General Debate 16 October 2009 Add this story to Scoopit!.

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135 Responses to “General Debate 16 October 2009”

  1. Inventory2 (7,224) Says:

    Where’s Akaroa this morning? Gottim!

  2. mickysavage (770) Says:

    Guess who said this?

    “The legislative process has been rushed and inadequate given this bill’s complexity and significance. The public has not had adequate time to examine and submit on the bill, and it is evitable that serious mistakes will be made that will adversely affect New Zealanders.”

    From the National minority report on the report back of the bill establishing the ETS.

    Hypocrites.

  3. village idiot (748) Says:

    Does he have snake eyes? Forked-tongue? Lizard breath? I think I know it!

  4. village idiot (748) Says:

    Inventory2 – Banks Peninsula.

  5. dad4justice (7,339) Says:

    Shit it’s raining again and me lawns are eight foot high, but the gummint fools said global warming will burn off my grass so I won’t get the lawnmower fixed just yet.

  6. Inventory2 (7,224) Says:

    That global warming eh Dad! D’ya know, it’s been so “globally warm” this winter that Turoa skifield STILL has a snow-base of 3 metres as of this very morning? Sheesh, imagine how much snow they would have had if it had been a COLD winter!!!!!

  7. Pete George (12,310) Says:

    It’s not that simple d4j. When the climate warms up (whatever the cause!) it can result in all sorts of variations – some places drier, some wetter (increased evaporation so more rain), some ice will melt, but some glaciers could grow due to increased snow. So it doesn’t matter what the weather changes to, it could mean anything you want it to.

  8. Inventory2 (7,224) Says:

    Indeed Pete – and it’s not as if the climate hasn’t been changing throughout the millenia – which must cast doubt of the claims that climate change is man-made.

  9. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    Who to believe?

    http://royalsociety.org/page.asp?id=6229
    http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/press_releases/monckton-response-to-gore-errors.pdf
    http://www.middlebury.net/op-ed/global-warming-01.html
    http://www.tech-know.eu/NISubmission/pdf/UK_Submission.pdf
    http://www.climaterealists.org.nz/node/1
    http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/originals/climate_money.pdf

  10. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    who to believe?
    http://joannenova.com.au/globalwarming/the_skeptics_handbook_2-3_lq.pdf
    http://scienceahttp://joannenova.com.au/globalwarming/the_skeptics_handbook_2-3_lq.pdfndpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/originals/climate_money.pdf

    this lass certainly thinks there is something going on?

  11. Razork (372) Says:

    Thought of the Day

    It is time to stop comparing Obama with Hitler. Hitler got the Olympics for Berlin

  12. Pete George (12,310) Says:

    “which must cast doubt of the claims that climate change is man-made.”

    ??
    Everyone knows that the climate keeps changing, that has nothing to do with how much affect (from stuff all to significant) humans have on it now.

  13. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    Very good Razork.

  14. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    Pete
    Someone sent me an email with lovely little pictures of the planets and the sun relative in size to each other last eyar.
    It was a great email, I’ll look for an url.
    The thing that blew me away as I hadn’t realised the size relationship was how much bigger the sun is to us.
    The fact that if we were a little closer or further away we couldn’t support life as we know it because of being too hot or too cold wasn’t lost on me when the email writer followed up to my questions.
    So I am a little skeptical that we can have that much play over the sun’s influence.

  15. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    I was interested in the submissions from activists about the search without warrants the new surveillance laws appear to give. No judicial overview before the fact is a worrying trend.
    I realise that time is of the essense but it leaves a question mark in my mind.

    I am very wary of our Police as I don’t think they have a good history.

    Just this morning on the front page of the Dompost they have a woman who went into a Police station to get help as she was drunk asking them to ring her husband to collect her. They promptly arrested her and charged her.
    This was from someone who was making a cry for help.

    That very thing happened to me too and we phoned the family and they came and picked them up, in fact it has happened several times. In that case we kept the car overnight in the back of the nick and they came the next morning to collect it.
    Its called common sense and is probably as important as a detailed knowledge of the law to a police officer.

    What’s worrying about this is the implication that this isn’t just a single officer with a common sense problem but their line manager and snrs incl the crown prosecution office.
    Not knowing all the facts except those that have been presented in the Dompost I realise I may be off base here, but it don’t show NZPolice and Crown Prosecution up in a good light at all.

    Where is Greg (Police Assn) when you want him?

  16. Pete George (12,310) Says:

    Mike, if you have a lounge with big windows facing the sun the sun will warm up your room. How much it warms up your room depends on things like:
    - if you have a roof
    - if you have ceiling insulation
    - if you have double glazing
    - if you have draughts
    - how much it cools at night
    - if you have a fire going
    - if you have under floor heating

    The earth could be seen as a great big living room.

  17. Leg Break (88) Says:

    Berlin won the bid to host the Games over Barcelona, Spain on April 26, 1931, at the 29th IOC Session in Barcelona (two years before the Nazis came to power).

  18. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    I like the picture of a warm lounge right now in windy wet Wellington :-)

  19. philu (10,919) Says:

    http://whoar.co.nz/2009/without-drastic-co2-cuts-immediately-the-world-faces-a-massive-oh-shit-moment/

    “..A frightening new climate change study says the United States must eliminate its enormous rate of carbon emission within ten years..

    ..They say that everyone who finally gets it about climate change has an “Oh, shit” moment —

    – an instant when the full scientific implications become clear ..

    .. and they suddenly realize what a horrifically dangerous situation humanity has created for itself.

    Listening to the speeches, ground-breaking in their way, that President Obama and Chinese President Hu Jintao delivered September 22 at the UN Summit on Climate Change..

    .. I was reminded of my most recent “Oh, shit” moment.

    It came in July, courtesy of the chief climate adviser to the German government. Hans Joachim Schellnhuber, chair of an advisory council known by its German acronym, WBGU, is a physicist whose specialty, fittingly enough, is chaos theory.

