
One News is reporting:
There are reports that the Prime Minister is involved in a incident near Lake Tekapo where she’s been on a skiing or tramping trip.
A person is reported to have died. It’s been initially reported that it was a staff member but it’s not clear who or how at this point.
Helen Clark is said to have attempted to resuscitate the staff member but was unsuccessfully.
Search and Rescue are attempting to reach the group at a tramping hut near the lake but weather conditions in the area are hampering rescue efforts.
ONE News reporters are currently heading to the area and we’ll have more on the situation as information becomes available.
God, how awful. Being present at a suddent death of someone you are close to is an awful experience. Details still sketchy but enough known to convey sympathies to the PM and everyone else involved.
Guyon Espiner has just named the dead person as Gottlieb Braun-Elwert, who is a mounatin climbing expert and has been a mentor to Clark. It seems it was a medical condition, not an accident. Sounds like they tried resuscitating him for some time, but they were so isolated they couldn’t keep him alive until full medical help arrived. Clark herself took part in resuscitation efforts it seems. Good on her.
On a related note the hail at the moment is so strong, I can’t even hear the TV set. I hope it is better weather at Lake Tekapo.
August 14th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
[Deleted by DPF]
(If I get demerits it will be worth it)
[DPF: Yep 30 demerits. A human being is dead. Get some perspective]
August 14th, 2008 at 10:52 pm
[Deleted by DPF]
[DPF: You are the only one politicising it. 30 demerits]
August 14th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
Monty – get a grip. This isn’t a time for politics, and I very much doubt that Helen will seek to make mileage out of it.
This must be awful for Helen, as it would be for anyone in that situation. It is hard when someone you know dies, even harder if you are present, it must be harder still when you had some hand in trying to keep them alive. You’d always be wondering just a little bit whether if you’d done something differently they might have survived.
I’m not sure how old Gottlieb was, but I have the impression not old enough to be dying. That is also quite unsettling – reminds you of your own mortality.
Something like this happening going into a campaign that is long odds for Labour, and with a party that isn’t exactly united behind you, would have to make you think hard about whether that was really how you wanted to spend some of your life. We only get so many years each – is that really something that Helen wants to spend one quarter of a year of her life on? That soul searching could be interesting.
August 14th, 2008 at 10:59 pm
Wow – I so desperately want to say what you are all thinking but I know it will end in a ban for life!
August 14th, 2008 at 11:00 pm
what a horrible way to go
August 14th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
A very close friend of mine died recently, someone tried to save her too…. same result…. dead!
Any media about it? NO! This doesn’t warrant it either…. move on.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
[DPF - 20 demerits]
August 14th, 2008 at 11:04 pm
And as regular as clockwork the kiwiblog right pops up to put a vile slant on it. Monty, Tim – I’m not sure what is worse, the fact that you are that bitter and twisted or the fact that people like you actually vote. You really are pond scum.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:05 pm
[Deleted by DPF - 50 demerits]
August 14th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
Monty, Tim you really need to get some perspective, learn a little empathy. Someone died. Not everything is some weird political spin battle. Monty get a life, is a prime minister not allowed to go for a tramp in the mountains. Tim, Sir Ed died, should it have been ignored. In one statement you try to politicise something, while accusing everyone else of spin.
[DPF: What Ian said]
August 14th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
Get a grip Farrar. Sometimes I think you think politics at the senior level is played like in the classroom, because that is about you level of understanding.
[DPF: And 30 more demerits]
August 14th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
God, you might as well close comments on posts like this.
People, it won’t hurt to refrain from attacking Helen until/unless she does try to spin this. Unless, of course, you realise she probably won’t.
That said, I don’t see what point there is in censoring it.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
I seriously don’t envy you having to moderate the comments regarding this post.
Helen just did what any other normal human would do in the same situation, and likely to her dismay it is now all over the media.
Thoughts and condolences to his family.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
Fuck me, what a train wreck. I would have hoped that some proportion of the comments would be sane, but so far as I can tell the “kiwiblog right” has managed to become a caricature of itself. It makes me ashamed to be part of the club. DPF – would it be easier just to suspend comments on the thread?
Or is it more amusing to allow the house to clean itself as they all earn demerits?
Maybe you could post an equivalent thread for the lefty trolls to put stupid comments on. We could have a whole week without all of the trolls (both right and left).
MichaelT, the point in censoring to me is that if I owned this blog, I’d be ashamed of those comments. Leaving them up would be embarrassing and insensitive.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:18 pm
If you can, I suggest you turn off the comments DPF.
[DPF: Nope. There are around 3,000 registered commenters on the site. If half a dozen can't exercise any judgement about appropriateness, then they'll get pinged, but I am sure the vast majority will not need any help working out the appropriate response, if they wish to comment at all]
August 14th, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Did freedom of speech die today as well?
Guess the EFA isn’t going anywhere after all. Maybe the voters aren’t as into the pursuit of “Me too” as the National party are these days.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
I haven’t had to cope with a death as close to home as this as unexpectedly as this, so I have only empathy and sympathy for all of those personally affected.
I’m also very glad I didn’t have to read the comments above that have been deleted. Human life is sacred and so the passing of it should be treated accordingly.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
FFS!!!! you deleted my post and gave me 30 demerits, that’s a tad unfair, I didn’t say anything bad. Hope your not turning into a little Winston that will moniter every post first!!!
AND BEFORE THIS ONE GETS REMOVED TOO………
WraithX….. Just say it….
August 14th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
OECD rank 22 kiwi: I saw your comment, and you should be glad DPF deleted it because it was shameful.
