More on refusal to serve “Israelis”
The ODT reports further on the controversy over the Invercargill cafe that refused to serve two women of Israeli origin.
“Mrs Bennie, of Makarewa, a New Zealand citizen who has lived here for seven years including five years in Waikouaiti, said she was shocked when she and her sister, visiting from Israel, were told to leave the cafe.
“I felt the kind of racism people were exposed to in the 1940s and ’50s,” she said.
I didn’t catch on to this detail yesterday, but one of the sisters is a NZ citizen. So those who tried to excuse the action as not being racist because it was about nationality not ethnicity are wrong. Her nationality is New Zealand.She basically got refused because she was Jewish. Does anyone think an Israeli Arab would have been refused service?
Big kudos though to Javed Khan, President of the Federation of Islamic Associations of New Zealand who said:
“I can understand where they are coming from,” FIANZ president Javed Khan said.
“But if their action constitutes a breach of the Human Rights Act . . . then we shouldn’t breach the law of the country.
Also pleasing:
Dunedin Turkish cafe owners are not taking the same stance as Mr Tekinkaya.
Galata Turkish Cafe owner Ali Akman, himself a Turkish Muslim, said he believed what the Invercargill restaurateurs had done was wrong.
“He shouldn’t have. Any food premises is for eating and having fun. It is not for political discussions or arguments. This is wrong.”
He hoped the incident would not reflect badly on the Turkish community.
Ozan Turkish Cafe owner Murat Bay also feared the effect the incident would have on people’s view of the Turkish community.
He did not think the same would happen in any of Dunedin’s Turkish restaurants.
“We do not have such fanatics here.”
And here is the final irony:
“Obviously, he doesn’t like Israel, and I don’t blame him. I’m not a big supporter of Israel at the moment.
But he didn’t even bother finding out what my opinion was,” she said.
Mrs Bennie worked at Turkish restaurant Paasha while studying at the University of Otago. She missed Dunedin culture.
It was a “bit more tolerant” than Invercargill, she said.
So this cafe banned a NZ citizen who actually agrees with him, in relation to the Gaza conflict it seems. But hey she speaks Hebrew so she gets banned.
January 16th, 2009 at 8:06 am
Is the cafe owner an immigrant? If so, presumably he was interviewed by immigration staff or filled in some forms when he applied for permanent residence. Did they ever ask him “are you a racist”? If so, he either lied and should now be deported for not telling the truth. Or he told the truth and shouldn’t have been admitted in the first place.
January 16th, 2009 at 8:18 am
This just in from the New York Times …
“Israeli forces shelled areas deep inside Gaza City on Thursday, hitting the headquarters of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency and injuring at least three people among the hundreds taking shelter in the compound, according to United Nations officials and witnesses.
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel expressed regret for the strike but said that Israeli forces were fired on by Hamas militants from just outside the United Nations compound and the militants then ran inside to take cover, according to Mr. Olmert’s spokesman, Mark Regev. ”
So if Hamas take refuge in Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey, Greece, Italy or hey the US Israel is entitled to shell those countries?
There will never be peace while Israel behaves like this. There ought to be sanctions and a UN peacekeeping force. And the actions of a Turkish cafe owner in Southland really do pale in comparison.
January 16th, 2009 at 8:22 am
Those who support this guy need to take a look at themselves. You are now taking the same postion as Nazi Germany in 1936.
And a special message for “fred” don’t bring your racist shit to my site. It actually IS my country, by right of birth ancestory (800 years of it) and the fact that every generation of my family has defended it. And telling me to get out because you think I’m telling someone else to get out doesn’t stike you as conflicting concepts?
Piss off back to the Tame Itis training camps and hunt some more pigs with napalm you psyco.
You clearly support racism when its directed at Jews and people with light skin. And for love of god txt spk is for cell phones you retard.
January 16th, 2009 at 8:27 am
“This just in from the New York Times …”
and as I said the first time you posted- who gives a damn what is written in that completely discredited rag the NY Times?? The paper is the foundation stone of the completely false and completely untrustworthy edifice that the mainstream media have become since they fell so completely under the control of the left.
Her’es a good example of other manipulation by left wing propagandists posong as journalists at the San Francisco Chronicle-
http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_september_24_2005/anatomy_of_a_photograph/
You want the truth, don’t waste your time with such blatantly left wing sources.
January 16th, 2009 at 8:32 am
So the “truth” can only be found in right wing sources, up to and inluding 2005? I suppose you also think Fox News is credible. Boy, the gullibility of the right knows no bounds.
Piss off back to your cave HeWhoJumpsAtShadows.
January 16th, 2009 at 8:44 am
Redbaiter you have to be kidding??
BBC – http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7831870.stm
“The UN’s relief agency, Unrwa, said part of its HQ in Gaza caught fire after being hit by Israeli shells. ”
Sydney Morning Herald – http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/israeli-shells-strike-un-compound/2009/01/15/1231608891779.html
“The UN said three shells containing white phosphorus had struck the main compound belonging to its Relief and Works Agency, setting one building on fire and injuring three people.”
CNN – http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/01/15/hancocks.gaza.un.fire.cnn
“The U.N. says Israeli artillery hit its aid headquarters compound in Gaza City, setting their buildings on fire.”
Even Fox news – http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,480052,00.html
“The U.N. refugee agency also said its Gaza headquarters was struck by Israeli artillery fire and the building was ablaze.
The building was hit by what was believed to be three white phosphorous shells, spokesman Chris Gunness said. The weapons burn at extremely high temperatures and easily set fires.”
Are you calling Fox left wing?
January 16th, 2009 at 8:45 am
University studies have shown Fox News to be more balanced than any other news outlets. Its why they lead the ratings with viewer numbers that are sometimes twice those of all the opposition put together. You keep spinning your lies and propaganda though you sappy little school boy narcissist. As always, the left’s mission is to cloud the truth as much as possible.
January 16th, 2009 at 8:47 am
This is not about passports, apperance or politics, it is an issue of property rights!
If the shop owner refuses to sell …, that is sufficient in itself.
His right to do so exists because he IS the owner of the goods.
Would you collectivists insist that the shop “always be open” is it not discriminatory to close the shop at say Easter?
Lawrence oO
January 16th, 2009 at 8:49 am
And these University Studies, where do they come from? The same universities YOU see as hotbeds of socialists? Ooo eer, its all a communist ploy, isn’t it?
How about you post links or references to a few?
January 16th, 2009 at 8:51 am
“Obviously, he doesn’t like Israel, and I don’t blame him. I’m not a big supporter of Israel at the moment. ”
Kind of encapsulates the Jewish problem don’t it. Most of them (in America) voted for Obama, who is anti Israel/ pro Palestinian, and against John McCain, who has stood by Israel for most of his political life. I admire the resolution and courage of the IDF, but I refuse to go out on any kind of supportive limb for a people who are this confused in their political thinking.
January 16th, 2009 at 8:53 am
Threadjack alert. The lieft must be tired of having their hypocrisy about racial prejudice repeatedly highlighted.
January 16th, 2009 at 8:56 am
“How about you post links or references to a few?”
Go away moron. If you don’t know about the studies, (which have been referenced so many times before and are well known to those who actually have a fucken idea on the subject and are not just mindless propagandists) you shouldn’t even be issuing your fatuous uninformed opinions on the matter. ..and fuck off anyway, this thread is on the Invercargill cafe owner issue, not Fox News.
January 16th, 2009 at 8:56 am
This just in from the NY Times “we are so left, we make people sick and are going bust. yes we had to sell our building”
HAHAHAHA
anyway, maybe send in that group of pissed off teenagers that beat up newsboy! hopefully his business has taken a hit.
as for bombing the UN – who doesnt want to do that? they need a good clean out!
January 16th, 2009 at 9:07 am
It was the Fox channel that first stirred up the moon landing conspiracy theory by airing a silly program based on the rantings of a ’self taught physicist’… obviously a trust worthy source.
Moonbat central.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:11 am
Sorry DPF – I think you are too nice. Javed Khan just gave more weasel words. Every time he makes a statement on Islamic or Muslim racsim he includes a “but” to excuse the action. What he said was the cafe owner did the right thing but the law says he didn’t.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:14 am
So far as this dickhead in Invercargill is concerned, I think he should be banning himself from his own cafe for the same reasons: That is, the Turks are doing to the Kurds exactly what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians for the same reasons. Just not the same international fuss being made about it.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:17 am
Fox News – That channel is made up of straight news desk shows and also opinion shows. They are different. Their news is the most ‘fair and balanced’ in the US TV media as pointed out by the studies Redbaitrer mentioned (which I have looked at online) but the opinion shows mostly tend to a more conservative/right wing bent. But you lefties will be happy – the Demobamas are going to shut down all media that doesn’t say what they want people to hear anyway.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:17 am
“So if Hamas take refuge in Egypt, Lebanon, Turkey, Greece, Italy or hey the US Israel is entitled to shell those countries”
why not, America, Russia and China now reserve the right to launch a preemptive Nuclear strike on any country possessing the capability or will to create a weapon of mass destruction, All major Super powers Claim the right to launch preemptive strikes against “Possible Terrorists” in any country, period, and they have done so numerous times.
But you cry about Israel shelling a Hijacked building in a war zone? and extrapolate it into the right for preemptive strikes which every major player has already adopted, are you mad?
January 16th, 2009 at 9:18 am
yea but kurds arent jews.. they dont run the world blah blah blah
January 16th, 2009 at 9:18 am
“Did they ever ask him “are you a racist”?”
Wow, it is just so distressing to observe the shallowness of thought that exists in NZ. In a free country, a man has a right to be racist. Especially given the subjective nature of the allegation and its frequent use as a political smear designed to shut down debate.
You may object to what you perceive as racism, but your moral right to object extends to your personal and or public condemnation of whosoever you may perceive as a racist. It does not extend to legislation that attempts to control thought and speech and define what views this man can express on his own damn property.
Sure. The guy is an arsehole. But in a free country, he is not a criminal, and in a free country, he does not suffer discrimination himself under the law for his political or personnel views.
Lance. Davidp. It is essential that people like you wake up to what you are doing. You just cannot legislate in such issues. It opens the floodgates to the use of government to shape public thinking, and this is a concept totally abhorrent to anyone who values freedom and individual rights.
(BTW way, isn’t Judaism a religion rather than a race?)
January 16th, 2009 at 9:20 am
It’s not about race, it’s about a war. No one was getting chucked from cafes before Gaza became a battlefield.
As pointed out above, if we wrongly view it as racism, the left will use it to pass hate crime legislation.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:28 am
maybe we should clear away all the shit and get to the heart of this.What the turkish gentleman has done,is against the law in NZ and is abhorent.
z
z
January 16th, 2009 at 9:30 am
The issue here is property rights: if the cafe *owner* doesn’t want to serve Israelis that’s fine. If he doesn’t want to serve Wellingtonians that’s fine. If he doesn’t want to serve pink Martians that’s fine. It’s his property and he should be free to control who enters it.
When “human rights” are allowed to over rule property rights, e.g. if the cafe owner was forced to serve Israelis, then we lose our freedom. So-called “hate speech” laws are the same thing, i.e. they violate a person’s right to say whatever they like when they are using their own property to say it.
There’s no such thing as “human rights”, there’s only property rights:
http://kiwipolemicist.wordpress.com/2008/11/04/there-is-no-such-thing-as-human-rights-a-classical-liberal-perspective-on-the-electoral-finance-act/
January 16th, 2009 at 9:34 am
Heh, this story reminds me of that “Flight of the Conchords” episode, “Drive by”. Maybe the Israeli ladies were too slow in displaying the ´bird´.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:37 am
Laws has just raised a good point on Radio Live.
Where are Javad Khan and the useless Labour MP Ashraf Choudhury on this issue?, as usual the so called “moderate” Muslims remain silent.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:39 am
Its not about a war at all. Its about using a war to justify racial, religious and cultural bigotry. By a fucking immigrant.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:43 am
“What the turkish gentleman has done,is against the law in NZ and is abhorent.”
It may well be abhorent, but to me, its not as abhorent as your fucken “law”. Fascist.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:45 am
big bruv (2262) Vote: 0 1 Says:
January 16th, 2009 at 9:37 am
Laws has just raised a good point on Radio Live.
Where are Javad Khan and the useless Labour MP Ashraf Choudhury on this issue?, as usual the so called “moderate” Muslims remain silent.
More shit from that shit Laws. If he wants to “know where” they are, all he has to do is phone and invite them on his shit show. But then, that would leave the little shit with nothing to rant about, wouldn’t it?
January 16th, 2009 at 9:46 am
I’m afraid the bigoted Invercargill café owners who refused service are going to have a lot more to worry about than Israeli self defence policies when Rio Tinto and Sumitomo Chemical Co. finally decide to close the smelter at Tiwai Point. 900 staff and contractors, 2600 downstream jobs, 20 percent of the Southland economy disappearing this year. I expect these café owners will be desperate for any customers no matter what language their speaking or country of origin.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:47 am
Judaism is both a race and a religion
January 16th, 2009 at 9:47 am
So borker doesn’t like Laws. Who the fuck cares? Got a point you dimbulb narcissist?
January 16th, 2009 at 9:48 am
“Judaism is both a race and a religion”
Impossible.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:53 am
DPF, I disagree. I do not think Javed Khan deserves any kudos at all.
I do not think the Israeli’s should have bombed the UN building but I can understand where they are coming from. Sound familiar?
It sounds very much like Javed Khan’s condemnation of the appalling racist behaviour of the Turkish café owners.
I am pro Israeli. Having said that, I do not think Israel is blameless and Israel does overreact at times. However, the actions of these two Turkish café owners and the very weak condemnation of their action by the President of the Federation of Muslim Associations of New Zealand makes me a lot less concerned about any excesses by the Israelis.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:56 am
“Judaism is both a race and a religion”
Impossible.
Look up the term ethnoreligious and get back to me
January 16th, 2009 at 9:57 am
Mr Redbaiter,oh dear.No point calling me names.It is a terrible situation over in the mid east,and what has happened in Invecargill does not help one jot.
January 16th, 2009 at 9:59 am
Red continual refers others as “half educated, under educated, dumb, dimbulb” etc show a disturbing self superiority that makes a mockery of most of what he has say.
IMHO
Grow up and join the debate like an adult.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:00 am
what happens if the Dime Bar & Grill says to a muslim – you and your ninja wife arent welcome here, get out!
January 16th, 2009 at 10:03 am
“Grow up and join the debate like an adult”
Yet another example of statist brainwashing. I shall write here and express myself in the terms I wish, (unless they offend the host,) and if you do not approve of my style, then exercise your personal choice and do not read and do not respond. Give off with your control freak mentality. This is the blogosphere, and this is a blog, not a classroom where you as teacher can control and shape thought and speech as you wish.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:06 am
“Look up the term ethnoreligious and get back to me”
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ethnoreligious
January 16th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Well maybe now they will gain a deeper understanding for your choice of username Red
or am i giving them to much credit? lol!
Any way i am posting of topic …
what would happen is Banana Llama said to the Gentleman Arab and his ninja masked partner that they where not allowed on my Property because of the region they came from?
January 16th, 2009 at 10:08 am
“It is a terrible situation over in the mid east,”
Did you read Richard Hurst’s post???
January 16th, 2009 at 10:10 am
Llama, these people make North Korean school children look like Jeffersonian liberals.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:11 am
Another Minto Moment! This from today’s Otago Daily Times:
Appeal to grandmaster to withdraw from festival
By James Beech on Fri, 16 Jan 2009
The only Israeli grandmaster competing in the 2009 Queenstown Classic International Chess Festival has been asked to withdraw by political activist John Minto.
Global Peace and Justice Auckland urged chess player Victor Mikhalevski to make the “sacrifice” and sit out the tournament, which began yesterday.
Mr Minto, a GPJA spokesman, wrote to Mr Mikhalevski, saying the events in Gaza were an “outrage”.
In a statement, Mr Minto and fellow GPJA spokesman Mike Treen said if Mr Mikhalevski did not withdraw, they had asked New Zealand Chess Federation president and tournament organiser Paul Spiller to request he step down.
Mr Minto said the letter had been sent a day before the tournament began but no response had been received from Mr Mikhalevski or Mr Spiller.