    Speaking to an invitation-only conference at New Mexico’s Santa Fe Institute, Schellnhuber divulged the findings of a study so new he had not yet briefed Chancellor Angela Merkel about it.

    The study, Solving the Climate Dilemma: The Budget Approach, has now been published here.

    If its conclusions are correct — and Schellnhuber ranks among the world’s half-dozen most eminent climate scientists —

    – it has monumental implications for the pivotal meeting in December in Copenhagen ..

    .. where world leaders will try to agree on reversing global warming.

    Schellnhuber and his WBGU colleagues go a giant step beyond the findings of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change..

    .. the UN body whose scientific reports are constrained because the world’s governments must approve their contents.

    The IPCC says that by 2020 rich industrial countries must cut emissions 25 to 40 percent (compared with 1990) if the world is to have a fair chance of avoiding catastrophic climate change.

    By contrast, the WBGU study says the United States must cut emissions 100 percent by 2020 — in other words..

    .. quit carbon entirely within ten years.

    Germany and other industrial nations must do the same by 2025 to 2030.

    China only has until 2035, and the world as a whole must be carbon free by 2050.

    The study adds that big polluters can delay their day of reckoning by “buying” emissions rights from developing countries ..

    .. a step the study estimates would extend some countries’ deadlines by a decade or so.

    Needless to say ..

    .. this timetable is light-years more demanding than what the world’s major governments are talking about in the run-up to Copenhagen..”

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

    (gee..!..who to believe..?..someone who ‘ranks among the world’s half-dozen most eminent climate scientists’..

    or d4j..?

    it’s a hard call..!

    .eh..?)

  20. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    Phil
    All I do is give you negative Karma, I don’t read you as you behave like a twat, you automatically get a red one.
    I suspect others do the same as me.

  21. lofty (1,199) Says:

    ummm…DPF is in BIG BIG trouble with Cactus Kate.

    David, I personally think you intel gathering, every conspiracy organisation requires spies.

    Who would of thought that Cactus could be duped by your cunning strategy

  22. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    David
    Keep digging for the dirt.
    I have an old 80′s microphone somewhere that you could bug the ladies bogs with at the Green Parrot.
    It would be interesting to know what they really think in the Green party.

    Only ate there once, it was crap.
    Sad thing was we went after reading it was Winston’s favourite haunt, so thought the steaks would be good.
    They were shit and the service shitter.

  23. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    Apologies to all, didn’t see the poor link I gave earlier.
    http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/images/stories/papers/originals/climate_money.pdf

  24. village idiot (748) Says:

    Enormously encouraging to see D4j has adopted PhilU’s lawn management methods!

    There’s hope for the world yet!

  25. philu (10,919) Says:

    gee mike nz..

    you too are so much like garth george..!

    another little bundle of irrational prejudices..eh..?

    and proud of your ignorances/narrow vision..

    (and those neg-karmas..eh..?

    like cuts from a knife ..eh..?

    i mean..do you seriously think i give a flying fuck about neg-karmas..?

    sail on sailor..!

    eh..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  26. LUCY (359) Says:

    MikeNZ (228) 2 0 Says:

    October 16th, 2009 at 9:17 am
    Just this morning on the front page of the Dompost they have a woman who went into a Police station to get help as she “was drunk asking them to ring her husband to collect her. They promptly arrested her and charged her.
    This was from someone who was making a cry for help.”

    Is this an example of the ‘discretion’ that the police can use when applying the law? The discretion that John Key et al say the police have? Or do the ‘discretionary powers’ of the police only apply to those laws that the polies of the day deem worthy eg the smacking law?

  27. stephen (4,058) Says:

    So I am a little skeptical that we can have that much play over the sun’s influence.

    Nuke it.

  28. stephen (4,058) Says:

    Is this an example of the ‘discretion’ that the police can use when applying the law?

    That’s why I don’t really like ‘discretion’ – presumably a government could, if it wanted, instruct different levels of discretion according to their own preferences – a dangerous path to go down, IMHO.

  29. starboard (2,447) Says:

    your a retard and waste of space philwhore..you writings are gobble-de-gook…its like reading the rantings of a mentally unwell junkie ex criminal armed robber…oh wait…

  30. philu (10,919) Says:

    no bird pic today..?

    let this be your methadone..

    http://whoar.co.nz/2009/9-weirdest-looking-animals-you-didnt-know-existed-photos/

    (but not for you mike nz..!..just a neg-karma from you plse..?)

    ..From newly-discovered deep sea crustaceans .. to rodent-resembling primates ..

    .. nature has brought us some outright weird-looking creatures.

    Check out these animals that just seem out-of-this world..”

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  31. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    Lucy, my wife made the very same point which I hadn’t seen at the time.
    It does make you think, as I made the very same point in my original submission to the select committee on SEC 59.

    I will not be voting for National whilst they make me a criminal for giving my kids a smack if they need one.
    They have alienated me by deciding it’s ok to fuck with my family because they won’t deal to the real culprits because they are brown and victims of the naughty colonial white man.

    This is poor and lazy thinking and racist as it says ” you poor poor brown people you can’t help yourselves, so we won’t expect you to act like all the other people in society”.
    There said it haven’t I? 112 MP’s are racist thinkers.

  32. LUCY (359) Says:

    Exactly Stephen. It is a slippery slope when Laws can be applied selectively. A law should be written clearly enough for most people to understand, should mean what it says and be applied to everyone.

    The fact that our polies are telling us that ‘laws dont really mean exactly what they say and can be applied in some instances and not others’ is very very dangerous.

  33. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    Stephen
    and that’s the point, the discretion will change when we have more pink people than Key next in power.
    Can you imagine the Lucy Lawless ideologues when the worm turns.

    Lucy
    It is not dangerous, it is absolutely wrong and goes directly to competency of the MP’s

  34. stephen (4,058) Says:

    and that’s the point, the discretion will change when we have more pink people than Key next in power.