Freedom of speech is something you do in public spaces or on your own property. You can’t spray paint your thoughts on my house if I don’t allow you to do so, you cannot put stuff on DPF’s blog that he doesn’t choose to allow you to. That is not a question of free speech, it is a question of private property rights.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
I don’t like her politics but Helen has done well today. My respects to Braun-Elwert’s family.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
What a horrible event. Mr Braun-Elwert was well respected in the MacKenzie, he did a lot of hard work and this is a huge blow for NZ mountaineering. Thankfully the community will gather round his family, and support them, because they obviously arent going to get support from people who believe that politics and the simple pleasures in life, such as enjoying the beautiful countryside cant be separated.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:32 pm
I initially had a bit of a chuckle at the thought of Helen being stuck out and having to be rescued until I continued reading and found out her close friend had died, my condolences to friends and family members, I hope rescue efforts aren’t hampered too long as I can imagine the situation is made all the worse being stuck where they are.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:34 pm
im just shocked she spends time with her “husband”.. must be election year!
August 14th, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Far out!!!! nothing is sacred anymore.
I’m no fan of Helen’s politics but she is still a human being, there is a level of dignity that should be afforded to all people regardless of political views.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
A quote from Benjamin Franklin:
“Certainty? In this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.”
Shameful enough for you PaulL?
Or are we denying the laws of nature today are well? Isn’t Doublespeak grand?
August 14th, 2008 at 11:41 pm
What PaulL said @ 11.15. I sincerely hope Helen Clark gets punished for her Caligula-like arrogance come election day. I just as sincerely hope that she’s not feeling as utterly horrible as I know she will be this evening, and commend her on her actions in trying to save a life.
To those whose comments have been deleted, I’d say if you can’t find the humanity to simply mourn a man’s passing, then at least try to think strategically. If you’re really as committed to right wing politics as you claim, then pause to think whether your utterances give ammunition to those who seek to characterise those on the right as heartless bullies.
Christ, now you’ve got me sounding like Peter Dunne. I’m going to have to swap the glass of Verdelho for one of Laphroaig and try and erase the appalling self-image I’ve now developed.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Shunda I agree, so why put this on a political blog if the “host” keeps deleting our point of view?
If it’s political, put it on and let it be discussed and…. well like the left do…. abuse.
If not… Don’t blog on it!
[just 10]
August 14th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
I don’t know what was said that got deleted but I think I have an idea and I need to say, Tim, Monty, your right to say what you wish is sacred, keep fighting for it.
I will withdraw my own opinion since it is clear it is not wanted, but I think those who know me know what my position is on this.
I think the karma on Monty and Tim’s posts shows well where the kiwiblog community consensus lies on issues of freedom of speech.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
My condolences to the families and friends of Gottlieb Braun-Elwert, including Helen Clark. She did a fine thing in trying to save him. Any of us would be lucky to have her by our side in those circumstances.
August 14th, 2008 at 11:57 pm
Rex Widerstrom says:
I hear what you’re saying about strategic thinking. Essentially be more like John Key, say what other want to hear not what you believe and think.
For some of us, we are what we are. Denying oneself can lead to perverse psychological consequences.
Whaleoil has a more free, open and honest approach to the topic . Good on him.
August 15th, 2008 at 12:02 am
Cry me a river and drown me in it!!!
If I saw a mouse, a pig, a rat, a cow, or even winnie or helen or a dog or a cat needing help, I would happily give mouth to mouth……. it’s life… or death… get over it.
August 15th, 2008 at 12:04 am
However, if a few survived I could wack them over the head with a baseball bat!!!
August 15th, 2008 at 12:13 am
I vaguely recall a quotation by someone much better with words than myself, something like “climbers will succeed, and climbers will die, and the mountains are indifferent to it all. Nothing changes.” I’m no mountaineer myself but I’ve seen just enough of our Southern Alps from down on the flat in my car that I can well understand why people go to spend time there, even at personal risk.
As for the “other” topic here; while I haven’t seen the deleted comments, dare I suggest (for those who clearly don’t get it yet) that where comments have been deleted the reason probably has little to do with the right to speech, and everything about the decency of what was said?
August 15th, 2008 at 12:22 am
RRM, it’s where we start inflicting our notion of what’s decent and what’s not on others that freedom of speech starts sliding away
August 15th, 2008 at 1:00 am
Rocket Boy – indefinite suspension for sheer nastiness
This was for calling you fat and single, David.
Dime said: im just shocked she spends time with her “husband”.. must be election year!
Michaels – if you need something to wank to check out http://www.rotten.com or look up the cup chicks.
August 15th, 2008 at 1:01 am
Pushmepullu – as has been stated on here countless times before, you are subject to the ‘Golden Rule’ here – DPF pays the gold, he makes the rules. You’re a guest on the blog, if you don’t like having comments offensive to the host edited or removed, go and comment at Whale Oil where they don’t seem to mind a lower tone on this particular topic.
My Dad had a crack at Mt Cook about eight or nine years ago, with Gottfried Braun-Elwert as a guide. They sat in a hut for seven days waiting for a break in the weather for seven (expensive) days, and whilst they got to have a hoon on some of the nearby peaks (Elie de Beaumont etc) never got a go at the big one. Excellent company by all accounts. This is really very sad – one of New Zealand’s climbing characters. RIP.
MrHappy
August 15th, 2008 at 1:05 am
# pushmepullu (352) Add karma Subtract karma +2 Says:
August 15th, 2008 at 12:22 am
RRM, it’s where we start inflicting our notion of what’s decent and what’s not on others that freedom of speech starts sliding away
Dude, you should like, totally go to his funeral – I bet all the people there would be a bunch of communist Nazis too that can’t handle freedom of speech, it’d be a good place for you to protest this outrageous fundamental breach in human rights. Hey and if you’re not a pussy why not post your real name and address, I mean don’t tell me you’re too anti freedom of speech for us to go over and express our freedom of speech on you aye.