Mr Spiller and Mr Mikhalevski did not want to comment, the latter saying he preferred to focus on the tournament.
Mr Minto, a major figure in the 1981 Springboks tour protest, called on Israeli tennis player Shahar Peer to withdraw from the ASB Classic tournament in Auckland earlier this month.
She declined to do so.
That’s the end of the Otago Daily Times story…
So to hell with Minto and his media sponsor Fairfax.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:18 am
You’d find out that the afterlife really does exist
January 16th, 2009 at 10:22 am
Yes,I did read Richard Hursts post,and your point?
January 16th, 2009 at 10:22 am
“Mrs Bennie, of Makarewa, a New Zealand citizen who has lived here for seven years including five years in Waikouaiti, said she was shocked when she and her sister, visiting from Israel, were told to leave the cafe”.
Your assignment, dear readers, is to compare Mrs Bennie’s suffering over not being able to have coffee at her cafe of choice with the suffering of tens of thousands of Gazans, many of whom have witnessed untold death and destruction.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:26 am
ross – don’t be such a numpty. the racist cafe owner has broken the law. what part of that do you find hard to understand?
January 16th, 2009 at 10:27 am
The Labour dept and every other dept are very philisophical about this situation, Philosophical meaning lenient.
None of them have sprung into action. They’ve just pontificated on law but not upholding it.
Reinforcing my belief this country is run on sound bites and cliche.
I want to see a business saying ‘Israelis welcome here.’
The labour dept will be visibly seen making warnings at the scene, well b4 their 10 am cuppa!
January 16th, 2009 at 10:28 am
> the racist cafe owner has broken the law.
And compared with the killing of Gazans that breach is what? A drop in the ocean? I couldn’t agree more.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:28 am
> I want to see a business saying ‘Israelis welcome here.’
I don’t think you’ll find one in Gaza at the moment.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:29 am
Senzafine:
“Its about using a war to justify racial, religious and cultural bigotry. By a fucking immigrant.”
Appears you don’t even need a war to justify YOUR bigotry. Nice one.
Dime:
“what happens if the Dime Bar & Grill says to a muslim – you and your ninja wife arent welcome here, get out!”
The exact same thing as is happening to the Invercargill owner, I would imagine. The press would be camped on your doorstep, you’d get a letter from the Race Relations Conciliator telling you to stop, David Swartz would issue a “tsk tsk” press statement, and the left-wing blogs would call you a racist (just like the good folk on this thread are).
But, of course, you’d never say such a thing. ‘Cause you are far too reasonable and tolerant an individual. I mean, it just shines out of your comments.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:30 am
“the racist cafe owner has broken the law.”
I dunno that he has. Discrimination (legally speaking) can only occur when the victim is perceived by the government (Gestapo) as a disadvantaged minority, and is usually only applied when said victim has suffered some financial loss, as in being dismissed from a job or such.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:31 am
“The only Israeli grandmaster competing in the 2009 Queenstown Classic International Chess Festival has been asked to withdraw by political activist John Minto.”
The tennis player didn’t have to stand down
neither does the chess player.
The Chess fraternity are going to embarass themselves if they fold to this agenda
January 16th, 2009 at 10:32 am
Wikiriwhis,
“They’ve just pontificated on law but not upholding it.”
You might actually wish to read the Human Rights Act 1993. The Commission is required to try and mediate disputes like this one before engaging in any prosecution action. Or would you rather have a state agency that, whenever it believes there has been discriminatory conduct by a business, can rush straight into court (thereby requiring the defendant to incur significant legal fees)?
January 16th, 2009 at 10:33 am
ross – the Chinese government is responsible to all sorts of human right abuses. Yet I’d wager that you buy Chinese-made clothes and other products.
If you want to demand some kind of equitable morality from your fellow NZers, then make sure you are personally doing this across all sources of human suffering.
Otherwise you’re just another anti-Semite… and the world needs less of that kind of bigotry.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:37 am
Redbaiter,
““the racist cafe owner has broken the law.” I dunno that he has.”
As you are so fond of saying to others, you are an ignorant dipshit who shouldn’t speak of things you know nothing about (or similar such language … feel free to make it up for yourself …).
Human Rights Act 1993, s.44
Provision of goods and services
(1) It shall be unlawful for any person who supplies goods, facilities, or services to the public or to any section of the public—
(a) To refuse or fail on demand to provide any other person with those goods, facilities, or services; or
(b) To treat any other person less favourably in connection with the provision of those goods, facilities, or services than would otherwise be the case,—
by reason of any of the prohibited grounds of discrimination.
s.21: Prohibited grounds of discrimination
(1) For the purposes of this Act, the prohibited grounds of discrimination are—
…
(g) Ethnic or national origins, which includes nationality or citizenship:
January 16th, 2009 at 10:39 am
AG,
The labour dept is very quick to prosecute holiday traders (why fuel stations get away with it is beyond me)
But dragging the chain in this situation.. which is very apparent.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:41 am
On the ethnicity or religion argument, Shlomo Sand, Professor of History at Tel Aviv University has a few words:
http://mondediplo.com/2008/09/07israel
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966952.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959229.html
January 16th, 2009 at 10:42 am
A comment made on the heralds web site this morning. If its correct then a very good point.
“Why stop at refusing to serve Israelis? Be brave and ban the things that really matter to your daily lives. I am laughing at packets of pretzels from Israel disappearing from supermarket shelves.
Come on Muslims be brave. Turn off unanimously your computers and laptops. Pentium, Intel, Centrino are all Israeli technology. Stop sending SMS , text messages, to each other, it is Israeli technology. Log off the internet; ADSL, broadband is Israeli technology too. Turn off your TVs. Digital broadcasting is also Israeli technology. How about you cancel your scheduled appointments for CT Scan and MRI. These were also invented in Israel and licensed to Siemens. Give up your places in the waiting list to those who really value Israel’s contributions to civilisation and human well being!”
January 16th, 2009 at 10:42 am
Wikiriwhis:
The Labour Department has absolutely no jurisdictional mandate over this issue. They do over holiday trading. Hence the difference.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:46 am
I agree they should prosecute as well – at least an official warning or something similiar if allowed for by law.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:47 am
@Lance: Just think about Redbaiters name…like most baiters, best to just ignore his generally unproductive overly emotional comments.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:49 am
fishe,
“I agree they should prosecute as well”
From the Human Rights Commission website, regarding the process for “resolving” complaints under the Human Rights Act.
“What happens?
Staff will provide information to try to help solve your complaint. If your complaint looks like unlawful discrimination, one of our mediators will get in touch. The mediator will help both parties in a dispute to find possible solutions.
Mediators don’t take sides, but will ensure that what happens is fair. Most complaints are sorted out by informal intervention or mediation. The results can include an apology, an agreement not to do the same thing in the future, education or training, and compensation.
What if mediation doesn’t work?
Mediation settles most complaints. If it does not work out, a complainant can take their issue to the Human Rights Review Tribunal. This is like a court. You can apply for free legal representation to the Office of Human Rights Proceedings.”
January 16th, 2009 at 10:51 am
Like most such legislation so full of holes it is a joke. For example, “less favourably” is so subjective no real judicial system would ever entertain the thought of using such vague terminology. If one wanted, one could attempt prosecution of someone for sneezing under that legislation. Here’s the facts. He asked the customers to go and they agreed to go. A verbal contract. He did not physically eject them or threaten them with violence.
God you commies with your anti freedom concepts are disgusting abusers of the judicial system. You are a dangerous threat to my freedom and my pursuit of happiness AG, and it is a tragedy that such as you are abroad in such numbers in what was once such a great little country, (and writing such disgusting legislation.)
Why wasn’t Klark prosecuted for her attacks on the Brethren?
January 16th, 2009 at 10:54 am
goodgod said “It’s not about race, it’s about a war. No one was getting chucked from cafes before Gaza became a battlefield.
As pointed out above, if we wrongly view it as racism, the left will use it to pass hate crime legislation.”
goodgod – just in case you missed it, the left isn’t in a position to pass ANY legislation now
January 16th, 2009 at 10:54 am
“I agree they should prosecute as well – at least an official warning or something similiar if allowed for by law.”
Who cares about your “agreement”? Got a damn argument, or is the expression of ideologically/government promoted bigotry all you’re good for??
January 16th, 2009 at 10:56 am
Typical Red. Gets schooled in an argument, so he switches his line of attack. Your claim was the law was not broken. I proved it was. To quote the great man, “I won, you lost, eat that”.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:57 am
Patrick
I know in the late 70’s the ‘Arabs’ warned Mercedes that if they didn’t stop selling cars to Israel they would boycott the Mercedes brand.
The car maker said “go ahead”. The moral dilemma had to then be faced… stand by their convictions or do without my Mercedes……. Merc’s sales went on unaffected.
January 16th, 2009 at 10:58 am
“what happens if the Dime Bar & Grill says to a muslim – you and your ninja wife arent welcome here, get out!”
Dime, If you’re a white kiwi? our comrade de Bres would own your ass, quicker then you could say “you and your ninja wife ”
He’d go after you quicker then the terrorists are firing Qassams
January 16th, 2009 at 11:02 am
Lance
It’s far easier for them to pick on innocent cafe customers, or israeli tennis players. These are the actions of bullies – the same bullies who support terrorists who hide behind innocent civilians and fire rockest at other innocent civilians
January 16th, 2009 at 11:03 am
I think the Turkish Muslim is quite within his rights to refuse to serve anybody.
It maybe against the law, but most people speed, or park badly.
If he started to fire Quassam Rockets at Yid Property in NZ, then there might be retaliation.
Then he and brother Islamists might end up being responsible for the death of others in the area!
January 16th, 2009 at 11:05 am
Dime, If you’re a white kiwi? our comrade de Bres would own your ass, quicker then you could say “you and your ninja wife ”
He’d go after you quicker then the terrorists are firing Qassams
What if dime where to then fire at the gentleman’s house with home made rockets and make claims of oppression?
January 16th, 2009 at 11:06 am
“The only Israeli grandmaster competing in the 2009 Queenstown Classic International Chess Festival has been asked to withdraw by political activist John Minto.”
Ah yes, I remember it well, the multitude of press statements put out by Minto asking the Soviet grandmasters to pull out of chess tournments because of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in the 80’s
January 16th, 2009 at 11:06 am
“Your claim was the law was not broken. I proved it was.”
You proved nothing. Let’s see him convicted in one of your disgusting collectivist kangaroo courts. At least then you will have the semblance of a case. (Then you can “re-educate” him, you repellent communist.)
January 16th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Isn’t it time we wheeled out our glorious human rights commissioner. Why an issue like this should be right up his alley, this should be his bread and butter. Whats the bet if this cafe owner was a middle age taxpaying honky the dogs of war, or the politically correct, would have been unleashed upon him.
January 16th, 2009 at 11:07 am
Why would i want to justify it? Its pretty plain and simple. If you Emigrate to a country, you need to abide by their laws.
January 16th, 2009 at 11:08 am
“You proved nothing. ”
Whatever lets you sleep at night, loser.
January 16th, 2009 at 11:09 am
Glut the problem I have with your argument is that the law only seems enforced when it’s people like me exercising my property rights
you either have a law, or you dont
January 16th, 2009 at 11:12 am
senzafine
Would the cafe owners actions be any better or worse if he were born in NZ? Do native born folks get some sort of extra right to disobey NZ’s laws that “fucking immigrants” don’t have? If not, then your argument simply seeks to cover up your basic bigotry. You and the cafe owner should sit down for a coffee. You’ve more in common that you might think…
January 16th, 2009 at 11:16 am
“These are the actions of bullies”
That is right, and they will bully this cafe owner through the process they call “Mediation”, always with the threat of a big government prosecution to back them up, and an endless supply of taxpayer funds. Damn Stalinist scum.
Look, the cafe owner is a fool and perhaps a racist or whatever, but to me, his harassment and possible prosecution by a collection of jack booted government goons trying to control thought and speech is much more offensive.
Google Mark Steyn’s recent run in with these stomach churning fascist scum (in Canada) for an example of where this can lead.
January 16th, 2009 at 11:19 am
In the same way, that Turk can’t be expected to get much more business from reasonably minded Kiwis.
If it was a honky pom immigrant refusing to serve a paki. He would get the full weight of the law brought down on him.
Funny that! Not!
Just shows how the Left wing anti-semites have managed to influence every aspect of NZ life.
January 16th, 2009 at 11:20 am
You know what woul dhappen. The race Relations Twat would be on TV pontificating and Javed Khan would be talking about Islamophobia. I cant wait til he sees my Mohammed was a pedophile tee-shirt.
January 16th, 2009 at 11:24 am
” I cant wait til he sees my Mohammed was a pedophile tee-shirt.”
Classic!!!
I got thrown out of a swimming pool in Oz in a real hurry. Just couldn’t understand what all the commotion was about.
Looked down at my trunks to see that the ‘S’ had fallen off my new bathing wear. (it’s a joke!)
January 16th, 2009 at 11:29 am
Speaking of the MSM you have to wonder what part they are playing
“Israeli attacks in the Gaza Strip on Thursday struck two high-rise buildings housing international media, drawing sharp criticism from the Foreign Press Association. Julian Rake, the deputy bureau chief for the Reuters news agency in Jerusalem, said the strike hit around the 14th floor, two floors above the agency’s office. In a statement, the Israeli military said it targets only locations used by Hamas “for terrorist purposes,” or to fire at Israeli troops or civilians. Rake said his staffers and other journalists in the building were certain that “at no stage” did militants fire from inside the building.”
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i7TlqVT_F1SFhRyNY0IjlMc8tZUwD95NOQLO1
Why didn’t he just say “there were no militants in or around our building”, maybe they were present and not firing? or were they firing from the roof of the building?
I consider the same about the UNRWA
January 16th, 2009 at 11:31 am
Don’t be thick. There were no israeli tennis stars hassled by protestors in Auckland before this war, and no patrons thrown from turkish cafe’s in Invercargill before this war either. You may want it to be about race, ‘cos it’s easy to get all angry and self righteous over that, but unfortuantely, it just isn’t.
You reckon John Key is rightwing then? and that the next election is won? and that our institutions are free of liberal socialist group think overnight? the think again.
January 16th, 2009 at 11:34 am
The UN love the Palestine, because it makes them feel good keeping them dependent.
And it secures their careers, and pension advantage.
Still the UN advisors get a lot more sex action in Africa.
Or make more graft money in Iraq or similar!!
The UN are out of control. And totally useless in real terms. Only interested in ‘pet projects’.
January 16th, 2009 at 11:41 am
It’s about war. Not racism. Further in the article he says so himself.
January 16th, 2009 at 11:44 am
So the New Zealand citizen was thrown out of the cafe ‘not’ because of her race?
Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining
January 16th, 2009 at 11:46 am
Patrick – re Reuters. There have been suggestions that Reuters is controlled/owned by Saudi interests. It’s like chasing the wind trying to confirm that – I’ve looked but can’t find solid evidence… just lots of speculation.
January 16th, 2009 at 11:52 am
goodgod “It’s about war. Not racism. Further in the article he says so himself.”
If it was really about war, not racism, he would be consistent in banning other races as well, including turks who are persucuting the Kurds, as I pointed out earlier.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:00 pm
So it’s about war is it, OK then, the following are banned from my place of work.
Palestinians
Iraqi’s
Iran i’s
Catholics
Muslims
Afghani’s
Urerewa Maori
Sudanese
Pakistanis
Liverpool football fans
Canterbury Rugby fans.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:05 pm
“Look, the cafe owner is a fool and perhaps a racist or whatever, but to me, his harassment and possible prosecution by a collection of jack booted government goons trying to control thought and speech is much more offensive”
Redbaiter, my point is IMO he wont be harassed or prosecuted – because his racism fits with the pinkos. I want to see them sufficiently embarrassed into using their laws against someone peddling their own thoughts
You either have the law, or you dont
January 16th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
big bruv
“So it’s about war is it, OK then, the following are banned from my place of work.”
….
“Canterbury Rugby fans.”
Now that sort of discrimination has my approval
January 16th, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Lance, for fucks sake Arabs and Jews are the same bloody race, they are all Semites.