    ‘pink’ or ‘tough on crime’, I think it there’s room in all sorts of sectors (electoral law is another perhaps) for all sorts of political parties to screw us.

  35. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    Lucy
    Under the Child Discipline Post I’ve posted the youtube links to Key and the Q/A at the family first conference when he said the PI’s and Maori leaders begged him to leave the law as it was as their people bashed their kids and wouldn’t stop.
    Utter lazy thinking by him and reverse liberal racism.

  36. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    Stephen
    thank you for the correction, you are correct.
    the issue is the way law should be written.

  37. Repton (769) Says:

    @MikeNZ:

    So I am a little skeptical that we can have that much play over the sun’s influence.

    This is from memory so I could be wrong, but:

    IIRC, the earth receives about 1300W per square metre from the sun. This varies on a 12 year cycle, but it varies very little (a few watts per m2) and has been very reliable and predictable as long as we’ve had satellites measuring it.

    I think it’s thought that the sun can also trigger cloud formation, but clouds are still poorly understood. Mind you, it’s also believed that the warming effect of clouds (trapping heat from the earth) exceeds their cooling effect (blocking heat from the sun).

  38. s.russell (1,102) Says:

    So I am a little skeptical that we can have that much play over the sun’s influence.

    I think the point that was intended in the original email about the narrow band in which human life is possibel vis-a-vis the Earth’s distance from the sun, was that small changes (in for example the CO2 content of the atmosphere) can actually have very large effects.

  39. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    Repton
    I marvel at the interdependency of living systems. I well remember History, Human Bio and Geography A levels many moons ago and looking at the different eco systems in the rain forest esp at the differing height levels and also on the seashore and tidal levels with wetlands.
    let alone the chemistry of the many different thousands of simultaneous reactions and enzymes going on both autonomous and otherwise per second all over the body.

    It was a magnificent intro to the complexity of life so the interdependency of the ocean temperature and cloud formation and land mass cooling and all the other factors involved doesn’t surprise me.

    My point is the Sun is so massive and for us to affect its effects is a long call in my mind.

  40. Manolo (6,108) Says:

    It could be the end of ACT if Rodney Hide bows to political pressure from National and supports the raft of tax increases in the ACC legislation. The Tories bought the Maori Party by giving MTV the rugby broadcasting rights.

    Time to show how true to its word the ACT party is, don’t you think?

    [DPF: You don't understand how the law works. A law change is not needed to set levies. If the law is not changed to remove some of the "entitlements", then this will not stop levies going up. It will mean they will increase by an even greater amount]

  41. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    No that wasn’t what the original email was about SR.

  42. philu (10,919) Says:

    shit mikenz..!

    yr a full-blown racist as well..!

    eh..?

    quite ‘the package’..aren’t you..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  43. side show bob (3,646) Says:

    Some of Philu’s hairy arsed mates have been down this way indulging in a bit of vandalism. The heroes from Greenpeace painted “Fonterra climate crime” on an Indonesian ship in port at New Plymouth, the ship was delivering PKE. The 7 arseholes have applied to have their cases transferred to Auckland and if successful will be pleading guilty there. Seems they don’t like the hospitality of the New Plymouth courts, I hope the pricks get to enjoy some more hospitality from our prison population.

  44. stephen (4,058) Says:

    It could be the end of ACT if Rodney Hide bows to political pressure from National and supports the raft of tax increases in the ACC legislation.

    They’re just making a fuss about how they AREN’T going to support that – Hide was on TV this morning talking about it, why do you think they might cave and support it?

  45. LUCY (359) Says:

    MikeNZ Said “Lucy
    It is not dangerous, it is absolutely wrong and goes directly to competency of the MP’s”

    I agree it is wrong and does go directly to the competency of the MPs but I still believe it is also dangerous as it sets a precident for sloppy laws and selective administration of those laws.

    Havent we just had a government who set themselves above the laws of the country? It either wasnt ‘in the public interest’ to prosecute eg paintergate or the law was changed retrospectively to protect those who broke it eg election overspend.

    Now we have a government who is in effect saying well it doesnt actually matter what the law says we will tell you how and when to apply it. That is dangerous.

    We now have two sucsecutive governments playing loose and free with the laws of the land. The first one ignoring or changing them. The second condoning bad (or badly written) laws to suit their political purposes.

  46. stephen (4,058) Says:

    My point is the Sun is so massive and for us to affect its effects is a long call in my mind.

    My point would be that no scientists sit around thinking what is or is not plausible and make decisions based on that – they measure, they hypothesise, they experiment. The sun’s ‘ouputs’ are measurable, so they can go from there…

  47. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    Stephen
    scientists who get their salaries paid by people who want to control the conversation.

    Lucy
    as usual you are completely correct
    I hadn’t thought through what a load of wankers we actually have in parliament right now.
    It is sad isn’t it.
    How do we weed out the plonkers like Key in the first place?

    sorry got to pay the bills
    have a great day

  48. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    Stephen
    http://aefweb.info/
    enjoy.
    bye

  49. Pete George (12,310) Says:

    re Mike’s link in the above post:

    The Australian Environment Foundation is a front group founded by the Institute of Public Affairs (IPA), a conservative Melbourne-based think tank.

    The director of the environment unit of the IPA, Jennifer Marohasy (her biographical note on the IPA website described her as “a ‘global warming sceptic’” )was the founding Chairwoman and is listed as a Director in the organisation’s documents with the Australian Securities and Investment Commission (ASIC). Mahorasy is also the listed registrant of the group’s website, although the address and phone number for the website registration are identical to the address and phone number for the Victorian office of the logging industry front group, Timber Communities Australia.

    http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Australian_Environment_Foundation
    http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Institute_of_Public_Affairs
    http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Jennifer_Marohasy

  50. Pete George (12,310) Says:

    When someone labels themselves a ‘global warming sceptic’ it suggests to me they have made up their mind to take once side in an argument. That seems to be more political than scientific – wouldn’t anyone genuinely interested in the issue (rather than just wanting to oppose) explore the pros and cons?