August 15th, 2008 at 1:14 am
Stan/RebelHeart/Jesus Crux/Reb (any other alias I missed):
Your 1:00 and 1:05 contributions do you no credit – don’t worry, you won’t have to wait long for your 4 month ban.
August 15th, 2008 at 1:15 am
LOL I love how the karma is working so far… -3 for everything that tells people to have some consideration, +3 for everyone who thinks David is being a control freak.
Fuck, I don’t care about this guy dying, but it’s out of line to use this as an opportunity to rejoice.
August 15th, 2008 at 1:17 am
# Nomestradamus (1695) Add karma Subtract karma +0 Says:
August 15th, 2008 at 1:14 am
Stan/RebelHeart/Jesus Crux/Reb (any other alias I missed):
Dressed to the Left/Stan – 1 week until 12/12/07 and then 2 weeks until 06/01/08 and then 1 month until 11 April 2008 and then 2 months until 21 July 2008
Your 1:00 and 1:05 contributions do you no credit – don’t worry, you won’t have to wait long for your 4 month ban.
What were you wanting to contribute to this thread again?
August 15th, 2008 at 2:17 am
Whaleoil seems to have missed the point entirely in terms of the comments he’s allowing. I’m not sure what David has deleted here but if they were along the lines of “the wrong climber copped it” then, though predictable, they’re not really terribly offensive. I copped it at The Standard when they posted on “Enforced Disappearnce” of political opponents by nominating Winston as the first recipient
But Gottlieb Braun-Elwert wasn’t a politician, he was a guide. And he didn’t just do something deserving of a good serve, he passed away for Chrissakes. So comments like “I don’t care a fuck about this guy dying” are just unnecessary.
If ever there was a case for keeping quiet if you can’t say something nice, then the passing of someone in the course of doing his job is surely it. I just hope he doesn’t have a family or, if he has, they don’t Google his name at some time in future.
August 15th, 2008 at 2:53 am
I personally wondered why DPF posted this thread in the first place given that a) it wasn’t really political and b) what has happened in the comments was in some ways foreseeable although entirely disappointing.
However I reflected on the fact that one of the main tenets of DPF and KiwiBlog, has always been to go behind the mere actions and interpret the human aspects of a given situation and I guess everything that happens to and around the PM, falls within that.
Perhaps that’s something that we commenters too often gloss over, the fact that the actions we critique aren’t committed by automatons but by flawed flesh and blood.
DPF’s posts in my memory have always been robust, yet never ad homina, indeed he often goes out of his way to balance his objective critique of their actions, with possible explanations as to why so and so may have arrived at their conclusion. This is to me, one of the reasons why the blog is so successful.
As people who’ve read my posts know, I don’t hold myself to the same restrictions since as a mere commenter I use different rules for myself. However, perhaps there are times when we need to eschew the politics – it’s only a job, after all.
Just thinking about the situation, the reports they spent hours trying to revive him shows I think the humanity.
It’s a bit corny but I think John Dunn is pretty aposite:
August 15th, 2008 at 2:55 am
Rex Widerstrom says at 2:17 am:
Your assumptions are basically correct in my case. The two comments above plus mine may
or may not 
have in passing referred to the song by Dead or Alive “You spin me round(Like a record)”
The truth is out there.
On the topic of untimely death, I was saddened this week by the news that both Bernie Mac and Isaac Hayes had passed away. A great loss to the entertainment industry.
August 15th, 2008 at 5:29 am
The time to have heart attacks is in your 70s and 80s. My old man has had about ten of them and while one will get him eventually, they just seem to knock him around for a while. Whenever I hear people under 60 (or especially in their 40s) having heart attacks they are usually fatal.
August 15th, 2008 at 5:43 am
What an awful situation, stuck in the middle of nowhere with a dead mate.
August 15th, 2008 at 6:27 am
.
August 15th, 2008 at 6:32 am
So, is anyone else thinking that this trip looks like a last holiday for HC before calling the election? If that reading is correct, does this change the strategy? Is she forced to wait to avoid allegations of cashing in on any public sympathy?
August 15th, 2008 at 7:07 am
hmmm
I’m with George here, looks like prep for declaring the election gone horribly wrong. HC has had a pretty dreadful year all round really, everything she touches goes wrong.
Sorry for the bloke involved – who is indeed very well respected and doesnt deserve to go out like this – he has died doing what he loved most, just 20 years early. Why is it always the fit, healthy good guys who seem to go too soon?
Recognising the horribleness of the situation, i am forced to note, as did some of the less charitable commentators, that HC will struggle not to milk this incident.
This is after all the person who tried to whip up a stupid family not paying their power bill into a national crisis that only the compassionate labour leader could mediate – coincidentally having nothing to do with trying to manage the blowback of cutting Field off, for the PI community? – nah how could anyone think that she would be so manipulative…
see the point…?
But I guess many readers are now so cynical about how this woman runs politics, that they immediately expect the story to hit the women’s mags about brave plucky helen standing by her downed friend. These stories will be “spontaneous” human interest and nothing to do with managing HCs polling decline amongst women. There may even be a make-over and tasteful clothing by an important designer. Peter standing by his (wo)man will be prominently displayed – probably in Fairisle. She probably can’t help herself, its the woman’s MO.
If this is worth demerits, so be it, but I expect a bottle of fine Pinot in exchange if I am right.
August 15th, 2008 at 7:27 am
Interesting suggestion Rakaia – if the House resumed next week, I’d agree, but another week’s recess will put some time and space between yesterday’s sad event and the run-up to the election. Having criticised John Key and Bill English for their work habits when both took time out in the school holidays, it is actually good to see the PM taking time away from politics.