He is against Israelis so that would include The Druze who are a Muslim sect and who do get called up to the IDF.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
Ross @ 10:22 – would your “thousands” refer to casualties before or after the Israeli invasion? The 2006 and on-going civil war between Fatah and Hamas has resulted in thousands of Palestinian casualties, hundreds of deaths, including women and children, and a great deal of property destruction without any Jewish involvement. Don’t be a selective moralist – it reads like you work for the UN.
Jew-haters conveniently ignore the fact Arab Palestinians have been killing each other vigorously for at least 60 years. Other Arab tribes have been happily killing Palestinians for as long, and vice versa. This has been without Jewish involvement either (cue loony conspiracy theorists).
Arabs have an established history of slaughtering rivals, especially other Arabs. Islam is the veneer that occasionally binds them together. Sometimes they stop long killing each other long enough to kill someone else. Mostly the Jews, but occasionally Armenians, Baluchis, Kurds, Phalangists, Americans, European nationals and minority Christian groups.
There is no history of Jews murdering each other in such numbers or with such ferocity in the past 2,000 years. Why is that? Maybe Jews have better air conditioning that stops them going mad in the heat?
Experiencing “untold death” is an every day event for Palestinians. Violence is endemic in their culture, society and religion. This is evident when hundreds of Palestinians strap on explosives and try to kill Jews in suicide attacks in the name of God, freedom, hatred, stupidity, or whatever bullshit reason, and are viewed as heroes and martyrs and children are encouraged to emulate.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
big bruv, can you add those idle Wanganui horis to that list.
Oh, and these whining bloody Nga Tahu, otherwise known as a whiter shade of pale iwi.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Hori
Only if the lazy sods have declared war on NZ or our mates, failing that why on earth would I not want to take their dole and DPB money from them?
January 16th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
It’s an act of racism inspired by the current war. Both sides are correct – it’s about war and racism. This is a relatively inane point.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:22 pm
Anyone who criticises Israel is still a “Jew-hater” I see.
What hope is there for the middle east when the battle-lines are drawn so bitterly that people can’t even have a civilised discussion about it HERE?
January 16th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Let me be exact. It’s about THE WAR IN GAZA not every war of history. Clear? The cafe owner has no compulsion for your definiton of consistency. It’s unrealistic to expect he does, since that would mean you were capable of controlling the minds of all the population. Do try to stay realistic.
Seemed we’ve reached pedantic saturation in this argument.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:29 pm
both sides are not correct. It’d be like saying that a French cafe owner in London refusing to serve Germans until Hitler’s Army withdrew from Paris was about racism.
Give it up. Let the racist dog lie sleeping.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:36 pm
Three thoughts:
1. The assumption that he is secretly motivated by racism, rather than the non-racist reasons he expressed (protesting the actions of the state of Israel)… is a racist or creedist assumption.
2. If the woman is now a Kiwi citizen and has no vote in Israel, it is unfair to make her the target of a boycott aimed at Israel’s actions. The cafe owners should have inquired, “Are you an Israeli citizen with a vote there?” rather than, “Where are you from?”
3. The cafe owners’ boycott is illegal. It also seems unpopular with the locals. On the news, many of them seemed to be making the same racist/creedist assumption that the cafe owners were secretly motivated by racism rather than the reasons they gave out loud. This little act of protest could destroy their business.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
goodgod I meant correct only insofar as it’s about both racism and war.
Any way you slice it he denied service to a person based on race/ethnicity/religion (depending how you look at this maybe a general discrimination as opposed to racism label fits better – same idea though holds). This is racism/discrimination.
You are right in asserting though that clearly this incident is inspired by the current war – that much is obvious. But what’s your point? Discrimination is OK when you justify it with a current event? There are always reasons behind discrimination but those reasons don’t justify or make acceptable the act of discrimination. (IMHO
Edit: I would like to add that I wouldn’t go so far as to call this guy a “racist.” Two reasons: 1. I know nothing about him. 2. The use of such a label is fairly subjective and pointless. I think we should only be talking about, especially in this case, racist behaviour.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Arse-end little south island provincial towns seem to be good places to look for racism and ugly ways of thinking. A while ago TVNZ ran a piece on a whole bunch of people in Nelson who don’t like “the monkeys” ( = Asians) and like bully or intimidate foreign students and tourists wherever possible. Charming!
January 16th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Zappa said “Judaism is both a race and a religion”. So in your mind all people born to Jewish parents must believe in the same imaginary friends as their parents.
Between the last two census (or is that censi) 1000 people a week gained the intelligence and confidence to declare that they had no religion. Forcing people in to religion based on their genetic make up is a horrible idea.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Ryan.” The cafe owners’ boycott is illegal. It also seems unpopular with the locals”
From the Otago Daily Times. An entire 39 people have an opinion (whatever an ‘Iraelis’ is)
“Do you think the cafe owners are right to refuse serving Iraelis?”
Fri, 16 Jan 2009
Yes
41% (16 votes)
No
59% (23 votes)
Total votes: 39
January 16th, 2009 at 12:44 pm
Ryan: on point numero due: that might have been the case if he used a process model to determine whether to kick the woman out or not!
these things are emotion driven though aren’t they.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Patrick – yeah but ODT readers probably remember fondly the “good old days” when Chinese gold miners had to pay a poll tax
January 16th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
The Jews as a race arguement is like the animals as species or varients debate. It depends on your definition and ultimately doesn’t have much agency.
There are some interesting things with Jewish genetic markers however due to their history of close community.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Locals walking past the cafe, as on the telly vox pop, all said they would not be patronising it in future. The laws of economics will likely speak louder than the laws of the land.
January 16th, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Patrick,
That’s more approval than I thought. It’s almost as if I shouldn’t get my impressions from three vox pops on the 10.30pm news.
Fishe,
Yes, poorly executed, but not racist.
January 16th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
Yes well I suppose the question will be can he survive on selling only 16 kebabs a day?
January 16th, 2009 at 1:17 pm
Patrick, maybe the shop is just a front of money laundering.
JOKE
Oh wait, do turkish kebab shops have that stigma in NZ?
January 16th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Or that the U.S roundup of 120,000 Japanese during WWII (2/3 of which were U.S. Citizens) was racist!
January 16th, 2009 at 1:25 pm
I emailed John Minto and got a reply, I told him if he was aware of apartheid happening in New Zealand, and a cafe owner wont serve two Israeli woman, he wrote back and said when there is hundreds of people dying in Gaza, he couldn’t care less about two Israeli woman who cant get a cup of coffee.
So much for this guy being about peace and justice for all, what a hypocrite, I also see he is protesting a Chess competition because of an Israeli player, this shouldn’t be allowed in New Zealand, how anyone can get away with not serving someone because of the country that they are from is repulsive, I would just like to know where are all the activists supporting these woman????
January 16th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Isn’t this all a bit of a over-reaction, sure it was a ham fisted reaction to Israel’s actions in Gaza & deserved a telling off, but I’m not sure that it deserves quite the attention it’s receiving, nor indeed is that attention productive.
There are a few points.
Israel is no longer receiving popular support in Turkey, on of it’s oldest & closest allies, from the PM of Turkey down to a Kebab dealer in Invercargill, this is not good news for Israel & should be cause for concern.
It was not targetted at Jews specifically, but Israel as a country, there is a difference & whilst I empathise with Jews sensitivity to anti-semitism, over-reacting like this is counter-productive ( yes I know that letting things go was partially responsible for what happened in Germany, but there is a desire to avoid any anti-semitism, when the real target should be working for global religious consensus to stamp out anti-semitism, something I thought Pope John Paul II was great at, but which the current Pope is retreating from ).
Israel’s PM deliberately said he controlled the US President, combined with Turkey’s leadership criticising Israel, one wonders will Israel have any friends left in 5 years, to me that is the single biggest issue facing Israel & makes the issues with Iran/Palestinians fade totally into insignificance, somehow Israel need to get more global support not less, this current direction is really really not good.
January 16th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Certainly. Just as, I’m sure, there were people who boycotted Three/C4 (and their advertisers) after the ‘Bloody Mary’ episode of South Park. I’ll support anyone’s freedom to be an ignorant, simple-minded arse-hat. But I assert my equal freedom not to associate with them, or contribute to their purse, as far as I can.
You can’t legislate against stupidity and ill-informed bigotry; but I prefer not to enrich it with my hard-earned cash.
But here’s a question for Tekinkaya. In my opinion, most of the Middle East has an appalling record when it comes to civil, political and free speech rights, tolerance of religious and political dissent, or the equal treatment of women. How would he feel if he was held personally responsible, and refused service by me and people who share my views?
Not much, I suspect.
January 16th, 2009 at 1:35 pm
My boycott is against the UN – for not preventing this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTGbP55HGi8
January 16th, 2009 at 2:03 pm
Nigel,
“sure it was a ham fisted reaction to Israel’s actions in Gaza”
Poor choice of words, when discussing a dispute between a Muslim and an Israeli (presumably Jewish, possibly kosher)!!! (insert smiley emoticon here)
January 16th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
The tennis is ruling right this second.
January 16th, 2009 at 2:36 pm
“# Redbaiter (4911) 2 7 Says:
January 16th, 2009 at 9:43 am
“What the turkish gentleman has done,is against the law in NZ and is abhorent.”
It may well be abhorent, but to me, its not as abhorent as your fucken “law”. Fascist.”
So saws that are designed to stop racist descrimination are now fascist? Apprently the laws desgined to enforce rascist descrimination are what redbaiter wants.
How does that look again? Ah yes Kristallnacht. National SOCIALISM makes its comeback. You go Gauleiter. The further the better. And I don’t think its maws law, I suspect you will find its actually New Zealand law.
January 16th, 2009 at 2:38 pm
Why are people so upset about Palestinians dying? Their political leaders, their religious leaders, their kids TV shows and fighters all keep telling the entire world that they “worship death like you (infidels) worship life”. Talk about mixed messages.
Further to the quote above – you are right. Noone complained about the late King Hussein of Jordan carpet bombing refugee camps and slaughtering civilians when they tried to overthrow him. No one complained about the large numbers of Palestinians who got slaughtered by the Kuwaitis after the US kicked Saddam Hussein out of Kuwait and the locals got their revenge on the Palestinians who had backed the wrong horse. It is only when some die at the hands of Israel during that anyone gives a shit.
January 16th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
I’m sure most people wouldn’t give a fuck if Minto walked into a cafe (or a service station or a bank or the checkout line at a supermarket), only to be told, “I don’t serve your sort in here, pinko tool.” Doesn’t make it right, though.
January 16th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
History will judge JoHn Minto as a true Kiwi patriot. How he selflessly foregoes his summer holidays to alert us to the great Zionist fraud and jihad inflicted on the Palestinean people who just want to live in peace. And we can rely on John, as a professional teacher (history I think), to impart his knowledge to his students free from all bias (just skirt quickly around the bit about Israel being invaded by four countries one day after the declaration of the Jewish state).
But can we rely on Jewish teachers to tell the story with the same degree of impartiality? I think not and fact we owe it to our children and their children and their children’s children to rid New Zealand from this cancer (much like Helen wanted to do with Don Brash). So John, your next move should be to agitate to have all Jewish teachers banned from the profession much like from the Cafe in Invercargill. But how will we know if they are Jewish? Quite simple really, we can require them to wear little ‘Star of David’ insigna on their clothes. Kills lotsa birds that and it will save Cafe owners the embarrassment of having to evesdrop conversations.
We can sell it to the Jews on the basis that it is for their own protection and in fact we could turn it into quite a little money spinner by issuing it in conjunction with some sort of internal passport (at say $1,000 a throw) which would have to be produced on demand with a fine for not carrying it (first offence) and deportation to the Chatham Islands or Morewa or anywhere but next door for a second offence. Deportaton would automatically involve forfeiture of property.
Is it a problem that we have a Jewish Prime Minister? Could be but then again he claims to have foresaken the faith and now lives by christian principles alone. Then again, he sends his son to King’s College and we all know the Anglicans long ago sold out to Doug Myers and their historic chapel is really a synagogue with circumcision an optional extra in the Cottage hospital performed by prefects.
So John Minto we may have a problem there but you and your mate Keith Locke and good old Ashraf Choudhary are up to it so go to it and may the force go with you.
John Minto … protester, teacher, man of action, man of ‘integrity’ man of ………..
January 16th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
Now look here Ross – you’re not being fair on John Minto. He’s a very busy man ‘cos he’s got THREE protests organised this weekend and another on Tuesday, and it’s SUCH hard work making sure that the press releases go out, making sure tha the TV cameras are there, making sure ……
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10552200
Global Peace and Justice? I don’t think so!
January 16th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
I emailed John Minto and got a reply, I told him if he was aware of apartheid happening in New Zealand, and a cafe owner wont serve two Israeli woman, he wrote back and said when there is hundreds of people dying in Gaza, he couldn’t care less about two Israeli woman who cant get a cup of coffee.
Great work Gopolk
We all knew Minto was a hypocritical cunt but you have the smoking gun
Why did he care so much about apartheid in South Africa when not hundreds (but hundreds of thousands of people) were dying in Angola,Mozambique, Iran/Iraq, Afghanistan, Cambodia and many other places around the world in the late 70’s and through the 80’s?
January 16th, 2009 at 3:29 pm
I thought Inventory2 was just being humourous when he talked about Minto’s three protests this weekend. But on the Nat. Business Review site I read the following:
Rakon headquarters to be site of anti-Israel protest
Opponents of Israel’s military actions in Gaza have picked a new protest target: one of New Zealand’s most successful technology companies.
A protest march against Rakon is scheduled to begin at 3pm tomorrow and will travel from outside Sylvia Park to Rakon’s Mt Wellington head office.
The march will involve members of a number of groups including Global Peace and Justice Auckland and Citizens Against Privatisation.
Hell’s teeth! Look at the composition of the protesters. What the hell is an anti-privatisation group doing protesting about the Gaza war? I guess it shows Minto and his mates are just a West-hating mixture of communist, anarchist, socialist, and schizophrenic ratbags.
A whiff of grapeshot would be Napoleon’s answer, and he grew out of a revolution. Or will the country quieten down when Minto goes back to schoolteaching for the year?
January 16th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Ross, come on , NZ has had three PMs born Jewish, so it is hardly a fact that any kiwis go out of their way to give Jews a hard time in NZ.
Ratbiter, racism in the SI. the only place that some idiot said a word to my wife
about having a Maori husband was in Christchurch.
Of course he was a two headed, four armed cantab who did not know any better.
January 16th, 2009 at 3:42 pm
“I suspect you will find its actually New Zealand law.”
I don’t give a fuck whose law it is, the real point is that the ABSENCE OF LAWS to control thought and speech is what makes a free country different to a fascist country.
You are free to make your choice, as I am free to make mine, and I know without a shred of doubt that I will never ever support such fascist organisations as the office of the Race Relations Commissioner, any processes they are involved in and definitely not any fucken re-education programs they promote. Straight out of Chairman Mao’s Little red Book.
January 16th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
Jack5 said “I thought Inventory2 was just being humourous when he talked about Minto’s three protests this weekend. But on the Nat. Business Review site I read the following:”
I was being humorous (or piss-taking) when I suggested to Ross that he shouldn’t be so hard on Minto. Minto has obviously been out of the limelight for too long; he’s had another taste of being the left-leaning media’s darling again, and the addiction starts all over again. Rather like Jesse Ryder really
January 16th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
Grumpy: that was a nasty bit of racism your wife experienced in Christchurch. She deserves an apology from those of us who lived there at the time.
From my years in Christchurch I found there was more snobbery (what school did you go to?) than racism, and what there was of the latter was quite strange. For example, the local leader (if he’s still in charge) of the skinheads/national front type organisation was part-Maori. Perhaps he was one of those Kai Tahu do you think?
He was actually quite entertaining to watch in occasional interviews on the local regional TV station. He would be very plausible and polite, apparently rational, almost urbane. Then usually at some stage he would snap with a wild gleam in his eyes and declare a “solution” to some problem on the lines that somebody should be shot.
January 16th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
Interesting reaction from Minto Craig. Clearly its not the principle he cares about but rather who it is being applied to.
An armband for Mr Minto someone.
January 16th, 2009 at 3:57 pm
Of course you don’t give a fuck whos law it is as long as you get to hate and descriminate at will its all good. And shit its only Jews after all.
Go break some windows why don’t you. Don’t forget to goosestep while our out there hero.