  51. side show bob (3,646) Says:

    Works both ways Pete and as far as I can see the AGW lovers are firmly on the back foot.

  52. stephen (4,058) Says:

    With that kind of ‘blog science’ they can’t fail.

  53. pentwig (240) Says:

    Pete George

    Have read the pros and the cons and for me the cons wins.

    The only benefactor of any sort of climax tax is Goldman Sachs and the UN.

    Only the gullible have fallen for it, ie 5% of the population. What does that tell you.

  54. Sarkozygroupie (184) Says:

    I asked this once before but never got around to checking for a reply – whatever happened to Sonic (Chronic)? Did he go back to Scotland or has he reinvented himself?

  55. Tim Ellis (253) Says:

    Interesting post here at http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/2969138/Public-service-chiefs-cashed-in-before-crash

    It appears the labour government authorised five percent pay rises to public sector chief executives every year for five years. A cynic might suggest that this move could be used as a justification by public sector unions to demand five percent annual pay increases for lower level public service staff.

    It seems strange to me that Labour would authorise such a large up rigging of state sector pay so far in advance. Did they not consider that a recession might affect the claims for more pay? I don’t remember hearing about it at the time. What did Labour have to hide?

  56. nickb (2,098) Says:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/wellbeing/2971060/Sex-lives-and-marijuana

    …hey philu… don’t say I don’t do anything for ya…

    eh?

  57. Ryan Sproull (4,703) Says:

    My point is the Sun is so massive and for us to affect its effects is a long call in my mind.

    But… my sunglasses…

  58. Pete George (12,310) Says:

    Works both ways Pete and as far as I can see the AGW lovers are firmly on the back foot.

    Yes, it works both ways. Which AGW lovers are on the back foot? There is a long way to go with the science, but the weight of it is currently strongly leaning towards us causing potential problems.

    Have read the pros and the cons and for me the cons wins.

    Why can’t scientists be so decisive? Did Einstein work like that?

  59. Brian Harmer (615) Says:

    It’s a crap day and where is Chthoniid when you need him? Where’s the Friday picture?

  60. stephen (4,058) Says:

    He’s got a whooooole website full of them Brian: http://chthoniid.zenfolio.com/

  61. getstaffed (7,395) Says:

    Chthoniid is getting up close and [hopefully not too] personal with crocs near Darwin. He’d better be careful. My Fridays would ruined without his regular photo segment

  62. pentwig (240) Says:

    Pete George

    “Why can’t scientists be so decisive? Did Einstein work like that?”

    Read Air Con. Those scientists are certainly decisive.

    Heaven and Earth promises to be equally enlightening.

  63. village idiot (748) Says:

    John Key said this:

    I’ve had nine years of being told what lightbulb I can screw into the house, what shower I can take, what food I can eat, what things I can do, what thoughts I am allowed to have.

    He was lying. Wasn’t he. None of those things are true. Should a prime minister lie like that?

  64. LUCY (359) Says:

    Professor Ian Plimers book heaven and earth has just been delivered to my door.

    Professor Ian Plimer (School of Earth & Environmental Sciences, University of Adelaide
    Emeritus Professor of Earth Sciences University of Melbourne
    Professor and Head University of Melbourne (1991-2005)
    Professor and Head University of Newcastle (1985-1991)
    On the Staff of – Universities of- New England, New South Wales and Macquarie

    Has numerous awards, author of 120 scientific papers and the list goes on and on.

    I look forward to being able to quote on climate change issues from the book in the near future.

    Remind me again what is Al Gores scientific back ground? Oh right he doesnt have one.
    The majority of those employed by the IPCC scientists right? Nope policy wonks!

  65. village idiot (748) Says:

    Perhaps I’m being too harsh. Maybe his wife wears the pants at home and does tell him what lightbulb he can screw into the house (into the house ?) and what food he can eat, what things he can do etc. Is Key pussy-whipped?

    Or a liar?

  66. Ryan Sproull (4,703) Says:

    He was lying. Wasn’t he. None of those things are true. Should a prime minister lie like that?

    Want me to draw you a Venn diagram of the sets “prime ministers” and “politicians”?

  67. gravedodger (1,033) Says:

    Did anyone else enjoy Maitland sitting Chris Pillock on his arse last night and make it look accidental. Is Chris Pillock related to the late not lamented Speaker of the house M W. The way he screamed at the Canty forwards at nearly every breakdown. Then to complete a memorable night of a ref trying to spoil what was a great game of rugby. Passion, physicallity (geez I hate that word) and a full house that could have been a draw if the pillock had asked anyone in the crowd and Berquist had continued his great night of goalkicking. Cripes it looked for all the world a try to me in real time and where was the pathetic assistant ref. H B you wuz robbed and I hope for Pillocks sake his safety and freedom of travel in H B in future your team doesn’t miss out on a finals spot.

  68. village idiot (748) Says:

    Ryan – please! Haven’t seen one of those since my school days. Is it a pretty picture? Are there subsets and super sets? Intersects? Does it help me understand whether I should be concerned by a prime minister who lies to us?

    I think I am.

  69. Adolf Fiinkensein (2,151) Says:

    Do the ghouls in the media seriously think ANYONE is interested in a live commentary (for fucks sake) from a little girl’s funeral? A little girl who drowned in Bob Harvey’s drain?

  70. Pete George (12,310) Says:

    Ian Plimer – agenda wonk?