August 15th, 2008 at 7:43 am
Well, paull, please take your own advice. Of course, Gottlieb Braun-Elwert’s family, associates (in the tourism industry, environmental circles and ‘tramping community) and friends (including Helen Clark and Peter Davies) have my unreserved and sincere condolences. From what little I know of the man, he achieved a hell of a lot in fifty nine years. And there sure are worse ways for someone with his background and interests to go.
But I think it’s fair comment to ask whether his death would have scored 3/4 of the front page of the Herald, extensive commentary by RNZ’s political editor Brent Edwards a few minutes ago etc., if the Prime Minister hadn’t been involved?
Well, OECD rank, if you don’t believe it’s vulgar and ugly to play politics almost literally over an open grave, I’d rather not get slimed by association thanks. But nice to see that facts are “political correctness’ and sheer common decency is nothing more than “strategic thinking”. I wish there were emoticon for ‘shaking my head in sorrow more than anger’ and ‘nice to see fuck-wittery is an affliction that transcends all barriers of politics, race, geography, class creed and sex’.
August 15th, 2008 at 7:49 am
BTW, listening to the news headlines on Nat Radio could Gottlieb Braun-Elwert be allowed the dignity of his own name rather than being endlessly described as the ‘Prime Minister’s guide’. I don’t believe he was some kind of servant who sat by the phone until Helen called…
August 15th, 2008 at 7:54 am
hmm playing politics over an open grave, you mean like with Mrs Muliaga?
One Helen Elizabeth Clark has already demonstrated that she has no such scruples. I remember the CEO of Meridian being forced to sit at the feet of the family – once HEC let him in from the cold – to apologise for the heinous crime of expected his bills to be paid.
Its important that the National Party don’t stoop to such gutter politics, but its probably a good thing that some commentators here raise the issue – it might encourage Labour to think twice and back off. Bottom line, this tragedy is about Gottlieb Braun-Elwert. Period. Let his family and friends mourn him, and keep him out of politics.
August 15th, 2008 at 8:07 am
Whaleoil seems to have missed the point entirely in terms of the comments he’s allowing. I’m not sure what David has deleted here but if they were along the lines of “the wrong climber copped it” then, though predictable, they’re not really terribly offensive. I copped it at The Standard when they posted on “Enforced Disappearnce” of political opponents by nominating Winston as the first recipient
But Gottlieb Braun-Elwert wasn’t a politician, he was a guide. And he didn’t just do something deserving of a good serve, he passed away for Chrissakes. So comments like “I don’t care a fuck about this guy dying” are just unnecessary.
If ever there was a case for keeping quiet if you can’t say something nice, then the passing of someone in the course of doing his job is surely it. I just hope he doesn’t have a family or, if he has, they don’t Google his name at some time in future.
What I said in context was:
Fuck, I don’t care about this guy dying, but it’s out of line to use this as an opportunity to rejoice.
You seem to have missed the point entirely. Yes it’s true I don’t give a fuck about this person dying as until now I had no idea nor concern as to who this person was, nor am I a mountineering fan, so I’m not going to pretend all of a sudden I feel great sorrow for a loss of such a person. The point I was making is that I don’t care about him dying, but for others who likewise don’t care but have brought politics into this is just retarded.
August 15th, 2008 at 8:17 am
At the risk of earning demerits I feel that I need to ask the question “why is this news”
Yesterday while shopping Mrs Bruv happened to witness an elderly chap collapse and die of a suspected heart attack at one of our local supermarkets despite the outstanding efforts of her pal (a Nurse) and assorted other members of the public, this tragic death did not make the news.
It is terrible when anybody dies and it is not something to be laughed at or an opportunity to score political points however IMHO the classy thing for Clark and her media people to have done would have been to keep a lid on it.
Recently we heard (well after the event) how Ron Mark (who I despise) saved the life of a young man badly injured in a motor accident, Mark and his PR people inside NZ first did not seek to make political capital out of the crash at all.
I agree with the comments of Nigel, the press, the public and the ninth floor should keep right out of this, let this poor mans family grieve in peace.
[DPF: I agree what Ron Mark did was very classy, esp how he never promoted it. But I think it is quite unfair to criticise Clark for the fact this has become public. And it is naive to think the death of someone accompanying the PM will not be a media story.
I do wish people could get over the politics and have a bit of empathy for what it must be like to have someone close to you die in front of you, and then to also be stuck with the body for hours and hours. I'd be bloody traumatised]
August 15th, 2008 at 8:18 am
Nigel: I hope you’re going to take this in the spirit with which it’s offered (and apologies for the awful cliché), but when the hell does two wrongs make a right?
August 15th, 2008 at 8:41 am
Just read the post at Whaleoil.
The funniest part is that Whaleoil assumes that some one would want to give him mouth to mouth
August 15th, 2008 at 8:43 am
Leaving aside the tragedy of this guy passing away, it is a reflection on Helen Clark and the way she has conducted herself over the years that a good proportion of NZ will be having uncharitable thoughts about this incident. I don’t know what comment has been deleted here but my initial reaction when this broke last night was the same – I was not so secretly hoping this country was to be spared further misery at the hands of the current regime. The level of hatred in the community for HC keeps on surprising me – the vehemence of normally mild mannered people is scary – that is her own doing and an indicator of further turmoil that awaits her.
August 15th, 2008 at 8:48 am
The level of hatred in the community for HC keeps on surprising me
It’s worth being aware that there is more to New Zealand than whatever community you spend your time with. I hear far more disgust directed at John Key than hatred directed at Helen Clark.
August 15th, 2008 at 8:52 am
What surprised me most about this episode was the fact that Parker and O’Connor were along for the ride. The last person with whom I would want to go on holiday would be The Boss, unless I had my nose pressed firmly between her cheeks.