Bad news, we’ve seen your kind before and we’re not going to let you do it again.
January 16th, 2009 at 3:58 pm
Jack5 @ 3:50
“He would be very plausible and polite, apparently rational, almost urbane. Then usually at some stage he would snap with a wild gleam in his eyes and declare a “solution” to some problem on the lines that somebody should be shot.”
Jack5 @ 3.29
“I guess it shows Minto and his mates are just a West-hating mixture of communist, anarchist, socialist, and schizophrenic ratbags.
A whiff of grapeshot would be Napoleon’s answer, and he grew out of a revolution.”
Is that a wild gleam in your eye, or are you just … you know … confused?
January 16th, 2009 at 4:04 pm
I recall Napoleon also stuck a crown on his own head and became the establishment. Not really seeing the point here.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:08 pm
“Bad news, we’ve seen your kind before”
Who is “we”. You and the rest of the commies? AG, Ratbiter and everyone else who thinks allowing the government to shape thought and speech is a good idea? You forget what you fought for you knee jerking back to front fuckwit. You’re supporting here the very ideology you opposed when you joined up for WWII.
You’re free to personally despise this guy to any extent you want, but once you institute laws that punish people for their thoughts and their speech, then you may as well have not even bothered fighting Hitler, and to call people who oppose your fascist ideas Hitler supporters demonstrates a degree of fucked up thinking that is about as cross wired as you can get. If you support such entities as The Race Relations Commission, and their attacks on free speech, you’re the fucken Nazi you blind babbling dipshit. Go have your fucken afternoon nap while you play Mahler on the Gramophone.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
AG asks of me: Is that a wild gleam in your eye, or are you just … you know … confused?
The “National Front” bloke was usually advocating shooting someone like the Prime Minister (after a trial, not by assassination I must add in his defence). The point was his usual like-everyone-else persona collapsed at that point and he lapsed into extremism.That’s not on in a democracy.
But when it comes to folk like Minto’s anarchists who at bottom want to overthrow democracy, I can see why Napoleon had no patience, and as an artilleryman thought immediately of canister or grapeshot with unruly mobs who can threaten a state.
I didn’t say Minto should be shelled, or water-cannoned, or tear-gassed, but admit he makes me judge the little Corsican a little less harshly.
What’s your answer to Minto AG, or do I guess rightly that you are for him?
January 16th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
My point, dear Murray, is that Jack5 cites Napoleon’s predilection for the violent suppression of dissent in what can only described as an approving manner … only to some 21 minutes later trash Kyle Chapman (I assume) for his quite mad advocacy of violence as a solution. This appears contradictory.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:11 pm
For those who mistakenly (and racistly) think that every Jewish person in the world is a blind supporter of Israel no matter what she does:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2009/01/jewish-activist.html
January 16th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
“I emailed John Minto and got a reply,”
Hang on – how did he did that without using his Israeli designed Computer chip, software and Internet applications?
January 16th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
“What’s your answer to Minto AG, or do I guess rightly that you are for him?”
Errr … why is any “answer” needed at all? You really think John Minto poses an immediate and grave threat to the order and stability of NZ society? This is your response to protest and dissent by (at most) some dozens of people standing around with banners and megaphones? Good lord, how you must tremble when confronted with (gasp!) a T-Shirt saying (oh, I don’t know) “Screw the Government”
I say let him protest away, if it makes him feel better. If he makes you that angry, just write frenetic, over-the-top posts on a blog site. Oh wait … you’re good.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:26 pm
” you’re the fucken Nazi you blind babbling dipshit. Go have your fucken afternoon nap while you play Mahler on the Gramophone.”
Dear oh dear, Reddy. You do know, of course, that Gustav Mahler was regarded as a “degenerate” by the Nazis, who banned his music? I suspect you mean “Wagner”.
Also, if you knew anything of Mahler’s music, you’d know it is virtually impossible to “nap” to it. But maybe you could have a nice cup of tea and settle yourself down a bit?
January 16th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
You’d of course be the expert on what the Nazis liked.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
So you think Minto’s antics are harmless my dear AG (as you probably address yourself)?
You don’t think he is helping to whip up feeling against Jewish people in New Zealand because of a war on the other side of the world? You think it’s okay for him to harass an export company because of what he believes are the uses of some of its products? To harass the consulate of a friendly country? To tie up the resources of our police.
Minto has access to Fairfax media. He can set up web site, print pamphlets. The only reason he protests in the streets is because the leftist MSM will then carry his message.
As for blog posts, give me honest frenetic over pompous left any day.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
AG –
from the Mahler/nap reference, one can only presume he is thinking of the Adagietto of Symphony no.5.
from the Nazi reference, one can only presume he has Mahler confused with Wagner.
PS: Baiter – it’s widely known that Wagner’s music was adored by Hitler & played over the PAs at Nazi rallies. It’s also widely known that Wagner’s personal views of the Jews made Hitler look like a weak, moderate little pussy in the anti-semitism game. Take it easy mein fuhrer.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Reddy:
“You’d of course be the expert on what the Nazis liked.”
Don’t need to be an expert to know that the Nazis generally disapproved of all forms of post-romantic innovation in the arts, particularly when written by a Jewish composer. It’s called “knowing history”. Try it sometime – you’d come across as less of an arse.
Jack5:
“To die up the resources of our police”
Freudian slip there, me thinks.
Ratty:
I suspect Reddy wouldn’t know his adagietto from his elbow!
January 16th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
“Take it easy mein fuhrer.”
Hitler was the leader of the National Socialist Worker’s Party. He’s your fucken Fuhrer, and like every such poisonous socialist scumbag, he became a totalitarian murderer as soon as he was able. I’m for small weak government. You’re the big government worshipper. You’re much closer to Nazism than anyone else, in that you too are a socialist who seeks totalitarianism, and if history is any thing to go by, like Adolf, you will be murdering killing jailing and maiming too as soon as you have the political power that you obsess over. Unprincipled amoral creep.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Oh, well, yes. When you put it so clearly and calmly, I do see your point. Ratty is a socialist nazi who lusts after murdering people .
And there I was, thinking he was just a nice guy who likes to spend the odd evening listening to klezma music at the botanical gardens. It’s always the ones you least suspect … thanks for the heads up, Reddy.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
JOKES, baiter. I could be blind, deaf and dumb and your political colouration would still be obvious.
But I reckon you could probably do a great job of a Hitler-style, rabble-rousing stand-up angry speech denouncing the lefties that need to be eradicated because they are causing all of this country’s problems
January 16th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
“And there I was, thinking he was just a nice guy who likes to spend the odd evening listening to klezma music at the botanical gardens.”
Well, since when have you two Klark sycophants ever had a clue about what is really going down? The point is his enthusiasm and willingness to label others as Nazis when due to ideology and the lessons of history no leftist should ever dare make that allegation. Well, no leftist with a brain that is, but then I realize such are as easy to find as rocking horse shit.
“I could be blind, deaf and dumb and your political colouration would still be obvious.”
You wouldn’t have a clue. With you’re blinkered politcal perspectives, you’d have no way of ever truly understanding any political view outside the sick parameters of socialism, as your comments here always prove so clearly.
January 16th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
And he’s right, AG. How am I ever supposed to round up and exterminate all of Wellington’s Jew-lovers if I don’t first spend a bit of time mingling with them and memorising their faces?
I bet you never thought of that , eh? EH? EH? Dumb leftie dumbf*ck…
January 16th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
WHO CARES ABOUT GAZA MOST DONT IN NZ BUT, fuck im worried about being one of the 7% unemployed, i dont give a rats arse about gaza , a rabbit warren full of rag heads???MOST ARE UNDER 17, shit do they fire rockets and BONK day and night fuck THINKi mean THINK 4 Wifes and 6 kids PER WIFE, ITS A RAT WARREN,WHEN do these fuckers find time to fight or launch rockets
January 16th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
Easy on, Ratty. I only have rockinghorse shit between my ears, you know. Makes it tricky to do that thinking stuff, like what Reddy does so good.
But what if everyone else in the crowd was there with the same intentions as you? Did you clear your actions with commie-central high command? Could get messy, otherwise.
January 16th, 2009 at 5:06 pm
I was going to ask when will you dumb fucks wake up to the fact that what you think is smart (and FUNNY [gawd's sake])only comes across to non-leftists as smug arrogant sneering, but then I realized I already knew the answer. Never.
January 16th, 2009 at 5:13 pm
Just what is it that makes you believe I give a flying f*ck about what you or your compadres think about me? Seriously?
January 16th, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Is Minto a MALE teacher how did this male avoid been classed as a kiddie fiddler???? opps does minto chase after male B*Ms, who knows minto might think he loves laurance of arabland, and male companionship, WHO KNOWS as a confused poster,ITS LEGAL but messy and i think painfull
January 16th, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Wow, the ad hominem attacks have really spiralled out of control here.
Let’s take a step back.
Despite Rebaiter’s discourteous style, he has a point. You can dislike this guy all you wish. You can write about him in the papers, villify him on television, publish blogs about him and boycott his shop.
But you can’t silence him.
As Redbaiter points out, it’s not the state’s place to tell people what they can and can’t say or think.
Yes, it’s against the law, but the law is wrong and we all know it.
Now, I don’t support this turkish guy at all. I support Israel 100%. But I would never, ever, presume to silence him with the power of government authority. That way lies totalitarianism.
January 16th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
On further reflection, I think AG at 3.58 equates a National Front leader (whom he assumes is one Kyle Chapman) with Napoleon.
My dear AG (as I’m sure you address yourself), you cannot surely believe the rantings of a National Front person are on the same footing as a statement by Napoleon. You rank the minor NZ reactionary’s statement as equivalent to that of a man, admittedly at one time a dictator, who introduced legal systems and forged nations. He was a stalwart of the West, which may well mean you think ill of him.
It is nonsense to say a person cannot rationally cite Napoleon’s last-resort method of dealing with a mob and at the same time reject a National Front suggestion that democratically elected politicians be shot.
Fall on your placard pole!
The fact is Minto is a rabble leader. He is not equivalent to a democratically elected politician. Minto will never get into Parliament except on the Melon Green list.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Napoleon also sought hearts and minds by telling people he was freeing them from effective slavery under the old aristocracy.
Unfortunately, he then…. declared himself Emperor of France.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
“Now, I don’t support this turkish guy at all. I support Israel 100%. But I would never, ever, presume to silence him with the power of government authority. That way lies totalitarianism.”
Thank you Christopher. Good post. Well put, and I’m in full agreement.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
Christopher –
I think the problem is that some of us see “the law” as a common-sense set of rules designed merely to stop people from being utter bastards to each other, as some people are apt to to do given the way we live in this small, close-knit, inter-dependent sort of society we have.
Inevitably this kind of thinking is irreconcilable with the views of self-centred people like Redbaiter who think it’s all about THEM and THEIR RIGHTS – and who convince themselves that any and all regulation and rule in society represents dark gummint forces that are conspiring to keep them down and make their lives a misery.
While I have much sympathy for those who live with this kind of paranoia, Baiter has fully exhausted his stocks of my goodwill by consistently being such a rude bastard to anyone who dares cross his path!
January 16th, 2009 at 6:18 pm
“Just what is it that makes you believe I give a flying f*ck about what you or your compadres think about me? Seriously?”
Not the point. Just wanted you to know you’re not at all as funny as you imagine yourself. You’re smug, arrogant superior and sneering. So now that you know that, perhaps you’ll spare me the pain of any more feeble and misguided attempts at humour.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
“Baiter has fully exhausted his stocks of my goodwill”
Oh gawd, someone run a warm bath while I bare my wrists and ready the razor blades. What kind of fuckwit accuses me of rudeness at the same time as he attempts (in his apparent blithering ignorance of what I stand for) to hang a similarity with Hitler on me? Only a brain damaged leftist could be so guilty of such arrant hypocrisy without apparent awareness.
January 16th, 2009 at 6:35 pm
Yooo whot?
You extol personal freedom, individual property rights, less taxation, and less government. Am I wrong?
Like I said, It’s all about ME and MY RIGHTS. Anyone who tries to impose laws on society must be doing it against the will of the individual, and they must be resisted. Sound familiar?
January 16th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
No Ratty….its about the individual rights of all of us….thats implied in Reds argument. You know nothing of true rights and so appear a cock when Red tears you a new one….
As a seeming socialist you are arguing for a system of privilege….some having more “rights” than others….funded at the expense of the others…
“Like I said, It’s all about ME and MY RIGHTS. Anyone who tries to impose laws on society must be doing it against the will of the individual, and they must be resisted. Sound familiar?”
“Society” doesn’t exist…its an abstration from the fact they human are individuals…..with individual rights….but the same rights.
January 16th, 2009 at 7:15 pm
What would those privileges be? I’m fascinated. First I’ve heard of them!
January 16th, 2009 at 7:52 pm
After reading some of these comments i have images of National Socialists marching to Prokofiev burned into my mind, thanks.
January 16th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
sorry posters im a bit bitter tonight, bored with the subject
January 17th, 2009 at 12:46 am
At Zaytoun, an Eastern neighbourhood of Gaza City, the Red Cross ambulances could only rush to the scene of a massacre after several hours, under the coordination of the Israeli military summit. When they finally got there, they picked up 17 corpses and 10 injured, all belonging to the Al Samouni family. A perfect execution: in the tiny bodies of the children it was possible to notice bullet holes rather than wounds caused by shrapnel.
Another reason why that man evicted those Israelis from his cafe. Good on him.
January 17th, 2009 at 6:08 am
Mark Regev, the spokesman for Israeli Prime Minister Olmert agrees that although others did fire a total of 15 rockets during the recent Gaza ceasefire prior to Nov. 4th, with only one rocket fired in October no rockets were fired by Hamas during the ceasefire and Yuval Stenitz Likud member of the Israeli Knesset and the chairman of the Knesset’s Foreign Affairs & Defense Committee, admitted that Israel had been planning an attack on the people of Gaza for at least eight or nine months.
January 17th, 2009 at 6:17 am
Qassam Rockets and how they make them.
January 17th, 2009 at 6:27 am
Ratbiter says:
“Christopher -
I think the problem is that some of us see “the law” as a common-sense set of rules designed merely to stop people from being utter bastards to each other, as some people are apt to to do given the way we live in this small, close-knit, inter-dependent sort of society we have.
Inevitably this kind of thinking is irreconcilable with the views of self-centred people like Redbaiter who think it’s all about THEM and THEIR RIGHTS – and who convince themselves that any and all regulation and rule in society represents dark gummint forces that are conspiring to keep them down and make their lives a misery.
While I have much sympathy for those who live with this kind of paranoia, Baiter has fully exhausted his stocks of my goodwill by consistently being such a rude bastard to anyone who dares cross his path!”
Ratbiter your position is, respectfully, naive.
Firstly the idea that the law is to stop people from being “bastards” to one another is inprecise. The function of the law is to protect certain personal rights on which democratic society is based on and could not function without: The right to freedom of speech, the right to own property, and the right to freedoms of life and liberty.
Note that none of the above prevent someone from being a “bastard” (indeed freedom of speech often enables it); simply that the said bastard is not allowed to damage you (or your property – the fruits of your hard work). This protection extends to (and indeed was originally designed as) a protection from the government. In ages prior to the English bill of rights, it was not uncommon for the state to confiscate land or other property from its people without compensation. Surely, you will argue, that this happened a long time ago and that we as a people have evolved since then. Post WW1, Germany was supposed to be a modern developed country. This did not stop the Nazis from gaining power and turing it into an oppressive police state, but it is very enlightening to observe how they proceeded to do so. When the Nazi’s began attacking the Jews, they first attacked their property – stripping them of their livelyhood and means to resist before attacking their liberty and finally their lives. Now the truth is, while not every politician is an Adolf Hitler, someone like him could pop up again at any time, especially in hard economic conditions, where people become desperate for some solution. The only defense against such a person is to rigidly enforce these fundimental rights and restrict the power of the government.
So does this mean that the shop owner “gets away” with discrimination? No. It just means the people rather than the state will be the means of his censorship. Because of the publicisation of the issue, the shopkeeper will almost certainly lose customers and will thus suffer financial penalty. I note that this has an advantage over a government imposed fine in that he will actually be forced to pay it.