    Ian Plimer is a Professor of Mining Geology at the University of Adelaide, South Australia, and Emeritus Professor of Earth Sciences at the University of Melbourne. He is a global warming sceptic and a non-executive director of three mining companies: Ivanhoe Australia, a subsidiary of Bob Friedland’s Ivanhoe Mines, as well as CBH Resources and Kefi Minerals.

    http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Ian_Plimer

    He has been described by columnists at The Australian newspaper as “Australia’s best-known academic geologist and certainly one of the most outspoken” and a “denialist poster-boy”.
    Plimer is listed as an associate of the Institute of Public Affairs,a conservative think tank with close ties to the Liberal Party of Australia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Plimer

  71. stephen (4,058) Says:

    Pete, none of that disqualifies what he says though, does it..?

  72. getstaffed (7,395) Says:

    Pete – So if a leading scientist questions when he considers to be shonky science, the MSM labels them “denialist poster-boy”?!?. Pfffft. And perhaps he is an ‘agenda wonk’ as in, his agenda is to prevent what he sees as intellectual and scientific fraud.

  73. Pete George (12,310) Says:

    No, it doesn’t necessarily disqualify what he says, but Lucy was promoting his scientific (non-climate science) background, it helps to know that he has industry and political connections and that he is known as a climate sceptic and campaigns that way. His book hasn’t escaped criticism either.

    The science is missing from Ian Plimer’s “Heaven and Earth”

    http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2009/04/the_science_is_missing_from_ia.php

    gs, Plimer is not regarded as a leading climate scientist.

  74. Pete George (12,310) Says:

    An astronomer reviews Ian Plimer’s book

    I couldn’t help noticing on page 120 an almost word-for-word reproduction of the abstract from a well-known loony paper entitled “The Sun is a plasma diffuser that sorts atoms by mass”. This paper argues that the sun isn’t composed of 98 per cent hydrogen and helium, as astronomers have confirmed through a century of observation and theory, but is instead similar in composition to a meteorite.

    It is hard to understate the depth of scientific ignorance that the inclusion of this information demonstrates. It is comparable to a biologist claiming that plants obtain energy from magnetism rather than photosynthesis.

    Plimer has done an enormous disservice to science….

    http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2009/05/an_astronomer_reviews_ian_plim.php

  75. Say Goodbye to Hollywood (490) Says:

    I had to have a little cry for Aisling Symes today. I can’t believe how much this has effected me this week. Becoming a parent certainly changes your perspective on life. My daughter is in for an overdose of cuddles tonight when I get home.

  76. starboard (2,447) Says:

    October 16 2007
    A Porirua man has been jailed for life with a 19-year non-parole period for brutally bashing his ex-partner and her boarder to death with a baseball bat.

    ..whoppee-de-do-…19 years for a double murder…and the scum bag piece of shit had just been released from prison…

    but wait..theres more !!…

    Justice Denis Clifford gave Ogle a four-year discount on his non-parole period for his early guilty plea.

    ooohhh…do a double murder..plead guilty and get a discount on your sentence of 4 years !!!!

    What a fantastic justice system we have…Im soooooo proud of it…..
    Leave a Reply

  77. Ryan Sproull (4,703) Says:

    Plimer clearly hasn’t been listening to enough They Might Be Giants.

    ♫ The sun is a mass of incandescent gas,
    ♫ A gigantic nuclear furnace,
    ♫ Where hydrogen is built into helium
    ♫ At a temperature of billions of degrees.

  78. RightNow (3,915) Says:

    Given that it has been proven that the data sets used to create Mann’s ‘hockey stick’ graph were cherry picked (and other studies replicating the hockey stick graph were similarly discredited), I’m firmly of the opinion that AGW proponents are falsifying data and models in order to keep milking the cash cow. I don’t need to hear anything more than ‘the IPCC consensus is’ to know that what follows can’t be trusted.

  79. Pete George (12,310) Says:

    The “hockey stick” has not been discredited. It has been criticised, updated, corroborated and criticised more. It is a part of the ongoing science, not a historical win or loss in a competition.

  80. stephen (4,058) Says:

    Top EU and South Korean trade officials signed a free trade deal Thursday which the EU said could boost trade between the two by €19 billion
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10603555

    Wa-hey, Europe does free trade after all…

  81. Tassman (238) Says:

    Did somebody say Key was an investment specialist?

    Let’s see: the boost to victims’ compensation claims worth thousands of dollars a claim simply gives free insurance to a specific group of people.

    To identify the targeted free riders, the government has already tightened the belts of the socialist wagon and soon the lower end of the population would be struggling to survive. And there the rich with some properties and wealth invested become targets of violence and crime.

    As the rich gets richer, the government gets a vote from its free riders, a payout for its investment in the future votes.

  82. Tassman (238) Says:

    Evoluiton is nothing more than an ideology. It has no scientific basis or conformed to any working correlations other than the changes to suit the political situation of the moment. And thus necessarily, the survival of the fittest has been quantified by a remarkable change in global warming, earthquakes and tsunami have targeted lives in areas populated with lower income families, of course those who are sick, feeble, weak, and burdened with diseases…
    I bet ya Mike Moore didn’t even know that…

  83. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    Lucy
    Just got my heaven and earth too.
    It will be a good read this weekend, hope it’s as good as aircon.

    have a great weekend everyone.

  84. Jack5 (2,486) Says:

    New topic for a minute if don’t mind, folk…

    Who is this turkey Bernard Hickey who seems to be setting himself up as the new Rod Oram, popping up boringly often on TV and radio and in every second cranny of the MSM as a financial guru?

    In his NZ Herald column today (link below) Hickey calls for NZ to “… open up the immigration taps from China and encourage Chinese investors to come here…”

    This after a Chinese seeds company bought a 15 per cent stake in PGG Wrightson. This agribusiness through the bungled deal with Silver Fern and its risky dairy expansion in Uruguay has had to sell the stake to help keep its financial keel upright. One of its most interesting assets is the store of cultivars and seeds built up by a succession of NZ firms over more than a century. These clearly will now be open to the Red Chinese capitalists. Some would class this bank of agricultural genes as an NZ treasure. China brings us nothing in agricultural expertise but will win heavily on this investment.