August 15th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Not sure if anybody else has touched on this but Leighton Smith has just raised a very good point about this Alpine Climb by the PM.
Is this not the same Helen Clark who ripped into English and Key about taking two days off to spend with their kids over the school holidays, is this not the same Helen Clark who said that she worked much harder than the Nat’s and that she does not have time for such “luxuries”.
Just another example of Helen Clark’s hypocrisy, whats the bet that not one of our pinko media take her up on it.
August 15th, 2008 at 8:58 am
I too agree with the comments that the public and the ninth floor should keep right out of this, let this poor mans family grieve in peace.
That any man, in his youth, fit and outwardly healthy, should up and die in such a sudden manner is a warning for us all. That his family should suffer the ignominy of today’s media frenzy because of who they were working for at the time of their death.
The shame in this is the way the media are exploiting it for column inches, and the lack of respect from whoever alerted them to it in the first place.
August 15th, 2008 at 9:02 am
I do think it’s interesting that Clark had two cabinet ministers “on holiday” with her. Labour did try to make a meal of Key and English away at the same time.
I do believe they should all be allowed time off, but they have been busted for hypocracy here!
All the same, this will without doubt be a very sad and traumatic time, and no holiday now.
August 15th, 2008 at 9:03 am
Good on Helen Clark for taking a few days off and getting away from it all.
It does however bring to mind her snide and sneery comments when John Key did the same to spend some time with his family.
August 15th, 2008 at 9:11 am
This is a terrible situation for all those involved and my condolences to them all, but I would like to know where was the Diplomatic Protection Squad?
Even though Helen is on holiday I would have expected that they would have still been accompanying her and as such should have had an emergency evacuation plan in place should a medical or security situation occurred and sufficient equipment to deal with any medical emergency which should have included a portable defibrillator.
Questions should be asked what was their plan if something had happened to our Prime Minister instead of her guide and why wasn’t this plan put into action in this situation.
August 15th, 2008 at 9:13 am
I have the vision of a Simpsons episode when Patti/Thelma gave the kiss of life to soneone who collapsed……
August 15th, 2008 at 9:42 am
I am saddened by the death of Gottlieb Braun-Elbert, he was a great mountain guide now lost to this country.
But this is also a classic case showing the hypocrisy of Helen Clark – after vehement public criticism of Key and English for taking 2 days off during the school holidays to spend time with their families, she has hypocritically taken even more time out for herself. Key and English were both in communication during their break, whereas I cannot say the same responsibility was undertaken by Clark in the Southern Alps! Plus she is the PM, not just an MP. This is just another one of many examples of the double standards this woman has.
I heard the mention of 2 other ministers accompanying her – somebody please confirm that this was not a pre-election team building exercise, and that we were not paying for it all!!
August 15th, 2008 at 10:08 am
Sad day. Gottlieb was a well-known and respected mountain guide. I only met him once (I usually have worked with other guides from Twizel area), but he has made a big contribution to mountain guiding, especially in developing the Tekapo area into a destination.
I would not have wished that situation on anyone, not HC, not anyone. People should be respectful of the situation and of Gottlieb’s family and refrain from political comment. It says more about the commenters than anything or anyone else.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:14 am
I stopped reading Kiwiblog a while ago, but when I heard this news on the radio this morning I couldn’t resist and had to take a peak. It was just as expected. DPF, I think your post was decent. What a shame the comments section (once again) turned into a shambles. I honestly think it is hurting your site.
I see Whaleoil has also posted exactly as expected.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:18 am
One could say a lot of things about this, one could also say a lot of things about Mr Gottlieb Braun-Elwert as well like the forced public access onto private land issue of a few years ago and the controversy over the govts agenda driven appointments to the walking access panel and a recent bizarre discussion document/letter from the Aoraki Conservation Board to the Minister of Conservation which advocated some very extreme environmental policy positions, but….
A man has died, he had a family, wife and considering my father and his climbing partner once went through a hellish night, sleepless, stuck up a mountainside with the dead body of their friend waiting for the dawn light to bring him down to a horrified family, well, for what its worth, just this once, Helens got my sympathies as do the Gottlieb Braun-Elwerts.
P.S Well done to the people at Roundhill Ski field for all their assitance in the matter.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:21 am
stayathomemum says at 9.42am:
We’ve been paying for it for the last nine years. The tab is about to be closed this 8 November.
Be joyous in that knowledge.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:21 am
Davidn- we are now officially within a 3 month period. HC has been caught with another example of “do as I say, not as I do” with regards to a holiday.
Comments of her being busted for hypocrisy are legitimate to my mind. Don’t for a minute think she wouldn’t be behind a similar campaign if the tables were turned. Whilst the situation regarding her cover being blown are indeed very sad, that is a different issue altogether. Peters didn’t get a day off criticism even when his mother passed away!
August 15th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Ugh… I really hope I’ve got the wrong end of a bad stick, but you’re saying that you’re first thought was “I hope Helen Clark died of a heart attack in front of her husband.” Time to remind some folks of the motto of the Order of the Garter: Hon Y Soit Qui Mal Y Pense (“Shame to him who evil thinks”).
That’s about as classless as No Right Turn’s Idiot/Savant getting his glee on at the thought of Margaret Thatcher’s coffin being pelted with excrement, and her grave desecrated, after her death — which didn’t go down well around here, if my memory serves.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:32 am
I have to say I agree with completely with first time caller at 10:21 am
With all due respect to Mr Braun-Elwart it would have been a tragic situation for anyone and it would have pointed up the fragility of human life to the PM.
But putting the sentiments aside the Prime Minister is the highest elected official in New Zealand therefore when she says one thing and does another it is of significant public interest to be examined.