He-Man writes:
“At Zaytoun, an Eastern neighbourhood of Gaza City, the Red Cross ambulances could only rush to the scene of a massacre after several hours, under the coordination of the Israeli military summit. When they finally got there, they picked up 17 corpses and 10 injured, all belonging to the Al Samouni family. A perfect execution: in the tiny bodies of the children it was possible to notice bullet holes rather than wounds caused by shrapnel.
Another reason why that man evicted those Israelis from his cafe. Good on him.”
One could question the veracity of He-man’s emotive (and reference-less) note about a supposed execution style massacre, however his entire post is irrelevant: he calls the evicted customers Israelis and tries to use this as a defense for the shopkeeper’s actions, when if he bothered to read the opening post, he would know that one was a NZ citizen (ie not an Israeli)
I also note the extremely bitter tone He-man takes. Maybe he’s just upset with jews because John Key forced him into a name change and took away the keys to the batcave?
January 17th, 2009 at 8:52 am
Cha, thanks for the link on how the terrorists make rockets, I remain unsure why you’ve provided it however if you have an interest in military projectiles the MA825A1 is proving far more effective
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/29/64106413_63a7792842.jpg
don’t you think?
January 17th, 2009 at 10:42 am
#Patrick Starr,here I’ve noted that in my opinion Gaza 09, thanks Reid, has absolutely nothing to do with Hamas rocket attacks and everything to do with Israeli politics and I’ve tried to make the point that Qassam Rockets are only a few steps ahead of rocks and slingshots. Meanwhile the IDF uses 21st century munitions systems like the MA825A1 and yet, short of exterminating the Gazans, they really are on a hiding to nothing. Israel will continue to punish the Palestinians with their 21st century weapons and when they withdraw all they’ll have accomplished is a short respite from the close border attacks with the smart money going on another round of the same shit within the year.
IMO Patrick Starr, Israel has a boil on its arse of its own making and after 60 or so years of trying to lance it it’s still there and getting worse by the day. Rocks and slingshots, Qassam Rockets and all the military might of the IDFs 21st century munitions, your cheer leading for the Israelis and my opposition to Israeli sledge hammer v nut actions in Gaza aint gonna solve the problem.
January 17th, 2009 at 11:30 am
Yes you’re exactly correct, cha. Let’s have a round-up:
Fact one: rocket attacks still continue.
Fact two: even if all the tunnels are shut down, it’s impossible to close down all alternative routes since all you need is basic supplies like sugar.
Fact three: the IDF’s actions might reduce rocket attacks temporarily but they’ve just given every Gazan a massive incentive to continue them by inflaming a hatred that will burn even hotter than it did before.
Fact four: decapitation actions like Gaza 09 never close down grass-roots organisations like Hamas, they only ever work on organisations like Fatah and the Baath party that don’t have popular support (Fatah is seen by Gazans as corrupt, ineffective and passe; Hamas is seen by Gazans as helping the people. Whether or not you agree that that is as it should be, the fact is, the only opinions that matter is that of the average Gazan and that is how they think.)
Fact five: All of this is so elementary it is covered in politics 101 papers and understood even by young 18 year-olds. You cannot seriously therefore suggest that the IDF, Mossad and the Israeli govt didn’t understand this before they started.
Fact 6: There is an Israeli election on Feb (15?) and actions such as Gaza 09 help Israeli politicians to get votes by looking tough
Fact 7: Immediately Hamas was elected in 2005, the US put up a Quartet Agreement containing a take-it-or-leave-it-immediate-response-required proposition.
Fact 8: In international negotiations, this is precisely what you do if you want to give yourself a plausible-deniability reason to take further action – “we tried, and they said no.”
Fact 9: Israel then proceeded to implement incremental supply restrictions and border restrictions. After several years of gradual incrementation which had not yet resulted in Gazans turning against Hamas, it launched a bombardment then an invasion.
Fact 10: Gaza 09, coming just prior to Obama’s inauguration, severely restricts Obama’s options in dealing with ME peace issues. Obama curiously (to some), by his consistent “no comment” actions, has given no indication he is concerned about this.
Fact 11: Overall, Gaza 09 has not given Israel increased security but to the contrary, has merely worsened relations with all surrounding nations and increased the chance of such terrible things as suicide bombings amongst its civilian population.
Fact 12: Gaza 09 is exactly in line with previous neo-con attack designs and precisely in accordance with their ideological objectives.
January 17th, 2009 at 1:20 pm
#reid
And perhaps an exercise in poking the Sunni Palestinians with a large stick in an attempt to provoke other regional players?.
January 17th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
Israel is not responsible for the future actions of the Gazans or Hamas, the Palestinians are.
Israel are entitled to defend themselves and take precautions to protect their citizens.
When they are attacked, rather than sit around pondering the emotional well being of the Palestinians, the appropriate response is to punish and remove the threat of further attacks. They cannot rely on the toothless UN to protect them.
The Gazans can take from this, either, attacking Israel is good because they are weakening them economically, building international public support, and are now closer to their goal of destroying Israel at an acceptable cost of 1000 lives and continued poverty. Or that attacking Israel will cause them to retaliate, causing suffering for Palestinians, and if a prosperous and peaceful future is desired for Palestinians they should cease violent aggression and get on with building their lives.
You seem to ascribe the intellectual and emotional capacity of animals to the Palestinians. They are perfectly capable of rationalizing events and making constructive decisions. Their current situation is the deliberate result of their past decisions and leadership.
Please apply the same standards of awareness to the Palestinians that you do to Israel.
January 17th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Look absolutely cha. The geostrategic reasons behind the entire US/Israeli strategy vis-a-vis Hamas are clearly connected to the support Hamas enjoys from Iran. US/Israel wants to take out Iran and the Hamas strategy is a mere stepping-stone in this broader objective. Now let me make this absolutely clear. It is a fact that Iran is an active player in supporting terrorist organisations and it is also a fact that Iran is a threat to Israel. These are very good reasons to take these connections very seriously indeed and I for one have never argued they should not be. All of my objections have been focused on the tactics used, since I believe they are ultimately, counter-productive, in that they bring about the exact opposite of what you want to achieve.
Israel’s two biggest regional security threats are or were Iraq and Iran.
Since day one of the first Bush 43 election which bought the neo-cons to absolute power within the Executive Branch, we have seen US foreign policies that mirrored precisely the objectives and strategies outlined in the PNAC documents. If one was to argue this is just a mere coincidence then it’s a hell of a coincidence.
In respect of the ME the neo-cons’ perspectives exactly mirror those of Likud and this in my view is why the Israeli govt has shown absolutely no resistance whatsoever to the proposed US strategies excepting in one significant case – the war in Lebanon.
The result is what we see today: an absolute mess. People who don’t understand the deep details of PNAC, neo-con, Likud ideology do not have the information necessary to connect these dots and what surprises me somewhat is that some people put such dots into the conspiracy theory category when it’s nothing of the sort. PNAC, neo-con and Likud ideology is outlined in official US and Israeli govt and conservative think-tank documents all over the web. Last time I looked, such organisations weren’t considered to be by most people, fertile sources of “conspiracy theories.”
One of the neo-cons’ modus operandis is propaganda. They whip up fervour before they attack. We saw this in the lead-up to Iraq where they drew connections between Saddam and WMD and Saddam and al-Qa’ida that have subsequently proven not to be there. It is now becoming obvious as information comes out as to what happened inside the Administration during that period, that those connections weren’t there at the time either and that the neo-cons such as Card, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Libby, Rumsfeld, Feith and others, actively “cherry-picked” the intelligence to support their story.
What I’m suspicious of but which remain open-minded upon, is that they’re doing the same thing with Iran. For years now the western media has been fed information which paints a one-dimensional picture of Iran as being led by a mad-man bent upon Israel’s destruction. This perspective belies the reality that Iran is a large nation with complex political views of all kinds. One can argue till the cows come home about the accuracy of whether or not Iran really will launch an attack on Iran or not but such argument is to my mind pointless since the truth lies in the intelligence which no-one has access to. My fear, which as I said I remain open-minded upon, is that the world is being led down the same propaganda path that led to the Iraq debacle, which as I said, has now been accurately and factually proven to be a pack of lies. Furthermore, the Iraq war was a success. The occupation is a disaster.
Coincidentally or not, this plays right into the neo-con/Likud hands, since it takes out Iraq as a threat. It is now in no condition to threaten Israel and if, as I said on another thread, a proposal is made in future to split it into three, this makes that condition permanent, with the bonus that the close Kurdish-Israeli relationship means that Israel gets access to almost all of Iraq’s oil.
Some might argue that this is just too ridiculous and it couldn’t possible be true. As I say, I remain open-minded to alternative explanations that explain the above events in other ways. At this point in time however, my perspective is that the alignment between the neo-con/Likud ideology and strategy as outlined in their official documents and the current security position in the ME has been directed and as more and more evidence emerges of what reallly happened in the WH in 2002-2003 and subsequently, more and more of my suspicions are confirmed.
January 17th, 2009 at 2:08 pm
Cha, Reid, et al,
The old (new?) cliche argument that the person/nation being attacked may only respond in a “proportional manner” denies the fact that history does not (nor should it) bear this out. Surely, no one would argue that Nazi Germany should not have been overthrown by whatever force was required to bring an end to this (evil) regime. A so called “proportional war” is a misnomer. When “evil” comes against “good” (- and let’s make no bones about this, Hamas (and Islam) is evil), then that system should be overthrown.
The end goals of Islam are:
1) the annihilation of ALL Jews from the planet (includes the destruction of the nation of Israel).
2) the annihilation of ALL Christians from the planet.
3) the subjugation of the entire globe (ie the rest of us) to Islam.
Until the world wakes up to the fact that Hamas, Hezbollah et al are not “radical terrorist organisations” but are simply following the examples of Mohamed, and the teachings of the Koran, then, Islamic based terrorism will continue to increase globally until it either achieves its end goals, or is destroyed.
Israel is first on the list. If Israel was destroyed, and then the Islamic nations began to attack the rest of the non Islamic world, I wonder how many would then be arguing FOR a “proportional response”. I think that number would be very small. And even if there were some that held that view, Islam would roll over them just the same, without distinction.
We need to wake up people!
January 17th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Sonny, what about provocation, don’t you understand.
Fact: Gazans democratically elected Hamas in 2005.
Fact: Israel not once ever treated them as the elected govt but instead took every step possible to prevent them from executing their democratically elected position as the govt of the Gazan people. Israel did this by preventing access to all kinds of extremely vital supplies including money, fuel, medicine and food.
Fact: Finally, after several years of this treatment at which point Gazans still had not shown any signs of turning against their democratically elected govt, Israel took the ultimate step and started killing people, specifically targetting all of the Hamas leadership.
Your post appears to indicate that you think the Gazan people had a fair shot and they blew it by letting Hamas continue with their rocket attacks which were completely unjustified and that Israel was therefore the innocent party when it reluctantly took the ultimate step to end this outrage.
Permit me to disagree with your analysis.
January 17th, 2009 at 2:25 pm
Yeh Reid with a population of just 7 million Israel really needs to secure those Oil supplies.
What a crock of shit.
Lets spend $3billion on an army to ensure we keep petrol at a $1 a litre.
January 17th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Reid after the six day war Israel tried to give Gaza back to Egypt but they didn’t want it. I wonder why?
Also if Jordan still controlled (occupied?) the West Bank would there be calls for a Palestinian state? 70% of Jordanians are Palestinian, but they seem to be quite happy living in another country.
The state of the Gaza Strip is not Israels. Billions of $ of aid money has been siphoned off into offshore accounts.
Who built the Shifa hospital and left it for the Gazan’s to use?
Who demolished all the greenhouses left by Israeli settlers that could have been used to produce food and jobs?
January 17th, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Reid.
What do you think is really going on here, i mean you seem to have to formulated a very strong conclusion based on factual evidence but i think you are missing the true aims. Not one country in the big five cares for U.N resolutions anymore, you know that saying might makes right?
Well how about Might keeps the lights on and the credit cards in working order.
The world uses a Fiat currency which demands constant growth and constant debt in a finite world, country’s who do not adopt this model of currency tend to meet a rather untimely end, one example is the former Iraqi government who where going to start selling Oil in Euro’s instead of Greenback, if you think for a moment about where money comes from and how it is created you will realize that this is simply unacceptable to sell real wealth in another currency that isn’t the worlds reserve.
Now how dose this effect Gaza and Hamas? quite simply Fatah was not politically aligned with Iran to any strong degree as a result various state representatives held talks with them, why is it different for Hamas? because they are proxys for Iran, Iran dose not use a fully instituted fractional reserve currency and are …. energy exporters.
So truly I don’t think Uncle sam gives a shit that Hamas are terrorists, look at all the terrorist acts committed by western powers and you will see that this is true, i have a very strong inkling this has more to do with geopolitics in the west than actual concerns about the plight of Israel and Palestine. So when you come to this realization, you begin to understand why certain country’s behave the way they do, Russia supporting Iran and America Supporting Israel.
It makes me laugh all this Outrage directed at Israel, firstly where dose Israel get its weapons from? secondly who dose Israel export the most products too, apply this to Hamas as well and then you have the true Masters of this war.
January 17th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Kris, who the hell said anything about that? Which of those facts I listed in my 11:30 can you disprove? Evidence please. Note: I have made no interpretations, simply given facts. So please don’t bother responding with interpretations of your own, if you choose to respond at all.
Lastly, how is your post relevant in anyway to anything I or Cha said? I fail to see any relevance at all.
January 17th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
SR, the fact you see how there is no appeal to Israel of securing all of Iraq’s oil, explains a lot to me about the opinions you hold on this particular issue. Normally I find you quite astute but on this particular issue you show so far, nothing of your usual intelligence.
Your 2:31 simply lists historical background. Who cares?
January 17th, 2009 at 2:46 pm
Reid with 24,000 UN staff in Gaza and 99% of the Palestinians what do you think the chances are of UN staff actually being the ones launching rockets at Israel?
Good storage for the equipment, perceived safe launching site and of cause a great chance of left wing media having a field day when the attack is returned.
January 17th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Yes Banana, it’s probably no coincidence that the only countries who don’t operate a fiat currency are or were: Iran, Iraq, North Korea, Cuba.
One down, three to go.
I wish more people were like you. You obviously understand what money, debt, fiat currency and central reserve banking is all about.
However, I don’t quite draw the same close connection that you do, between the money issue and the security operations that I posted about above. However, I’ll give it some thought. Thanks for that new perspective.
January 17th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Reid I see your idols Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Syria and Iran all managed to catchup yesterday for a love in in Qatar.
You didn’t happen to pop by and get any autographs did you?
January 17th, 2009 at 3:02 pm
SR, that’s a good point. I’m absolutely 100% certain that there are propaganda-driven operations being driven on both sides, it would be idiotic to think that wasn’t the case.
This is why my policy is always to wait till the dust settles before I get down to understanding things like casualty figures and the details of specific incidents that at the time they occurred, were broadcast widely and loudly by the idiotic MSM. I feel that accuracy is impossible to achieve because of the propaganda smoke and at the end of the day, accuracy is what you really need if you want to assess the ongoing effect of the various incidents on the wider issue.
January 17th, 2009 at 3:09 pm
See this is what I don’t get SR. I have challenged people before and I challenge you now, to find anything I’ve said on any of these Gaza threads, that voices in any way, support for any of those organisations you list above, or for any other terrorist organisation that you haven’t mentioned.
All I’ve ever done is voice interpretations that were critical of Israeli tactics and I’ve explained exactly why I think they are wrong, both strategically and geostrategically. I’ve also explained why IMO, they have been done.
I’m frankly at a loss to understand why some people interpret this criticism as being in any way, against the people of Israel, or in any way, as being support for terrorist organisations. To conclude it as being such, is in my view, taking such a juvenile approach to the argument that it’s comparable to the level of a school-boy, who doesn’t like someone merely because that person expresses opinions contrary to their own. In my view, that’s verging on fucked in the head territory, and I’m beginning to get mildly annoyed by the continued expression of such wrong-headedness.
January 17th, 2009 at 3:15 pm
Reid,
Israel has been provoked into protecting itself by numerous acts of war.