    What is Hickey’s interest in opening the doors to China? The opportunities for the milliard financial advisers, consultants, immigration operators, housing and property sellers? All great exporters of course.

    Fuck off to Red China yourself Comrade Hickey.

    The link: http://blogs.nzherald.co.nz/blog/show-me-money/2009/10/16/welcome-our-saviours/?c_id=3

  85. Ryan Sproull (4,703) Says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ULdaSrYGLQ

    Nice viral ad.

  86. rimu (47) Says:

    National should be ashamed of the horrible rush that the ETS is being pushed through with. Labour spent months and months consulting on it and it still wasn’t enough for National. Now look at what they turn around and do! http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/stories/2009/10/15/1245cdd1881f

  87. LUCY (359) Says:

    Have read the first chapter MikeNZ. Looking GOOD!!!!

  88. getstaffed (7,395) Says:

    gs, Plimer is not regarded as a leading climate scientist.

    I didn’t call him that. I called him a leading scientist. Notwithstanding, I suspect he knows considerably more about legitimate scientific method that does, say, Al Gore.

  89. philu (10,919) Says:

    does it freak out any of you rightwing free-marketeers..

    that a communist country is the global economic success story..?

    and that your model is rapidly going down the toilet..?

    (just asking..!..eh..?..)

    it really is surprising how many of you still cling to the tattered remnants of the ‘free-market’-chimera..

    it sorta flies in the face of the evidence..eh..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  90. side show bob (3,646) Says:

    Jack5, the dear Mr Hickey was also keen for Fonterra to float shares on the NZX last year. Unfortunately for Mr Hickey and the head arse kickers at Fonterra the farmers did not wish to sale themselves into servitude. I’m all for capitalism but when it comes to my business I don’t want some housewife in Japan cashing in on my hard work. I believe Fonterra and the dear Mr Hickey have now heard this message loud and clear but we must remain vigilant.

  91. Steve (2,169) Says:

    Blowfly said @ 12.05pm:

    “John Key said this:

    I’ve had nine years of being told what lightbulb I can screw into the house, what shower I can take, what food I can eat, what things I can do, what thoughts I am allowed to have.

    He was lying. Wasn’t he. None of those things are true. Should a prime minister lie like that?”

    Maybe it was a lie, but you must have thought the same thoughts without saying.
    John Key may have thoughts on the most effective insect spray to exterminate Blowflies. I have those thoughts … Summer is coming and Blowflies piss me off.

  92. side show bob (3,646) Says:

    And your model Phil……..?

    Let me guess……….?

    Phil the psychopath…..?

    Dispenser of justice and enlightenment……?

    Or just another two bit dictator..eh?

  93. jabba (280) Says:

    fuck me .. I just caught the tanned one (Chris Carter) at the funeral of little Aisling .. now, I maybe being harsh BUT how do we get this fkwit out of our lives?
    I apologise if I am being too political BUT!!!

  94. village idiot (748) Says:

    Steve – thanks for addressing the issue of Key’s lying. It surprised me that few others had the spine to look at it at all.
    Given that Key did lie to the country, to you and I, (5 lies in a single sentence!), what should we think of our prime minister? If he’s a liar, should we trust anything he says? I think not.

  95. Viking2 (6,125) Says:

    Sex lives and marijuana
    AAP
    Last updated 10:55 16/10/2009

    CAUSE AND EFFECT: A new study reveals a connection between cannabis smoking and sexual disfunction.

    Men who regularly smoke cannabis may be prematurely stubbing out their sex lives, Australian research shows.

    Men who smoked pot daily were found to be four times more likely to have trouble reaching orgasm than men who did not inhale, according to the La Trobe University study.

    Other daily male cannabis smokers experienced premature ejaculation at nearly three times the rate of non-smokers.

    Professor Anthony Smith says while the habit often had a significant impact on a man’s sex life, the effects were not always something the smokers would consider a “sexual health problem”.

    “The findings suggest that men are self-medicating with cannabis to delay orgasm,” said Prof Smith from the Melbourne-based university’s Australian Research Centre in Sex, Health and Society.

    “While many male smokers experienced sexual problems, they also reported more partners than non-smokers.

    “Marijuana users were twice as likely to have had two or more sex partners in the previous year than men who didn’t smoke cannabis.”

    The study took in more than 8,600 people, aged 16 to 64, who were surveyed by telephone as part of the Australian Longitudinal Study of Health and Relationships.

    Participants were asked whether they had used cannabis in the previous year and, if yes, their frequency.

    Overall, 8.7 percent said they had used cannabis in the last year, with twice as many men (11.2 percent) in the positive compared to women (6.1 percent).

    People under 36 were more likely to smoke marijuana than older participants.

    The research also found women who smoked cannabis daily were more likely to have had two or more sexual partners in the previous year.

    They were also seven times more likely to have been diagnosed with a sexually transmitted infection in the last year than non-smokers.

    Just saying!

  96. TripeWryter (670) Says:

    Jabba:
    Perhaps you might need to be a bit charitable. Carter might well have had a good reason to be there. Is the area where Aisling lived in his electorate?

    Perhaps he was paying his respects to a family whose of a child was a national drama for a week or so.

  97. dad4justice (7,339) Says:

    Hey VD and phool, oops I mean greenflee etc.. the pretty blonde weather girl on TV3 said she would mow my lawns next week.

  98. village idiot (748) Says:

    Lawns? You’re odder than I thought dad!

  99. Hurf Durf (2,855) Says:

    Razork, you stole my joke! I demand satisfaction! I challenge you to a duel! Leg Break, get a life.

    Wouldn’t it be nice if the Meteorological Office got it right for once? Puts those climate change models in perspective. I love politicised science.

  100. dad4justice (7,339) Says:

    “You’re odder than I thought dad!”