So lets stick to the facts ;
They are – she openly criticised John Key for taking some time off to be with his family and then she goes and does the same thing. The fact that it took a death of one of her tramping Party to highlight the hypocrisy of it all is unfortunate for her in more ways than one.
It is simply unacceptable for the Prime Minister of New Zealand to attack the Opposition Leader for taking time off to be with his family and she is secretly doing the same thing.
He needs to demand a public apology – She is an untrustworthy hypocrite.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:37 am
My condolences go out to Gottlieb’s family, not the least of which are for this episode becoming so widely publicised. When i first heard the news on TV1 last night, i was surprised that his name was already “out there”. Surely there would have been family members who didn’t know what had occurred?
Then i began thinking how would the information have got out so quickly. Whoever did release details of the death so quickly had little regard for what occurred and showed a complete lack of respect for the dead man. I only hope that person wasn’t the PM.
August 15th, 2008 at 10:47 am
NeillR says at 10.37am:
Right on NeillR. I guess the answer to the question is taboo.
“Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia”.
“There will be no loyalty, except loyalty towards the Party. There will be no love, except the love of Big Brother. There will be no laughter, except the laugh of triumph over a defeated enemy. There will be no art, no literature, no science.”
August 15th, 2008 at 11:01 am
My sympathies also go to the family.
However I cannot help but ask – why were they out there in the first place. There were severe weather warnings in place for that part of the country. I hope this was not a tragic case of “Helen knows best”.
Also interesting to note that it is only John Key and Bill English that are criticised for having leisure time with the family.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:14 am
I note that it sounds like they went in before the severe weather warning was issued. Last night, it was reported that the heavy snow in Queenstown (and Tekapo is north of there by a bit) was not expected. The severe weather warning was issued last night as well.
Also, it’s a remote site, with only communication by open radio. Generally cellphone coverage is not great in the mountains. Anyone could have heard it and reported it.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Condolences to the family and friends.
And yes, us conservatives should conduct ourselves with more dignity and restraint. On principle, if a leading politician is into tramping and relaxation occaisionally, fine. If they behave like a normal decent human being in moments of human tragedy and don’t show cowardice or other character flaws, good.
But if THEY attempt to milk the situation politically, that is their call, they asked for it. DON’T be the FIRST into the gutter. Let the Left show themselves up, THEN engage them.
Imagine the field day we’d be having over Lefties gutter politics if this exact same thing had happened to U.S. Vice President Dick Cheney, to pick the most extreme examplar of the Left’s despisal. That’s THEM. Not us. Please.
August 15th, 2008 at 11:21 am
Attacking their hypocrisy over John Key’s “time out”, too, would be perfectly appropriate, but perhaps we should even be a little restrained on that point for a decent period BECAUSE someone has died, for goodness sake. I do hope the strategists of the “right” were organising an attack on this hypocrisy absent the occurrence of a death, but……
August 15th, 2008 at 11:30 am
How about this crazy idea: DON’T BE THE FIRST IN THE GUTTER, DON’T BE THE LAST, DON’T GO THERE AT ALL? I don’t know about you Phil, but “they do it too/did it first/everyone does it/they were asking for it” are excuses for crappy behaviour I don’t accept from toddlers or teenagers. Why should it be any more so where alleged adults are concerned?
August 15th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Condolences to the man’s family. How many of us would like to go, without arning while in beautiful surroundings, doing something we love? Sympathies to those who had to pick up the pieces. It is a sad event, but the died with his boots on.
August 15th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
To say this issue will not be politicised is being naive. Unless you made this post as a sort of “condolence book” for a private person whom in death got prominence because he died while with the Prime Minister. To draw artificial lines around what can and cannot be said in this situation is making very fine distinctions indeed. You can be sure about one thing Helen Clark lives breathes and drinks politics. She said “this job is all consuming”. Indeed it is including when a tragic event happens in her presence and gets publicity. That gets political and her conduct will be closely scrutinised, as it must be at all times. She knows all that as she is a true pro. Unlike all those amatuers at a National Party cocktail function thought they could make inconsistent remarks “off the record” and get away with it. Politics at the top level is 24/7, all times, everywhere to everyone. The is NO such thing as a politics free zone at the top and certainly Helen Clark does not think there is a “politics free zone”>
August 15th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Wow, what a range of humanity is now displayed on this post I suspect the comments are very reflective of age and life experience . Gottlieb was a very well respected man , he has added much to the New Zealand communities he belonged to.
I am older and wiser and have spent enough time in the company of dead people that I can understand the impact it would have had on the PM’s climbing party.
In that sort of situation trying to do all you can to save someone does not make you a hero – it just makes you human.
DPF you have my respect for toning down the comments from those who show little respect for their fellow countrymen.
I dont want to see labour back in power and i think clarks reign has been despicable but today I feel for all those who were on that mountain.
Reminds me of the old Bloody red baron song – there are times you have to stop fighting and pay hommage to a human who may be your enemy. People who do that are heros.
roarprawn.blogspot.com
August 15th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
I hear what you are saying, Craig Ranapia. What I really mean, is that if your political enemy takes their attack on YOU into the gutter, you are entitled to do whatever it takes. Politics is not a gentleman’s club. You need to read David Horowitz on “The art of Political War”. The Left excels at defining the debate in most ungentlemanly ways, and the sad fact is that it WORKS for them. A Don Brash hasn’t a hope.
I am encouraged that DPF has been reading and quoting Horowitz. I hope Murray Mccully and the Nats “strategy” team are all also doing so.
August 15th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
How about this crazy idea: DON’T BE THE FIRST IN THE GUTTER, DON’T BE THE LAST, DON’T GO THERE AT ALL? I don’t know about you Phil, but “they do it too/did it first/everyone does it/they were asking for it” are excuses for crappy behaviour I don’t accept from toddlers or teenagers. Why should it be any more so where alleged adults are concerned?