The Palestinians elected a government who have openly declared their intent to destroy Israel. Israel are then justified to prevent Hamas acquiring the means to follow through on their goals. I don’t believe there can be any meaningful peace until Hamas remove the destruction of Israel from their charter. This would be straight forward for them to do, but I think they are not doing it because they would lose popularity in the eyes of their voters (ie they are not changing it because it is the popular will of the Palestinian people).
> Your post appears to indicate that you think the Gazan people had a fair shot and they blew it by letting Hamas continue >with their rocket attacks which were completely unjustified and that Israel was therefore the innocent party when it >reluctantly took the ultimate step to end this outrage.
Correct.
It’s not very hard not to shoot rockets at people with overwhelmingly superior military forces. But you seem to suggest that they just can’t help themselves and aren’t be accountable for the consequences. If the Palestinian leadership ever had the wisdom to dump all their rockets on the border and let Israel destroy them, I am sure they would be left in enduring peace. The other way to peace is through overwhelming military superiority, the Arabs thought they had it in 1948, but now it is in the hands of Israel.
Hamas leader Nizzar Rayyan has stated the following ‘The only reason to have a truce is to prepare yourself for the final battle. We don’t need 50 years to prepare ourselves for the final battle with Israel. Israel is an impossibility. It is an offense against God.’.
While you might not take these kind of statements seriously, Israel understandibly does.
January 17th, 2009 at 3:26 pm
.
January 17th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Correct. They were and remain classified by the UN as a terrorist organization, and they have the annihilation of Israel and killing of all Jews on their charter. In provoking Israel to respond via repeated attacks on innocent Israeli civilians Hamas has simply made good their desire for war, to the obvious detriment of their people who they clearly care little for. Hamas may not be lining Gazan’s up against the wall and shooting them like members of the former Fatah administration, but using Gazan’s civilians and public places for pre-meditated military attacks on Israeli civilians has the same result.
And you think NZ would (if it could) do anything different if a new Fijian government was elected on the promise that it would kill all NZers? Reid, Hamas – the democratically elected terrorists – deny Israel the right to exist. And you expect Israel to maintain cordial diplomatic relationship with them?!? As for the ‘vital supplies’ there was the teensy-weensy problem of Hamas wanting lots of Jew-killing weapons.
Bollocks. If Hamas hadn’t started to make good their election promises with respect to killing their civilian neighbours then they would have been left alone.
Reading your comments on this matter, and then on others has seen me coin a new term: Dr Jekyl and Mr Reid.
Are you, by chance, Palestinian?
January 17th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
Sonny, I’m not saying in any way that Israel does not face serious security threats and I’d even go so far as to say that I have a better idea than most people as to exactly what those threats are. (I’m not saying that I understand them better than you do, merely that I understand them far far better than the average person.)
I just don’t see, on balance, the whole Israeli-Palestinian situation as being a one-sided situation. I think it’s entirely the case that Israel for reasons of its own does not play a straight hand in many many things and it’s the same on the other side.
I think that rose-tinted glasses need to be removed (personally, I’ve never owned a pair), and when you do that, the truth will appear.
The fact is, that Israel is not threatened existentially by these terrorist organisations that she is forced to live with. She has a real bad situation, living with these bastards. They do want to kill her. However, Israel is strong enough as a state to resist all-comers, unless you get a curve-ball like a rogue WMD. Now, this is reality. The fact Hamas and uncle Mohammed and all has it in their charters to kill Israel, doesn’t mean they can. This is the point.
Given this, Israel has a choice. She can either take a hard-ball approach, or not. The point is, because she is not existentially threatened, she doesn’t have to. What I object to, is the fact that the only ball she ever plays is the hard one. There are times when this is a good thing and you should play it. There are other times when this is not a good thing, and you shouldn’t play it.
An alternative strategy for dealing with the election of Hamas in 2005 was to call her bluff and sit down and try and work with her. It may have worked out or it may not have. My point is, that was never tried.
Instead, we have ended up at this point where the security situation for the people of Israel is even worse than it was in 2005, in every way. The not-working-with-Hamas strategy has not worked.
It’s entirely too late to change it now, at this moment in time, since all that the strategy has achieved is to heighten to wasp nest to a feverish pitch.
In my book, that’s called a strategic failure, and it’s time to think of a new play.
January 17th, 2009 at 3:41 pm
getstaffed, I’ve dealt with your point before, many times.
According to your logic, Israel should never work with any terrorist organisation.
That leaves only one alternative. Eliminate everyone in Gaza.
Good argument, getstaffed, oh, and do read my 3:09, there’s a good boy.
January 17th, 2009 at 3:55 pm
Reid,
I believe Israel is existentially threatened by these events.
The military actions undertaken over the last 4 weeks have cost a nation of 7 million over a billion $, and then there are the costs of the rocket shield they are developing to protect themselves. Israel used to spend 24% of gdp on defence spending (it is significantly less now I believe) and this has a significant impact on the economy.
Israel has a developed economy that it must protect, companies like Intel will not continue to make the investments they have in Israel if their investments cannot be protected. If these companies leave, Israel will no longer be able to afford to defend itself as well.
Israel, like all advanced modern military, has an economic limit to its actions and this is why I think they have to hit hard and fast, because it is too expensive to let it happen again. I think this is Hamas goal, cheap actions provoking expensive retalitation.
I think this is also a strategy for radical Islamicists worldwide. To open as many fronts worldwide to drive the western economies to collapse.
January 17th, 2009 at 3:56 pm
reid, no you haven’t really. you have said many times that Hamas is democratically elected as if that creates some kind of mandate to make good their aggression. which of course it doesn’t. As for being upset that folks here see you as supporting Hamas , perhaps you could stop defending them?
January 17th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
As I said in the GD thread I’m finding it extremely hard to have any sympathy for any people who did this
http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k
WTF is in their heads apart from hate?
January 17th, 2009 at 4:07 pm
A lot of people do, Sonny. However, fact is, Israel has a cast-iron cross-party decades-old security guarantee with the world’s only superpower. This gives it and will continue to give it, ammunition and hardware that cannot be beaten. No terrorist organisation can compete with that, only a large nation can. So, what about those?
Israel also has nukes. All of her neighbours also know that if they make one serious move toward taking on Israel, the US will exercise all its efforts to blow them to smithereens with their overwhelming firepower.
That’s why she is not existentially threatened.
January 17th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Upset is too strong a term, getstaffed, I don’t really care for it says more about your logical ability than anything else. Why can’t you and others get it through your skulls that criticising Israeli tactics does not equate to support for Israel’s enemies. It’s not an either/or. Interpreting it as such, is both idiotic and logically wrong.
This is why.
Israel’s strategy is not working. I’ve shown why, above. Therefore, it should try something else. I’ve said what, above.
What about that, supports Israel’s enemies?
January 17th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
for those defending UNRWAs position in Gaza link shows a fight between IDF and terrorists in Gaza shows one UN ambulance providing cover for gunmen and another UN ambulance being used by Palestinians to transport armed militants.
This footage was shot by Reuters in May 2004 the day 6 IDF soldiers were killed when their armored personnel carrier was blown up — but only released two weeks later.
At the time Israel has complained to the UN that Palestinian militants used U.N. ambulances to spirit away the remains of Israeli soldiers killed during a Gaza Strip raid. The commissioner-general of UNRWA for Palestine Refugees, , said in a statement he had demanded an apology from Israel’s defense minister for what he called “damaging and baseless allegations.”
http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=9ONKb9J2YeU
Why would the UN be different now? The footage looks fairly conclusive to me
January 17th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Nothing, in my view, Patrick. They’re execrable bastards aren’t they. The whole lot of them. But they have to be dealt with, or eliminated. There is no other alternative.
The whole question therefore becomes, what’s the best possible way to deal with them?
January 17th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
A lot of people do, Sonny. However, fact is, Israel has a cast-iron cross-party decades-old security guarantee with the world’s only superpower.
What makes you think there is only one super power left in the world? i am quite fascinated by what shapes peoples perceptions of this, sure they have the only major blue water fleet left but other than that it looks pretty even to me.
January 17th, 2009 at 4:27 pm
Reid, Ive said before I dont condone innocent children been caught in the crossfire, and the whole thing about the UN schools and buildings started to make me really concerned about the IDF’s actions. I guess you have to accept this is a PR war, and we probably only know less than 1% of what Israel intelligence know is really happening. I strongly suspected the UN were harbouring Hamas, it’s filled with Minto and Locke types. I just dont know to what extent – but it’s becoming clearer
I’m now thinking perhaps the IDF’s actions are more justified then I previously thought
January 17th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
getstaffed you’re right I didn’t fully address your previous post, so here you go.
No-one will ever know whether Hamas would have continued its rocket attacks on Israel if Israel had tried to sit down and work with them in 2005. No-one will ever know if it was only Hamas who continued to launch those rockets between 2005-present or whether other organisations like Fatah were doing it as well, specifically to provoke what we see today. One thing however, that we do know for sure, is that the not-working-with-Hamas strategy has not worked and will continue not to work.
I’ve dealt with the charter question above: in short, who cares, reality is, whatever they say, they can’t kill Israel, so who cares.
I’ve dealt with the human shields question above: I always wait till the propaganda dust settles before looking into such things.
Again, I’ve dealt with the charter issue above. The supplies issue is a problem, isn’t it. Maybe one thing they could have tried given you could make these rockets out of everyday goods, was to treat those particular goods in a different way than they treated other goods. That’s a fairly obvious thing to do, if that was the particular reason for the restriction. However that doesn’t explain why they restricted medical supplies as well, does it.
We’ll never know will we getstaffed, whether the rocket attacks would have stopped or not. That’s the whole point. It was never tried, and you don’t know, and I don’t know. So why try and pretend that you think you know what would have happened?
January 17th, 2009 at 4:35 pm
It’s an easy way to explain things to others without getting into the finer geostrategic realities, banana.
January 17th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Hamas have said time and time again that ceasefires are only agreed by Hamas to provide time to rearm. Each time they get more and more weapons.
The UN is a crime against humanity.
January 17th, 2009 at 4:39 pm
Cancellation of Gaza protest in Ramallah shows West Bank apathy
A pro-Gaza demonstration in the West Bank city of Ramallah had to be canceled on Wednesday for lack of support, illustrating the widespread level of apathy residents feel toward the plight of their Palestinian brethren not far away. Demonstrators had been marching from the city square each afternoon in protest of the Israeli offensive, but each day saw their numbers dwindle, ending in just a trickle. Instead, residents can be found playing cards in cafes, eating in restaurants and going about their normal routines. The lack of civil unrest in the West Bank, also known as Judea and Samaria, may stem from the permeating disappointment and frustration with the leadership of both the Palestinian Authority and Hamas. Mahmoud Abbas’ PA is often seen as collaborators with Israel. Indeed, the security agreement between the two has contributed to the relative tranquility in the territories. The Hamas coup that expelled the Fatah-run PA from Gaza has also left residents bitter. Many feel that Hamas alone is responsible for their predicament, according to media reports.
January 17th, 2009 at 4:41 pm
Iran-backed Hamas Fires at Israeli Troops from Civilian-Filled UNRWA Compound
Attack Comes During Israeli Ceasefire to Deliver Humanitarian Aid into Gaza
Experts Available to be interviewed on Israel/Gaza
TIP’s New Bipartisan Poll on Israel/Gaza
TIP Begins TV Ad Campaign As Hamas Fires Iranian-made Rockets
Iran-backed Hamas in Gaza used the cover of a United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) compound to fire on Israel Defense Forces (IDF) Thursday (Jan. 15), prompting Israeli troops to fire back. [1] Hamas’s attack came during the daily humanitarian aid ceasefire instituted by Israel to ensure that Palestinian civilians receive food, medicine and other necessities. [2]
The UNRWA compound is the agency’s headquarters for Palestinian refugees and also contains offices and a school. [3] At the time of the attack, the compound was serving as a shelter for hundreds of Palestinians. Hamas used anti-tank weapons and machine guns against the IDF. [4] Three UN staff members were injured when Israeli troops returned fire. [5] UNRWA has a long history of allowing its ambulances, schools and other facilities to be used by terrorist groups. Click here for numerous examples
After the incident, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, “This is a sad incident, and I apologize for it, but our forces were attacked from there and the response was harsh. We did not wish for such an incident to happen, and I don’t know if you are aware of this, but Hamas attacked from within the UNRWA building during our humanitarian pause in Gaza.” [6]
Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak told Ban and International Committee of the Red Cross President Jakob Kellenberger, “Hamas is using Palestinian civilians as human shields, shooting at Israeli soldiers from positions close to UN facilities. IDF soldiers respond, and will continue to respond, to any attempt to harm them – this is basic self-defense. The IDF will continue to operate while making a supreme effort to avoid harming uninvolved civilians and to extend assistance to the UN organizations involved in humanitarian activity.” [7]
The Hamas attack, and Barak’s comments to the UN secretary-general, came just minutes before the UN chief held a joint press conference in Tel Aviv with Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni. During the press conference, Ban insisted on an immediate ceasefire. Livni said Hamas violated the six-month ceasefire that began June 19 on a daily basis and continuously smuggled in weaponry, using the period of calm to rearm. “Hamas cannot become legitimate until it accepts the terms of the international community,” she said. [8]
Israeli officials also have said a ceasefire would be contingent on Hamas ending its constant rocket, mortar and missile attacks on Israeli civilians. Hamas and other terrorist groups in Gaza have fired more than 9,400 rockets and mortars at Israel since 2003 [9] and 6,500 since Israel withdrew from Gaza more than three years ago and turned the area to the Palestinian Authority. [10]
Yesterday (Jan. 15), Hamas fired a mortar shell into Israel which contained white phosphorous. The shell landed in a field near the town of Sderot. [11]
The security chief of the Eshkol Regional Council, Nikki Levy, said, “The potential danger of using such a rocket is enormous. It is far more dangerous than other Qassam rockets and mortar shells. This is an escalation in the type of explosives the Palestinians use on civilians.” [12]
The deliberate use of white phosphorous against civilians is prohibited by international law. Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups direct their rocket and mortar fire at Israeli population centers which is itself a violation of international law. [13]
Palestinian terrorists fired approximately 23 rockets at Israel today (Jan. 15), one of which fell in the city of Beersheba, injuring seven people, including a young boy. The cities of G’dera, Ofakim and Sderot were also hit by the rocket fire. [14]
Since the beginning of Israel’s defensive operation in Gaza Dec. 27, terrorists in Gaza have fired more than 650 rockets and mortars at Israel. The rocket fire has, however, significantly declined since the start of the operation. On Dec. 27, 2008, 94 rockets and mortars were fired from Gaza and yesterday (Jan. 14), the number of rockets and mortars fired was 19. [15]
Misuse of UN Facilities by Terrorist Groups
In recent years UNRWA has come under increased scrutiny for its involvement with Palestinian terrorist organizations in Gaza and the West Bank, especially by Hamas. U.S. and Israeli officials and diplomats have charged, and UN officials have admitted, that UNRWA has implicitly assisted terrorists in the misuse of UN infrastructure, including ambulances, schools and other facilities.
UNRWA’s failure to report contact with Palestinian terrorist groups, or to prevent them, violate the UN’s own conventions. Security Council resolutions oblige UNRWA representatives to take “appropriate steps to help create a secure environment” in all “situations where refugees [are]…vulnerable to infiltration by armed elements.”
Said Lanny J. Davis, spokesperson for The Israel Project, “We Americans see UNRWA as becoming more and more a propaganda organization rather than one that states the facts and remains faithful to its humanitarian mission. For example, UNWRA consistently omits telling the world that Iran-backed Hamas terrorists shoot rocket launches and live fire from in, and the vicinity of, UNRWA schools and facilities. They also consistently omit telling the world that it is Hamas that launches rockets intentionally trying to kill innocent civilians, whereas Israel is forced to defend itself and sometimes inadvertently causes injury or worse to civilians. The fact that UNRWA can’t make that immense moral distinction undermines its credibility as an international organization.”