    Talking about an oddity, there once was an insect called greenfly and he got banned for pestering people with utter bullshit.Then it was allowed back as the village idiot and now it is more peculiar, because it lives in a greenie bomb shelter for the deranged tree hugger species of utopian misfits. It is a well known disorder and many learned doctors call it the watermelon disease. Spray that insect and move on it!

  101. Hurf Durf (2,855) Says:

    Phool, you twat, China is more capitalist than the United States. Are you protesting in front of the Chinese embassy about exploitation and the rich-poor gap there? Or do you sit in the front room in your boxers wanking to pictures of 19 year old enviro-communists vandalising ships?

    Gween Party scum need to be dragged into the streets in the middle of the night and shot in the mouth.

  102. dad4justice (7,339) Says:

    Amen to that last line Hurf Durf. The gweens need a lesson in manners and respect. The sick joke has gone on for far too long!

  103. jabba (280) Says:

    tripewryter .. that is true and I was a little worried people would say as you did .. I would never use a sad occasion like that as an attack on someone ( as many have said .. they have children, or in my case grandchildren that age) who is sharing their sorrow BUT I have had enough of the tanned one to last a lifetime, and NO, it’s not because he is gay.

  104. Pete George (12,310) Says:

    Even if it’s trying to be funny that’s nasty stuff Hurf.

  105. Manolo (6,108) Says:

    “..maybe being harsh BUT how do we get this fkwit out of our lives?”

    Deport Peter Kaiser. Carter will follow him. :-)

  106. getstaffed (7,395) Says:

    Has anyone noticed a recent influx of new’ish commenters here recently?

    I think it’s great… and vindication of the idea that news should to be created, consumed and peer reviewed simultaneously. Well done DPF!

  107. philu (10,919) Says:

    so hurf..you won’t want to be on my christmas card list..?

    i take it..?

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  108. jabba (280) Says:

    actung .. I think I have cracked the Redalert comment deletion from Trev .. post comments on Friday nights when he’s putting his shot in Taupo

  109. philu (10,919) Says:

    guess what i just did..?

    i just sat in the drivers’ seat of that wicked pursuit boat from the sea-shepherd..

    (the earth-race boat)..

    the one that is going to be giving the japanese whalers much grief this summer..

    and it is one very cool powerboat…

    (think early batman/gotham city..but cooler..!

    high theatre…)

    i couldn’t help but chuckle..

    when sitting in that drivers’ seat…

    imagining how much fun this baby would be to drive..

    with a suitable soundtrack booming out of the speakers..

    (for the encounters with the japanese..

    can i suggest the soundtrack to battle scenes from kurosawa movies..?

    that would scare the bejeesus out of them..

    eh..?..)

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  110. reid (9,990) Says:

    How big is it phil (feet not metres), and what’s it powered with?

  111. philu (10,919) Says:

    fifty feet..?..

    dunno about the engine..

    but it goes like the clappers..

    so i’m told…

    it has art-deco gull wings and things..

    ..and bulbous bits..

    like i said..

    boat as ‘high theatre’..

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  112. village idiot (748) Says:

    reid – biodiesel. Could run on whale oil I suppose.

  113. reid (9,990) Says:

    50′ is buggar all phil. It apparently houses 8 crew. And you’re a man and you didn’t ask about the engine? Phil, …

    Yeh I know it runs on biodiesel VI, I want to know the horsepower and the handling and such like

  114. village idiot (748) Says:

    Cummins Mercruiser 1080hp

  115. philu (10,919) Says:

    “..50′ is buggar all phil. It apparently houses 8 crew..”

    it is tight inside…

    bordering on claustrophobic..

    but they will have sea shepherd as their mother-ship..

    i’m picking we’ll be getting some good vid from this..

    and nah..!..i like driving things..

    but the eyes glaze over when talk turns to things engine..

    ..so no..i don’t instigate those conversations..

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  116. philu (10,919) Says:

    think batmobile..on the water..

    phil(whoar.co.nz)

  117. dad4justice (7,339) Says:

    I think phool has been smoking strange stuff beamed down by the Battlestar Galactica.
    Batman hates useless lying greenie lazy dreamer sods.

  118. jabba (280) Says:

    philu .. you really do say some dumb arse things BUT you may have noticed that you get plenty of thumbs up when you make comments that are rational .. they maybe anti right but as long as they are fair they are accepted .. if anyone made anti left comments at the std they would be slagged off without mercy ,, that’s the difference with the left and right.
    is that fair?

  119. village idiot (748) Says:

    jabba – read the post above yours and reflect on your question.

  120. dad4justice (7,339) Says:

    Get a sense of humour greenflee you stale odour.

  121. jabba (280) Says:

    VI .. OIC .. sorry, wasn’t concentrating

  122. village idiot (748) Says:

    My lack thereof, dad, is my greatest regret.

  123. dad4justice (7,339) Says:

    You are a pathetic chap Mike.

  124. Luc Hansen (3,377) Says:

    Lucy (and others), you need to lie back and consider the proven consensus of scientists in general and climatologists in particular. I am always amazed that people who rant on about democracy and the right of the majority to have their wishes fulfilled (and I am not suggesting you are one, but if you think smacking referendum and Whanganui/Wanganui, you will see what I mean) then side with what can only be termed the “Fox News type lunatic fringe” on complex issues requiring a great deal of knowledge and study to arrive at a sensible conclusion.

    Here is a link to a University of Chicago 2008 survey

    http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-01/uoia-ssa011609.php

    To save you the effort of tearing you away from your current read for too long, the significant findings are:

    90% of scientists believe the earths temp has risen since pre-1800

    82% of those believe the cause is at least in part human activities, rising to 97% of climate scientists.

    People like Plimer are self-interested mischief makers, in my opinion, often acting for a specific industrial activity identified as a major contributor to the problem.

    The debate is really not about the fact of global warming or its major causes, but rather how to best address the problem.