Sounds good to me.
August 15th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
Yup, you’re entitled to do whatever it takes… which may include distinguishing yourself!
August 15th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
The Left excels at defining the debate in most ungentlemanly ways, and the sad fact is that it WORKS for them.
Phil. Come on. All politicians do that, “right” or “left”.
August 15th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
Phil. Come on. All politicians do that, “right” or “left”.
Try again Ryan. Whenever political discourse is dragged into the gutter it is invariably the left’s desparate tactics that have dragged it there. This ‘all politicians are alike’ rubbish is just that – a smokescreen thrown out by leftists in an attempt to camouflage the fact that integrity is very much the province of politicians of the right and the right alone.
When have National ever descended into the gutter to attack Labour? Never once. When have Labour frantically tried to stave off political oblivion with pathetic attempts to smear mud over National’s honest, hard-working MPs? All the time.
August 15th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
In the end it will the PMs call how she plays this out. She can either act in a dignified and ethical manner and give a clear indication she doesnt wish to gain any political points form the very sad situation.
Or she can follow her usual behavourial traits of the past nine years
August 15th, 2008 at 1:50 pm
After reading though man of these comments, I am appalled by the number of people saying things that earned demerit points.
Life and laughter over political gaffs is one thing, but to politisise the death of someone, or to wish that on someone is disgusting.
My prayers are with Mr Braun-Elwert’s family, and my thoughts go out to those humans (even if they are Ministers) that lost a fellow, human, friend.
RIP Mr Braun-Elwert’s
August 15th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Full marks to the PM for making every attempt to resucitate this man after the events described heretofore. Whilst I have no tolerance for her policies, I can appreciate the situation that has occured. Her very reduced personal presence in the media coupled with her insistance on spending time with the newly bereaved wife speaks volumes, and for that I hold Helen in the highest regard.
I do, however, hope this means the end of both her and the Labour Party indulging in political point scoring when John Key and Bill English take a few days off to be with family, as happened earlier this year.
RIP Mr Braun-Elwert.
August 15th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
The man died doing what he loved. How many of us would prefer to go that way given a choice? He had a good life. The only sad thing about it, are some of the folk here who are turnng it into something politcal. Whilst I can’t stand the woman, I’m almost certain this death was not stage-managed for her politcal gain. For Christ sake guys, at least show some class and tact, and allow her to mourn for her friend and give credence for the hard work she, et al put in to try and save hm. But most of all, show some decency for the man’s family.
August 15th, 2008 at 2:14 pm
PhilBest: Congratulations on enunciating a strategy which ought to be followed by all sides of politics. In fact I’d like to see it sworn as a blood oath, broken on penalty of death.
It’s also worth thinking about the reverse: first one out of the gutter wins a lot of respect, and probably elections, from a public who’ve had a gutsful of seeing the very worst of human nature reflected in (many, but not all) of our politicians these past few decades.
August 15th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Try again Ryan. Whenever political discourse is dragged into the gutter it is invariably the left’s desparate tactics that have dragged it there. This ‘all politicians are alike’ rubbish is just that – a smokescreen thrown out by leftists in an attempt to camouflage the fact that integrity is very much the province of politicians of the right and the right alone.
When have National ever descended into the gutter to attack Labour? Never once. When have Labour frantically tried to stave off political oblivion with pathetic attempts to smear mud over National’s honest, hard-working MPs? All the time.
I’m sure if I asked a Labour supporter, they’d have a bunch of suggestions.
August 15th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
I’m sure if I asked a Labour supporter, they’d have a bunch of suggestions.
Yes but they’d hardly be giving an objective opinion, would they?
August 15th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
If people thought Clark was claiming she never took a holiday don’t you think someone would have said at the time? Because everybody already knows that’s not true.
Are you really that starved for reasons to criticise Labour?
[DPF: To be fair Clark did criticise Key and English for taking a holiday during the year, not during the annual summer holiday break. Her cheap crack at them was somewhat hypocritical]
August 15th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Yes but they’d hardly be giving an objective opinion, would they?
Whereas you are?
August 15th, 2008 at 2:50 pm
One doesn’t need to be biased to see that Labour is doing this country in, driving us into a dead end street purely in order to satisfy its members lust for power and its’ voters lust for an easy lifestyle bludging off the hard work of others.
Conversely National are committed to rewarding hard work and creating economic growth. Who could possibly be against that? Nobody objective.
So, yes, National supporters are objective, Labour supporters aren’t. I’m sorry if this offends your leftist moral relativism but one day you will have to come to terms with the fact that there is a difference between right and wrong and it has nothing to do with what Helen Clark thinks
August 15th, 2008 at 2:58 pm
People who agree with your political stance are objective, and people who disagree are biased?
August 15th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
That’s usually the situation when you’re right, Ryan.
Or would you argue that those who believe the earth is flat are just as objective as I, who believe differently?
August 15th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
You don’t think there’s a qualitative difference between these two statements?
“The earth is not flat.”
“Labour acts purely in order to satisfy its members’ lust for power and its voters lust for bludging off the hard work of others, while National are committed to rewarding hard work and creating economic growth.”
You consider them both to be the same order of factual statements?
August 15th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
I consider both to be true.
August 15th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
Are they both measurable?
August 15th, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Something is true, or it isn’t.
Anyway enough of this University-attending moral relativist atheist bullshit. I’m sick of it. I’m going home. Ryan, as you were – I accept your apologies
August 15th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Just asking you to explain yourself, Pushmepullu. Don’t throw a tantrum.
August 15th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
you atheist !!