Specific examples of UNRWA’s misuse include:
• On Jan. 6, 2009, as part of defensive operations in the Gaza Strip, IDF forces came under mortar attack from within the UNRWA-run al-Fakhora school in Jabalya. In response to the incoming enemy fire, the IDF returned mortar fire to the source. The IDF return fire landed outside of the school but reports indicate that dozens of Palestinians were killed. IDF spokesmen have said that among those killed were Imad Abu Iskar and Hassan Abu Iskar, two senior Hamas rocket operatives. The presence of Hamas fighters outside the school has been confirmed by first-hand accounts by residents of the area in reports in the Associated Press and The New York Times. Israeli defense officials told the Associated Press that booby-trapped bombs in the school had triggered secondary explosions that killed additional Palestinian civilians there. [16]
• On Oct. 29, 2007, terrorists in Beit Hanoun, Gaza used an UNWRA school to launch mortars into Israel. UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon deplored the attack and asked UNRWA to conduct a full investigation. [17]
• In May 2008 Reuters reported that Awad al-Qiq, an Islamic Jihad rocket engineer, had been moonlighting as a science teacher and deputy headmaster at the Rafah Prep Boys School, run by UNRWA. Al-Qiq was killed while supervising a factory assembling rockets and other weapons for use against Israel, located just a short distance from the school. [18]
• Nahed Rashid Ahmed Attallah, UNRWA’s Director of Food Supplies for Gaza, admitted to using his UN vehicle on multiple occasions during the summer of 2002 to transport arms, explosives, and activists from the Popular Resistance Committee to carry out terrorist attacks. Attallah also confessed to contacting members of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in Syria “in order to obtain money for transferring arms to the Gaza Strip as assistance for the PRC.” [19]
• Armed Palestinians have been filmed using UNRWA ambulances to transport
terrorists and, possibly, remains of fallen Israeli soldiers in Gaza. [20]
• Of the 17 UNRWA employees Israel has arrested and indicted since 2001 for aiding terrorists, seven have been convicted in military courts. [21]
• UNWRA’s former Commissioner-General Peter Hansen admitted that the agency has employed members of Hamas and other terrorist factions but that he was not aware of any who were active members. According to Hansen: “Hamas as a political organization does not mean that every member is a militant and we do not do political vetting and exclude people from one persuasion as against another.” [22]
• On April 25, 2007 the UNRWA representative in New York, Andrew Whitley, revealed to congressional staff that UNRWA provided cash assistance to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. [23]
• According to a November 2003 U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) report: “During the first 6 months of 2003, assailants occupied or attacked UNRWA facilities on nine occasions.” [24]
• Alaa Muhammad Ali Hassan, a Tanzim member affiliated with Fatah, confessed during interrogation that he had carried out a sniper shooting from a school run by UNRWA in the al-Ayn refugee camp near Nablus. He also told his interrogators that bombs intended for terrorist attacks were being manufactured inside the UNRWA school’s facilities. [25]
• In 1982, President Reagan accused UNRWA of allowing its Lebanese camps to become armed bastions of the Palestine Liberation Organization. Forced to investigate when Reagan threatened to withhold U.S. funding for the organization, UNRWA admitted that several camps indeed had been militarized. While the Security Council hasn’t enforced 1208 in the Palestinian territories, it has applied pressure on militant Palestinian refugees elsewhere.[26]
——————————————————————————–
Footnotes:
[1] Ravid, Barak, “Olmert to Ban: Gunmen fired at IDF troops from UN Gaza compound,” Haaretz, Jan. 15, 2009, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055761.html
[2] Sofer, Roni, “Olmert apologizes to UN chief for UNRWA compound strike,” YnetNews, Jan. 15, 2009, http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3656903,00.html
[3] Waked, Ali and Levy, Yael, “Gaza:IDF shells UN compound, hospital also hit,” YnetNews, Jan. 15, 2009, http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3656716,00.html
[4] Ravid, Barak, “Olmert to Ban: Gunmen fired at IDF troops from UN Gaza compound,” Haaretz, Jan. 15, 2009, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055761.html
[5] “Gaza pounded amid push for truce,” BBC News, Jan. 15, 2009, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7829912.stm
[6] Ravid, Barak, “Olmert to Ban: Gunmen fired at IDF troops from UN Gaza compound,” Haaretz, Jan. 15, 2009, http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1055761.html
[7] Statement by Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak to UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon and ICRC President Jackob Kellenberger, Israel Ministry of Defense, Jan. 15, 2009
[8] Kirsh, Elana, “Ban: Death toll in Gaza ‘unbearable’,” The Jerusalem Post, Jan. 15, 2009, http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231950861136&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
[9] IDF Spokesperson’s Unit, Dec. 19, 2008; “Iran-backed Terrorists in Gaza Kill 3, Wound Others in Continuing Rocket Attacks on Israel,” The Israel Project press release, Dec. 29, 2008, http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=hsJPK0PIJpH&b=3587015&content_id={4F0CF025-98BF-4875-A59B-B1F5E4B079F7}¬oc=1; Barzak, Ibrahim and Friedman, Matti, “Israel rejects truce call, pursues bombing Gaza,” Associated Press, Dec. 31, 2008, http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD95DQIEO0
[10] Ibid.
[11] “Israel: Hamas fires phosphorus shell,” The International Herald Tribune, Jan. 14, 2009, http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2009/01/14/news/ML-Israel-Phosphorus-Shell.php
[12] Curiel, Ilana, “Phosphorus mortar shell detected in Negev,” YnetNews, Jan. 14, 2009, http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3656311,00.html
[13] Frenkel, Sheera, “Spent shells prove Israeli use of white phosphorus, Gaza doctors say,” The Times, Jan. 15, 2009, http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5519433.ece; “Letter to Hamas to Stop Rocket Attacks,” Human Rights Watch, Nov. 20, 2009, http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/11/20/letter-hamas-stop-rocket-attacks
[14] “Several wounded as Grad rockets hit Beersheba,” The Jerusalem Post, Jan. 15, 2009, http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231950853502&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
[15] “Operation Cast Lead – Update No. 14,” Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, Jan. 14, 2009, http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_multimedia/English/eng_n/html/hamas_e040.htm
[16] Kershner, Isabel and Taghreed El-Khodary. “Israeli Shells Kill 40 at Gaza U.N. School,” The New York Times, Jan. 7, 2009; Barzak, Ibrahaim and Matti Friedman, “Israel conditionally welcomes cease-fire proposal,” The Associated Press, Jan. 7, 2009; Katz,Yaakov; “Witnesses: Hamas
fired from school,” The Jerusalem Post, Jan. 6, 2009
[17] “Ban Ki-moon condemns rocket attack from Gaza school run by UN agency,” UN News Centre, Nov. 8, 2007, http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=24593&Cr=palestin&Cr1
[18] Entous, Adam. “Gaza headmaster was Islamic Jihad ‘rocket-maker,’” Reuters, May 5, 2008
[19] Levitt, Matthew, “Terror on the U.N. Payroll?” PeaceWatch #475, The
Washington Institute for Near East Policy. Oct. 14, 2004
[20] Avni, Benny, “Armed Palestinian Fighters Seen in U.N. Ambulance,” The New York Sun, May 28, 2004
[21] Myre, Greg, “Israel Feuds With Agency Set Up to Aid Palestinians,” The New York Times, Oct. 18, 2004
[22] Ibid.
[23] Dear colleague letter from Rep. Mark Steven Kirk (IL-10) to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Dec. 11, 2007
[24] GAO-04-276R, “Department of State (State) and United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) Actions to Implement Section 301(c) of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961,” U.S. Government Accountability Office, Nov. 17, 2003, http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04276r.pdf
[25] Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center at the Center for Special
Studies, February 2002
[26] Jordan, Michael J., “Unmasking UNRWA,” Jewish Telegraphic Agency, March 15, 2006
January 17th, 2009 at 4:42 pm
Iran-backed Hamas Fires at Israeli Troops from Civilian-Filled UNRWA Compound
Attack Comes During Israeli Ceasefire to Deliver Humanitarian Aid into Gaza
Experts Available to be interviewed on Israel/Gaza
TIP’s New Bipartisan Poll on Israel/Gaza
TIP Begins TV Ad Campaign As Hamas Fires Iranian-made Rockets
Iran-backed Hamas in Gaza used the cover of a United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) compound to fire on Israel Defense Forces (IDF) Thursday (Jan. 15), prompting Israeli troops to fire back. [1] Hamas’s attack came during the daily humanitarian aid ceasefire instituted by Israel to ensure that Palestinian civilians receive food, medicine and other necessities. [2]
The UNRWA compound is the agency’s headquarters for Palestinian refugees and also contains offices and a school. [3] At the time of the attack, the compound was serving as a shelter for hundreds of Palestinians. Hamas used anti-tank weapons and machine guns against the IDF. [4] Three UN staff members were injured when Israeli troops returned fire. [5] UNRWA has a long history of allowing its ambulances, schools and other facilities to be used by terrorist groups. Click here for numerous examples
After the incident, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, “This is a sad incident, and I apologize for it, but our forces were attacked from there and the response was harsh. We did not wish for such an incident to happen, and I don’t know if you are aware of this, but Hamas attacked from within the UNRWA building during our humanitarian pause in Gaza.” [6]
Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak told Ban and International Committee of the Red Cross President Jakob Kellenberger, “Hamas is using Palestinian civilians as human shields, shooting at Israeli soldiers from positions close to UN facilities. IDF soldiers respond, and will continue to respond, to any attempt to harm them – this is basic self-defense. The IDF will continue to operate while making a supreme effort to avoid harming uninvolved civilians and to extend assistance to the UN organizations involved in humanitarian activity.” [7]
The Hamas attack, and Barak’s comments to the UN secretary-general, came just minutes before the UN chief held a joint press conference in Tel Aviv with Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni. During the press conference, Ban insisted on an immediate ceasefire. Livni said Hamas violated the six-month ceasefire that began June 19 on a daily basis and continuously smuggled in weaponry, using the period of calm to rearm. “Hamas cannot become legitimate until it accepts the terms of the international community,” she said. [8]
Israeli officials also have said a ceasefire would be contingent on Hamas ending its constant rocket, mortar and missile attacks on Israeli civilians. Hamas and other terrorist groups in Gaza have fired more than 9,400 rockets and mortars at Israel since 2003 [9] and 6,500 since Israel withdrew from Gaza more than three years ago and turned the area to the Palestinian Authority. [10]
Yesterday (Jan. 15), Hamas fired a mortar shell into Israel which contained white phosphorous. The shell landed in a field near the town of Sderot. [11]
The security chief of the Eshkol Regional Council, Nikki Levy, said, “The potential danger of using such a rocket is enormous. It is far more dangerous than other Qassam rockets and mortar shells. This is an escalation in the type of explosives the Palestinians use on civilians.” [12]
The deliberate use of white phosphorous against civilians is prohibited by international law. Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups direct their rocket and mortar fire at Israeli population centers which is itself a violation of international law. [13]
Palestinian terrorists fired approximately 23 rockets at Israel today (Jan. 15), one of which fell in the city of Beersheba, injuring seven people, including a young boy. The cities of G’dera, Ofakim and Sderot were also hit by the rocket fire. [14]
Since the beginning of Israel’s defensive operation in Gaza Dec. 27, terrorists in Gaza have fired more than 650 rockets and mortars at Israel. The rocket fire has, however, significantly declined since the start of the operation. On Dec. 27, 2008, 94 rockets and mortars were fired from Gaza and yesterday (Jan. 14), the number of rockets and mortars fired was 19. [15]
Misuse of UN Facilities by Terrorist Groups
In recent years UNRWA has come under increased scrutiny for its involvement with Palestinian terrorist organizations in Gaza and the West Bank, especially by Hamas. U.S. and Israeli officials and diplomats have charged, and UN officials have admitted, that UNRWA has implicitly assisted terrorists in the misuse of UN infrastructure, including ambulances, schools and other facilities.
UNRWA’s failure to report contact with Palestinian terrorist groups, or to prevent them, violate the UN’s own conventions. Security Council resolutions oblige UNRWA representatives to take “appropriate steps to help create a secure environment” in all “situations where refugees [are]…vulnerable to infiltration by armed elements.”
Said Lanny J. Davis, spokesperson for The Israel Project, “We Americans see UNRWA as becoming more and more a propaganda organization rather than one that states the facts and remains faithful to its humanitarian mission. For example, UNWRA consistently omits telling the world that Iran-backed Hamas terrorists shoot rocket launches and live fire from in, and the vicinity of, UNRWA schools and facilities. They also consistently omit telling the world that it is Hamas that launches rockets intentionally trying to kill innocent civilians, whereas Israel is forced to defend itself and sometimes inadvertently causes injury or worse to civilians. The fact that UNRWA can’t make that immense moral distinction undermines its credibility as an international organization.”
Specific examples of UNRWA’s misuse include:
• On Jan. 6, 2009, as part of defensive operations in the Gaza Strip, IDF forces came under mortar attack from within the UNRWA-run al-Fakhora school in Jabalya. In response to the incoming enemy fire, the IDF returned mortar fire to the source. The IDF return fire landed outside of the school but reports indicate that dozens of Palestinians were killed. IDF spokesmen have said that among those killed were Imad Abu Iskar and Hassan Abu Iskar, two senior Hamas rocket operatives. The presence of Hamas fighters outside the school has been confirmed by first-hand accounts by residents of the area in reports in the Associated Press and The New York Times. Israeli defense officials told the Associated Press that booby-trapped bombs in the school had triggered secondary explosions that killed additional Palestinian civilians there. [16]
• On Oct. 29, 2007, terrorists in Beit Hanoun, Gaza used an UNWRA school to launch mortars into Israel. UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon deplored the attack and asked UNRWA to conduct a full investigation. [17]
• In May 2008 Reuters reported that Awad al-Qiq, an Islamic Jihad rocket engineer, had been moonlighting as a science teacher and deputy headmaster at the Rafah Prep Boys School, run by UNRWA. Al-Qiq was killed while supervising a factory assembling rockets and other weapons for use against Israel, located just a short distance from the school. [18]
• Nahed Rashid Ahmed Attallah, UNRWA’s Director of Food Supplies for Gaza, admitted to using his UN vehicle on multiple occasions during the summer of 2002 to transport arms, explosives, and activists from the Popular Resistance Committee to carry out terrorist attacks. Attallah also confessed to contacting members of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in Syria “in order to obtain money for transferring arms to the Gaza Strip as assistance for the PRC.” [19]
• Armed Palestinians have been filmed using UNRWA ambulances to transport
terrorists and, possibly, remains of fallen Israeli soldiers in Gaza. [20]
• Of the 17 UNRWA employees Israel has arrested and indicted since 2001 for aiding terrorists, seven have been convicted in military courts. [21]
• UNWRA’s former Commissioner-General Peter Hansen admitted that the agency has employed members of Hamas and other terrorist factions but that he was not aware of any who were active members. According to Hansen: “Hamas as a political organization does not mean that every member is a militant and we do not do political vetting and exclude people from one persuasion as against another.” [22]
• On April 25, 2007 the UNRWA representative in New York, Andrew Whitley, revealed to congressional staff that UNRWA provided cash assistance to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. [23]
• According to a November 2003 U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) report: “During the first 6 months of 2003, assailants occupied or attacked UNRWA facilities on nine occasions.” [24]
• Alaa Muhammad Ali Hassan, a Tanzim member affiliated with Fatah, confessed during interrogation that he had carried out a sniper shooting from a school run by UNRWA in the al-Ayn refugee camp near Nablus. He also told his interrogators that bombs intended for terrorist attacks were being manufactured inside the UNRWA school’s facilities. [25]
• In 1982, President Reagan accused UNRWA of allowing its Lebanese camps to become armed bastions of the Palestine Liberation Organization. Forced to investigate when Reagan threatened to withhold U.S. funding for the organization, UNRWA admitted that several camps indeed had been militarized. While the Security Council hasn’t enforced 1208 in the Palestinian territories, it has applied pressure on militant Palestinian refugees elsewhere.[26]
January 17th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Where is Greenfly?
Hamas caught using white phosporus. Isn’t that a war crime?
January 17th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
“Where is Greenfly?”
The ‘Global Peace and Justice’ rentademo is causing traffic jams in Mt Wellington at the moment. I imagine most of the pro terrorist commies cha, heman and spoff are getting some exercise there at the moment
January 17th, 2009 at 5:15 pm
The Arab nations have resources to match the US. Why do they not support the Palestinians as the US does Israel?
There are economic limits to what the the US and Israel can do, and major conflicts weaken them.
January 17th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Banana I was giving your comment further thought as I was hanging out my washing. I used to use ‘thinking grenades’ like Family Guy’s Peter Griffen but found the neighbours started complaining. Wimps.