    You may find this site, set up by Bjorn Lomberg (“The Sceptical Environmentalist”) helpful:

    http://www.copenhagenconsensus.com/CCC%20Home%20Page.aspx

  125. Luc Hansen (3,377) Says:

    An NBR article on ticket scalping

    http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/ticket-scalpers-nzs-unsung-entrepreneurs-113500

    My question is this, why don’t promotors of high demand events sell their public quota tickets via an online auction system, essentially getting their scalping in first, then let the free market take over from there?

    Or is this too much free market for a free market economy to handle?

  126. Hurf Durf (2,855) Says:

    The world will end unless we all reject the industrial revolution and go back to straw huts and nomadic herding, as Mother Gaia intended!

    …Sorry, I was possessed by George Monbiot there for a second.

  127. jabba (280) Says:

    not sure what you mean re my fav subject .. the H .. there isn’t a person on planet earth that will convince me that Wanganui should have a the H included .. if you are suggesting people are focusing on what are considered low priority issues then yes, there are far more important subjects BUT it is important to me.
    My God ,, do a spell check on Wanganui .. it suggests wanking hahaahahah .. put in Whanganui in basic spell check in Microsoft and it suggests Wanganui .. I’m so confused .. could be the Whisky of course

  128. LUCY (359) Says:

    Luc, Luc, Luc. You poor little misguided poppet. There is no proven consensus of scientist on climate change thats a myth.

    Science is not proven by computor modelling, it is proven by hard evidence as found in the history of the earth and the changes to the climate that have happened over time without any help from man. Do the Roman and Medievil warming periods ring a bell? Does the Ice age or the mini Ice age that we have just come out of mean anything to you? Does the fact, witnessed by history, that warming periods have always meant prosperity and growth whereas cooling usually means hardship and famine.

    I realise that you and your little friends egos are so fragile that you cant possibly entertain the idea that man does not control the climate any more that king Canute could turn back the tide. And can you please point me to one serious debate on this issue that resulted in any type of ‘consensus’?

    Poor old carbon dioxide gets a bum rap from you too. Why? it is not a pollutant. The vast majority of CO2 (95%) is over the oceans not the land.

    I could go on and on but the others of this blog will get bored because they, unlike you know what Im on about.

    Night Night.

  129. Herman Poole (297) Says:

    Umm Luc,

    I’m very much in disagreement with anthropogenic climate catastrophe and I agree with those two statements.

    You are so thick.

  130. Pete George (12,310) Says:

    Lucy, Lucy, Lucy, have you been reading too much Plimer? Why did he call his book Heaven and Earth when he is such an outspoken critic of creationism?

    Is there any “proven consensus of scientist” on anything?

    Do you have any hard evidence that humans have had no affect on climate? The fact that climate always varies is irrelevant to the argument apart from making it difficult to determine how much effect humans may have on it.

    Warming periods have not made places like the Sahara more prosperous. Human population densities have never been like they are now – there is far less room to maneuver if some areas become less productive.

    I don’t think anyone will have claimed that man can control the climate. The debate is over significant effect or not.

    Too much of any gas in the wrong place, including CO2, can be a pollutant.

    I’m interested about your claim that 95% of CO2 is over the oceans, which cover about 70% of the earth. Are you referring to on the surface or total atmosphere?

    I’m not sure what you are on about either. Are you claiming that humans have no affect on climate anywhere on earth? Or an insignificant effect on climate? Or that we do have an effect but can’t do anything about it? Or that we could have an effect but shouldn’t bother doing anything about it?

  131. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    insignificant compared to the sun I think is the thinking.
    but its not in isolation.

  132. Luc Hansen (3,377) Says:

    Lucy, I understand scientists like Plimer doing as he is paid to do, but what’s your angle?

    And there is a consensus on global warming, a consensus that it is largely, this time, human induced, and that it is important that we do something. For some reason, flat-earthers see this as some sort of threat instead of the opportunity it can be.

    It’s the same with creationists. Something like 97% of scientists worldwide accept the evidence that life has evolved, not been created in stroke. Why go out on such a ridiculous limb of denial? Why not just accept the consensus and adapt?

    Your stance seems to be that today’s warming is part of normal planetary cycles, but, as I have pointed out above, 82% of climatologists agree it is not.

    And, what’s more, it appears we can largely avert mass population transfers, wars etc (although I doubt anything can save Kiribati) by taking some relatively simple actions while working hard on technology to replace the fossil fuels.

    The fact that there are some fringe benefits in the long run to certain lucky areas does not counter the overwhelmingly negative effect to the world as a whole.

    It seems, for you, very much a matter of: “Je sais bien, mais quand même…” and so catastrophe awaits…

    Finally, you misunderstand the point of the King Canute story. A frustrated Canute took his people down to the beach to show that he was NOT possessed of God-like powers and he could not, for example, turn back the tides. It was a training exercise for his staff on the limits of his powers.

  133. MikeNZ (3,234) Says:

    Luc where can i read your source data on the 97%
    I’ve looked at loads of that stuff the past 10 yrs and never has that figure every been shown as accurate.

    oh and while you’re at it the 82% as well
    as you’re iffy somewhere you’re bound to be iffy elsehwre, it’s the nature of your ideology.

    as for your manipulation of King Canute wtf is that all you can bring to the table?
    really that is so puerile, it wasn’t even funny.
    you should write to brian smaller he’s good at it.
    if you’re going to go down this route you’ll end up getting treated like philu.

  134. Luc Hansen (3,377) Says:

    Mike, I posted the link above, here is the relevant extract: In analyzing responses by sub-groups, Doran found that climatologists who are active in research showed the strongest consensus on the causes of global warming, with 97 percent agreeing humans play a role.

  135. Luc Hansen (3,377) Says:

    Oh, and I see it’s OK for your side to misrepresent history, myths or legends, but it’s not OK for me to set the record straight.

    Have I got that right?

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