LOL
August 15th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Ryan Sproull, you remind me of the type C.S. Lewis talked about in “The Abolition of Man”, who pride themselves in “seeing through” EVERYTHING and as a consequence, “see” NOTHING……..
August 15th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
But seriously, you won’t do better in a study of the way the Left defines debates, than David Horowitz’ “The Art of Political War”.
He describes conservative right-wing gentlemen politicians attempting to engage in carefully considered intellectual debate, completely oblivious to the fact that the “debate” had moved on after the first 20 seconds, which was all it took for the LEFT to get THEIR SLOGANS across. It was an eye-opener to me, I tell you, you’d have thought Horowitz was actually writing about Don Brash. Horowitz said that the sad reality was that all “conservatives” could do, was play the same game. THAT is why I keep saying that “Labour cares more about snails than humans”, repeated ad nauseum, is far more effective than a 20-point plan when it comes to winning an election. The lengthy rational debates that go on in universities and on blog sites are almost pointless in comparison.
August 15th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Horowitz rocks
I would really like to see DPF feature more of his writings.
August 15th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
pushmepullu, you’d probably enjoy THIS recent essay from another author at Horowitz’ “Frontpage Magazine”:
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.aspx?GUID=A027267D-1F45-4226-8289-8779A520AF2A
August 16th, 2008 at 5:07 am
More debate on the issue over at Not PC:
Tragedy on the mountain
Interesting. People vs Sheeple.
August 16th, 2008 at 5:17 am
Mean while at No Minister:
Dear Leader in Lake Tekapo Death Drama
A popular topic in the blogsphere.
August 17th, 2008 at 5:45 am
More grist for the mill over on Stuff:
PM tells of attempt to save guide’s life
Naughty naughty.
August 17th, 2008 at 8:54 am
A previous poster said it best: “Why is this news?” Death through a cardiac event is an hourly phenomenon, from memory, it’s the major cause of adult death in NZ. It really is no biggie – Hell I’ve survived a couple of chest grippers myself.
The answer of course is that Helen Clark was involved.
Now whether this guy’s death in intimate proximity to her resonated in some sympathetic way with her psyche is up for speculation but that’s best left as a matter of conscience between her and whatever deity she acknowledges. Who knows The Real Helen Clark – the one who lies awake at 3 in the morning with her brain afire?
No. The real issue is that *everything* Clark does or is involved in is Political. So. Will she follow the instincts of a lifetime and use this episode to her own cynical PR-based political advantage by parlaying it into a choreographed media theme designed to elicit a sympathetic response beyond the Beltway? Or will she elect to do otherwise?
It will be interesting and instructive to see.
August 17th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
DPF
Initially I was somewhat surprised that you dished out demerits with undue haste on the day this story broke, I can see why (while not agreeing) you would decide to delete some of those comments but the rest (the ones I read before you deleted them) attacked Clark for milking this story for political gains.
I must admit that I thought that some of the comments might have been a little of over the top but given Clark’s history of using any chance to grab the spotlight it was not unreasonable for some here to claim that she would do so again.
Over the last couple of days I had come to the opinion that you might have been right, perhaps this was one story that the PM would not use for political gain and that perhaps you have been right in the first place to deleted the more extreme examples, it seemed that the PM was happy to let the man rest in piece and let the story fade away.
Well DPF it seems that you were wrong, todays unbelievably arrogant (She begins to sound more and more like Chavez every week) SST interview with dear corrupt leader about renaming a mountain range after the unfortunate guide (just because he was a friend of the PM) shows that she is without doubt a shameless and nasty piece of slime.
It seems that our PM is continuing to be as “vicious, nasty and deceitful as she needs to be” to retain power, nothing like a couple of Olympic gold medals to knock the PM off the front page and we cant have that in election year so she reaches right into the gutter and pulls this story out again.
DPF, given the PM’s reprehensible actions over the death of the guide I think it might be in order for you to rescind the demerits you dished out, after all they were right and sadly you got it wrong.
August 17th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Helen Clark a heroine as well? Do me a favour please, not all of us are brain dead!
August 18th, 2008 at 9:26 am
[url]http://www.stuff.co.nz/sundaystartimes/4658698a6005.html[/url]
“Obviously it’s a sad and distressing time”.
Sure, so sad and distressing that the first things she did was to conduct media interviews.
August 19th, 2008 at 4:51 am
big bruv says on August 17th, 2008 at 5:20 pm:
I’m all for you comment there big bruv.
I think the point being made regarding the censorship is that it is signaling to various leftie voices in the blogsphere, that from time to time kiwiblog will meet their shrill demands to censor the comments on kiwiblog. It doesn’t matter what comments are censored just so long as an example can be pointed to. I can’t remember the last time I saw such heavy handed censorship on kiwiblog. Usually names are deleted within some comments if the names are subject to court ordered suppression. Sometimes moderated comments never appear.
I find the whole censorship issue on this thread sad, not least because it has changed my perceptions of David. No longer representing one of the good guys fighting the good fight, he lowers himself with these actions. These actions are not that of a modern libertarian leaning National member but that of an old school conservative, preserving the status quo, following the mob mentally of the sheeple rather than leading by example and letting people think for themselves and making up their own minds. Before the actions on this thread I thought David stood more to the Don Brash side of the party in terms of thinking. Turns out that these actions don’t even represent a John Key approach but are instead right out of the Bill English playbook. That doesn’t bode well for the long term future (21%).
Big Bruv, your pleas for rescindment will remain unanswered. The injustice will persist. We will remain martyrs to the cause.
August 19th, 2008 at 6:49 am
Hulun has no life outside of politics, what do you expect
What she doesnt realise is that the rest of NZ do have a life, and they just dont connect with her.
Bye Hulun.