Anyhoo, my tentative conclusions are that you’re absolutely right, the line is definitely blurring. Militarily I’d still give it to the US based on its total overall position in Land, Sea, Air, Electronic warfare, Space and intelligence gathering capabilities. The PNAC document detailed that the necessary posture was to provide the necessary strength to allow the US to fight two major wars against any two of its next-largest adversaries and still allow enough residual strength to allow it to cope with a significant regional involvement. That was the objective and that’s why they were strong on defence spending, which I personally agree with. About the only thing I agree with, I might add.
However, a superpower is also defined economically and the US, looking ahead, is seriously lacking in that respect which will have significant flow-on effect to the military posture in the medium to long term.
I think a lot of people seriously underestimate the Russian abilities, such people seem to be stuck in a 50’s time warp dominated by cold war propaganda. The reality of it is and always has been that the Russian hardware has always been extremely functional. Possibly it lacks air-conditioning but it gets the job done, effectively and that’s what counts. Significantly, this approach also applies to its soldiery. It’s generals and other-ranks leadership is the most effective in the world. Overall, they could do like a dinner most US generals, anytime.
The US have come to rely too heavily upon overwhelming firepower and the obvious danger to that is that when you come up against an adversary who is as equally capable as you are of taking out the electro-magnetic spectrum and introducing error margins into GPS sats and whatever else it is they rely on, your firepower options instantly disappear and if that’s the only thing you have come to rely on, you are fucked, immediately. That is no doubt why the US is so focused on maintaining its superiority in space, so that it can control those elements. My big worry is, that if it loses that control, it has left itself no fall-back option.
My understanding of this field however is very limited and superficial and I’d love to understand more about it or be corrected of any misconceptions that I currently hold.
January 17th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
Sonny,
Hamas, Syria and Iran tried to rally the support of all Arab nations yesterday in Qatar.
Saudi and Egypt were notable by their absence.
January 17th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
Totally agree about the fact there are economic limits Sonny. However for the last 8 years those limitations have been essentially ignored since the WH has been controlled by a faction that has been prepared to give Israel almost but not quite, whatever it wants or needs regardless of whether or not that was in the best interests of the US.
That era comes to an end this month, to a certain extent. US politics however remains and will remain for the foreseeable future, replete with people at all levels whose thinking runs in approximately the same direction, if not as fervently.
The Arab nations together have the economic resources but not the military resources, to compete against the US. In addition, for decades the US has pursued close relationships with many of those nations, for many reasons.
The worry is, that if the US suffers a major downturn in its ability to continue those relationships, other powers move in, and that places Israel into a much more dangerous position than it is now.
January 17th, 2009 at 5:41 pm
Well i think you are very much correct in what you say but i would like to draw attention to your comment on space, the American DoD has stated that it must control space to protect future investment and capital, this was put on hold during the 70’s ( and so was further space exploration ) but it has finally begun to warm up, the potential for first strike capability’s from space certainly put into question the relevance of conventional forces and armament.
Now dose the U.S really hold Technical and numerical superiority in this field? in my opinion Logistically they are hamstrung, no manned space flights and a number of catastrophic missile launch failures, so they now have to rely on other country’s to provide them logistical capability, this to me is a major flaw in their claim to superiority and ownership of space so that alone puts in question their claim to sole remaining superpower.
I also really like your explanation of a doctrine towards overwhelming firepower, it’s a reason why ICBM shields are looked at as a first strike capability rather than a deterrent as it gives a significant advantage towards those in possession of them.
January 17th, 2009 at 5:54 pm
The worry is, that if the US suffers a major downturn in its ability to continue those relationships, other powers move in, and that places Israel into a much more dangerous position than it is now.
And one of those powers, Iran, has New Zealand mentioned as a target in its strategic plan for the defeat of anglo-saxon culture as given by Ahmadenijad’s chief strategic advisor.
January 17th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Hamas, Syria and Iran tried to rally the support of all Arab nations yesterday in Qatar.
Saudi and Egypt were notable by their absence.
Hamas has lost the support of their Arab allies but not the western media.
January 17th, 2009 at 6:17 pm
And even the Palestinian people Sonny
January 17th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
Banana, space is not just about launch vehicle reliability but with respect to just that aspect alone, if the US is hamstrung then the rest of the world: Russia, Japan, China, EU are all either in wheelchairs or strung up in a bed in full-body plaster, comparatively speaking.
The shuttle does a lot of classified missions = defence stuff and not all of those are simple spy satellites with passive systems. SDI (a.k.a. “star-wars” to the reef-fish) no doubt produced a lot of useful research alongside its main purpose of being the last straw that broke the USSR’s economic back. That was 30 years ago.
The Chinese in the 90’s had to steal from the US both the legacy codes to get the neutron bomb and metallurgy secrets to stop their MIRV warheads from breaking up in the atmosphere. That’s how far behind they were in the 90’s. They will catch up rather quickly, I fear, however. Especially as this economic restructuring works its way through the system.
The Russians are probably technically ahead of the Chinese but they have been economically hamstrung throughout the 90’s and are just now recovering. I would not be at all surprised to see a ‘great leap forward’ if the Russians and the Chinese pooled their resources and geopolitically their relationship has been growing in leaps and bounds in the last decade. That must be a huge worry to the US.
The EU of course are as usual, confused and divided and therefore no threat whatsover at present. However if for some reason in future they decided to join one side or the other, my money would be that they would choose the Russian-Chinese alliance.
It’s a highly classified area obviously, so this is all speculation. However I do tend to intuitively feel that the US is technologically 20-50 years ahead of any other nation, at the mo. The question is, how rapidly will that lead erode as we proceed through these next 10-15 years.
In terms of first-strike capability from space, I don’t really see that as being the be-all and end-all of the space militarisation program but I don’t think you were saying that anyway. I see space militarisation as involving missile defence (taking out incoming missiles prior to MIRV deployment), anti-satellite weapons (critical to deal with enemy navigation and comms satellites), delivering atmospheric EMP when and where necessary, hosting laser systems for all purposes: comms and hardware destruction, and of course, facilitating secure communications and surveillance. I imagine there are a hundred and one other uses to which they’re put as well.
January 17th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
Well to get a good idea where the Russians are you can look at the Topol M, S-400 and the Glonas system, i’ll have to think about your reply for a while, damm you for getting my brain ticking, it was happy drinking coke and blowing bubbles.
January 17th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
Whether you really regard that as a real threat depends, IMO Sonny, on whether you swallow without question the MSM propaganda you’ve been fed for years re: Iran, as detailed in one of the paras in my 2:07 post.
BTW, to both you and SR, why is it surprising to either of you that two very close US allies: Egypt and Saudi Arabia; didn’t turn up in Qatar. Secondly, in relation to a wider issue: Do either of you hold any curiosity toward looking into, or have you ever looked into, the issues regarding the connections between (a) the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt and connections between them and al-Qa’ida; and (b) the 911 hijackers and Saudi Arabia? It’s just, have you ever found it curious that the hijackers were mostly Saudi citizens and yet the US invaded Iraq instead?
I’m not suggesting anything in particular, really I’m not, I’m just wondering if you’ve ever stirred yourself to look into those connections. If you ever do, it sheds a lot of light on ME issues.
January 17th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
All I know is the Saudi’s are from a very extreme sect of Islam and that they fund a rewritten version of the Koran which is widely distributed in countries like Egypt.
I’ll leave you to make the connection between the Brotherhood and the Royal Family.
January 17th, 2009 at 7:48 pm
“Egypt and Saudi Arabia; didn’t turn up in Qatar”
couldn’t afford the gas
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7834829.stm
January 17th, 2009 at 7:57 pm
There isn’t one, SR, as far as I know. That wasn’t what I was suggesting. My knowledge is very limited but as I understand it, the Saudi Royal Family aren’t seen as particularly legitimate rulers of that particular Kingdom.
I’m not taking just OBL’s word for that of course, that would be particularly stupid, wouldn’t it. No, as I understand it, the nepotism widely practiced in Saudi is not looked upon favourably throughout the ME Muslim community, as is the close connection the Royal Family have with what they see as the anti-Islam policies of what they call ‘the great satan.’
Would be laughable would it not, were it not, true.
The Power of Nightmares video has a good history of the Muslim Brotherhood. If you haven’t seen it on google, you really should, if you’re interested in this subject.
January 17th, 2009 at 8:12 pm
Wahhabism (Arabic: Al-Wahhābīyya الوهابية) or Wahabism is a conservative form of Sunni Islam attributed to Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab, an 18th century scholar from what is today known as Saudi Arabia, who advocated a return to the practices of the first three generations of Islamic history.
Wahhabism is the dominant form of Islam in Saudi Arabia,[1] and is also popular in Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates. It is often referred to as a “sect”[1] or “branch”[2] of Islam, though both its supporters and its opponents[3] reject such designations. It has developed considerable influence in the Muslim world through the funding of mosques, schools and other means from Persian Gulf oil wealth
January 17th, 2009 at 8:15 pm
Ibn Taymiyya was the first holy leader who interpreted jihad as a “holy war.”
He took two verses from the Quran and interpreted them to mean total and ceaseless war against anyone who was in the way of the destiny of Islam.
January 17th, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Thanks SR, for reminding me of the Wahhabi sect. Now correct me if I’m wrong, but this is the origins of the MB is it not?
Edit: How are the Wahhabis connected to the Saudi Royal Family?
January 17th, 2009 at 8:29 pm
We are getting a bit off topic but i have given some thought to what you have said, Reid.
It would seem at first glance Delivery capability dose not equate to much but really it is a huge advantage and a reason why Russia has already picked up ground lost against the Americans, now think about this.
What did the MIR really achieve in it’s life time? consider the amount of time the Americans could spend in space using shuttles compared to the Russians who had their own space station, the amount of research undertaken was considerably more cost efficient than the American governments. When American was investing time and expertise into the field of getting a space shuttle of the ground the Russians where investing it into refining delivery systems and logistical capability.
Yes they may have been broke but they where still able to maintain a high level of expertise and research by using a more cost effective solution, this is also another reason why they did not want the MIR scrapped, and why you will find America is now forced to use Russian expertise and equipment for the I.S.S because they have a lesser expertise in that field, i would go so far as to say it is America who is in a wheelchair when it comes to this side of things.
As for first strike from space, it is quite simply massive with unfathomable potential, anything you can think off could very well be possible so long as you can overcome the logistical and scientific problems involved, really to try and debate the matter is stupid of me because i have no idea what on earth is achievable or what is being thought up.
Now i strongly suspect the recent posturing from the big three is causing a second space race to begin, China has a long way to go in terms of expertise but with 1 billion + people i expect that gap to be overcome rapidly.
So my conclusion is that unless America can make substantial claims on the ownership of space then it is not the only superpower and it is now waking up to the uncomfortable reality that it has to depend on other nations to keep it’s position in the world, not just in space, but economically, militarily and technologically.
I’m honestly afraid that this will cause American government to become increasingly stupid and crazy ( more of the Mad Man doctrine from Kissinger ) the more they realize that their grasp on the world is slipping away from them, i expect alot more conflict to erupt among those who are Client states of the U.S and are in a position of being a regional superpower, as we can see with Iran and Israel and even with Australia in our region of the world ( New Guinea is a good example )
January 17th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
Banana, re: the MIR and time in space. I agree this is superior to anything the US has, but in terms of space militarisation, how does this help, specifically? For military applications in space, most if not all of the research, design, build occurs on Earth, does it not?
I’m not too sure where the delivery system superiority discussion is going – I kinda look at it like: all sides (except Ariadne) are reasonably reliable so that’s the end of that, militarisation-wise anyway. Sure, the instant a hot war breaks out, you will see any number of launch vehicles heading into space, but that’s more a function of readiness and numbers, less of reliability. Unless of course you’re talking about laser-take-down of the launch vehicles, in which case that depends on such laser systems already operating in space. I fail to see the tactical advantage of having the most reliable launch vehicle once you reach a certain minimum point of reliability which all nations except the EU have reached. What am I missing here?
Both first strike and retaliation potential is strategically vital which is precisely why Russia objects to the ABM systems the US wants to place into Eastern Europe. However until and if that happens, all nations that wish to, already have that capability through land-based systems, so I don’t really see that in 2009, a space-based first strike system would be specifically a huge advantage in and of itself. That may change in future of course. You also need to think about the enormous political difficulties that would ensue were a nation to install such a system in space. Who knows, it may well already be there, but since an ICBM is currently to my knowledge mostly unstoppable anyway, why would any nation go to all that expense and political risk just to do this? What’s the cost/benefit?
Re: your last three paras: we’re living in interesting times, Banana. Buckle your seat-belt and hold on. Things could get pretty bumpy.
January 17th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
I fail to see the tactical advantage of having the most reliable launch vehicle once you reach a certain minimum point of reliability which all nations except the EU have reached. What am I missing here?
Numbers Game, if you can put more of something into an area more reliably than your opponent then you can afford to loose more and spend less.
January 17th, 2009 at 9:02 pm
The history of the Al Saud has been marked by a desire to unify the Arabian Peninsula and to spread what it promotes as a more purified and simple, though often criticized as less tolerant, view of Islam embodied by Wahhabism which has gained international controversy since the events of 9/11. The House of Saud is linked with (Hanbali) Wahhabism (Saudis deprecate the term, preferring the term Salafism) through the marriage of the son of Muhammad ibn Saud with the daughter of Muhammad Abd al Wahhab in 1744.
January 17th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
American efforts to combat this contagion are hamstrung by the fact that its ideological and financial epicenter is Saudi Arabia, where an ostensibly pro-Western royal family governs through a centuries-old alliance with the fanatical Wahhabi Islamic sect. In addition to indoctrinating its own citizens with this extremist creed, the Saudi government has lavishly financed the propagation of Wahhabism throughout the world, sweeping away moderate interpretations of Islam even within the borders of the United States itself.
January 17th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
I went to a prestentation by an Eyptian Professor who had very strong views about the Saudis financing their version of the Koran and providing it for free throughout the ME. Of course as most people are poor in the ME guess which verion is #1.
He detailed some of the major differences between it and the standard Koran (think King James bible). I can’t remember the exact points but apparently the Koran has a large number of passages that balance each other out. For example could be something like “all Jews are infidels” and the next section “but they are brothers of the book and should be left alone”.
Guess what happens when the Saudi sponsored version removes all the balancing statements? A one way book of jihad and obviously ideal for ultra fundamentalist groups like the Brotherhood.
January 17th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Seems strange though why on one hand they won’t support Hamas and a pro-western yet on the other they promote a very anti-western version of the Koran.
January 17th, 2009 at 9:46 pm
That’s very very interesting SR, thank you.
Especially this. It’s a very strange juxtaposition isn’t it.
January 18th, 2009 at 4:56 am
reid, just watched a documentary on the lead up and aftermath of the events of 7/7 in London.
Had already seen the same thing in detail on the Madrid rail bombings.
Watch the video and report on London 7/7 and tell me that the Fanatics are your mates.
Have a look at some of the Footage on Whaleoil’s site of how Hamas exterminated Fatah followers.
Then read about Hezbollah’s promises on Israeli eradication, and terror on all things Israeli around the World.
Think it easily explains the IDF perceived ‘over-reaction’. When your back is against the wall/sea.
When all you face is threats of death from your neighbours, no matter what you do.
Excuse me but, until you wake up to the fact that ‘THEY’ hate us all. Until NZ gets a dose of what other Western Nations or Partners have had to endure. (and probably will again.)
The Fanatics want to hurt and take away our way of life. Sure lets negotiate. Sure lets parlez.
Frankly they will never listen.
Death becomes them.
January 18th, 2009 at 9:55 am
I know they’re bastards, and I know they hate us, Glutaemus. That changes nothing about what I’ve said on all these threads. As I said above:
Criticising Israeli tactics does not equate to support for Israel’s enemies. It’s not an either/or. Interpreting it as such, is logically wrong.
This is why.
Israel’s strategy is not working. I’ve shown why, above. Therefore, it should try something else. I’ve said what, above.
What about that, supports Israel’s enemies?
Can you give us a link to that video you’re referring to?
January 18th, 2009 at 11:17 am
It is on Whaleoils site.
Truly shocking.